Latest / Sunlight Matters / How LED Lighting Is Harming Humans With Professor Glen Jeffery

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How LED Lighting Is Harming Humans With Professor Glen Jeffery · Sunlight Matters

• 0:00
  Dave Wallace: You've just published a paper in Nature, and it really caught my eye.
• 0:04
  Dave Wallace: Could you just start by briefly introducing what the paper was about?
• 0:10
  Speaker: There has been concern for quite a while now that the lighting that we experience in the built environment at home and at work is affecting our health.
• 0:21
  Speaker: And I think a lot of that concern has been around light emitting diodes, LEDs.
• 0:26
  Speaker: LEDs now take over our world.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So what we did in a study was we went to University College London to a horrible building that had no windows that let in normal daylight.
• 0:39
  Speaker: Incredibly harsh LEDs and people working there eight hours a day.
• 0:44
  Speaker: And we tested their colour vision and then we walked back into that environment and we gave them old incandescent light bulbs that we left sitting around on their desks.
• 0:55
  Speaker: Now, old incandescent light bulbs are like sunlight, vast amount of infrared.
• 1:00
  Speaker: But we came back and we tested their vision, and there was a highly significant improvement in their vision.
• 1:07
  Speaker: Um, it really surprised us.
• 1:10
  Speaker: I mean, we were very surprised by the magnitude of the effect.
• 1:13
  Speaker: There's a package for health that is very obvious.
• 1:16
  Speaker: And it is public health, and it's small modifications that lead to improvements in public health improvements in health span.
• 1:26
  Speaker: I want to be 80 and still knocking around and having.
• 1:29
  Speaker: I'm not sure I care that much when I die, but I want to make sure that at least until that last five minutes before they put me in the coffin, I have a high quality of life.
• 1:39
  Speaker: That is, you know, that's paramount.
• 1:44
  Speaker: Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun.
• 1:49
  Speaker: Join us as we explore the power and influence of our star, the force at the heart of everything.
• 1:55
  Speaker: Each episode, we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.
• 2:02
  Dave Wallace: So, welcome back to the podcast, Glenn.
• 2:05
  Dave Wallace: Thank you so much.
• 2:06
  Dave Wallace: Uh, very short notice for coming on.
• 2:10
  Dave Wallace: Uh, you've just published a paper in Nature, and it really caught my eye, and I thought actually, it might be a great opportunity to kind of grab you while the ink is still fresh on the paper, so to speak, uh, and get you to just talk about the the the study that it talks about and some of the conclusions that that you reach from it.
• 2:34
  Dave Wallace: So I wonder, could you just start by briefly um introducing what the the the paper was about and and and the sort of headlines on the study, and and I guess what the hypothesis was that you were were trying to prove through through the work that you did.
• 2:51
  Glen Jeffery: Sure.
• 2:51
  Glen Jeffery: Thanks, Dave.
• 2:52
  Glen Jeffery: And and it's always a pleasure to come back to this site.
• 2:55
  Glen Jeffery: Um there has been concern for um quite a while now that the lighting that we experience um in the built environment at home and at work um is affecting our health.
• 3:09
  Glen Jeffery: And and it's been something that people have been very susceptible to and talked about, but not much has gone on about it.
• 3:16
  Glen Jeffery: And I think a lot of that concern has been around light-emitting diodes, LEDs.
• 3:22
  Glen Jeffery: LEDs now take over our world.
• 3:24
  Glen Jeffery: Um, and they're peculiar because they only give off light that we can see.
• 3:30
  Glen Jeffery: Yet there are other parts of light that we don't see, particularly towards the infrared, that have a profound role in health, including our blood sugars, our life expectancy, a whole range of things.
• 3:43
  Glen Jeffery: So, what we did in a study was we went to part of UCL, University College London, to a horrible building that had no windows that let in normal daylight.
• 3:57
  Glen Jeffery: In fact, we went to deep in the building and all they had was incredibly harsh LEDs and people working there, you know, eight hours a day, very often in winter, not going out for lunch.
• 4:10
  Glen Jeffery: And we tested their colour vision and looked fine.
• 4:14
  Glen Jeffery: And then we walked back into that environment and we gave them old incandescent light bulbs that we left sitting around on their desks.
• 4:23
  Glen Jeffery: Now, old incandescent light bulbs are like sunlight, they've got a vast amount of light in them that we don't see, a vast amount of infrared, and they are very much like daylight.
• 4:36
  Glen Jeffery: So we left these there and we said to people, you don't have to look at them, just move around them, go do what you want to do, go to the loo, have your lunch, just leave them as part of your world.
• 4:47
  Glen Jeffery: And we came back and we tested their vision, and there was a highly significant improvement in their vision.
• 4:55
  Glen Jeffery: Um, it really surprised us.
• 4:58
  Glen Jeffery: I mean, we were, I mean, we walked into that environment, we all agreed the environment, the light environment, was awful.
• 5:04
  Glen Jeffery: It looked awful.
• 5:06
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but we were very surprised by the magnitude of the effects.
• 5:10
  Glen Jeffery: And then what we did, we took the light bulbs away and we went back and tested them subsequently.
• 5:17
  Glen Jeffery: And the improvements that we got lasted much longer than we thought that they should do.
• 5:23
  Glen Jeffery: In fact, they lasted for getting on for a couple of months.
• 5:26
  Glen Jeffery: And the study stopped and came to an end because we hit Christmas and everybody went, everybody left, everybody went home, everybody had then had a very different light experience, everybody had too much to eat and too much to drink, so we stopped the study there.
• 5:41
  Glen Jeffery: So the key implication of this study is what we thought, perhaps going back previously, which is LED lighting is suppressing your metabolism, it is suppressing your physiology.
• 5:58
  Glen Jeffery: We chose the retina or visual system because it's easy to assess.
• 6:02
  Glen Jeffery: We can say, we can say, can you see this now?
• 6:04
  Glen Jeffery: Can you see this tomorrow?
• 6:05
  Glen Jeffery: Could you see this in the past?
• 6:07
  Glen Jeffery: We get hard numbers out of it.
• 6:09
  Glen Jeffery: But the same metrics we have there, other people have used with these lightings and said, Well, actually, look, this this lighting is shifting your blood sugars.
• 6:16
  Glen Jeffery: So it is a pretty hardcore, I think, well-controlled study that shows that LED lighting is having a damaging effect in suppressing, in this case specifically, suppressing your colour vision.
• 6:33
  Glen Jeffery: How many people have we got in the world where their ability to perceive colours correctly is critical to the functions that they perform in life?
• 6:44
  Glen Jeffery: Um, people who sit in worlds with no natural daylight.
• 6:49
  Glen Jeffery: I mean, the great thing about this building, uh, which I'll go on about because it's a most horrible building I've been in for ages, is the limited amount of glass it had, which was not in the environment where we worked, blocked all light that you couldn't see.
• 7:06
  Glen Jeffery: So the glass, it's not only the lighting that is our problem, it is the glass in buildings, because glass now blocks that infrared light that is critical for metabolic health.
• 7:21
  Glen Jeffery: If we take animals that have short lifespans, and we take them from an environment where they've got LEDs, because nearly all animals are in LED light environments as well, in animal houses, and we give them long-wave light, they live longer.
• 7:36
  Glen Jeffery: Their blood sugars are better, they have health, they're much greater health span.
• 7:40
  Glen Jeffery: So it's really important for the built environment that we have a wider spectrum of light.
• 7:48
  Glen Jeffery: And I must say, the people have really picked this up and are concerned are the architects and the lighting engineers.
• 7:55
  Glen Jeffery: They are sitting there thinking, are we going to get prosecuted for putting up a building which has been unhealthy and made you pre-diabetic?
• 8:04
  Glen Jeffery: That's a realistic question.
• 8:07
  Glen Jeffery: And it's interesting, they responded much faster than the medical profession.
• 8:11
  Glen Jeffery: Medical profession still has not really responded.
• 8:15
  Glen Jeffery: New Moorefield's Eye Hospital, you would think a great centre for light and looking after people's eyes.
• 8:22
  Glen Jeffery: All harsh white LEDs going in and all infrared blocking glass in the building.
• 8:30
  Glen Jeffery: So we're still not there yet.
• 8:34
  Dave Wallace: No, I mean, and and can I just quickly going back to I guess the the the um research itself, you were trying to make it much like a kind of working environment.
• 8:46
  Dave Wallace: Now, obviously, it was in in a basement, but it wasn't dressed up like a it was where people went to work, wasn't it?
• 8:54
  Glen Jeffery: It was the real world.
• 8:55
  Glen Jeffery: It was the real world.
• 8:56
  Glen Jeffery: So you could argue that the problem with this experiment was that um it wasn't super tightly controlled, but I don't want to do super tightly controlled experiments anymore.
• 9:05
  Glen Jeffery: I want to do experiments in the real world, real life experience.
• 9:10
  Glen Jeffery: And yeah, you're right.
• 9:11
  Glen Jeffery: We didn't say you've got to sit down in front of this light bulb for your working day.
• 9:15
  Glen Jeffery: It was just part of your world.
• 9:18
  Glen Jeffery: The LEDs were still there, but what we'd done was we'd put wavelengths of light in to counterbalance the negative effects of those LEDs.
• 9:28
  Glen Jeffery: So, real world, that's important, real world experience.
• 9:32
  Dave Wallace: So, and I mean, again, just uh, because I I noticed in the paper you mentioned that people's sort of access to sunlight was pretty limited as well, because you know, they were inside, like if they could go out, it was like for 15 minutes at lunchtime and things like that.
• 9:49
  Dave Wallace: So you kind of there was a degree of control around what you uh in terms of what you were sort of seeing from the participants as well.
• 10:00
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah, it was uh you could say it was a worst case scenario.
• 10:03
  Glen Jeffery: Um, it was an environment where, and we did this in in in early winter months, so the daylight was fairly restricted, but then it was a real-world experience.
• 10:14
  Glen Jeffery: So I said to them, how'd you get to work?
• 10:16
  Glen Jeffery: Well, you know, we get public transport.
• 10:18
  Glen Jeffery: Check the public transport, it's all LED lit.
• 10:21
  Glen Jeffery: Um they weren't getting a break from this, and I was then saying to them, what time are you leaving?
• 10:27
  Glen Jeffery: Oh, about 5.30.
• 10:28
  Glen Jeffery: And we checked all the weather reports.
• 10:30
  Glen Jeffery: They were leaving actually when it was dark.
• 10:33
  Glen Jeffery: So they got a bit of light in the mornings, um, but and I I actually I actually quantified the cloud cover.
• 10:41
  Glen Jeffery: Um they they were getting a little bit of light in the mornings, but it wasn't great.
• 10:47
  Glen Jeffery: But how many of us are like that?
• 10:49
  Glen Jeffery: In in winter months in the northern hemisphere, that's our life.
• 10:54
  Glen Jeffery: You know, the building yeah, the building I am in, okay, my office I've got, I don't have dominant LED lighting, but the majority of the building I am in is lit with harsh LED lighting because it's economic.
• 11:09
  Dave Wallace: Well, I I I think, I mean, what what the importance of of the reason, I mean, the result is is is I mean, in a way, when you talk about things being significant, it really makes me think, well, this is you know, you demonstrating in a kind of controlled way that this is very problematic.
• 11:31
  Dave Wallace: But I like the fact that you did it in kind of people's working days as well.
• 11:36
  Dave Wallace: Because as you say, like the majority of the working world uh across the world now sits in like poorly lit offices, and you know, we're I'm here at home, and actually I I've got a shouldn't say to you, but I've got a hue system here with so I'm under LED light behind uh IR blocking glass in front of me, and um, you know, I'll be going off for uh incandescent my incandescent sort of hit in the bit.
• 12:06
  Dave Wallace: You've got incandescent bulbs in the house.
• 12:09
  Dave Wallace: But the major this is the majority of people's lives now, isn't it?
• 12:14
  Glen Jeffery: Definitely, definitely.
• 12:15
  Glen Jeffery: Try and find uh try and you know, when you go to the shopping, uh, you know, when you when you go to shopping somewhere in the house, in your work environment, it is all LED lit.
• 12:28
  Glen Jeffery: And what I think we need to move towards ultimately is uh determining how much LED light you should be exposed to.
• 12:38
  Glen Jeffery: Now, this is not an insurmountable problem because looking at that study, what we did show was we showed that the LED was damaging your visual health, but at the same time, we brought something in to counterbalance it.
• 12:54
  Glen Jeffery: So that doesn't mean necessarily that we've got to go into an environment and strip out all the LEDs.
• 13:00
  Glen Jeffery: We don't have to do that.
• 13:03
  Glen Jeffery: We have to be very careful in how many LEDs we use, and then we have to introduce other lighting systems that balance it.
• 13:11
  Glen Jeffery: So we are not talking about rewiring buildings, but we're talking about very careful consideration of the quality of light that we have in there.
• 13:22
  Glen Jeffery: And maybe we can bring that in by just having just what I have got, an angle poise lamp with an old incandescent light bulb in it.
• 13:30
  Glen Jeffery: That's good enough.
• 13:32
  Dave Wallace: But I I mean, at the same token, you've got incandescents, you know, we can still buy them.
• 13:37
  Dave Wallace: There's places around the world where you can't buy them.
• 13:39
  Dave Wallace: And I think in some countries they're even illegal to own incandescent bulbs.
• 13:44
  Dave Wallace: So, um, but but there is you, you know, here in the UK, we're kind of like using up reserves.
• 13:50
  Dave Wallace: There isn't people manufacturing incandescent bulbs, and that feels like that might be something that has to be rethought, you know, because um, like you say, the the maybe what you go for is a kind of mixture of lighting between LED and incandescence.
• 14:08
  Dave Wallace: But but it just requires a wholesale rethinking of lighting, doesn't it, from a kind of policy level, I guess.
• 14:16
  Glen Jeffery: Absolutely.
• 14:16
  Glen Jeffery: And, you know, we do have a few meetings coming up with policy makers in this field.
• 14:23
  Glen Jeffery: Um and then, you know, there are ways around this if you think about things.
• 14:27
  Glen Jeffery: So everyone goes, the first reaction is we can't go back to incandescent, it uses too much energy.
• 14:33
  Glen Jeffery: Well, actually, if you take an old incandescent light bulb and you take a dimmer switch, which costs $9.95 off Amazon, um, if you turn the light down, you're turning the visual light down, but you're not turning the infrared light down anywhere near as much.
• 14:54
  Glen Jeffery: So you can just turn it down and you're not going to increase your electricity bills that much.
• 15:01
  Glen Jeffery: There are intelligent, intelligent ways around this.
• 15:04
  Glen Jeffery: So we mustn't take polar views about it.
• 15:07
  Glen Jeffery: We mustn't say strip it all out.
• 15:09
  Glen Jeffery: Um there's an intelligent approach that we can get.
• 15:13
  Glen Jeffery: Now, we also got positive effects by taking old old LED light bulbs, pulling them apart, and putting an infrared um LED into it.
• 15:26
  Glen Jeffery: Right.
• 15:27
  Glen Jeffery: Now, that produced an improvement, but the improvement was nowhere near as good as the improvement with a full spectrum incandescent light bulb.
• 15:39
  Glen Jeffery: And I think people should also be very aware because there is a lot of adverts out there for full spectrum lighting, and I've yet to test one that is full spectrum lighting.
• 15:50
  Glen Jeffery: Um, it depends how you define it, but it's not sunlight.
• 15:53
  Glen Jeffery: So just an incandescent light bulb.
• 15:56
  Glen Jeffery: We can still buy them, as you say.
• 15:58
  Glen Jeffery: Um, we're not allowed to put them in new builds.
• 16:01
  Glen Jeffery: Um they're still they're still out there um under the name of either incandescent or halogen bulbs.
• 16:08
  Glen Jeffery: Right.
• 16:09
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but America is banning them.
• 16:11
  Glen Jeffery: And there is a campaign now in America to try and try and change that.
• 16:16
  Glen Jeffery: I'm not sure it's got a lot of traction at the moment.
• 16:19
  Glen Jeffery: I hope our research can contribute towards that, but we're lucky here.
• 16:24
  Glen Jeffery: European legislation is definitely moving towards a complete ban.
• 16:28
  Glen Jeffery: So it's a fight that it's a fight I think we'll win.
• 16:33
  Glen Jeffery: It's just going to take a bit of energy to get there.
• 16:36
  Dave Wallace: But I but I think, you know, the I mean, just not to sort of I guess skate over the consequences of this.
• 16:44
  Dave Wallace: So, you know, to in my head, actually spending a bit of money on an incandescent bulb and the energy used for it is a fraction of the healthcare costs of looking for someone with after someone with diabetes or you know, some other metabolic disease or you you know macular degeneration or whatever it is, you know.
• 17:05
  Dave Wallace: So the preventative side of all of this stuff is I I think far outweighs the costs of um of the damage that could be done.
• 17:16
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• 17:24
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• 17:38
  Glen Jeffery: Completely, totally agree with you, but you need a politician to sit back and grab the big picture.
• 17:45
  Glen Jeffery: These problems are not the problems for today's politicians, they're the problems that will be generated for tomorrow's politicians.
• 17:52
  Glen Jeffery: And you know, most politicians just care about what's going to be on the front page of the Daily Mail tomorrow.
• 17:58
  Glen Jeffery: They don't see the long the longer run.
• 18:00
  Glen Jeffery: But you know, the one I really love and I go back to a lot, which is go back to your older hospital that didn't have infrared blocking glass.
• 18:09
  Glen Jeffery: Everybody knew that you got patients out of bed earlier if their bed was by a window.
• 18:18
  Glen Jeffery: That's telling you something about daylight.
• 18:21
  Glen Jeffery: Now think about bed blocking.
• 18:23
  Glen Jeffery: I mean, we're talking to critical care units.
• 18:26
  Glen Jeffery: How much does it cost to keep someone in a critical care unit for 24 hours?
• 18:33
  Glen Jeffery: It's thousands.
• 18:35
  Glen Jeffery: So that it's costing the taxpayer thousands.
• 18:38
  Glen Jeffery: And at the same time, the person, the person, we could get that person out of that bed earlier.
• 18:44
  Glen Jeffery: Do we really care about the price of a light bulb?
• 18:47
  Glen Jeffery: You know, let's get let's get the big picture here.
• 18:50
  Glen Jeffery: Um and you know, I think people have people have started to listen, but they need direction from those that establish standards.
• 19:02
  Glen Jeffery: They need direction.
• 19:03
  Glen Jeffery: So, you know, I raised this point where I work partly at Moorefield's Eye Hospital, and they're saying, well, the um the system doesn't allow this.
• 19:14
  Glen Jeffery: You know, that the standards state A, B, and C.
• 19:18
  Glen Jeffery: They do not state D.
• 19:19
  Glen Jeffery: So we have to influence policymakers.
• 19:22
  Glen Jeffery: That's that's a real big issue.
• 19:25
  Dave Wallace: I mean, uh you we've talked about this before, like scurvy, I guess you've got smoking.
• 19:31
  Dave Wallace: You recently mentioned asbestos as well.
• 19:34
  Dave Wallace: And I think, you know, what do they all have in common is it took a long time for you know, the the science was there and obvious.
• 19:42
  Dave Wallace: It just took a long time for policymakers to kind of catch up with all of this stuff.
• 19:47
  Dave Wallace: I I think in in this instance, what I just sort of beggars belief, why can't the why can't people learn from these mistakes?
• 19:56
  Dave Wallace: You know, I mean I mentioned to you that I unfortunately I had personal experience.
• 19:59
  Dave Wallace: Experience of asbestos because my mum died of mesothelioma.
• 20:04
  Dave Wallace: I mean, she lived the healthiest life ever, but somewhere along the line, she got a small particle of asbestos in her lungs, and that caused cancer.
• 20:15
  Dave Wallace: And um, you know, so I I know from personal that if you get this stuff wrong, it ends up with ill and frankly dead people.
• 20:25
  Dave Wallace: And you know, as a society, like I think you mention it specifically in your paper about care homes and people at the you know who need kind of looking after, like giving them sort of light as a nutrition, like with incandescence will probably improve their sort of health and you know, probably improve their well-being as well, won't it?
• 20:51
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Glen Jeffery: I have, and I'm not the only one, I have been banging my head against the wall regarding care homes.
• 20:58
  Glen Jeffery: Really banging my head against the wall.
• 21:01
  Glen Jeffery: We can all the animal studies show us that older debilitated animals, we can get them moving much more efficiently if we give them the right spectra of light.
• 21:14
  Glen Jeffery: So we've got these people who, you know, when they're in a care home, they have limited mobility, which means they have a chance that they might fall and break their hip, which in many cases that becomes fatal because they're put flat in a bed and they get pneumonia and they die.
• 21:29
  Glen Jeffery: Their quality of life is absolutely rock bottom and they lose control of their blood sugars.
• 21:35
  Glen Jeffery: What is it all about?
• 21:37
  Glen Jeffery: Well, a big fraction of this is about light.
• 21:41
  Glen Jeffery: We can walk into environments, all the science is there, we can put a light bulb in, and we can improve the quality of people's lives.
• 21:54
  Glen Jeffery: It is, as I say, I'm I am not the only one.
• 21:59
  Glen Jeffery: Many of us are banging our heads against a wall.
• 22:03
  Glen Jeffery: You know, if my if my mother were in a nursing home, I would be, I would be in there.
• 22:09
  Glen Jeffery: So, you know, I do with an angle poise lamp and an incandescent bar.
• 22:14
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah, well, actually, you don't even have to have an angle poise.
• 22:18
  Glen Jeffery: You can go to IKEA and buy one of these cheap little bendy things, right?
• 22:21
  Glen Jeffery: Just, you know, something's like 10 10 pounds and put an incandescent, which is what I've done with my aging aunts and my aging uncles.
• 22:30
  Dave Wallace: That's amazing.
• 22:31
  Dave Wallace: Well, I I I did it for my son.
• 22:33
  Dave Wallace: I sent him off to university with an incandescent bulb.
• 22:36
  Dave Wallace: And I am pleased to report, like, his health seems to be like he's not a sports person, he's not outside, but he seems to be on a level.
• 22:45
  Dave Wallace: So, you know, I'm I'm seeing the positive results of just like, you know, we've replaced a lot of our bulbs with incandescence.
• 22:54
  Dave Wallace: The amount of illness in the family uh has kind of dropped off.
• 22:59
  Dave Wallace: So there's something going on, which I think is really interesting.
• 23:03
  Dave Wallace: Yeah.
• 23:03
  Dave Wallace: I have to ask a question like you, because you talk about LED suppressing metabolic health.
• 23:11
  Dave Wallace: If I did I did I get that right, or is that sort of No, no, that that that that is right.
• 23:15
  Glen Jeffery: So if we if we take the wavelengths of light in LEDs and we put animals under those wavelengths, they become pre-diabetic.
• 23:26
  Glen Jeffery: That's a metabolic thing.
• 23:28
  Glen Jeffery: So that is that is clear.
• 23:30
  Glen Jeffery: And if you dig through the evidence, it is clear that you get a similar pattern in humans.
• 23:37
  Glen Jeffery: All right?
• 23:38
  Glen Jeffery: Now, what's that costing the NHS?
• 23:40
  Glen Jeffery: It's costing us fortune.
• 23:42
  Glen Jeffery: Absolute fortune.
• 23:44
  Glen Jeffery: This time of year, people are spending more time inside, they become relatively sedentary.
• 23:50
  Glen Jeffery: Um, you know, over the Christmas period, they've consumed too much.
• 23:54
  Glen Jeffery: This is just this is just ridiculous.
• 23:57
  Glen Jeffery: You know, I it is it seems to me to be ridiculous that we we're not getting traction on it.
• 24:04
  Dave Wallace: So I mean, I think it's all up to all of us to kind of do what we can in terms of sort of banging the drum around this thing.
• 24:11
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
• 24:11
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah, definitely.
• 24:12
  Glen Jeffery: Definitely.
• 24:14
  Dave Wallace: I and I I sort of puzzle over it because I like we do I I think we we sort of talked briefly, and I know on the Huberman podcast you talked about the the the people getting dogs.
• 24:26
  Dave Wallace: I mean, I think like getting outside, like walking, all of this other stuff, but yeah, yeah, you know, is kind of super critical as well.
• 24:34
  Dave Wallace: Because I I guess the thing with incandescence, and I get going back to LED being narrow spectrum, that incandescents create light from heat.
• 24:44
  Dave Wallace: So what you then end up with broad spectrum.
• 24:46
  Dave Wallace: And I what one of the questions is is do you understand is it wavelengths in the incandescent, or is it the because you got and you've kind of mentioned this because of the uh infrared LEDs, but is it do you understand the sort of what's going on from a broad spectrum perspective in terms of the impact it might be having?
• 25:07
  Glen Jeffery: I I think from the science perspective, we're we're we're pretty much there now.
• 25:12
  Glen Jeffery: Sort of, you know, we're we're dealing with we're dealing with entities called mitochondria that generate energy, and the right kind of light improves the energy you produce, wrong kind of light reduces the energy.
• 25:25
  Glen Jeffery: I think we're pretty much there now.
• 25:27
  Glen Jeffery: So when we talk, and and I know you've spoken to Bob Fosbury, who's a big pusher in the physics of this, um, when we talk, we're all sitting there saying, okay, we know enough.
• 25:38
  Glen Jeffery: We know enough to feel that we're not idiots.
• 25:41
  Glen Jeffery: We know enough to say, now's the time to talk.
• 25:45
  Glen Jeffery: Now's the time.
• 25:46
  Glen Jeffery: So I'm hoping that somewhere out in the world there is some senior civil servant in the Department of Health who's who's watching this, who will then stroll into work and say, how many millions can we save by changing lighting?
• 26:03
  Glen Jeffery: He can think about money.
• 26:05
  Glen Jeffery: I'm thinking about quality of life.
• 26:08
  Glen Jeffery: Um, that is the kind of person we need to get hold of.
• 26:12
  Glen Jeffery: The science is there, and it's been driven by Bob Fosbury, an atmospheric physicist.
• 26:19
  Glen Jeffery: Um, so why are we waiting?
• 26:23
  Dave Wallace: Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely I mean, you know, if any MPs end up listening to this, I mean, you could you could make a name for yourself by actually taking up this taking up this cause.
• 26:34
  Dave Wallace: Because I mean, what better thing is there to sort of actually change the health of a nation by Yeah, yeah.
• 26:43
  Glen Jeffery: I I don't want to make a name for myself.
• 26:44
  Glen Jeffery: I quite like to drift to the back.
• 26:46
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but I do I must end up.
• 26:49
  Dave Wallace: Sorry, you shouldn't then be appearing on Huberman's podcast.
• 26:54
  Glen Jeffery: Fortunately, I'm not recognized walking down the street.
• 26:57
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but I do have a meeting with an MP next week.
• 27:01
  Dave Wallace: Great, great, great, great.
• 27:02
  Glen Jeffery: Um, so so just crawl up that wall.
• 27:06
  Glen Jeffery: Just crawl up that wall until someone notices you.
• 27:09
  Glen Jeffery: That's what that's the philosophy.
• 27:12
  Dave Wallace: So, I mean, one question on like I think you again you mentioned about the industry, and there's lots of people with IR panels and IR light.
• 27:23
  Dave Wallace: And have you got any thoughts on dosage at all?
• 27:28
  Glen Jeffery: Like well, dosage, dosage was a conversation with Bob Fosbury at about nine o'clock this morning because we're talking about it all the time.
• 27:37
  Glen Jeffery: Uh, these panels are producing far too much light, far too much light.
• 27:42
  Glen Jeffery: And we're sitting here thinking this is going to cause a problem in the end.
• 27:48
  Glen Jeffery: Why is it with all these panels that, okay, you sit there, let's just say, for argument's sake, the first 10 minutes is okay.
• 27:56
  Glen Jeffery: But we know from the research that if you sit in front of that panel too much, the effect goes.
• 28:03
  Glen Jeffery: Right?
• 28:03
  Glen Jeffery: It just it just goes.
• 28:05
  Glen Jeffery: And what we know is got pretty sure is going on is that the metabolic system is getting clogged up with too much energy.
• 28:12
  Glen Jeffery: So, particularly these face masks and these big whole body panels, um, of which we pulled apart a few.
• 28:21
  Glen Jeffery: First of all, they're unbelievably overpriced for what they are.
• 28:25
  Glen Jeffery: Uh, you know, a a thousand pounds worth of panel has probably gotten 15 pounds worth of product in it.
• 28:31
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but they're producing too much energy.
• 28:35
  Glen Jeffery: Your body is not used to getting a vast wall of energy, that deep red energy.
• 28:44
  Glen Jeffery: The the first the first couple of minutes may be really good, um, but after that, no, you are challenging your metabolism um by overloading it.
• 28:56
  Dave Wallace: That's really interesting because again, this was why I wanted to talk to you about the research that you've done, because it's proper science.
• 29:06
  Dave Wallace: And I sort of feel like when you look at a lot of what's out there, people are not being led by science, they're being led by commercial opportunities.
• 29:17
  Glen Jeffery: Definitely, definitely.
• 29:19
  Glen Jeffery: I I deal with I I had said we'll I'll answer emails.
• 29:24
  Glen Jeffery: I deal with walls of emails from people who say, I've got this device, is it gonna work?
• 29:29
  Glen Jeffery: Well, I can't answer.
• 29:32
  Glen Jeffery: Um, because unless I have that device in the lab and we pull it apart and spend a day looking at it, um, I can't really answer.
• 29:39
  Glen Jeffery: But the vast majority of devices that we have looked at are of extremely poor quality and very high price.
• 29:50
  Glen Jeffery: Um, and you know, and the you say to people, well, actually, it's kicking out too much energy.
• 29:55
  Glen Jeffery: And then a manufacturer will say, Well, if I've got a device with a dim red light and a device with a bright red light, everybody's gonna buy the bright red light.
• 30:03
  Glen Jeffery: No one's gonna buy the dim.
• 30:04
  Glen Jeffery: And I get that, I understand that, I understand the sales pitch.
• 30:09
  Glen Jeffery: But the point is they're producing too much energy.
• 30:12
  Glen Jeffery: What happens to, and I don't know the answer to this, what happens to the lady who buys a face mask, uses it quite heavily?
• 30:21
  Glen Jeffery: What happens in five years' time?
• 30:23
  Glen Jeffery: I don't know.
• 30:25
  Glen Jeffery: I just don't know.
• 30:26
  Glen Jeffery: But I am cautious enough to say, I know you're jet that's generating too much energy, and I know that your metabolism is going to struggle to cope with that.
• 30:36
  Glen Jeffery: I do not know what the consequences are.
• 30:40
  Dave Wallace: It's again, I mean, great.
• 30:43
  Dave Wallace: I mean, it's great to what I love about you, Glenn, is you're uh you speak the truth as you as you see it, you know, and I think uh you know it's in it's great to kind of have that, and I'll be telling my wife to take that face mask off later because uh she got one for Christmas.
• 31:03
  Dave Wallace: So um, no, it's it's it's it's really, really interesting.
• 31:08
  Dave Wallace: I I mean one thing that I wanted to ask you was about sunlight.
• 31:14
  Dave Wallace: Um and you know, one of the things I did last year was to try and get out a bit more in the mornings, and you know, and I I really do feel it kind of made a difference to me.
• 31:28
  Dave Wallace: So decided to try and go a bit more hardcore this year and and follow the sun's pattern if I can, just to you know, and I need to kind of think about what could I measure in order to sort of see what impact that would have.
• 31:44
  Dave Wallace: So, you know, I'm talking about like four, four in the morning, I could I guess in the middle of summer getting up and getting the dogs out.
• 31:52
  Dave Wallace: Um for for me, just as a sort of citizen scientist, is there anything that I could do just to kind of measure um simply like the impact that might have on me?
• 32:05
  Glen Jeffery: No, and but it's a really important question.
• 32:08
  Glen Jeffery: So people will say, How do I know?
• 32:10
  Glen Jeffery: How do I know?
• 32:11
  Glen Jeffery: And I'm struggling to find a metric that you yourself have access to.
• 32:17
  Glen Jeffery: So I can I can improve all your blood sugars, right, with light, but you're unaware of it.
• 32:23
  Glen Jeffery: You know, you don't, okay, when you're when your blood sugars crash, you're aware of that, but you're not aware of when your blood sugars reach dangerous levels.
• 32:32
  Glen Jeffery: Much of what I think we do has a prophylactic angle.
• 32:36
  Glen Jeffery: It's preventing things happening that's negative in the future.
• 32:40
  Glen Jeffery: Um I know that there are some people, um, I mean some people at Westminster University who are looking at a whole load of markers in the blood.
• 32:50
  Glen Jeffery: Um will there be a time when, for instance, you can prick your finger and go, oh look, something's a hell of a lot better here?
• 32:58
  Glen Jeffery: Um that will come, but I don't know what the I don't know what it is.
• 33:03
  Glen Jeffery: So with the with the red light or the incandescent light and improving vision.
• 33:09
  Glen Jeffery: Most people come away from that and they can't really tell the difference.
• 33:14
  Glen Jeffery: When when I'm when I test them, I can see the difference.
• 33:18
  Glen Jeffery: Right.
• 33:19
  Glen Jeffery: A few people come along and say, oh, you know, the curtain's moving in a slightly different way.
• 33:24
  Glen Jeffery: I think Bob Fosbury did that.
• 33:26
  Glen Jeffery: Um, but it's there when you test it.
• 33:29
  Glen Jeffery: It's there when you test it.
• 33:31
  Glen Jeffery: And I've got big advantages of working with vision, but I've also got big negatives.
• 33:35
  Glen Jeffery: So you can lose vast amounts of your vision, say, for instance, in glaucoma, where you lose your peripheral vision, you don't even know it's gone.
• 33:45
  Glen Jeffery: You start to register you've got a problem when you bump into the coffee table when you walk past it.
• 33:51
  Glen Jeffery: And that's because whatever is happening in your eye, your brain is constantly recorrecting it to take things back to where they were before.
• 34:00
  Glen Jeffery: You can test it and you say, I know, I know that's better, I know that's worse.
• 34:04
  Glen Jeffery: But for the person, very often they're largely unaware.
• 34:10
  Glen Jeffery: If I can find that, if I can find that thing that says, you now tie up your shoelaces three seconds faster, I'll find it and and and I'll tell people about it.
• 34:20
  Dave Wallace: No, it's it's it's really interesting.
• 34:23
  Dave Wallace: I mean, I I think one of the things is just to kind of check inside yourself and say, like, do I feel better?
• 34:30
  Dave Wallace: Like, I think feeling better is a it's quite a difficult thing though to measure, isn't it?
• 34:36
  Glen Jeffery: Exactly.
• 34:36
  Glen Jeffery: And we and and the the the reason why I did the study that we did in changing the light bulbs is it's hard science.
• 34:47
  Dave Wallace: Yes.
• 34:47
  Glen Jeffery: You know, it's a number.
• 34:49
  Glen Jeffery: Here is a number, and it's different on this day after this experience than it was before.
• 34:54
  Glen Jeffery: And if we're going to get people to believe hard-nosed civil servants, people in charge, they've got to they can't have the I feel better phenomena.
• 35:05
  Glen Jeffery: Whether that's true or not true, they can't have it.
• 35:08
  Dave Wallace: Yeah, I I I totally, totally agree.
• 35:10
  Dave Wallace: I think it's really, it's really interesting.
• 35:13
  Dave Wallace: So, so what's next?
• 35:14
  Dave Wallace: I mean, you you've this is a kind of I feel a groundbreaking piece of research, which I think proves a lot of what you've been thinking and hypothesizing, and you know, you and Bob sort of chatting about.
• 35:28
  Dave Wallace: So uh have you got anything that you're kind of lining up for future research as well?
• 35:33
  Glen Jeffery: Well, we you know, the the the the the kettle is still the kettle's still on.
• 35:37
  Glen Jeffery: Um, so we've got a whole load of stuff looking at, for instance, how long does it take for that incandescent light bulb to improve your vision?
• 35:48
  Glen Jeffery: Uh, what's the time course?
• 35:50
  Glen Jeffery: And actually, I have to say, it's shockingly brief.
• 35:54
  Glen Jeffery: We put light bulbs in for a couple of weeks.
• 35:57
  Glen Jeffery: We're now seeing changes in people um uh within an hour of introducing different lighting into the room.
• 36:06
  Dave Wallace: Wow.
• 36:06
  Glen Jeffery: And I've gone out and I've gone out and said to uh uh this is this is a guy called Mark Mark Robinson, who's a graduate student in the lab.
• 36:13
  Glen Jeffery: And I said, Mark, can you do all this again, please?
• 36:16
  Glen Jeffery: Um let's let's let's make sure we get this one right.
• 36:20
  Glen Jeffery: But it is it is clear the effect can be corrected relatively easily, and the effect can be corrected relatively quickly.
• 36:32
  Glen Jeffery: Okay, so what about that person when that person comes out of the operating theater after a big operation?
• 36:38
  Glen Jeffery: Could it be the case that they only need an hour of an incandescent light bulb to support their metabolism, right?
• 36:46
  Glen Jeffery: One of the worst light environments on the planet is an operating theatre, right?
• 36:52
  Glen Jeffery: Very rarely have they got windows, they've all got harsh LED lighting.
• 36:56
  Glen Jeffery: You walk in there and you think, oh God, it's like being on a stage in a plant.
• 37:00
  Glen Jeffery: Where did all this come from?
• 37:02
  Glen Jeffery: And those people in that environment are there, you know, they can be there for hours and hours and hours.
• 37:09
  Glen Jeffery: And you know, the great thing about our NHS NHS is it's fantastic.
• 37:14
  Glen Jeffery: People are dedicated to it.
• 37:16
  Glen Jeffery: And I know of some surgeons that sit in that environment a hell of a lot longer than eight hours a day.
• 37:22
  Glen Jeffery: Um, so yeah, maybe just an incandescent light bulb in the recovery room might be enough.
• 37:31
  Glen Jeffery: You know, as as as I say, as I say all the time, if this is a load of rubbish, okay, I'm an idiot, but it hasn't cost you any money.
• 37:41
  Glen Jeffery: You know?
• 37:42
  Glen Jeffery: Um I like.
• 37:44
  Dave Wallace: But I I think what you're proving is that there is uh this isn't a load of rubbish.
• 37:49
  Dave Wallace: And I I mean when you actually I I guess what I've sort of done is I've sort of sat back and thought about it and you go, well, it's obvious, isn't it?
• 37:58
  Dave Wallace: Of course we've kind of got a connection to to light and sunlight and broad spectrum light because we've lived most of our histories outside, haven't we?
• 38:08
  Dave Wallace: So um you know, it would be almost surprising that we have.
• 38:13
  Dave Wallace: I guess the big surprise is we haven't really thought about this until fairly recently.
• 38:18
  Glen Jeffery: No, I you know, this is the thing that is really striking and is a problem about resistance.
• 38:24
  Glen Jeffery: People are saying, well, hang on, we've we've we've we've had these uh LEDs, you know, since 2000, 2005.
• 38:31
  Glen Jeffery: We're not dropping dead.
• 38:32
  Glen Jeffery: What's the problem?
• 38:33
  Glen Jeffery: Yeah, and and and and and and then where are you coming from with these odd comments about LEDs?
• 38:40
  Glen Jeffery: You know, we're all we're all happy.
• 38:42
  Glen Jeffery: Um that's quite something to try and overcome, you know, um resistance.
• 38:49
  Glen Jeffery: And that's not only resistance from the industry, it's resistance from public perception.
• 38:54
  Glen Jeffery: The public aren't really aware.
• 38:57
  Glen Jeffery: Um, the consequences are not here yet.
• 39:01
  Dave Wallace: I'm uh actually chatting to Anne Levine, who wrote a book Incandescent next week.
• 39:06
  Dave Wallace: And you know, she's fascinating because she kind of lays out what happened in the lighting industry um and that move to sort of LED LEDs and away from incandescence.
• 39:18
  Dave Wallace: And at no point did anyone think about the kind of health consequences of all of this stuff.
• 39:24
  Dave Wallace: It wasn't even factored in.
• 39:26
  Glen Jeffery: No.
• 39:26
  Glen Jeffery: No.
• 39:27
  Glen Jeffery: And superficially, why should it be?
• 39:29
  Glen Jeffery: Yes, superficially, you know, it you know, it do even, you know, vast majority of the scientists.
• 39:36
  Glen Jeffery: Why should it be?
• 39:37
  Glen Jeffery: We've got more light and it's cheaper.
• 39:39
  Glen Jeffery: It's not costing us anything when we move to an LED.
• 39:42
  Glen Jeffery: But we just didn't understand the light we don't see, but our bodies in different ways perceive.
• 39:51
  Glen Jeffery: My uh my mitochondria in my body are aware of of.
• 39:59
  Glen Jeffery: Long wavelength, deep infrared light.
• 40:02
  Glen Jeffery: That light goes through your body.
• 40:04
  Glen Jeffery: I can measure it coming out the other side.
• 40:07
  Glen Jeffery: And it influences them even at very, very low concentrations.
• 40:12
  Glen Jeffery: So yeah.
• 40:14
  Glen Jeffery: How do we get across public perception?
• 40:17
  Dave Wallace: No, I well, I look, I think it's like one of those problems you go back to asbestos and scurvy and smoking is because the problems don't come for a little while.
• 40:27
  Dave Wallace: So you know, the problem with the LED thing is it's sort of, you know, we're we're only a decade into the journey, really, or a couple of decades into the journey.
• 40:37
  Dave Wallace: What are we seeing is where we're seeing metabolic diseases increasing, you know, and certain cancers increasing.
• 40:44
  Dave Wallace: And I I mean, like we talk places like the Middle East, they have diabetes rates which are absolutely astronomical.
• 40:53
  Dave Wallace: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:54
  Dave Wallace: You know, and what's the common, what's the common kind of denominator across all of this?
• 41:01
  Dave Wallace: Inside time, behind glass, under LED light.
• 41:06
  Dave Wallace: Yeah.
• 41:06
  Dave Wallace: Eating probably ultra pro you know, so yeah.
• 41:10
  Dave Wallace: I mean, all of this stuff must be kind of work.
• 41:12
  Dave Wallace: I mean, you you I I do wonder if you could ask a mitochondria what's going on, they'd go, none of it's good, is it?
• 41:21
  Glen Jeffery: There's um there's a great study uh undertaken in Papua New Guinea where um the diets of the people are almost pure carbohydrate.
• 41:32
  Glen Jeffery: Um, you know, so you look at them and you think, well, you know, diabetes should be rampant.
• 41:37
  Glen Jeffery: These people live fundamentally outside.
• 41:40
  Dave Wallace: Yeah.
• 41:40
  Glen Jeffery: There is no significant history of diabetes in that population.
• 41:44
  Glen Jeffery: You know, they they they have firelight, they live outside.
• 41:49
  Glen Jeffery: Um it's telling you something.
• 41:52
  Glen Jeffery: I mean, you can argue, well, maybe they're all genetically different.
• 41:55
  Glen Jeffery: Well, that's possible, but then let's stack up the evidence.
• 41:58
  Glen Jeffery: Where's all this different evidence coming from?
• 42:00
  Glen Jeffery: And that is great.
• 42:01
  Glen Jeffery: And then on the on the alternative side, you look at the Gulf, you look at Saudi Arabia, highest incidence of diabetes.
• 42:09
  Glen Jeffery: They never go out in sunlight.
• 42:12
  Glen Jeffery: They have got artificial lighting, they've got infrared blocking glass to keep their wind to keep their environment cool.
• 42:19
  Glen Jeffery: Uh, let's look at those two extremes.
• 42:21
  Glen Jeffery: There's something going on there.
• 42:23
  Glen Jeffery: Um, and the whole of the Gulf has got that problem.
• 42:26
  Glen Jeffery: Kuwait's got that problem.
• 42:27
  Glen Jeffery: We've been out there talking to them about it.
• 42:29
  Glen Jeffery: Uh, all of the Gulf.
• 42:30
  Dave Wallace: Isn't it 40% or something like the rate of diabetes in Kuwait?
• 42:34
  Glen Jeffery: I mean, it's yeah, it's something like that.
• 42:36
  Glen Jeffery: Pre-diabetes isn't, they've got this massive, massive diabetes research institute.
• 42:41
  Glen Jeffery: There's not a lot going on in it yet, but the government acknowledge that they've got a ticking time bomb with diabetes, and they are not sure what to grab hold of.
• 42:53
  Glen Jeffery: There's one or two very smart scientists there that are actually raising the flag about light.
• 42:58
  Glen Jeffery: Um, and I know, I know one of them is in the medical school, and she's got one, uh she's got one lecture theatre for one group of students with incandescent light bulbs in it, and another lecture theatre with the LEDs.
• 43:12
  Glen Jeffery: And I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
• 43:15
  Dave Wallace: Amazing.
• 43:16
  Dave Wallace: No, that sounds great.
• 43:17
  Dave Wallace: I mean, and I think, you know, obviously your focus is on, you know, eyes because of your background, but I guess anyone from the scientific community who's listening to this who I mean, to me it would make sense to like take the work you've done and then maybe look at Dart.
• 43:36
  Dave Wallace: So do you sort of feed people Big Macs for uh as part of the process?
• 43:42
  Dave Wallace: I mean, and I know that's not eyes, you're probably looking at blood blood glucose levels and things like that, but you you know, there's obvious things that you could do to build on this, to kind of basically look at the real relationship between light, food, and all of these other bits and pieces, isn't there?
• 43:58
  Dave Wallace: Yeah, yeah, and and yes, I completely agree.
• 44:03
  Glen Jeffery: There's a package for health that is very obvious, and it is public health.
• 44:08
  Glen Jeffery: And it's small modifications that lead to improvements in public health improvements in health span.
• 44:16
  Glen Jeffery: I I want, you know, I want to be 80 and still knocking around and having, I'm not sure I care that much when I die, but I want to make sure that at least until that last five minutes before they put me in the coffin, I have a high quality of life.
• 44:31
  Glen Jeffery: That is, you know, that that's paramount.
• 44:35
  Dave Wallace: Well, and I think you so, you know, was it Alistair Nunn talking about morbidity, compression, and all that whole notion of okay, we're living longer, but we're not living healthier lives.
• 44:45
  Glen Jeffery: We're not.
• 44:45
  Glen Jeffery: We are not.
• 44:47
  Dave Wallace: That thought makes me very depressed, you know.
• 44:50
  Dave Wallace: So um, I mean, so anyway, well, listen, thank you so much because I think we've covered a lot of ground.
• 44:57
  Dave Wallace: I feel like you've completely demystified the research paper.
• 45:01
  Dave Wallace: I mean, I would encourage people to actually read it.
• 45:04
  Dave Wallace: Um, you know, now they could probably start with listening to the podcast, then have a look at the paper because I think it kind of really brings it to life.
• 45:12
  Dave Wallace: But it's a very impressive piece of work.
• 45:15
  Glen Jeffery: I want, I wrote certainly the abstract and the introduction of that paper with the idea in mind, could my mum get it?
• 45:25
  Dave Wallace: Yeah.
• 45:25
  Glen Jeffery: Right?
• 45:25
  Glen Jeffery: My mum's my mum's just a housewife.
• 45:29
  Glen Jeffery: Could my mum get it?
• 45:31
  Glen Jeffery: Because as I've said before, it's all about communication now.
• 45:35
  Glen Jeffery: Everything is about communication.
• 45:37
  Glen Jeffery: Um, hopefully they'll get the abstract, hopefully they'll get the introduction.
• 45:43
  Glen Jeffery: That's good enough.
• 45:45
  Dave Wallace: I think they will.
• 45:45
  Dave Wallace: I think they will.
• 45:46
  Dave Wallace: But it's I love the protocol, I love the descriptions of how you went about it.
• 45:51
  Dave Wallace: There's some very interesting photos as well.
• 45:54
  Dave Wallace: So, you know, I think it's brilliant.
• 45:56
  Dave Wallace: So thank you so much, and uh look forward to seeing what your next project is as well.
• 46:01
  Dave Wallace: Thank you, Dave.
• 46:03
  Glen Jeffery: Thank you for helping to publicise it.
• 46:08
  Dave Wallace: Thanks for listening to Sunlight Matters, brought to you by Shadow Man, where we explore how sunlight influences the way we build, design, and live each day.
• 46:18
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• 46:25
  Dave Wallace: You can also search Sunlight Matters on Google to find all our episodes, guest information and resources about sunlight analysis, solar exposure, and the best home orientation for natural light.
• 46:38
  Dave Wallace: You can also head over to shadowmap.org where you can download our iOS app for free today to visualize how sun is currently impacting your life.
• 46:49
  Dave Wallace: We appreciate you being part of the conversation, and we'll see you next time, where you can keep exploring the world through the lens of light.