Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Too Much vs. Not Enough | Understanding the Enneagram Type Four with Sonja Scott

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Too Much vs. Not Enough | Understanding the Enneagram Type Four with Sonja Scott · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being told a lot that I was like an emotional roller coaster.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: You never knew what you were gonna get.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: The story a lot of times we tell ourselves is fours, or the one that I tell myself is um the story of too much.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're too much.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're too much for this, you're too much for that.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can only give them a little bit of who you are, because other than that, you know, anything more than that, they're gonna run.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: That lie of too much is what I've what I'm learning to love and have made some progress in is understanding like what I deem too much, God sees as just right.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just being able to share what what being God's beloved looks like, and that he is not gonna leave us where he found us, that he has a plan for every part of who we are.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for real life.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we did already say maybe we should have hit record earlier, but to invite our friend along into this conversation, I just want to start at it's Enneagram 4 Month.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Enneagram 4 Month has not gone according to the script, which is it's just on brand.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's on point for the Enneagram 4.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the last couple of weeks, we have explored Enneagram 4.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: The first week with Deanna Sudum, she's come every month, but she shared a little bit more of her story, which I thought was just beautiful and engaging.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and catch that one.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then last week I shared a summit conversation with my dear friend in Enneagram 4, Sarah Hagerty.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was also just really profound.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I found myself listening to it again in order to receive the ministry from that conversation.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so even though I participated, it happened a couple of weeks ago, I listened back and received in such a beautiful way.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So today I'm excited.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sonia Scott, she's a wholehearted coach and Enneagram for she was a speaker that did a live session on our summit.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: And my friend who's listening, maybe you've never done any sort of speaking.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not even in your wheelhouse or on your site of vision, but just know those who said yes to going live for my wholehearted summit had to dig deep for some courage.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really love how everyone showed up and did that and offered that to the community so that we could have real conversation in real time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, Sonia, thank you for saying yes again to this podcast conversation.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be sharing some of your story from your four lens, but also those that you've helped guide through the story.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being here.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel like coming home.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like coming home.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yay.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Good place to be.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we have been chatting quite a bit.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I just encourage you, even if you thought you said it, say it again because who knows, who needs to hear it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we're gonna unpack the victim, villain, hero guide framework together.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we aren't gonna explore each of those in detail, the the big picture.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna go into the minutiae from the Enneagram Four perspective.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But when so when we talk about that, it's outlining the characters or the roles that we've played in our story and also those who've played those roles in our story.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it all impacts each other.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: But specifically, when the Enneagram Four is doing story work and they're on this wholehearted journey, where do you see the fours getting stuck in the victim role?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: What maybe does the initial wound look like?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: The continuation of that wound, how does that play out for an Enneagram four?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe in their mind, their body, and their emotions?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it begins.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think we know about the four that we're looking to be seen authentically for who we are.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're a child growing up as a four, not knowing, like, not having any language to put to pretty much anything, you know.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like sometimes it's like we're our bodies are, you know, have their own, they do have a mind of their own.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: They our emotions take on a hole.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being told a lot that I was like an emotional roller coaster.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: You never knew what you were gonna get.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think the uh initial wounding can can obviously, you know, think of family of origin, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: We all are born into a family of some sort.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we come into the world, we we're we have a lack of awareness, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Self-awareness.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then as our families come to know who we are or what we're bringing to the table within that family, we're not always equipped to to, I mean, I I've experienced that as a parent, right?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're not always equipped to engage or to understand or to come alongside whatever that personality behavior might be.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think within a home, sometimes as you know, as a four, there's this, there's this reactivity, there's this bigness of emotion.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, at least, growing up, it was not always exactly known how to known how to dealt how to deal with it or how to engage it or how to parent it even.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, the initial it's a rejection wound, you know, just and then once that ball starts rolling and you're growing up and life is happening, and there's food on the table, and there's a roof over your head, and there's activities to get to, and you know, you're learning along the way, okay, what how much of myself can I be in this environment and still feel like I'm a part of it?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what do I need to tuck away so that I'm not getting this feeling of rejection consistently?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think ultimately you start rejecting those things within yourself and sort of hide hiding from yourself, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: The withdrawing almost takes on a whole new, like, okay, who do I have to try to be in this environment to get acceptance?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um or to not experience the the constant feelings of rejection.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you use this turn of phrase, the rejecting yourself almost or within yourself.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you spend a little bit more time teasing it out?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think therein lies insight where we can get clear where I have been a victim and need healing and care and tending to.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And where am I leaning into the victim mentality where I'm getting stuck in rumination and comparison and the self-rejection?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, I think you start feeling victimized maybe by an external, and then you internalize that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you use the word rumination, which is great.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my internal world and the stories I tell myself are in everything.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love the story work part of the work that we do because everything, even to this day, I'm like, there's a story behind that, and I need to know it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's my own some, you know, behavior that pops up or sadness that pops up, what's the story?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where what string do I need to pull to better understand?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're when you're younger, your brain's not fully formed.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I say this a lot.
• 8:23
  unknown: Yeah.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's important too.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that tidbit of information along the way, education, trainings, whatever.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my gosh, not until we're 25.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: 13, 14.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Reassuring.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's a lot of storytelling that you do to make sense of your world.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And my stories were never positive.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's due to, you know, outside influence and impact of being characterized certain ways because of how I showed up, but also you take hold of that, and then you're creating spinning the negative story.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Really, just to, I think more or less, just to validate, validate your feelings, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Your feelings like I need these feelings to make sense.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're so big.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I they're I'm constantly exhaustively trying to control them so that they don't overwhelm others and cause distance and isolate, you know, like there's a withdrawing and then there's being isolated, right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's a I choose to pull away, but then there's the no one really wants to be around.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of, you know, at least that's the story you start to tell yourself, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So rejection turns into withdrawing.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Withdrawing turns into isolation, and then before you know it, you've created an entire story around your value and your worth, people's interest in knowing you or being close to you.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is beautifully said.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for going there because you follow this line of sabotage that doesn't look big, dramatic, or drastic.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: But this is that thread that's where we go if we don't tend to the wounds that are real and genuine.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: We get stuck in that thought process.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the self-sabotage actually becomes villainous behavior, which is the unintentional role we all play.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so that's it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So as you were saying, self-taught sabotage, the other word that came up is self-erasure, right?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's another one of those words that I've learned throughout the learning and growing process.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that's exactly it's it's a self-erasure because I can't show up the way that felt so natural to me, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Felt so genuine for me.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's the self-erasure, and then you become a villain in your own story.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've shared that with you before, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's it's easy to look out in your world, in your relationships, and say, well, that's the villain in my story.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I ended up this way.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But in in my story, you know, eventually I became the villain and the person who created a mindset around not being enough, not being, which is it's so feels so like cliche for not being like the RDS, right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm other to myself, like I'm different from them.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I see the world around, I see how they operate.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I see even I'm thinking back to even graduating with a master's degree and watching the young people around me with the same degrees having all of these plans with what they were going to do with that degree and licensure and very career focused.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And even within the environment, I would watch them like how they moved through their day and even their counseling sessions and the hours they were all everything to me looked like I am not like them.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have the same degree, we're the same age, but I want this with my life.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone else seems to be on a different train.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, Lord, because at this point, thank God I had some relationship with the Lord.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know why this looks different, but I'm gonna start to embrace it because I I don't think I can, I don't think I can morph myself into that.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I don't think I can, I don't think I have the energy to try anymore.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that's what you've called me to because now I know, you know, I know that I'm created in your image and I trust you.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I trust that you made me to be, you know, different, possibly from my peers.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a, there was the, I mean, I guess I'm moving along the story a little bit, but that for me became it was my saving grace.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was definitely headed on a train to like, okay, I'm what I what I am is not working.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: The whole self-ration, okay, who's gonna tell me what to be?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it got to the point where it's like, what's gonna define me next?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a relationship?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it where I'm from?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: When I reflect on where I'm from and the people I grew up with and grew up around in a relationship I was in high school where I was convinced this is it, we could possibly get married.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like Lord, if you had allowed that, Lord, if you had allowed that before I was even really acknowledging you as my savior, if you had allowed that, where would I be today?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And because I like I said, I've become more or less if you believe in the blank slate, people are like, Are you born a blank slate?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily believe in that, but I'd gotten to a point where it's like erase all of this stuff that makes it hard for me to be me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: What can I be next?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: The self-abandonment too.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: The self-abandonment of the abandonment of what God has put in you, not only to bring him glory, but to satisfy you, your longings, your desires, your perspective, the giftings, what you can receive.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: As I'm thinking through all of this, and I love that you went ahead and teased out some of the story, because I do want to pause and just say, hear us talk about these roles that we've played with so much grace, knowing that we're gonna play multiple times throughout our life these different roles.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have the temptation.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: As a four, you talk about the self-sabotage that looks like holding everybody at arm's length, rejecting yourself, self-abandonment or eraser.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh all of those different elements that are towards yourself.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you might experience villainous behavior from others, which heaven help us all.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we we've got to work through that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there is this point though, when we begin to ultimately, thanks to the grace and the mercy of Christ that is available to us all, we can take that fork in the road moment, that turn, where instead of our victim mentality or our victim moments creating the villainous spirit or character traits in us, we can become the hero by partnering with the best hero, the perfect hero.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: You hinted at a little bit of what that story looked like.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: What were some of the other feelings or decisions you made or moments that you've come to more than once where you go, I'm gonna choose the road less traveled and say yes to wholeheartedness and bring those broken pieces to the Lord so I can have a different story?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about the hero.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I intentionally, I would say it was in college.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's it's amazing what happens within three to four years.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like that college experience, what it opens up in your life and your understanding, and your awareness and possibility.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's possible in the world?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I went to college because that was the thing.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can say this without reservation.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: My mom was like, You're gonna grow up, you're gonna go to college, you're gonna get a good job.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's how this is gonna go.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, or if you're not gonna go to college, you gotta find a job, you gotta go.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: The the military is an option.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a military family.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really ever think that was my route.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I can't see that route in your life, but hey.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, thank you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Way to have family say choose one.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to college, wasn't exactly sure about degree or major, but then at that time we were declaring majors as freshmen, and I I chose psychology for so many reasons.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Some were family related.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: My brother was doing psychology, and that it meshed well with my heart at that time.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, after starting with psychology, finding out I need four semesters of Spanish, getting scared away on that, changed it a few more times.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: But in that time, I'm talking with my mom and my parents and saying, maybe I want to go to culinary school.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And my mom's like, that's fine, but you're getting your degree first, and then you can possibly go to culinary school.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one time, I think I was at home when I said this to her.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was over the phone, and I said, Mom, you know what I really want?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't even tell you.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I was at caught in college in West Virginia seeing this as an example.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I did not necessarily grow up this way, but I said, I really, really, really want to be like a professional mom.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to be a mom and I want to be the mom that all the kids want to come to my house, and I want my kids to feel, you know, the love and joy of all of that.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say now, when you ask me that question, I believe that was the moment where God was that was a pivot moment for me.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Not that at that moment I quit school and, you know, I think I don't know if you've ever heard this before.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And people say, like, focused on getting my MRS degree.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I did not do that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I did not, but because I actually went to school thinking there's no way I'll find that's not happening in college because I won't know anyone long enough to share my life with them that way.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that's hilarious.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: God has a sense of humor.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, it was that that was a great, that was a pivot, that was a pivot moment.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that was the big that was the beginning of my second, I won't say second life, second chapter.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like the chapter where you live at home and your life there, what you develop with your family of origin, then it's okay, now I'm here on my own, and then life after that, and then starting your own family.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's I would call that a second chapter, whatever.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was our second volume.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love to think of our life in volumes as a future novelist.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Really good.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Second volume.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was, I think, the moment that God started the seed planting the seeds in my heart of becoming the hero alongside him, but of my own story, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can you can, I don't say rewrite, but you can change the trajectory.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can be the pivot person.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm really big on this.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's something God's been developing me over the last like an awareness, a way of putting words to it, is that I think he does choose people within certain generations to be pivot people, whether that's in faith, um, whether that's in the way you parent, whether that's in the first, you know, the first, we hear this a lot, the first generation of people and first person to go to college.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of firsts that continue to happen in our world is as long as we've been living, you know, as long as the world's existed, there's still first.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a for me, that was, I feel like the the parenting, the being a mom, our home and the traditions and the foundation and the Lord, all of that, I feel like was the beginning of my hero moment in my second volume.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: However, what I carried with me that began in my first volume and continued to carry for a long time was being the hero in everyone else's story.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Before I was the hero in my own story, I was the hero in a lot of other people's story.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was their coach, their friend, their guide, their listening ear, their the go-between, the person who knew all the things about this family member and their stuff, and this family member and their stuff.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was a way of uh finding identity.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was a way of finding um acceptance and affirmation of who I was, showing up for people in their hard places, which this is part of how I discovered I'm a four, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, how does this happen?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, attracting friendships and relationships with people who are really in really hard places.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what happened through that was I I wasn't I wasn't really being a hero for myself.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was still on the shelf.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was still not really believing in my own voice or my identity or my belovedness, as we like to say.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I sure knew other people were loved deeply and God had a plan for their life.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know if I've answered your question from the beginning.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, that was beyond what I could have asked for, Sonia, because a few things here.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: You tell On the sidekick role that sometimes we sidestep literally sidestep the hero moment in order to be something to other people, and what you just hit on, I think so many of our friends are still living, and that is they believe belovedness for everyone else, and they even offer it, speak it, and give it, but they haven't received it and believed it for themselves personally, deeply, in a life-changing way.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's critical, and I don't know that I've said it so explicitly, but that we go through these moments in order, that we understand this is why the story work has chapters and volumes, and we don't just do it once, because as we are becoming more like Christ, being formed in Christ, there's gonna be new things that we have to say yes to the Lord and go a different direction, pivot, if you will, take the road less traveled.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really powerful.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you share that because I want to hear now what makes the guide role different in that you're walking in it with a lot of women, not in every facet, and you can unpack that a little bit, but because fours are full of caveats, I've learned.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: But tell us now, how does the guide roll look different?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you are operating that in so many different ways for a lot of people, but in a different way.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think really what stands out to me the most at this season in my life is that because I I've been the counselor, I've been the friend who's acting as a counselor slash coach.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in those time in those moments, in that time, doing that, and it's still, I still am very empathetic and can and carry people's stories with me in a very intense way.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: The difference is I don't begin to embody their story because I appreciate and give have given voice to my own.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I've I'm historically, even I'll share this part, it's a little more intimate, but when I was doing counseling before I had Sophia, my first daughter, it was really, really, really tough on me.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And something that my my husband would say, You bring it all home with you.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's so heavy.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or I could have friends going through different things in their relationships, and it would start, I would start to see that kind of stuff happening.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's I was like, is that maybe that's happening there?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not really clear.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes, yes, right.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I've noticed, because I uh from counseling to to now being able to wear this hat as a coach, which is so amazing, I've noticed the one part of the difference is I'm allowed to, I'm able to walk with you through things with you, be in it with you, but it not become my story.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Having that separation.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not something that happened overnight.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you, even with my children, not allowing their story to become my story, you know, or or how do I even say it?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because there's so many things that that they go through that they go through, and I could get historically would be get be stuck with them, with them, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Get stuck in the mud, and they've moved on because by the grace of God, he's given me wisdom to and they're and they're different personality types than I am, so they don't necessarily get stuck in the mud with big emotion like that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, um, I think it's been more of an embodiment of my own story that has allowed me to come along people come alongside people as a guide in a more um, I would say a healthy way.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and definitely life-giving.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where you can offer withness without it being enmeshment.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think where a nine would merge and couldn't delineate what's their feelings, opinions, wants, or desires, the four would also maybe it's not, it's the enmeshment and entangling of emotion where they cannot separate their own from others and how they're carrying others as their own.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I have seen you expand in that in such great in the where you're disentangling, where you're walking in freedom, where you're sitting with others.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still a moment to acknowledge as people who sit with really hard stories that are not our own, it does impact us.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And to try to negate the impact would be untrue and not caring, but it's the God, this is hard, but you are their hero.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: You are with them as much as you are with me, and you carry this, and that's different than us trying to carry it for them, whether it's getting them across the finish line or out of the bottom of the U.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we can be with them in it and learn how to, because we've sat with ourselves and allowed Christ to sit with us, that we know the power of that.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and not being consumed by it.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I yeah, it's funny how often, like how in some relationships I've been so enmeshed in being the hero.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Not even aware, not even fully aware of it, but having those God moments where it's like, I have, I got them, I have them, I love them deeply and more than you can in your humanity.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so if your trust is in me, and as I've been saying a lot lately, you trust in my sovereignty, yeah, then you have to lay you have to lay this down.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's only so much of gift of what's the word, I can't even think it's not gifted, but what's the word?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't say empowered you with to to walk, you know, like there's there's there's a certain level of walking with and then taking that hand, and and that's what I love about what we do with hearted and how you have set up this environment and this atmosphere of God first, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like we say the Enneagram, God makes the God is the Enneagram is information, the Enneagram gives us awareness, but the transformation comes from the Lord.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, from Christ alone.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we get to partner as guides by the side.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're not responsible for pushing, cajoling, pulling, forcing.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are just that gentle hand on the shoulder, or you know, hand by hand, or linking arms and going along the way as we continue to say yes to our work.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that was really good.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like there's so many little offshoots that I was thinking of as you said it.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what I want to give a little bit of airtime to is distinguishing the voice of love from the voice of the well, the truth, the untruths, the lies that we often carry.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because therein lies something that you hinted at earlier is us believing our belovedness changes everything, right?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: That allows us to have our hero moments, but to also ultimately be a healthy guide.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to distinguish the voices.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm curious for you what it's maybe looked like for you, or even in with the fours that you've worked with.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: What are what do we sometimes believe that are lies?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: But what's the voice of truth, uh of love to help us remember who we really are?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the story a lot of times we tell ourselves is fours, or the one that I tell myself is um the story of too much.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're too much.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're too much for this, you're too much for that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can only give them a little bit of who you are, because other than that, you know, anything more than that, they're gonna run.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh and what I've learned is that too that that lie of too much is what I've what I'm learning to love and have made some progress in is understanding like what I deem too much, God sees as just right, just enough in a world full of people who don't feel or it's hard to feel, or we've become so apathetic, like in the like what I'm able to bring to the table of with of genuine love connection, emotional, even emotional reactivity, the response, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: The the tear that drops that I'm like, goodness gracious, where did that come from?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have no control over it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just coming because there's this beauty in that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's a beauty in that tear, there's a beauty in that ability to um be present in a in the moment and give what is just so naturally bubbling up from the inside.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I had spent so long believing that was gonna overwhelm people, or that it's it's funny because I do have a story.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: My husband's been so great in like, first of all, like, why do you why are you trying to qualify your feelings or what you should feel?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: You feel what you feel, like share that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know that, I want to hear that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And in my mind, I'm like, oh no, you don't because it's crazy, it's wild, it's out of control, because that's how it feels from the inside.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, when I start to give it, it's like I'm learning one, because I'm becoming comfortable with my with my voice and expressing those things, but I'm learning that like there's so much value and it leaves and it opens space for other people to feel.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: It opens space for other people to to have a place to give their feelings or their emotions, or just creates an avenue that slows things down a little bit to process.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is such a gift.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I won't stay on this, but I think it's interesting to note both you and Deanna are self-prezed force.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's worth just stating those who are for and fit more in the self-preservation instinct, that too much is really loud, whereas sometimes, especially for the sexual or one-to-one for, the not enough is really loud.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it is believing the truth and the voice of love that you're exactly what you need to be and what others need from you in this moment.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be perfect, it's not going to be the same all the time, but to be fully yourself and that is a gift to others.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know for the fours that I am friends with, it's such a gift to have them go first in expressing emotion because often it's articulated or expressed in a way that gives me permission or helps me find language for what it is that is going on that I I don't otherwise have easily accessible.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a gift to me.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being a four.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: The permission, the permission to to be, the permission to show up, the permission to share.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah, I think I I appreciate that you made that distinction between the too much and the not enough, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a yeah, yeah, it is a tuck of war.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, it is the pendulum does swing rather wildly.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and if you think about that too much and then not enough is where do you show up in that?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where you're yeah, because if you're trying to hide because you think you're too much, or if you're not showing up because you think, well, my voice doesn't matter.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: What I have to say is not really going to make an impact.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: If I show up or not, it's not gonna matter.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a million people there.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um then then you you lose the you like you lose a whole person in that.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I am fully bought in on the fact that we are the body of Christ.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: We all serve a role and play a part.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I am still learning, as I as I've said a few times, I'm still learning how to show up, how to not survey and say, they have enough of this, they have enough of that, that's been said, you know, and I and you hear it, you hear like, no, your voice is you, you, your voice is unique.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Believing that is a little different than than hearing it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which is why we've said yes to the work and it's an ongoing journey, it's a process.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's burdensome or heavy.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the trade-off is worth it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: It is one of those things that I can testify the ROI is greater than the effort we're putting in because it's Christ in us, Holy Spirit with us that ultimately does the healing and the formation.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: But we saying yes, which might mean saying no to some other things to spend more time with the Lord, to give ourselves stillness, silence, solitude, comfort, care, compassion, time in the word, those elements and healthy community, that's a big piece of it as well.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Those translate to good, good fruit and a lightness that we can't get anywhere else.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And belief that helps us avoid the emotional whiplash we give ourselves and others, which I know we all want to like be a little bit more regulated in the world and and we know it goes better for us.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So 100%.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: That is that is also one of the the growth points for me right now is the allowing myself, allowing the feeling not to be the whole story.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I talked about story before, right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, especially if a feeling lingers, there's again a story attached to it, and usually not a great story that I'm going to tell myself about it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've I'm learning to be more vocal around those feelings and get truth from, let's say I'm telling myself a story in my marriage, but get truth from my husband around the around the story as opposed to, and then the thing about a four is that we are how do I say intern, I would say internally referenced in terms of what I tell myself is my is the truth.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is the story I trust.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take a lot to change because I've I've thought this through, I've vetted it out, I've had enough of the experience to know.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's just a way of of standing firm, and what we've determined within ourselves is is the truth.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cautionary tale.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, yes.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because we have to orient ourselves around the truth and remind.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think you even said at the beginning that while the feelings are real and valid, it's not necessarily the whole story or the truth of the story that I feel in this moment.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's important to have healthy places where we can process that processing with the Lord, but then the safe people that he brings to partner with us.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sonia, this is so good.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we always say this at the end of our conversations, we should do more because this goes so great and so fun.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I do want to give one last question a little bit of airtime.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's in reference to what I know your vision in your heart is, which is whole families and this vision for working with moms, working with families.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: But unto you've you've received the Enneagram is such an incredible tool and a gift in your motherhood, especially raising and now launching teenagers, young women.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to just give a touch on the uh four asking, I can feel my longing bleed out as I parent, and because they want their children to feel deeply, but also knowing there's a balance to that as they work through their own story and their own emotions and feelings.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what's what does it look like for them to walk with emotional attunement, but not also carry too much in that process and not get dysregulated themselves?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it really what has has helped me is trying to stay present where my feet are.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Being past oriented to time, being the past, it's been very, I've learned a lot from walking alongside two intimately, two types that are very different from mine.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's been, I think there's been plenty of their lives where small things have become so much bigger.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I hear actually, I still hear this to this day, probably last week.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, mom, we would kind of get through this if you'd kind of get out of it.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, right.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Shoot.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wait a second, did we just spend an hour talking about something that you all could have fixed in maybe five to six?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not, I'm not, I'm not, again, not a rock.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a master's degree here.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's this is a living it in real time.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they're too they're teaching me so much.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I, yes, I have a tendency to, and I've I've done this to my older daughter, like relationship with your sister is so important, and I've I've put a lot of burden on her to that those connections are so deep, and you know, like we just spending time to get all of the things and what what I and what I'm learning, and I feel like I don't want to say it's it's not too late, right?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's never too late.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you told me.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I believe it.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that there's so much value, and I I say this a lot being students of our children, they're teaching us a lot.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, God was not, did not haphazardly send those people into your lives, those little people, those growing people, those launched people.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think he has sanctification in mind when he does that.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to humbly um take the role of yes, we're teaching and discipling, but acknowledging that they were sent to teach us something as well.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you're learning the Enneagram and have the benefit of that knowledge of understanding type and how how different types like make their way through life, how they communicate, it gives you, it gives me as a four an opportunity to ground and understand like my type, type one versus the type eight, how they're how they have where conflict happens, you know, where we might need to sit with things for a little longer, right?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I've I've spent, I'm very grateful for that ability because it's given me opportunity with them to build relationships that I think if I wasn't a four, it would have been, it would have been, it would have been a little harder.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: It'd have been a little harder to get them to places of to a place of being open, to feeling safe with the hard things.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like there's a a a relationship between us that allows them to share the hard stuff.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: That yeah, I don't sit in awe or like shock, or what are we gonna do with this?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think it gives them a ground a good grounding point.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we it's it there's a some uh reciprocity in the way that our family works, and I I believe that's part of God's divine design.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so when you're thinking of attunement, I think taking just taking a step back, right?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: When because it's gonna rise as a force, and it's gonna rise, the feelings, the emotions, the I need to fix this because big for me is if the present right now is this, it's gonna be remembered poorly, or it's gonna have an impact that lasts for so long.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I base that around my past, right?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like so staying present, attuning through quiet time with the Lord, quiet time to process what is in front of you instead of what happened or what the future's gonna be.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, that's I think that's the way I've been able to be the connector point for the children in my life.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and the way that they're developing.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know we've talked about it before, and I'll give this phrase here again, but it's benevolent detachment and it's a John Eldridge teaching, and he unpacks it more in his work and his app, a one-minute pause app.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's been such a gift, I think, as a seven on the flip side who doesn't want to have to sit in it.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you and I, I know have talked about it as you process these big shifts and changes with two teenage girls who who where you would readily come into it with them, but how do you give them that permission to emote as needed and to find the safe place without, like you talked about, without making it need to be a bigger deal than they're like, mom, I'm over it already.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to move on.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And this was not soul defining.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was not, it was not a soul-defining moment.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Sonia, thank you.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I really think that you gave us something that only you could give, only a four could give in this moment of drawing that map for us of how we orient how a four might even orient themselves, what the territory looks like.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've given wisdom and insight and directive and just inspiration ultimately.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: That our starting point doesn't have to be our start point.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just because this is where you find yourself on the map, it doesn't mean you need to live into that place.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Even if the first volume or maybe the first two volumes of life have been riddled with trauma and hurt and pain, and where you haven't lived into your belovedness or even known the message of belovedness.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be that way.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: This can be a new volume.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can turn the page to the new chapter.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Sonia, you've you've given that encouragement and that hope today from a force perspective, I think has been so beautiful.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: It has been um, I always enjoy doing this these podcasts with you, being able to speak about the experience of being a four.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: But more than that, just being able to share what what being God's beloved looks like and that he is not gonna leave us where he found us, that he has a plan for every part of who we are.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when we deem those parts of us unworthy or or too much, I think we lose the plot.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I lose our place in the plot of his story.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's for me that that's that's sad.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, right?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's something I grieve within myself, and I grieve when I see others doing it because he has a purpose for every part of how you were created.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whether that is to transform it so you know him more, right?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying he created us, right?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't, we're not perfect, but whether it's it's part of his transformation process, getting developing deeper relationship with him, or it's part of what we're supposed to share with the world.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the enemy just gets the glory when we, you know, deem those parts of ourselves not worthy.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Beautifully said.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is a mic drop moment for sure.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Sonia.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is again, this is beautiful.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.