Latest / Ridiculous History / Batman, or Bat-Man? A Ridiculously Comical Feud For The Ages

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Batman, or Bat-Man? A Ridiculously Comical Feud For The Ages · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. We're not wearing hockey pads. Big
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Speaker 1: shout out to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan.
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Speaker 2: Is that your scary voice, Ben?
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Speaker 1: Oh, that's actually my regular voice. I was heading from
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Speaker 1: a helium Ballue.
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Speaker 2: I love the time. That is a real commitment to
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Speaker 2: the bit. I respect and appreciate that you are Ben
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Speaker 2: in fact, and I am Nolan.
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Speaker 1: This is history right, Yes, yes, that's us. From earlier
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Speaker 1: we had such a fantastic exploration of the triumvirate history
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Speaker 1: of the phrase bloody Mary and I think we were
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Speaker 1: both surprised by the unexpected turns that exploration took. And
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Speaker 1: now we're talking about something another story with a lot
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Speaker 1: of hidden history behind it. One of the most popular
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Speaker 1: comic characters of all time, everybody's favorite billionaire Bruce Wayne aka.
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Speaker 2: Batman, coming to us from our research associated extraordinaire Andrea.
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Speaker 2: I don't think we've bestowed a nickname. You may people
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Speaker 2: Workshop Dowent. The last one we did from Andrea was
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Speaker 2: about the origins of the word Poluka, and that had
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Speaker 2: some awesome comics lore and history associated with it, and
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Speaker 2: today is no different because it is introducing us to
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Speaker 2: a character that many folks who are not deep comics
1:51
Speaker 2: nerds might not be familiar with. A guy named Milton
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Speaker 2: Bill Finger. Yeah, Fingers, interesting surf, It really is. You know,
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Speaker 2: if you're picking a persona or a fake name, Finger
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Speaker 2: is Actually it's a brilliant choice, because it's so weird
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Speaker 2: that you would think no one chose that on purpose, right, yeah,
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Speaker 2: it would seem to be the case. Built him, built
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Speaker 2: in Mill Finger. I'm leaving it. He passed away when
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Speaker 2: he passed away, rather, he passed away and up to
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Speaker 2: what you would consider obscurity, long believed that his body
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Speaker 2: was buried in a potter's field, which is like a
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Speaker 2: pauper's grave. You might refer to that as But it
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Speaker 2: wasn't until later that history would remember Bill and give
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Speaker 2: him his due as being truly one of the hidden
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Speaker 2: hands in the creation of Batman the Dark Knight.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we'll set a we'll set a bittersweet
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Speaker 1: cinematic tone here. Later history would learn that Bill Finger's son,
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Speaker 1: Fred Finger, had right, right, I remember that one well,
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Speaker 1: Fred claimed his father's body. It wasn't placed in a
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Speaker 1: potter's field. Instead, for his dad's wishes, Fred cremated his
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Speaker 1: father's cadaver and then brought his ashes to Manzanita Beach
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Speaker 1: in Oregon, and he spread those ashes in the shape
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Speaker 1: of a bat on the shore line. That's some dark poetry.
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Speaker 2: It is, indeed. Uh and yeah. Andrea points out that
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Speaker 2: when she first read that little detail, the song Kissed
3:43
Speaker 2: from a Rose by Seal flashed through her mind and
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Speaker 2: she said she had a single tear. There used to
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Speaker 2: be a gray tower alone on the sea. That's a
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Speaker 2: banger of a song. By the way, it's contrary to
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Speaker 2: popular believe, not written for the movie. It was on
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Speaker 2: Seal's album, the self titled Seal Album. That's just how
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Speaker 2: he is man. Yeah. Have you seen the Sprite commercial
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Speaker 2: where he is Seal as a Seal? I loved it.
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Speaker 2: I did too, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Speaker 1: And we all know that Batman is a fantastically fascinating character.
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Speaker 2: And fantastically money generating character.
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and even in the world of fiction, he
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Speaker 1: is phenomenally problematic.
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Speaker 2: Because he how flawed he is, which is what makes
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Speaker 2: him interesting, and how human he is, which is also
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Speaker 2: I think what has always set him apart from other
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Speaker 2: superheroes and the associated tropes is that he's like a
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Speaker 2: goffed up, tortured dude taking perma revenge on the world
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Speaker 2: in the form of batties for the death of his parents. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: Edie's a billionaire. It's also true broody billionaire gothpeing yep, right,
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Speaker 2: and he.
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Speaker 1: Could fix We'll get into it, but basically, with his
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Speaker 1: immense money from large industries, he could fix systemic problems
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Speaker 1: with Gotham City.
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Speaker 2: But no, but no hunch, right, he's someone who SIPs.
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Speaker 1: Now, just find a mashpa dude anyway. Finger Bill Finger
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Speaker 1: is a creator of Batman. We all know and love
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Speaker 1: Batman from Gotham City. He's also the Bill is also
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Speaker 1: the creator of Gotham City, by the way, as well
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Speaker 1: as Catwoman and The Joker. He died like you noted
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Speaker 1: no inobscurity in nineteen seventy four, and he was unlike
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Speaker 1: his creation Bruce Wayne, he was not well to do.
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Speaker 1: He was penniless at this point. He had a creative partner.
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Speaker 2: Okay, this is not super super far off from the
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Speaker 2: Peluka story and that there were two kind of rival
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Speaker 2: comics people, comics writers, or in one of them got
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Speaker 2: all the credit and couldn't draw a frame to save
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Speaker 2: his life. If I'm totally spacing on their names, but
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Speaker 2: do check out the pollup episode that Andrea did as well,
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Speaker 2: really really really interesting stuff. Bob Kaine is the name
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Speaker 2: that you may be much more familiar with. That's the
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Speaker 2: creative partner in question here. He had developed a red
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Speaker 2: jump suit clad, domino mask wearing character that he dubbed
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Speaker 2: the Batman, which has kinda come back if I'm not
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Speaker 2: mistaken the Robert Pattinson movies. They're using the Batman again.
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Speaker 1: And this is good, so legalistic, so quickly. Oh yeah,
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Speaker 1: Caine's creation is the bat dash Man. Yes, of course
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Speaker 1: that's also true.
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Speaker 2: That lawyer just got very excited. Yeah, with lawyers, they
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Speaker 2: love their dashes. Definitely living a bit of a Bruce
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Speaker 2: Wayne asque existence, full of opulence, wealth, international acclaim. When
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Speaker 2: Caine passed away in nineteen ninety eight, he had this
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Speaker 2: epitaph carved on his tombstone. Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne Batman,
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Speaker 2: they are one and the same. I like a rhyme.
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Speaker 2: It's not bad. I like a rhyming epiitaph.
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Speaker 1: If it's true, and Andrea has pulls all these great sources.
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Speaker 1: Andrea has shared with us a depiction of Batman without
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Speaker 1: a dash and bat dash Man and tells us that
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Speaker 1: how these two luminaries came to disagree and make such
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Speaker 1: similar characters is indeed a bit of history that gets ridiculous.
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Speaker 1: So let's let's get to it, right. It's nineteen thirty eight. Oh,
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Speaker 1: this will also do I just remember this will remind
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Speaker 1: a lot of folks about our Captain Marvel episode.
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Speaker 2: Also true and a banger from research associate Jeff the
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Speaker 2: Jeffman Bartley, Jeff, I like that? Or Factor G as
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot about Factor G. So it's nineteen
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Speaker 2: thirty eight. Like you said, Bob Kaine's already established in
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Speaker 2: the world of comics. He is offering an aspiring writer
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Speaker 2: again very similar to the Peluka story. Yeah, a shot
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Speaker 2: to be. This guy's a part time shoe salesman, that is.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, a part time shoe that it seems like
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Speaker 2: getting insults injury. No shade on anyone that's shoes for him.
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Speaker 2: I know.
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Speaker 1: It probably means he works twenty five hours a week
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Speaker 1: or something. Like that and probably has multiple jobs. But
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Speaker 1: I'd love it if part time shoe salesman means he
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Speaker 1: only sells right shoes, left ship if you've got a
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Speaker 1: door across the street.
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Speaker 2: For the other one. But yeah, Caine gives this a
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Speaker 2: fellow a way out of the shoe grind, gives him
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Speaker 2: a job ghost writing strips, meaning of course that he's
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Speaker 2: not being credited, which is an interesting, uh sort of
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Speaker 2: what's the word foreshadowing here with adventure comics. Finger, being
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Speaker 2: a bit self taught, was very smart, well read, and
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Speaker 2: had the chops to get it done. He made an
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Speaker 2: impression on Cain from the get go.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I love that you're pointing out the
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Speaker 1: similarities with the Polukaville rivalry here. So this guy Finger
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Speaker 1: has made a great impression on Daddy Caine at a
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Speaker 1: party where they met.
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Speaker 2: Daddy Kane rapper as a rapper, right, Yes, it is yes, Uh.
9:03
Speaker 1: The success of Superman really informs the comic industry.
9:09
Speaker 2: Oh seeding friendly. Everyone's looking for it to match that freak.
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Speaker 2: You know, let's we got to get something that's going
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Speaker 2: to rival Superman because it is an absolute feeding frenzy
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Speaker 2: for new superhero type. I don't think they're even calling
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Speaker 2: them that yet. At this point, it's.
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Speaker 1: Number one with a bullet, you know, the son of Krypton.
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Speaker 1: And add comics number one with a bull Yes, very
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Speaker 1: much so. And editors throughout the industry are already being
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Speaker 1: very j Jonah Jamison meme about this, Yeah, chopping their cigars.
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Speaker 2: They're power of the desk.
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Speaker 1: Get me my own Superman kids, exactly so. So Caine responds,
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Speaker 1: and this leads him to create the bat dash Man.
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Speaker 2: Uh.
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Speaker 1: And he took his inspiration from a film from the
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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties called The Bat's Whispers, which I haven't seen.
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Speaker 2: Not to be confused with The Bat Whisperer, which is
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Speaker 2: different film entirely and a very heartwarming. So Cain had
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Speaker 2: this idea for the character, but he knew it needed
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Speaker 2: a little bit more fleshing out. And that's where Finger
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Speaker 2: came in. He was he was the flesh man. He
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Speaker 2: was the guy that added a little meat to the bones,
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Speaker 2: and Cain was more the idea man. It would seem
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Speaker 2: right hearing it directly from Finger, Cain had an idea
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Speaker 2: for a character called Batman. He does say at this
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Speaker 2: point in quotes here Batman with no spaces or dashes,
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Speaker 2: and he'd like me to see the drawings. I went
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Speaker 2: over to Caine's and he had drawn a character which
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Speaker 2: very much looked like Superman, with kind of reddish tights
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Speaker 2: that were later squeezed out into a bucket to make
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Speaker 2: pink lemonade. Sorry, I'm really harping on that. I don't know.
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Speaker 2: It's haunting me.
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Speaker 1: Oh, we need to It's it's high time, I believe,
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Speaker 1: he says, with boots and the fur, no gloves, no gauntlets,
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Speaker 1: with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope.
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Speaker 2: He had two stiff wings. And in the image that
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Speaker 2: Andrea attached here, it is a comics panel of two
11:03
Speaker 2: fellows looking at a like a like a conspiracy type board,
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Speaker 2: you know, like the red thread thing with Charlie Day
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Speaker 2: or whatever. And on one side we've got Batman as
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Speaker 2: we know it. The other side we've got the bat
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Speaker 2: dash Man with the red tights and the kind of
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Speaker 2: bat wing resembling rigid wings that he's describing.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is still yeah, like a lighter by
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Speaker 1: the ways.
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Speaker 2: And under it was a big sign Batman. And that's
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Speaker 2: interesting though, because yeah, there is a little discrepancy in
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Speaker 2: these stories about the providence of the name, because we
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Speaker 2: have heard from other sources that this version that Caine
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Speaker 2: created was the bat dash Man, but then coming from
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Speaker 2: Finger himself, he's calling it Batman.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is interesting. So Finger looks
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Speaker 1: at this, and it's common for any of us in
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Speaker 1: creative circles when your friends ask you for advice, you
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Speaker 1: always have to check and say, do you what do
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Speaker 1: you want? Do you want me to tell you how
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Speaker 1: I feel about it? Or do you want specific notes?
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker 1: Do you want suggestions or do you want me to
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Speaker 1: or do you just want to show it to someone?
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Speaker 1: Finger probably puts his finger to his chin. It looks
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Speaker 1: at this because the.
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Speaker 2: Singer's your move, yes a finger finger, yeah.
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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And then he says, I've got a couple
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Speaker 1: of notes. And just like a studio exec or no
12:26
Speaker 1: offense to the three of us, an executive producer, his
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Speaker 1: couple of notes comment means he wants to change almost everything.
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Speaker 2: He starts with a costume, and.
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Speaker 1: He says, let's give him a cowl instead of this,
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Speaker 1: instead of this domino mask. Let's make this suit darker.
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Speaker 1: Because when you think of bats, you think of nighttime
12:46
Speaker 1: and He looks at the creation by Lee Fulk the Phantom,
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Speaker 1: and so he says, Okay, we're going to take Cane's
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Speaker 1: the Batman and we're going to morph it into the
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Speaker 1: more modern Batman we know today. Finger also generates the
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Speaker 1: backstory because the way history tells it, it seems like
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Speaker 1: Cain was inspired to do something like but not quite Superman,
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Speaker 1: and past the idea of an association with bats. He
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Speaker 1: hadn't really thought through the lore. That's where the writer
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Speaker 1: Finger comes in. He says, Okay, what does this guy
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Speaker 1: do when he's not dressed like this? Well, let's make
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Speaker 1: him interesting. His name is Bruce Wayne, and I'm taking
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Speaker 1: that from Robert to Bruce, a Scottish king of Old Bruce.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Apparently I did not know this bit of history, even
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Speaker 1: as a comic nerd. Apparently Finger chose the last name
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Speaker 1: Wayne because it suggested gentry and colonialism.
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Speaker 2: Mmm. Yeah, no, I didn't know that either. And another
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Speaker 2: thing that I didn't know this word cowl. I've only
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Speaker 2: really ever heard it associated with the bat, helmet or
13:57
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And I want to
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Speaker 2: ask you and put this to you. Are all cowls? Hoods?
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Speaker 2: Are some hoods, cowls. Is there a crossover between hood
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Speaker 2: and cowl? What does a cowl make? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a crossover. I think technically it's
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Speaker 1: an overall garment and it comes from monastic practices.
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Speaker 2: For sure, definitely monkish.
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Speaker 1: Like a robe with a hood is technically a cowl,
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Speaker 1: but often, and perhaps incorrectly, I hear it used to
14:29
Speaker 1: mean just.
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Speaker 2: The head piece. That's what I'm thinking, and that to
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Speaker 2: me is part is the distinction. And you can you
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Speaker 2: definitely see it's almost like a detachable hood that has
14:38
Speaker 2: drapes that go over the shoulders as well, which is
14:40
Speaker 2: totally what the Batman helmet hat cowl is. It's got
14:45
Speaker 2: the hood part and then it goes down over the
14:47
Speaker 2: shoulders and kind of down onto the chest a little
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Speaker 2: bit depending on the version.
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so maybe that's it. I think we're onto something.
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Speaker 1: It's technically a cowl because it goes over the clavicle.
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Speaker 1: Yeah right, shake stends past the Okay.
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Speaker 2: Let's go, let's go with it. Yeah, sorry, I had
15:02
Speaker 2: to take that little etymological diversion there.
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Speaker 1: So Finger says. I tried Bruce Adams, I tried Bruce Hancock.
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Speaker 1: Then I thought of Mad Anthony Wayne. Oooh, Mad Anthony
15:24
Speaker 1: what's his deal?
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker 1: I love how he's saying that it's such a casual
15:28
Speaker 1: of course, Mad Anthony Wayne.
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Speaker 2: Tone. Yeah, everybody knows about Mad Anthony. I'm sure there are.
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Speaker 1: A lot of history buffs who are scandalized right now.
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Speaker 2: So, uh, Noel and Chainsaw.
15:40
Speaker 1: And I learned that Mad Anthony Wayne is a street
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Speaker 1: name for an American soldier and founding father named Anthony Wayne.
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Speaker 2: Whoa who looks exactly like George Washington? Yes, yeah, I mean,
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Speaker 2: I guess a lot of cats probably looked like that
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Speaker 2: back in those days. But it is uncanny, like the
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Speaker 2: the way he wears his hat, his posture, his powdered wig.
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Speaker 2: But again, probably not the most uncommon garb. But it's
16:08
Speaker 2: really weird now I'm looking at all these portraits a
16:11
Speaker 2: general outfit. Yeah, President, Wait a second, sorry, I went
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Speaker 2: down a quick off, Mike rabbit Hole. I'm like, was
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Speaker 2: Matt Anthony Wayne secretly the alter ego of George Washington? Right,
16:29
Speaker 2: it'll be appropriate for this story, But no, he was
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Speaker 2: his own person. He was the fifth senior Officer of
16:33
Speaker 2: the United States Army, hence the military garb and he
16:37
Speaker 2: did serve under President George Washington. You know, he set
16:40
Speaker 2: the tone for fashion choices. But did you.
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Speaker 1: Ever see them in the same room at the same time.
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Speaker 2: Did Never? Did? We definitely didn't because we weren't there.
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Speaker 1: But okay, so our buddy Finger clearly a well read guy,
16:55
Speaker 1: knows a lot about history. He's taking inspiration for the
16:58
Speaker 1: name Bruce Wayne from history, and he says, look, I'm
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Speaker 1: combining this freedom fighter, Robert the Bruce, with this crazy
17:07
Speaker 1: revolutionary war hero, and that's perfect for Batman. This is
17:12
Speaker 1: a wealthy taunt a playboy by day, but at night
17:17
Speaker 1: he's super serious. He's superhumanly serious. He's a vigilante battles crime.
17:23
Speaker 1: And he also doesn't have People will tell you he
17:26
Speaker 1: doesn't have superpowers. I've winged about this on stuff they
17:30
Speaker 1: don't want you to know at length. Being a billionaire
17:34
Speaker 1: is a superpower.
17:36
Speaker 2: So he was born on third Yeah, for sure. So
17:42
Speaker 2: it is cool. Though it is, I still would argue
17:44
Speaker 2: that it is an interesting foible. Let's just say that
17:48
Speaker 2: the guy is a bit of a human man with
17:52
Speaker 2: with you know, flaws, and he can't just vaporize you
17:55
Speaker 2: with a look like Superman can do. So it did
17:59
Speaker 2: make him a little bit more of an everyman relatively speaking,
18:03
Speaker 2: despite the billionaire of it all. Finger conceived of Wayne
18:07
Speaker 2: being like the detective, you know, with powers of deduction
18:12
Speaker 2: and all of that, like a Sherlock Holmes type figure,
18:14
Speaker 2: and perkine in a documentary many decades later. Finger was
18:19
Speaker 2: a contributing force on Batman right from the beginning. This
18:23
Speaker 2: is a lot of revisionist history from Cain that we're
18:25
Speaker 2: going to get into. When you kind of had a
18:27
Speaker 2: bit of a change of heart or a pang of conscience.
18:30
Speaker 2: I made Batman a superhero vigilante when I first created him.
18:34
Speaker 2: Bill turned him into a scientific detective. I mean, obviously
18:38
Speaker 2: DC Comics stands for detective comics, So just putting that
18:41
Speaker 2: out there.
18:42
Speaker 1: It's also cool to see that this bears echoes of
18:46
Speaker 1: other earlier comic strip heroes who were things like superpowered
18:52
Speaker 1: doctors or super scientists. So there is a lineage there
18:57
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Maybe we can recommend some books to learn
19:01
Speaker 1: more about this. Check out the STORENKO History of Comics.
19:05
Speaker 1: This is where Finger talks at length about some of
19:08
Speaker 1: his creations, including Gotham City. Okay, I'll say this DC
19:14
Speaker 1: has a mixed bag hit or miss record with naming
19:18
Speaker 1: fictional cities. I think Metropolis and Gotham are probably the best.
19:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, the but what are some bad examples? I don't
19:24
Speaker 2: think I'm deep enough to know.
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Speaker 1: Things like Central City, Key City.
19:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, got it. Not Yeah, Gotham is awesome because
19:34
Speaker 2: it is very much New York, but it's not called
19:36
Speaker 2: New York. It's New York but not New York. It's
19:38
Speaker 2: almost this like I mean, let's just say a gothed
19:42
Speaker 2: up version of New York and my favorite depiction of it.
19:46
Speaker 2: I'm not deep into the comics, but I love the
19:49
Speaker 2: Tim Burton Batman version of Gotham City. I think, oh,
19:52
Speaker 2: I think your rules.
19:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd like I'd like more Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
19:58
Speaker 2: I think it's great.
19:59
Speaker 1: The New Anguin series was really good.
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Speaker 2: I was very good. And I love the Robert Pattinson
20:04
Speaker 2: the Batman quite a lot.
20:05
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, did you see that deleted scene with the Joker?
20:08
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's great. Good.
20:11
Speaker 1: Well okay, Well we want you to know how excellent
20:15
Speaker 1: the end result was and how close Gotham City came
20:18
Speaker 1: to being called Civic City or coast city or capital city.
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Speaker 1: So the guy Finger literally goes to a phone book
20:30
Speaker 1: for New York City and flips through the pages. He
20:34
Speaker 1: sees a listing for Gotham Jewelers, and he says, that's it,
20:38
Speaker 1: Gotham City. We can't straight up call it New York,
20:41
Speaker 1: even though it is New York Noir. We can't call
20:44
Speaker 1: it New York because we wanted anybody in any city
20:48
Speaker 1: to identify with this. So people do refer to New
20:51
Speaker 1: York as Gotham sometimes. Is that a direct reference to Batman?
20:55
Speaker 1: Because this Gotham Jewelers that wasn't already a term used
20:59
Speaker 1: to New York. Gotham in this respect, I imagined was
21:02
Speaker 1: maybe a family name, or are some other kind of descriptive.
21:06
Speaker 1: I think the use of Gotham to describe New York
21:08
Speaker 1: came later and is maybe a direct reference to its.
21:11
Speaker 2: Use in Batman.
21:12
Speaker 1: You know, I think the vast majority of us associate
21:17
Speaker 1: Gotham with New York because of Batman and the Batman universe.
21:21
Speaker 1: But if you go to Untapped Cities dot Com and
21:24
Speaker 1: look at Untapped New York, we see that the emergence
21:28
Speaker 1: of the nickname Gotham for New York dates back to
21:32
Speaker 1: a November eleventh, eighteen oh seven issue of a I
21:36
Speaker 1: guess it just for laughs kind of satirical mad magazine
21:40
Speaker 1: thing called Love.
21:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, from our boy Washington Irving, who I believe
21:45
Speaker 2: wrote The Headless Horseman, came up with all of that
21:49
Speaker 2: yidy hollow all that stuff. Very cool. I saw that too,
21:52
Speaker 2: and that's really glad we looked at that at the
21:54
Speaker 2: same time.
21:55
Speaker 1: And the narrator of Irving's history of New York is
22:00
Speaker 1: d Drik Knickerbocker.
22:01
Speaker 2: No, it's not, is that true? Yes, amazing full circle,
22:06
Speaker 2: that is where the magic happens. Man, I love it.
22:08
Speaker 2: So Gotham City is born, and that was because of
22:12
Speaker 2: a direct input from our boy Finger. He's also quite
22:16
Speaker 2: adept at coming up with villain ideas and helping to
22:19
Speaker 2: shape maybe some of Cain's broader ideas. Yeah.
22:25
Speaker 1: The Finger writes the first issue of the Batman comic
22:29
Speaker 1: book series, in which we are introduced to the Joker
22:32
Speaker 1: and the Catwoman, and then Finger goes on to create
22:36
Speaker 1: the concept of the bat Cave and the Batmobile.
22:39
Speaker 2: And then if you have you seen and in the
22:41
Speaker 2: first issue of Sandman, which was much more trying to
22:45
Speaker 2: tie it in with the DC universe. There's a brief
22:47
Speaker 2: Batman moment where it shows the bat Cave with these
22:51
Speaker 2: oversized pennies and like there's a t Rex or something,
22:55
Speaker 2: and I guess that's a reference to this old timey
22:58
Speaker 2: version of the Batcave. And I'm only just now putting
23:01
Speaker 2: that together because I was very confused when I first
23:03
Speaker 2: saw that, because I was not familiar with the early
23:06
Speaker 2: Batman comics and that lore.
23:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's sort of a I think it's
23:11
Speaker 1: a nod to trophies he's collected from. Weird supervillains. DC
23:16
Speaker 1: also went crazy on super villains that maybe don't necessarily
23:22
Speaker 1: have an extraordinary ability, but they have gadgets or they're
23:26
Speaker 1: just really hung up on something, like a mad Hatter
23:29
Speaker 1: or calendar Man.
23:30
Speaker 2: Calendar Man. Calendar Man that sounds like the dullest supervillain ever.
23:36
Speaker 2: He is like really in the leap year, Like what's
23:38
Speaker 2: his beef? He is?
23:41
Speaker 1: He commits crimes that are like holiday themed. Okay, are
23:47
Speaker 1: making this up? I swear, dude, this and this is thing.
23:52
Speaker 1: There was a reboot of calendar Man that turned him
23:55
Speaker 1: into a serial killer, which was darker, made a lot
23:58
Speaker 1: more sense.
23:59
Speaker 2: Apparently, the new James Gunn bat Superman. That's being really
24:04
Speaker 2: divisive already. Some of the early reviews some people were
24:07
Speaker 2: not a fan. But it does apparently lean more into
24:11
Speaker 2: some of these absurd kind of early kind of schlocky
24:14
Speaker 2: comicsy stuff. It's got like Mister Terrific and a lot
24:17
Speaker 2: of these like sort of lesser you know, characters that
24:20
Speaker 2: maybe you're not familiar with. I want you to see it.
24:22
Speaker 2: There's a dog, apparently a super dog. I did just
24:24
Speaker 2: want to say, Ben, I thought I heard a really
24:26
Speaker 2: interesting quote from the singer whose her name is Aurora,
24:30
Speaker 2: and she's a very quirky, little Icelandic lady and very
24:34
Speaker 2: byork asked. But in her own right, she's got, she's talented.
24:37
Speaker 2: She had this to say, how come super villains are
24:41
Speaker 2: always trying to change things and superheroes are always trying
24:45
Speaker 2: to keep things the same? Oh that's great. I love that.
24:48
Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty good.
24:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think Bill Finger would like that.
24:55
Speaker 2: I think he would do.
24:57
Speaker 1: So Bill goes on to create Scarecrow, the Penguin Commissioner Gordon,
25:02
Speaker 1: and of course Batman's sidekick Robin the Boy won he
25:07
Speaker 1: needed a bit of a Watson figure, didn't he Yeah, yeah,
25:11
Speaker 1: I think you're right. And this is where we start
25:13
Speaker 1: to see these creators come to not blows, but it
25:18
Speaker 1: come to a divergence point our buddy Caine. He says, look, Robin,
25:23
Speaker 1: his origin should parallel the origin of Batman, and then
25:27
Speaker 1: Finger says, I hear you, but let's make his parents
25:32
Speaker 1: circus performers. They can still get murdered. I know that's
25:36
Speaker 1: important for you, but they're murdered during a trapeze act. Okay, cool,
25:41
Speaker 1: a bit of a sart distill at mishap.
25:43
Speaker 2: It's true. And if there is one version of that
25:47
Speaker 2: that I will always remember, it is from a very
25:50
Speaker 2: bad Batman movie Batman and Robin. But I do remember
25:53
Speaker 2: the way it's depicted his parents, you know, eating in
25:57
Speaker 2: on the trapeze.
25:58
Speaker 1: Is that the one where they gave the Is that
26:01
Speaker 1: the one where they put nipples on the suits?
26:03
Speaker 2: They put nipples on the suits, nipples on a breastplate.
26:05
Speaker 2: It's true, all of those, Yon Debunt. I think that's
26:09
Speaker 2: the guy that directed it. I'm not mistaken.
26:12
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's tough to work in entertainment, so making
26:15
Speaker 1: movies is hard. Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic.
26:20
Speaker 2: No, sorry, it is Joel Schumacher. He's the one who
26:25
Speaker 2: did the nipples on the batsuit Batman movies.
26:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's tough to work in entertainment. It's making
26:32
Speaker 1: and making a movie is hard. H So back to
26:36
Speaker 1: Kane and Finger. Finger says, look, Robin is the outgrowth
26:40
Speaker 1: of a conversation I have with Bob Bob Kine uh
26:43
Speaker 1: and he describes the excellent comparison you made earlier. He says,
26:48
Speaker 1: Batman is a combination of Douglas Fairbanks and Sherlock Holmes.
26:51
Speaker 1: Holmes has a Watson, and this is what sticks out.
26:56
Speaker 1: Finger is not necessarily chasing the best story here, He's
27:00
Speaker 1: chasing a practical problem. He says, look, Batman doesn't have
27:05
Speaker 1: anyone to talk to.
27:06
Speaker 2: Do we not have an Alfred yet? At this point,
27:08
Speaker 2: we don't have an Alfred? Y interesting?
27:10
Speaker 1: Okay, you know that's a great question. I'm not sure
27:13
Speaker 1: where we have an Alfred just yet. But we know
27:16
Speaker 1: that Alfred is usually in weighing manor right, or in
27:21
Speaker 1: the batcave. So when Batman's out busting heads and doing investigations,
27:26
Speaker 1: he's always having an interior monologue. And Fingers like, we
27:30
Speaker 1: got to get this guy someone to talk to, because.
27:33
Speaker 2: It would appear that Robin came before Alfred, so he
27:35
Speaker 2: literally had nobody. Yeah, he was all alone in his
27:38
Speaker 2: giant mansion.
27:39
Speaker 1: And also Robin is great marketing for the demographic right
27:44
Speaker 1: of circus performers. Speaking of circuses, let's go to the
27:57
Speaker 1: clown Prints of Crime, one of the most well known
28:01
Speaker 1: comic book villains of all time and arguably a dark
28:07
Speaker 1: mirror of Batman because he is brilliant. He also loves gadgets,
28:11
Speaker 1: and he also has no superhuman powers.
28:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm really into the imagery. I haven't read
28:17
Speaker 2: a ton of them. I've read a few of the stories.
28:19
Speaker 2: But there is a alternate universe version of the Joker
28:24
Speaker 2: that I believe is called the One Who Laughs or
28:27
Speaker 2: something along those lines. Maybe that's the name of the series.
28:30
Speaker 2: But he's got like he's all sm m'ed out and
28:33
Speaker 2: has like spikes on around his eyes. He looks like
28:36
Speaker 2: a freakin hell Raiser character.
28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the dark version of Bruce Wayne who got
28:44
Speaker 1: poisoned by Jokers. Joker gas his evil laughing gas, and
28:50
Speaker 1: it drove that Bruce Wayne crazy.
28:52
Speaker 2: Right, And it's the Batman who Laughs, is what it's
28:54
Speaker 2: called so obviously a reference to this whole situation where
28:59
Speaker 2: inspiration was taken from a film version of Alexandra Duma
29:05
Speaker 2: and Victor Hugo. It was like believe a silent film.
29:12
Speaker 2: And Sir, I think I'm getting a little confused here
29:14
Speaker 2: because there are some overlapping versions of this. The what
29:17
Speaker 2: they're talking about is a series of English translations of
29:21
Speaker 2: Alexander Duma and Victor Hugo, and the volume that they
29:27
Speaker 2: had they were referring to was called The Man Who Laughs,
29:30
Speaker 2: which is originally published under the title By the Order
29:33
Speaker 2: of the King.
29:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, and by this point there have been some adaptations
29:38
Speaker 1: of the show. We know Fingers looking at the book,
29:40
Speaker 1: but he's also probably aware of him and Kane both
29:44
Speaker 1: of the film adaptation, which I think we're both more
29:47
Speaker 1: familiar with, the nineteen twenty eight The Man Who.
29:50
Speaker 2: Laughs and he looks like the joker, I mean the
29:52
Speaker 2: actor portraying him here. It's a German expressionist film and
29:56
Speaker 2: looks at it. I mean, it's very Cabinet of Doctor
29:59
Speaker 2: Kaligari type vibes by Carl Lemley and the actor portraying
30:06
Speaker 2: this character is named Conrad Vitz and he has this
30:11
Speaker 2: rictus grin, and even the same hairline and kind of
30:15
Speaker 2: puffy hairdoo that the joker ultimately had, not green though,
30:20
Speaker 2: or wearing makeup joker.
30:22
Speaker 1: Makeup right, No, he's just he's had an operation that
30:27
Speaker 1: fixes that rictus smile. Creepy, it's super creepy. I'm into it. Also,
30:33
Speaker 1: Bill Finger is only looking at these comparisons or inspirations because,
30:39
Speaker 1: according to him, he talked about the idea of a
30:43
Speaker 1: clown prince of crime with Bob Kine. Bob made a
30:47
Speaker 1: sketch that did not look like a joker. It looked
30:51
Speaker 1: more like a clown, and so he and Bob worked together.
30:55
Speaker 1: He gave Bob this picture the man who laughs, and
30:59
Speaker 1: then Bob takes as a as an inspiration or starting
31:03
Speaker 1: point of reference is the word we'd use in art,
31:06
Speaker 1: and he starts working over the face. He says, okay,
31:10
Speaker 1: he'll be a little bit clown like so, white face,
31:13
Speaker 1: red lips, green hair, but not all the way clown.
31:16
Speaker 1: You know, he has a regular.
31:18
Speaker 2: Nose exactly, no, exactly, not the Hong Kong knows of
31:23
Speaker 2: classic circus clowns. Finger has this kind of scrap book idea,
31:29
Speaker 2: you know, little black book situation full of random facts,
31:32
Speaker 2: newspaper clippings, and notes that he could use in future
31:35
Speaker 2: Batman stories. He would ride the bus every day to
31:38
Speaker 2: get where he was gone and take in the New
31:40
Speaker 2: York city scapes, which further fueled the inspiration for Gotham.
31:45
Speaker 2: The Wayne's family's tragic demise and the clashes between Batman
31:50
Speaker 2: and the underbelly of Gotham were absolutely a product of
31:55
Speaker 2: this solitary existence that that Finger led.
31:59
Speaker 1: Exactly, and this state of isolation is Fingers inspiration.
32:06
Speaker 2: In some ways.
32:07
Speaker 1: This gives Cain the opportunity to fully put himself in
32:12
Speaker 1: the limelight. So you know, there are some creative duos
32:16
Speaker 1: where one maybe Empire of the Sun is a good comparison.
32:21
Speaker 1: Remember that band from Perth. Two guys, Yeah, dancing kind
32:27
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, but one guy is very much in
32:30
Speaker 1: the forefront, right, and he's the he's the big theatrical
32:34
Speaker 1: draw and they're friends, they're great musicians. They just have
32:38
Speaker 1: a different, different approach to the public. And that's what
32:41
Speaker 1: we see with Cain and Finger. Finger is kind of
32:45
Speaker 1: hiding away and Cain is walking into the limelight and
32:49
Speaker 1: talking about Batman, right, And it seems that over time
32:53
Speaker 1: Cain starts to purposely push Finger further into the background, which.
33:01
Speaker 2: Is kind of the borderline beginning to push him out.
33:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also ungrateful because Batman wouldn't exist without Finger, right.
33:11
Speaker 1: He figured out a lot of things that were key
33:14
Speaker 1: to Batman's success. But Kane was effective with his fans.
33:18
Speaker 1: He would show up in an expensive suit or get this, folks,
33:21
Speaker 1: a cowl.
33:23
Speaker 2: And he uh.
33:24
Speaker 1: He wrote a self aggrandizing autobiography that kind of reminds
33:30
Speaker 1: me of the way Edgar Allan Poe would write very
33:34
Speaker 1: high faluting explanations of his poems like never More and
33:39
Speaker 1: so on.
33:40
Speaker 2: It's worth a read if you would know for sure,
33:42
Speaker 2: I'll check it out.
33:44
Speaker 1: Apparently, though, he does cross over to the dark side
33:47
Speaker 1: because Cain's king becomes accused of passing off other people's
33:52
Speaker 1: oil paintings of Batman as his own birth.
33:55
Speaker 2: This is again another parallel from the Peluca story. That
33:58
Speaker 2: guy was taking a lot of credit where credit was
34:01
Speaker 2: most certainly not due. But you know, his actions ultimately
34:06
Speaker 2: led to him being in the catbird seat. As far
34:08
Speaker 2: as you know, the financial successes of Batman as a
34:14
Speaker 2: piece of intellectual property that would prove to be incredibly valuable.
34:20
Speaker 2: Andrea puts it that Kane villainously executed deals and negotiations
34:25
Speaker 2: with the explicit purpose of keeping Finger out of said deals.
34:31
Speaker 2: Per comic book historian Arlen Schumer. Unfortunately, the deal happened
34:36
Speaker 2: because Bob Kane had the lawyer father, and Bill Finger
34:39
Speaker 2: was shy. Bob Kane went in and his father made
34:43
Speaker 2: sure that his name was on it. That's how Bill
34:45
Speaker 2: Finger ended up getting shunted away from his co creation. Terrible.
34:49
Speaker 1: You hate to see it, you know, because so much
34:51
Speaker 1: of creativity is collaboration. Dassie Comics said, Okay, we'd love this.
34:58
Speaker 2: We need our own super.
35:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need some more of this, and so they say,
35:05
Speaker 1: we're going to publish the Batman comics for you, and
35:08
Speaker 1: Cain make sure that he is the only one who
35:12
Speaker 1: gets to showcase Batman to DC. He's the guy who
35:16
Speaker 1: gets to talk with the big execs about this character,
35:20
Speaker 1: and under the advice of again his father, who is
35:22
Speaker 1: an attorney, he negotiates sole credit as the creator of
35:27
Speaker 1: Batman and a percentage of everything DC Comics may license
35:33
Speaker 1: the character on in the future. This is a gold mine.
35:37
Speaker 1: Batman works out. Cain amasses ten million dollars throughout his life,
35:43
Speaker 1: and in the same time, in doing so, he has
35:46
Speaker 1: sacrificed the guy who made him successful. His former pal
35:51
Speaker 1: Bill Finger is relegated to obscurity. Cain draws the comics.
35:56
Speaker 1: He also credits himself as the writer, and Finger is
35:59
Speaker 1: nothing more than a ghostwriter. Nobody really knew about this,
36:04
Speaker 1: you know, when they're reading comics at the time, they're
36:07
Speaker 1: just thinking, this Bill Kane guy. He's a real tour
36:10
Speaker 1: right in the comic world. And it's not till nineteen
36:13
Speaker 1: sixty five that Bill Finger gets named as co creator
36:18
Speaker 1: in something I didn't know existed, a fanzine dedicated to Batman.
36:24
Speaker 1: So not part of DC, just a guy named Jerry
36:27
Speaker 1: Bales who loves Batman so much that he makes a
36:30
Speaker 1: magazine about how he loves Batman. It's a little meta.
36:33
Speaker 2: It is Matta And just a quick mention, I'm a
36:36
Speaker 2: big fan of the podcast of the Ringer Network, like
36:39
Speaker 2: you know, The Big Picture and the Watch And if
36:42
Speaker 2: you want to get into some Batman deep dives, there's
36:46
Speaker 2: a podcast called The House of r that has an
36:49
Speaker 2: episode called literally the Batman Deep Dive, where Joanna Robinson,
36:54
Speaker 2: who's one of my favorite hosts on the network and
36:56
Speaker 2: her co host Mal dig deep into the history of
37:00
Speaker 2: DC comics and Gotham's underbelly.
37:04
Speaker 1: This is so weird because now you mentioned it, you
37:06
Speaker 1: inspired me just to check on the fly here on air,
37:10
Speaker 1: I found a list of multiple Batman podcasts twenty best
37:15
Speaker 1: Batman podcast. Wow, Holy RSS feed. I didn't know there
37:24
Speaker 1: were so many out there. Well, that's cool, man, Yeah,
37:26
Speaker 1: check it out. Let us know what you think. We
37:29
Speaker 1: know that by the mid nineteen sixties, as more audience
37:34
Speaker 1: members are learning about the existence of Bill Finger, we
37:39
Speaker 1: see that he makes a rare appearance in New York City.
37:43
Speaker 1: Actually people know about him because this notoriously shy guy
37:48
Speaker 1: does actually show up in public, and that's what inspires
37:53
Speaker 1: the digging into the story. He's at the New York
37:56
Speaker 1: City Comic Con and afterwards there's an article in this
38:00
Speaker 1: Batman fancy called if the Truth Be Known or a
38:03
Speaker 1: Finger in every plot, and it talks about how we
38:07
Speaker 1: were misled, how Cain was not the one man army
38:11
Speaker 1: of Batman, but did indeed have a lot of help
38:14
Speaker 1: from a guy you've never heard of named Bill Finger.
38:17
Speaker 2: And Cain responded with his own angry letter condemning Fingers
38:22
Speaker 2: claim to Batman, stating Bill Finger has given out the
38:26
Speaker 2: impression that he and not myself created the Batman, as
38:30
Speaker 2: well as Robin and all the other leading villains and characters.
38:33
Speaker 2: This statement is fraudulent and entirely untrue. This is myth.
38:37
Speaker 2: The truth is that Bill Finger is taking credit for
38:40
Speaker 2: much more than he deserves, and I refute much of
38:43
Speaker 2: his statements here in print.
38:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, he says, this is so Poluka. The only proof
38:51
Speaker 1: I need to back my statement is that if Bill
38:54
Speaker 1: co authored and conceive the idea, either with me or
38:57
Speaker 1: before me, then he would most certainly have a byeline
39:01
Speaker 1: on the strip along with my name. It's been twenty
39:05
Speaker 1: five years now, and truthfully, times sometimes blurs the memory,
39:08
Speaker 1: and it's difficult to separate at times, So that I
39:12
Speaker 1: cannot blame Bill too much. If at times his memory clouds,
39:17
Speaker 1: I'll say it, I don't you know what I know
39:19
Speaker 1: A letter writer thirteen or PG. Thirteen But what a dick.
39:24
Speaker 2: It is a move, for sure, But I just I
39:27
Speaker 2: do stand by. I do love old school letter feuds.
39:31
Speaker 2: Oh I love that you don't write like this anymore.
39:35
Speaker 1: If your insolence is borish and shall not stand and
39:39
Speaker 1: it shall not. Yes, Okay, there is a big problem
39:45
Speaker 1: here because that one article shouting out Finger is pretty
39:49
Speaker 1: much the only voice in the ocean. Yeah, misinformation, and
39:53
Speaker 1: Finger passes away in obscurity, very much isolated. In nineteen
39:58
Speaker 1: seventy four, as we mentioned, his heart gives out, Cain
40:02
Speaker 1: lives long enough to see the box office film adaptations
40:08
Speaker 1: of Batman.
40:10
Speaker 2: And it's banging depiction of Gotham City, which, as we know,
40:15
Speaker 2: you know, very much a product of the imagination of
40:20
Speaker 2: Finger and his solitary you know, journeys throughout New York
40:26
Speaker 2: City on the bus.
40:27
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what a beautiful image, you know. And I
40:30
Speaker 1: think we're both fans of being strangers in a strange land.
40:34
Speaker 1: I just love being out in an unfamiliar place and
40:37
Speaker 1: soaking it in anyway, for one reason or another, perhaps
40:40
Speaker 1: he's mellowing with age. Perhaps he sees the massive cinematic
40:47
Speaker 1: success of Batman. We don't know why, but Cain develops
40:52
Speaker 1: a guilty conscious of sorts, and he later says, Bill,
40:56
Speaker 1: Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer.
40:59
Speaker 1: Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of
41:01
Speaker 1: the Joker. That's the way I sum it up, and
41:04
Speaker 1: then he shouts out the man who laughs just like
41:06
Speaker 1: we did. And he's saying this because he wants people
41:10
Speaker 1: to realize that he and Bill created the Joker, not
41:14
Speaker 1: this guy Jerry Robinson.
41:16
Speaker 2: So only now does he give credit where credit to
41:18
Speaker 2: dude to like get rid of the secret third thing
41:22
Speaker 2: right exactly.
41:24
Speaker 1: And he he says that if he could do this
41:28
Speaker 1: all over again, he would give Bill Finger his due
41:32
Speaker 1: credit on Batman. And he says, now that my longtime
41:36
Speaker 1: friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill
41:39
Speaker 1: never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was
41:43
Speaker 1: an unsung hero. I often tell my wife, if I
41:45
Speaker 1: could go back fifteen years before he died, I would
41:48
Speaker 1: like to say, I'll put your name on it now.
41:51
Speaker 1: You deserve it.
41:52
Speaker 2: I'm big of you. Yeah, I will.
41:54
Speaker 1: Not million dollars, Yeah, not a pauper's great, but certainly
42:00
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, yeah, not terrible.
42:03
Speaker 2: But you know, DC did eventually follow suit. They refused
42:07
Speaker 2: for a long time to credit Finger, but in twenty twelve,
42:10
Speaker 2: after the release of a biographical graphic novel Bill the
42:14
Speaker 2: Boy Wonder about Fingers life by a French author Mark
42:19
Speaker 2: Tyler and Nobleman. Also a Hulu documentary that was released
42:23
Speaker 2: based on Nobleman's book. DC finally gave in and decided
42:27
Speaker 2: to give credit to Finger as co creator to Batman.
42:30
Speaker 2: After seventy six years, Fingers name does finally appear on
42:34
Speaker 2: the cover of every Batman comics issue in future TV
42:37
Speaker 2: and film adaptations that would be released from that point on.
42:40
Speaker 2: So a bit of a happy ending there, if not
42:43
Speaker 2: in dude's lifetime.
42:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, which happens so often in the creative arts. You know,
42:49
Speaker 1: we have a joke in the world of writers, how
42:53
Speaker 1: do you become a successful writer?
42:56
Speaker 2: Diem h. Yeah. Unfortunately it is the same with a
42:59
Speaker 2: lot times with painters, and you know, many brilliant people
43:04
Speaker 2: who have not who are not appreciated in their lifetime.
43:06
Speaker 2: But you know, so it goes. In twenty seventeen, Finger
43:10
Speaker 2: is honored with a street being named after him in
43:13
Speaker 2: New York City at easton one hundred and ninety second
43:15
Speaker 2: Street Way uptown between Grand Concourse and Valentine Avenue was
43:20
Speaker 2: renamed Bill Finger Way.
43:23
Speaker 1: Which here's what I like about this, that is such
43:26
Speaker 1: an interesting name for the Bronx. Is the Bronx that
43:30
Speaker 1: you will you would see that street name and then
43:33
Speaker 1: if you look it up you will learn the hidden
43:36
Speaker 1: history of Batman.
43:37
Speaker 2: That's true.
43:38
Speaker 1: That's kind of cool. I'm down with that. No, that's cool.
43:40
Speaker 2: I like it when they named streets after creative people,
43:42
Speaker 2: Like there's the Beastie Boys. I want to say, got
43:45
Speaker 2: a street in New York named after them recently, So
43:48
Speaker 2: there you go. Fingers name, first reported by the South
43:52
Speaker 2: Bronx blog Welcome to the Bronx, appears blocks from Poe Park,
43:58
Speaker 2: where Canaan Finger would sometimes hang out to talk about
44:01
Speaker 2: Dark Knight business and mythos.
44:04
Speaker 1: Oh and this gives us some breaking news. This happened
44:08
Speaker 1: just yesterday week recording on Thursday, July tenth. But Jack Kirby,
44:14
Speaker 1: the legendary creator for Marvel, he just had two streets
44:18
Speaker 1: named after him.
44:19
Speaker 2: Oh, like this week.
44:22
Speaker 1: Maybe that's because the Fantastic four film is coming out soon.
44:25
Speaker 2: I think that must be true. Man, there is an
44:27
Speaker 2: origin story Fantastic form would be coming out that looks
44:30
Speaker 2: like a lot of fun. Agreed, And we hope you've.
44:33
Speaker 1: Had a lot of fun traveling down this road with
44:37
Speaker 1: us through the hidden history of Gotham and Batman and
44:40
Speaker 1: the Man.
44:41
Speaker 2: Who laughs big.
44:42
Speaker 1: Thanks to our super producer Max Williams, who will be
44:46
Speaker 1: returning tat It Up Big. Thanks to our guest superproducer
44:49
Speaker 1: Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan, who Else, who Else?
44:52
Speaker 2: Oh Boy, Chris Frasciotas Eve, Jeff cots Here in Spirit,
44:55
Speaker 2: Jonathan Strick on the Quistar, aj Mohammas, Jacob's The Puzzler.
45:00
Speaker 1: And of course our dear rude Dudes of Ridiculous Crime.
45:03
Speaker 1: If you dig us, you'll dig them. Join us for
45:07
Speaker 1: our classic coming out this weekend, as well as our
45:11
Speaker 1: further adventures in the weeks and days to come.
45:16
Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
45:26
Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
45:29
Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.