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Dean Dwyer: Responding To Forceful Opposition & Intolerance To Christianity · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:02
  Welcome to Worldview Matters. Discussing controversial issues. Discerning current events. Defending biblical Christianity. No topic. Off limits. And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
• 0:20
  Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing the podcast. We also obviously appreciate your prayers. We're going down under again for today's guest. I love this brother, Pastor Dean Dwyer, Iser Street Baptist Church, Toowoomba, Australia. We're going to be talking about some Christian concerns today.
• 0:42
  On That Continent with Brother Dean. Thank you so much for your time today. Good morning to you. It's afternoon here when we're recording. It's morning there. Good to see you as always.
• 0:52
  Likewise, David, thank you for the opportunity. Always appreciate being able to talk with you and all of your listeners and viewers. Yeah, we're talking about an important topic in Australia, but also in America. I hear with our First Amendment, even though we have the freedoms we do, there is definitely some hostility against or toward the biblical worldview and against Christians and discrimination, just different things like that. But you guys are at a whole new level.
• 1:20
  I want to point everybody to an article Dean put up at harbingersdaily.com under Dean's page there. Here's the title. Could the private prayers of Australians now result in a knock on the door from the government? When I read that, I'm going, okay, is this just clickbait? Is this just something to get attention? But then when I started going through this article, I'm going,
• 1:46
  I was going, wait a minute. They really, really want to kind of control you and even what you believe and pray about. So let's walk through this, Dean. First of all, we've talked before in this program about the differences in the governments here, the government there. And your country might be more described as anti-Christian or much less Christian.
• 2:13
  For those of you that didn't catch those past episodes where we talked about this, give us a general sense of what it's like there in Australia for a Bible-believing Christian.
• 2:25
  Sure. I think historically, Australia would describe itself as a Christian nation. And certainly a hundred years ago, that probably would have been largely true. But as we've seen, David, the secular progressive movement work its way through many Western nations, then I think we would put Australia on par with the UK and Canada in terms of how it's developed.
• 2:49
  allowed the enforcement of certain social movements throughout the political discourse and allowed then social movements with a humanist or secular progressive point of view to really use the power of government to erode Christian freedom in the public square. And so what that's led to, unfortunately, is therefore an erosion of Christian freedom
• 3:11
  in this country. And one of the probably the big obstacles that we have in Australia is that religious protection is just enforced through a patchwork of different legislation. So there's not necessarily one overriding piece of legislation that we could turn to in order to protect that freedom, that
• 3:32
  is usually enshrined constitutionally in many other nations. So it's really a difficult situation that we currently find ourselves in because there's the prioritisation of certain other government influences, and as I said, particularly from a humanist point of view, so that they're really starting to push the Christian worldview out of political discourse, out of the public life, certainly out of the schools, and...
• 3:58
  And so what that's starting to create, unfortunately, is a real sense that we will abide Christians so long as they keep their views locked within their four walls and keep their views locked within their inner thought life. That's OK. That's currently tolerated by the government and certain others within social movements. It's when...
• 4:20
  to their thinking, if we're stepping outside of those arbitrary boundaries, that is now where they're starting to become increasingly hostile. So if Christians act within their limitations that are imposed by these movements, so keep your thoughts to yourself, keep your worship within your buildings, they've generally got no problem.
• 4:42
  But this is where we see the intersection, David, isn't it, of the fact that we are mandated by God to go and tell people about the gospel. And naturally, that's going to conflict with a lot of the movements which we see in the world. And this is where we're starting to see a lot of friction points.
• 5:00
  There's so many things I want to follow up on based on what you just shared. First of all, there are parallels to America. There's this expectation of Christians being silent and keeping your faith behind church walls. But that's a problem, isn't it? For those of us who are Bible-believing Christians who know what the Bible teaches about the Great Commission, about being salt and light in our communities, our culture, our countries, ambassadors for Christ. What does it mean to represent Jesus?
• 5:28
  We can't do that silently in our homes or just in church on Sunday. But let's go back to something you shared about, you know, I think you mentioned children, the school system there. We have our own issues here in America. But you quote in your article, Deuteronomy 6, which is important to go back to, because this kind of opposition to the biblical worldview, when governments come against Jesus—
• 5:54
  and his followers, us, and how we are to live our lives, that affects education, that affects how we raise our children. Deuteronomy 6, 5, you quoted in here, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. But if you go on and read verses 6 and 7, friends, as a reminder for those of you that may need it, who are parents or grandparents,
• 6:18
  You can still speak into your children's or grandchildren's lives. It says in Deuteronomy 6, These words which I'm commanding you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons, and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
• 6:43
  In other words, instruct your children in the ways of God and the Word of God at all times, because they're going to need it. And when government comes in and says, no, no, no, no, no, and here it's all different things, all the major institutions, not just government. There in Australia, you have more of an issue with the government, and they're wanting to enforce some sort of punishment on parents who want to raise their kids like this. Go ahead and take us to the next level of this, the next step in your article, Dean.
• 7:13
  Sure. So the system that God set up throughout the world is the parent-child relationship. And I mentioned that in the article. Now, from a humanistic point of view, people would see that as just a reproductive biological process where mankind continues without any fixed truth, without any fixed hope. But we know that that's...
• 7:34
  contrary to what the Bible says. And so God's system of training up a child in the way that he should go was God's way of transgenerationally passing on his truth to the next generation. And so we see this, particularly, as you said, through Deuteronomy. We see that in Proverbs 22.6, train up a child in the way that he should go.
• 7:56
  And so this was God's intention that through transgenerational teaching, the next generation would not depart from God's fixed truth. Now, as we know, in this day and age, we've got different influences on our children. And what the enemy sought to do is break that chain of transgenerational teaching. So in order to do that, he's brought in different influences. We've mentioned government institutions.
• 8:24
  We have the media who is trying to break the chain of transgenerational teaching. We also have the influence of social media and the enemy himself and, of course, other influences culturally. And so that's really what's been the intention is to break that chain so that the next generation knows less about God and therefore is not as committed or dedicated to God. And so this has been the intention of transgenerational teaching
• 8:51
  certain institutions and definitely government from a teaching point of view. And we see that particularly in Australia through the government education system, because there has been a concerted effort to remove a lot of the Christian influence from the government. In my home state of Queensland, there is still...
• 9:11
  legislative protected measures in place that allows us as Christians to go in and talk to children about the gospel. But certainly in some of the other states, that protection's been removed. So the last vestige of hope for the kids in terms of us being able to share the gospel within a government-approved education system is slowly fading.
• 9:34
  And unfortunately, what we see as unbelief spreads throughout society, kids are not at all being exposed to the gospel and being exposed to the word of God. And certainly we've had reported back from a lot of religious instruction teachers that we have is that.
• 9:52
  a lot of kids didn't even know that Jesus existed. They just thought, unfortunately, he was a word that you use when something went wrong in your life. Yeah, that's exactly right. So they're shocked to find that there is a man, the God-man named Jesus. So we're really in some dire straits, and we put that obviously at the foot of the enemy more so, but certainly the lack of...
• 10:20
  direction when it comes to the government in terms of being able to
• 10:25
  get into the schools, and allow the truth to be told. Again, it's just really startling how similar things are here in America in the school system. It's not illegal to share Jesus or the gospel in schools, but it's practically everything else goes, but they are really offended, and teachers really take offense to that and want to silence any Christian student
• 10:52
  Now I'm generalizing. This is not 100% of teachers, but that system is certainly not built for the freedom of expression when it comes to the biblical worldview because ABC, anything but Christianity, anything but Christ. So Dean, in five letters...
• 11:10
  describes the difference. Five letters describes the difference in what the government, even there in Australia, would allow you to share versus, you know, what, like, we want to share the Bible, of course, and the love of God. But LGBTQ, five letters, LGBTQ. Yes. So now, in your article, you talk about the laws. There are laws against doing things that could harm your child.
• 11:37
  Okay, now slowly walk us through this, Dean, because I think with the bullet points in your article, I think some people will have a hard time believing this, but go ahead and share the difference there and what their restrictions are.
• 11:53
  Sure. So it is hard to believe, David, because essentially what is happening is that in the state of Victoria, which is one of our southern states, and the state that is most known for, unfortunately, religious discrimination and persecution, is the state of Victoria.
• 12:10
  But what they've now done is that they've started to war game certain scenarios around what's appropriate, particularly in the home. So this isn't just about what's appropriate in the public square. This is the relationship they're trying to intrude between parent and child. So they've war game certain scenarios and it gets a bit comical because there's different examples of what.
• 12:31
  what you do in this scenario, what you do in that scenario, but what it comes down to is prayer. So again, as you said, what they're aiming to do is, in their words, protect children from harm, particularly in relation to conversations held between parent and child concerning sexual orientation and gender identity. So what's happened recently is that a number of years ago, it would have only been about four to five years ago,
• 12:58
  Victoria introduced some legislation which was aimed at the suppression of sexual orientation. And so one of the most targeted groups, of course, was Christianity, because Christianity is...
• 13:13
  very much to some of the social movements around sexual orientation and gender identity. So what they've aimed to do, and they've released a booklet recently, and there's a title, there's a section entitled, What Doesn't Work?
• 13:29
  And so what they're trying to do is give quote unquote advice to parents on how they should be conducting certain conversations in the home. So under the title, what doesn't work? This is what they say. And I'll quote this directly. It's not possible to stop someone from being LGBTQA. People who are LGBTQA aren't sick or broken and don't need to be fixed. Okay.
• 13:57
  And so it's from that position then they say to parents, you've got to be careful about how you are praying for and with your child because you may be causing them harm if you are directing them to what we see as what the Bible tells, the truth of the Bible concerning.
• 14:21
  Sexual orientation, gender identity, the creation of man, made in the image of God, all of those very important points that we derive from the truth of the Bible. But again, it's the intrusion. It's the fact that the government wants a place at the dinner table to moderate the conversation now and moderate the prayer between parents and children.
• 14:45
  Wow. So they're starting with the premise, the worldview, that God does not exist, sin does not exist, maybe at least the sexual sins of being homosexual or lesbian and transgenderism. That is normal.
• 15:04
  As you said, it does not need to be fixed. They do not need to be fixed. They do not need to be changed because that is normal, natural, good, healthy. So that's what they're starting with. So anything that would come against that, speaking against that, or even praying for some—
• 15:22
  then you're going to all of a sudden come against the government, the strong arm of the law. This is really concerning. And Dean, can we maybe transition over to the Australian Christian Freedom Index and talk about a couple of the stats there? You sent me this link, and here's just a couple stats. And the website is australianchristianfreedomindex.org.au.
• 15:48
  92% of respondents, and there are over 10,000 who responded to this survey, 92% of respondents say it's riskier today to affirm Christian beliefs publicly than it was just five years ago.
• 16:06
  92 percent. That's eye-opening. And then since 2000, so in 26 years, 74 laws have been passed in Australia restricting Christian freedoms. And anything you want to elaborate on based on those two stats, Dean, or something else from this Freedom Index that you'd like to share? Go ahead.
• 16:32
  Well, it was really a landmark report and survey, and we very much appreciate those who put the effort in to prepare this report. What it's given, David, is some very important statistics, probably eye-opening statistics. I mean, we feel some of the increasing intrusion and the erosion of our beliefs in Australia, but I think it was eye-opening from the point of view that it really does give meat to the fact that
• 16:57
  This is real and this is changing at a very rapid pace. And there were some interesting parts of the report and which links back to what we've just spoken about in terms of prayer, because there was one respondent. His name was withheld, but he's a pastor and he said that he's involved in a prayer ministry. Yeah.
• 17:17
  and that he was unable to minister in areas of sexuality because, going back to some of the legislation that's prevalent in Victoria, even if a person who would identify as LGBT, even if they consent to prayer from a pastor or a parent or another person,
• 17:41
  that person is still not allowed to pray for them that they would change from their sexual orientation. And that's a really concerning point because the government is basically saying you cannot be a willing participant
• 17:57
  in that prayer because they believe it creates a power imbalance where the person is attempting to please the other person by allowing them to pray for and direct a change in their sexual orientation. So that was one of the concerning testimonies which came out of the report and it really does validate the concerns we have with some of the Victorian legislation. But,
• 18:23
  Again, what the report highlighted as well is that 49% of people had said that they feel there's a freedom to conduct their ministry or worship freely within their worship buildings. But as soon as you leave those four walls, then the persecution really amps up. So again, it does validate what we've all been feeling. Now, again,
• 18:50
  This has been sent to our governments in Australia. Whether anything comes of it, we're not sure. But what it does do is that it allows us certain statistics and reporting to be able to go to some of the government institutions and outline the concerns with the data, which is freely available. And what was important as well, David, is that
• 19:17
  There's a fellow by the name of Floyd Brobbell who works with Voice of the Martyrs, and he has an eight stage persecution scale. And Australia is at number four, which is discrimination, but has isolated incidents of stage five as well, which is attack. And we know that people have been attacked in America as well for sharing the gospel.
• 19:40
  What's concerning and alarming is that there's only three stages after that, and that is detainment, torture and martyrdom. So Australia is at level five and there is only three stages above that, and it gets increasingly serious. So it's a report that's been important for Australian Christians. But whether governments and government representatives pay attention, we're not sure at this stage.
• 20:03
  Boy, I'm glad we're having this conversation, but it is quite disturbing because of the increased hostility against Christians in the biblical worldview. And it has almost become accepted now to not only disagree, because they don't want to debate anymore. Generally, they don't know.
• 20:22
  why they believe what they believe. They just know their talking points on the left or some anti-Christian lies or something like that. And they'll just act. They sell activism and protests. And sometimes they justify violence. And that's what it leads to, sadly. So we're in a very different place in Australia.
• 20:42
  America is not too far behind, friends, and it's sad to say that. We've already seen things in our own country. I mean, the assassination of Charlie Kirk and many other instances where someone just wants to pray outside a murder mill, an abortion business, on the sidewalk.
• 20:59
  And in one case, I believe this woman was praying silently. She was just there. I mean, they called her a radical protester. And here's this 70-year-old woman, and she was arrested. This is in our country. And so, Dean, we've got six minutes left, wherever you want to go from here. But this is very important.
• 21:18
  To not scare people or be sensational, but to—we need to be discerning, but we also can't back down from the truth and to love others enough to continue to share the gospel. Go ahead.
• 21:33
  Absolutely, David. And if you read the book of 2 Timothy, I mean, Paul's conversational letter to Timothy, again, may have scared Timothy in some ways, but it was to prepare him. And Paul very much laid out.
• 21:49
  what Timothy could expect as a young pastor, and it didn't paint a good picture of what Timothy was going to anticipate as his ministry continued, particularly in terms of apostasy and some of the evil and the false doctrines and false teachers, etc. So it's an important point you raise, David, is that...
• 22:05
  This isn't meant to scare Christians. And certainly we don't want to create a climate of timidity within Christianity. Quite the opposite, really. What we want to say is that we stand upon the truth. And that's a really important point. We stand upon the truth. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit. We stand on the side of truth. And so what's important is that even though the persecution has come,
• 22:32
  and likely will come, this is an unavoidable part of our faith. We are going to conflict with the worldview because the two are antithetical. And this is what the report very much highlights. And to go back to your point on abortion, there was another testimony within the report where there was a medical student who was doing their rotation. And in a hospital, a senior clinician
• 23:02
  Now that's alarming because you are saying that anybody who values life should not be a doctor. And so this is unfortunately the worldview that exists in all sectors of society. Now, from our point of view, we look at the evil within the abortion movement. And you've spoken and written about that extensively. And that remains an important point. That...
• 23:32
  For the secular progressive movement, and particularly from a humanistic point of view, if people are not getting Genesis 1-1 right, then that skews their entire worldview from the outset. And they come to these different conclusions, which are...
• 23:48
  abortion, sexual orientation and gender identity, worldviews around the promotion of wickedness and sexual immorality. So this is why, to a degree, the church, I think, still needs to get back to the basics and get back to Genesis 1 and start to teach again the importance of understanding the creation account and being made in the image of God
• 24:18
  Because one of the points that came out of the Victorian advice to parents was that they wanted parents to reinforce that people are made perfect the way that they are. And we know that that's not true because of the curse. We know that because of the fall and the sin nature. So...
• 24:36
  Again, there's a clash of worldviews there. And unfortunately, what's happening is that the government and the secular progressive worldview is winning because they've got the loudest voices. And unfortunately, as Christians continue to retreat, people may feel that they feel safer within the churches, within their inner thought life. But what it's allowing is unfortunately a vacuum there, which is being filled with this evil agenda.
• 25:07
  And I want to just mention something you said, that they're winning not because they have the truth, but because they have the loudest voices and secularism. And the media is run by radical leftists and secularists.
• 25:22
  and those who oppose Christianity and don't have a biblical worldview, the school system, the media, a lot of corporations, Hollywood, a lot in our government too, but over there as well. So they have the loud voices. Maybe they have some control or power. They do not have the truth.
• 25:39
  on their side like we do. Two minutes left, Dean. I want to focus just really briefly on an alarming statement at the very end of your article at Harbinger's Daily. Parents now find themselves, faith leaders and parents now find themselves the victims of arbitrary limitations that permit the government a place at their dinner table, the dinner table of families.
• 26:05
  this is essentially what's happening. They want to run your life, not just out in the public, but they want to affect your beliefs and who you pray for, how you raise up your children. Dean, last minute and a half, just your final thoughts, please.
• 26:20
  That's right. And that's what governments are doing. That's what the secular progressive left is doing as well. They see their values as neutral, and therefore they see Christian values as harmful. And this is really where we're getting the conflict and the friction. That's where it's born from.
• 26:36
  But what also is concerning is within Christianity, unfortunately what we've seen as cases have gone to court is that as certain Christian institutions have...
• 26:51
  watered down their beliefs or if they've abandoned or softened their stance on doctrinal belief. What that's created, unfortunately, is a climate where the court interprets that as them just holding on to long-term prejudices rather than having certain doctrinal beliefs which are immovable. So unfortunately, where they think they have allowed themselves to escape persecution or lawfare, as we call it, to a degree...
• 27:20
  fundamentally what it's done is that the courts have interpreted that in such a way as to say, well, it can't be doctrinal belief because you've softened your stance. Therefore, because it's a prejudice, we're going to rule in the favour of the opposing party. So what it's done is for those who really want to stand solidly on biblical truth and on doctrinal stances, it's undermined our position and it's going to lead, unfortunately, to more lost cases in the courts as well.
• 27:49
  I think you summed it up by saying a clash of worldviews, and if it's not going to change, we are continuing to see it. But Dean Dwyer, thank you so much, you guys. You can read his articles at harbingersdaily.com. Brother, thank you again so very much. God bless you. Pleasure. Likewise. Thanks, David. Friends, keep sharing these. It's how it's getting out there, and we really appreciate it very much. God bless you, and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.