Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Book Reviews - The People Vs. Lee Harvey Oswald

Transcript

JFK Book Reviews - The People Vs. Lee Harvey Oswald · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: What's up? Everybody? Welcome to JFK Book Reviews, the division
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: of the oncoming podcast. I'm the Triple B, Big Bad Bob.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Here with me as always is Joe. What's up? Joe?
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey buddy, how's it going?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It is going for a Monday.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Mondays of the Worst.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, this is a take two if you will
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: for this, oh boy. Anyway, today, we've got a very
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: interesting book review for you today. It's a book. Uh well,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: it's a unique book and it's called The People Versus
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald by Sir Walter Brown, with a preface
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: by Martin Garbis Esquire. I don't know what Esquire means, Joe,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: but I'm guessing that's a very distinguished gentleman there.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I believe it's a lawyer, is eh?
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: I go?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Anyway, this bad boy right here. It's got a very
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: unique spine. It stands out, it jumps out at you
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: from the bookshelf. It's very bright colored white and red.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: And she is thick. Joe.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could tell by your spanking, yes, bam.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Joe, tell us a little bit about this here book.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Sure. So.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: It was first published in hardcover in September of nineteen
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: ninety two, and then there was a second edition paperback
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: which was published in January of nineteen ninety four by
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Carol and Graf Publishing. And before they even get into
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: the meat and potatoes of the book, you have a
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: sources and preface section as well as a prologue. It
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: consists of seventeen chapter as well as an epilogue at
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: the end, an appendix, two appendixes A and B, a
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: baby blography, and an index. So there's a lot there.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: You can get this book. There's actually a used copy
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: on Amazon for three dollars right now, but most of
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: the used copies you can get on sites like thrift
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: books a Books for about six seven dollars before shipping.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean this book puts Lee Harvey Oswald
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: on trial and what it would look like if it happened,
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: if he made it to trial, if he had not
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: been of course shot by Jack Ruby.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And and it's kind.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Of a fictional reenactment of the trial, complete with testimony
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: from over one hundred.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: And seventy five witnesses.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: And Rob I say, this book definitely has a hypothetical
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: what if conspiracy lean to it.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, it certainly does. Wal Brown is one of my
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: favorite conspiracy authors to read. I like his writing style.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: This book is no different. You know, it manages to
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: blend in, It manage to be informative and entertaining at
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the same time as you're reading it. You know, it's
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: not like one of these boring assassination research books. You know,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: it's not Destiny betrayed. It is the people versus Lee
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald. But that being said, you know, I think
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Walt Brown does a very interesting thing here by trying
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: to give us the hypothetical trial that Lee Harvey Oswald
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: was robbed from having. Now, this of course would have
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: been done in Texas. It was not a federal crime
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: to kill a president in nineteen sixty three, So this trial,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: hypothetical as it were, would have been held in Texas,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: likely not in Dallas, you know, because fair trial and all.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: You know, but that's one of those things you can outrun.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: So you might as well just have the damn thing
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: in Dallas, you know what I mean. Like, Yeah, no
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: matter where you go in Texas, it's not going to
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: be a fair trial if you will.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and it would have been. And you
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: think about the oj trial, it would have been the
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: trial of the century, maybe of the millennium.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: It would have been and nuts.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Well, you saw just how nuts it was when after
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: they caught him. I mean, imagine if they were praying
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: this motherfucker out every day for a trial for a month,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, Yeah, the press of the world would
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: have been descended upon wherever this hypothetical trial took place.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and to your point, it would have been it
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: would be hard to find a legit kind of jury pool,
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: if you will. You know, a lot of people were upset.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: Then you have a lot of right wing people in
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Dallas at the time. It would have been a lot
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: of motions, a lot of sidebars.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: It would have been nuts.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not to mention the witnesses, which we'll get into
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: that would have been called up there.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got to remember, Joe, they didn't mess
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: around in Texas back in the day. You remember how
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: fast Jack Ruby got his trial after he killed Oswald,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: And you can imagine the same kind of time frame turnaround.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: They would have had had Oswald on trial within two months.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, early sixty four, I'd say, right.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Now, of course we'll never know whether or
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: not after being arraigned in a court by a judge,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: whether or not, and after Oswald had the benefit of
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: speaking with a lawyer whether or not he would have
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty or guilty, because I mean, I think
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Walt Brown's assuming here that Oswald would have said not guilty,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: hence the trial, right. Yeah, but again, a good lawyer
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: could maybe try you know, you know how lawyers do
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: you know? They could say, look, dude, things aren't looking
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: good for you. Okay, look at this stack of evidence
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: we have here on this.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, except accept a plea, right.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, take a plea. Maybe you get your life spared. Maybe,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: maybe you'll get out of parole when you're when you're
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: ninety five years old.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: But the alternative is we go to trial, you possibly
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: get cooked and get the death penalty. You know, So
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: there may not have been a trial even though Oswald
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: maybe didn't do it, right, I.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Think Oswalt would have definitely pleaded not guilty and fought
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: to the last.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Now, you know.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we're we're assuming a lot here, But
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: for the sake of history and this book, we're gonna
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: assume that Oswald would have pled not guilty. We're gonna
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: assume that his fictional lawyer. Okay, it was this guy's name,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Raymond Matthews, right, Texas DA. Well, that's the prosecutor. His
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: attorney was Edward Barnes, a fictional young Minnesota lawyer. I
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: wonder why Walt Brown made him a Minnesota lawyer.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: I think in reality it would have been what was
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: the DH name, Bill Alexander, Yeah, versus Mark Lane.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: That's why I think it would have played out.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see that or Oswald would have had
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: like he might have gotten John apt or some famous
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: communistic civil rights attorney. I don't know, but Mark Lane's
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: a good choice.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Of course, every you know, when you had that short
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: of a turnaround from commission of the crime to trial,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: you have to look back at things from the perspective
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: of history. They would not have known all of the
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: things that we know now. Okay, So it's kind of
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: it's really kind of hard to separate yourself from man
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: literally one or two months of knowledge. You know, how
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: much how many interviews could be done in two months?
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: How many? How how how can you make sure all
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: the evidence is processed, all these films are for it
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: filled out, and and all of this other stuff, Right?
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: You know before you go to trial and make sure
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: you have all your ducks in a row when you
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: walk in there.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Right, you wouldn't have the for example of the Subbruter
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: film to show to.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: The jury, right, well, who knows.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Well it was released in the seventies, so.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they knew about it then, so they could
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: have subpoened it.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they could have, because the Bruter kept.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: A copy even though he did sell it to life,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: he did keep a copy. So it's not out of
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the realm of possibility that the lawyers could have As
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: long as they knew about things like disapproved of them,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: they could have subpoenaed it for court, you know.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: If their emotions were were granted, right, which is a
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: big if.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's such a thing as inadmissible evidence and uh
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: exculpatory evidence and things like that, and lots of legalese
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and legal hurdles, and.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, bro, can you imagine the sidebars that would
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: have taken place when they were discussing Mexico City, like
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: in terms of national security and blah blah blah, Like
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: they would have like deep sixed all of that because
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: of you know, their well.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: I don't even think Mexico city would have came up
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in this trial because it really has nothing to do
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: with what happened in Dallas. Yeah, at least from a
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: prosecution point of view. And the defense team is there
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: to exactly do that present a defense now, unless you
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: had some kind of a good argument that could say,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you know, my client was accused of being in Mexico,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: you know, YadA, YadA, YadA. But again, they didn't have
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: all the benefits, right.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: They might not even known that at that point.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Well, they knew it, you know, you have Hoover and
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Johnson talking about it. These people would have got subpoened.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Who knows if they would have been made the FBI
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: would have been made to turn over their documents at all.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: It could have been strictly a trial based on Dallas
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: and Dallas County Sheriff's office evidence and paperwork and work.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: You know, since it wasn't a federally prosecuted case, maybe
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: all that FBI investigation wouldn't have been admissible, right, right.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: It's crazy to ponder how that would have actually worked out.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: It would have been nuts.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So some of the stuff that comes comes out
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: of this book, you know, when it comes to asking questions,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I think certainly the Parkland doctors would have been called
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: to testify, yes, and their testimony would have been very damning,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: because most seemed to see the throat wound as an
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: entry wound and the big hole in the back of
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: his head as an exit wound.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't just one or two doctors, it was many, many,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: many doctors, nurses, anesthesiologists, orderlies, nurses. And then you got
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the problem of the quote unquote magic bullet at Parkland. Again,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: at that time, you couldn't come up with a a
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: good chain of command for that bullet to come out
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: of Kennedy.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Right, chain of custody.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean where where you know, I think
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: any lawyer worth their salt would have took this bullet
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: and been like, you're seriously telling me that this one
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: bullet went through all two of these men, broke all
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: these bones, went through all this muscle and tissue, and
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: came out looking like this.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: M h.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I mean. And and when you're doing things like that
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: in a court of law, you're putting on a show
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: for a jury, right, you know you're not. You just
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: don't have to convince the judge. You have to convince
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: a jury. Yeah, things, And when you can illustrate and
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: put any kind of doubt into a jury's about anything,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: that's always a big fat w for the defense right
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: at the time, of course, and maybe they could have.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: But in Walt Brown's book he says no Oswald fingerprints
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: or palm prints to link him to the alleged assassination weapon. Again,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that. And I think when you're
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: trying to explain to a jury a palm print evidence,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: and how that matches whatever palm print you got, how
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: that smudgy mess matches Lee Harvey Oswald's palm print, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: you got to blow it up to the size of
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: a poster board and present it in court and try
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: to convince twelve people that they match. Good luck. Yeah,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: you know, because this was before computer you know that
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: you couldn't have a computer program matching for you and
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: you know, create results like that that are convincing to
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: a jury. So they had no eyewitnesses that could put
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Oswald in the sixth floor window of the school book
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: depository with a rifle. They had a vague description from Brennan, right,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Howard Brennan, but nobody could put him up there shooting
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: a rifle on the sixth floor at twelve thirty, and
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: none of the inside workers, none of his coworkers, could
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: put him up on that floor at twelve thirty twelve
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: thirty one. Nobody saw him up there, despite Bonnie Ray
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Williams being up there until as late as twelve twenty five. Now,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: of course, Oswald could have been sitting in a corner
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: quite as the church mouse for ten or fifteen minutes
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: while they ate his chicken sandwich and smoked a couple
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: cools and suck down.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: To dr pepper, but a couple of metals, you.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Know, normally when you're smoking like that, you know you're
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: smoking near a window, an open window, And all he
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: had to do was look to his left and he
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: would have seen Lee Harvey Oswald down there, you know.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't think you can stay quiet when you
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: got a giant paper bag and a big rifle with
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: a sling, and you know, you know what I mean,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: There's no way you can be totally quiet, you know
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: what I mean. And then there was allegations of Secret
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Service ations on the Grassy Knoll from eyewitnesses, despite there
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: being no secret Service station on the Grassy Noll. After
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the shooting, creating an imposture like situation. Right, not to
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: mention all the ear witnesses in Daley Plaza who stated
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: that they heard more than three straight Yeah, the three shots,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: and that they came from certain directions.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the defensive attorney should or would have brought all
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: them up one after one after one.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he would have killed him across examination. Yeah,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: because the prosecution has to have witnesses, right, and the
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: prosecution is not going to put some He's not gonna
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: put Bill and Gail Newman on the stand right when
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: he knows what they're gonna say. He knows what their
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: first day testimony said that the shots sounded like they
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: were coming from behind them, in the grassy area, behind them,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: in the tree, you know. And then you know, even
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: if you had somebody up there that said, oh, I'm
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent definitely the shots came from that building
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: right there, you know, And then you know, a good
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: defense lawyer could get up there and just tear them apart. Yeah,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: you know, well, how positive are you? How do you
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: know what a gunshot sounds like? How do you you know?
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And just really go into them and create some doubt
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: in the jury's mind.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Right, which is all you need is some reasonable.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Nowb Yeah, different rifles. Three different rifles were referred to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: in the arrest report. You know, this is a big
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people point out inconsistencies in
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: police reports, like an arrest in the balcony of the
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Texas Theater, when the arrest supposedly happened on the floor
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: of the Texas Theator. Explain that, sir, explain why you're
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: right here calling this a mouser because you said it
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: was stamped right on the barrel, right, Yeah, well, look
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: on this rifle here, and what does it say to you?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: You know type of thing. I mean, this is the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: thing that a good defense attorney would love to do
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: in an open courtroom.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he would have brought up Roger Craig.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Well, and Roger Craig was the only one that called
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: it a mouser, right, you know, you have two other
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: sheriff's deputies calling it a mouser. And you know we
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: haven't even got to pour Bul Frasier or anybody like that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get to some of that in my
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: closing thoughts.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Proof that other suspects were taken into custody that day
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and ultimately released very quickly with no fanfare and no
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: just cause, without anything being investigated. Yet without Oswald he
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: be arrested yet. So yeah, it's very interesting stuff.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: It's fascinating to.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Consider how that trial would have played out.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: It's it's fascinating. I would have loved to see it.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know there is a I can't remember
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: when it came out. I want to say, like the sixties,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: sixty four sixty five, there was a something called The
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald. It's black and white, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it tries to do what Walt Brown's book does, but
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I would say Walt Brown does it better because of
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: course you can incorporate more information and inference in a
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: book than you can and you know, an hour and
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: a half movie. But the premise is the same. How
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: would a trial for Lee Harvey Oswald would have looked like?
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: How would it have gone? How do you think it
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: would have gone? And it's a very intriguing supposition to
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: gnaw into. And I think anybody who has an interest
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: in this case and who would try to write a
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: book like this would ultimately have a good time doing it,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: but probably come up with a bunch of different scenarios
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: that could have played out. You know, I don't think
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Brown is the be all end all of how this
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: trial would have gone.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: But and it's it's very jury specific, as wall rob right,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Like who's on the jury, Like do you have one
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: or two people that don't believe it and it's a
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: you know, hung jury or a mistrial, or are they
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: all super right wing people or people that want to
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: get justice for JFK.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: It would be.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: You know, the jury. You know, picking the jury would
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: have been a huge issue as well.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but for the sake of a fictionalized book, you
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: have to assume that they found twelve good jurors, because
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: one bad egg on the jury would would throw your
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: entire premise of your book out the window when you
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: have one scaffooza that you know won't go along with everything,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, So, just for the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: sake of a book or a movie or something like that,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: you would just assume that, Okay, they found twelve to
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: fifteen people who could be an impartial on.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: A jury objective, right, yeah.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And be objective enough to vote, you know, based on
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: the evidence and testimony. And but with that being said, Joe,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: give us your thoughts on the book and you're reading.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Okay, So you know, as I was imagining this fictitious trial,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: I we're gonna go back to Buell Wesley Fraser here.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: He would get torn apart on cross examination, right, he
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: would get just murdered.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: He'd have been quaking in his moccason as.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Joe, Yeah, I think Ruth Payne would have probably been
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: the most damning witness to Lee.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Figure like and like you mentioned before, would Marina have
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: been made to testify against her deceased husband.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Well, in theory, he wouldn't have been deceased at this point, right,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: So yeah, that's the spousal privilege where you can't you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: testify against your spouse. So we let's assume Lee is
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: alive on trial, Marina probably can't testify. Marina was pretty
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: you know, then you could take the whole wife beating
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: and you know, some other allegations the Nixon.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Unless she was just so appalled and convinced of his guilt.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't know how that would work. I don't know.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I think that she could testify if she wanted to,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: but I don't think they could have made her, right, Okay.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: You know, like if if the somehow the prosecution could
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: have convinced Marina to testify against her husband, we would
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: have had that. But if there was any kind of
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: inkling or any kind of love there, or any kind
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of inkling that Oswald is innocent of these charges, then
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: you have to figure a decent person, If Marina is
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: a decent person, would not testify against her husband and
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: father of her children right at this point?
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: And I mean we know she lied to the FBI
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: initially allegedly, so I would think not, but you never know. Uh,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: you know, I think of someone like Marion Baker, right
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: who his DPD same day. Affidavid is all over the
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: place in terms of what floor he met Oswalt on,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: he would have been crushed and cross But then you're putting,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: I could see the prosecution and the other powers that be,
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: if you will, putting a lot of pressure on people
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: like Bonnie Mary Williams, Harold Norman, you know, James Jarmin,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Eddie Piper, and a bunch of other witnesses.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, what would truly have, as said you'd have.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: You would have to be an extremely skilled prosecutor to
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: kind of tie this all together. And I think if
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: you had a decent defense attorney, which we are assuming
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: that you know, whether it's apt or Mark Lane they
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: would be or whatever, that they would be able to
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: tear apart almost all of these witnesses.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And then you know, you've got a couple witnesses.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Like like the guy you mentioned earlier, Brennan, but like
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: there's not many. And then like what if you're bring
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: like leeb hours up or you gotta sign the language
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: person too.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Mmm hmmm, Well they didn't know about it him then.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Hoffman didn't come to the until sixty seven.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine taking the jury pool out for a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: field trip to Daley Plaza and saying, okay, our star witness.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: The star witness was sitting up here on this concrete abutment.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Now you look over there across the street up into
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that window, and you tell me, I'm gonna have one
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: of one of my guys go up there and sit
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: in that window and you tell me what you can see. Yeah,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that's all they would have had to do, right to
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: just reread it, Brent Brendan.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: Right, and uh, you know, and we're of course assuming
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: the uh, the the video of.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: What's the fucking nice name.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: It's a proof all right, brain Feart is not available
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: at this time. You still have a hard time, right,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: you still.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Have the next film, you'd still have the much more film.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: You'd still have Mary Mormon's photo. You know, you still have.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: A good bit.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think back to the book here after
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: all this legal talk. I think it's a fascinating premise
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: for a book. I really enjoyed it, I think. I mean,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: he says they called over one hundred They would call
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: allegedly over one hundred and seventy five witnesses. You know
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: how long that would take in the trial. That's like
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: a six eight month trial right there. As someone who
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: just watched like the Karen Reid trial for example.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: And it was like way less than that.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: But that was a shit show too, So I mean
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: this would have been this would have been.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: In reality, I think I don't think that many witnesses
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: would have been called by the prostitution. I think Waltz's
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: throwing everybody in there, right the sake of throwing everybody
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: in there, you know, and figure out what side do
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you land on?
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: But it'd probably be about fifty to seventy five if
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: I had to guess.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if there's that many.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Well, including prosecution of defense combined, but maybe yeah, there
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: might not even be that many. So, I mean, it
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: would have been the trial of the century, of the
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: you know, of the world. It would have been great.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: And who knows if there would have even been a
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: warrant commission if that trial went forward.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Right, there wouldn't have been any need for.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It, right. So I love the premise of this book.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I love where he's thinking and going.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to give this rob.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: A very solid eight guns up, all right, because I
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: just love the idea of of it, right, and and
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: thinking of what could have been.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And I'm gonna throw a left curveball
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: here at you or a knuckleball.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe, oh fly that.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you a question looking back on
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: all this, right, you remember Oswald was accused of another
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: capital murder crime, that of the of a Dallas policeman.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Right now, I continue, So, which case, if you're prosecutor,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: do you think you have a stronger possibility of winning? Ah,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: if you choose to prosecute, Uh, we're talking about convincing
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: a jury of things.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I think it might have been a little harder with
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: tipp It, But you have to wonder, I want to
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: be it might have been easier with JFK. But you
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: have to wonder, if they prosecute him for JFK's assassination,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: do you lump that in with tipp It? Do you
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: save that as Okay, if he gets acquitted, then we'll
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: bring the Tippit charge murder charge at him. It's it's tricky.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: See, I think the Tippitt murder would have been easy,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: an easier case to win for the prosecution given the
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: limited scope of the volume of testimony and evidence. Right,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: you got to deal with maybe eight eyewitnesses, a lot
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: of them who could have gotten a very good look
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: at Lee Harvey Oswald running away from the scene of
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: a crime. You know, could be you know, you could
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: you could if you were a jury, you could be
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: convinced that what was the woman Helen Markham saw Lee
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: But again, she would get absolutely crushed on crossed by
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: a good defense lawyer.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe it could be sympathetic to her. I mean, she
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: just saw something very traumatic, she spooked, you know, and
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: but she could be certain that that's the guy she saw.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: He was twenty feet away from her. Joe, he wasn't
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: sixty seventy feet up in a window somewhere in the shadows.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, would you bring
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: those those cases together in the same trial or would
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: you save the Tippett as backup just in case you
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: lose the JFK one.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know how that would have worked.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: See, I probably would have done tip it first separately,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: and then because I would think that that's the case
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I have more better chance of winning than the whole
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Kennedy one. Because with the Kennedy case, do there's so
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: many problems with the evidence, the chain of custody, the
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: witness testimony. I mean, it's just so muddy and murky,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: and you have the don't forget the paraffin tests. You know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: you'd have to get into trajectories and all this other stuff.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: You'd have to explain how you know, you have to
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: do your own time tests proved that Oswald could have
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: gotten down the steps fast enough to meet Mary Baker.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Now is this something that the Dallas police would have
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: been skilled enough to reconstruct? And or the DA's office.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: Right point, But what's the goal here?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Is the goal to.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Get justice for a president who was killed in broad
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: daylight in a major American city, or is the goal
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: just to put Lee away. I think the public appetite
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: would be far stronger for JFK over tipp It. So
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: I feel like you would keep Tippitt as the backup
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: if you lost.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you're prosecuting attorney, you want to take
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the case that has a better chance of you winning
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: it and do that first. That way, you know, if
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: you can prove in a court of law in front
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: of twelve people who agree with the fact that Lee
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald killed JD. TIPPITTT and he's been you know,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: arigned and tried and all of that and convicted of
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: that crime, then when you put him on trial, all
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: of that evidence can come into your case and you
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: can say, well, obviously, you know, it's much easier convinced
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the jury that, hey, this guy, in the process of
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: him trying to get away from the crime scene and
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: the crime that he just committed, he kills a police officer.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: It would be easier I think if say he was
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: found guilty of killing Tippitt hypothetically to then prosecute him
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: on JFK for sure. But again, you're dealing with politics
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: and the public appetite at the time, and I think
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: the appetite for getting justice for JFK would have been
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: much more than Tippitt. So it's it's it's a great hypothetical.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know the answer. We're just kind of going,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: you know, debating here. Yeah, spitballing here. But man, it's crazy.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: So what gives you your ranking, sir?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Well, spoiler alert, folks, I'm guessing you can figure out
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: how this hypothetical trial written by a conspiracy oriented author
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: ended up right, and for good reason, because the case
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: is full of holes big enough to drive a semi
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: truck through. And if you have a good defense attorney,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: you can navigate your way through a case and plant
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: some doubt in the members of a jury enough to
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: be acquitted. Again, a fantastic job I think by Walt
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Brown here. Could it have been a little better? You
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: got to remember, Joe, this book came out in nineteen
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: ninety two, hot on the heels of the movie JFK.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Likely put together very fast. I mean, it's still a
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: good book, but likely this thing was put out very fast.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: It came out in September of ninety two, you know,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: right in town for the November anniversary and all that jazz, right,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying he rushed out the book, but
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I'm saying I think if you just from watching me
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: and Joe today, you could see how many mental exercises
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: that you could do for every little, tiny aspect of
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: this case and try to work out how this would
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: have looked in front of a judge and jury in
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: a quarter of law in Dallas in nineteen sixty three,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: sixty four, and with the available evidence they would have had.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: You know, they might not have had Marina, they might
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: not have had any of the FBI documents or or
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: evidence investigation. I mean, it could have been a totally different,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: totally different ballgame. But that being said, I did enjoy
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: the book, and I think I think I'm gonna agree
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: with Joe and give this book an eight out of
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: ten guns up. So folks, with that being said, this
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: may be one of the longest book.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Sorry for the legal jargon.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, but this book just sparks so much discussion and
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: thought provoking scenarios that we needed to convey that to
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: you to get across this book. It's a good book.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: If you haven't read it, it's definitely worth a read.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: It will definitely smark some scenarios in your head.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: And it's for a good price, you know, under ten bucks.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, get it while you can. I got mine.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Well okay, you paid a little more.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But like I said, I've had this book. It's well,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: it's well loved, it's well read. I've had it for
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: a little while.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure well loved but condition condition wise.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: But I'm just kidding.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: You know, I just get out of here.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I know you just like to smack them.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Just like the smack the thing. But anyway, if you
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: enjoyed this book review, make sure to check out this
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: here and that there somewhere and check out our podcast
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: that we do. Click on the chick on the live tab.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: We do it live every Friday night seven pm Eastern
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: and on Wednesday nights for I Remembers at seven pm Eastern,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: and we try to do these once a week and
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: get out some book reviews and spread some content and
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: love out there.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes we slap, but.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: We're on the mend. Yes, So yeah, that being said,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: check it out. We have almost four hundred episodes of
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: the podcast up for you to check out, and a
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: lot of other content over there. So if you dig
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: this kind of content and you dig us, make sure
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: to check it out, give us a subscription, a little
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: like and a follow, and ring the bell and all
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: that happy horseshit that you too want you to do.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And that said for us, and we'll see you next week.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Peace, Thank you everyone,