Latest / Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast / More issues with Methylation with Zelda Graham

Transcript

More issues with Methylation with Zelda Graham · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Music.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Joining us again today is Zelda Graham, a naturopath and nutritionist who specialises in epigenetics and MTHFR polymorphism management.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wellness by Designs, zelda.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I'm great, Andrew.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: How are you today?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm great, andrew.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: How are you today?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Good, thank you.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Our topic for today is more issues with methylation, so obviously there's some issues.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Let's first do a little bit of review, if you like.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: How does methylation support the body from a biochemical standpoint?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Well, when we need to to methylate.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: It's so important for every other biochemical process.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: So if you're not methylating correctly, uh, you're not able to control the rest of your biochemical pathways.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So methylation controls not only um our hormones, it controls our immune response.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It also controls our stress response, so you know how we react to stress.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: It also controls all of our neurotransmitters.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: So it's got a big role to play in our bioctrin pathway.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So it controls the dopamine, serotonin and melatonin.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: It also controls our ability to make CoQ10.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: So it's got a massive link to controlling our heart and therefore it's got a massive also play in insulin.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: It's got everything.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: To be honest, if you're not methylating, that's where chronic illness will come up and tap you on the shoulder.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Really, Okay.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: so here's the conundrum If you've got such a broad landscape of disorders that methylation affects, how then do you pick out if somebody is suffering another issue with that biochemically, or if it's methylation that's causing it?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Obviously you've got to start back at testing, right yeah, it's very important if to test everything from.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: My favorite tests would be genetics step one organic metabolites to check the body's deficiencies or the overproducing of some nasty biochemicals that we don't want and toxins.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: And also it's important to do a stool test to see viral bacterial load.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: But other good indicators for methylation issues are the histamine levels in your blood.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So if you're not processing histamine, um, that means you've got high histamine and that usually is an indication of a methylation issue.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Also, so does low histamine in your blood indicate your ability, whether you're under or over methylation.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: So I always recommend those tests along with homocysteine, because homocysteine is in the next biochemical pathway.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: So if you can't methylate, that methyl group is not been able to give to the methionine pathway, which therefore means that that homocysteine is not either getting made or recycled or made into methathionine or that enzyme, accidental metathionine.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: So then that causes a whole heap of other issues.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: So when homocysteine builds up in your blood, it causes high blood pressure and starts attacking the heart.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: So there's the link to heart disease as well.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: And we also need homocysteine for our detoxification.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: So if it's not getting processed correctly, then we've got detoxification issues.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Okay.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So just going back there, obviously, you know, once you get symptoms, particularly things like hypertension, that's way further along.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: You're now getting a pathological process embedded into your physiology, pathophysiology.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: So if we work backwards, what would be some of your first key things that you would go?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Ah, maybe you've got a methylation issue.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: What would be some of those things?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: That they might even be a little bit grey, a little bit misty, if you like, but you might suspect methylation.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I really dig deep into family history.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: That's one of my big things.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I could spend maybe 20 minutes.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I ask everything from what's your mum's health like?
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: What's your mum's mum's health like?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: What's your mom's mom's health like?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: What's your mom's dad's health like?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Um, what's your dad's health like?
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: What's your dad's dad's health like?
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Because that's where the genetics can be funneled through down into when that zygote formed for them when they were born, and also the circumstances of the parents, diet.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: And if they had already a methylation issue and both parents both have a methylation issue, then we have the nasty homozygous methylation issue which, unfortunately, is one of the worst to fix and solve.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: So you just got to hope you've got a heterozygous, which means you only got it from one parent.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: So I always ask lots of questions about family health, like that autism, depression, schizophrenia.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Then you know adhd, all of those mental illnesses.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: They can all be linked back into methylation as well.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So that's where I start digging deep and then I go look, I really feel we need to check your genetics to see if you're methylating properly.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: But you know on that note though, as well, sometimes they don't have the mtf hr gene, okay.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: So that's where we've got to dig even deeper, because they have dhfr, which is dihydrofreeraductase, which is the first gene that has to pass on that folate to make it to tetrahydrofolate, and then it passes that on to mtfd1, methyl tetrahydrofolate d1, and then methyl tetrahydrofolate d1 passes that then on to mtfhr.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I've just recently had a case where someone didn't even have the mtfhr, however.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: They had the mtfd1, they had the MTFD1, they had the dihydrofolate as well, and then they had all of the B12 genes.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't even the methylation actual issue, it was the fact that that tetrahydrofolate could not even get broken down to help the.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: MTFHR gene do its job.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: So, whilst you know, it's not just Mfh, that's what I'm trying to say, it's yeah so.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So when you say, when you say uh, they didn't even have the mthfr you're talking about, they didn't have the, the snip, the, the double alley is that why yeah?
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: they didn't have any um mutation in that backbone of that enzymes functionality, but they had all the rest of them.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: So the per methylation couldn't work because the other genes weren't working.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So now, once we fix the other genes, therefore, that methyl group can get passed on properly to the mtfhr.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Therefore it can finally do its job as before.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: It just couldn't get that methyl group that it needed.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: So, therefore, if you weren't aware to look higher and you just looked at MTHFR alleles, then you could think ah, there's no problem.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Quote, unquote here where there is.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: It's just upstream, exactly.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Okay so therefore, we've got to choose the right test 100% and that's where we also then have to do that test before you supplement.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Because if you give someone who is an over-methylator the wrong supplement or an under-methylator, if you have somebody that was over-methylating, something like acidental metathionine, it can actually make them really suicidal.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: It's the wrong way to go.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: And just because they have MTFHR, people think, oh, here we go, have some methylfolate, have some.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: You know p5p, have this, have that, take some sammy, you'll feel great.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: That's not actually the way forward.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: You have to check backstream, you have to check upstream and you have to check all of the symptoms, including that histamine levels in the blood.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: So that's my favorite.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So if you've got low histamine in the blood, that means they are an overmethylator, okay gotcha so when you never would give, yeah, so you never give accidental metathionine for an overmethylator, um, and also, then you also have to check do they have dhfr?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Because dihydrofolate reductase, it loves a better, different form of folate and sometimes it can break down methylfolate.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: So when I see DHFR I always look at folinic acid which has got a calcium backbone of the already active form of folate converted.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: So if you've got DHFR, that's the best way forward to help the NTFHR gene do its job.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, that sounds very complicated but that's why you have to.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: How much do you try and support these patients, though, with food, to say, okay, if we're sort of we could be running around doing the wrong thing with supplementation, we obviously have to get food right at the beginning anyway.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: If you've got histamine intolerance, then that's a whole dietary package on its own.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Where do you start with this?
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the big things would be even B12, to be honest, because if you don't even have B12 in your body, it's very difficult to even bind or get that intracellular folate going on anyway.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: So I tend to look at more of the basic Bs.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: So I look at B1, b2, b3, b5, and B12 would be my starting point.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Then I'd also look at do we need to look at?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Always I feel like everyone needs to be supported with magnesium.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: So magnesium is such a vital co-factor to I don't know how many functionalities in the body.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: It's huge.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was about to say 200 plus maybe.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So I tend to support with a basic protocol, first before we get the results, and then, when we get the results, then you can assess.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Well, oh okay, you've got this.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: That means your body will accept methylfolate Fantastic.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Then you try a small dose first and you always tune in three to five days later.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: How are you feeling?
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Are you feeling better?
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Are you feeling anxious?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: How are you feeling?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Are you feeling better?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Are you feeling anxious?
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Are you feeling jittery?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Because if they are stop because it's not working for them, then you need to look at a different type of getting that folate into the cells are the adverse effects, if you like, of Follinic sorry forgive me, mthfr.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Start again.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Are the adverse effects of MTHF always of an emotional component, or do you get physical components as well?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: You said jittery, that can tie in with emotions.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: What about things like palpitations, headaches, nausea, things like that?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, 100.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: If you give someone um the wrong supplementation and they start feeling sick, as in, they wake up first thing in the morning and they, you know, they describe to you, they feel like they want to throw up well, then we're on the wrong supplement.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: If they're getting headaches, then we're also on the wrong supplement.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And this is where you've got to look upstream and downstream.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Like the headaches is usually linked into the glucuronidation pathway, um and therefore, if you're giving too many methyl groups, that's causing the headaches.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: So this is where the over-methylation and the under-methylation is so vital to get right, and that's why it's better to take baby steps.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Right, okay, so if we're talking about an over-methylator, an over-producer, if you like, do we have to obviously take the load off, stop supplementing.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: But do you also use, like you mentioned, glucuronidation, things like that?
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Do you also use detoxification processes, clearing the body, even things like magnesium oxide, maybe, to help cleanse the gut of the byproducts that may be coming out in the urine and the bowel?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah and definitely, and that's why, once you've done your organics metabolite test, that's a fantastic way to see that.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: That is the problem.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: You can easily spot the chirurgen pathway in the organic metabolites results.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: You can spot the toxic load, neurotoxic organic metabolites in their urine.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Then you have to start, especially if we're talking about depression or anxiety or schizophrenia.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: If they've got those organic metabolites really built up in their urine, well then you have to look at is glutamate being properly made into GABA and if it's not, why?
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Therefore, something like an amino acid, like taurine, can really help.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting, people that do wake up and feel nausea.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: It's usually a build-up of glutamate toxicity or ammonia, which is another pathway that's blocked.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: So taurine is a fantastic solution for anyone that feels nausea um headaches.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: I normally would really support the glucuronidation pathway, so calcium deglutarate is fantastic for anyone who gets headaches.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: That's my go-to for that.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: And then obviously, then we have to look at food.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, so food is so important.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: When you can't methylate, you need the greens.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: You know You've got to eat the leafy greens.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: You've got to embrace lots of steamed broccoli.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: You know fantastic Brussels sprouts, anything green, leafy green, green green.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: The only greens you never, ever need to be worried about is if we've got oxalate issues.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: So there's obviously some of those greens have high oxalates.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: So if you've got an oxalate issue, just be aware of some of those.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Great, so that was going to be.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: My next question is that there's that subset seems to be raising its head more and more, but again it seems to double back, if you like, on to gut health.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: So we sort of come back to the pillar of naturopathic medicine.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Let's heal the gut, but obviously with avoidance of that, so avoiding things like spinach leaf, baby spinach.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: What other foodstuffs do you tend to avoid with an oxalate issue?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Well, generally, if I find anyone does have a methylation issue, if I do discover they have MTFHR, I've got like five that I say they're very high.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: So I ask people to avoid raspberries, I ask them to avoid carrots.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know everyone loves their carrots, but I just sort of say let's replace the carrots with pumpkin or sweet potato.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Um, celery is so high in oxalate so some people go crazy and do that celery juicing and then don't understand why they've got no energy and feel fatigued.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: It's because the body can't break down that high level of oxalic acid.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: So you know.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: So that's three that I really focus on and I'm afraid, sesame.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: So that doesn't go down well with people that love the hummus.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: So I apologise to the hummus fans out there, but sesame is very, very high in oxalates so I always have.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just like make your own hummus, but you can use hemp seed instead of sesame okay, it doesn't have the high level of oxalate.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Um, and then there is, though, a history of if they've even had a kidney stone, or have they had a gallbladder stone or, even worse, have they even had their gallbladder removed.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: That is a definite sign of methylation issue and oxalate issue.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: And then there's another list of food groups that I ask people to avoid as well when we have a kidney stone or a gallstone already happening or had happened.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: That list?
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go into it, because we're there oh okay.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: So the one that everyone hates.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: When I tell them this is so sorry, but chocolate's not your friend.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Chocolate's really high in oxalates.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, um, replace your chocolate with carob, that's much better.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Um, rhubarb, that's not a great um thing to eat if you've had kidney or gallstones.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Miso, any soy products, uh, buckwheat, um, and this is the other one, almonds.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Almonds are very high in oxalates.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: So I try to say to people that are drinking almond milk if you've got an oxalate issue, try to replace that with coconut milk.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Organic coconut milk will be much better for you.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: You know how there's that idea that people are attracted to, if you like, they crave the things that they're allergic to or they avoid them.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like dichotic.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: But anyway, do you find that these people are those people that eat a lot of these foods, like they love their raspberries, they love their carrots, they love their hummus?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: yeah, 100%, and that's why I just go well, there's your gallstone or there's your gallbladder removal, like you know um, and if you know it's, it's just something that, yeah, they have to embrace.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I give lots of alternatives when we have a situation like that.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: So you know, raspberries replaced blueberries, carrots replaced with pumpkin, and sesame replaced with hemp seeds, um celery replaced with leek um, now hemp seeds.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I need to ask you about this one.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting to me.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I've celery replaced with leek.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Now hemp seeds.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I need to ask you about this one.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting to me.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I've never tasted them.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: What do they taste?
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Similar to Like.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Do they taste like?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: hummus, I have to say no, they've got a very mild taste.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: So when I ask people to make their hummus with hemp seeds, I would ask them to put in a wee pinch of cumin just to give it a little bit of more.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Je ne sais quoi it helps smooth out the pain of the no tahini.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, and the other high oxalate food is beetroot.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: So beetroot, if you've had kidney or gallstones, beetroot's not your friend.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: So I try to say to people replace the beetroot in your salads with radish.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: And you know that's why.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: When you look at these juicing menus, you know you'll always see carrots, celery, beetroot, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like it's mind-blowing, because we should not be juicing those things.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: They're very high in oxalates.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: That's another conversation for another day, that's another.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: That's a huge conversation.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we've gone through over-methylation.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: What about under-methylation?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when someone's under-methylation usually me the big things that I look for is massive depression, like I'm talking, chronic depression, schizophrenia, suicidal tendencies.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: That's one of the big, massive indicators you can see for an under-methylator.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: But also things like OCD.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: You know they're very meticulous with detail.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: They're also a very addictive nature, so they would be addicted on iPhone addiction, computer addiction.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: They also can seem to be calm on the outside, but it's like they've got this huge inner vibration on the inside, absolutely.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: So they're just always feeling like on that edge, sort of yeah, fight or flight sort of person, and then they tend to obviously react very badly to stress as well.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: So when you say react very badly to stress, yeah yeah, sorry, zelda so when you say react very badly to stress?
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Are these, when you say react very badly to stress?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Are these the people that run themselves into the ground because they're high achievers, they're a little bit meticulous and they just right go to exhaustion?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: yeah, and then they end up with this you know what everyone calls chronic fatigue and and they end up lying in bed for a few days because they've just done so much, took on so much, and then they blame that for the chronic fatigue, whereas it's really all about not methylating correctly.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Now, when you're an under-methylator, that's where acidental metathionine actually comes in.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Fantastically if you're an under-methylator, but I would never give anyone acidental met methionine until I tested their histamine blood levels just to check.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: And with the over-methylators, things that I look at for them is it's interesting they're more.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: They're not depressed or suicidal, they're more anxious.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: You know they will tend to speak a lot.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So you know, if you get a customer sitting down and they're sitting there and you're trying to even just get in a word edge ways, that's a good sign of over-methylation.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: You know they'll have a low sex drive.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Sometimes an over-methylator will be a bit more on the obese side.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I always look out for that nervous leg syndrome.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: You know somebody that's just sitting there talking fast.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: The leg is shaking.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: That's a perfect sign of over methylation as well.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Um, low motivation.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: They tend to do a lot of talking but don't have a lot of motivation to actually do things.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Um, they can be depressed and anxious but they tend to not be more on the suicidal side compared to the under-methylates.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: There seems to be some symptoms there sort of at odds with each other.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: You know you've got this anxious talkativeness, but they're low libido, obese, shaky legs but with poor sort of output.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: That's weird, yeah, and that's what I mean.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: It's like you nearly literally have to be a detective.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: You actually have to be a detective in everything from what they do, their lifestyle, what they eat, um, how they sleep, how their moods are.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I, you know, I ask so many questions to try and pinpoint what we're dealing with, while we're waiting for the test results to come back.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Um, and then when you do and that's that's where to be honest as well that's why you need to check all the genes.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: It's not just about mtfhr.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of b12 genes that need to really be more addressed, I feel, because certain genes especially you've got the mutt dude in b12 you actually can't absorb methyl b12 and you can't even get hydroxy b12 into the cells.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: And this is where this over methylation becomes dangerous, because if you can't methylate and you're giving somebody methyl b12, there's nowhere for that methyl group to go, because the b12 can't get into the system.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So this is where you know you need to look at all of the B12 genes.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: So there's metathionine reductase, metathionine synthase, then there's TCN2, fet2, and then MOT2.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I always look at those B12 genes because sometimes it's actually just the B12 and not even the MTFHR, because they can't.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: You know that methyl group, that MTFHR, has to pass to metathionine reductase.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: If they've got a polymorphosis and metathionine reductase, it can't actually properly take that methyl group.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: So therefore B12 doesn't get into the system, doesn't get into the cells, doesn't't get into the cells, doesn't get recycled.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Therefore we have anemia.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: So you know, if you don't have B12 and you don't have intracellular folate, you can't make or bind iron and you can't make new red blood cells.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: So this is where you become a bit more of a detective.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: You've got to look at the bloods as well.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: So anemia is always a methylation issue or a b12 issue as well right, okay, so bang for buck.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Where do you start, like, do you just do all of them at once because they're all going to be showing you some part of a puzzle, or do you say, no, I reckon you're this and or no, maybe that you know, look, you know, health is wealth but, as we all know, good health doesn't come cheap, right?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: So I generally assess, you know, budget.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: I actually ask, I go look, what are we able to afford here?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Because to me the buck stops first off with genetics, because I know so much about it.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: So for me the genetic test is my first call, because from those genetic test results I can exactly see all those things that I'm talking about.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: If they can afford the OMX, along with the genetics test, the organics metabolite test, that's my second test that I love.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: The third would be a stool to see viral and bacterial.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Because, let's face it, if you're not methylating, you don't have a good immune response.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: If you're not methylating, you've got a high tolerance.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: You've also got SIBO.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: You know we discussed that in the last podcast.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So the SIBO is there.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Therefore the bacterial overgrowth will be there.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: But once we get methylation and the metathionine pathway working a lot, better the SIBO starts improving and then the gut lining gets better and then the immune response gets stronger.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: So that's why I generally do the stool more towards the end, just to check that everything's going where we want it to go, and I generally try to see if we can get the doctors to run the homocysteine and the histamine blood tests.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Ah, okay, so with histamine blood tests?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Ah okay, so with histamine blood tests?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Tell us about this.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: I thought there was a real brick, a block wall, basically trying to get doctors to prescribe this, to write these requests.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if someone has, you know, constant histamine allergies and seasonal allergies, they're more well within their rights to ask doctor to check the histamine in their blood.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I generally, um, you know, say to people well, you've obviously had this histamine issue your whole life.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: There's no reason why your doctor won't do that.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And doctors will do it, some will and some won't.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: However, if they don't, then you can order it privately, you can order any yeah, but I just you know as I said chance, the arm first, and homocysteine.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: And gosh, that's another one.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I could spend an.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: They are first and homocysteine.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: You know, gosh, that's another one.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I could spend an hour just talking about homocysteine.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, a quick take on homocysteine.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: You know, if you've got low homocysteine that's just nearly as dangerous as high homocysteine, because if you've got low homocysteine there's no homocysteine left to be properly converted back into metathionine and there's no homocysteine left to go into your Krebs cycle to make energy.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: So there's your chronic fatigue.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And if you're not making enough homocysteine, you're not able to make enough glutathione, so you're not detoxifying correctly.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And then if you're making too much homocysteine and you're not recycling it, well then that's where the heart disease comes into play and the blood pressure issues.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: So when you've got a family history of heart disease, triple bypasses, high blood pressure, anything like that, that's where you know for definite there's a methylation issue and a homocysteine issue.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So we've discussed most of what can go wrong with the incorrect treatment or or guideline, if you like, protocol, um, what we've, we've looked at what sort of symptomatology people get when they're either over or under methylators.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: If we're going to be looking at doing a test, doing judicious supplementation to run the COGS forgive me, I'm doing quotation marks here on screen is it appropriate that we support people who are, let's say I'm going to hope this is right over-methylated, so they're over-producing?
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Would it be appropriate to support these people with the end byproducts?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So let's say glutathione, if we're talking about the homocysteine cycles and then it goes down to sulfate glutathione.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Um, what would happen if you supplemented with glutathione or lipoic acid?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Do you get a bank up or do you get an easement of the um, the overproduction like?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: that's where I get confused, yeah, and this is the problem, right, because until you do the test you don't know what pathways are actually blocked.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: So if the detox pathway, phase one or two, is already blocked and you give somebody glutathione, it can actually make them feel sick.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: So I try to leave the detoxification at least into phase three of the protocol, once I've ascertained what is actually going on.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: And but in the background I've already started on the diet, you know.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: So gluten is not your friend.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: When you cannot methylate, gluten is no one's friend.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Again, that's another large conversation, um, but gluten blocks the gallbladder and stops the ability for the liver to do its job.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: So gluten is not good for neurotransmitters or your gallbladder and gluten blocks the folate receptors.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: So then you can't methylate at all.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: And then I always ask for people to stop dairy, because if we've got a hormonal issue, if we have a methylation issue, we don't need car hormones and steroids into the mix, confusing the body and the pancreas, because you'll also find blood sugar is a big issue for people.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: That can't make like.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: There's always a history of diabetes somewhere for someone.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Um, and that's definitely where I say let's just stop the dairy for now, until we know what exactly is going on.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And then I support those starter bees, I support the magnesium, potassium.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: If they're feeling nauseous, we go in with the taurine.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: They've got the headaches.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: The calcium deglutirates an awesome, awesome option, option for that um.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: And then when we get the results, we can go aha, here we go.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: So now I know the genes you've got, now I know what you're overproducing or underproducing and therefore you go nice and slowly with either felinic or, if they're able to take five, methyl tetrahydrofolate.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: You start with a small dose first, tune in with them, you know, within a week, check everything's going okay.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And then you slowly increase until you've got them to that level where they go wow, I feel a 50 improvement.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: And then I go that's fantastic, now let's go for a hundred gotcha well with regards to, um, just something I forgot to ask earlier when, when you were talking about supplementing with b vitamins, do you tend to favor the activated b vitamins over the old?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: You know pyridoxine, hydrochloride, thymine, thymine, chlor, I think 100 like the activated ones.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Just yeah, it's hard to build with these big long extra long names, but yeah, yeah, the activated ones are the easiest, quickest result that you will get, because it's already activated, it's already been converted.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: The body will just see it and go oh, I've been looking for you and just completely mop it up.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: So the activated would be my preferred for the starter protocol.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: And what also about.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: When we're talking about magnesium, do you tend to favor different types like um, look, I've got to say companies have done this, but we've been taught to you that and the words are wrong in my opinion, but anyway, we've been taught that glycine is the best.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I think it's one of the fastest, but it's not necessarily the best.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: If you you've got a heart condition, give me Orotate.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: But you know other forms like, for instance, you know the German research.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: They favour the citric acid, the magnesium citrate.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: There's some practitioners favour the glycerophosphate to help to get across the blood-brain barrier and also help with gut healing as well.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Do you tend to sort of use different forms depending on what's happening with your patients?
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And especially if we're dealing with suicidal anxiety or depression, magnesium 308 is a definite Like straightaway someone says to me I feel anxious, I feel depressed, you know I've got suicidal, you know tendencies, that's I.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Just, while they're talking to me, I'm reaching for it already.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Um, so you know, and it's really about symptoms again.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: And then if we've got constipation issues, um, then you know, and like there is eight different types of magnesium, so I it's.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Again, it's not one size fits all.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I try to actually give them as many as I can.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I tend to give people at least four to five.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: So there's some great Try Mag blends out there where you can get three types of magnesium in one supplement.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: So that's a great starter straight up to give someone.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And then if you've got the anxiety and the depression, then I add in magnesium 3 and 8 to take at night time to calm down their neurological function.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I've got to say, and I am going to give a call out to somebody here I met with James Bergen Hi James, and he, at the end of our meeting, he gave me a drink.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: He said do you want a magnesium drink?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, sure, expecting the typical magnesium, you know.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's a citrus flavor or it's a whatever flavor which is really covering a mineral chalky flavor, right.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: And he mixed this magnesium with a vitamin C powder.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I've got to get the exact recipe of him.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: It was the most natural, natural tasting.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: There was no quote, unquote supplement taste to this.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: It was the.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: It was just like drinking a natural fruit juice, not that that's necessarily great thing, but but the taste was just beautiful.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: There was no, um, you know, cloying aftertaste.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: There was no mineral chalkiness with this.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, james, dude.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want that recipe too.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Please, that would be great.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: And then let's not forget how important vitamin C is as well.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: So vitamin C is needed in lots of our biochemical pathways too, and you know how many people are actually sitting down and cutting up an orange and eating an orange every day because it's water-soluble.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: We need vitamin C every day, and it's needed in our biotrin pathway, it's needed in our methamphetamine pathway, it's needed in lots of our pathways.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: So again, vitamin C is always a great thing to have.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: If you're not eating an orange, then you need to be taking some vitamin c too it's.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: It's probably one of the nutritional supplements that I most overlook, and I've I've over the last, let's say, year I've woken up to wow, I've really sort of in my arrogance of quote, unquote knowledge, I'm using a lot of quotation marks, this podcast.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Forgive me, but in my arrogance of what I call knowledge, I've forgotten the simplest things can be some of the most beneficial things.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: You know, these supportive, foundational nutrients.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because sometimes we as practitioners, we get enamoured with, with you know, everything that's in a in a container and forget sometimes about the importance of real food.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: So I just try to get into a habit.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: I'm, you know, I'm at my desk, I cut up an orange and just munch on at least one a day.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: That's just yeah, yeah but I'm going to add to that, though.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I'm going to add to that, though, and that is that in the 21st century and certainly post-COVID pandemic, post-lockdown I think this is a new epoch in human history, but anyway, there are so many people that are so stressed that they're churning.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: They're churning through these basic nutrients, just running their brains and their adrenal response to stress.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: So that's what it sort of woke me up, and I went, oh, my goodness, like we've got to go back to these really foundational nutrients to just to bring these people out of a hole.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: So I've started to use just simple stuff.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: So much more.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know we are what we eat as well, and that's why it's really important to remove that gluten.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: The dairy Try to eat always organic, because if it's not organic it's been sprayed with glycophosate and that damages so much in the body, confuses all of our biochemical pathways and also the importance of our meat source.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: So you know, now you have to say things like grass fed, organic, hormone free, steroid free meat.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, because you know our protein source is nowhere near as good as what it should be.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's really important to have a good whole food diet.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I try to say to people that comes out of a packet, it's not really what you should be eating.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: You've got to go back to the base good berries, organic wild berries, blueberries, blackberries, organic oranges, lemons, limes, apples, red grapes, organic kiwi, fruit, watermelon, and bring in the broccoli, all the greens as much as you can, and just some really good quality protein.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: That's a very good base protocol for a diet, along with some good quality nuts, depending on if we have oxalate issues or not, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: You know I take your point about trying to eat organic that they can be horrendously expensive sometimes, and so I love Tabitha McIntosh's book here.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: It's One Bite at a Time Eating your Way to Better Health.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's the byline, but it's One Bite at a Time by Tabitha McIntosh and Sarah Lance, and she talks about having your organic buck.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: So it's like what are you most going to prioritise with that amount of your expenditure that is most important to you?
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: There are other things that you just may not be able to afford, but there's really this you need to concentrate on.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: You've given us so many key things here that we can move from um.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Zelda, there's always.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: There's always the dirty dozen.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: That's the most important to buy organic.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Potatoes are heavily sprayed, blackberries are heavily sprayed, strawberries are heavily sprayed, tomatoes are heavily sprayed.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: So you know, look up the the dirty dozen list, and that's what I tried to say.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: If you can't afford all organic, then these are the 12 musts.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Like this is not even an option.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I'd rather you not eat them if you're not eating organic, because that's how heavily sprayed they are I love chatting with you.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: We could chat for hours.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I know we can.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: We've run out of time today, but I can't thank you enough.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I just want to show everybody who's going to be watching this video.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: That's my notes.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: You've given us so much to go on from.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: We'll put up as much as we can in the show notes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, zelda, and we'll no doubt we'll put up as much as we can in the show notes.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, zelda, and we'll no doubt we'll see you again for another another topic to do with methylation.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you everyone for joining us today.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Again, I say we will put up as much as we can in the show notes.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: You can get all of the other podcasts on the designs for health website.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I'm andrew.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs.