Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Nir Hasson (Haaretz): What Jerusalem Reveals About Israel | Jerusalem Day 2026
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski Executive Director of the Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of ARZA Orly Erez Likhovski: Josh, good to be here with you. Josh Weinberg: Thank you, Orly. Yeah, really great. I'm, you know, we're building up towards Yom Yerushalayim, Jerusalem day, ⁓ which I think, I don't know if I can speak for the both of us in saying we may have some mixed feelings about. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Completely, completely. I actually am recording it close to Jerusalem from my home in Mevasseret Zion ⁓ you know, I think... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: And I'm here in Brooklyn, ⁓ Brooklyn, Shalmala, but here in the diaspora, we observe two days of Yom Yerushalayim I'm just kidding, we don't. Orly Erez Likhovski: yeah. ⁓ you know, I think one of the people who really captured the essence of Jerusalem is the late poet Yehuda Mikhai. And he wrote many poems about Jerusalem, but in one of those really beautiful poems, he calls Jerusalem, a port city on the edge of eternity, the Venice of God. And I think that's such a beautiful description of a very, very, very complex city. And as you said, this week we are marking Jerusalem Day, a day that has been commemorated since 1968 to symbolize the unification of Jerusalem after the Six-Day War. But as we know, Jerusalem is a city that reflects many of the deepest tensions in Israeli society, whether it's the tension between Jews and Palestinians, between religious and secular Jews, between liberals and extremists, and between competing visions for Israel's future. And today we want to move beyond slogans and simplistic narratives to have an honest conversation about the realities of Jerusalem in 2026, about the challenges, the changes and the people shaping the city from the ground. We are honored to be joined by one of the leading journalists here in Israel and observers of Jerusalem, someone who has spent years documenting the city and living these realities firsthand. Josh Weinberg: Many of you may recognize Nir Hassan's byline as he is Haaretz's Jerusalem correspondent and one of the leading journalists, as you said, covering the city's political, social human realities, including years of reporting on Jerusalem Day and the famous flag march, which we'll get to. ⁓ of course, is the author of the 2017 book Urshalim about relationships between Israelis and Palestinians in Jerusalem, covering really the 50 years since what we call the unification of Jerusalem after the Six-Day War. ⁓ And this year received the prestigious Sokolov Prize for journalism. For the past two years, he has also, of course, extensively covered the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and just about that this week in Haaretz. Nir welcome and thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. ניר חסון: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. Orly Erez Likhovski: So, you know, we want to start to talk about what is Jerusalem Day. And actually, when I prepared for this episode, I was really surprised to discover that actually there is a law ⁓ that, you know, anchors this day, the Jerusalem Day law that was passed in 1998. ⁓ But, you know, the law itself says nothing about what it means, you know, what Jerusalem Day means. And I want to ask you, you know, sort of to kick us going to start going, can you tell us what Jerusalem is for you ניר חסון: my God. ⁓ yeah, you said before that ⁓ have mixed feeling about Jerusalem. They were, I don't have me. ⁓ don't have a mixed feeling about how about Jerusalem day for me. Actually, it's a very sad day because this is the day ⁓ we put the light on, the, the, discrimination, the occupation. will even say the apartheid that we have in our city. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha! ניר חסון: This is the day when we emphasize the fact that 30 % of the residents of Jerusalem are not citizens of the state of Israel. And this is the day where ⁓ there ⁓ this flag march, which is a very ugly event with a lot of ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ you know, last year, I took a photo in the old city, in the Muslim quarter of the old city, of an ATM, an ATM box a sign on it, writing in Hebrew, BS"D It belongs to Jews. Please do not harm. Josh Weinberg: Let's just explain Bassad for our listeners. Bassad is an Aramaic, it means, B Seyata D'Shmaya the help of... Yes. That ⁓ people put on their notes or their ⁓ just as a sign. So it's sort of a marking of territory, would you say? Yeah. ניר חסון: What do you mean? Right. So this is a note. Yeah, this is a note for the people who in this march. Please not harm this property because this belongs to Jews. Now, as a Jewish, ⁓ when see such a sign, I mean, we were the ⁓ victims of many such events. And now we are the victimizers This is how it feels. It felt like a pogrom for me, Jerusalem day is not a happy day. every year I just wait. I just told my wife ⁓ yesterday I'm just wait ⁓ this to and hope it will without violence and without casualties. But for me, it's a sad day, Orly Erez Likhovski: I do want you to say a word about what Jerusalem is for you. And I think when at the beginning we said that we have mixed feelings about Jerusalem, the city, you live in Jerusalem, right? Yeah, so grew up here. So ⁓ what is the city for you? ⁓ ניר חסון: Okay. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. ניר חסון: Right, I was born in Jerusalem and grew up here Love it. Well, I always says, Jerusalem is not a very good city to live in, but it's a great city to be a journalist ⁓ I mean, ⁓ not the best city in Israel, like if you measure, know, quality of life. And we have a lot of issues ⁓ and a secular, it's felt ⁓ more and more like, I'm not sure have a place here. ⁓ you know, I think two, years ago I published an that saying that only 9 % of the Jerusalemites consider themselves as, as, as a secular Jews, which is, which is pretty small minority. but, but ⁓ to be a journalist in Jerusalem, could not ask more. I mean, it's really, I cannot think about, about any other place. more interesting than Jerusalem. I always quote the first British governor of Jerusalem, Ronald Storrs who said in his memoirs, there is no promotion after Jerusalem. And so for me, there's no promotion after Jerusalem. mean, this is the place to be a journalist in. yeah, I have mixed feelings, course. Orly Erez Likhovski: you You ניר חסון: There's a lot of people and there's a lot of places in Jerusalem that I love. But ⁓ feel a lot of sadness and even rage about what I see here, about what I know about what's going on in East Jerusalem and in other places of Jerusalem. So it's tough. Josh Weinberg: Well, Nir, you've been, of course, covering Jerusalem for many years, and you even wrote a book, you know, trying to capture the complexity of the city and the relationships within it. If Jerusalem is sort of the highest place you can get to as a journalist, has it become harder in recent years to report honestly and with nuance about Jerusalem, and especially, you know, when Israeli society feels more polarized and Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: You know, the ideologies are really, you know, butting heads against each other. Do you feel like there's less tolerance for complexity, really? And tell us just a little bit about how this has evolved over the past, I don't know, 10, 20 years since you've been covering the city a little bit. know, like paint us a picture of what it looks like to you. ניר חסון: Well, let me start with some provocative saying. I don't think the Israeli society is polarized. In matter of fact, I think that we are not polarized enough. Yeah, I think that in the names of, in the name of unity and the afraid of polarization, my political camp, the left, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: in. Josh Weinberg: Interesting. ניר חסון: political camp in Israel and give over his ideals, his principles. And we stopped talking about occupation, about the discrimination of the Palestinians. We are not talking about peace anymore. We are not talking about diplomatic ⁓ solutions ⁓ the And this because we are so afraid of polarization. so I don't think that the Israeli discourse is polarized. This is, this is only a comment. ⁓ but having seen that, I think that the biggest problem in the Israeli discourse about Jerusalem is that we are not talking about, the real Jerusalem. We talked about some dream Jerusalem that, that we have, we have in the head. Okay. So, you know, you mentioned my book earlier and it's called Urshalim Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: And what is the real Jerusalem to you? Yeah. ניר חסון: Now, Ushaleem is the ⁓ of the city in Arabic. But nobody used this name. No Arabic speakers ever used the name Urshalim This is an ⁓ existent name. They call it Al-Quds, of course. This is the name, Al-Quds. But the government, you drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and you see on the sign, Urshalim Now, this is so weird. It's a huge anomaly of Jerusalem. Josh Weinberg: They call it LQDS, Orly Erez Likhovski: They call it the kutz. Kutz. ניר חסון: And this is exactly the symbol of the gap between the real day to day Jerusalem and the Jerusalem that the Israeli thinks about or talk about in the Israeli discourse. Like, you know, we had like, I don't know, or five election campaigns in the last few years. Jerusalem wasn't even... on on the, on the, on this campaign. No one talked about it. No one talked about the fact that I just mentioned that 30 % of the residents of our capitals are not citizens of our, ⁓ the state of Israel, which is insane, which is crazy. Orly Erez Likhovski: So, yeah, so, could you say, could you clarify, say a few words about that? Because I'm not sure our listeners know like the special status of the residents of East Jerusalem compared to Palestinians of Israel and compared to Palestinians in the West Bank. So maybe just. ניר חסון: Okay, so let's go back to history a bit. In June 67, like two weeks after the war, the Israeli government took ⁓ a few very important decisions. One decision is to draw the... Josh Weinberg: But just say that we know in the war that Israel reconquered all of, just to make sure. ניר חסון: Yeah, Israel occupied, of course, in 67 Israel occupied. Yeah, okay. So I'm going back. So let's go back to the history a bit. So in June 67, after the IDF occupy the West Bank, the government took a few ⁓ decisions about Jerusalem that actually shaped the city until our days. The first decision was to draw the line, the line of annexation, actually the border of Jerusalem. which is much bigger than Jordanian Jerusalem. It's 10 times bigger than the Eastern city, the Eastern Jordanian city. The Eastern city was a pretty small city around the old city and the territory that we annex was 10 times bigger than this. And on this territory, there were approximately about 70,000 Palestinians who live in all kinds of communities. There were neighborhoods and villages and... and Bedouin and all kinds of communities. the most important decision that the government took was ⁓ to give them full citizenship, but to give them like half citizenship, which called residency. So until today, more than 90 % of the Palestinians in East Jerusalem are only residents of the state of Israel and not citizens of the state of Israel. Now, ⁓ are the differences? Orly Erez Likhovski: No, can't apply for citizenship, right? ניר חסון: They can, well, theoretically they can, but actually ⁓ almost impossible to get it. It's a very long and very expensive and very difficult process to get it. And the fact that very, very few ⁓ succeeding of ⁓ this process and get the citizenship. So what are the differences between residency and citizenship? Okay, so they cannot vote for the Knesset. don't have right to vote for the parliament. They don't have passport. If they travel the world, they travel with what we call laissez-passer is like travel documents. But most important thing is ⁓ that residency be revoked. They can take it from you. And they can it from you if you are not residing in Israel, if you are not living in Israel. Orly Erez Likhovski: and be safe as soon. ניר חסון: for leaving Israel, don't have to go to to Ben Gurion airport or to Allenby bridge. You can just cross to the other side of the street because Israel annexed only East Jerusalem. It didn't annex the West Bank. So there are some neighborhoods that if you live in the in the right side of the city in the left side of the street, you're in Jerusalem. But on the right side of the city, you're in the West Bank. So if you move to the other side of the street, you're in the West Bank. And that's why you can you lose your residency. You can lose all kinds of benefits that Orly Erez Likhovski: and you're going to lose your residency. ניר חסון: from national insurance, you can lose your health insurance, etc. So what happened is that this is what shaped the demography of Jerusalem until today. Because in 1967, the Palestinians were only 25 % of the population, and today they are about 40 % of the population, even though from 67 till now, Israel built huge neighborhoods, some of them bigger than some of the cities in Israel, only for the Jewish population, But Jewish ⁓ the Jewish ⁓ of the city got shrink and our population increased. Orly Erez Likhovski: Jewish Jewish Jewish neighborhood Jewish yeah yeah Josh Weinberg: Each one could be a city and... Orly Erez Likhovski: other than the haladim, right? So the ultra-orthodox are... ניר חסון: No, because, okay, happened is that the other two big ⁓ in Jerusalem, okay, we have three big communities in Jerusalem, the Palestinians, the ⁓ community and the non-Haredi community, which is the secular and the religious together. The Jewish communities are emigrating from the city ⁓ in big numbers, okay? All my friends from high school, I ⁓ studied in a Hebrew Gymnasia in Rehavia. Most of my friends from high school are not living in Jerusalem today for many, many years now. And the Haredim start leaving Jerusalem in the ⁓ today there three pretty big cities in Israel, which most of residents are Haredim from right? Bet Shemesh Modiin. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, we should. ניר חסון: Modiin Illit Beitar Illit which is a very big city because because the prices. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, we should. And we should mention it. Yeah, exactly. We mention that a lot ⁓ of Haradim have left Jerusalem because of the rising prices of housing, and they had to find a cheaper solution. ניר חסון: Right. Exactly. And the Palestinians are the only group they didn't left Jerusalem because if the only place they can go is the West Bank, but they cannot go there because then they can lose their rights and their residency. So they stayed in Jerusalem. And this contributes to the crisis in housing in East Jerusalem. ⁓ it creates the informal building, the building without permits that we see in East Jerusalem. Josh Weinberg: and also that their neighborhoods are full. ניר חסון: And it's created the tensions between the Palestinians and the Israeli authorities and the violence and it creates so many problems. so this is the differences, sorry for taking too long, but this is the differences between residency and citizenship. And this is a very important fact to remember about Jerusalem, that we have two kinds of people live here. Orly Erez Likhovski: We should, yeah, but we should say that the Palestinians from Jerusalem, they can't vote for the municipality, for the Jerusalem municipality. They don't do it. They hardly do it, but they have the right to vote on the municipal elections. Yeah, yeah. ניר חסון: for the municipality. They don't do it. Bye. Josh Weinberg: So yeah, that's important. ניר חסון: Right, exactly, yes. Josh Weinberg: I it's ⁓ important for listeners to understand the big picture, first of all. And then, you know, I think we want to get into some of the differences between East and West Jerusalem. Now, ⁓ Nir, would you say that I'm correct? First of all, like when you cross over road number one go into East Jerusalem, it's like you're entering a totally different country. a totally different world. Help us understand a little bit about what East Jerusalem looks like. ⁓ it's comprised of different neighborhoods, Silwan, Sheikh Jarrah the center of town, the old city. Just give us a lay of the land a little bit and then we can get into some of the ⁓ additional complex issues that are around that. ניר חסון: So just to give you the idea is that East Jerusalem, it's a city, only East Jerusalem, it's a city the size of Tel Aviv. Okay? It's approximately about, it's massive, about 400,000 people. Okay, this is the size of Tel Aviv. ⁓ are all kinds of neighborhoods there. There is ⁓ refugee camp, the only Palestinian refugee camp ⁓ Josh Weinberg: massive. How many residents are we talking you think? ניר חסון: the boundaries of Israel is in Jerusalem, the Shuafat refugee camp. And there is another neighborhood called Kufr Aqab, which are on the other side of the separation wall of the wall. And that creates like an enclave of Jerusalem on the other side of the wall. Why is it so important? Because of this crisis of housing, Josh Weinberg: In Israel proper, yeah. Let's show a in the north. Orly Erez Likhovski: to effect. ניר חסון: many many Palestinians moved to those neighborhoods. Both of them together are only 4 % of the territory of East Jerusalem, but 30 % of the population of East Jerusalem live there. 40 % of the Palestinians of East Jerusalem live on 4 % of the territory. This is because when Israel built the wall and left those two neighborhoods on the other side, on the Palestinian side, the Israeli authorities don't care about what's going on there. mean, they can they can build whatever they want. And they actually built huge buildings ⁓ without permit. Exactly. It's really it's really death trap It's really this is not the place you want to be when when earthquake will hit Jerusalem and it will happen like we do have earthquake in history of Jerusalem. So this is the Orly Erez Likhovski: without permits and without supervision and it could be really a death trap, ניר חסון: first kind of, let's say, neighborhoods. And then you have ⁓ historical neighborhood of East Jerusalem, Silwan, Atour, Abu Tor which very dense with severe of everything, of sidewalk, public transportation, schools, clinics. ⁓ community shelters. I think there's only one shelter, one public shelter in East Jerusalem. Orly Erez Likhovski: Shelters, we just saw in the war, actually demanded there is one public shelter in East Jerusalem, but there are also other shelters in schools there, but obviously a lot of people lack shelters and we just wrote to the Minister of Defense during the last war with Iran about that and we are preparing a legal proceeding in this regard. That's just another example of the shortage of basic necessary services. ניר חסון: Bye. Wait. Yeah, I think the way to understand the situation East Jerusalem is to realize that both the Israelis and the Palestinians for many, years, saw the situation in Jerusalem as temporary. I mean, the Israelis thought for many years, okay, Jerusalem is United and we celebrate it every year. And this is our, capital all those big words that that Netanyahu will say tomorrow, day after tomorrow for sure. But on the bureaucratic among the people who where to put ⁓ the budget, there was saying, okay, it's not going to stay. It's not going to stay this way. One day we come and use them and we divide again or we find some kind of solution. So we don't have to invest in Silwan and Issawiyah it's not really part of Jerusalem Okay. And the Palestinians feel the same. say, okay, Israel occupied us and we are the other occupation. But we don't really have to invest in, in, study Hebrew or to get involved in the, in the, in the municipality or to find solution for our. housing issues because one day will come and will be ⁓ the will end and there will be a Palestinian state here and we will find a solution. So both sides felt like it's only temporary and it's going on for many, many, many years. And I think is a very important fact to understand how Jerusalem Why Jerusalem looks like the way it's looked today? Right, exactly. Now, I think that this state of mind of it's only temporarily actually collapsed about 10 years ago, 12 years ago in 2014 when the last fake negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians totally collapsed. And since then, Josh Weinberg: how the status quo was developed, right? And yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ניר חסון: I do think there are changes in Jerusalem. guess we'll talk about it, about the Israelization of East Jerusalem. So part of it is because of this collapse of this mindset of it's going to change soon. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Nir I you're painting obviously a very, very bleak picture, but I remember that in your book, in Urshalim you're talking about a really interesting process that you just alluded to, which is despite the extreme disparities and the discrimination and the lack of public services, maybe because of the lack of public services in East Jerusalem, we see... this process of Israelization. So more and more Palestinians from East Jerusalem actually are more immersed in West Jerusalem. And there is more actually, I don't know if connection or relationship, but more, you know, people see each other, right? Yeah, more integrated, exactly. So maybe say a word about that, yeah. ניר חסון: Integration. Bye. Josh Weinberg: And especially on practical matters. mean, you we see Palestinians come to shop at, you know, West Jerusalem shopping malls and supermarkets ⁓ you ⁓ help us understand a ניר חסון: We have Palestinian guards, right? We have thousands of Palestinians working as guards in the malls or in security guards, in security guards, which is insane. Okay, so they don't have weapons. They have I don't know, Pepper Spray or whatever. But it's something that you could not think about a few years ago. you you mentioned before that in the last two and a half years, I covered Gaza. Josh Weinberg: Security guards you're saying. Yeah Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. ניר חסון: And I covered the humanitarian situation in Gaza and killing and the starvation and the destruction and whatever. ⁓ I felt a lot of despair from the future ⁓ this place and for the future of my kids, right? Of my children here in Jerusalem. And the only place I found a bit of hope is actually Jerusalem. And this is because of this Israelization. I covered the humanitarian situation in Gaza ⁓ I a lot of despair from the future ⁓ of this And the only place I found a bit of hope actually Jerusalem. And this is Orly Erez Likhovski: Even after October 7th. 7th. ניר חסון: Yeah, especially after October 7th, because Jerusalem is the only place where Israelis and Palestinians, wake up and, and go to work together on the same level, not as a boss and an employee and as a soldiers and, someone who wants to cross the checkpoint. ⁓ Yeah, only after October, especially after, especially after October 7th, because Jerusalem is the only place where Israelis and Palestinians, like every morning, tens of thousands of Israelis of Palestinians wake up and, and go to work together on the same level, not as a boss and an employee and as a soldiers and, someone who wants to cross the checkpoint. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ wow. Wow. Wow. Josh Weinberg: Especially after, yeah. yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow. Wow. ניר חסון: But on the same level in the universities, in the shops in Malha Mall And most of the time they are not killing each other. They are working day after day together and the war didn't change it. And most of the time they are not killing each They are working day after day together and the war didn't change it. Josh Weinberg: especially at the health services and the hospitals and of course. ניר חסון: the health services and go to the Hebrew University. I think last year it was, I went to the Hebrew University, to the Mount Scopus campus during Eid al-Fitr. It looked like Yom Kippur there. I mean, there was no one there because there are so many Palestinians study today in the Hebrew University, which you can feel the Eid the holiday, the Muslim holiday. Orly Erez Likhovski: interesting. ניר חסון: Now, these processes of what I call the Israelization of East Jerusalem, there are all kinds of explanations, but I think the main explanation is the wall. The wall actually cut between East Jerusalem and the West Bank and almost Orly Erez Likhovski: Let's explain to our listeners the separation wall that was built by the government of Israel. When was it built in Jerusalem? ניר חסון: About 25, 20 years ago in 2000. It started in 2004. Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: beginning of the twit out, yeah, was Ariel Sharon and yeah. Josh Weinberg: 2003, yeah. And when you say wall, in some places along Green Line, it's a fence, and in Jerusalem, it's largely a cement wall, right? ניר חסון: Yeah, it's a cement wall between yeah, between the West Bank and and East Jerusalem. And and this wall almost physically push the Palestinians to the West. Because until the war, and if I'm to the Israel side to integrate into the Israeli economy to do the Israeli education to do this, I mean, if I was a Palestinian until the war, and in school, I I Josh Weinberg: to the West, you mean to the Israel side of the world. Yeah. Yeah. ניר חסון: I was studying the Palestinian curriculum, which called the Tawjihi not the Israeli curriculum, the Bagrut And I almost didn't learn any Hebrew. And then I went to study in the Palestinian university in the West Bank. And then I got married with a girl from somewhere in the West Bank and maybe found a job in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. And then there is the war. Now I still can do all those things because I have the blue ID I can cross this checkpoint, but it's much more complicated now. And then people start asking, should I go to Bethlehem University? If I can go to the Mount Scopus, it's much closer. And to the Hebrew university ⁓ to the colleges, there are so many good colleges here in Jerusalem. Orly Erez Likhovski: to the Hebrew University, ניר חסון: And if I work in, in, Malha Mall or in Israeli company, will earn much more. And so, and, and, and, ⁓ this process actually create, I create a new political community between the Arab, the Israeli Arabs, the Arab 48 and the the Arabs of 67, the Arabs from the Palestinians in the West Bank. Now the Jerusalemite Arabs, the Jerusalemite Palestinians are a new political community, which like metaphorically came to the Israelis and saying, okay, now you have to decide what do you want? If you really want United Jerusalem, so give us citizenship. Let us be part of Jerusalem. Josh Weinberg: mean, you're talking about is this really fascinating example ⁓ of ⁓ natural and pragmatic of Palestinians into East Jerusalem, both for the ability to make a living, the ability to advance in society. you were saying about this sort of the representatives community coming to the state of Israel or at least to the government, you know, to the Jerusalem. ניר חסון: It's a metaphor. They're not really coming, yeah, they're challenging the Israeli discourse saying, okay, now you have to decide. What do you want? You want United Jerusalem? So you should took us into the Israeli society. We should be like the 48 Arabs, the Israeli Arabs. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. which includes full citizenship, voting rights, everything, right? we wanna be like those who live in Jaffa or Haifa or anything like that, right? Yeah, yeah. ניר חסון: which includes full citizenship. Orly Erez Likhovski: and all that kind of stuff, right? ניר חסון: I had the chance to do. Yeah, I mean, this is what it's mean. This is the real unification of Jerusalem, not the fake unification that we did in 67 when we took the land and didn't took the people that living on the land. Josh Weinberg: didn't integrate the city and that would also mean infrastructure in the city. You can see a difference in East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem, right, of course, and garbage pickup and all that kind of stuff, ניר חסון: Right, but the real meaning- Orly Erez Likhovski: by the way me not yeah it is something i think to know that the current mayor of jerusalem which has been in power for you know a few years now already. ⁓ You know he was sort of very vilified before he entered his role and actually it's not that everything is great but think. Is it true that there is some improvement in the attitude of the municipality toward East Jerusalem ניר חסון: it's a very difficult question. Well, no, yeah, I mean, the roll of mayor of Jerusalem is very important role ⁓ can do a lot, but it cannot really change ⁓ infrastructure, the issues ⁓ of Jerusalem. Now, the current mayor, Moshe Leon, ⁓ did some Orly Erez Likhovski: It's complicated. ניר חסון: I think in his first term more than in his second terms help East Jerusalem to try to solve some of the problem. I feel that after October 7th, I don't know if he stopped trying or didn't succeed. He did not but it ⁓ felt like it all slowed down. reforms and trying to, that's what feel. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. ניר חסון: but I will not forget to Moshe Leon one thing that he went to the hospital to visit a nine years old, a from Issawiya that lost his eye by, by a bullet off the police, ⁓ shot by the police. So he had his, ⁓ I his heart is in the right place. I think he could do more in, in, politics. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah i want to talk about the flag march that we mentioned earlier because i think this really unfortunately this is the event that has been defining Jerusalem day for many years now and just to explain to our listeners that this is a march that has been going on for many many years for decades and it's being done. Participants are mostly young students. ניר חסון: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: from religious schools, public religious schools, so it's not Haredim it's actually the national religious sector that is marching the streets of Jerusalem. ⁓ this has been going on for years, but ⁓ in the last decade or so, we have seen an unbelievable ⁓ extremism and racism and violence associated with the march. The march is going through ⁓ Muslim quarter, ⁓ and a lot of violence is used against the Palestinian residents of the Muslim quarter, and so the police ניר חסון: No, no no no no no no no no no Orly Erez Likhovski: instructs the residents to stay at home to close their businesses early and to stay at home because otherwise they would just be beaten up. ⁓ to miss the rules in the last day of business and of course are subject to violence if they happen to be on the streets where they live ⁓ this is become really a routine of the marchers going on and beating on doors. of the people living in the Muslim quarter with the flags with the Israeli flags just imagine how terrible this is. including violence, a lot of violence that you were a victim of, ⁓ as And I can tell you that we have been, ⁓ you calling, ⁓ to the police beforehand, demanding that this would not be allowed. And afterwards, demanding that people would be brought to justice. We have been writing the education minister to tell, you that students that are participating in it, to you know, educational activity around it, to try to prevent this, to try to start a deep process. ניר חסון: Bye. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Talking how terrible this should be but maybe Nir you know Tell us from your perspective how it looks like because this has been going on for many many years Josh Weinberg: And some of you may have seen the footage that you showed also about this, the violence that took place. ניר חסון: Yeah, right. Yeah. So I'm covering the March flag for, I think, 18 years now. And yeah, and in the last, I think it's in the last 10 years or so that it's became like full scale pogrom And it's filled that the police and the Ministry of Education and all the other authorities just let them do what they want. They attacked journalists, Palestinians ⁓ just crossing the street. They vandalized ⁓ businesses, ⁓ you And they want to hear the songs that they sing. They're like moving in groups and each group has its own songs, but Most of them, especially when they get into the old city, into the Muslim quarter, you feel excitement of reoccupying the city, like in 1967. And they entered into the gate from Damascus Gate, Shaar Shechem Josh Weinberg: you ניר חסון: and they start celebrating and singing like, let your village be burned. Burn the village, ⁓ is dead, death to Arabs sometimes. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Thanks. Burn the village, burn the village. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: It feels like almost like, like they took the chants from soccer stadium of Beter Yerushalayim and brought them into the old city, right? It's almost like that. Yeah. ניר חסון: Yeah. Yeah. And this is, now you should understand, this is Jerusalem day for me. Like I'm staying there for hours, up on hours, like 12 hours sometimes in this place, in the Damascus gate and see groups after groups, groups after groups. And I'm saying to myself, what kind of community, what kind of discourse allowed such event to happen? What went wrong in the Zionist religious community that the main celebration every year is such an ugly event? And I don't have an answer. I mean, it's really sad. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well you know i want to say i think it's terrible i think a lot of people in Jerusalem and Israel are pulled by it and we should mention the few initiatives that sort of are. You know came to the world in order to counter this and really to present a sane voice a sane Jewish voice of tolerance and acceptance and inclusion and we always take part in two events one of them is an event that they tell me which is the same day of the parade in the morning. We go into the old city, into the Muslim quarter and distribute flowers and also sort of brochures that say, this is not our Judaism. And we believe in a Judaism that really accepts everyone and in ⁓ and respect for all. And then a few days later, next week, we're going to join the interfaith march for, ⁓ Tolerance human rights and peace, organized by rabbis for human rights and by many other organizations. ⁓ and we are marching, you know, members of all, you know, the three religions. ניר חסון: Right. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ Again talking about the role of religion actually to bring people together to promote tolerance and to promote you know share society rather than hatred and hostility. think it's important to note that while we're seeing this terrible phenomenon that has been growing over the years and has. not have you know we didn't see any response of the authorities we see many people who do not share their views and obviously we need to amplify the other views because this is so important on the day and yeah. ניר חסון: What? Yeah, yes, you're right. And it's also very not Jerusalemite event like like most of the people they they are not from Jerusalem, as I told you before. Yeah, they come from the outside ⁓ and most the Jerusalemites that I know hate this day and hate this event, hate this march ⁓ And just wait to get over with ⁓ Josh Weinberg: People come in and flock to Jerusalem from outside, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's very important. Josh Weinberg: I just want to get back to the question of integration because when you ask, let's say residents of the Muslim court in the old city, do they understand that this is not necessarily representative of all of Israel and that there is a whole other population in West Jerusalem? And how do we counter that with the sort of desire by some in the Palestinian community? what they call sort of anti-normalization, know, against, you know, the integration and we want to have our own, but we want to be treated equally and like how to sense of that for us if you can, you know. ניר חסון: No. Well, it's a bit difficult. one thing I have to say is that the Palestinian society know about the Israeli society much more than what we as Israelis know about the Palestinians. They understand very well that they are extremists. They know Ben Gvir very well. They know the politicians. They they speak like on average, the Palestinians speak much better Hebrew than Israelis speak ⁓ Josh Weinberg: That's it. That's it. Mmm. ניר חסון: So they know they understand what's going on. Now there are all kinds of streams and as I told you before it's 400,000 people. It's a huge city and there are all kinds of political streams in East Jerusalem. And there is also the stream of the people who believe in anti-normalization and opposed any connection with Israel. I think today they are a minority Most of the people will say I, in my daily life, I can do much more. I can be, I can study Hebrew. I can go to the, I can go to the Hebrew university. I can send my ⁓ to learn the Bagrut the Israeli curriculum. I can work with Israelis, but it doesn't mean anything about my identity as a Palestinian. And think we as Jews can understand it because ⁓ Binyamin Zeev Herzl was the one who, you know, baptized his son and called him Hans and went to integrate into the German society. But he's the one who himself as ⁓ created the Zionism, ⁓ the National Jewish movement. And we can see it also in the Israeli Arabs, right? Josh Weinberg: Wanted to assimilate, yes. National Liberation Movement of the Jewish People. Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Nation safe, ⁓ ניר חסון: The Israeli Arab moved into Israelization much further than the ⁓ in Jerusalem. You know that today the percentage of doctors in Israel, Arabs doctors in Israel is higher than ⁓ percentage in population. It's more than 20%, right? And we have politicians in the Knesset and Ahmad Tibi I think is the... ⁓ politician with the best Hebrew in the Knesset and they move into Israelization on the daily life and to integration into Israeli society, but their Palestinian identity only gets stronger during the time. They ⁓ and their with their brothers in in ⁓ Gaza and the West Bank only gets stronger even though in the daily life they are in the in the Israeli. So life is complicated. And I think in Jerusalem as well, ⁓ in Israel think that this process of Israelization will solve the problem of Jerusalem, ⁓ say forget about it. It's solving any problem. I do think it's lowering the violence. I do think that the fact we don't have much violence in Jerusalem in the last few years, this is because of Israelization, because People know each other much better. have much more to lose. ⁓ it's a fact. ⁓ I do think that the fact that we didn't have much ⁓ attacks and clashes on street of the Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem in the last few years, it's also because ⁓ of process that I talk about. But it doesn't solve the problem. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's it. Yeah. ניר חסון: the basic problem that in in Jerusalem we don't have a democracy. We have two kinds of people and we have one government that only one group can affect the government that the decision. Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: we've talked ⁓ about the ⁓ between Palestinians and Jews in Jerusalem, but I do want to mention we're nearing the end of the episode and I do want to mention ⁓ other tensions. ⁓ Obviously, ⁓ the tension between the ultra-Orthodox and the religious and liberal Jews. And we should say that Jerusalem is very, very special in the sense that the diversity of Jewish life here is amazing. I think this is sort of the capital. of liberal orthodox Jews here, modern orthodoxy, lots of congregations, including Egalitarian Orthodox congregations, and I think this is a phenomenon of the last decades. we see a lot of extremism on many respects, we see a lot of openness, definitely within Judaism, which is beautiful. And we should mention that, you know, we said that we have mixed feelings, all of us, about Jerusalem. There are a lot of beautiful and very unique phenomenas that we're seeing ניר חסון: Thank Orly Erez Likhovski: I'm in Jerusalem that we should mention here and another thing I wanted to mention is the LGBTQ community here in Jerusalem we remember the murder of Shira Benki in 2015 in the pride parade a girl sixteen year old was murdered by an ultra orthodox zealot I think today and we're going to have the pride parade in less than a month I think the. the central of the lgbtq community in Jerusalem is not questioned anymore and i think that while ⁓ you about about immigration of secular people out of Jerusalem and Jerusalem is more secular than it was when i don't know like my husband to group in Jerusalem and more when you grew up i mean we have more places that are open it's not obviously it's not like tel aviv at all. but, there are some developments with the other side i think it's important to sort of convey the complexity. ניר חסון: Bye. Orly Erez Likhovski: of the city and it really goes to many many directions. ניר חסון: Yeah, I agree. think, I think the liberal camp in Jerusalem won two, like few important battles. One of them is on That on Shabbat today, there are more, ⁓ mean, there's not a lot, but there's a bit more businesses open. and I, are a few cinemas ⁓ that working in, in, Shabbat in which was, was nothing when, when I grew up in the city like 30 years ago. And of the LGBTQ place in the city ⁓ the Parade et cetera. But there is one battle that I think we are losing with the liberal community Jerusalem. It doesn't matter if we are secular or not. ⁓ And ⁓ is battle on the neighborhoods. the change of the characters of the neighborhoods in Jerusalem when ⁓ ⁓ ultra-orthodox community is getting to the neighborhoods and changing the character of the place, shutting down the schools or the community centers and open synagogues and yeshivas and then... part of the Jews that I might do not feel that this is their home anymore. And they and this has pushed them out of the city. this is I think this is a battle that ⁓ are not winning. ⁓ there's no there's almost no secular neighborhood in Jerusalem. Where you you can feel I don't know that ⁓ business opening in Shabbat and And, and can feel, this is a liberal place. and and I think, I it's, it's, it's a problem. the issue is that as I told you before, Jerusalem not the worst city in Israel, of course, there are much worse places to live in. But, but the problem is that people like me, there is a very big competition competition from Aviv. Tel Aviv, it's a better city to live in in many, many categories, in many issues. And Tel Aviv, you know, pull us So this is issue that I think will ⁓ shape the city in coming years and decades. Josh Weinberg: So as we're winding our time down, first of all, maybe can we ask you about optimism a little bit or where you see, both where you see hope, as you mentioned, you alluded to something, and what do you hope for? And then I have two tachlis questions. ניר חסון: Hehehehe ⁓ so as I told you before, think Jerusalem today is a different city than, than this. The city that my, children growing up in today is a very different city than the city that I used to know when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I can live my own life without meeting a Palestinian. I mean, I saw, I saw Palestinian on the street. I saw them, but, but. I didn't have any connection with them. Today, my children, have Palestinians in the classroom, the lifeguard in the swimming pool in Liyada. ⁓ is the high school there. How will I? Josh Weinberg: Where do they go to school? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, the same as my son. Yeah, maybe we have in the same class. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ they go to the end, okay. ניר חסון: they have the, the, the, the life guard in the swimming pool is a Palestinian. They will have Palestinian university for sure. They will work with Palestine. They will know Palestinians. So, ⁓ is give me some hope. Orly Erez Likhovski: going to a very very good school, liberal school, that is very unique in the Israel, we have today. ⁓ ניר חסון: you are right but go go to Jaffa Street count how many hijab do you see there? And and coming for shopping, you know, food cleaning the the the restaurants, right? ⁓ And and is a new phenomenon. It wasn't like this like, yeah, ⁓ and go the lightrail, the lightrail, actually, that the red the red line of the lightrail it's the first Josh Weinberg: especially with the light rail. Yeah. ניר חסון: ⁓ public transportation line in Jerusalem, which is mixed between Palestinian neighborhoods and Israeli neighborhoods. Orly Erez Likhovski: And by the way between haredim and secular people too and there is no segregation in the right light rail which is really interesting. ניר חסון: Exactly. And my point is that if we learn something from October 7 is that the place that we had the biggest war, the war that go to the bottom of earth and to the sky with the most expensive and sophisticated devices on it was the most where people didn't see each other. was the most violent and bloody place between the sea and river and the sea. And the place where there is no wall, there is no wall between Silwan and Bet Ha Kerem place where ⁓ is no wall in Haifa, there is no wall ⁓ Jaffa, this was the most common place. This was the places where... not in October 8, but in October 10, went back to work and keep working together. So what gives me... Orly Erez Likhovski: And this gives you hope of a different future that is possible. ניר חסון: And this gives me hope that one day we could find a way to tear down the and ⁓ see de dehumanization Yeah. after, under current leadership of Israel, which is the worst leadership that one can imagine, I think. we went through a process. of dehumanize the Palestinians. And the only way to think about different futures, re-humanize Palestinians in the eyes of Israelis and the Israelis in the eyes of Palestinians. And the way to do it is to meet with each other on an equal base. And this is what we have in Jerusalem ⁓ kind of island Jerusalem and other places that we have. If there is hope, it's there. Josh Weinberg: Okay, well, Nir, what is your favorite place to eat hummus in Jerusalem? Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye! ניר חסון: my God. So I ⁓ share it, you know, this is because. ⁓ my God. You are going, I'm, I'm, cannot see my, I cannot ⁓ go the old city anymore. If I will say Okay. ⁓ I will two these, there, there is the Arafat hummus place in the old Hummus Arafat, which considered to be, and there's also El Karmawi Hummus. Josh Weinberg: This is the most charged political question that we can ask, right? This is the, you know, very. Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of listeners in the Muslim quarter, think it's... Who was Arafat in the old city? Okay. ניר חסון: outside of Damascus Gate, is also very good. But there are many others. And there is even one Jewish restaurant, which has very good Hummus So there is that ⁓ Pinati, like Pinati as well. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Can you share the name? this... So you're a Pinati, okay, yeah. And just to clarify, the original, or are you okay eating any of the franchises? Because that is where I draw the line myself. Yeah, okay. No, they're in different malls and they have Pinati in different places. Like in Givat Shaul they have Pinati. Yeah, so okay, let's just... Right, thank you. Okay, I just wanted to make sure that that's good. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's it. Yeah. ניר חסון: The Pinati? Only the original? They have franchises? I didn't know about it. Okay. ⁓ my god. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: ⁓ Well, Nir, thank you so much for being with us and for sharing your insight and experience reporting on Jerusalem over so many years, especially around Yom Yerushalayim and Jerusalem Day. It's really important to have conversations about the city. I don't know if we solved anything, but I think you helped paint us a picture and really get into some of the issues ⁓ sharing a little bit about the Jerusalem that we still hope ⁓ exist for the future. So really thank you so much. ניר חסון: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for this conversation. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, thank you Nir, it's really been an eye ⁓ conversation not easy ⁓ all the time but super super important to understand the reality and then think ⁓ what we want to change about this ניר חסון: Thank you. Orly Erez Likhovski: conversations like this are exactly why we started this this podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share the episode and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: I was really worried about that happening to me. So I started off with listening to this episode of the Pluralist Podcast, which talks all about Jerusalem. And, uh, you know, that's what I'm going to do all. And now I will not forget. And so if you leave a review like that, that will be really helpful to this. And then send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. And if you feel like sponsoring an episode, it's a great way to mark an anniversary or a birthday or possibly even Yom Yerushalayim. Orly Erez Likhovski: And now I'm not going to forget. I'm never gonna forget it. Josh Weinberg: So thank you so much and we'll be back with you soon. Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye bye. ניר חסון: Bye bye, thank you.