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Why the NHL Wants Houston: Expansion, Obstacles & the lure of Hockey in Houston · Backchecking the Bolts

• Jason Linkes: Coming up, I'm back checking the bolts. I think Houston is the obvious choice for thirty-three. And I have this theory that Bettman doesn't want to or Bettman wants to, I don't want to say correct mistakes, but I think Bettman wants to Don't tell me Phoenix. Or Atlanta. I think it's gonna happen. I think Bettman wants to make cities work that he couldn't make work before. So when he leaves, because he's mentioned retirement a few times, I think he wants to go. C told you when it works out. So I think it's Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix. The real the only real question is who's franchise 36? Welcome to Back Checking the Bolts. Back Checking the Bolts is your cup of coffee to get you the latest on the Tampa Bay Lightning. Join host Jason Lincas and the managing editor of Raw Charge, Justin Godfrey, as they break down the Lightning's most recent games and go beyond the highlights, telling you what the box scores didn't. It's time to drop the puck. Hi, everybody, and welcome to Back Checking the Bolts. I'm your host, Jason Lincas. Well, there's not a whole lot of lightning news to talk about today, but a few weeks ago, Justin and I debated the NHL expansion news. Was it going to be Austin, Texas? Was it going to be Houston? Now, back then, I was thinking my pick was Austin, Texas. And when I put that on social media, I put a couple shorts out there. A person that reached out to me was Matt Savage from the Mission Control Hockey Podcast. And Matt tried to set me straight a little bit on why Houston was the right pick. So I reached out to Matt and he's gracious enough to join us today. Matt Savage, thank you for being on Back Checking the Bolts. Great having you here today. Hi, Jason. I'm happy to be here. And ⁓ I apologize if I was a little too defensive in that initial social media exchange, but obviously this is a topic near and dear to my heart. Well, sure, it's near and dear. The other thing is too, Matt, you gave me realistic data on why Houston should be chosen over Austin. That's what I look for. Anyone can say, yeah, I want this city, I want that city, but you gave me realistic data on why Houston. And I remember one of the things that you told me was the average age of the people in Houston, especially the metro area. The national average is just over thirty-nine years old. Houston is thirty-five. When advertisers look to market to certain groups, certain cities, that 25 to 45 age group is huge. Matt, tell us a little bit about the city of Houston and how it's evolved, especially over the last 20 years, with as many northerners who have moved down there. Sure. ⁓ the statistic that keeps getting thrown around is that we're the fourth largest city in the United States, and we're the largest. Metro population without an NHL team. And and that is true. And I'll bang on the desk and s and say that as well. But population isn't everything. ⁓ or or number of population isn't everything. We have Fortune five hundred companies. We are ⁓ we we're the hub of the oil and gas industry with ExxonMobil, Coneco, Philip Sixty Six, ⁓ some technology companies like ⁓ HP Enterprise, ⁓ You you probably know every name that I could I could throw at you here. The other thing that we don't that outsiders don't realize about Houston, I believe the last time I looked at this stat is we are the ⁓ largest metro area in terms of Hispanic population, which I saw this desist statistics somewhere and please don't ask me to pull it up. I'm sure AI can find it. ⁓ but I the second largest growing demographic for hockey viewership is the Latino population. You know, really. So yeah. Yeah. And ⁓ I read that and I'm like, well then why are we even talking about this? You know, if you if Batman's goal is to grow the game, ⁓ obviously southern markets are where you go. ⁓ apologies to Canadian hockey fans, but that's just that's how it is. And by the way, whenever I see a northern or Canadian hockey fan ⁓ just go, We should stop expansion to the south, I'm not mad at you. I understand. I completely I'm with ya. ⁓ but you know, selfishly, I'm in Houston and I want my town to to have its team. ⁓ we are a ⁓ diverse population. ⁓ you know, we talked about and and as much as we may not like the subdivision of America, ⁓ we do have a lot of different populations. We are a kind of a cultural salad bowl of different flavors. ⁓ we are Old industry meets new technology. one of the things that I say in our comparison with ⁓ with Austin is that Austin is sexy. And I'll give you that. ⁓ from an outsider, keep Austin weird. ⁓ it's a college town, it's young. Fine. Austin is sexy, and by comparison, Houston is gray. But that gray represents building. That gray represents progress. Here's something you might not be aware of. Houston as far as ⁓ size is a larger area than any of the other metro areas because whereas other cities tend to build up, we have the space, we have the low population density, we build out. A common saying around here is that Houston is an hour away from Houston. ⁓ So I know that from traveling there. ⁓ well, when I stayed in Katy getting downtown, it felt like ⁓ I was on Gil Gilligan's Island's SS Minnow was a three hour tour. So you so you do understand. ⁓ and ⁓ the stat I like to throw out there is that ⁓ Houston is thus far, well, where the first word mentioned on the moon and also thus far the last word mentioned while on the surface of the moon. ⁓ So yeah, we have that technology. We have the old money. We have kind of ⁓ nineteen seventies old money vibe that's kind of ⁓ a weird niche culture ⁓ in America. someone in your comments, if they've ever been to Houston, is gonna throw out, ⁓ the food in Houston is great. They might tell you Man, I hate the weather. I hate the humidity, but I can't lie about the food, and I can't lie about good looking women living in Houston, right? That's just how it is. ⁓ the other thing about Houston turn on any sports broadcast, and you're gonna see something sponsored by the local hospital network in the area. Okay. Houston has the Texas Medical Center. Houston has the MD Anderson Cancer Center. We are the hub for whatever reason, however, this evolved, we are the hub of medical technology. Some of that might be from Dr. DeBakey's ⁓ heart work. I I don't know how it evolved, but it did. And if you look at any sports broadcasts, they're always sponsored and somehow by a medical system. And I'm like, man, if I'm the NHL and I see an opportunity to get the Texas Medical Center. Or MD Anderson Cancer Center on board with ⁓ sponsoring our broadcast or any portion of it, why would I not jump at that? So when I when I look at the Houston Austin competition that even Austin press is saying, ⁓ no, we're being used for leverage, I actually think Austin's a threat. But if I'm the NHL, I'm like, why are we even talking about Should we or shouldn't we pull the trigger with Houston? But that's me, and obviously I'm biased. Well, the one thing that I liked about Austin was very similar to Vegas. The NHL was first. And when you are a sport that is a little bit more of a niche sport, and I don't care where you are in this country, the NHL in the United States is mainly a number two or a number three in every city. And in some cities, they're a number four. And I do think there is value to being. The first there. That being said, one of the things that I did like about Houston, the number of Fortune 500 companies. Now I knew there was a lot, but there's 24 to 27. And when you're looking for sponsors, you're looking to fill arenas, they're not relying on cease and ticket holders. You need the corporate people to buy your boxes, to buy those seats down low. That's how NHL teams survive. And Houston has a chance to have that. Now I want to talk about the the possibility of Houston being that thirty third NHL franchise. What's the excitement like right now in Houston? You know, there is a lot of excitement there. my whole show is based on news, rumors, speculation, and outright lies about maybe one day getting an NHL team. ⁓ so so there is there's a lot of talk, a lot of whispers, there's a lot of hey I heard, or hey I read. But I'll be honest with you, Jason, there's a lot of ⁓ we're gonna get screwed again, aren't we? There's a lot of ⁓ man, they're gonna find a way to deny us again, aren't they? Because ⁓ and you know, I was I was talking to someone earlier in Houston. ⁓ the it's not just the Houston hockey history that's bizarre and a lot of ⁓ man, almost, or ⁓ man, if not for just one more year or you know, whatever factor, if not for this one billionaire that I'm sure you'll want to talk about later, we'd we'd have a team. But also are all of our sports are like this. You know, what are the Oilers known for? They're known for the choke, you know, and then we have a stadium issue and that guy splits and we haven't had success since. You know, the Rockets, they finally win their championships. And what's the story? Well, yeah, but Jordan wasn't in the league then. You know, the Astros, we win our World Series and Bangin' trash cans. Little bit of controversy on that ⁓ on that first one. Now I'll maintain they didn't do anything that no one else wasn't doing either, but it still worked out how it did, and there's still at at least a metaphorical asterisk, if not an a an actual one next to that World Series title. So the history of Houston sports is a lot of frustration. You know, I made the comment the other day when Daly made his comment and Pundit started saying, Yeah, it looks 90% likely that Houston's going to get the team. My comment was, man, I can't wait to be disappointed in our NHL team. Yeah. Because that's that's what being a Houston sports fan is. And for those of you who didn't catch it, Bill Daly was on a podcast and said Houston is the clear front runner. A few weeks ago, it was Houston or Austin. It's clearly Houston. Dan Friedkin. The billionaire owner who is fronting the money for this expansion franchise has basically said along with Bill Daly that it is Houston right now that they're looking at. Austin is a distant second. So we talked a little bit about the Houston hockey history, and I want to educate some of the people at home just how many bridesmaid dresses the city of Houston has had when it's come to hockey. Matt, you and I were talking about this off the air. The Cleveland Barons, they almost came To Houston when they went bankrupt. Instead, they ended up merging with the Minnesota North Stars. They went there. The arrows were in the WHA. When the WHA went down to six teams and eventually merged with the NHL, it was between Houston and Hartford. Hartford Whalers get the call. They go to the NHL. Houston's left without a team. And ninety seven was probably the closest. Peter Pockington, the Edmonton Oilers owner. had a deal in place to sell the team and I believe it was to Les Alexander. Is that correct, Matt? Yes. you know, I gotta tell you, there are those who will say different, but when that story broke, I never bought it. ⁓ even at the I'm like, I'm like, nope, we're leverage. We're leverage. And And I've I've heard from people that ⁓ are supposedly in the know that are like, ⁓ no, that was almost a done deal. Broadcasters, sports insiders are like, no, that was almost a done deal. That was an eleventh hour saving of the Oilers. Now, what's interesting about the WHA ⁓ iteration of the Arrows, and by the way, when we get our team, if it's not the Arrows, I'll be very disappointed, as will pretty much every Houston hockey fan. but ⁓ it's not gonna be the Apollo's. And for those of you who don't know, the Apollo's were the affiliate for the Montreal Canadians back in sixty five through sixty nine. Who had this obscure player, ⁓ well, actually there were two versions of the Apollo's. ⁓ there was prior to the WHA coming in, and they were still a Central Hockey League. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Central hockey league. ⁓ prior to the WHA coming in, they played at the arena that the Sam Houston Coliseum that the Arrows played in. When the arrows left, Montreal sent them back here for like two years. And ⁓ there was an obscure player ⁓ that played a couple of games with the Apollo's ⁓ by the name of Marc Messier. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, the the interesting thing about the WHA is our owner ⁓ he saw I I don't know what his motivation was, but he saw the writing on the wall of the WHA he's like, okay. Let's get to the NHL. And there's a season ticket drive and everything. And winds up showing that Houston can't support the NHL and had a deal with ⁓ I want to say the Colorado Rockies. I believe that's correct, but ⁓ that might need to be fact checked. And thinks he has a deal, announces to the WHA hey, Houston's leaving, we're going to the NHL. And then the eleventh hour, the rug gets pulled f out from under him and that team winds up becoming what is now the New Jersey Devils. So we're out of the league we're out we're out of the WHA. I say we c like I was there, but ⁓ Houston Houston is out of the WHA for a year prior to that WHA NHL merger. And we weren't part of the league, so we're not part of the merger. So there's a lot of what ifs. What if we held on for another year? But That's what it's like to be a Houston sports fan. Well, take us back to 2013. Sure. Houston had a team that started off in the IHL, went to the AHL, had a lot of success, won a Calder Cup, and they had really good attendance, top 10 in the league. And then in 2013, that team ended up relocating to Des Moines, Iowa. But there's a lot more behind that story, Matt. Tell us about that. Right. So When the Arows were in the International League and they win a Turner Cup in ninety nine, the summit is where they played, also where the Rockets played, but the summit was designed for hockey. It was designed for that WHA iteration of the Arrows. And the owner of the Arrows held the lease for the summit. And this was to the chagrin of Les Alexander, who owned the Rockets. ⁓ the Rockets win two titles. We're a town that starved for titles. a new organization, the Harris County Sport Authority, gets ⁓ gets created, partially because the Oilers just left. So Les Alexander says, I want a new stadium, and the sport authority going, We don't want to lose another team. We especially don't want to lose the team that just won two titles, gives the Rockets owner whatever they want, which is the lease. So With that lease, the Rockets owner starts putting the screws to the Aeros owner and jacks up the rate of rent by like five times. Okay. And obviously there's no minor league team that could afford that. So they sell to Minnesota Sports and Entertainment who ⁓ the arrows under the AHL were the affiliate of the Minnesota Wild. So there's Right now there's some dispute. It's like, well, can we use the name Arrows or does Minnesota own it? And the answer to that is a giant question mark. ⁓ because I've heard some rumors that like, no, Minnesota, when they bought the team, it was one of the provisions. There were a couple of things like, well, one of the practice facilities, Houston can keep the name. Anyway, ⁓ so Les Alexander puts the screws to the arrows, the arrows wind up leaving. ⁓ Alexander says I can make more money in concerts than I can on minor league hockey, which is probably true if there were enough concerts to fill up those 40 something dates that the minor league schedule would happen. Just anecdotally, because I I was obsessed and angry and all that, I would drive by the marquee of the Toyota Center and check the website. Do you have a bunch of concerts coming in? And granted there were more, It may have been enough to offset the loss of the arrows. I don't know. But there were a lot of empty dates also. I, you know, I don't think he filled the entire arrow schedules. ⁓ when when I hear in YouTube comments or whatever, well, Houston couldn't even support the AHL. No, the attendance wasn't the issue. It was millionaires playing games with each other. It was politicians allowing millionaires to play games with each other. And and the same thing with the WHA. The WHA attendance was good for the WHA by the standards of the time. ⁓ the issue was the WHA was a failing league, or towards the end of it it was, and the owner wanted to shoot the moon and go for the NHL, and sometimes things don't work out. And you know, we we missed the train when it was leaving. The one thing I will say about the WHA NHL merger. There was a lot of resentment by a lot of those owners when the WHA tried to merge. It wasn't until John Ziegler became the commissioner and was able to talk to enough people to get it to happen. The other reason why it happened, Molson Beer was an owner of the Montreal Canadiens and they were opposed to the merger. When the small market teams at Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg found out about it, they boycotted Molson Beer. And that financial hit was a reason why eventually the Canadians came around and supported the merger. I gotta look that up. That's a hell of a story. I and I have no problem believing it, but because that's the that's the history of the WHA. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I need to I need to look into that. There's gotta be a documentary or something out there. Well if you really want a documentary, watch the one where the St. Louis Blues almost moved the Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Yeah. W while Bill Hunter, the former owner, almost made that happen. He actually bought the team and the NHL said, Well, there's no way we're putting a team in Saskatoon. But hey, let's talk a little bit more, Matt, about the Houston bid. Why now? Happy to do that. Why now? Why now? Les Alexander, the Rockets owner, had some resentment towards the NHL, partially for that ⁓ Edmonton bid that you mentioned earlier when things didn't work out. He felt he got jacked around and he's like, okay, ⁓ enough. And he blocked other efforts to get the NHL here. So when Tillman Fertita bought the Rockets, you know, the first question was probably, well, how much did you pay or whatever? Because supposedly he beat out Beyonce's bid. But question number two was, hey, can we get the NHL now? He looked into it. He tried to buy the coyotes when they were failing, but then they wind up going to Utah. But my impression was he wanted an NHL team if he could get one on the cheap. And he couldn't. And I think that if Salt Lake hadn't stepped in, then maybe we'd be the Houston Coyotes now, but who knows, right? So anyway, why now is because the blocks that were put by Les Alexander and also ⁓ political movers and shakers that were supporting Les Alexander are no longer standing standing in the way. And now that we don't have that, there's no reason for us to not have a team. ⁓ we now have an investor who's willing to build a stadium and do all the spend all the money it takes to get a franchise. He's gonna make a kill it off the deal. Why wouldn't he do that? But ⁓ we now have everything in place that we didn't before. Matt, tell us about that investor. It's Dan Friedkin. And if you follow the business, Dan Freakin, member of the Freeken companies, they're worth a boatload. And his package is in excess of $3.5 billion to get this team to Houston. Tell us a little bit about Dan Friedkin. So that $3.5 billion is also contingent on some of that money goes to the arena and some of it goes towards practice facilities. It's not all ⁓ the mo majority of it's going to the owners, but not all of it's going to the owners. Some of it is for hockey investment. Dan Freakin owns Gulf States Toyota, which is a chain like it sounds, it's a chain of Toyota dealerships. ⁓ and they're everywhere. ⁓ he also owns, you know, when I heard his name, I started looking them up. He owns ⁓ AS Roma and which is a Serie A. I don't know enough about ⁓ football. ⁓ and he also owns ⁓ he just bought ⁓ Everton in the ⁓ Champions League. I went looking for the fan forums just to see what people thought about the owner. And no one's cursing his name. My conclusion is if people's reaction to your sports team owner is meh, then I think you're okay because I don't know any sports fan that just loves their ownership group. You know, it's either we love our team. despite the owner like Cowboys fans or or we hate this team, we hate this owner, like Pittsburgh Pirates fans. or or it's no comment, you know? And I think no comment is ⁓ is pretty great. So ⁓ so that's his ownership as far as I could tell. The only criticism I real or the criticism I kept hearing was well he doesn't come to the games. And it's like, well yeah, he lives in Houston ⁓ his kids go to the games, but ⁓ yeah, he's busy here. So I don't know. ⁓ I'm hoping being a a local guy, ⁓ he'll be more involved ⁓ in the team here. But you know, time will tell. ⁓ he also has a media company ⁓ who's done a couple of films. And if you're into Landman, ⁓ the show with ⁓ yeah. ⁓ Billy Bon Billy Bob Thornton. There we go. Yep. ⁓ that show with Billy Bob Thornton, he ⁓ because he's also got his hands in some oil and gas stuff, he works as a technical consultant, or not he, but his group does some technical consulting about that. And I'm like, you know, wouldn't it be great if our if our team owner is the guy who had a hand in that monologue where Billy Bob Thornton is talking about the necessity of the oil and gas industry? You know, that to me being a Houston boy. That ⁓ that sounds great. We talked about the ownership but the arena situation. The Toyota Center, from what I've heard where the Rockets play, is more of a basketball arena. And I'm gonna take people back a little bit from Tampa. The Orlando arena where the Magic used to play, when the Orlando Solar Bears were there, you went in the upper deck and you could not see if you were behind the net, you could not see the goal right below you. There are some Things that just don't fit in basketball arenas that a hockey arena needs. You saw it at the Baraclay Center where the Islanders were playing. And also you're seeing it in Utah right now where there's a lot of limited view seats. Couple questions, Matt. First, is the Toyota Center where they're going to be? And second of all, is this going to be a new brand new NHL arena that we're talking about? No, yes. Both of those, I'll put an asteroid next to. so No, I can't imagine the Toyota Center being the home of a new NHL team. ⁓ just because you're on a temporary basis? Well, there's my asterisk because I'm of the opinion that the NHL is allergic to the word temporary after what happened in Phoenix. And I know, I know it's a completely different situation, but I can't imagine the NHL will go ⁓ yeah, well we'll just put you up for a year or two and then with more construction delays, you know, it just winds up not happening and the NHL is paying rent to a rival sports league owner. None of that makes sense to me. That having been said, for three and a half billion dollars, if freaking is like, hey guys, we're not gonna be ready, do you mind if I, you know, crash on my buddy's couch for a year and we'll we'll stay at Tillman's place? I can't imagine the league's gonna go, yeah, no, three and a half billion isn't enough to do that, you know? money talks. Yeah. So there's a couple of things here. In our Astrodome area, we've had a news report that someone's been looking at that area for the NHL arena. I don't see that happening, and the reason I don't see that happening is the Texans have been vocal about wanting to get out of that area because they're they play in that area. The NRG Stadium is next to the what the Astrodome or the shell of it, what's left of it. ⁓ we have the largest livestock show on rodeo in the country ⁓ taking place in that area and the rodeo is looking to get out of that area. So I can't I I can't conceive of a of a brand new team wanting to go in that area where the legacy events are looking to move from. The majority of the wealth in the Houston area is on the north side. so I know you know our town a little bit. Katy, northwest side, woodlands area makes a lot more sense. And really, if you were to build a brand new arena where Toyota Center is now, it still wouldn't make sense. So it makes more sense to get them away from the downtown central business district area. We'll see what happens. The one parallel I would say is the Atlanta Braves. The Atlanta Braves moved out of downtown Atlanta, moved to the northwest suburbs, just south of Cartersville, and they've turned it into an entertainment destination. It's also, like you said, in in Houston where the woodlands is, it's where the money is. Now there's an ECHL team that's slated to go into the woodlands, but Matt, do you think that Hey, if they have a chance to get the NHL, they're gonna bypass the ECHL opportunity. I think you can do both. I mean, the ⁓ the closest ⁓ NHL team for from us, this is something I'm not sure that your Catampa listeners may may understand. Dallas is three to four hours, depending on which side of Houston you live on, away from Houston. We're not next door, we're not Tampa, Orlando. ⁓ well it's also Tampa to the f to Tampa to Florida. Depending on where you're at in Tampa, it's a little over four hours to get down to sunrise. Yeah. So our closest NHL team is the Dallas Stars. ⁓ and by the way, I catch such a hard time being in Houston watching and cheering for the stars because we're supposed to hate everything about them. And I'm like, banner. Well, yeah. I mean, th they're there are limits to everything. I just don't want to get on a plane to go watch the NHL. You know what I mean? ⁓ although the one other team I've seen are are your bolts. Dallas has the ECHL close to the NHL and it works just fine. ⁓ I think you can do both and I think you can serve two different populations with having those two teams. You know, the ECHL is affordable family fun. The, you know, you could afford to go to three times as many ECHL games, you know, as you can, or more than three times ⁓ as many ECHL games as you can NHL games. You know? So the they're two different audiences. I don't know why both can't work. Now can both work in the woodlands? I don't know. And you know, for all my talk that ⁓ no, they're not gonna play at the Toyota Center. No, they're not gonna have a temporary arena. No, they're not gonna be downtown or in Sugarland. I'm happy to be wrong, you know, with with you know, some of the team. Yeah. Some of my listeners, I know they bookmark when I when I make a prediction, they're like, ⁓ I can't wait to tell this guy he's stupid and wrong. I'm happy to be wrong. ⁓ no, I I have an NHL team and it's not where I thought they would be. I'll be fine. It'll be okay. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about the Houston market. Is it oversaturated with sports? Now in Tampa we have we have the Rays, we have the Bucks, we have the Bolts, but in Houston, you have the Astros, the Texans, the Rockets, you have a WNBA team, you have Texas AM who's not that far down the road and is huge. And you have the University of Houston. You have a lot of sports in the city of Houston. Now there's a lot of corporate dollars to be spread around. But when you look at Austin and the San Antonio area, you're other than the University of Texas, who's a big player, you're the only professional sport in town besides soccer. Is that a little bit of a concern that if the team struggles, we're not talking the honeymoon period, we're talking years five, ten, and beyond, if the team struggles, there's so much sports entertainment available that they could fall under the radar a little bit. Well, gee, Jason, it sounds like you just proved the concept that Houston can support pro sports, right? ⁓ without a doubt. Hey, yeah, you don't have that many teams without being able to support it. Exactly. Sure. No, and I understand that completely. ⁓ I'm also gonna push back on discounting Austin sports offerings because University of Texas is a huge network with a very large following. One of the things I hear some of my fellow Houstonians say, Well, Austin doesn't have anything but the MLS. No, don't overlook UT just because you didn't go there. ⁓ you got passionate fans. They and honestly, I'm surprised that the city of Austin is looking for anything that might Take attention away from the University of Texas. They're growing and they realize that, yeah, bringing in Pro Sports. Now, truth be told, if you were talking to me in the 80s, it would be a concern. Because when the when the Houston Astros were the last rows and that giant cavernous astrodome you could hear echo because the one was in the seats because they were so horrible. Yeah, yeah, no, I I'd be like, yeah, that might be a problem. But we've Grown as a sports city, and that's not a concern anymore. At least not in my mind. Now you can look at attendance numbers for ⁓ our sports teams, and I think they would back me up, but I'll be honest with you, I haven't looked at attendance numbers on our other sports teams. But the Texans sell out, and yeah, sure, okay. Football is ubiquitous in Texas, and but we with no success, we're selling out, you know. ⁓ The Astros lately have been peaks and valleys. And I go to those games during valleys too and I don't see a dip in attendance. It's not a playoff game, but it's still pretty great. It's still thirty thousand people in Midamade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ the Rockets haven't had success in a while. They're still doing well attendance wise. So I don't see that's a problem. ⁓ now I will tell you that. The team will need to do some outreach. It will need to educate ⁓ people about the sport. But I think that Houston hockey fans at large are already doing the groundwork on that. We've had it we have an annual event called Hockey Day in Houston. ⁓ cool. This last ⁓ event, 6,000 people were at St. Arnold's Brewery. Now Fans up north or fans in big hockey markets are gonna go, six thousand, that's it. That's nothing. I'm gonna push back on that. Six thousand is AHL attendance. And look, it's hard to be a fan of a sport when there's no team to root for or emulate. And we've been teamless for about 15 years now. And we're still there's that much interest that on a day without a game, you can get six people to go to a brewery and out. Granted, it there's beer and the beer's pretty great. So, but still, there there's six thousand people there wanting to learn more, or if not learn more, to share ⁓ the hobby with others. They're dragging their friends with them. Dude, come to this thing and and meet former Houston arrows, you know. That yeah, we're growing. We had a hundred something girls at our girls' hockey weekend. ⁓ our We have youth hockey programs that are growing. We have women's hockey programs that are growing. We have ⁓ collegiate club teams. I know it bigger schools have or more hockey traditional markets have bigger schools and they're in the NCAA. Okay, fine. We have n we we don't have anything to emulate and still it's working out. We got high school hockey. I'm not the least bit worried. ⁓ about Houston being able to support hockey during the downtimes. The NHL, if they add Houston, will be it'll be franchise number 33. How many do you think they add within a five-year period? Now, I I I do want to preface this by saying the NHL TV contract expires in 2028. Telling whatever TV networks, now streaming networks that you go to that we are going to be in One, two, three, or four more new markets is going to be very attractive. It's yeah, the timing is impeccable. But where do you think this goes? Do we go to thirty-six? Do we go to forty or is it thirty-four? I mean, we'll probably go to forty in our lifetimes, but I mean I think the immediate plan is to go to thirty-six. I I have this pet theory. I think I think Houston is the obvious choice for 33. I would say that if I didn't live in Houston. I know this because when I watched previous rounds of expansion where Houston wasn't even talked about, I'm like, yeah, it's it's gonna be Vegas, you know. So yeah, ⁓ I I think Houston's 33. And I have this theory that Bettman wants to I don't want to say correct mistakes, that's too strong of a term, but I think Bettman wants to Don't tell me Phoenix or Atlanta. I think it's gonna happen. I think Bettman wants to make cities work. that he couldn't make work before. So when he leaves, because he's mentioned retirement a few times, I think he wants to go see told you when it works out. So I think it's Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix. The real the only real question is who's franchise thirty six? And I've heard all kinds of things. I don't think it'll be Quebec. ⁓ I don't either. Weakness of the Canadian dollar is always going to kill Small market Canadian teams. And right now the Canadian dollar, you ⁓ if you have a dollar in the US, you get a buck forty in Canada. They have to pay salaries in US dollars. It's such a detriment to the small market teams. I still think Winnipeg is on thin ice. I really do. And I hate saying it. And and I'll go a step further because I hear in the comments every time ⁓ I'm talking about anything, the NHL has the perfect amount of teams, expansion's a bad idea. If if I were in Tampa, I would go, expansion's a bad idea. You know, the only reason I am advocating for Houston NHL expansion is because we don't have a team. But you know what? I I would be happy if they folded Winnipeg and then gave Houston a franchise, you know? But that's not how it works. You don't get extra money doing that. So yeah, the league's gonna go to thirty-six teams. ⁓ you know, I used to think that, ⁓ Bettman's gonna give Gonna throw Canada a bone before he before he walks out the door. But I think the Canadian dollar, like like you, I think it's too weak for him to actually do that. ⁓ Matt, real quick, we had s we we had we had sports economist Victor Matheson on a couple podcasts ago. And I have a bookmarked, I haven't checked it out yet. I'm gonna find time to watch that because that's an interesting topic. I asked him about expansion and I said if you are looking to grow the game financially. Where do you go? And he said a second team in Toronto. His second response was a second team in Montreal. Now I wasn't surprised at the Toronto, I was surprised at the Montreal one. I really was. Yeah. ⁓ you know, the PWHL put a team in Hamilton, and I thought that was great. It's like saying, We're not the other version of the NHL. We're gonna do things our way and and the market can support it. I would love to see Hamilton Tigers mark two. I would love that. Here's why it won't happen though, because of the Buffalo Sabres. Because over thirty percent of their season ticket holders are from that side of the border. And if you take a if you have a team in Hamilton and Hamilton's is is a stone's throw away from Buffalo. I've made the drive probably a hundred times. That you are going to one hit their territorial rights and second of all, you're going to take some of their season ticket base. Buffalo today, if they were if they did not have a team and they went after an expansion franchise with the size of Buffalo would never get one. They wouldn't have an NFL franchise. And I think right now they're the 50th largest US TV market. But they have a team. They support it well. I think if you put a team in Hamilton, even though I think Hamilton would support it well, I think You're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Yeah. ⁓ Hamilton or second Toronto, which the lease would never allow and Rogers would never allow. ⁓ so gun to head or if you if you maybe put money on it, I'd put it on Indianapolis. And the reason I say that is because when all these cities got talked about, ⁓ when they first started whispering That yeah, there might be some teams interested in an expansion. You know, ⁓ I think it was Daily, named off a bunch of cities, and I'm my ears perked off because I'm like, I hadn't heard Indianapolis, and we haven't heard it since. And I mentioned that because I heard Dan Freakin, and then time passed, and I never saw a news story. I never saw anything else, and I'm like, ⁓ I guess that was a rumor that dried up. And then next thing you know, Emily Kaplan's talking about it on ESPN. So when those rumors start up, don't just forget about them because there's probably something to it. So I did an episode where I did I tried to look for a mathematical formula of what the league looks for in terms of population, media market size, corporate sponsorship, and all of that. I didn't even think Indianapolis the first time I did this hockey math episode. So I heard that name and I'm like, all right, let me plug them in with the same formula that I use for everything else. And Indianapolis shot right up there to number three behind Houston at Atlanta. So really? Yeah. Yeah, it surprised me too. Wow. So I I wasn't expecting that. Yeah. Yeah. I figured, ⁓ they'll be, you know, kind of mid range. Nope. Nope. Higher than Milwaukee. Yeah. So, Matt, you and I are sitting in Gary Bettman's office. Mm-hmm. And Gary Bettman says, Matt. I'm not convinced Houston's the right market. What is the strongest argument you could make to change his mind? Well, my first response is I'm gonna tell him I don't believe him. I I don't. ⁓ but okay, fine. If if he wants me to persuade him, I I will point at our population. But like I mentioned earlier, size of the population isn't isn't everything. Because if it was The NHL would just expand to Mexico City and say, ⁓ look at how big this population is. You know, no, that's that's not realistic. But when you take everything the league is looking for, look, you guys have a TV contract coming up. You're gonna try to negotiate a TV contract without the number six market in the United States, really, or the number seven market in North America. That makes no sense whatsoever. ⁓ the NHL likes their big events. That ⁓ stadium series they had in Tampa. ⁓ that was cool. I have been banging the drum. The stadium series is stupid. The winter classic is stupid because the sight lines are awful. There's a reason you don't play hockey in baseball stadiums. You know, when I see the image on TV and there's that 50 yards between front row seats and the glass, I'm like, who's paying three times the the ticket price to be a part of this? That's dumb. And then I saw what Tampa did. Now, if you look, by the way, Cinderella ⁓ is my assistant ⁓ for my show here. but ⁓ when I saw what Tampa did, I'm like, man, can you imagine this in Houston? Can you imagine the ⁓ having the Saturn V rocket in the background of of an NHL rink? Can you imagine? The astronaut theming. the whole reason I named my show Mission Control was because it's like if we don't get the arrows, we're gonna have some kind of space name because that's what we do, right? but just there's so much theming. Like if you look at the early seasons of the Astrodome, where they had the Ushers wearing the space helmets and ⁓ and all that silliness. ⁓ No, they did. Yeah. And they had ⁓ I guess you call them waitresses. They were wearing like space helmets and had little ⁓ astronaut affectations on their outfits and stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ you know, I see stuff like that. You you could do it big in Houston. ⁓ we mentioned earlier the corporate sponsorship. We mentioned earlier the Latino population. ⁓ I don't see a downside. That having been said, you know, there's a lot of naysayers in my comments or just out in social media ⁓ hockey will never work in Houston. We don't know. It's never been tried. You know, ⁓ the WHA was been been tried and it seemed to be doing okay. The IHL and AHL's been tried, it seemed to do okay. You know, I I've been saying this. Give us a shot. If it doesn't work out, I'll stop whining. But the AHL version of the Houston Arrows left in twenty thirteen. And I've been whining ever since. And I'm man enough to admit, no, I've been whining ever since. Ever since. You know, if we try it and it doesn't work, okay, I concede. That's fine. That's fine. Hey Matt, tell us about the mission control po hockey podcast. Sure. ⁓ you know, ⁓ I I got the feeling that ⁓ we were about to be ⁓ considered for expansion, and ⁓ then that Emily Kaplan ESPN story broke, and then you know what news story happened next? Nothing. There was radio silence for months on end. And I'm and I'm sitting here, I'm looking at podcasts, and I'm like, well, is no one following up on this? Is no one chasing down rumors? And I'm not a journalist. I'm a I'm a I'm a US history teacher. I didn't when I started know the hockey family here in Houston. And there really is a tight-knit family in Houston that I just I wasn't part of that culture. But eventually I'm I I got to where I'm like, you know, if If no one's gonna talk about this, I'll talk about it. And it's it's growing. It's a small show. That's okay. There's no team. It's fine. Over time, as that algorithm works and it starts pushing out to other people, there are other people that are like, Yes, I would like to talk hockey with you. So that's what we do. I've I've had on ⁓ some fantastic guests. I had ⁓ Jackson. You Michelle Petit, former Lightning player on not that long ago. I had Michelle Petit on. Yeah. ⁓ 18 year NHL veteran and ⁓ the man behind ⁓ Houston's ECHL efforts. ⁓ I've had committee members from Hockey Day in Houston. ⁓ yeah. And ⁓ sometimes I'm just like, hey, let's let's talk. ⁓ I had on ⁓ the guys from Hockey Hot Stove who cover ⁓ Who ⁓ write for also for the Philadelphia Flyers and ⁓ do some coverage for ⁓ the hockey news. And ⁓ I didn't know what to expect when I when I started the show. But ⁓ I'm happy to say that the majority of the players have embraced my efforts. And ⁓ you know, I I just ⁓ I want to talk hockey and people are wanting to talk hockey with me, and it's fantastic. Matt Savage, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. Look forward to talking with you a little bit more when we find out if Houston gets that team. And I have every reason to believe the 33rd team in the NHL is going to be the Houston. We'll call them the Arrows for now. But Matt, can't thank you enough for your time. Thank you, Jason. And in ⁓ you find yourself in the Houston area again, ⁓ send me ⁓ send me a flare. You got it. Sounds good. Hey, for those of you at home, we're going to be coming back next week with Lucas Favale from the Syracuse Crunch. We're going to talk about the The Syracuse Crunch upcoming season, what happened last year, and maybe some players that might be debuting for the lightning coming up in 2026 and 27. If you want to read Justin Godfrey, you can follow him at Rawcharge at www.rawcharge.com. I'm Jason Lincas. Thanks for joining us today. Please hit that like and subscribe button and go bolts. Thank you for listening to Backchecking the Bolts. We are free and available on all platforms, including Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon, YouTube, and Deezer. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can follow Justin on Blue Sky at Rawcharge.com. You can follow the show on X at Tampa underscore bolts underscore pod and on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at BackcheckingTheBolts. 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