Latest / Art of the Question / Why Your Goals Might Not Be Yours (And How to Tell) - Prof. Kennon Sheldon - #56

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Why Your Goals Might Not Be Yours (And How to Tell) - Prof. Kennon Sheldon - #56 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: I was interested to know how did you become interested in studying goal setting and why? Yeah, ⁓ it goes way back to for me to when I was a graduate student at University of California at Davis. And ⁓ I was interested in motivation and well being. but I didn't get into goals until Robert Emmons joined the faculty there, and he's the ⁓ the creator of the personal strivings ⁓ construct and I started working with him and I realized that striving was really a nice unit. to work with and just to tell you what that unit is, you give the participant a blank sheet of paper and you say, ⁓ write down as many of your personal strivings as you can, and give a few examples, but things like stay in shape, ⁓ follow my my values, whatever. And so the the person writes down really as many as they can or as as they want, but usually, you know, about ten is a good amount. And then once they have ⁓ generated those strivings, you have a really nice unit because it's not just the psychologist giving them a question to answer. It's them bringing something out of their own mind that means something to them, hopefully. And then we we keep working with those w strivings after they've been listed. And that kind of set the stage to further explore this topic. Yeah, that's right. And it eventually led me to the topic of free will, which is a book that I wrote in twenty twenty two, but we don't have to get there yet. Yeah, I mean ⁓ I want to go there for sure. ⁓ we can go into it it it after ⁓ after, but I think ⁓ what's interesting about what you mentioned there is the goals that people list the the what they strive to be. That is in this example sounds like They are intrinsical because I believe you also have a have a framework as to why people have goals in the first place, and that there are four different flavors as to why people have certain goals. Can we maybe get into a few of ⁓ of those and and how they differ from each other? Yeah. ⁓ just a little setup first. ⁓ Yeah. Although the the goals people list might sound intrinsic because they it came out of their own heads, one of the things I discovered pretty early was that a lot of the goals people listed weren't things that they really wanted. You know, it's like dad wants me to want that, you know, or I have to do this because I need the money. And so not all all goals are intrinsically motivated. And ⁓ here's a way to think about that. ⁓ Self-determination theory, which is my main sort of framework, DC and Ryan, ⁓ says that there are four basic types of reasons for doing an activity. There's intrinsic, it's fun, it's interesting, it's challenging, ⁓ you like it. ⁓ there's extrinsic when you're only doing it because you'll get something or avoid something. You'll get the money, you'll get attention, you'll avoid punishment. And so those are two ends of the extreme. You really want to, you really have to. And in between there are two other forms. So introjected motivation is when it's you sort of forcing yourself because you'd feel bad or guilty if you didn't do it. Like, ⁓ God, I didn't make it to the gym this week. I'm going to get up and go tomorrow morning. So y you know, it's it's you you don't really want to, but you don't have to because it's your goal of going to the gym. But you you haven't really taken it all the way in. And then the fourth type is ⁓ identified motivation when you have taken it all the way in. And so in this case, you know, you do it because it's meaningful, ⁓ it's important, even if it's not enjoyable. So you might not want to go do those reps at the gym, but if you have identified motivation, you go willingly. ⁓ you don't have to force yourself. So ⁓ identified motivation is sort of the mature type where you've internalized something you don't enjoy and you've made it your own, even though you don't enjoy it. ⁓ introjection is when it's only partially internalized. It's like you s you're swallowing it and it's stuck halfway down your throat. So you And then external is when it's not at all internalized. You you know that it you're only doing it because you have to. Right. And i are is any one of these better than the other? well the research is pretty clear that intrinsic and identified motivations are kind of better and better, what does that mean? But they're better for your happiness and well being. You know, the more you're pursuing goals that are interesting and enjoyable and meaningful and important, the happier you are, and the more you're guilting yourself and forcing yourself and feeling pushed around by the world, ⁓ the less happy you are. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because how many people think they have a certain goal? I remember being in university and I was surrounded by a lot of other students as well. And especially people studying medicine, some of my my ⁓ housemates, I remember a couple of them and they didn't seem passionate about it whatsoever. They they were just studying medicine because their parents had done so. and and their parents. They they came from a family that studies medicine, that that that were doctors. And I always felt kind of bad for them because it seemed like they wanted it, wanted it, but it's not like it it was kind of more the desire of of their parents rather than their own goal. And somehow that feels Yeah, that doesn't feel great. ⁓ i is i w what what could be what w why is that why why could that be a problem? Well, there's nothing ⁓ wrong with doing what your parents want you to as long as you have come to want it yourself. You know, so ⁓ a person could start off on that medical track n not sure if it's really for them, but dad is pushing and they could learn a bit and then they could realize, ⁓ this is pretty interesting. I can be good at this. And so they that they end up with identified motivation to which is the fully internalized kind. The problem is when they don't get past ⁓ external or interjected motivation. It really is dad's making me and now I'll push myself a little bit, but I really don't really want to or enjoy it. So again, it's not what you do ⁓ so much as why you do it. And so that's a really good test you your listeners can ask themselves. Here's this thing that I'm doing Why am I doing it? You know, do I want to? Is it important? Do I enjoy it? Or am I feeling forced or pressured? And if if if the if it's the latter, that's a good hint, you know, that maybe you should ⁓ think a little bit more about that thing that you're doing. Yeah, I I was thinking about that indeed. Is is it h how how can we identify if we are setting the right goals because sometimes it may seem as if we as if the goals are ours, but maybe they are heavily influenced by some of the people in our area, ⁓ maybe family, maybe, maybe friends. ⁓ and then maybe by stepping out of that scene you you maybe recognize that these weren't your goals after all and that you've been heavily influenced by by surroundings. Which can be good and bad Depending on the situation. Yeah. ⁓ it's hard to tell you know what's real for you and what's not. ⁓ I'm actually writing a book right now on the psychology of dissatisfaction, about learning to interrogate this uneasy feeling of dissatisfaction that you have in order to find out what it's telling you. ⁓ So if it's the case where you're in med school because your parents are pressuring you, you probably feel a little bit of dissatisfaction with that. And you might not understand why, but if you keep asking yourself questions about it, you know, like why am I feeling this way? What's why can't I get my head into this? eventually the realization might surface like an aha moment. There's a connection to creativity that This is just something I've been doing all my life because, you know, ⁓ my dad. It was important to my dad, but it's never been important to me. And once you get to that insight, then it it's not over 'cause you still have to have the courage to have that conversation with dad, you know. But ⁓ at least you're in a better position to tell what you really want. Yeah, it's it's so that's such an interesting Book and I'd love to read it when once it's ⁓ it's out. And it's it hits really close to home for me because prior to becoming a journalist, I used to be a tax lawyer and I went to law school and I was a practitioning ⁓ yeah tax lawyer for three years, worked at a big big firm, and the entire reason why I went to law school in the first place wasn't necessarily born from a strong desire to go to law school. I wanted to go to film school when I was younger and I wanted to do I wanted to make documentaries and I wanted to do something creative. My dad was in advertising. My mom was was a writer. So I was like, I wanna do something creative as well. And then because I didn't really I I figured out it was pretty difficult to get into film school without having ⁓ a good resume already. And I remember being highly unmotivated by a speech I got on one of their open open days. And I was like, ⁓ this may may not be possible for me. So I'm just going to go to law school because it will serve as a good foundation for basically anything that I'll do in the rest of my life. Which there was definitely some truth to that. But ⁓ then when you're in law school, the it's a very The boundaries are very determined. Like the goals are determined for you, right? You have to pass certain classes and ⁓ that becomes a goal. It becomes a very tangible goal, which is to pass the course and to to become a lawyer. But then when I got my degree, it was less tangible in a way. But then I was like, Yeah, I already have the degree, so I might as well work in this field for a couple of years. But I got ⁓ more and more unhappy because I felt there was more for me out there and I wasn't I wasn't aligned. And a big wake up call for me was making a promotion for the first time and people were congratulating me on making this promotion, but I just felt nothing. I it was just like I didn't care whatsoever. And and that's why I decided to ⁓ initiate this career change and and finally do something that aligned more with my own values. So yeah, that is something that is that is extremely recognizable. It's just this feeling of of your life isn't terrible but but there is a sense of unhappiness. And and I think part of that is because I wasn't striving for my own goals. ⁓ does that make sense? Does that sound recognizable? That ⁓ that's a very ⁓ common pattern. And it there's actually nothing wrong with it because you have to try things without really knowing what you want, and you tried law school and then you found out that wasn't it. And so you were willing to make the change towards something closer to ⁓ to to your your your values, your ⁓ what what jazzes you. I have this ⁓ I use the term self concordant goal. Yes. ⁓ A goal is self concordant if it ⁓ expresses your interests and your values, ⁓ and it's non concordant if it's pressured or guilted. So those same four concepts we were talking about. So ⁓ how you feel about the goal ⁓ actually tells you something about the fit between the conscious goal and the deeper you. And so this is the way I've been thinking about it the last decade or so, that we're kind of stuck up in our conscious verbal minds with not a whole lot of direct contact with what's down in there deeper. And so we're a little bit cut off. And we're having to do experiments and make guesses, ⁓ and then ⁓ listen to the answers and and try to figure out what are we telling ourselves. And so, One of the most important things we can do when we have that sense of dissatisfaction is to but notice it. Hmm. Here it is again. And then it to start asking questions, because that's the conscious verbal mind saying, What's going on here? I don't know. ⁓ and you don't know the answer, so you you put it aside. But by ⁓ speaking it aloud, you have broadcast it. your non-conscious mind. And then these sort of ⁓ deeper intuitive processes can get to work on it. And so that's called the incubation period. So this preparation when you ask your dissatisfaction, what is this about? And then there's incubation when nothing happens but th things are happening beneath the surface. And then there's the moment of illumination, the aha moment, which for for you I suppose was deciding, well wait, maybe this film and and media thing it really is the thing. I wasn't ready before, but I'm there now. And then there's ⁓ the last stage is elaboration. Like you've now set a goal. Hopefully it's better than the one you had before, but you gotta go get it. So you you went and got two goals already, big ones, vocational goals. So that's ⁓ congratulations for that. Yeah. And how important is having it a threshold for action when ⁓ creating ⁓ these goals? ⁓ because the re the reason I'm telling this is I remember finally quitting my job because I was getting to a point where I was becoming extremely unhappy. I was ⁓ very, very sad the way that my life was turning out and and I remember I was in the gym one day. And something I just was staring into the abyss and something just snapped inside of me. I was like, next week I'm still going to be here inside this gym, but I will have quit my job by then. Today, ⁓ tomorrow, I'm going back to the office and I'm going to tell them that I'll quit. But the reason I quit was because there was a period, maybe it was the incubation peri period that you mentioned, that that really instilled something in me and really motivated me to make this pretty scary change to enter into an entire new field where I wasn't sure whether I was going to get a job quite soon. But I knew that not having a job sounded better than continuing this job, even if it meant potentially going back to moving in with my parents if I if I wasn't able to find a job in time to to pay my rent, right? So I guess I've I've been thinking about this a lot that A lot of people came up to me. I was invited to the Christmas party still after I quit. And you know how it goes. People have a few drinks and they get a little more more loose. And and many people, literally around ten people, came up to me and they told me, You've really inspired me. ⁓ I'm also unhappy and I'm going to quit my job as well. And I remember being scared, like, ⁓ my God, I don't I I hope I haven't started a revolution that the entire company is going to quit because of me. ⁓ but now, three years later, four years later, I still see on LinkedIn everyone is still working there. And apparently they did feel the need to come up to me to express their unhappiness, but their their threshold for action wasn't met. So paradoxically, you can sometimes be It is better to be in a worse position where you are actually unhappy so that you are actually motivated to take action rather than to sit in this limbo, this spirit like, yeah, it's it's it's it isn't great, but it doesn't suck either. I'm yeah, I'm not willing to risk it because what's the alternative? how do you think about when we decide to to to set these goals and and and to change our life? How how important is it to have enough Enough ⁓ threshold for action there. yeah, that's an interesting question. Maybe the threshold differs for different people. Like ⁓ some one person's more open to experience, another's not. So that first person, their threshold for new action might be lower. but really I think it's it's it's what you do with the dissatisfaction. Yours kept building and building and no distraction made it stop. Theirs is there inside of them, but ⁓ they're comfortable enough or afraid enough or who knows not to ⁓ you know they kind of keep it quashed down a little bit, ⁓ a dull roar. And so, you know, that's that's really their choice. You they if sometimes you have to take a risk if you want the best possible life, and a lot of people aren't willing to do that and you can't really blame them. ⁓ But you can also not necessarily admire them for for some of their choices. Yeah, no, I I agree. it's part of what I find interesting about goal setting and and and motivation in general is that on the one hand, when you have a desire for something, you are longing for something, it means implicitly that you wish that your life was different. Otherwise you you wouldn't have set the goal. A goal implies a certain change, right? So therefore by setting goals, you are implicitly saying that you want your life to be different, that you would love to be doing something else. So in a sense, it it is an expression of insatisfaction. However, achieving goals and and and setting goals Also is very important to us because I interview a lot of entrepreneurs for one of my writing gigs. And one of the things that keeps coming back is that if they sold their company for for life changing amounts of money, all of a sudden they have all the money in the world, they have all the time in the world, but they usually get into this this state of depression almost because they kind of lost their their purpose. So but but th those seem to be at tension. with each other. Wha wh what do you make of that? I do agree that goals ⁓ give us a way to get from point A to point B. ⁓ they're a very special type of human cognition that's an image of the future. Animals can't imagine the future, we can do it. And if the that image of a different future looks good enough, it will motivate us in the present to start taking steps towards it. ⁓ Maybe you can remind me what ⁓ Yeah, no. ⁓ what what it was what I was ⁓ saying is that it ⁓ what seems to be attention is that it seems healthy to have a goal because it also gives us a sense of purpose and a sense of direction. And I speak to a lot of entrepreneurs who after they sold their company felt a sense of depression because they th it was always their goal to sell their company for a life changing amount of money, and now they have achieved it and All of a sudden on paper they should be super happy. They have all the money in the world to spend. They have all the time they need. But now they kind of feel depressed be for for lacking a goal. So I just find that tension interesting that having goals implies a certain dissatisfaction, implies a desire for change. But having zero goals also seems doesn't seem like a very fulfilling life. So I I'm I'm curious about the th yeah, yeah. So I'm curious about Having no goals is boring. Yeah. ⁓ you know, I was ⁓ I'm recently retired, but I was ⁓ pretty successful, I'd say. I'd published like three hundred research articles and each one of them was a new goal that I adopted because I was bored. You know, I I don't like to do nothing. I'd like to be working on something. And so there's this arrival fallacy that you mentioned ⁓ that when you get the goal, you feel flat and dissatisfied. That wasn't my experience. my experience was when I get the goal that felt good. I liked, you know, having that new article out there. ⁓ but then, you know, you can't just Sit on that say, Yeah, I published this article last year. No, you have to t go on to the next thing. And so there's a certain amount of dissatisfaction in that, for sure. Restlessness, let's call it. I'm kind of a restless person, but I think ⁓ you know, that's the price you pay if you want to be a creative person who gets a lot done and and f and f follows different purposes through through your life. Yeah, no, I agree. And it's very recognizable as I I've never published scientific articles, but I do publish a lot of r news articles, ⁓ stories, and of course this this podcast as well. And it's always the goal to make a new one and then you're happy that you did it. It gives you a good feeling. ⁓ you had an interesting discussion, but then you are also always looking what can we do? What can can we do next? So That's I I've had an interesting episode with ⁓ Professor Nikki Harray about ⁓ finite and infinite games where it reminds me of this. So so for some people and for for me like the the goal can be to to keep playing. So so the goal can be to keep doing what you're currently doing if it is something that aligns with ⁓ yeah, w what you value and and and the general direction that it brings you. Wha what about I think when people probably one of the most common goals people have are monetary goals, right? And I think ⁓ many people would say, Okay, I wish I made ⁓ five thousand dollars a month because that would allow me to ⁓ go on on holiday ⁓ twice a year and and pay my mortgage at the same time. And then maybe they reach five thousand dollars and then I think, well, you know, if I make ten thousand, then then I could also buy that watch and maybe I could go on holiday like three times a year, and maybe you could save up for the car, and then they reach 10k. And then it it I it seems to be unending, whereas some people the goal is to build a family and they have children, maybe the goal is to have two children or whatever. But it's not necessarily that the goal then becomes to have 20 children or something. So what is it but about monetary goals that seems to be unable to to fill our desires and that we keep recalibrating and and and keeps us wanting to come back for more? Yeah. Yeah, this is a a really good question and it ⁓ people get on to what we call a hedonic treadmill. Yeah. You know, where They're like the rat on the rat wheel and there's always looking for the next reward and they always want more of the reward. ⁓ money is a funny thing because it's both external and internal. You know, it's it's external because, you know, you have to do things you might not want to to get it, but it's internal because it gives you freedom and power to go on vacation to buy the car that you want. ⁓ Another line of my research outside of goals is on hedonic adaptation. Right. And I think it might be worth talking about that here. W when we studied happiness, my long term collaborator Sonia Leah Bomersky and I, ⁓ this is at the beginning of the positive psychology movement, and at that time people were saying, ⁓ there's happiness can't go up and stay up. It's like Trying to become happier is like trying to become taller, said ⁓ a a genetics researcher. You know, you just can't do it. The the point being that you'll have moods and you'll go up and down, but you're always gonna come back to the same s genetically defined set point. So Sonya and I were trying to figure out, well, is it possible to become happier and stay happier? You know, that seems like a really important question if you're You've got this new discipline of positive psychology that's going to tell people how to how to become happier people. so we tackled that. We spent ⁓ a lot of years on it, and ⁓ we came to the conclusion that ⁓ there is a genetic component. So some people are just naturally a little gloomy, a little worried. Some people are naturally more ebullient and excited, but ⁓ it's not a It's not a line, it's not a point, it's a range. Okay. So ⁓ where my nose is is is this the center of the range and that's ⁓ you know where you're most likely gonna be if n nothing much is going on, good or bad. but what we wanted to find was ways to go up to the top part of your range and stay up there. Mm-hmm. And the the answer was pretty much that when you well we created something called the hedonic adaptation prevention model. And we tested it with a lot of data and I was I'm still kind of amazed how well ⁓ it worked out. I'm I'm looking over at a graph here from this article. I hadn't looked at it in a while. ⁓ and says, Okay, something good has happened in your life. You've just gotten a raise. ⁓ and that leads to ⁓ little good things happening. You know, you don't you can don't have to worry at the end of the month. You can buy a steak sometimes. So these little things happen in your life d as a result of this this larger change. The problem is ⁓ you start to want more. You know, you you take the new level of, you know, things going pretty well now. And you adapt to it. That becomes the new norm. And after you adapt to it, then you want even more. So that's the hedonic treadmill. And the the key to defeating that tendency we found was ⁓ two things. You had to keep varying what you did within that new life change circum ⁓ situation. Like ⁓ if you start exercising finally and you get in better shape. ⁓ You're probably gonna ⁓ lapse back ⁓ and maybe even stop doing the exercise altogether if it's boring, if it becomes boring. So if you run, run a different trail as much as you can. Just just do do it, mix it up, do things differently. And so this variety, having variety in your experiences helps prevent hedonic adaptation because things are always kind of changing. So mix it up is one piece of advice. ⁓ another piece of advice is appreciate what you've got. Feel grateful for it, notice it, savor it. Like, man, I used to kill, I used to go crazy at the end of the month worrying about whether I was going to make my rent. Now I'm just so free, I never have to think about that at all. ⁓ so you you you keep making a conscious experience out of it. that ⁓ that helps to prevent this rising of aspirations, the always wanting more. Yeah. And is it r by writing it down or or how do we do that? Well you could just ⁓ make a point to take a couple of minutes and think about it. ⁓ writing things down is is really good because it makes them a little more real, forces you to ⁓ say exactly what you mean. but the main thing is just ⁓ making kind of a practice of of noticing and savoring what you have. ⁓ maybe a a mindfulness routine, a morning walk, ⁓ anything that slows you down and gets you to be sort of present in this better life that you've created for yourself compared to what you had before, and ⁓ enjoy it instead of automatically looking for the next new high, the the the bigger level. And I wish I could tell this to Elon Musk. ⁓ Like, Elon, isn't a hundred billion enough do you really need to be a trillionaire? Yeah. Yeah, no, i and it it seems also that celebration could could help there to to celebrate miles milestones. Is that a good way to reflect? Absolutely. Celebration is a a form of gratitude. ⁓ Celebration can come around events like holidays or birthdays. But any excuse you have or opportunity you have, I should say, to slow down and appreciate and celebrate and savor is is worth ⁓ develop. Is it understood why he hedon he hedonic ad adaptation, that's it. Exists? Why do we evolve to adapt to our new scenarios? I mean it could It it I can understand that being flexible and and being able to adjust to new scenarios is helpful from an evolutionary point of view when situations get worse, ⁓ but when they get better, it it seems that at least yeah, I mean we weren't necessarily designed to be happy, probably. We were designed to survive. But w w why is it that we adapt to this new baseline of happiness so easily? Yeah. Well, on the negative side, it's ⁓ it seems pretty straightforward that sometimes you're just in a really crappy situation. Your your country is at war, there's food rationing. ⁓ if you just keep feeling, ⁓ it life used to be so much better, this is terrible, ⁓ you're not gonna do so great at adapting to the new negative circumstance. So, you know, it's good to be able to adapt to pain, adapt to to ⁓ negative feelings because they put you back on an even keel where you can ⁓ function. But ⁓ so the the nervous system ⁓ resists being moved too much. It likes to keep things at a certain level. ⁓ kinda like a heartbeat likes to stay in at a certain level and ⁓ a lot of other things in the body. So resist being pushed down or up. ⁓ it comes back to where it started. And so again that's good in the negative case 'cause now you can function, you're s you know, this is the new normal. But it w it's maybe appears bad in the positive case because now things are great and pretty soon it's ho hum again. Right? Isn't that bad? ⁓ and I would say no. ⁓ it it Thinking about my own life, ⁓ when I adapted to the new positive level of having just published that article, ⁓ I I didn't want to just glow. I wasn't going to just glow for a year after that. It was time to get back to the baseline and get on to the next article, or else I was gonna be bored. Yeah. No, it made that that makes sense. And is I think also if you look at it like f ⁓ on an individual level it might not be feel great that hey I I I worked so hard to achieve this goal and now I I have achieved the goal and now I feel like I'm already in my mind I'm already reaching for new goals. I'm I'm moving the goalpost. But if you view it at species level, that is also what drives humanity forward and it is what what drives innovation. If everyone was just happy after they got some food and and was able to survive, we might still be living in the Stone Age. Yeah, that's an excellent excellent point. And ⁓ Yeah, in the book I'm writing there's a chapter on dissatisfaction and social progress, which talks about how collective dissatisfaction in a community or population eventually builds to the point where society itself improves. You know, ⁓ the abolition of slavery in the United States in the nineteenth century, the creation of a forty hour work week. You know, there's a lot of positive ch things that happened in societies in the last several hundred years that ⁓ required a a lot of people to get unhappy enough to push back against the the former status quo. So yeah, I totally agree with what you said. Yeah, no, that's that's i that's very interesting. And ⁓ you mentioned ⁓ free will ⁓ in the beginning of our ⁓ conversation. W how w where does free will come into play when we're talking about goal setting and motivation? Because for me, free will is closely tied to having a sense of agency. So seeing having a goal and then Having the agency to pursue that goal, solving the hurdles that need to be solved to pursue and reach those goals, ⁓ which is an expression of free will. Agency is expressing your your inner ⁓ workings, basically. And I think, at least for me, I get a lot of satisfaction if you can prove to yourself that the the future that you had in mind that you actually start to to realize it. So how how does that relate and and where does free will come into play when we're talking about goal setting and and motivation? Yeah. Well I think goal setting is kind of the essence of free will because it's how we can navigate ourselves through over long stretches of time. It took me eight years to get my PhD. And it was driven by, you know, that the same goal ⁓ over that period and it got me to a life that I I really enjoy and appreciate. ⁓ You know, the topic of whether free will exists or not is a difficult one and I don't think we want to get into that here. but from my point of view, it isn't whether we have it, it's how well we use it. You know what I mean? So like we can't help but choose ⁓ Jean Paul Sartre, the existentialist. From my point of view, it's the question isn't whether free will is real or not, it's how well do we use it. I I Take it as a given that we have free will or at least the ability to ⁓ think up some possibilities for ourselves and pick the one that we like best. And you know, if that's not free will, I don't I don't know what it is. but the the hard part is finding the right choice, the right possibility to pick. And so this gets into this creative process that I mentioned before that. There's a sense of dissatisfaction, you ask yourself, what what do I want? maybe some ideas begin to show up. ⁓ and ideally one of them looks perfect. That's the that's what I've been looking for. That's what I want to do. And so if you are ⁓ setting goals based on that process, to me the question isn't whether we have free will, it's whether we can use it wisely. and to use it wisely means to use our whole minds in making choices. Because our conscious self is a little cut off. And so that requires asking ourselves questions, letting incubation occur, letting aha moments arise, and then making the choice that we want. So ⁓ yeah, free will is a real thing, but we don't know how to use it. We're we're too ⁓ quick to to to make decisions without letting them percolate and incubate long enough. Yeah, and I think it also ties into what we discussed in the beginning about the different kinds of reasons why we set goals in the first place, where if we look at the intrinsic one, that seems to be the most pure form of free will. I think one of the points that that was also from from your work that I wanted to touch on as well. is ⁓ the the upward spiral study, ⁓ the the optimistic turn. ⁓ can you maybe ⁓ elaborate on on on that study and and ⁓ why that is important? Yeah. ⁓ that was a two semester study of ⁓ the freshman year of college of a large student sample. And we ⁓ this was part of the can happiness go up and stay up question. And what we found was that if people, you know, in their first month in college, managed to select self-concordant goals, which are ones that are intrinsic and identified, not external, not interjected, then when they achieved those goals during their first semester, their happiness level went up. if they achieved goals that weren't self-concordant, nothing changed. So in order for your happiness to go up, you have to be doing something you care about. And then the question was, what happens in the second semester? So we had ⁓ set new goals. And it w the same pattern occurred that ⁓ the ones who were able to select a new set of self-concordant goals, their happiness level went up even further at the end of the second semester. So they went up and up. And that was ⁓ a bit of a small group, you know, because it required both picking really wise goals for yourself twice and achieving them twice. But ⁓ it does s ⁓ suggest that again it is possible to to go up and not only stay up, but even go up a little more. That's very interesting. And ⁓ one thing I I was curious about as well is the difference between tangible goals and intangible goals. So for example, a tangible goal that I have is to do a thousand episodes of this show. Well, why do I want it? I have this tangible goal to as a vehicle to serve a few intangible goals, which is to become a better communicator, to become more knowledgeable, to have ⁓ interesting conversations, and to have creative ⁓ freedom regarding my my own media. It ha have You ever looked into the difference between tangible goals and and these intangible goals and whether one is well better than the other or can be more effective than the other? Yeah. ⁓ I haven't used the term tangible versus intangible, but there are very similar ideas of the high level and low level goals. So a low level goal is a plan. That hopefully takes you in the direction of the higher level or longer term goal. So it it's a time thing, it's a complexity thing. a student and I did an experiment once ⁓ asking whether it's better to keep your eye on the prize or your nose to the grindstone. So nose to the grindstone means just don't look up, just do what you have to do. And eye on the prize is You're looking while you're acting, you keep thinking about where you're trying to get in the end. And what we found was that it's better to keep your nose to the grindstone, at least in the the laboratory task that we were working with. ⁓ because if you know, you get out of the flow, you get out of action when you think too much about where you're trying to get. And it also ⁓ there's this idea of goals as wish fulfillment. If you imagine this great life, y say you personally, with all this creative freedom, yeah, that's cool, but maybe you start to think you already have it, you know, and and but you don't. It not to the extent that you would like. So you gotta keep plugging away day by day, I think. But it's okay to celebrate when you take a step, you know, celebrate a little after Maybe this episode is published or or your hundredth episode. A thousand episode is not a is not a very tangible goal. That's a long term goal. a tangible goal would be get the you know the the new ⁓ camera setup and studio lights or wh whatever you need to to to to to make a better product. Right. No, I agree. I mean tangible in the sense that you can put a number on it. So ⁓ people have monetary goals, they want to reach X amount of ⁓ income that they generate or or X amount of episodes in ⁓ the ⁓ for the show. ⁓ but what I mean is that I use that specific number as a vehicle to have To fulfill these other goals that I have of becoming a better communicator, of becoming a better podcaster. To because what what does better mean? I think if you can make it specific, it it seems easier to reach and easier to test whether we are succeeding or not and whether we are getting closer to the goal. And a thousand episodes is by no means a perfect. goal in that regard because still you can do a thousand episodes and never learn and never reflect and ⁓ don't really improve, but at least it's highly unlikely that you wouldn't be better at it compared to episode one if you did something ⁓ a thousand times. So I I was kind of I I guess what I'm curious at is is it ⁓ good to be very specific when it comes to goal setting? Is it is it more likely are we more likely to succeed the more specific we make it? Yeah. That yeah, that's very good question. There was a whole long ⁓ research ⁓ collaboration ⁓ between ⁓ Locke and Latham. They were ⁓ business psychologists, but they were very interested in goal setting. And that was one of the most ⁓ important recommendations that they deduced was goals should be specific. You know, you should know what the target is. shouldn't be vague. It this shouldn't be something you can ⁓ fool yourself. You know, a number is a number. ⁓ get better at this is not a number. so tangible and and concrete is qu is important for sure. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. Right. And I w wanted to w we we we discussed it briefly, but I think it would be interesting to to zoom in a bit more is the the importance of of having goals. And I go back to when when I W when I'm on a a a a tr ⁓ let's say I am able to I think a lot of people are striving to have a lot of money so they can spend all their time on on a tropical island, for example, and don't have to do anything. But after a few weeks of fishing or or or reading books, it it gets it gets a bit boring. Is it Yeah, how important is there any science on on on how important it is to to have goals and to work towards something? I think it varies by people. ⁓ some people are more goal-oriented than others, but I would tend to agree that life is about doing things, it's about encountering challenges, it's about overcoming them, learning things. And so this fantasy of lying on a tropical beach may just be a response to a stressful period at work, but it not a signal that tells you what you should do with most of your life. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing. thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. Yeah. No, that that that that makes sense. Yeah. So Yeah, it it it does that does seem seem I think also if we go back to to ⁓ what we mentioned in the beginning, if you start dissecting that goal, you'd probably quickly discover that. that goal wouldn't it it might be your goal, it might be an intrinsic goal, but it wouldn't be a goal that would be very ⁓ fulfilling ⁓ in the in the long ⁓ long run. You might think it would be fun and you know I mean it might see the thing is those reasons for motivation are all about doing stuff, reasons to do something. But if you just lie on a beach you're not even doing anything. So you You can't even ask what's your motivation? Are you intrinsically motivated to be lying on that beach? Well, the sun feels good and the breeze, but you're not doing anything. So I personally think it's really important to be doing stuff ⁓ and hopefully stuff that's meaningful to you. Yeah. And f finally, how important is ⁓ motivation when ⁓ trying to reach our goals? Because There are a few flavors in my opinion when it comes to achieving our goals. The first is we have a goal that we know we want to reach, but we aren't always motivated to reach it. So it takes energy to go after it. Then there are goals that we usually in the beginning of pursuing a new goal that we feel highly motivated. So it still takes energy to go after the goal, but We do have to work for it a little bit, but we are motivated so the work feels good. And then finally, I think there's some it's obsession. So that's the strongest driver. And then it actually takes energy not to pursue the goal. But but obsession and motivation, those are really out of your control. You cannot decide what you are obsessed about. At least it feels That's how it feels like to me. So in the end, discipline seems the most important one. has there been any any research done on this and the the differences between these drivers? Yeah. Yeah, so psychologist named Robert Valarand has studied ⁓ passion ⁓ extensively and he makes a distinction between a harmonious passion where the passion is in balance with the rest of your life, and obsessive passion where you can't not do it. You know, it kind of takes over your life. And people with an obsessive passion can get a lot done, but ⁓ they're not as happy as somebody with a harmonious passion ⁓ would be, because it's too all consuming. And the the thing that I find interesting about obsessive passion is it takes intrinsic motivation. I like to do it, and it pushes it to an extreme. So usually I like to do it. It's fun, is a good motivator. but when you go to the extreme, then it becomes an addiction, you know? And so you don't want to get that far. You ⁓ you need to keep keep things in balance. Yeah. And and also, yeah, I I mean it's addiction is is never good, even if it's to something that is healthy in the beginning. I mean, if you're like addicted to going to the gym or working out, you'll very likely to to get in injured ⁓ very soon. ⁓ but it's also it feels like it's out of your control. You can't like I'm going to be obsessed by ⁓ reading books or something. You you have to That that that comes from the inside, I feel like. Sure you can kind of steer it and and you can focus your intention, but I do feel like motivation and ⁓ obsession both are less controllable than ⁓ discipline is. So it also seems like an unreliable ⁓ source and fuel to reach those goals. Yeah. Yeah. Well ob obsession is Something that it's hard to control just like an addiction is. But people do overcome addictions, and the way they do it is when the dissatisfaction about h how they're living grows to the point where the addiction feels starts to feel less important and doing other things starts to feel more important. So ⁓ yeah, an addiction is is hard to get over, an obsession, passion. But the thing that helps is when you ⁓ r recognize that ⁓ it's not working for you. ⁓ you see people who aren't who don't have this addiction that you have and they seem to be doing a lot better than you. And so that can help you reorient yourself. Sometimes therapy is is is a good idea to have somebody talk with you about the roots of this obsession. And that can help you understand why it's there and and what to do about it. Yeah. And ⁓ f finally, before ⁓ before we ⁓ wrap it up ⁓ today, ⁓ you mentioned you're you're writing a new new book. ⁓ is that something ⁓ that is ⁓ in the works at the moment? Is that ⁓ yeah going to be published? is there a date? Yeah, I have a contract with ⁓ Elsevier to publish the book. It's in their it's in their ⁓ series called The Psychology of Everyday Life. And so my version is the psychology of dissatisfaction. ⁓ and I've mostly finished a draft of it, but I've put it aside for now. ⁓ it won't be coming out probably until late twenty twenty seven. So it's not something your readers could look for. not yet. Not yet. Okay. They have to be a little patient. But you have published many other books in the past. What what is a good place for people listening if they wanna ⁓ see more of your work and perhaps order ⁓ the books you wrote? Yeah. ⁓ my book Freely Determined What the New Psychology of the Self teaches us about how to live, ⁓ was published ⁓ in twenty twenty two. ⁓ by basic books. And it was designed to be a crossover book. It not ⁓ an academic book. It's written for the general public. And it has most of what we've been talking about today in it. If not all of it. And a lot more. So I would say that's the place to go if readers would like to or listeners would like to ⁓ find out more. That's perfect. Is there anything ⁓ that you'd like to mention or or that we haven't touched on before ⁓ we ⁓ we end our session today. Honestly, nothing really occurs to me. We've hit a lot of bases. And ⁓ I guess I would just tell people, ⁓ keep listening to yourself. ⁓ keep uncovering what's in there that gives you hints about what you really want and then go after it. That's a beautiful, beautiful words to end it. Kenan, thank you so much for for coming on the show. I really appreciate you. I'll make sure to put your ⁓ book and and and other ⁓ books in the in the show notes. And ⁓ yeah, I'd love to ⁓ to stay in touch and ⁓ yeah, even though I have to ⁓ to be a little patient to ⁓ stay up to date on ⁓ on when your next ⁓ book is coming out. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. I enjoy the conversation.