Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / Shifting Pharmacy Culture: A Conversation with Jason Kiser | Cardinal Health™ CounterTalk™ Podcast

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Shifting Pharmacy Culture: A Conversation with Jason Kiser | Cardinal Health™ CounterTalk™ Podcast · Pharmacy Podcast Network

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Speaker 3: Talk podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you listen
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Speaker 3: to your favorite podcasts. Hello everyone, and welcome back to
1:12
Speaker 3: the Cardinal Health counter Talk podcast. I'm your host Jason Chlory,
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Speaker 3: and today we have a really interesting show focus on building, fostering,
1:18
Speaker 3: and even shifting your team culture for your pharmacy staff.
1:21
Speaker 3: To do that, we will talk to pharmacist Jason Kaiser,
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Speaker 3: owner of Kaiser Pharmacy in Union City, Tennessee, to give
1:28
Speaker 3: us a bit of a walkthrough on what he did
1:30
Speaker 3: within his team to evolve that culture.
1:31
Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, Jason.
1:33
Speaker 5: Hey, thanks for having me so how you Ben?
1:36
Speaker 4: Just saw you at RBC.
1:39
Speaker 3: I know we work together from a stage perspective before.
1:42
Speaker 4: How'd you enjoy RBC in Denver this year?
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Speaker 5: I went well.
1:46
Speaker 6: I was surprised that I was able to speak and
1:50
Speaker 6: not funnel all over myself too, terribly bad. But I
1:53
Speaker 6: also enjoyed all the conversations with pharmacist afterwards too.
1:57
Speaker 5: That was a lot of fun. We're seeing Derek Jeter
1:59
Speaker 5: and that was nice also.
2:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always a good time to see Derek Cheeter.
2:03
Speaker 3: That was really fun meeting him. But you know, one
2:06
Speaker 3: of the things that you got to talk about from
2:08
Speaker 3: a stage perspective you were one of our panelists, was
2:11
Speaker 3: really talking about shifting the mindset in your team culture
2:15
Speaker 3: and some other great things that you do within your pharmacy.
2:17
Speaker 3: But before we get into that, tell us about your
2:19
Speaker 3: journey into the pharmacy's profession, specifically, why you chose to
2:23
Speaker 3: become an independent pharmacy.
2:25
Speaker 4: Where did your journey begin?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I had a family of entrepreneurs. I guess.
2:30
Speaker 6: My dad was a car dealer when I was young,
2:33
Speaker 6: and my grandfather had all sorts of entrepreneurial pursuits and efforts,
2:38
Speaker 6: and just learned that owning a business could be rewarding
2:42
Speaker 6: a lot of fun.
2:44
Speaker 5: And I didn't realize how taxing it could be. Also,
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Speaker 5: But I grew up in a small town, Union Cities
2:51
Speaker 5: where I grew up, and.
2:54
Speaker 6: I liked the medical side, but didn't like the doctor
2:58
Speaker 6: inside so much. Didn't But I was sick as a
3:01
Speaker 6: kid a ton, and so I was in the pharmacy.
3:04
Speaker 5: A lot, okay, And that kind of made me think
3:09
Speaker 5: in that way, you know, I thought I could do this.
3:11
Speaker 6: And so also it helps that the guidance counselor showed
3:14
Speaker 6: us like top salaries out of school and and I
3:18
Speaker 6: was like, you know what, I might could get a boat,
3:21
Speaker 6: which I still haven't. I've gone fishing twice since I
3:25
Speaker 6: graduated thirty years ago.
3:27
Speaker 4: You know, it's well, do you have do you? Did
3:29
Speaker 4: you get a boat?
3:30
Speaker 5: I never did. Nod started working and it never happened.
3:35
Speaker 6: But anyway, I worked for Kroger Pharmacy in Nashville out
3:40
Speaker 6: of school and quickly became adept at turning stores around.
3:47
Speaker 5: That was one of my specialties.
3:48
Speaker 6: They put me in a trouble spot and understaffed, bad culture,
3:53
Speaker 6: and I kind of made a living out of I
3:55
Speaker 6: made a name for myself doing that. And then not
3:57
Speaker 6: long after that, I was district manager and had some
3:59
Speaker 6: o the roles in the corporate office. And there was
4:03
Speaker 6: a point where a pretty innovative pharmacist in Murphysborough hired.
4:08
Speaker 5: Me away from Kroger. And that's where I.
4:11
Speaker 6: Learned that independent pharmacy, as opposed to what I was
4:14
Speaker 6: told in school, could be a viable business. I was
4:18
Speaker 6: kind of I was thought in the late nineties, they
4:21
Speaker 6: were telling everybody the chains, he'd ruined it, insurance has
4:24
Speaker 6: ruined it, You're not gonna be able to own your own,
4:27
Speaker 6: and I just kind of they kind of brainwashed me
4:29
Speaker 6: a little.
4:30
Speaker 5: Bit on that.
4:30
Speaker 3: Wow, it's kind of a that's definitely a negative mindset
4:33
Speaker 3: kind of coming out of school.
4:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:35
Speaker 6: So I went the chain route, which I'm glad I did.
4:38
Speaker 6: I learned a lot on somebody else's dime. I also
4:41
Speaker 6: learned a lot of lessons and I learned some things
4:44
Speaker 6: what not to do, so that was great. And then
4:47
Speaker 6: I went to work for this innovative pharmacist and that's
4:49
Speaker 6: where he taught me innovation and being able to be
4:53
Speaker 6: an agile as a small business owner. I know, you
4:57
Speaker 6: if you've worked for a corporation before, you know some
5:00
Speaker 6: times buying a staple takes three committee meetings and five emails,
5:05
Speaker 6: and that doesn't happen in independent pharmacy world. You know, the
5:09
Speaker 6: buck stops with me, and I enjoy that part being
5:13
Speaker 6: able to be that way in business. So that's where
5:16
Speaker 6: I got started. I finally moved back after I had
5:18
Speaker 6: been gone for over a decade since I graduated high school.
5:22
Speaker 6: My parents actually moved away from Union City, so I
5:24
Speaker 6: didn't really have family ties right at that moment, so
5:27
Speaker 6: I moved back.
5:28
Speaker 5: All people knew me was the quarterback.
5:31
Speaker 6: And you know, the kid, and so there were some
5:34
Speaker 6: obstacles just to open him because they thought, this, what's
5:37
Speaker 6: this little kid doing.
5:37
Speaker 5: We had seven pharmacies at the.
5:39
Speaker 6: Time, and we opened from scratch, which was another unique
5:43
Speaker 6: thing at the time. You didn't typically buy some older
5:46
Speaker 6: man's pharmacy and or go to work for someone and
5:49
Speaker 6: then they ultimately handed over to you. We started from scratch,
5:52
Speaker 6: so that was scary, put my house up for collateral
5:56
Speaker 6: and all that kind of stuff.
5:57
Speaker 5: Filled nineteen prescriptions the first day, but ultimately we were.
6:01
Speaker 6: Super blessed and grew and had a really successful run
6:08
Speaker 6: despite the challenges that we've all faced along the way,
6:11
Speaker 6: especially the last ten years.
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Speaker 4: Well that's quite the journey.
6:14
Speaker 3: I mean, it seems like you really were put through
6:16
Speaker 3: the ringer, through every facet of the independent pharmacy business
6:19
Speaker 3: to really bring you where you are today. And I
6:22
Speaker 3: kind of want to go back to you know, you
6:23
Speaker 3: mentioned growing up in Union City, you were a sick kid,
6:26
Speaker 3: you were in and out of pharmacies a lot. But
6:29
Speaker 3: then going back and between your history in Union City
6:34
Speaker 3: and building that pharmacy from scratch, you said you filled
6:37
Speaker 3: nineteen prescriptions the first day. From then to now, how
6:42
Speaker 3: has how have your services evolved over time? What have
6:46
Speaker 3: you seen in your community really trying to meet the
6:48
Speaker 3: needs of your patients, And what do you think makes
6:52
Speaker 3: your pharmacy so different than all those ones that were
6:54
Speaker 3: surrounding you the day that you open the doors.
6:58
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, first of all, had a lot of doubters
7:01
Speaker 6: and that that motivates me.
7:02
Speaker 5: I'm a competitor.
7:03
Speaker 6: I like to compete and so, but there were things
7:06
Speaker 6: like at the time, compounding seemed super wacky to some people,
7:12
Speaker 6: you know, even though it was in the Old Testament,
7:14
Speaker 6: you know, And that's how pharmacy pretty much started. Compounding
7:19
Speaker 6: was this, Uh was pretty innovative at the time. We
7:25
Speaker 6: did that because we wanted to do something we enjoyed doing,
7:27
Speaker 6: and we did enjoy.
7:28
Speaker 5: Doing that that that went well.
7:30
Speaker 6: We you know, from primarily it was we just loved
7:36
Speaker 6: people like and I was surprised how many people that
7:39
Speaker 6: I'd forgotten about from high school that walked in the.
7:42
Speaker 5: Door and said, Kayser, I'm bringing my business to you,
7:46
Speaker 5: and uh.
7:47
Speaker 6: But then ultimately doing just knowing the chain playbook, I
7:53
Speaker 6: just went in the opposite direction.
7:56
Speaker 5: I decided I was.
7:57
Speaker 6: Going to do things that they would not or could
7:59
Speaker 6: not do, and that might be getting out at too
8:03
Speaker 6: in the morning, like most independence are famous for, and change,
8:06
Speaker 6: you know, creating a customer for life scenario by helping
8:09
Speaker 6: someone in need. But just some of the services beyond that,
8:13
Speaker 6: you know, we were probably the first ones around here
8:17
Speaker 6: doing vaccinations when that you know, got started. I mean,
8:20
Speaker 6: we did a lot of clinical consulting and we tried
8:26
Speaker 6: to you know, I think when mtms first started, we
8:28
Speaker 6: were one of the top MTM pharmacies in the state.
8:34
Speaker 6: That that whole thing has changed a lot since it began,
8:37
Speaker 6: but we were always been first at the table, you know,
8:40
Speaker 6: trying to trying new things, seeing what works, and being
8:43
Speaker 6: willing to take risks, especially if it involves increasing efficiency,
8:49
Speaker 6: customer experience, and outcomes.
8:52
Speaker 3: Is there a service outside of vaccinations that you think
8:57
Speaker 3: have made the biggest impact in your community specifically?
9:02
Speaker 6: I think that may be the biggest story, may be
9:06
Speaker 6: a more recent story, and that is over time. It
9:10
Speaker 6: took a while, but you know, all the medical personnel
9:15
Speaker 6: around here, we're right across from the hospital and some
9:17
Speaker 6: doctors clinics, but over the years we've earned all their
9:21
Speaker 6: trust and so we're creating solutions constantly for people and
9:27
Speaker 6: the doctors rely on us, which is you know something
9:31
Speaker 6: This is kind of a not a knock on pharmacy education,
9:33
Speaker 6: but you're not You're kind of taught that if you
9:36
Speaker 6: don't go all the way clinical and get a million
9:40
Speaker 6: initials after your name, that you're selling out or settling
9:46
Speaker 6: for a lower tiered pharmacy career, and I found it
9:49
Speaker 6: to be the opposite. I feel like I have more
9:51
Speaker 6: respect because I'm able to provide solutions for doctors and
9:55
Speaker 6: patients than I ever would otherwise.
9:57
Speaker 5: And I think that's something that goes unnoticed a lot
10:01
Speaker 5: of times in community.
10:02
Speaker 6: Pharmacy, especially if we're known, as I said on stage,
10:07
Speaker 6: just as a place to get your peels.
10:09
Speaker 5: You're just a nice place to get your pells. I
10:12
Speaker 5: think there's not a huge future in that.
10:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a great call out just because
10:18
Speaker 3: you know, in talking to a bunch of pharmacists over
10:20
Speaker 3: the years, the ones that really do take the time
10:23
Speaker 3: to connect with their hometown physicians, hospitals, healthcare providers outside
10:30
Speaker 3: of the pharmacy, you do benefit from that quite a bit.
10:33
Speaker 4: And I'm not sure if I'm not sure if.
10:35
Speaker 3: It's location base where people have a little bit of
10:38
Speaker 3: a struggle to do that sort of connection, or going
10:41
Speaker 3: out of their way to make that connection, but it
10:42
Speaker 3: can make a big difference in your pharmacy.
10:45
Speaker 4: I know you spoke a little.
10:45
Speaker 3: Bit about that at RBC twenty twenty five in Denver,
10:49
Speaker 3: but also you really spoke to attendees on your approach
10:53
Speaker 3: to enhancing culture among your pharmacy staff. And you told
10:58
Speaker 3: you told us just before you were kind of a
11:00
Speaker 3: fixer going into some other pharmacies back in the day
11:03
Speaker 3: where you know, they needed someone to shift the mindset,
11:06
Speaker 3: build a culture, what to do, what not to do?
11:09
Speaker 3: So why has culture become such a key focus area
11:13
Speaker 3: for you, both in the past and now for your team.
11:17
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would say that I've kind of come full
11:20
Speaker 6: circle because I was there was a point where I
11:22
Speaker 6: was kind of beaten down by the model. You know,
11:27
Speaker 6: I wouldn't admit that to my staff, but I was.
11:29
Speaker 6: I was beaten down by the gloom and doom pressure
11:33
Speaker 6: from PBMs, the focus on volume and efficiency to the
11:39
Speaker 6: point where the profits aren't there, so you strip your
11:42
Speaker 6: help out from under you if you're not careful, and
11:45
Speaker 6: so all of those kind of made me a little jaded.
11:47
Speaker 6: And then I got to this point where, you know,
11:49
Speaker 6: I say this all the time. When I first opened
11:51
Speaker 6: the store, I was mediating interpersonal conflict on a daily basis.
11:58
Speaker 6: I was trying to fix things, and and then I
12:01
Speaker 6: got to the point to where I got like my dad,
12:03
Speaker 6: and that is, if nobody's bleeding.
12:05
Speaker 5: I don't want to hear about it.
12:06
Speaker 6: And so I got and then I ultimately got to
12:12
Speaker 6: a CEO role. During COVID, I built myself an office.
12:16
Speaker 6: I never really had a real office where I could
12:18
Speaker 6: work on the.
12:18
Speaker 5: Business instead of in the business.
12:20
Speaker 6: And once I was able to start working on the business,
12:24
Speaker 6: I realized our culture could use a bump. And I
12:28
Speaker 6: think everybody that works in pharmacy wishes they had a
12:32
Speaker 6: good culture, but they also think they can't do anything
12:37
Speaker 6: about it.
12:38
Speaker 5: It's just the nature of the beast.
12:40
Speaker 6: And you just got to hope that you've got eagle
12:43
Speaker 6: scouts that work their tails off and that don't get
12:47
Speaker 6: in line with you without causing a lot of drama.
12:49
Speaker 4: Well, well I got to go back.
12:51
Speaker 3: So besides the drama that you experience, and if we
12:55
Speaker 3: kind of fast forward to your own team, because you
12:57
Speaker 3: said you sat in your office and now you were
12:59
Speaker 3: able to to maybe realize that your team culture needed
13:04
Speaker 3: a bit of a boost.
13:05
Speaker 4: Can you give us just one or two examples.
13:08
Speaker 3: Of what those those little light bulbs that went off,
13:13
Speaker 3: or those those signs that you saw within your team
13:16
Speaker 3: that made you believe that.
13:18
Speaker 4: Yeah.
13:19
Speaker 6: The first thing was I realized I could work on it.
13:23
Speaker 6: And I got to give credit to some friends of
13:25
Speaker 6: mine that I that are mentors that I that I.
13:27
Speaker 5: Work with from time to time.
13:29
Speaker 6: One of them we were all complaining, like we always
13:31
Speaker 6: complained that these meetings, said you know, if it's such
13:36
Speaker 6: a problem, why don't we work on it? And that
13:39
Speaker 6: was my light bulb moment because I thought, you know,
13:41
Speaker 6: every challenge that comes through pharmacy, I'm able to attack, assess, diagnose,
13:47
Speaker 6: and fix and come up with solutions for it. But
13:49
Speaker 6: I've never really worked on culture. The second thing I
13:53
Speaker 6: realized was I quit listening to my people. You know,
13:58
Speaker 6: I just you come to the principal office, you know,
14:01
Speaker 6: if you get out of line. And I realized I
14:03
Speaker 6: had some really smart people that I wasn't seeing top
14:08
Speaker 6: performance out of, but I knew they had the potential,
14:10
Speaker 6: and I was puzzled at what was I wanted to
14:14
Speaker 6: get to the root of.
14:14
Speaker 5: It, like what's going on? So one of the first.
14:17
Speaker 6: Things I did was I decided that a fellow pharmacist,
14:22
Speaker 6: a female, and I would start taking employees to lunch
14:27
Speaker 6: paid lunch.
14:28
Speaker 5: Don't clock out, I'm taking you to lunch for an hour.
14:31
Speaker 6: And that began our what our journey into listening, which I'm,
14:36
Speaker 6: you know, naturally not the greatest listener.
14:39
Speaker 5: This forced me to be a good listener.
14:42
Speaker 6: So we had stage questions that we asked, you know,
14:45
Speaker 6: like tell us about your good days and your bad days,
14:47
Speaker 6: and what you'd enjoy doing, what you'd rather not do.
14:50
Speaker 6: And what we realized was we were frustrating everybody by
14:54
Speaker 6: trying to put all square pegs in round holes, and
14:58
Speaker 6: we wanted to realize We also realized certain people have
15:01
Speaker 6: greater strengths and weaknesses, and it's okay for them to
15:04
Speaker 6: do the things they're good at and hope to work
15:06
Speaker 6: on the weaknesses instead of making everybody do the same
15:09
Speaker 6: thing all the time.
15:10
Speaker 5: So that that changed, and then we.
15:12
Speaker 6: Grew those one on one meetings to every quarter meetings
15:17
Speaker 6: where we sit down for fifteen minutes and we give
15:20
Speaker 6: them individual goals. We set things out like you need
15:22
Speaker 6: to get better at this, and we're going to talk about.
15:25
Speaker 5: This a quarter from now. Every quarter.
15:28
Speaker 6: And I realized I'd always wanted to pull our certified
15:32
Speaker 6: technicians up into a greater role, which they were doing
15:35
Speaker 6: all the typing and calling pharmacies and doctors and.
15:37
Speaker 5: Doing all they could, but I thought they could do more.
15:40
Speaker 5: I just was reluctant for some reason.
15:43
Speaker 6: And through all this listening, I realized they wanted more,
15:47
Speaker 6: They wanted a great responsibility, they wanted more task And
15:50
Speaker 6: some of those that we assigned to tasks are doing
15:54
Speaker 6: them better than the pharmacists, you know, certainly better than
15:57
Speaker 6: me on things, and so they are enjoying their job,
16:02
Speaker 6: I think a lot better. We're all rowing in the
16:04
Speaker 6: same direction. And we also got to the point where
16:07
Speaker 6: we said, we can't afford you not to be on board. Look,
16:10
Speaker 6: the last several years have been tough, and we don't
16:13
Speaker 6: have the money to sit around and just let somebody
16:17
Speaker 6: not row in the same direction as us.
16:20
Speaker 3: So when you got when you started having these conversations,
16:23
Speaker 3: this is a great a great mindset, by the way,
16:27
Speaker 3: I think it's a great thing to implement, because I
16:29
Speaker 3: think every culture needs goals, especially a business culture, especially pharmacy.
16:33
Speaker 3: When you're you know, you're fighting for each penny every
16:36
Speaker 3: single day. Everybody within your pharmacy team needs goals in
16:39
Speaker 3: order to help keep evolving that business and to stay
16:42
Speaker 3: in business and help those those patients. Right when when
16:46
Speaker 3: you started having these conversations, did did your pharmacist or
16:51
Speaker 3: your text. Did they know what was happening as you
16:54
Speaker 3: were sitting there, like what's going on?
16:55
Speaker 4: Were they a little with a little bit? Sure? Yeah, okay, we.
16:59
Speaker 5: Probably shocked that I'll wanted to take them to lunch.
17:02
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, because you had mentioned you weren't that
17:05
Speaker 3: into the whole listening aspect of it and connecting with them,
17:08
Speaker 3: so all of a sudden, why does this guy want
17:10
Speaker 3: to take me to lunch?
17:11
Speaker 4: Is he about to let me go? Like? What's happening
17:13
Speaker 4: right now?
17:13
Speaker 5: That was probably a little bit of it.
17:15
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the more we did it, the more I
17:18
Speaker 6: enjoyed it.
17:19
Speaker 5: And we need to obviously get back to doing that.
17:22
Speaker 6: We've kind of gone one hundred miles an hour in
17:25
Speaker 6: some of these directions that we've started, and I need
17:27
Speaker 6: to get back to taking people at lunch again, which
17:30
Speaker 6: we do, but we're getting into busy season and stuff.
17:34
Speaker 5: But it's been it's really been telling.
17:38
Speaker 6: I mean, we had one employee that I just couldn't
17:42
Speaker 6: figure out why they weren't happy and why they weren't
17:44
Speaker 6: performing well.
17:46
Speaker 5: And I give this as an example.
17:48
Speaker 6: I thought it was going to be you know, I'm
17:51
Speaker 6: sick of somebody that works with us, or I'm having
17:53
Speaker 6: a personal issue.
17:54
Speaker 5: Or I didn't know what it was. It turns out
17:58
Speaker 5: the person was bored and wow, okay, and.
18:03
Speaker 6: The lady was brilliant, you know, really smart and capable,
18:06
Speaker 6: but just wasn't performing consistently. And then once we started
18:12
Speaker 6: giving them more to do and more.
18:14
Speaker 5: To learn and take on, she thrived.
18:17
Speaker 6: It was a complete turnaround. But it all became apparent
18:20
Speaker 6: because of listening.
18:22
Speaker 3: So what other steps besides the is there anything else
18:26
Speaker 3: that you did? So after you you had the lunches
18:28
Speaker 3: with them and you started giving them goals, you know
18:31
Speaker 3: what else? What other steps did you take to begin
18:33
Speaker 3: evolving that pharmacy culture? Was there anything else coming off
18:36
Speaker 3: of those conversations and adding those goals that really helped you.
18:40
Speaker 6: Yeah, we've added more team goals. Of course gross profit
18:44
Speaker 6: it would be a huge one, but we've started. We
18:48
Speaker 6: changed our bonus structure was no longer like a just
18:50
Speaker 6: a you know, arbitrary Christmas or an obligatory Christmas bonus.
18:56
Speaker 5: It was more we're going to set goals. If we
18:58
Speaker 5: made them, you get it.
19:00
Speaker 6: If you exceed it your individual goals, you get a
19:02
Speaker 6: multiplier on top of it.
19:04
Speaker 5: And it's all rolling in the same direction kind of thing.
19:07
Speaker 6: The other thing is we changed our business model to
19:11
Speaker 6: the point where we delayed our opening of our lobby
19:14
Speaker 6: and our.
19:15
Speaker 5: Phones by an hour. We used to be eight to six,
19:18
Speaker 5: we're nine to six.
19:20
Speaker 6: The drive through opens at eight, and then on top
19:22
Speaker 6: of that, we started bringing a pharmacist in at seven.
19:25
Speaker 5: So from seven to.
19:26
Speaker 6: Nine we get a ton of work done. I mean,
19:29
Speaker 6: we may feel a few hundred prescriptions before the phones
19:32
Speaker 6: ever start ringing wow. And that allows pharmacists to be
19:37
Speaker 6: where the model, my model's designed for a pharmacist to
19:40
Speaker 6: be accessible, available, can talk to a patient twenty minutes
19:45
Speaker 6: and us not missive, you know, And so that's been
19:49
Speaker 6: really helpful. But it's also when we pull those technicians
19:52
Speaker 6: up into what we call secondary roles, beyond their primary roles,
19:58
Speaker 6: it allows them more time to do those things that
20:01
Speaker 6: help make us more efficient, make us more money, and
20:04
Speaker 6: make everybody happier too.
20:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of interesting when you have personal goals
20:09
Speaker 3: and you and your team goals, and you have different
20:12
Speaker 3: you know, compensation for that, whether it be something monetary
20:16
Speaker 3: or whether it be something professionally, and I think those
20:19
Speaker 3: are those are great goals to both kind of balance
20:22
Speaker 3: out your team.
20:23
Speaker 4: How do you believe this culture.
20:24
Speaker 3: Shift has changed the trajectory of your pharmacy business and
20:27
Speaker 3: your teams of ability to care for patients overall?
20:33
Speaker 6: Well, you know, we all want to and we all
20:36
Speaker 6: do those things, but when you're tripping over obstacles to
20:40
Speaker 6: get to that point, you sometimes have negative experiences and
20:43
Speaker 6: so we're not efficient. For example, we could have nine
20:46
Speaker 6: cars in the drive through and somebody's getting something's getting
20:49
Speaker 6: messed up, or you know, so all of those things.
20:53
Speaker 6: It takes not just want to, You've got to work
20:56
Speaker 6: on your processes and efficiency also while also motivate and setting.
21:01
Speaker 5: Goals out to get people to where you want them
21:03
Speaker 5: to go.
21:04
Speaker 6: And the other part was for those that did not
21:10
Speaker 6: get on board, that chose to be almost combative or
21:15
Speaker 6: just not have the right attitude. We made the decision
21:18
Speaker 6: we don't want you work in here anymore. And that's
21:21
Speaker 6: hard for pharmacists to do for sure, and so but
21:25
Speaker 6: we as. One of the things I wanted to get
21:28
Speaker 6: that helped the buy in the most is I have
21:30
Speaker 6: five pharmacists, we were all in agreement on board. They
21:36
Speaker 6: bought in first, and I knew that ultimately, as we're
21:39
Speaker 6: operating somewhat as a unified manager, that if we had
21:44
Speaker 6: somebody that wasn't on board, that wasn't going to work either.
21:46
Speaker 6: And so they are helping trickle down that culture and
21:52
Speaker 6: sprinkle it around, so to speak.
21:54
Speaker 3: That's yeah, that's really interesting because I think that really
21:57
Speaker 3: leads me into my next question, which is what's an
22:01
Speaker 3: example of how your staff evolved to create the new culture?
22:05
Speaker 3: But even even to more the point, what is when
22:09
Speaker 3: when you're when you're implementing all this and then all
22:11
Speaker 3: of a sudden you're watching your team work together and
22:14
Speaker 3: you're watching things happen, and you're watching the culture evolve.
22:17
Speaker 3: What was the moment what was the example that kind
22:21
Speaker 3: of clued you into Wow, I think this was working.
22:24
Speaker 4: Do you remember what that aha moment was?
22:26
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're a couple.
22:29
Speaker 6: But the one that stands out the most is in Tennessee,
22:31
Speaker 6: we worked really hard legislatively to change the PBM laws
22:37
Speaker 6: and reforms, and we were doing a very.
22:42
Speaker 5: Wonky process of doing mac appeals.
22:45
Speaker 6: You know, you know, there've always been a MAC appeal process,
22:48
Speaker 6: but nobody ever did them because they were one hundred
22:50
Speaker 6: percent denied in the state now they have to respond
22:55
Speaker 6: to these things. So I was doing them with a
22:57
Speaker 6: master spreadsheet and all these things, that really difficult stuff.
23:02
Speaker 6: And uh, we ask if we tried a couple of
23:06
Speaker 6: people out doing it in my stead, because if I
23:09
Speaker 6: went on vacation, somebody had to do it, things like that.
23:12
Speaker 6: And one of our technicians just really bright girl. She
23:17
Speaker 6: we asked her to do it, and I was reluctant
23:18
Speaker 6: because I'm like, she's gonna hate this. I mean, it's
23:21
Speaker 6: you know, it's a terrible process. And then also I
23:24
Speaker 6: worried about the rest of the technician staff being willing
23:27
Speaker 6: to let her, you know, step away from her other
23:30
Speaker 6: roles several hours a week to do this.
23:33
Speaker 5: You know, what was that going to do. Come to
23:36
Speaker 5: find out, she picked it up very quick.
23:38
Speaker 6: She's better at it than I am, she enjoys doing it.
23:43
Speaker 4: She enjoys doing it. Wow.
23:44
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So that's all three of those are surprises,
23:47
Speaker 6: you know, and well better than me, it's.
23:49
Speaker 5: Not such a surprise.
23:50
Speaker 6: But but then the the staff didn't miss a beat. Now,
23:55
Speaker 6: occasionally we're like, hey, we need you up here, and
23:58
Speaker 6: you know, we're short staffed some days or but as
24:01
Speaker 6: we can continue to improve all this, those moments are
24:04
Speaker 6: fewer and far between because we're running like a smooth
24:09
Speaker 6: running machine.
24:10
Speaker 4: No, that's that's that's cool to hear it.
24:12
Speaker 3: I just wanted to pinpoint like that, that moment that
24:16
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, okay, we we've had these challenges,
24:19
Speaker 3: but instead of getting down on everything, we all work
24:22
Speaker 3: together to create this this solution, and you found someone that, actually,
24:27
Speaker 3: like you said, might be a little better at it
24:28
Speaker 3: than you are.
24:30
Speaker 6: I tell you what, I also know that it wasn't
24:32
Speaker 6: just me that wanted everybody on board, you know, okay,
24:36
Speaker 6: and you know the staff wanted everybody to be on
24:40
Speaker 6: board too, And when when there's one person not on board,
24:43
Speaker 6: you know they don't like it either, just like I
24:46
Speaker 6: don't like it. And so you know, that's even more
24:49
Speaker 6: you know, assurance that we're doing things right.
24:52
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, But that brings me to the flip side
24:54
Speaker 3: of it. You know, were there any hurdles you face
24:56
Speaker 3: and shifting the mindsets or processes or or people that
25:00
Speaker 3: maybe you weren't so quite on board with this new
25:02
Speaker 3: mindset because you know, obviously in a culture like this
25:06
Speaker 3: where everyone's so close knit, especially within your pharmacy, not
25:09
Speaker 3: everyone likes change. Not everyone likes something new. That's that's
25:13
Speaker 3: coming from the top down. You know this This happens
25:16
Speaker 3: in corporate culture as well. How do you address the
25:18
Speaker 3: team to ensure your your your team continues working towards
25:22
Speaker 3: the goal if there is some pushback and were there
25:25
Speaker 3: any hurdles that you that you encountered.
25:27
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think one thing that was the foundation for
25:32
Speaker 6: that having success is that I have a history of
25:37
Speaker 6: kind of calling my shot or or having the vision
25:40
Speaker 6: to see things coming on the horizon and adjusting accordingly,
25:44
Speaker 6: and the solutions I provide to combat those challenges usually work.
25:48
Speaker 6: And so people trust that if I say we need
25:51
Speaker 6: to do something, that I have a good reason to
25:54
Speaker 6: do that, so that I had a little an advantage
25:57
Speaker 6: in that regard, So that helps some the other ones.
26:00
Speaker 6: I had to get over my own hurdle of is
26:03
Speaker 6: it okay to ask people to do more?
26:05
Speaker 5: You know, it's okay to you know.
26:08
Speaker 4: Start and probably putting your trust more in other people. Correct.
26:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's yeah, it's kind of like letting go.
26:14
Speaker 6: I had to be willing to let go of a
26:17
Speaker 6: lot of tasks that I wanted to control. And I'll
26:21
Speaker 6: tell you most independent owners. You know, I would say
26:24
Speaker 6: that that are pharmacists running the counter when they go
26:27
Speaker 6: on vacation, for example, when they come back, they expect
26:30
Speaker 6: all hell to be broken loose and having to fix
26:32
Speaker 6: a thousand.
26:33
Speaker 5: Things when they come back.
26:34
Speaker 6: And it historically that used to be the way it is.
26:38
Speaker 5: And a good example is I.
26:40
Speaker 6: Come back and I thought they didn't even miss me
26:42
Speaker 6: while I was gone. I've let go of so many
26:45
Speaker 6: things that that everybody's taking it on gladly. And then
26:50
Speaker 6: there was the internal people that don't like change. We
26:54
Speaker 6: had to battle that we ultimately had to terminate, you know,
26:58
Speaker 6: someone and but but that's at least they know, you know,
27:04
Speaker 6: the staff knows we're serious about it, and the pharmacist.
27:08
Speaker 5: You know, I'm on the back half of my career.
27:11
Speaker 6: You know, when times were rolling real well, I thought
27:14
Speaker 6: I might even have a chance to retire early and
27:16
Speaker 6: things like that. The challenges of last few years have
27:19
Speaker 6: made it just very difficult. And you know, I'm preaching
27:22
Speaker 6: to the choir here, but I did thought, you know, what,
27:25
Speaker 6: if I'm going to be up here, I'm going to
27:28
Speaker 6: enjoy myself. I'm tired of taking a beating from all
27:32
Speaker 6: the things that I'm the negative obstacles that I'm focusing on.
27:36
Speaker 5: So we got together, like what do we want to do?
27:39
Speaker 6: That really helped, you know, like we I'm a huge
27:42
Speaker 6: proponent of wellness.
27:43
Speaker 5: I love the wellness part.
27:44
Speaker 6: We have one pharmacist that want to help us change
27:47
Speaker 6: a part of our pharmacy into a boutique and now
27:50
Speaker 6: we have a pretty successful online and in store boutique
27:54
Speaker 6: called Myles and Bishop and it helps contribute to the
27:57
Speaker 6: bottom line.
27:58
Speaker 5: And so we're you know, we're to do anything I
28:00
Speaker 5: guess is what I'm saying.
28:02
Speaker 6: And so that's that's kind of where that you know,
28:05
Speaker 6: that's where it's all all come.
28:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think pharmacy ideas are great, especially
28:10
Speaker 3: adding revenue, but when it when it's something that connects
28:13
Speaker 3: with your pharmacy staff, it makes it that much better.
28:16
Speaker 4: They're going to be just as passionate about it as
28:18
Speaker 4: you are.
28:19
Speaker 6: Yes, and the and the pharmacist are all in agreement
28:22
Speaker 6: that we want culture.
28:24
Speaker 5: I mean, just south of grass gross profit.
28:27
Speaker 6: You know, we culture is important to all of us,
28:30
Speaker 6: and so we're not going to let it get poisoned
28:34
Speaker 6: without addressing it.
28:35
Speaker 3: Are there any other future changes your team is planning
28:38
Speaker 3: to implement that you're most excited about when it comes
28:41
Speaker 3: to culture within your pharmacy or whether you know it's
28:45
Speaker 3: another service you want to add.
28:47
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're wet.
28:51
Speaker 6: We do a lot of hormone compounding stuff, and we
28:53
Speaker 6: do a lot of wellness consults, and of course we've got
28:56
Speaker 6: a decent vaccine program.
28:59
Speaker 5: We're excited about.
29:01
Speaker 6: Building our tech roster and their skills, but also as
29:06
Speaker 6: a staff, increasing our medsinc.
29:08
Speaker 5: So that we can do more of these things.
29:10
Speaker 6: We want to do more wellness based appointments and just
29:15
Speaker 6: have more time with the patient because we've kind of
29:18
Speaker 6: transformed our model into not the price a nice place
29:23
Speaker 6: to get appealed, it's the man. This is where I'm
29:26
Speaker 6: going because I trust these guys. They love me, They're
29:29
Speaker 6: going to They're not gonna steer me wrong. I want
29:31
Speaker 6: to get my blood sugar under control. I'm going to
29:33
Speaker 6: go see pharmacists so and so to get me started
29:36
Speaker 6: on a good path, set me up on a regimen,
29:39
Speaker 6: you know, tell me what to do kind of thing.
29:41
Speaker 4: Love that.
29:42
Speaker 3: So, just to kind of wrap up this section of
29:45
Speaker 3: our interview, what advice would you give to a fellow
29:48
Speaker 3: independent pharmacy owner interested in taking on this change or
29:52
Speaker 3: involving their pharmacy culture and your processes. I know you
29:56
Speaker 3: gave a few tidbits, you know, as far as learning
29:59
Speaker 3: to let go when a couple of other things you
30:01
Speaker 3: had to get past, you know, for your own for
30:05
Speaker 3: your own business and your own self. But just some
30:09
Speaker 3: quick takeaways for them to really, you know, take this
30:12
Speaker 3: all in and to start implementing it.
30:13
Speaker 4: What what advice would you give?
30:16
Speaker 6: You know, it's probably harder for some of us older pharmacists,
30:19
Speaker 6: but the first thing you got to work on is yourself.
30:22
Speaker 6: And and for me that took you know, reading some
30:26
Speaker 6: books that I didn't want to read, you know, but
30:28
Speaker 6: I read them anyway, you know, I read I read
30:31
Speaker 6: a book called by Back Your Time, Unreasonable Hospitality, some
30:35
Speaker 6: of these some of these books that are customer service focused,
30:38
Speaker 6: or you know, just find some mentor businesses out there
30:41
Speaker 6: that are just killing it and learn what they're doing
30:44
Speaker 6: that you're not. And then you know, it's your career,
30:48
Speaker 6: it's your life.
30:48
Speaker 5: You can do what you want to do, and.
30:50
Speaker 6: You choose how you want to be treated and how
30:53
Speaker 6: you want to work. And I just felt like I
30:56
Speaker 6: was being dragged by the industry, you know, and now
30:59
Speaker 6: I decided to take the reins back into my own hands.
31:02
Speaker 5: So I worked on myself first.
31:04
Speaker 6: And then I realized, you know, if I have a
31:07
Speaker 6: problem with controlling things, I need to learn how to
31:10
Speaker 6: possibly let some things go.
31:12
Speaker 5: You know.
31:12
Speaker 6: I need to also reevaluate how I deal with my employees,
31:17
Speaker 6: how I hire people, how I you know, how I
31:20
Speaker 6: evaluate and discipline people.
31:22
Speaker 5: Those are all things that if you're in that motive,
31:25
Speaker 5: we've always done it.
31:26
Speaker 6: This way and and but yet you still won't change.
31:30
Speaker 5: You're going to have to change some things.
31:32
Speaker 6: I just didn't think that that area could be changed,
31:37
Speaker 6: nor did I understand how big of a difference it
31:39
Speaker 6: would make. And yes, I want everybody to be happy
31:42
Speaker 6: and enjoy their job. I just didn't realize how much
31:45
Speaker 6: of a difference it would make on us being able
31:47
Speaker 6: to achieve economic goals.
31:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a big Yeah, that's a huge
31:53
Speaker 3: part of it. I think people look at the task ahead,
31:56
Speaker 3: they look at you know, just talking to other pharmacists,
31:58
Speaker 3: they look at the task they look at at what
32:00
Speaker 3: the work you have to put in to make the change,
32:03
Speaker 3: and maybe to them it doesn't go as far beyond
32:07
Speaker 3: them putting in that work as to actually reach your
32:10
Speaker 3: bottom line, and I think you're a great.
32:13
Speaker 4: Example of that.
32:14
Speaker 3: It actually does change your bottom line if you do
32:16
Speaker 3: the right things the right way.
32:17
Speaker 5: That's right.
32:19
Speaker 3: I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your involvement
32:22
Speaker 3: with your state pharmacy association and your state legislature, which
32:26
Speaker 3: you talked about earlier before you kind of gave a
32:31
Speaker 3: few nuggets about that. So I do want to ask
32:34
Speaker 3: you because I know you're heavily involved in this, and
32:37
Speaker 3: obviously this is always a big topic of conversation when
32:39
Speaker 3: it comes to independent pharmacists.
32:41
Speaker 4: It's top of mind.
32:43
Speaker 3: How has your involvement influenced the culture ships and your
32:45
Speaker 3: pharmacy and empowering staff, that being your involvement with state
32:51
Speaker 3: pharmacy associations and legislature.
32:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there's a couple of schools of thought.
32:56
Speaker 6: People think it's this obligation because you're in the profession,
32:59
Speaker 6: that you have have to be obligated to support the profession,
33:04
Speaker 6: attend meetings, be a member, things like that, And if
33:09
Speaker 6: you have.
33:09
Speaker 5: That mindset, you're quick to say, well, what have they
33:11
Speaker 5: done for me lately? I'm not joining them.
33:13
Speaker 6: They you know, the PBMs are still killing me. You know,
33:16
Speaker 6: forget them. I think if in Tennessee our state association
33:21
Speaker 6: and our lobbying and our we're one of the leaders
33:25
Speaker 6: of the fifty states. I mean, we've done a lot
33:27
Speaker 6: of great things, and it's because of our strong association
33:31
Speaker 6: and our relationships with our legislators, and we have a
33:35
Speaker 6: great organization, great great leaders. What gripes me a little
33:39
Speaker 6: bit about that is there is also a sect of
33:43
Speaker 6: our independent pharmacy society that aren't involved at all.
33:49
Speaker 5: And I think when.
33:51
Speaker 6: I hear of horror stories that give us a bad name,
33:55
Speaker 6: or I hear of people doing things they shouldn't be doing,
33:58
Speaker 6: or you know, just things that come across the news
34:01
Speaker 6: that make us look bad. I never see those people
34:03
Speaker 6: at meetings. They're not members of these associations. So one
34:08
Speaker 6: going makes you a better pharmacist period. Just being around
34:13
Speaker 6: mentors and getting training and attending meetings, there is a
34:18
Speaker 6: selfish reason to go. You're gonna learn things, You're gonna
34:22
Speaker 6: be first at the table when a new program rolls out.
34:26
Speaker 6: You're going to learn what works and what doesn't work
34:28
Speaker 6: the quickest, and so it makes you more agile beyond
34:32
Speaker 6: just an obligation. I think it's vital you do those
34:35
Speaker 6: sings and a lot of the things that I've learned
34:37
Speaker 6: to do that made our business successful is because I'm
34:39
Speaker 6: involved with the advocacy part of pharmacy. I just wish
34:44
Speaker 6: that more people can see that it is a two
34:47
Speaker 6: way street.
34:48
Speaker 5: You get out of it what you put into it.
34:50
Speaker 3: Is it a do you think there's an impact from
34:53
Speaker 3: your pharmacies on your on your pharmacy staff?
34:55
Speaker 4: I should say, where they see you.
34:56
Speaker 3: Doing this and advocating, and they in a way, maybe
35:00
Speaker 3: they're not with you at the table, but maybe they
35:03
Speaker 3: see you that you're in a way fighting for them
35:05
Speaker 3: as well.
35:06
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean when a US Congressman walks in our
35:09
Speaker 6: door frequently, you know, when we talked to our state
35:11
Speaker 6: and local representatives and they come to me, I know
35:15
Speaker 6: that's huge they see that impact. But also when we
35:19
Speaker 6: when I come back from Nashville and say, hey, I
35:21
Speaker 6: think we got this law passed, or the Department of
35:24
Speaker 6: Commerce and Insurance is working on this, it lets them
35:28
Speaker 6: see that, hey, yes, you go fight that battle.
35:30
Speaker 5: We'll take care of the pharmacy.
35:33
Speaker 6: And then also I will come back with hey next
35:36
Speaker 6: year we're all going to attend this meeting because it's
35:37
Speaker 6: on a Saturday, and it helps us jail together even
35:41
Speaker 6: better as a group.
35:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember being I think I actually met up
35:46
Speaker 3: when I think it was DC, either last year or
35:50
Speaker 3: the year before.
35:51
Speaker 4: I think you were there.
35:52
Speaker 3: And yeah, we had talked to a couple of different
35:54
Speaker 3: pharmacist and there was a pharmacists in particular that was
35:57
Speaker 3: there for the first time, and I think they were
35:59
Speaker 3: a little bit not intimidated, but almost in a way
36:03
Speaker 3: starstruck at all the different the different information, and the
36:07
Speaker 3: different things that she was learning just being in that
36:10
Speaker 3: room hearing you guys talk about it, And I think
36:12
Speaker 3: to your point earlier where you said, if you go
36:15
Speaker 3: in and if you're going to go into these meetings
36:17
Speaker 3: and you're going to be a part of this, you're
36:19
Speaker 3: going to learn so much. You're going to be a
36:21
Speaker 3: part of the movement, a part of the culture, and
36:25
Speaker 3: I think that's really important. How would you recommend a
36:28
Speaker 3: fellow independent pharmacist get involved at the local or state level.
36:32
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think first of all, joining the
36:36
Speaker 6: association and you say, well, we're making less money than ever.
36:40
Speaker 6: I don't have the four hundred dollars or whatever it is.
36:43
Speaker 6: Join the association. The numbers do matter, you know. In Tennessee,
36:47
Speaker 6: for example, Nursing Association, it's part of your licensure, so
36:50
Speaker 6: they have automatically a huge amount of people in their association,
36:55
Speaker 6: and nurses get a lot of privileges in Tennessee because
36:57
Speaker 6: of that.
36:58
Speaker 5: If you don't do anything but join, that's number one.
37:02
Speaker 5: But number two is locally.
37:04
Speaker 6: You know, when I first started pharmacy twenty something years
37:08
Speaker 6: ago here, there was not a lot.
37:10
Speaker 5: Of connection between pharmacy owners.
37:13
Speaker 6: It was almost a competition and I don't trust the
37:16
Speaker 6: guy down the street. And now it's to the point
37:19
Speaker 6: to where if we don't stick together, we're all going
37:21
Speaker 6: to sink. And so we have a really good network
37:24
Speaker 6: a lot of times of pharmacy owners and we all
37:27
Speaker 6: feel like cream rise to the top, you know, and
37:29
Speaker 6: so we all.
37:30
Speaker 5: Try to help each other. And that goes.
37:34
Speaker 6: Into I have two or three owners in my area,
37:38
Speaker 6: and when a US Congressman or a state guy wants
37:41
Speaker 6: us to support them, we all band together and get
37:44
Speaker 6: together and get more people to support them. And what
37:47
Speaker 6: the legislators I think realizing our area is in my pharmacy,
37:51
Speaker 6: we see hundreds of patients a week, you know, and
37:54
Speaker 6: like we are a hub of all the entire community
37:58
Speaker 6: from all walks of life life, both sides of the OWL,
38:01
Speaker 6: all sorts of socioeconomic spectrum, and the central.
38:06
Speaker 5: Hub is they have a conversation with me. They trust me,
38:08
Speaker 5: you know.
38:08
Speaker 6: And I think I think legislators that are savvy appreciate
38:13
Speaker 6: that that dynamic.
38:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're stronger together mindset. While it works
38:18
Speaker 3: in a lot of different industries, I think none more
38:20
Speaker 3: so than pharmacy, especially these days. And I think the
38:23
Speaker 3: more people that are involved, the better. And you know,
38:27
Speaker 3: with that, Jason, I you know, always great talking to you, man.
38:30
Speaker 4: I always learned so much as hearing your.
38:33
Speaker 3: Thought processes, and I knew you were such a really
38:38
Speaker 3: not only driven pharmacist. When you talk about your legislative
38:41
Speaker 3: mindset and just being involved, but also these things you're
38:44
Speaker 3: doing within your pharmacy to really build a culture.
38:46
Speaker 4: I think it's really important.
38:47
Speaker 3: Not enough gets said about it, and I'm really happy
38:49
Speaker 3: that you were able to share some time with us
38:52
Speaker 3: and go through all these tips that you have. I
38:55
Speaker 3: think it's been really amazing to hear.
38:57
Speaker 5: Man.
38:58
Speaker 6: Thank you, Jason. I appreciate Cardinal They've been good in
39:02
Speaker 6: helping support me in.
39:03
Speaker 5: Those areas too.
39:04
Speaker 4: Well.
39:05
Speaker 3: With all that said, I want to say thanks to
39:06
Speaker 3: Jason Kaiser for providing his valuable tips on building that
39:09
Speaker 3: team culture within your pharmacy. I thought it was truly insightful,
39:13
Speaker 3: so I hope you all enjoyed it and I hope
39:15
Speaker 3: you all learned as much as I did. And to
39:17
Speaker 3: all of you, thanks for listening to today's episode of
39:19
Speaker 3: the Cardinal Health counter Talk podcast. As a reminder, if
39:22
Speaker 3: this is your first time listening, make sure you subscribe
39:25
Speaker 3: and download the Cardinal Health counter Talk podcast wherever you
39:28
Speaker 3: get your podcasts. See you on the next episode, and
39:31
Speaker 3: take care everyone.