Latest / Birth at Work / S2 EP22 | Beth Wanner: Laid Off Twice While Pregnant, Building Mother Cover
Transcript
- Krislyn Powell: Well, we're so thrilled to have Beth on the show today and to share her story, not only about her professional experience throughout her career, but also about building her family and starting her own business. So Beth, share a few details with us, why you've joined the show and what our listeners can look forward to this episode. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: So first, thank you very much for having me. I'll try to give you the quick version, but I spent 15 years in the tech industry as a marketing executive, and all along that time, in the back of my mind, I was trying to figure out when's the right time to start a family. With a high-paced, fast-paced, demanding career, it was always a concern about what any time away would look like for that. Ended up going through infertility and then through IVF, got laid off, went on the job hunt, got another job as a pregnant woman, shared that was pregnant, got fired at eight months pregnant. very much a roller coaster of several years, but that led me to where I am now, which is the founder of Mother Cover, which places interim and fractional professionals in for parental leaves. And we'll dive in all into that, I'm sure, but with the goal of protecting individuals who are stepping out on leave, but showing companies that there's a way to operationalize this in a way that you don't have to decide. between caregiving and your career or supporting your employee and the performance of your company, that is where that incredibly rocky road led me to. Krislyn Powell: Wow, I am so excited to dive into your story today. And just that intro is already, I already resonate with that so much just with my story. And I'm sure so many of our listeners can and do feel the same as they're preparing to build their families, as they're building their families and going through this and just wishing that they had someone that they could kind of lean on and learn from their story as well. Again, so thrilled to have you here. let's start here from what you just shared. It sounds like as you were climbing the corporate ladder, you probably were asking yourself, when's the right time to start a family? And there's never necessarily a perfect time, but were there fears that came up for you as you were thinking about that? What were some of the thoughts that came up through your mind as you were going through that, as you were chatting with your husband about it? Just take us through that time period for you as you were thinking about starting that family. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, there are a few different things that were always kind of in the back of my mind. One, I was fortunate enough to be on this upward trajectory. So I was moving from leading smaller teams to director to eventually VP and sitting on the executive of these teams and growing companies. But with each new opportunity, it kind of pushed that timeline back a little bit. Well, now is definitely the wrong time. I'm stepping into this new role. This is the wrong time to start. family or it was changing to a new company. Well now I don't have those relationships that I've built before. I'm needing to prove myself here again. Again, that's the wrong time to step away. And then tech moves so quickly that I thought any time away really is invisibility for a period of time. And you could be coming back to an entirely different company. it was those fears about wrong time. what it would be like to be away for any period of time and then the other was around the assumptions that are made for you when you become a parent. So would there be hidden biases that I would face about my dedication, my ability to perform at the level that I was performing at and then the fears that I put on myself where you have a lot of conversations around motherhood really changes you. and I almost took that as a negative of, really like this career-driven Beth. I know her, I love her, I've cultivated her. What does becoming a mother mean? Am I gonna lose that? And I was fearful of what that meant. Krislyn Powell: Well, just leaning into that for a moment, that identity shift that you mentioned, it's huge and you don't quite know what to expect with that shift. you mentioned you've cultivated this persona, you know this, Beth, like who am I walking into this next phase as I become a mother and what does that mean and when is it right? It sounds like there was some delay as you, were on respective teams within tech, as you mentioned, and it seemed like things were moving lightning fast, like, oh, this isn't the right time, which again, I can relate to that as well. But when you did decide to try, I know you hit infertility, what was it like going through fertility treatments and while you were also leading high performing teams? Did you feel like you had to keep it quiet? Was there any internal struggle there? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: I did and not from anything that I really gauged outwardly. It was really just... Reconciling the realities of the society that we still live in and that one it's a personal thing at the same time It feels like this is nobody else's business if you're not going through infertility and you're just deciding to start a family That's a really private thing. You're not exactly announcing that to the world. So I wanted the same privacy for myself going through that but at the same time I also didn't want to put a target on my back because I know that again telling everybody that you're wanting to start your family means that you're proactively saying that you're about to potentially take time away or when you're dealing with infertility that you are dealing with something extremely heavy and stressful in your personal life. It takes a lot of appointments. It takes a lot of just mental capacity. So was there going to be any judgment again on my capabilities? So I made the effort to keep that entirely separate from my professional relationships and even put more pressure on myself to over perform so that there was no no cracks in the surface of anybody suspecting that there might be something going on in my personal life and I can tell you that that isn't sustainable it isn't healthy But it's what I felt I needed to do because I didn't know it if my fertility journey was going to have a great ending I didn't know whether motherhood was something that I was going to be able to get to. So at the same time if I'm then going to risk my career I might end up with nothing. It was my ultimate fear. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's heavy. It feels like just, I'm just thinking through, you know, this standard motherhood too, like going through day to day and the sort of like invisible labor and mask that we put on of like, everything's perfect. We have to manage everything at home and also at work and we're fine, we're doing great, right? And then, but also the fertility journey, like even before all of that, before having kids, before building the family, it's... that is a heavy weight to carry and it's not always comfortable sharing that information. That's personal, right? And like you said, you don't know what the outcome is gonna be. So it sounds like, I mean, for you and probably for many others too, it's not worth risking the stigma of having that open in the workplace and then what might people think, right? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: So somebody sharing a medical diagnosis like cancer would typically get, hopefully, more empathy and kind of understanding of, yes, of course, you need time away for these different appointments and things like that. There's been studies that have shown the stress and toll that infertility takes on somebody is the equivalent of going through a cancer treatment, but it's not seen that way. So even if you do disclose it, it's not likely that it's going to be understood exactly what you're going through. Krislyn Powell: That's a great point, and I'm really, really grateful that you shared that because I think that's what we're working towards here with this conversation, but there's a lack of education right now, not only in the workplace, but I think as a society around maternal education, right? And what it means in the fertility journey, during pregnancy, birth, postpartum, we just don't talk about those things. It is a huge physical and emotional journey for a woman to undergo. just a really valid point that you just shared of like people don't necessarily understand what that means. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, and I wouldn't have either until I'd gone through it. thank you for having these platforms where you can talk about it because I agree it's very important to help others understand the gravity of what going through those processes really holds for somebody. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, absolutely. And I know you mentioned too, after you found out you were pregnant with IVF, after all of that work, right? The groundwork you had laid there, the journey you had had there, and really that happy news of the success, you were then laid off. Take us back to that moment. What went through your mind when that was happening? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, so that was part of the reason of keeping it close to my chest as well too in in the tech sector and a lot of industries there has been more and more layoffs. So while that was going on at that time I was like again, I don't want to wave the flag to say there's I might be taking time away this is what's going on my life. So I kept it really close to my chest to make sure that I wasn't a layoff target Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: like that I was overachieving hitting our goals making sure that my my career was safe Towards the timing of the second IVF transfer that we did the first one didn't work. I knew that there were layoffs happening at the company that I was at because I was part of the exec team. I felt assured that my role wasn't impacted so it was over the Christmas holidays that we went forward with doing our second IVF transfer. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: For anyone who's gone through it you have your 10-day window before you do a blood test. to understand if that transfer was successful. we returned after the holidays. We understood that the board had met and wanted to do further cuts. And with that information, I was like, I don't feel secure in my role knowing that we're going to make even further cuts. So I remember having a conversation with my husband while we waiting for that blood work to come back and sharing with him that I think I might be impacted. I think I might be losing my job. what would you rather happen? Would you rather I keep my job and our results are negative or that we're having a baby but I lose my job? And I at the time was the primary breadwinner of my family so losing my job was significant and This is a testament to who my husband is, but he did not skip a beat and said, lose your job, let's have a baby. And Krislyn Powell: No. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: that's what happened. So we got my blood results on a Sunday. I was laid off on a Tuesday, and it was the most highs and lows I've ever felt in a course of 48 hours. Krislyn Powell: That's... I think, again, so many of our listeners can relate to your story, but I've been through a layoff. I've had that emotional roller coaster. I haven't gone through IVF myself, but I can just imagine what was going through your mind. And also, just a moment for your partner and how supportive he was, and that's so needed as you're going through this journey. just... a lot of things, like you said, in 48 hours. So then, I'm curious, how soon did you flip on from, we're having a baby, the layoff happened, now I need to go into job search mode because you mentioned you were the primary breadwinner. How soon did that all happen and as you were going through the job search... Was it your decision to disclose pregnancy at that time too? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, so to answer the first part, immediately. I immediately went on the job hunt and that's kind of what I've noticed of myself throughout all these kind of trials and tribulations of it's that immediate fight or flight, it's fight. And mine was I need to go on the job hunt because again, when you find out that you're pregnant through IVF, you are very early pregnant. You are maybe four weeks pregnant. So and because when you go through infertility, you don't trust your body anymore. So I didn't know if this just because I'm pregnant now for the first time. I don't know that this is going to go okay, so I need to find that next job. I don't know what's going to happen and I don't want to take any more time away than I was already thinking that I would take for a hopefully maternity leave so I immediately go on the job hunt and I did not tell anybody that I was pregnant we told our close friends and family we didn't even tell kind of extended. Beyond that was which was really hard you going through years of infertility you want to shout from the rooftops that you find. I have this exciting news but I had to hold it again because you just don't know who's going to know who who's going to say well she's pregnant don't hire her she's going to go on on leave all of those sort of things so again it's another thing that I kept really close to my chest and people were saying well just take some time Why don't you enjoy having some time off? But in my mind, I can't I've got this ticking clock of I have so much time and when you're doing an executive hire, one, those types of roles aren't a dime a dozen, so you have to wait for one to come around that fits your skills and background. And then those interview processes, when you're lucky enough to land and get into that, they can be months long. when you're talking about having maybe seven or eight months before you're going on leave, that time frame, that clock starts right away to find that job. Krislyn Powell: And you did land a roll. You were successful in finding that. after, yeah, just such a quick turnaround of, you we talked about that 48 hours, immediately into job searching, the mum's the word as you're going through the job search, right? Trying to move forward and find another job that fits you and, you know, secures financials for your family. But you did land that role, you were successful. And then that's when you shared about your pregnancy, right? What Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: happened then? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, so it took me about, I want to say four months or so to find this role. So I was four or five months pregnant. I waited until I signed the offer. felt like that was the earliest point where I was protected to be able to share that news. I know it's a personal decision of when you want to disclose, whether you disclose during the interview process. The advice that I received was that you're never going to know if it's in the interview process, why you weren't moved ahead. You might have your suspicions that it had to do with your pregnancy, but you really can't know that for sure. And I wanted them to fall in love with me and realize that I am the right person for this role. I have the right skill set. And that me taking maternity leave is a small fraction of the overall time that we're going to spend together. So that is what happened. and I was offered another VP of marketing role, shared that I was pregnant after I signed the offer, and I wasn't expecting them to jump up and down and be excited about it, but I wasn't expecting what I did get, and it was not even tried to hide that they were upset with it and very unhappy. Krislyn Powell: That's wild to me. I have also gone through an experience just personally relating to where I job searched while pregnant and I also made the decision to disclose after receiving and signing the offer. Just as, you know, like you said, that was the advice I was given. It like it was the stable way to go and in return, there was a little concern from the recruiter at the time but the hiring manager and team were very supportive. And I was lucky enough to go through a situation where they said, you know, we're looking for the right person, we're willing to wait kind of thing, you are the right person. That's very rare, I think. I think your story and unfortunately, what I've heard as this show has continued on, we've been having these conversations with working mothers is that more often than not, that's the case is when pregnancy is disclosed, there's often a not a supportive environment, right? People coming back and saying, actually, and there's maybe a change in the role title or compensation or rescinding of the job altogether, which again, is so wild to me. This is why we're having this conversation. But what made you decide to go public with that story? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, so skipping ahead, I did start at this company. I think we both felt stuck. I, again, being four or five months pregnant, knowing what the process would be like if I had to start from scratch looking for another job again. was like, I'm probably not going to be able to. And now I'm thinking, one, about my career and the other is the financial stability of my family going into this. So I have to swallow my pride and work for someone who well ⁓ hates me and I was like that it was a lot Krislyn Powell: That's what it feels like, right? Yeah. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Think of more eloquent words, but that's what it felt like and that's what was going to work every day with somebody you know does not support the decisions that you've made is really thinking about that you are a detriment to their company and that was really hard. But at the same time I think a lot of women do this to themselves to where I put it back on me where I was just like I misjudged the situation, but I made this bed I have to lay in it, I have to figure out a way to make this work. I again have to perform and make sure that I prove to them that I'm a great hire. It just felt like those goal posts were constantly moving and there was nothing that I could do to make that relationship repaired and better and I ended up getting fired at eight months pregnant which I felt completely blindsided by and immediately again went into whether it's that fight or flight mode, it was fight again. And that next step was to call a lawyer and figure out what we were going to do from a legal standpoint because I knew that this was absolutely wrong. And then that led to sharing my story. So that was the first step was contacting lawyers. I am eight months pregnant at this point. I have a high risk pregnancy that needs a medical c-section. So I'm figuring out all those steps as my baby's about to to arrive. So that was the first thing lawyer, get ready for this baby, have a baby. And then so I was fired in July of 2023, my daughter was born in August and then it was I believe November when I first shared about this story on LinkedIn and heard from floods of other women who whether they experienced that level of discrimination as so many who had experienced layoffs, whether during pregnancy, on maternity leave, shortly after returning from maternity leave, or just feeling like motherhood collided with their career in a very negative way. Krislyn Powell: What other patterns did you notice in those stories? You said, essentially the themes that were resonating with you, you were seeing in those messages a hundredfold, right? Coming through from all of these women as you shared on LinkedIn. And what do you think, like on a deeper level, and you step back, you know, with all this time, right? That you had to step back and analyze this. As you were looking at these experiences, what do you think this revealed about... the greater nature of how companies work, of how working motherhood is, you know, were you thinking, are there any supportive companies even out there? Like, what was your frame of mind at that point? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, since I was up at night now with a newborn, but all these stories of women who had been reaching out to me were also on loop in my mind and it made me kind put back on my former executive hat and I have worked for some really great companies and I thought about those companies and that even the supportive ones when somebody comes and shares that they're pregnant you say congratulations but then the door shuts and often it's a oh no moment of whether it's vocalized or just what somebody's internalizing and thinking, this means more work on my plate, I've got to figure out what this coverage looks like or how we're going to handle this person's role, are we going to pause projects, are we going to miss goals, all those things immediately start playing in your mind even when you want to support this person that's going on on leave and having something important going on in their lives. So... the thought shifted to the logistical challenge that companies have and if we can solve for those fears so that they can just say congratulations and be like great we have a plan in place for how we handle when somebody has to step out on leave because it's not just parental leaves there's increasing mental health leaves there's medical leaves there's sabbaticals all these sort of things so it's also not just a women's issue there's more dads taking parental leave which is great so we all need these accommodations in our lives where we need to balance both caregiving and taking care of our career. So the hypothesis was around if I can chip away at the logistical concerns. I can help companies who want to be supportive but just don't necessarily know how or aren't even really aware of kind of those internal thoughts and where they're coming from. The extreme cases, those who really just don't value their employees as human beings and recognizing these important life moments that they have in their life, I probably am not going to solve for those ones. But the ones in the middle, the ones that want to do better, those ones we can absolutely support by helping with those logistical concerns that are natural with any type of leave. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, I think to your point, it's like they have to already be taking steps in the right direction. know, can't, those types of clients are not gonna come to you with open arms. The ones that are the extreme of like, there's not even a policy in place, right? Or they are not supportive of working parents in some way, or form. Maybe there's not some flexibility in the workplace. So to your point there, yeah. And as I'm reminiscing on my experience as well, just tying this in, I think this is... speaks to what you've built because that experience where I had the pregnancy job search and then they said, you're the right person. I was in a very fortunate situation where there was already a part-time person prior to me that was hired and she was established, had already been there a year and was functioning in that capacity where they needed to hire a larger role. so when I was hired, they were already functioning with that part-time person and So stepping away for six weeks, which is all I took, was a drop in the bucket. ⁓ That was already what she was doing. And so there was already a person established. So I'm just thinking, I lucked out. But there are so many organizations that want to do better, don't have a part-time person or a fractional person, someone covering, right? Hence, Mother Cover. ready for action and they might have a policy that says, you know, XYZ, we support working parents in this way, but then there's not a culture around it. The managers don't know how to implement it. They're not actively doing it, or maybe there isn't a policy in place. So I'm curious, how did you go from this idea to actually building out the solution? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, well, I... I actually fought against the idea for quite a long time. I thought I was just going to go back into the corporate world. I was interviewing right away again. But I just had this feeling that something bigger has to come out of this. And I had thought about the idea for Mother Cover. I was more so thinking of it for myself maybe as a niche for me to step into marketing executive roles and cover for leaves. But the more that I shared the idea with other individuals, They're like this has to exist and then a lot of googling and looking for something that does exist in quite that way and couldn't find it. So again being a marketer, was like, okay, I've got a market problem. There isn't a solution to it. Let's create a category around in it and really create this and fill a need for it. And again thinking about my experience. I don't think this would have helped my exact situation, but I remember feeling it at the time of The burden I want to come with a solution I want them to not feel like I'm dumping a problem on their plate to be like how are you going to solve for me being away so having a partner like Mother Cover that I could have reached out to to say hey, this is my role that I have this is the time frame that I'm going to be out. Do you have a professional I could I could recommend to put forward ⁓ into this role and just feel like I was taking that step so whether you are ⁓ new to a company and are pregnant and sharing that that helps but also I know that people have been with their company ⁓ for several years still feel that same ⁓ hesitancy about sharing that they're pregnant because they feel like they're now burdening their team. They know that the work just going to get dispersed amongst their existing team. Teams are leaner than they've ever been. They know what burnout feels like for their employees. Maybe they've covered for leaves in the past too. So really wanting to come with a solution that alleviates that feeling of burden for everybody. The person going on leave, the team members, the managers tasked with figuring it out. Krislyn Powell: And it's so refreshing too, just like that you were able to take your pain and essentially turn that into powerful moments for others. Just take the rough path and smooth it over, right? Look at this as like, okay, this is my pain point. This is the problem. Become kind of married to that problem of how can we create solutions for companies so that it's not just the parents' problem. It's not. your reality isn't going to be every other mother's or every working parent's. We can find a solution for various companies to not only, it sounds like, allow the business to continue, but also allow the parent to take a true leave and not be stressed out or worried that their job is at risk. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: No. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. And can you explain a little bit more about the interim leadership coverage and how that actually works in practice? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Sure, so we have developed and keep growing what we call a roster of leave partners. So these are professionals with a minimum of 10 plus years of experience, even if the role that they're stepping into doesn't require that much seniority. We tell our clients that you want to kind of over hire for a parental leave or any type of leave. So you have somebody who knows how to integrate with a team can hit the ground running. If it's a 12 week leave, you don't have a month to spend ramping somebody up. So these are experienced professionals to be able to step into various roles, whether it's HR, marketing, finance, sales, operations, you name it, from a senior individual contributor up to a C suite. So these are all pre-vetted individuals who have come into our network that we can then match with companies who have upcoming leaves. And it's all we do. So we don't do other types of ongoing contractor or fractional engagements. It's always for stepping in for somebody because I believe very strongly that there's different processes and different skills required Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: when you're stepping in for somebody versus stepping into a vacancy or project work. Speaking to those logistical concerns for companies, we make it really easy to find it and place somebody because we've already got that roster so you don't have to post a role and go through thousands of resumes and do your full recruitment process for somebody who's only going to be with you for a short period of time. You can trust the skill sets that they have. We've built transition programs and templates, the communication for the parent during the leave and then the re-onboarding portion as well which is something that a lot of companies have overlooked. We really look at it like we are running a relay. So we have the handoff of a baton to the person and the lead partner that's stepping in for somebody on leave. They're carrying forward their strategy, their professional reputation, their work while they're out on leave and being able to focus on their family. And then there's that baton handoff back Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: to them. So saying almost like it doesn't have to feel like a career pause because your work, your strategy moved as if you were still in seat. Handed back to you as if you were still there and your company gets that continuity, your company gets that work that is done at a high level. They don't have to feel like this was charity or a favor that you were allowed or enabled to take time away. They got what they needed, you got what you needed and now you're back in that role. Krislyn Powell: I love that analogy. It's that baton handoff and having played sports, it's just, I'm picturing the track and field, right? You know, Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: it's like, okay, onto the next, but that is something that is sorely missing oftentimes is that communication while out on leave too. Cause I think there's that gap where parents... feel a little bit restless when they're completely cut off from communication while they're away and like how are things going? You know, am I still connected to my team in some way? Like I maybe don't want to be on, right? Quote-unquote. Like I want to spend time with my baby and bond with my family and heal, but at the same time be communicated with and receive those updates of like everything's good. Like you're, you know, we're not going to call you, you're not needed, but we do, we're excited to have you back and here's what's happening while you're away. And then the re-onboarding is crucial. That's, I think, just such a necessary step to create a smooth path when they come back and to feel not only welcomed, but just have those processes handed back over as like they never left. So I think it... That is just incredible. Have you noticed too, as you have tailored your offerings to various clients and businesses and worked with professionals that there have been different packages that you've had to create or is it there's kind of a standard of like care when you provide these services? I know you said you have. a built-in group of professionals that are seasoned and they're ready to step into those roles. How do those kind of conversations go when you're exploring what the client needs and the particular parent that's about to go out and leave? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, so it. Elements of it are fairly standardized and we have our best practices of here's what a great transition looks like, here's how to document and create those breadcrumbs for the role for the person who's going to be returning and here's what a great re-onboarding experience looks like. Where it gets customized and kind of tailored is when a client or a company reaches out to us, we do a discovery call with them to understand the specific role that we're covering for the must haves that they have in somebody who steps into that. It's designing the leave coverage itself. So we typically require at least two weeks of overlap with the person going on leave, but the longer the better, as you never know when a baby is actually going to arrive. And then it's the actual coverage of the role. So we do cover roles up to full time, but it's more common for us to do fractional. So the types of individuals who are on our leave partner roster are building portfolio careers. So they might have other clients that they're working with as well or they might be parents themselves who are just looking for that level of flexibility but on the client side because we recommend to over hire that you want. Like I said, our lead partners have at least 10 plus years of experience. I think we averaged actually closer to 15. They maybe couldn't afford to have that person full time, but here's what 20 hours or 25 hours a week looks like and that you still get the same level of impact, if not more than going more junior 40 hours a week. Plus you get the whole support of Mother Cover. So we talked to them about kind of those different options in different ways. that you can look at it like is that you can still we still do full-time but we show them what fractional can look like and having somebody more senior step into that role as well some of the benefits of that of not needing to do hand-holding taking some of that work off off the people managers plate that's thinking that they need to take on a lot of this extra stuff as well or dispersing things among the team and then it's that re-onboarding period so similar to the transition with the person going out on leave how can we create that same transition for them returning so they can slowly ramp up and their leave partner is slowly ramping down so we reduce hours there and really build kind of this customizable plan for them. Krislyn Powell: Sounds like it's a no-brainer for this type of transition. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: Like what you've created is really, you have the systematic elements that you know work and then can go in and customize and tailor based on the need. So my wish would be for every working mother to be able to have access to this as they take their leaves. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: I hope so too. And dads, so despite the name of Mother Cover, we do Krislyn Powell: Yeah, guess. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: step in for dads as well too. And the more fathers that take leave, the more options women have as well too. So I definitely want to be a champion of dads taking their full maternity leave, or sorry, full paternity leave and spending time with their families too. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, and so relevant. think that's something that we realized too with this show is that as we brought on Working Mothers in season one, in the season two that you're joining, we've had to expand the conversation to Working Dads as well because when... men are able to take their leave, then women benefit too. Regardless if it's other mothers in the workplace, I think all women benefit in the workplace when dads are also taking their leave. Families, coworkers, it's just better for everyone. I love that you're expanding that conversation and the support for dads as we talked about earlier. This is a working parent conversation. It's not just mothers. It sounds like too, with the experience of building this company, you've had the opportunity opportunity to see inside the conversations that are happening and the needs and also take a look fundamentally at what really truly needs to change for for leaves for the better. so beyond coverage, what do you think companies need to understand about supporting employees through parental leave? Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: I think the biggest thing that companies need to understand that policy isn't enough. Policy doesn't equate to practice and you may have a parental leave policy, may have a generous paid parental leave policy, but if individuals don't feel safe enough to take it, they don't feel protected in their career, if team members are feeling resentful because they feel burnt out by having to take on that workload, that's where the plan is not in place. We talk a lot about individuals feeling like they need to win the manager lottery of whether they felt supported before, during or after their leave and that's again a practice issue. that's where we can come in. You don't have to be a parental leave expert. You just have to be curious and want to do better and understand from your own employees what would actually be a supportive parental leave policy and mirror that in practice. It's the policy meets practice is the biggest message that I want to get across to companies. You need both. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's so refreshing because I think there is, like you said, there's that idea that you do have to kind of win the manager lottery and there's so much pressure on managers to know the right thing to do and say even if they're not familiar with it. And I think there's a sore gap between the HR policies and what's actually practiced by managers. And that understanding is not, it's just not always mesh. So like you said, the policy and the practice needs to go hand in hand. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, and understanding the business case for it. So again, you're not doing it, hopefully because you want to support your employees as human beings, but there's the business case for it of the turnover. A third of parents don't return or leave within 18 months of returning from parental leave because they don't feel like they were adequately supported. There's also the burnout. 50% of teams feel burnout covering for leave. There's turn over with that. There's lost productivity. There's potentially lost revenue from projects that didn't move forward. So there is solid business case numbers to put behind supporting your individuals through leaves properly. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, think and retention coming from an employee experience background, I retention. that's a whole conversation that we could have about the benefits for the bottom line of a company when you retain employees versus continuing to churn and burn. But I love that you are able to bring in those numbers and provide business case for these solutions that you're offering too. It's like, it's not just anecdotally, you didn't just live it, but you also have numbers to back it up that this is what's happening. And not only that these parents are going through it, but also that companies could financially benefit from understanding the policy and practice need to go hand in hand. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: So as we close this conversation, I would just love to end on a couple notes here. One is tell us a little bit more about where we can find information on Mother Cover, what we can do to support you as an audience and as we're having this conversation. And we'll move into a final question for you just on your hope for future working parents. So first let's talk about you, your business, what can we do to support you and to learn more. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Yeah, well to learn more about Mother Cover is going to our website, which is mothercoveragency.com. You can learn both from the employee's perspective of what it's like to work with us at the employer side, as well as if you're interested in stepping in to these types of opportunities and becoming a leave partner. If you do fractional or contract work, you can find all that information there and reach out to us. You can follow me on LinkedIn. You can follow Mother Cover on LinkedIn and Instagram. We're always sharing tips and best practices and thought leadership around this space as well. So those are the best avenues to connect with us. Krislyn Powell: I love it. Thank you. And we'll link all that in the show notes and Also, we always just close on a positive of what hope you have for future working parents Would love for you to share that just your perspective on moving forward and your story has been challenging but also inspirational I think to so many listeners and anything else that you have top of mind as you look ahead for what's next for working parents. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Sure. So my hope is that parental leave, any type of leave really gets operationally normalized so that when somebody shares that they've got something going on in their personal life that they need to take a step out for and care for that that is just seen as business as usual that we're looking at the life cycle of an employee and we have have workforce planning that has already taken that into account so that you really can say congratulations or I'm sorry for the circumstances, we can support you through that no questions asked. You've got the infrastructure already that nobody in the background is having that oh no moment of what does this mean for them. If we're treating parental leave or any type of leave like a scramble each and every time it happens, it's showing that that practice gap is there. So hoping to chip away at that gap. Krislyn Powell: Thank you so much. I wholeheartedly agree. And it's been wonderful having you on the show today, Beth. Thank you for joining us and everything you shared today. Beth Wanner | Mother Cover: Thank you so much.