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STSE #82: Mandatory Spay & Neuter · Sometimes There's Side Eye

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Welcome to Sometimes There's Side Eye, a podcast about two
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friends having real and unfiltered conversations about
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dogs and people listen as we talk about our lives with dogs,
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training, behavior, share some laughs and a whole lot of
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banter. I'm Heather.
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And I'm Christy, what are we talking about this week,
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Heather? This week Christy is very
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excited because we are going we are going to have a little on
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the on the fly discussion about mandatory spay and neuter.
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Pros cons Heather's big feelings.
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Christy's. I mean, of course I have
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feelings about this, but I, I'm just going to say part of the
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reason that this came up. I think it's a top, a good topic
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for us to talk about. But if you are involved in the
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rescue community, you are probably seeing some things that
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are really difficult coming across your feed right now about
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Miranda's rescue sanctuary, whatever you want to call it in
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California, which is incredibly sad and incredibly difficult.
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If you worry about keeping your heart safe and do not know about
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it, please don't go and read about it.
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But essentially it was a quote UN quote sanctuary that turns
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out was very similar to a spindle top scenario.
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And there are a lot of missing dogs.
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Yeah, it's basically a House of horrors.
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Yeah, yeah. And so a lot of times when cases
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like this happen, mandatory spay and neuter, it comes to the
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forefront and people start screaming for it.
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And I always find it interesting to read what people are saying.
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And one of the pages that I follow and really resonate with
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is Bad Rap in California. And sure enough, people started
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yelling about mandatory spay and neuter and bad rap had done a
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post about it. And it just got me thinking.
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And it's something that Christy and I have never talked about on
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the podcast. And I thought, hey, let's have a
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discussion on the fly and just sort of like see if we can
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debate this out a little bit because.
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And what did I say? I said no.
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Christy said no. And here.
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We are. Because you know what, Christy?
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You've gotten a lot of softball topics lately, and so here we
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go. I know.
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Tell me how you feel, Heather. And here's the thing, actually,
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before we even really get into the heart of it, I will say I
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understand why people believe that spay and neuter, mandatory
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spay and neuter is necessary or, or they want it.
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I understand surface level, but like everything, there's so many
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nuances to to this discussion. And so I don't want you to
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think, oh, if you're pro mandatory spay and neuter, we're
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gonna like bash you or, or anything like that, but we are
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gonna have a real conversation about where we're both at today.
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And and we would just. Ask that you listen.
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Yeah. And that those where we're at
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today comes from our history in sheltering, in rescue, in
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fostering and buying for Heather ethically bred dogs.
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Now being in the sports world and having both rescue and
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ethically bred dogs and and some not so ethically bred dogs in
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that mix and seeing kind of all of that, I do think we have kind
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of a unique perspective. It also for me comes from a
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place of believing what's the most healthy for our dogs and,
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and, and what that looks like, right.
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I OK, so one very basic or a couple basic takeaways that I
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got because I read all of the comments and sort of went down a
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little bit of a rabbit hole, a social media rabbit hole.
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I know imagine it. A couple things that I thought
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were really, really interesting were were first and foremost
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people saying it is impossible, direct quote word impossible to
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keep an intact dog from procreating.
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Oh, I didn't realize that was a belief.
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There are a lot of people who believe that and I'm just going
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to say that I have had a combined the experience of
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living with intact animals a total of, let's see, 7 + 613
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fifteen years. So three different dogs, a total
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of 15 years. And I have never had an
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accidental pregnancy with any of my animals, nor have any of my
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animals gotten any other dogs accidentally pregnant.
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So I do believe it is possible for people to keep intact
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animals and keep them from procreating.
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Do I also think that that means that accidents never happen?
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No, I think that we are humans and in every single way, when it
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comes to being human, we make mistakes.
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So I'm not saying that everyone's perfect, and I'm not
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even saying that I'm perfect. If I went another 30 years that
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I would never have it happen. But if people are actively
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trying to keep intact animals responsibly, then generally if
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they have a whoopsie, then they are also dealing with that in a
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responsible way. So that I thought was a very
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interesting comment. The other thing that I thought
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was really interesting was the belief that if we make mandatory
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spay and neuter a law, that everyone will automatically
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start following it. And that there are even enough
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resources, free or otherwise, meaning veterinarians, clinics,
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to enforce and make that happen and do all of the surgeries for
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the millions of dogs who live in the US.
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And then on top of it, if people don't do it, that there is
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actually infrastructure to enforce that.
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That really made me just sit back for a moment because that
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just tells me that people are making an impassioned argument,
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but not critically thinking through the whole process or
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understanding the process. Thoughts, Christy?
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Nope, you're doing Christy. Christy's like this is not my
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topic, no. Actually, what I was thinking is
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often laws are put in the books and there isn't an
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infrastructure. They don't know if we can say,
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oh, just because there's not an infrastructure, there shouldn't
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be rules regarding something. However, and I'm not pro spay
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and neuter, mandatory spay and neuter, but I also don't love
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the argument. Well, we don't have the
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infrastructure, so we can't make laws around it because we could
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do that around everything. And some things that we really
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do want to have laws around like we, we can't.
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Well, I'm not, I'm not even going there.
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There's just a lot of areas we can do that with.
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Fair enough. I think where I struggle with it
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too is like, is that OK? You put mandatory spay and
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neuter in on the books. The people who actually need to
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follow it don't care. Now we have mandatory
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registration and mandatory vaccinations.
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Yeah. And guess what?
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Working in the shelter, volunteering in the shelter.
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Do you know how many dogs came in without registration?
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Like, all of them. Very rarely were we like, oh
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look, this dog has its collar and its tags and its
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registration and we just return it right back home.
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And it's proof of rabies. All ready to go?
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All the things you know, even responsible dog owners sometimes
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get late on their, their rabies or their, you know, or sending
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them registration or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
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I I also kind of sit with the whole argument of which I know
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this is an extrapolation and sort of going against what I was
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just saying, But if we actually successfully employed mandatory
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spay and neuter and people followed it, then we would have
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no dogs. Right.
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Yeah. And so I would, since I have not
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gone down the rabbit hole, what are people suggesting?
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Are they suggesting literally every dog be spaying neutered
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and then nothing is left? But I don't, I don't think
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people think that far. They're just like, this is what
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it is. All of these dogs died a
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horrible, horrific death. And if they would have, if
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mandatory spay and neuter was happening, then they wouldn't
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have they that wouldn't have happened to them.
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And I for me, I really struggle with the connection.
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I struggle with what happened with Miranda's rescue and the
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heinous things that happened to those dogs and the connection to
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how mandatory spay and neuter would actually have solved that.
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I struggle. But it's interesting to me that
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there were multiple posts that that's where it was going.
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The connection is a tough thing for me.
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I just brought up the mandatory spay and neuter for us to talk
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about because it came about from these whole this whole whole
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situation. Is the thought that if there was
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mandatory spay and neuter, those dogs wouldn't have existed to be
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in this horrible abuse of people?
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Maybe. But like, we don't have the
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luxury of going back in time. So like right?
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Right, so they would have existed anyway.
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So, yeah, and. So it just doesn't sort of
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compute for me, but. Yeah.
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So, so there's like no, when we talk about mandatory spay and
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neuter, they're saying no exceptions.
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Right. Well, I think that you have a
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scale of what what people are saying.
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You know, they're reasonable, how reasonable they are.
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But most people, when I read on these particular posts, a lot of
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them are saying no, no one should be breeding.
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I think that's really what it comes out to.
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No one should be breeding. Dogs should not be able to
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reproduce. So then they really are putting
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their hope in, in people not following the law.
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So people who don't follow the law of mandatory spay and neuter
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having oops litters and then that supplying dogs because no,
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because nobody is wanting to be without dogs.
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Nobody is like we should just get rid of dogs, period.
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All dogs. Everywhere.
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But also I kind of feel like it's like they see the Today
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problem and worrying about how we would have dogs in the future
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is a tomorrow problem. the Today problem is that there's like an
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extreme overpopulation problem and like dogs have nowhere to go
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and they're suffering and blah, blah, blah.
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Where I actually. Think things are?
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True, They are all true. But I actually think that an
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even bigger today problem is that people don't have the
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resources that they need or the education that they need.
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Yeah. And so if I guess in my mind,
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I'm like, if someone is not educated and doesn't have
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resources having them for be forced to spay their dog and
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they don't have a car to even get their dog to a clinic or
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don't even have a way to pay for their dog's food.
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Or you know what, like, like there's so many pieces that go
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into that, that I, I just feel like the real route to go is
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education and, and then offering resources for people to be able
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to keep their dogs versus ever having to send them to the
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shelter in the 1st place. And then they never end up in a
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place like Miranda's. I mean, if you want to get like
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big picture, which we're not doing today, obviously you can
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extrapolate that to how do we also hold accountable shelters
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and rescues and breeders, everybody not, this is not a
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shelter rescue problem. This is an everybody problem to
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hold accountable to do better by dogs, right?
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And report proper laws, blah blah blah.
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Like I get all of that, but for for the sake of this discussion,
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I would rather see resources go into education and helping
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people keep their dogs in their home, which also goes along with
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educating them. Hey, maybe we want to think
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about spaying and neutering because you know.
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Yeah, I do think that's a big problem for people too, is the
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fact that spay and neuter is so expensive on your own.
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I mean I always get my dog pre. Spayed or neutered because.
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I go through rescue so it's very convenient for me and I know my
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neighbor who found a puppy that was abandoned.
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She ended up in taking it and she had to find a discount place
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because she was like Chrissy. It's going to be like 500 / 500
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dollars. Trin.
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Trin was just under 500 I want to say.
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Yeah, yeah. And she's a bit bigger than
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Trenton already at four or five months.
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So she's a big puppy. And I'm thinking that she did
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the right thing. She wanted to do the right thing
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by this puppy. She brought it into her home.
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She loves it, she cares for it. But man, that's a big burden to
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put on people and say like, hey, that you have to pay this large
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fee. And also on the other side, I
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100% I believe that should be paid.
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They're doing a surgery. So there's two sides of the coin
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there that I do believe our medical professionals in the
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veterinary field should deserve to be paid, but also that that
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payment is a burden on a lot of people trying to do the right
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thing. And so it it kind of goes both
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ways like and I don't know how you would mandate that.
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Yeah. A little side note to that, that
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I think is really cool that I saw today is that California
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just signed into a law that California veterinarians can
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donate up to 4 hours towards free spay and neuter clinics
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towards their continuing education requirements for their
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state licensing. So I actually saw that and was
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like, oh, I think that's really a cool and creative way to loop
15:24
everybody in on a little bit of responsibility to that.
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But also so worth their while, you know, and I that kind of
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goes along with what you're saying too, like, Oh, that's a
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really cool and creative way in my mind where that's get
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continuing that they have to do regardless if they want to stay
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licensed, they have to it's a way for them to also give back.
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You know, they can do it in their local community.
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And so I thought that that was really cool kind of going a
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little side note on, on the spay and neuter thing, but I agree,
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it is expensive. And that's no shade on why it's
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expensive. I get it.
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I am lucky enough that I am in a 2 income household.
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And that and, and keep in mind, Trin spay came up as a surprise.
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We were not prepared for that, right, because we went through
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behavioral issues with her. So I made a split second
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decision to say, shit, I'm, I'm going to spay her right now.
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And so I literally made that appointment on a Saturday for
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her to be spayed on on Monday. And I feel very fortunate that
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that was OK for us, right? But that's not the reality for a
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lot of people. And that sucks.
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And there's also a lot of education in that goes along
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with all of it, too, for people to understand.
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I just had a conversation with someone who works in veterinary
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medicine and someone came in and had their personal dog, had a
16:56
litter of puppies. And there was one that was not
16:58
thriving. And they were having a open,
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very open, educating conversation.
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And the woman said, well, you know, I was told, always told
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that a female dog, it's healthier for them to have one
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litter. No, stop spreading that these.
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Things are still there, right? And so and she got an education
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and was told that's an old wives tale that is not accurate.
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Don't know. Stop saying that right.
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So there's there's all these elements of education that go in
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as well. And thankfully that woman was
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open to being educated and she said this was a ton of work.
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I don't ever want to do this again.
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I am spaying her. Yeah, because if every female
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dog needed to have a litter of puppies to be held.
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Have mercy you. Guys like that's a lot of
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puppies are not needed or wanted.
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Yeah, and I do. Remember when I got Lucy that
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she like had clearly had a litter of puppies before and she
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was pregnant and then they spayed her and found out she was
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pregnant? Martian did her her pregnancy.
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But somebody told me. I remember someone told me.
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Well, I'm glad she had a chance to be a mother before they
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spayed her. And I'm like, why?
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Like why? I don't know who.
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What's that about? Yeah.
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So those those wife's tales. They're still here.
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Loud. And proud they're still here.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I think for, I mean, I don't think anyone's surprised to hear
18:31
that I am against mandatory spay and neuter.
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I obviously want to be able to make my own educated choices for
18:39
my personal dogs. I pay to feed them and pay to
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house them and all of the things that go along with that.
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And I would like to make the choices for their bodies, but a
18:50
piece of it too. For me, I actually do things
18:55
with my dogs and I want them to be fully mature and fully
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developed. And I want to make a choice
19:02
based on their breed and their structure.
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When that is. And I don't want an arbitrary
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law to tell me, oh, I don't care how big or small your dog is at
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six months they will be spayed or neutered, you know, or
19:18
whatever that might be. So I take issue from a health
19:21
standpoint big time because I want my dogs to have the benefit
19:27
of being fully developed, if that is at all possible.
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That, you know, obviously if I'm in the dictator, we adopted him
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at 15 months. He was already neutered.
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That's totally fine that I have no issue with that.
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We're not saying that animals from rescue should not come
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being neutered. I I will die on that like you
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should. I think there's opportunities
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where it can be done responsibly, but Christy and I
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are not going to fight about that right now.
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We're not going down that fucking Rd.
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I I don't agree with you, but we're not going to fight about
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that right now. Off you go.
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It's bullshit though, how come fucking Europe and everyone
20:07
else, they have intact dogs and they're totally fine and we're
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not fucking responsible enough to do it.
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I know, but some people are. I adopted cash and he was intact
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and I never fucking reproduced him.
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From an irresponsible rescue. Fair, but who didn't?
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Know you were. Responsible enough to hire him.
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There are rescues out there that are doing spay and neuter
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contracts and they're doing it successfully.
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OK. Yeah, that's true, and I do
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agree with. That obviously if I'm, if I'm
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adopting a dog, I am expecting that they will be spayed or
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neutered before I am adopting them.
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That is, that is most likely what is going to happen and that
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is, I mean, all of my girls were spayed before we got them.
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So but I'm talking about dogs that I'm going and purchasing
20:59
somewhere. The the spay and neuter rescue
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shelter conversation is a whole nother day that Christy doesn't
21:06
want to have ever come. So that's fine.
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But I also just really feel very strongly as well that my dogs
21:16
are my dogs. And I don't think that somebody
21:20
should be able to tell me what to do with them.
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But then I say on the flip side of that, well, rabies is a
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public health issue. Is, is overpopulation a public
21:30
health issue? Like I'm literally devil's
21:33
advocating myself. Yeah, yeah.
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I don't I don't know if the. That's probably bad wording,
21:39
but. It's yeah, it's a hard.
21:42
That's a hard because your kids are your kids, but the
21:45
government tells you you can't them, you can't approve them.
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Like, yes, like, that's great. Let's keep that law.
21:53
Yeah. Like, you know.
21:56
Yes, yes, yeah, I think it was very, it's very interesting
22:01
because I brought this whole thing up to a vet and her and I
22:07
were having a very interesting conversation.
22:09
She is pro breed, responsible, ethical breeding.
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And so I was asking, hey, do you, we were sort of saying if,
22:23
if there was some sort of licensing, some sort of way to
22:29
track who's breeding and, and what are they breeding?
22:34
I, it's such a slippery slope to put more regulations and more
22:38
laws on the books. I know, I know.
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But we were having like this hypothetical conversation
22:44
because of this whole thing. And we were like, OK, is there a
22:48
world where if you are our responsible ethical breeder, you
22:54
are required to get a kennel license, just a kennel license
23:00
and say this is who, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm
23:03
breeding. And you were then required to
23:10
keep microchip records of everything that you were
23:12
reproduce, required to microchip everything you reproduce,
23:16
required to put yourself and the owner of said animals that you
23:20
produce. And then the flip side of that,
23:24
whatever however that all played out, say that you are a person
23:30
who does not have a kennel license and is quote UN quote
23:33
backyard breeding comes into a vet clinic and the vet says what
23:39
is your kennel license number? And then if you do not have
23:43
that, you are fined significantly and, and a first
23:49
offense situation. And then the flip side of that,
23:55
if you are a buyer of a puppy and you come in and the, let's
24:01
just say it, the puppy has parvo and you're like, oh, I bought
24:05
this puppy off Craigslist. And the vet says, do you have
24:09
the kennel license number? Then you as a buyer can also be
24:13
fined if you don't have that information.
24:16
So it puts onus on both sides. And I asked, I said, would you
24:20
as a vet want to have that responsibility?
24:24
Would you feel comfortable? And she was like absolutely
24:26
100%. OK so I disagree with you
24:30
because I 100% believe that pushes people like when they're
24:34
having an emergency to not go to their trusted vet.
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I said that too. Because they're going to get
24:41
fined, they're going to, they don't, they don't trust the vet
24:45
not to report them. They all the things I think it
24:50
is not in the best interest of the docs.
24:52
Also think when we talk about having a kennel license, our
24:59
massive breeding production like puppy mills.
25:02
Yeah, most of them have licenses from the government.
25:07
And that's an. Enforcement problem maintained.
25:09
It's. Not it's an enforcement problem,
25:11
Yep. Right.
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So I don't trust that the government is responsibly giving
25:17
out licenses. So then I believe that we're
25:20
still in the, there's no enforcement now we're pushing
25:24
people away from going to their vet when they really need to get
25:27
to their vet. And we haven't solved any of the
25:31
problems. We've just put another layer of
25:34
laws that can't be enforced. So I brought up the barrier to
25:39
like taking their animals to the vet situation as well.
25:43
And the pushback was most of the people that they, they already
25:48
have barriers to not go to the vet anyway.
25:51
Like you're you're not. They're already not doing what
25:55
they need to be doing. So then if, if there's already a
25:58
barrier and they're not going to bring their dog in anyway, why
26:02
would we put another restriction on them?
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Because you're saying don't worry, that's not going to be a
26:11
problem because they're not going to bring their dog to the
26:14
vet. But.
26:15
But you said in the beginning, we we can't be afraid to put
26:19
laws just because, right? No, there's no enforcement and
26:25
whatever. Right.
26:28
But you're saying like we should put a law on them that could
26:32
potentially create barriers, but because they already have
26:35
barriers, it's not going to put barriers on them.
26:38
Do you see? Like, so I said the exact same
26:40
thing. I was like, wasn't that going to
26:42
stop people from them being afraid of taking their animals
26:45
to the vet? And she was like, but they're
26:49
not giving proper care. Regardless if there's a law or
26:53
not, they're they're not doing what they're supposed to do.
26:57
So we can't be afraid to try to stop them from for future
27:01
litters, future dogs, future everything out of fear that the.
27:07
Point of hoping and putting the lawn there for them if it's not
27:12
going to make any difference anyway.
27:14
Well, no, because it's about the people who do care and come in
27:19
and bring their dogs for care that the potential for being
27:23
fined will make them like it's not worth it to them to breed
27:26
anymore. It's not worth.
27:28
It because they. Can get in trouble and have to
27:31
pay and like what they have to pay isn't worth what they make
27:36
like it just makes it harder. It's another barrier to so that
27:40
people are annoyed about going through the process of breeding
27:46
and and having more puppies like it's just annoying.
27:50
What's your? Idea.
27:52
Do you have any open idea? No ideas, No, because.
27:58
Honestly, my idea is realistically there has to be
28:04
more programs that are accessible to people who need
28:08
them and are willing to take advantage of them.
28:11
And even in maybe areas that well, let me back up.
28:17
So I think a lot of programs there's there are a lot of
28:20
programs, but a lot of them are only for pit bulls or Chihuahuas
28:24
or they're only in really poor areas, economically challenged
28:31
areas. But I think we're probably
28:37
there's a need for those in other areas as well.
28:41
I know I have a family member who lives in a nice community.
28:46
However, she does not have a lot of money, hardly any money and
28:53
for her to spay or spay or neuter her animal is really it
28:59
wasn't really financially difficult.
29:02
When I looked for programs for her, they were She's also
29:07
elderly so it's it's going to be she can't drive.
29:11
Far. Yeah.
29:13
And it was going to be, you know, an hour drive to any
29:16
clinic that would provide a reduced fee or a free spay or
29:21
neuter. And I didn't feel comfortable
29:24
for a variety of reasons, taking her dog from her to do this for
29:28
her. So then I'm like, man, there's
29:31
no, there's no resources her and out her way because that's
29:36
considered not an economically challenged area, even though I I
29:43
think there's a lot of households, especially right
29:45
now, there's a lot of households who are economically challenged.
29:50
Yeah. In areas that maybe you.
29:53
Wouldn't expect. You wouldn't expect, Yeah.
29:55
And for your family member, if mandatory spay and neuter were
30:00
on the books, it would be extremely challenging for them
30:04
to figure out how to get that done and would then be in breach
30:09
of the law, you know, which is really difficult on many levels.
30:15
We go back to what if her dog gets sick and needs to go to the
30:20
vet? Well now she's like what now?
30:21
I can't because she would need to be spayed or neutered and I
30:25
could be fined or I could get in trouble or they could take my
30:28
dog for not having this. But now my dog's sick and guess
30:32
what? This dog is not going to get
30:34
pregnant because this dog does not leave her.
30:39
It's a bit of goraphobic at this point, like so you know, and she
30:46
did get the dog spayed, but it was, it was a hardship.
30:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's really hard.
30:52
I completely. Can I just say one other thing?
30:56
Yes, I know the devil's advocate is going to say maybe your
30:59
family member shouldn't have a dog then.
31:02
And maybe you're right. I mean, I made the same argument
31:06
when she got a dog. However, as a single person,
31:11
she, the amount of comfort that dog brings her is immense.
31:18
And I don't, I don't think it's fair for us to make us blanket
31:22
statement that says like, if you, if you don't have, if
31:27
you're not financially secure, you don't get to have a pet, You
31:30
don't get to have that comfort or love in your life.
31:33
And I it's a sensitive topic 'cause I do see both sides, but
31:37
I just, I know that somebody out there is thinking, well maybe
31:41
she just shouldn't have it then. But there's more to it than just
31:45
rich people get dogs and poor people don't. 100% totally agree
31:50
and I agree with you that there are plenty of people out there
31:55
that their animals are the only thing they have and it's keeping
32:00
them alive. So I'm with you.
32:03
I also think obviously not just anyone wants to have an intact
32:09
animal. It I liken it to not just
32:13
everyone should have a Rottweiler.
32:16
Like I really think that the average person is not signing up
32:23
to deal with a bitching season every six to nine months.
32:28
It's a pain in the ass. It really sucks.
32:31
I so when I say that I am against mandatory spay and
32:36
neuter, that doesn't mean that I think that there should just be
32:39
intact animals running around everywhere and breeding and
32:44
doing whatever. I think that there should be the
32:50
possibility for me to make the correct decisions for the
32:53
animals in my home that I own and that there has to be a
32:58
better way to educate and provide resources so that people
33:04
can also do the right quote UN quote, right thing.
33:08
Here we go. The best thing for their home,
33:12
their animals, but then also society, right?
33:15
So we do have to look about, think about big picture.
33:19
We have to think about safety. We have to think about our
33:23
communities, we have to think about our shelter populations,
33:28
all of that stuff. But at the end of the day, I pay
33:31
my mortgage, I pay my dogs food, I do all these things.
33:36
And so I just, I'm like, I just don't subscribe to that.
33:39
And I don't think that it is the way to solve all the world's
33:43
animal problems. Right.
33:45
Yeah. And I, I think we're both in
33:48
agreement. We we wish there were a lot less
33:51
dogs being produced. 100%. And we wish that the shelters
33:56
weren't full because the shelters have lots of puppies as
34:00
well as old dogs and and everything in between.
34:03
But I don't, I wouldn't say mandatory spay and neuter.
34:07
I would say spay and neuter is very helpful.
34:10
Mandatory spay and neuter I don't, I wouldn't agree with.
34:14
But yeah. Yeah.
34:15
I think for me it's about, you know, it's the indiscriminate
34:20
breeding, right? It's the indiscriminate
34:22
production of animals that is the the critical piece of it.
34:27
Because when we the indiscriminate breeding can not
34:34
always, but can also because we have Jackson, we have Tater, we
34:39
have Layla, we have right. We have a lot of examples of
34:42
super solid dogs who had were indiscriminately bred.
34:46
But I think that typically indiscriminately breeding dogs
34:54
when we are just throwing two dogs together with reckless
34:57
abandoned to for whatever reason, because we want Mama to
35:02
be able to be a Mama. I don't know, like all the
35:05
reasons that people do it. I think that the potential for
35:09
things to go South and those animals to end up in the shelter
35:14
is higher than someone who is a breeder like Tran Tran's
35:18
breeder, you know, a breeder like Tiago's breeder.
35:21
That's just reality. And so there are other routes
35:26
that I think that we can take to curb the overpopulation problem,
35:33
to make sure that the horrific things that happened at
35:37
Miranda's rescue never happened again or happened less because
35:41
unfortunately it will happen again and it is happening again.
35:44
I think that there are just other things that we can do to
35:47
to to try to turn the tides. Yeah, there's some some gaps in
35:55
knowledge on the rescue end and I also think there's gaps on in
35:59
knowledge in the breeder end of what rescue is going through
36:03
too. But I think before we make these
36:06
laws that affect literally everyone who has a dog, that we
36:12
have to have a meeting of the minds and like I come together
36:17
to understand, we got to be honest about what gaps we have
36:20
in our own knowledge and what we would need to know to make an
36:24
educated decision. I think that's fair.
36:28
Yeah. I think that's why we continue
36:30
to talk about it ad nauseam. Yeah.
36:34
I mean, really about, I feel like the, the overwhelming theme
36:40
of, of our podcast is your relationship with your dog and
36:45
somehow, some way, all of the different facets of breeder,
36:51
breeders, rescue, blah, blah, blah, somewhere meeting in the
36:55
middle for the good of the dogs. And, and how do we do that?
36:59
And it's why we continue to talk the way we do, because if one
37:03
person can just shift a little bit, shift just a little bit, it
37:08
can, it can make a big difference.
37:10
And that I think this is our way of, of trying to educate our way
37:17
of trying to get word out about different perspectives.
37:23
And we're not afraid to argue a little bit back and forth and
37:27
make faces at each other because we do come from very different,
37:30
different places and, and are willing to push back on each
37:34
other. And if that, if somebody's
37:36
willing to listen to us go on for 30 minutes and it just puts
37:41
a little kernel in their mind to think about maybe I should think
37:44
about that a little bit, I'm happy.
37:48
Yeah, I think, yeah, if we can create, I think we've really as
37:52
a nation gotten away from a spirit of curiosity to
37:56
understand other somebody else's point of view.
38:00
And I think it would serve us well to be curious about what on
38:03
the rescue side, what breeders are doing and why they are so
38:07
passionate about their what they're breeding.
38:10
But then also on the breeding side, why rescue people are so
38:14
passionate about trying to clear the shelters and what they're?
38:18
Struggling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:23
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38:35
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38:38
Bye bye.