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Creating the Continental Army: Civil-Military Relations in the 1700s · Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 250 Years of the Declaration of Independence

• 0:08
  Speaker 0: He has kept among us in times of peace, standing armies without the consent our legislatures.
• 0:14
  Speaker 0: He is affected to render the military independent and superior too this civil power.
• 0:20
  Speaker 0: He has abdicated government here by declaring out his protection and waging war against us.
• 0:26
  Speaker 0: He's plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts burned our towns destroyed lives for
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: people.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness a podcast commemorating The Two Hundred Fifty Year Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: This show is sponsored by the American Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Sola!
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: The men fighting on the Patriots side during the War of Independence were in something Of an uncomfortable position regarding their enemies... ...and same can be said for those who are fighting On British Side.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Perhaps the strangest thing for soldiers fighting each other in seventeen seventy-six would have been that they were fighting against men who are once their allies.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Men, who by and large shared the same language...the same history The Same Culture And The Same Military Traditions.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: In this series we often described American Revolution as First American Civil War But today we are going to concentrate on the relationships between officers and soldiers in The British Army, And those in the Continental army.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Men who found themselves at war with their friends With their colleagues...and with their brethren.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So what did British Officers think about Their American counterparts?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Many of whom like George Washington had served In wars alongside British troops?
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Why did Americans who hated professional armies, who hated standing armies end up creating their own standing army?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: How did the Continental Army balance military traditions with professionalization?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: What role did discipline contracts desertion and mutiny play in shaping both armies?
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: how Did The Continental army force Americans to rethink the relationship between military and civil power?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: In what ways was the Continental Army both European and American in character?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: And maybe we'll talk a little bit about the treatment of prisoners-of-war, ...and the prevalence of war crimes...in The War for Independence.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Here with me today to explore the complicated histories of the British army AND the continental army is Dr John Chandler.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Welcome John!
• 2:43
  Speaker 0: Hiya how are you?
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Very good thanks for being here.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: John Chandler is associate professor at University College London where he teaches and researches the American Revolution, The History of War And the Political Cultures Of the Eighteenth Century British Atlantic World.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: His scholarship examines the creation of Continental Army The dynamics of civil military power in the revolutionary period And ways Americans envisioned their emerging republic on a continental scale.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: He has published on topics including desertion, military discipline British-American military relations and the ideological significance of the continental in revolutionary political discourse.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And he is the author of War, Patriotism & Identity In Revolutionary North America.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: A link is in show notes.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: So John let's start by working through those grievances.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: The grievances against King George are broadly separated into three groups and the final five grievances, the last two which you read aren't ones that they wrote after the start of hostilities at Lexington & Concord in seventeen seventy-five.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So let's just start with those first two that you read though...the pre conflict one.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: so before war breaks out Grievance XI is he has kept among us standing armies without our consent, and then he has effected to render the military independent of in superior to the civil power.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: So why don't we just start by looking at these pre-conflict grievances?
• 4:22
  Speaker 0: Yeah I chose all four politics because i think taken together they show this idea that Americans have this complicated relationship with their military both before and after sort Lexington Concorde before and after the Declaration of Independence.
• 4:34
  Speaker 0: And you're kind of with these four passages, just seeing a little bit some of the evolution of that.
• 4:39
  Speaker 0: The first two is this focus on standing armies, the focus on consent, the focused relationship between military in civil power I think goes to sort of the heart of the issue which we'll be talking about today around the creation of the Continental Army how it plays out.
• 5:00
  Speaker 0: British Americans and Britons in Britain had this long ideological fear of standing armies, this fear of Standing Armies as an instrument of tyranny and oppression.
• 5:10
  Speaker 0: And this is something historians talk about the English-Weak tradition which has its roots going way back to classical republicanism.
• 5:18
  Speaker 0: but then there's sort of English Atlantic context really goes through the English Civil War...and that a fear of The Standing Armys The Stuart Monarchs charged the first and the oppression that was caused.
• 5:28
  Speaker 0: And, that narrative around standing armies being this kind of instrument of arbitrary power again feeds right through to the seventeenth century in the Glorious Revolution then onwards into the eighteenth century.
• 5:37
  Speaker 0: so it's something which really underpins political thought on both sides at the
• 5:41
  Speaker 0: Atlantic.".
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: And if I can just give a basic point here too remind our audience?
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: The problem with the Standing Army is typically Historically speaking, the tradition was you would raise an army when you were at war and then it would be disbanded.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: But if you have a professional standing army and your not-at-war well what is going to do?
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Well its probably gonna be tool of those in power who oppress people they don't like.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: hence you gotta disband this standing army
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: right?".
• 6:09
  Speaker 0: Yeah!
• 6:10
  Speaker 0: It's his idea that sort of professional soldiers are instruments whoever he is in command of that ultimately whoever pays their bill and that these soldiers can then be used as a force to impose the will of whoever's in power, in peacetime in particular.
• 6:24
  Speaker 0: So this idea that the army could kind-of turned against its own subjects... And has the English experience at The Civil War with Charles I?
• 6:30
  Speaker 0: As well on his idea that their king can turn his army against him!
• 6:34
  Speaker 0: If you want to go through the Glorious Revolution which is again in the six eighty eight big important moment Again we have sort of an idea of William III coming over with A Big Standing Army.
• 6:47
  Speaker 0: deal with this standing army.
• 6:49
  Speaker 0: And the British sort of solution to this problem is try and keep the Standing Army small, kind of reduced in peacetime.
• 6:57
  Speaker 0: Try and keep it outside a Britain so put it an island
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: So kinda
• 7:02
  Speaker 0: out of sight out-of mind major conflicts in this period, and the eighteenth century into the American evolution as well.
• 7:08
  Speaker 0: Relying a lot on European allies and mercenaries... And also Allies of Mercenaries in North America as well, Indigenous allies and Mercenaires as well.
• 7:17
  Speaker 0: So Britain has this model of trying not to rely upon an outstanding army because there is idea for the fear of tyranny.
• 7:26
  Speaker 0: But that's something which Americans have shared intellectual tradition with.
• 7:30
  Speaker 0: And so the American feeling is very much that a standing army isn't an enemy to their potential freedom, liberties.
• 7:37
  Speaker 0: They're rights of their legislators.
• 7:39
  Speaker 0: and it's this decision Britain takes.
• 7:42
  Speaker 0: just put a standing Army in North America on the aftermath The Seven Years War in seventeen sixty-three which I would argue is very consistent with British policy.
• 7:50
  Speaker 0: they do the same.
• 7:50
  Speaker 0: they've put a Standing Army in Ireland after the Glorious Revolution if at the Standing Army north America as we are keeping out of Britain outside our mind but inflames these already kind of long-standing ideas.
• 8:04
  Speaker 0: And it doesn't help that generally wherever British troops go, or just whatever any professional soldiers in the eighteen century ago friction
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: happens...
• 8:11
  Speaker 0: It happens in North America!
• 8:12
  Speaker 0: The armies initially stationed in New York and there's friction there in their sort of seventies sixties.
• 8:17
  Speaker 0: they're later on moved to Boston where friction follows ultimately culminating at the Boston massacre in seventeen seventy lots of frictions between the army and local populace that have these political consequences.
• 8:33
  Speaker 0: Those first two lines are mainly thinking about what's happened in Boston, whereby by the time a declaration has been written... The entire British Army is stationed in Boston.
• 8:43
  Speaker 0: You know you've got ten thousand men in this city That not much bigger than that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 0: So it's huge population Of soldiers Part of problem.
• 8:52
  Speaker 0: when they're not on duty They're allowed to moonlight other jobs, so they undercut local workers in Boston.
• 8:59
  Speaker 0: So kind of there's an economic run location... They form relationships with the local people and which again can annoy local men.
• 9:06
  Speaker 0: if these soldiers have come in and formed a relationship with their wives or daughters or sisters And then also the governor, by seventeen seventy four it's starting to use this army as a sort of tool to execute Britain's policies.
• 9:23
  Speaker 0: To enforce its tax policies in Boston specifically which is why seventeen seventy-four has become that the heat...the center point of American resistance.
• 9:32
  Speaker 0: and so this idea of essentially the military being used by in this case Thomas Gage the Governor of Massachusetts at this point as a tool of arbitrary power, and it kind speaks to this long-standing history going back the English Civil War but also to sort of lived experience for Americans in Boston
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: right there.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: And then... Yeah I mean its almost like self fulfilling prophecy – This Long Tradition Of Not Liking Standing Armies.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Well Then A Standing Armie Appears In Boston.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: People Who Hate It Already Are Saying See Look What The Standing Army Does!
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: That Takes Us To Grievance XII he has affected to render the military independent of and superior to the civil power.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: so can you just explain that a little bit more to me.
• 10:19
  Speaker 0: So i think in this context it kind gets there again one of these issues in the seventeen sixties that the americans are particularly angry about which is the status of their colonial assemblies vis-a-vis the british parliament.
• 10:31
  Speaker 0: as far Britain is concerned, their military does remain subservient to the legislatures because it remains subservent to British...the British parliament.
• 10:39
  Speaker 0: So you know Thomas Gage in Boston is appointed by Parliament and the officers of the army are appointed by parliaments.
• 10:46
  Speaker 0: so they are operating according to underneath British law.
• 10:49
  Speaker 0: The issue that Americans have Is That Does Not Include The Colonial Assemblies To The Americans In Boston, in the colonies do not actually have any say over what this Army can do beyond kind of petitioning to the crown, petitioned parliament.
• 11:04
  Speaker 0: And again there's it going much earlier than sort.
• 11:07
  Speaker 0: you know even the flashpoint in The American Revolution.
• 11:09
  Speaker 0: but when the armies are New York and the seventeen sixties there's tensions between army and civil power there with the um the army kind of issues around quartering
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: occupying
• 11:20
  Speaker 0: private buildings, and that the people of New York both find very upset about it but don't really have any solution to this problem.
• 11:26
  Speaker 0: And then obviously later in Boston by the time you get the aftermath of the Boston Massacre or the Boston Tea Party The Army is kind-of operating without a great deal of civilian oversight from the People Of Boston.
• 11:37
  Speaker 0: So there's an idea actually that the Civil Power which in the colonies Is the colonial legislatures Do not Have Any Say Over what the British army is, so it's becoming to them a foreign force.
• 11:50
  Speaker 0: What they would see as their military power are sort of state troops or colonial militias which are things that are kind of responsibility for the Colonial Assembly.
• 11:58
  Speaker 0: That particular phrase is setting up this idea that the British Army in particular is a foreign imposing force.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and let us now just unpack.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: the colonies had organized their armies, well it was militias.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Militias would be summoned and militias were raised to fight with the regulars say in The Seven Years' War.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: but local towns and villages and civil societies deciding together we are going to muster a militia right?
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And the militia will go and fight alongside the British British-native allies against the French and the French allies or the Spanish, or whomever.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So why don't you just unpack that kind of relationship between The Colonial Militias and then the British army in their history and sort of relationships together?
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: And we'll get into Continental Army – the professional
• 12:54
  Speaker 0: one!
• 12:54
  Speaker 0: Yeah I mean the militia is actually really interesting quite…the Americans are quite a complicated relationship with their militia as i think Americans do today.
• 13:03
  Speaker 0: The idea in their sort of collective history is that the militia has been a fundamental part, American history going back to the founding of the colonies and the seventeenth century.
• 13:11
  Speaker 0: And this again it has its roots in classical republicanism and the idea that any good republicans city-state draws on its own citizens to raise an arms to protect that particular state.
• 13:23
  Speaker 0: So the Americans in their early conflicts in the seventeenth century particularly... ...and into the eighteenth century would think about kind Fighting wars against Native Americans as well.
• 13:35
  Speaker 0: There's other Wars against the imperial powers at that point and The militia in these war served function of able-bodied men having training together In their local communities have been organized together, then when necessary being Organized go into bigger conflicts.
• 13:51
  Speaker 0: And that does happen Into the eighteenth century.
• 13:53
  Speaker 0: in a seven years War you is which was the American's kind most recent example of conflicts?
• 13:57
  Speaker 0: You have this kind of I guess kind of intersection between lots of different types of fighting forces in North America, where you have the British army by this point becomes a relatively important force.
• 14:10
  Speaker 0: In North America they're regular soldiers.
• 14:11
  Speaker 0: but you also have these local militias who kind of work relatively small-scale with their local communities and certainly as warm.
• 14:18
  Speaker 0: much of the fighting is in New England borderlands as well as Pennsylvania and Virginia backcountry.
• 14:23
  Speaker 0: so you have them militia fighting stuff within that community's then raising regiments as well to fight as provincial regiments, so on a more regular setting.
• 14:35
  Speaker 0: and these are the regiments who kind of intended to fight more alongside the British army on excursions into Canada.
• 14:39
  Speaker 0: And those overlap with militia.
• 14:43
  Speaker 0: people fighting in the militia might become move into this sort of state regiments and then fight along side the British leg regulars.
• 14:50
  Speaker 0: there's a couple major expeditions overseas.
• 14:53
  Speaker 0: one is The Siege of Louisburg which kind of Nova Scotia off Canada.
• 14:57
  Speaker 0: and then there's another excursion to Cuba which these New England men, mainly from New England.
• 15:03
  Speaker 0: These men who are militiamen but then get organised into the state regiments alongside a regular army so that it has different patterns on what the militias do.
• 15:11
  Speaker 0: And also they have quite local function.
• 15:13
  Speaker 0: The militia is essentially their police force.
• 15:16
  Speaker 0: You don't have an organised police force.
• 15:18
  Speaker 0: if you need someone go and arrest something or when problems happen at home call out the police force The
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: angry drunks at the tavern?
• 15:28
  Speaker 0: Exactly.
• 15:28
  Speaker 0: And then further south, they increasingly have a role in policing slavery and that function.
• 15:35
  Speaker 0: so actually the militia kind of has quite complicated history.
• 15:40
  Speaker 0: actually it has lots different functions people who had different relationships to them.
• 15:44
  Speaker 0: because although again there's this idea that in the Seven Years War the Americans have an idea that their militia formed really important function but also the militias wasn't necessarily that representative society.
• 15:54
  Speaker 0: People weren't always that keen to kind of enlist in it and had sometimes be persuaded.
• 16:01
  Speaker 0: In the aftermath, really of The Boston Tea Party.
• 16:03
  Speaker 0: So it's very quite in immediate two years before the Declaration is when war seems like its coming and Americans make a conscious effort to try and revive the militia Revive some of these training schemes which actually had remained dormant collect weapons ensure that they have stockpile of weapons available as well.
• 16:23
  Speaker 0: so Although there's this kind of long history of the militia, it was really only in sort from about seventeen seventy-four that the militias started getting back together again across the colonies.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: But I want to go back into The Seven Years War because aftermaths have a different viewpoint on the professional.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: British soldiers claimed credit for the victory.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Whereas people like George Washington and the colonial regiments in militias were, well, the professionals on The British Army liked to claim all of this but we are actually the ones that should get it.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: so already they fought together.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: there's already some tension forming about who gets to take credit for the victory.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: And I just want to pause here and maybe think about Washington's experience, because he becomes the commander-in-chief of course!
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: He was fighting as an officer in the Virginia Regiment or the Virginia Militia?
• 17:28
  Speaker 0: Yeah...he is a Virginia militia officer Yeah.
• 17:31
  Speaker 0: And then he fought alongside the British in seventeen seventy five
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: as an
• 17:36
  Speaker 0: ADCAM at the Battle of Monongahela where The British Regiment was wiped out and the British General Braddock.
• 17:42
  Speaker 0: Seventeen
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: sixty-five?
• 17:45
  Speaker 0: Fifty-five.
• 17:46
  Speaker 0: Washington is very, very young early in the seventies while Washington kind of...is there this major defeat?
• 17:53
  Speaker 0: but the British are all but wiped out.
• 17:55
  Speaker 0: Washington survives, Washington is credited with mounting a successful rearguard action after the general was killed and he's sort of there in their front line.
• 18:02
  Speaker 0: so... Washington isn't an interesting kind-of example because it doesn't encapsulate some these issues you're talking about where that relationship between British soldiers and British officers are often quite strained on both sides.
• 18:15
  Speaker 0: The British basically looked down at Americans as untrained not trained what they considered to be the mode of contemporary warfare which is largely based around manoeuvring, sort of the etiquette of siege warfare in particular.
• 18:30
  Speaker 0: The etiquette kind of how you move an army around and it's quite complex.
• 18:34
  Speaker 0: at this point particularly British soldiers are trained with muskets much as training involves how to stand under fire reload quickly and fire back quite quickly then charge with musket.
• 18:48
  Speaker 0: that system technology of the day which these muskets in and off themselves aren't particularly good weapons, they're very inaccurate and slow.
• 18:57
  Speaker 0: but if you have a bunch of them together and you can
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: kind of fire
• 19:00
  Speaker 0: or mass-together that come to become more effective.
• 19:02
  Speaker 0: And then again a bayonet charge can be quite an effective blunt instrument.
• 19:05
  Speaker 0: it could do some serious damage!
• 19:07
  Speaker 0: That's how European arm warfare is designed based around that and their log size cannons warfare as well on The British.
• 19:16
  Speaker 0: That's how they're trained to operate, and even though it... They do have some training in irregular warfare.
• 19:21
  Speaker 0: And sort of know a little bit about how to do that.
• 19:24
  Speaker 0: There is this in the Seven Years War The idea was that the British are coming over with an aimed prosecutor war as they would in Europe for various reasons Probably quite sensible reasons as keen to operate in that way and pursue more of a regular mode warfare less organization partly because the British professional mode does require training, it requires discipline.
• 19:47
  Speaker 0: You're essentially telling soldiers stand on fire which is not something you come naturally.
• 19:51
  Speaker 0: so it requires kind of system command structure and quite rigid discipline that happen, which again is not something the Americans have because they don't have the same sort of training and organization.
• 20:07
  Speaker 0: So there's a kind of strategic clash as well whether but the Americans are seen by their Britishers being not-as good soldiers.
• 20:16
  Speaker 0: You see it in a lot of the British diary entries and letters, with the British officers complaining about how cowardly American soldiers are because they won't stand under fire for example.
• 20:25
  Speaker 0: And Americans see these British as quite arrogant and rude... The experience that these American soldiers who fight along this British is not particularly good.
• 20:33
  Speaker 0: Particularly those who go into these kind of excursions abroad.
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: so the ones taking to Louisbourg Canada or Cuba, and the American soldiers sometimes use this can photo.
• 20:44
  Speaker 0: Sometimes they're British see them as kind of not being really worth very much And they suffer quite heavy losses particularly in cuba.
• 20:50
  Speaker 0: these american soldiers again mostly from new england suffered Really badly from disease.
• 20:54
  Speaker 0: so there's a sense yeah They don't actually have a particular fond to view with each other?
• 20:58
  Speaker 0: So then immediately after the Malthus Seven Years War you Have Pontiacs war which is This Indian Rebellion In The West and the british Again.
• 21:05
  Speaker 0: See That As A Really Big Example Of American Incompetence that Americans essentially allow this rebellion to happen and don't do anything, actually put it down.
• 21:14
  Speaker 0: And that requires British troops ultimately suppress the Indian
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: revolt.
• 21:20
  Speaker 0: So its a combination of these kind things.
• 21:22
  Speaker 0: alongside the fact they see that the civil power in American colonies haven't also been particularly helpful from their perspective for prosecuting this war.
• 21:31
  Speaker 0: They've seen the colonies as being quite slow to respond The threat form French Canada to raise troops and they see them as not willing to ways, raise troops unless the British foot the bill.
• 21:45
  Speaker 0: So The American Assembly is aren't don't on the whole kind of prosecute war in a way that British are expected whereas Americans has he said have the opposite view with anything but They say themselves being key partners In this war effort.
• 21:58
  Speaker 0: And
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: just add another thing the British wanted Of course infrastructure To be built to support their Action.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: so the building of roads, the widening of roads and all this stuff.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: And while you need to have people workers doing that... ...and they need to be paid in.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: So the question is who's going to do it?
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Well You want this road to move your cannons but no one's gonna build their own.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: so then got a problem here.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I'm just very quickly.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: what was your assessment of these opposing views?
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Just as a historian, I mean usually we say just there's a little bit of truth on both sides.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: But quickly what do you think about these criticisms?
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Of each other in the pre-revolutionary war period?
• 22:41
  Speaker 0: Yeah so i think it is that this truth to both sides.
• 22:44
  Speaker 0: The americans aren't right to thing.
• 22:47
  Speaker 0: they made an important contribution To their victory in the seven years war.
• 22:50
  Speaker 0: The british could not have won without them Without the contributions of american troops or the contributions American logistical support As well.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: but
• 22:58
  Speaker 0: The British are also right that the Americans didn't make as big a contribution.
• 23:01
  Speaker 0: They thought they were, the British Navy in particular made huge contributions to that victory.
• 23:06
  Speaker 0: and but also the British on their ground.
• 23:08
  Speaker 0: And then some senses even though there's much disagreement at the time about whether British tactics or American tactics was sort of successful ones ultimately British tactics although these early defeats in war with successful British base Britain basically won through weight numbers and kind of huge assaults on French Canada.
• 23:27
  Speaker 0: But the interesting issue is essentially that, to me shows this kind of polarisation in different views about what it means to be part of British Empire and British at this point.
• 23:37
  Speaker 0: The British have got ingrained into their psyche.
• 23:40
  Speaker 0: they are the ones who won this war and Americans were basically useless Belief that absolute core belief which underpins the British decision to station ten thousand troops in America and ultimately attacks The Americans in order to pay for that army.
• 23:55
  Speaker 0: And That is unwavering pretty much.
• 23:57
  Speaker 0: throughout the seventeen sixties every everyone in Britain, I mean British British political thought agrees that this ten thousand men is necessary, and then it just becomes a question of how do you pay for that?
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: And then you kind of get into discussion about which taxes are relevant or which aren't.
• 24:12
  Speaker 0: In America they do not agree that these Ten Thousand Men Is Necessary because they believe they are able to defend themselves!
• 24:20
  Speaker 0: It comes again back to the polarised memory what The Seven Years War was all about... Because they can't agree on what They Think The Seven years war Was About.
• 24:29
  Speaker 0: That Kind Of Underpins all these other problems afterwards is how I see it.
• 24:34
  Speaker 0: So in some ways, the idea was we should push a little bit further on to How are people remembering The Seven Years
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: War?
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: It's a battle of controlling the historical narrative, which is indeed what we are doing today talking about The Declaration Of Independence two hundred fifty years ago.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: and there people who have different narratives they want to tell About it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And sometimes they agree even oftentimes They don't.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: and so I think it's really important To think of at least in this military context The run-up to the American Revolution as being a battle over historical narrative of who's more responsible for winning the Great Victory Over the French.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: That is really useful framework to understand all this history.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, but I do want to move towards now...the outbreak of hostilities Lexington and Concord.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And then we have the Continental Army formed before or after Lexington & Concorde
• 25:31
  Speaker 0: After Lexington and Concorde.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, so after Lexington in Concord Continental Congress convenes again And they choose to create a standing army the continental Army which They're not Historically don't like these standing armies but they do.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: So why don't you just talk us a little bit through?
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: The choice or the decision by Congress to establish a Standing Army.
• 25:54
  Speaker 0: In some ways, Congress was forced to take action and create a content alarming that kind of there.
• 25:59
  Speaker 0: I'm sure it probably being discussed in planned amongst the delegates but their hand was forced by events as often happens And Lexington Concorde is this really important moment.
• 26:08
  Speaker 0: It's at the beginning Of The American Revolutionary War But its also something That had been Signalled like people knew it Was coming.
• 26:15
  Speaker 0: they're Being A series At least three similar Events Kind of called alarms Where basically the British who By This Point were pretty much encamped within the city of Boston and had made various attempts to try.
• 26:27
  Speaker 0: get out of Boston and assert their control in Massachusetts more broadly.
• 26:32
  Speaker 0: The militia was stockpiling weapons, the British were trying to essentially pursue a counter-insurgency operation in Massachusets—and this is in the year of Seventeen-Seventeen-Four and into Seventeen Seventy-Five —and each time that British left Boston they were met with
• 26:45
  Speaker 0: hostility."
• 26:46
  Speaker 0: And it seemed quite likely that something would explode so if it hadn't been Lexington & Concord later.
• 26:55
  Speaker 0: But when Lexington Concord happened, which was again from the British point of view a relatively routine operation now going into Massachusetts to seize some munitions that colonial militia had been gathering there's also an attempt to try and seize some of the American political leaders as well And so this kind of military counter-insurgency operations were met with resistance, and again they'd done this before.
• 27:17
  Speaker 0: They were met with sort of you know Americans in their way but in previous attempts nothing had happened.
• 27:22
  Speaker 0: as Lexington Concorde was the first time that someone fired a shot we see a conflict emerge actually in the British.
• 27:30
  Speaker 0: Succeeding their operation, up to point they managed to seize and destroy the munitions that are being held at Lexington Concord but then forced into retreat.
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: where they come under heavy fire is basically the militia of New England!
• 27:43
  Speaker 0: The bells ringing people will quickly descend on this British column who sustain kind-of heavy casualties and require relief from the main army.
• 27:55
  Speaker 0: And then essentially these militia men who have come from across New England descend kind of on the town of Boston, and Boston becomes essentially under siege.
• 28:06
  Speaker 0: Again it's been... The British had being pinned in Boston for a good few months but after Lexington Concord that the militia assemble en masse!
• 28:15
  Speaker 0: You know up to ten thousand or more now outside Boston?
• 28:19
  Speaker 0: It is at this moment when the Continental Congress has decided what to do with that militia.
• 28:25
  Speaker 0: it's their decision to essentially adopt that militia as a representative of there, of their literature.
• 28:32
  Speaker 0: As the Continental Army underneath The Power Of The Continental Congress which for me is actually probably even more important moment than they're battle itself.
• 28:39
  Speaker 0: It's that kind of act where this congresses essentially claiming its authority over That militia force Which I would say at those moments pretty much just New England Militia.
• 28:47
  Speaker 0: but by claiming Their Authority Over It They are setting themselves up government to Britain, with control over an army in particular.
• 28:56
  Speaker 0: But I think it's important to remember that period from sort of seventeen seventy five through to seventeen seventy six is still a feeble atmosphere.
• 29:04
  Speaker 0: no one's entirely sure what's going on.
• 29:05
  Speaker 0: Congress isn't ready to declare independence yet even if by taking over an Army taking the step there.
• 29:11
  Speaker 0: And we're still in a phase of, well it's kind of war is politics.
• 29:15
  Speaker 0: by other means Congress immediately sort send a petition to The King try and ask for peace again so that they are trying to negotiate with Britain Again.
• 29:24
  Speaker 0: from the British point of view this act seen as an Act Of War.
• 29:27
  Speaker 0: In some ways it was the British who made their next step which is declare Americans in a seat rebellion By seventeen seventy five.
• 29:36
  Speaker 0: There's been some attempts to negotiate with the colonists, but by the British Parliament there is very little sympathy left for the American position.
• 29:44
  Speaker 0: And members of the British parliament have called it a fire-and-sword approach in many years and essentially they are majority.
• 29:55
  Speaker 0: The British are prepared to turn this into war... The view on Britain as an isolated incident that the majority of columnists are loyalists and this is something which can be contained within New England with sort-of decisive action.
• 30:11
  Speaker 0: The British declare Americans to be in rebellion, This is the Prohibitory Act Which essentially removes the American's who were in rebellion So not all Americans but just Americans who seem to have been in rebellion And takes them outside of royal protection.
• 30:26
  Speaker 0: That's a really significant act.
• 30:28
  Speaker 0: I mean...that essentially declares Americans as traitors
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Right, and that is grievance number twenty-three.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: That you read here.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: the third one You read which was grievance twenty three.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: in our long list of grievances He has abdicated government here by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: So basically this is for the declaration of independence written after Lexington and Concord after the creation of The Continental Army is going back and saying, you know basically as hostilities have started we tried to make peace but he said no.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Basically You're out of our protection And now I'm gonna wage war against you.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: so that just kind of glosses That grievance number twenty three.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: But get Back To The Continental Army please.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: in the creation Of The Continental Army
• 31:16
  Speaker 0: Yeah.
• 31:17
  Speaker 0: So the Americans and the Continental Congress Have A Decision To Make About What This militia assembled how they'll be organized.
• 31:26
  Speaker 0: They make a, I argue very intentional decision by calling themselves the Continental Congress and then calling The Army, The Continental Army.
• 31:33
  Speaker 0: And it's an attempt to try ensure that this conflict which at this stage is still localised on New England is something that can unite the colonies behind this.
• 31:43
  Speaker 0: And actually it's a political act,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: as an
• 31:45
  Speaker 0: Act to try and make this sort of existential crisis for the Colonies As A Whole.
• 31:50
  Speaker 0: They could have called you know The Army Of United States, The Army Congress...the American army!
• 31:56
  Speaker 0: ...and It Is Called Those Things In Different Places As Well But they're Sort-of The
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Term,
• 32:00
  Speaker 0: The Continental Army.
• 32:01
  Speaker 0: This is the end.
• 32:01
  Speaker 0: my book started with That Question Why Do They Call It The Contidental Army?
• 32:04
  Speaker 0: Why Not Anything Else intended to create this idea that, This is a war about shared geography.
• 32:11
  Speaker 0: Not About political ideology.
• 32:13
  Speaker 0: it's actually about Geography.
• 32:15
  Speaker 0: It's about the need To protect their geographical interests which are The thing at That point Which they can argue unites all the colonists.
• 32:22
  Speaker 0: again We're still you know very Very divided colonist politically.
• 32:26
  Speaker 0: We have loyalists, we have radical wigs and lots of people in between.
• 32:29
  Speaker 0: And it's not entirely clear which side is going to come out on top In that sort of domestic term.
• 32:35
  Speaker 0: so by trying To make this a war about the need to defend The american continent from A foreign invader the british army.
• 32:42
  Speaker 0: This Is kind Of a political act.
• 32:45
  Speaker 0: try and Make the britISH seem like outsiders and Try and make It seem Like its natural and coherent choice For the colonists to Come together in their defence.
• 32:53
  Speaker 0: So these discussion around the fact that Americans have been this kind of army, outside their civil power.
• 32:59
  Speaker 0: The fact there's no longer have their protections... a way of casting the British as an enemy which has we started out saying is quite big shift.
• 33:08
  Speaker 0: like the Americans are Britons.
• 33:12
  Speaker 0: they were shared nation up until seventeen seventy six same language and politics culture history.
• 33:20
  Speaker 0: so it was trying to create break.
• 33:24
  Speaker 0: So there's, the very name creates this idea of a shared identity.
• 33:29
  Speaker 0: and then their first act they do which is appointing George Washington as commander-in-chief.
• 33:33
  Speaker 0: Is again a very intentional political act.
• 33:35
  Speaker 0: more than anything yes washington has military experience not no great deal As far people in America go but he does have some as a militia officer on the seven years war.
• 33:44
  Speaker 0: But his main asset that he's from Virginia.
• 33:46
  Speaker 0: He's a southerner And this isn't an army almost entirely made up of militia men from New England.
• 33:53
  Speaker 0: So by putting a southern note, it says at his head and ascending with him.
• 33:57
  Speaker 0: so as Washington gets sent north And he get send along with her accompany of the junior riflemen as well and make that action is again A way trying to bring the south on board and bringing us out into their conflict as Well.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: professional is this, you know in the first days and weeks as this continental army has established by Congress.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: And it's kind of starting to assemble with George Washington and some Virginia riflemen.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I mean what are we talking about?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Are we really talking about a ragtag bunch of farmers or...or what?
• 34:35
  Speaker 0: I mean initially yes!
• 34:37
  Speaker 0: This New England men who descend on Boston in the first minutes of The War.
• 34:41
  Speaker 0: These are people who, some of whom have military experience from the Seven Years' War but some of them as sort of teenage boys and men in their twenties who were children during the Seven years war.
• 34:50
  Speaker 0: they've had some militia training about this kind of image of men picking up their muskets going to go into boston to confront the British armies.
• 35:00
  Speaker 0: it seems you know he's played out
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of
• 35:02
  Speaker 0: primary sources there and it seems to be largely true.
• 35:05
  Speaker 0: Washington kind of finds this, when he arrives.
• 35:08
  Speaker 0: He finds the New England Militia quite frustrating and talks about how they're very attached to their independence is very difficult in post-military discipline on them.
• 35:18
  Speaker 0: officers in The New England militia are elected so there's not a much incentive for them to make their soldiers do anything.
• 35:25
  Speaker 0: And So There Is This Classical Cultures West.
• 35:27
  Speaker 0: In some ways it's again more sectional.
• 35:29
  Speaker 0: Both.
• 35:29
  Speaker 0: Washington famously has desires To become an officer at British Army earlier.
• 35:37
  Speaker 0: This comes back to what we were talking about earlier, the British perception of Americans is that Washington has never seriously considered for a post in The British Army which he kind of holds against it... ...against the British.
• 35:47
  Speaker 0: but then he- He has this desire to be a professional officer like the British Army.
• 35:51
  Speaker 0: But also southern sort social structure is much less egalitarian, so southern militias are more organized and hierarchical where you have gentlemen in charge.
• 36:01
  Speaker 0: And essentially working class men who're in the ranks... The idea that this Southern Militia's a lot more organized than that way whereas New England militia is much more egalitarian.
• 36:11
  Speaker 0: So by putting Washington in charge of pretty much a new English militia You immediately are creating potential attention.
• 36:19
  Speaker 0: Congress anticipates that Make Washington the commander-in-chief, but he's supposedly advised by a council of officers and these are three men two Of them often New England Artemis Ward an Israel partner that all these both kind of veteran new england militia officers Both who commanded?
• 36:35
  Speaker 0: New England units during the Seven Years War And then Charles Lee.
• 36:38
  Speaker 0: Who is a veteran British officer who his friend America lives in America at this point But it seems someone with actual kind of professional experience, but Lee even though he's a professional British officer also thinks that fighting the war in an irregular way using The Militia is the way to go.
• 36:54
  Speaker 0: So you've got these three people who support basing the American military campaign on the militia versus Washington whose coming into his own ideas.
• 37:06
  Speaker 0: so they already have some tension there around what kind of continental army how it will function, whether it'll function more like a militia or more like professional army later on.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah and one of the most interesting things for me.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: you said there is this idea following orders.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I mean if general atmosphere being in the militia was its voluntary thing.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: well If i don't like what your telling to do then im gonna go home.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't like this war business anymore.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And obviously a professional British soldier doing that could be executed.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: so you learn very quickly how to follow orders and thats really funny.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: The second thing of course is there was an atmosphere difference also in the northern militia versus southern because Southern had already established a planter aristocracy.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: at that point There were the rich and wealthy, powerful who ran Virginia.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And then there are working people.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah So that makes sense too.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Really interesting points.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: John General Gage is in charge of the British troops In Boston at this time.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: He's going to obviously find out That theres new continental army being formed But also these militias floating around Now.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: they're engaging in open warfare.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: What is General Gage and what does the British officer corps thinking about?
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: these militias that are fighting them irregularly, And then this this Continental army.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: That's being formed.
• 38:43
  Speaker 0: I think The really important point Is there at this moment in time to British view the Americans who are assembled in arms as rebels.
• 38:50
  Speaker 0: This is not a enemy force This is a group of a rag-tag group of rebels is how they see it and that is important both in terms of their and perception of the Americans ability, so they have a very low estimation how strong fighting force the Americans are going to be.
• 39:09
  Speaker 0: The British even after the experience of Lexington Concorde which where don't cover themselves in glory still believe that the Americans will kind of fall over if their experiences seem good push.
• 39:19
  Speaker 0: But secondly, the fact that they believe the Americas to be rebels has really important consequences in terms of how the war is going to be prosecuted because rebels are not protected under the rudimentary enlightenment ideas around laws and nations like rebels if you're a traitors to the crown rights or protections.
• 39:40
  Speaker 0: And Rhett, remember has recent experience of this.
• 39:42
  Speaker 0: we have it some in seventeen forty five something called the Jacobite Rebellion where there's a major rebellion In Scotland and with mate Scottish but other people kind of descending as far as Derby which is always in The Midlands an attempt to overthrow the British crown and the British.
• 39:57
  Speaker 0: response To that is As you would expect brutal and the Scottish clans in particular are treated as rebels and decimated veteran officers from that moment.
• 40:10
  Speaker 0: And there's a view the Americans needed to be treated incredibly harshly as well, and that the Americans should essentially execute it if they're caught in arms—and this is the threat that the British carry against them.
• 40:23
  Speaker 0: The fact of that doesn't happen is kind of a combination of two things — one is actually get the first point in a sense, that Americans capture the fort of Ticonderoga which is up in northern New York and they capture the British garrison there.
• 40:38
  Speaker 0: And that has repercussions on the fact that they captured the British cannon then can bring it out to Boston and allows them to prosecute the siege against Boston but also means some have several hundred British soldiers as prisoners at war.
• 40:49
  Speaker 0: The very fact that these prisoners allow them to act as counterweights so any British threat would be met in kind by the Americans against The British Prisoners.
• 41:01
  Speaker 0: So essentially this, I mean stroke of fortune is essentially that the Americans take British prisoners first and means That the British don't prosecute a war A War Of Rebellion.
• 41:11
  Speaker 0: And the second thing Is Washington himself.
• 41:14
  Speaker 0: But the fact that Washington because he Assumes the role of a kind of military professional and treats is a gentleman and treats the British officers as gentlemen, means that the British officer's formal relationship with him are ultimately prepared to treat Washington has something resembling
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: an equal.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I hate asking counterfactuals but i will now because you brought it up so this capturing of The British Garrison at Fort Ticonderoga You're basically suggesting the Continental Army had a choice of what to do and by having the first sort of decisive action, saying okay well we have these POWs.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: We're not going to execute them or anything that kind of framed the way that throughout the rest of the conflict each side would treat the other And had say all of the garrison been executed then you would expect there would be repercussions.
• 42:17
  Speaker 0: Yes.
• 42:18
  Speaker 0: It becomes actually a question of military ethics, which is your field isn't it?
• 42:21
  Speaker 0: So this question with kind of reciprocity and the fact that the Americans do make decisions... And again Washington's very important here.
• 42:28
  Speaker 0: Do you make decisions to not fight this as if its as a counterinsurgency?
• 42:33
  Speaker 0: but to fight This Is If The Americans Are A Regular Force An Act Like That and it forces in a way.
• 42:38
  Speaker 0: the British hand is forced In that sense and Its Not Uncontested in Britain.
• 42:43
  Speaker 0: The British and particularly William Howe when he takes over command in seventeen seventy six, will you how wants to treat the Americans civilly?
• 42:50
  Speaker 0: And it does his best to try.
• 42:52
  Speaker 0: Treat them kind of treated well negotiate with offices and had kind of a treatment as something close equals.
• 42:59
  Speaker 0: but there are others who both politicians and officers think that the Americans should be treated as rebels.
• 43:05
  Speaker 0: and how is actually blamed or criticised for not doing it, particularly in their campaigns around New York where he has an opportunity to essentially surround and destroy Washington's army.
• 43:15
  Speaker 0: And that scene is kind of evidence that his too soft.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Well a fascinating thing about civility – this general meta point I'm going presupposes a future beyond the conflict.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: And I do think that on both sides of this conflict, men common soldiers and officers could already imagine the post war period and not all of these people being dead in needing to have relationships with them afterwards.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: And obviously, taking a POW is the respect for a POW or the taking of a sailor.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: when you're taking him... You are forecasting a peaceful future that person.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: But it is a reciprocal thing.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: And even with terrible conflicts like we see today in Russia and Ukraine, they are still exchanging POWs.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: so they're imagining of future.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: It's not always word to the death here.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I
• 44:26
  Speaker 0: think the British in particular are, in a difficult state here because they are fighting war to try and keep the colonies of the empire.
• 44:33
  Speaker 0: So you're right that these people are conscious that ideally when the British win this war want their colonies back being friends allies trading
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: partners.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Subjects.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Okay well... Let us end now.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: We're talking about all this niceness, let's end with the final grievance that you read at very start today which is grievance number twenty-four.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: so despite There is some civility being shown, some mercy being shown on each side.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: We have grievance twenty-four.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: he has plundered our seas ravaged our coasts burnt out towns and destroyed the lives of
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: people.".
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: So this a very specific accusation that King George has authorized war crimes against civilians?
• 45:25
  Speaker 0: Yes essentially I mean by point when it's been written down.
• 45:28
  Speaker 0: in seventeen seventy six you've had Britain starting to use its naval power and that's the one thing that Britain has almost the entire way through the war with some important exceptions around the Battle of Yorktown.
• 45:40
  Speaker 0: but Britain generally maintains naval.
• 45:42
  Speaker 0: superiority, and it's able to use that naval superiority to really ravage the American coast as it says.
• 45:49
  Speaker 0: There is a phrase in British military history that The British Army best used for its projectile launch from the British Navy which has been done through this war.
• 45:59
  Speaker 0: so basically they are able move soldiers around almost at will and assault different parts of North America.
• 46:08
  Speaker 0: So we have the occupation of Boston, which is under siege.
• 46:11
  Speaker 0: We have assaults on various coastal towns in New England form of Boston.
• 46:14
  Speaker 0: and then in seventeen seventy six British launched their main campaign into new york Which the bridge that holds for the rest of the war.
• 46:21
  Speaker 0: you have them assorts further south in Newport Philadelphia later on Charleston Savannah.
• 46:26
  Speaker 0: pretty much every single American city is occupied by the British at some point during the war and they Americans are pretty much because there's, they have no naval strength to speak of.
• 46:37
  Speaker 0: I'm pretty much unable to stop that from
• 46:39
  Speaker 0: happening.".
• 46:40
  Speaker 0: And it both kind of really symbolizes their military or their naval weakness.
• 46:45
  Speaker 0: but when you know in the eighteenth century naval power this ship was most powerful kind of military object you have.
• 46:52
  Speaker 0: So that is a really significant weakness which they are aware of even before the war even starts, so then it's going to be their Achilles' Hill!
• 46:59
  Speaker 0: It exposes there their weakness and it exposes that sort of the fact, they are out-of-the-king's protection and much this idea is naval.
• 47:10
  Speaker 0: This has been going back to the seventies and sixties.
• 47:12
  Speaker 0: really as a thing... The British Empire offers the reason you want to be in.
• 47:15
  Speaker 0: the British empire IS THE MIGHT OF THE BRITISH NAVY!
• 47:18
  Speaker 0: The protection that offers your ships & ability trade across the Atlantic & have that trade protected by the British Navy from pirates or other enemies.
• 47:27
  Speaker 0: And thats an important selling point Empire.
• 47:32
  Speaker 0: But also this has now been turned against them being like, Now using the British Navy against you and using The British Navy as a weapon against then North American coasts And for much of North America at this point the colonies are relying on well in New England both kind of fishing and shipbuilding up big industries but obviously trade the whole way across... And
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: also like eighty five percent Of population lived within fifty or hundred miles off the coast.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah
• 47:58
  Speaker 0: yeah they're still coastal people.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted you to focus on the accusation of war crimes and also on other side.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: So this is a pretty direct grievance... You know i read this grievance as basically saying that The Royal Navy King George, The Royal Army Is Committing War Crimes Against A Civilian Population.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: So what's your assessment as a historian of that accusation, and also maybe comment on some atrocities potentially the Continentals perpetrated by
• 48:34
  Speaker 0: British
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: loyalists?
• 48:39
  Speaker 0: In the eighteenth century armies commit
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: crimes
• 48:42
  Speaker 0: against civilians.
• 48:43
  Speaker 0: One thing I discuss in my work is this idea if you're for civilians apathetic to the war and don't really want to be involved.
• 48:55
  Speaker 0: And actually, the enemy to them is not any particular side it is armies per se!
• 49:00
  Speaker 0: What armies do in an ancient conflict in North America?
• 49:03
  Speaker 0: are they turn up on your land... They will kind of wreck your fields again most- The vast majority people in north america our fathers.
• 49:10
  Speaker 0: so having an army march through or camp throughout your field is in itself destructive of your livelihood.
• 49:16
  Speaker 0: but then there also going potentially almost certainly rep-quisitioned food, so steal food from you.
• 49:22
  Speaker 0: Steal your livestock, steal your grain, steal any alcohol you have or take any alcohol we've had.
• 49:28
  Speaker 0: and that's before we get to any other kind of crimes of murder rape sexual assault physical assault which again is very common
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: And on burning down
• 49:38
  Speaker 0: of burning down, burning down homesteads taking down fences to use for fires.
• 49:43
  Speaker 0: Chopping down wood too used for fires.
• 49:44
  Speaker 0: and if in any of this sort of you know primary sources that around either army British or continental You'll have a litany
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: of
• 49:51
  Speaker 0: soldiers being caught marshaled these kind of offenses Of civilians complaining about these kinds of offenses.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: there is some justice happening though.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: There are officers at times holding their...
• 50:04
  Speaker 0: There is an attempt by both sides and I think essentially Washington again, it's better than the British.
• 50:12
  Speaker 0: And there are probably several reasons why that was the case.
• 50:15
  Speaker 0: but Washington makes a more concerted effort to try and hold the Continental to account.
• 50:21
  Speaker 0: British do.
• 50:22
  Speaker 0: He's helped in this, and the fact that he can work with—and it does work —with The Colonial Assemblies and try to have some civilian input as well.
• 50:30
  Speaker 0: And one of things Washington DOES do.
• 50:32
  Speaker 0: even so Even when the Continental Army come and sort-of steal things from you... ...he'll try and ensure that you get given a receipt.
• 50:38
  Speaker 0: Whether or not you get paid back is another matter!
• 50:40
  Speaker 0: whether Orn't You're willing To go Go & Get Your Money Back Is Another Matter.
• 50:44
  Speaker 0: But Washington WILL give you A Receipt Which DOES Potentially Help does attempt to be better than the British, and I think that's a really important distinction is that Washington does try and enforce law as far as he can.
• 50:57
  Speaker 0: He does try an ensure people are held to account for their crimes but it does try insure court marshals take place so that people have brought before civilian courts if thats necessary... And then they army steal your word or still you're livestock-he just trying to ensure that you've given a receipt so that actually claim back against them which something that the british often don't bother to do!
• 51:17
  Speaker 0: It kind of comes.
• 51:19
  Speaker 0: Well, we started this idea that the British army don't necessarily see themselves as... This is their people.
• 51:24
  Speaker 0: They see themselves fighting apps in a foreign war against an enemy and are less inclined to try develop relationships with them with local people, whereas Washington has the foresight to realise that this is... much of this war is about winning hearts and minds.
• 51:40
  Speaker 0: And if you steal a cow from someone they're unlikely to sport you in future!
• 51:45
  Speaker 0: Even though it's often necessary for his army to live off land.
• 51:48
  Speaker 0: he does try and allow people have an attempt at gaining justice or gain recompense.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, Dr.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Chandler we've come to the end of our session today so I ask all my guests to reflect on the two hundred fifty year anniversary of The Declaration Of Independence.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: So what are your big thoughts as you look at this anniversary?
• 52:11
  Speaker 0: For me opinion is someone who's a British historian and he works in the American Revolution In Britain.
• 52:17
  Speaker 0: I've often asked by Americans why are you interested in the American Revolution?
• 52:21
  Speaker 0: Like, Why Are You Interested In Our History.
• 52:22
  Speaker 0: And i always say well it's our history too.
• 52:24
  Speaker 0: like this is part of British history.
• 52:26
  Speaker 0: It's a quite important part of british history but its something that Britain has very overlooked and even at the time quite happy to try and forget about very, very quickly.
• 52:39
  Speaker 0: This was a major defeat for the British Empire—a major weakening of The British Empire!
• 52:43
  Speaker 0: A major embarrassment both politically and militarily... And the British very quickly wanted to move on from this domestically, but then we also kind of moved on from it in terms of our memory.
• 52:55
  Speaker 0: It's something that British kind of very quickly tried to move away from this idea that there was any kind of dispute between sort the Britain and its colonies and move towards the idea of a special relationship based on language culture and history with no real discussion about what
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: happened in
• 53:10
  Speaker 0: that shared-language cultural get out of the anniversary is actually thinking a bit more
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: about
• 53:18
  Speaker 0: what that relationship between Britain and America was like in the first place.
• 53:22
  Speaker 0: And it's how we remember The American Revolution, in Britain as part of British history not just... Not just this part of American History which obviously is but also our own history as well and our memory of what Britain is and what the British Empire was.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: so thats
• 53:36
  Speaker 0: why I am approaching the Anniversary.
• 53:39
  Speaker 0: Dr John Chandler thank you very much.
• 53:41
  Speaker 0: Thank You for having me Andrew.
• 54:20
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• 54:32
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• 54:38
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• 54:41
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