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Why is “enough” is so hard to say? /// FOLLOW with Michele Cushatt · FOLLOW

• 0:02
  Did you know that the prayer of Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, this whole sense, it targets the same parts in our brain that antidepressant drug target?
• 0:12
  To like allow my body to rest and be content and go, if this is all there is and it's just this moment, thanks be to God.
• 0:23
  It's enough.
• 0:24
  It's not like I'm walking around six inches off the ground, always feeling thankful and spiritual and all that.
• 0:30
  No, I sometimes it's literally blood, sweat, and tears, like arm wrestling myself into a posture of okay, rather than focusing on what I lack, how can I be like David and say, Lord, he's my shepherd.
• 0:44
  I have all that I need.
• 0:46
  I have all that I need.
• 0:53
  Welcome to the follow-up podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus was right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
• 1:10
  So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:12
  All that Jesus said was true and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:24
  Well, this podcast, we are in the morning, you're drinking coffee, and uh I think you're like a you're a coffee, you like you're a coffee person.
• 1:31
  I'm a coffee snob.
• 1:32
  You are a snob?
• 1:33
  Yeah, I'm not a snob about I mean, like as I'm sitting here, I'm in a sweatshirt and jeans, t-shirt, cash.
• 1:39
  Totally.
• 1:39
  But coffee.
• 1:40
  That's your thing.
• 1:41
  That's that's my thing for a variety of reasons.
• 1:45
  But both my husband and I we have an espresso machine.
• 1:47
  You do, like the I also have a French press, I also have a pour over.
• 1:51
  I also have one of those little Italian espresso makers that goes on the stove.
• 1:56
  Like I have all the different tools and varieties, and we have a coffee station in our kitchen.
• 2:02
  That's nice.
• 2:03
  I know it's kind of ridiculous.
• 2:05
  Coffee truly is spiritual, it really is spiritual.
• 2:09
  And if it if it's not, it's an idol.
• 2:12
  Oh, yeah.
• 2:12
  Well it could be both.
• 2:15
  It could be both at the same time, but I'm a fan of coffee.
• 2:17
  That's all I have to say.
• 2:18
  So if anybody wants to send me high quality coffee beans, I can give you my address.
• 2:23
  What's the best cup of coffee?
• 2:24
  Can you remember like being in a place where you were yes, yes, yes.
• 2:27
  Okay.
• 2:28
  Um uh uh uh it is um Cape Town, South Africa.
• 2:37
  I think it's I'm trying to remember.
• 2:39
  Honest coffee roasters.
• 2:41
  Wow, like you remember specifically.
• 2:42
  We walked, my husband and I walked downtown through some not great areas to get to this coffee.
• 2:49
  And it is a spectacular coffee shop.
• 2:53
  Um, all of it.
• 2:54
  I mean yeah, and whenever I when I went back there what a year and a half ago, I went back there again just to buy the beans and bring them home.
• 3:02
  Like it's that good of a cup of coffee.
• 3:04
  There you go.
• 3:04
  Is it great for real when you have something that you remember like that, like a meal or a cup of coffee or an experience that you're like That's really what it is.
• 3:17
  Yeah.
• 3:17
  So for me, coffee or a meal should be about relationship and experience and um slow enjoyment.
• 3:27
  Yes.
• 3:28
  So a coffee shop should not be something you speed in and out of, it should be a place where you sit down with people you love and you enjoy and savor and have yeah, you enjoy the relationship as much as a cup of coffee.
• 3:40
  I that's what I love about coffee shops though, especially when you're in parts of the world where coffee is communal.
• 3:48
  So I can't speak to South Africa, haven't been there, but like in Italy, it is a uh this communal thing where sorry, that was my oh Carter's gonna Carter's guys.
• 4:00
  Listen, here's the thing.
• 4:00
  Come on in.
• 4:01
  Um, in the middle of this episode, oh, it's locked.
• 4:06
  This is gonna be great.
• 4:07
  This is like making a grand entrance into the podcast.
• 4:10
  But don't come in, but we don't need to intentionally making a grand entrance into our podcast is our co-host, Mr.
• 4:20
  Steve.
• 4:21
  But didn't you just say we don't need him?
• 4:24
  Get in here.
• 4:26
  Now you get to come in with a really grand entrance.
• 4:29
  Carter, you you made it.
• 4:31
  We we were starting a conversation, so we're gonna bring you into this.
• 4:34
  We were talking about the best like cup of coffee or meal or something you genuinely remember.
• 4:42
  You're like, Chrissy and I, years and years ago, we we were coming back from uh a trip, I think we were in Africa, uh, was serving, and we had a layover.
• 4:56
  So on our layover, we ended up I was trying to with the layover was in uh Copenhagen and the the world's best restaurants in Copenhagen, Noma, Numa, Noma, Noma, Numa, Noma.
• 5:10
  Um so I tried to get reservations, impossible.
• 5:13
  But they there was another restaurant that was like Michelin, had two stars, had a reservation drop, so we went.
• 5:24
  It was it was the experience, the the most incredible four hours, and it was mostly her and I we still talk about the food was amazing for sure, but the experience, even just together, was like this is like otherworldly because we move so fast in the US through meals and coffee and do lots of stuff by ourselves, and even in coffee shops, when I look around, there's a lot of people who are lined up working, and in in some of these other parts of the other world, coffee's communal, so you gather and you talk, and so that's all I really had to say about that.
• 6:06
  No, honestly, I was thinking a lot.
• 6:08
  We are in this prayer series, and we've been talking through these different ways in which we communicate with God and what what is what is the goal of this and what are we trying to do?
• 6:19
  And we have Michelle with us, which uh thanks for being back.
• 6:23
  You're here often, so it's not it's like you know.
• 6:26
  I like to think of myself as a regular contributor.
• 6:29
  You are a regular contributor.
• 6:30
  I like this.
• 6:31
  That's a nice way to say it.
• 6:32
  But we're talking about Thanksgiving, and that was part of what I was thinking about when we stop and reflect on these moments, you know.
• 6:42
  I mean, that's exactly what we just did.
• 6:44
  We we remembered and then articulated something that was meaningful to us, and in the process of giving that voice in the company of others, that is Thanksgiving.
• 6:56
  Right?
• 6:57
  So we didn't use the word thanks, but we were talking, this was so meaningful, I remember it, it was so good, it was such a gift.
• 7:03
  I've not had anything else like that moment.
• 7:06
  And in the practice of remembering and then almost reenacting it in the way we tell the story, that is Thanksgiving.
• 7:14
  I love that.
• 7:15
  What is it about?
• 7:18
  And maybe this is an overstatement, but does it feel like Thanksgiving is and we're gonna talk about it specifically as prayer, but I'm speaking just in general, like thankfulness.
• 7:29
  Is that is that something that's hard for our culture, do you think?
• 7:33
  Is it easy?
• 7:33
  Is it hard?
• 7:34
  How do what do you think most people's disposition is in American?
• 7:38
  Yeah, totally.
• 7:39
  I I think absolutely, because I think part of what we have been trying to do from day one is always to reach and grab for the next thing rather than save for whatever he was.
• 7:49
  Like we're always reaching and grabbing for some new hit, some new dopamine uh hit, some new satisfaction, something bigger and better.
• 7:59
  Like we're always that achievement thing is so hardwired in us as Americans uh that we don't spend much time actually remembering what was, savoring it again, and then even celebrating what is without moving so quickly on to what's next.
• 8:18
  I feel that I think one of the things I so I have this tattoo on my arm, and I'm not sure if it works, but it does say remember and forget.
• 8:29
  And the phrase I uh think about when it comes to just generally my disposition towards all things is too often I remember all these things I should forget, and I forget all the stuff I ought to remember and the practice of remembrance, and I'm a seven on the Enneagram, and I'm guilty of this.
• 8:51
  So, seven on the Enneagram for those of you that are unfamiliar with the Enneagram.
• 8:56
  He's basically like the party guy.
• 8:58
  I am looking for the next adventure, and my kids laugh because it is very regular for me to start planning the next vacation on the current vacation, right?
• 9:09
  We're we're in it, like we're in on a few adventures with you uh with ministry, and I can testify.
• 9:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 9:16
  I bear with me.
• 9:17
  I'm thinking about the next thing, right?
• 9:18
  I'm thinking about the next thing, and but but that general disposition sometimes can make it difficult for us to live in a moment, to be reflective in that moment, uh, to be thankful in that moment because there is this like, oh, I'm I'm thinking about the next thing and where we're gonna head and achieve, etc.
• 9:52
  I also think we uh in our culture tend to focus on what we lack, not what we have.
• 9:58
  We we have this unique ability to see uh the gaps and what's missing versus what's present.
• 10:08
  Uh and that just by nature makes us not engage in Thanksgiving because we're too busy to focus on what we don't have.
• 10:16
  Why do we do that?
• 10:17
  Why do why do you why do we do that?
• 10:19
  Great question.
• 10:20
  If we could solve that, imagine how many counselors we put out of business.
• 10:25
  But there has to be something underneath that, right?
• 10:28
  Underlying reasons why we as human beings tend to be focused on what we lack um versus what we have.
• 10:40
  Because that is at the heart of thankfulness, I believe.
• 10:43
  Wouldn't we s would it's like the first verse of Psalm 23, the Lord's my shepherd, I lack nothing.
• 10:49
  Which is a whole re what were you gonna say, Steve?
• 10:52
  Well, I was just gonna say on the passage you taught, rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances.
• 11:01
  So what what does what does that mean, like in the sense of can I give thanks in my lack?
• 11:09
  Can I give thanks in my you know, mountaintop experiences?
• 11:14
  Can I savor what when I have that incredible meal or am I rushing through it?
• 11:22
  Can I savor that there's even something that will stretch me or teach me or help me grow in dependency um when I feel like I'm going through something I don't want to?
• 11:36
  That I like that's the piece of the the verse.
• 11:39
  I'm like, giving thanks is hard enough.
• 11:41
  And giving thanks in all circumstances now, now it's like um the framework to try to make sense of that, I don't know if we know how to do that.
• 11:55
  Yeah.
• 11:55
  Because I think at some level we lack a theology of suffering.
• 11:59
  Yes, right?
• 11:59
  We lack any kind of theology that orients itself around the value of discomfort.
• 12:07
  Well, this is really important though, because if we're saying that this is a a practice we should engage in, right?
• 12:17
  The prayer of Thanksgiving, thankful heart, understanding this theology of suffering is pretty key to getting to a place where Thanksgiving isn't just positive thinking with a Bible verse lapped on top of it, right?
• 12:30
  Or, well, I'm thankful for all this stuff that I have.
• 12:34
  Yeah.
• 12:35
  So it ends up becoming such a narrow definition of Thanksgiving.
• 12:40
  Um, it's it's interesting.
• 12:43
  This whole concept of this theology of suffering requires us to not see pain as a problem to be solved, but as an opportunity for some kind of new insight or some kind of depth or some kind of growth or some kind of something that is actually pregnant with possibility versus a problem to be solved.
• 13:08
  It's fascinating too, is like the conversation when I jumped in was talking about the table.
• 13:14
  And Eucharist means to give thanks.
• 13:17
  It does.
• 13:18
  And then gives thanks with a a broken piece of bread and a cup and a body that was broken and a blood that was shed.
• 13:28
  You sit here and you're like, oh, as you talk about the suffering, it's that's the model.
• 13:33
  It's the model, right?
• 13:34
  It's the model.
• 13:35
  And it's like that full spectrum of what it means to be human is that sense of giving thanks when it doesn't make sense in the in the suffering, um, and also in those moments that you're like, I just want to save her and never leave this moment uh because there's so much.
• 13:53
  Um, but I think that's it's again we don't have that theology.
• 13:57
  Yeah, but I wonder if the epithesis of the American dream.
• 14:00
  Right.
• 14:00
  Like it really is the opposite of go for it, grab everything you can, you know, don't let anything, don't let anything pass you by.
• 14:10
  Like this is a whole flip on that.
• 14:13
  But here's here, Michelle, here's where I'd I'd really love to see what you think about this.
• 14:18
  If like zero is like just um like the the middle, the middle spot, and you've got 10, which is the most joy-filled person that's ever walked this earth, and negative 10 is the most suffering anybody has ever ever experienced.
• 14:38
  Do you think that there's like this continuum that you can only experience joy to the level that you've experienced suffering?
• 14:50
  So if I've gone to a negative four in suffering, I can go to a four in actual joy because they they like build off each other, or can someone go, oh no, I I'm a seven in joy and never tasted suffering?
• 15:02
  Do they do they do they have to work in tandem in that formation process?
• 15:07
  Um, or are they we've just done such a good job of bifurcating them, um, but it's actually more happiness than actual joy or giving thanks?
• 15:17
  So I'll answer that with an illustration.
• 15:19
  So you and I both have a cup of coffee in front of us, right?
• 15:22
  However, uh one of us has had um two-thirds of her taste removed.
• 15:28
  So when I drink this cup of coffee, which is high quality beans, and I savor it, which one of us do you think appreciates the taste of it more?
• 15:39
  You okay?
• 15:40
  Because I know what it's like to go without any kind of taste or flavor.
• 15:44
  Yeah.
• 15:45
  Okay.
• 15:46
  So one of the tastes that I can taste the best is bitter, believe it or not.
• 15:49
  There's that'll preach.
• 15:51
  Um, but so coffee, being that it's bitter and has good flavor, a good cup of coffee means so much more to me because there's so much that I can't taste.
• 16:02
  So to me, I savor it and I celebrate it like I am thoroughly enjoying this cup of coffee.
• 16:09
  But it's only because of the loss.
• 16:11
  Yeah.
• 16:12
  I don't think I appreciate it fully.
• 16:14
  So um to your point, is it possible to experience a seven, eight, nine in joy if we haven't had any suffering?
• 16:21
  We may think it's a seven, eight, or nine, but really on a true continuum, it probably is only barely scratching the surface of joy because you only really appreciate it once you know what it's like to be without it.
• 16:34
  Um that said, as you were talking too about this continuum, zero at the middle, right?
• 16:42
  And so, like a plus ten for the highest highs of joy and negative ten for the lowest lows.
• 16:48
  I keep thinking of Paul saying, I have learned to be content in all circumstances.
• 16:53
  And so what if the goal isn't a linear continuum, but the fullness of all of it at once?
• 16:59
  So it's kind of like at the zero, but you've got it all.
• 17:01
  You got it all, yes.
• 17:03
  That's interesting, right?
• 17:04
  Yes, and how do we get to that, that place where we just sit so squarely there that we feel all the nuances of of the joyous joy and the lowest low, and we feel all of that and just somehow learn to be, but this is it.
• 17:20
  This is this is the gift of the human experience, the gift and the grief.
• 18:03
  Don't don't don't don't we think or don't we live in which like thankfulness to get to thankfulness is just collecting a highlight reel of life, whatever that means.
• 18:14
  Whatever.
• 18:15
  Right, some highlight reel of good things.
• 18:18
  And it is true that these are dopamine hits, right?
• 18:22
  You you you get dopamine hits from it, but it does tend to leave you still not content.
• 18:33
  I mean, you you can have a highlight reel of life and not necessarily be thankful at all, especially if the whole goal is accumulation.
• 18:42
  And if the whole goal is an achievement of images that we then use to portray to the world to get a different hitch.
• 18:50
  That's like all so very provisionary and conditional that that's a horrible way to look.
• 18:56
  Can I be an old person for a minute?
• 18:58
  Well, you are an old person, but you can my wife and I, this was a few years ago.
• 19:03
  We had gone out and we were sitting on this rooftop and having a conversation when, and it was quite full, or it was downtown Denver.
• 19:13
  We noticed this, these two gals who were uh posing, they both had phones, and um, they took a picture, and then the the pose must not have worked, so they did it again, and then they did it again, and I am not kidding, we watched them for a half an hour all around this place, posing and looking and posing and looking.
• 19:41
  And I said to Chrissy, I'm like, they have no idea how to be here.
• 19:46
  They are basically here to get something to put out there so that somebody somewhere might look at it and think that they're here, but they're not actually here.
• 19:58
  Yeah, you know, they're missing the entire experience.
• 20:00
  They missed the whole thing.
• 20:01
  Like, maybe at some point they stopped taking pictures.
• 20:04
  We it was really fascinating at first, but I wonder if there isn't something in our inability to live fully thankful tied to our inability as a culture to be fully present.
• 20:18
  Like whether that's pain or whatever that looks like, you know, we don't know how to be where we're at.
• 20:25
  Well, and I think where you just alluded to is how we uh confuse a dopamine hit uh with joy and thankfulness.
• 20:38
  And so what we think we're chasing isn't actual biblical uh Thanksgiving, yeah, but we've been uh almost conditioned to who I feel good, like I got this many likes on this post.
• 20:53
  Oh, I feel like I'm I'm grateful, I'm grateful I got this, or I got this new opportunity, or this achievement piece, but it almost like robs the the the essence and marrow and soul of like what it means.
• 21:07
  Um, and I'm like, how do we almost uh uh decondition our brain that is chasing dopamine hits to get to that presence where we can actually savor?
• 21:22
  Um, I was just I had just picked up my glass of coffee and I was like, how does Michelle do it?
• 21:28
  I'm just gonna go really slow with my coffee and like how do how do you say like I don't I don't know how to do that.
• 21:35
  Like I know how to check my phone, I know how to think about the next thing, I know how to set a goal and achieve and get it, but to to like allow my body to rest and be content and go, if this is all there is and it's just this moment, thanks be to God.
• 21:55
  It's enough.
• 21:56
  Even as we're sitting doing this podcast, because I was thinking I do both.
• 22:00
  This moment having this conversation is enough.
• 22:03
  Like this moment is in of itself.
• 22:05
  Is its own.
• 22:07
  Expression of the kingdom of God.
• 22:10
  Has come.
• 22:11
  It's come.
• 22:28
  Thanksgiving is not a feeling.
• 22:30
  It really is a posture.
• 22:32
  That's really important.
• 22:33
  It's really important because we tend to say, well, I don't feel thankful.
• 22:37
  The feeling is irrelevant to the practice of Thanksgiving.
• 22:41
  Thanksgiving is really an awareness of the gift that has been received in this moment.
• 22:50
  Right?
• 22:50
  And seeing it as there's something about this moment that is precious and valuable, even if it's not ideal and doesn't feel good.
• 22:59
  There's something about this that is precious.
• 23:01
  And to see it for what it is and to somehow adopt a posture of gratitude and thanksgiving, even if it doesn't feel like it.
• 23:10
  Michelle, you know, I'm always going to be the person who is like, well, play it out for me.
• 23:14
  Play it out for me.
• 23:15
  Help me understand like how this, how this, because I think that is so profound and so true.
• 23:23
  Uh I've just been so taught that it's a feeling.
• 23:27
  Yeah.
• 23:28
  And trying to understand what that posture looks like.
• 23:32
  Um, and I'm trying to even ask the question, not in a way that I turn it into an achievement, that I can be like, look at I did the posture really, really well.
• 23:40
  I beat Eric in the posture.
• 23:42
  Exactly.
• 23:42
  But just Eric got a C minus.
• 23:44
  I got to see a plus.
• 23:46
  Um, but in the sense of how how does that play out?
• 23:50
  You know, last episode, which you know, so many people listened to and were like, she's brilliant.
• 23:57
  She's that was so helpful.
• 23:59
  But there was like one part of you talking about your story and and just talking about some difficult pieces in your journey.
• 24:05
  What is a posture of of thankfulness on the daily in the good, in the hard, in the in the mundane or normal or boring?
• 24:20
  How does are you are do are you creating margin in your day?
• 24:23
  Like what does that look like for for Michelle?
• 24:26
  Well, it's good, it's just as messy for me as it is for everybody else.
• 24:29
  Like I have to wrestle through it.
• 24:31
  I I wasn't feeling very thankful yesterday afternoon because that happens.
• 24:36
  Um, because life is life and it does that.
• 24:39
  So uh it's not that I always feel, it's not like I'm walking around six inches off the ground, always feeling thankful and spiritual and all that.
• 24:47
  No, sometimes it's literally blood, sweat, and tears, like arm wrestling myself into a posture of okay, rather than focusing on what I lack, how can I be like David and say, Lord is my shepherd?
• 25:01
  I have all that I need.
• 25:03
  I have all that I need.
• 25:05
  Um, you know, I could focus on the two-thirds of taste that I don't have, or I can go, wow, I really appreciate this cup of coffee.
• 25:14
  Like I do have to discipline myself to not allow myself to spend too much time dwelling on all that's wrong, all that's lacking.
• 25:25
  Um, and that means throughout the course of the day that I have to catch myself and say, all right, we're just not gonna go there.
• 25:31
  We're not gonna spend too much time thinking about that.
• 25:34
  Um sometimes we've talked about Eric and I have talked about this a lot.
• 25:39
  We have to give voice to the lament.
• 25:41
  So lament and thanksgiving are not mutually exclusive, they are simultaneous.
• 25:47
  So we can acknowledge, boy, I'm sad that it is the way it is.
• 25:52
  But kind of like Job said, all this sadness, all this grief, and he said, But I know that my Redeemer lives.
• 25:59
  But I know, but I know, like Lamentation says, this I call the mind, and therefore I have hope.
• 26:04
  Um, there's always a point where we have to turn our backs on all that's missing and turn our face toward the one who is going to renew all things.
• 26:16
  Like it it's I can almost in my head see myself physically turn away from only seeing all that's been lost to looking at the face of God and know that this at some point in time will all be made new.
• 26:31
  I I I think one thing that you've pointed out is in order to really live in a posture of Thanksgiving, learn how to pray the prayer of Thanksgiving, we do have to have a theology of suffering, which seems strange if you think about it on the service.
• 26:47
  So it seems like there is a portion of learning Thanksgiving that has a posture uh you have to have a theology of suffering.
• 26:55
  And here's why I think that's important is because if the expectation is that life is supposed to be lived comfortably and that there is no suffering, and suffering is to be avoided at all costs, and look, nobody likes to go through the hard things, but if the expectation is that, well, if I follow Jesus, then I won't have any suffering.
• 27:19
  Well that hasn't quite panned out that hasn't quite panned out for the apostle Paul, for the decision, for Jesus.
• 27:27
  But that theology is important to Thanksgiving because the delta between how you think life's supposed to go and how it actually goes is directly correlated to the amount of pain.
• 27:37
  Expectation, right?
• 27:38
  So that theology of suffering, that's really important.
• 27:42
  And that's not to say, look, nobody's sitting around going, I hope to have some suffering, right?
• 27:48
  Yeah, you don't wish for it.
• 27:49
  But when it's there, how can we look at it and see it as um not an interruption of our joy, but perhaps um a place where um the practice of digging deeper for joy will be very fruitful.
• 28:06
  So I think there's a part that says in order to enter into this posture, as as Carter was saying, like this isn't a box to check off.
• 28:17
  There has to be a uh there has to be a theology of suffering, right?
• 28:20
  That's some of the work.
• 28:21
  We've got to understand that.
• 28:23
  So that's that we see it as not an interruption or a waste or a problem, but that it actually has its place in the human life, and it as painful as it is, again, we don't wish for it, but we also realize it's not wasted, it's incredibly valuable.
• 29:01
  As I'm listening, I I hear two things for sure.
• 29:05
  One is in order for us to enter into this posture, there has to be an understanding of suffering, a theology for that.
• 29:11
  But I also think that there has to be a practice of uh presence, full presence.
• 29:17
  One of the now, now you're speaking to someone who full presence is very difficult, right?
• 29:24
  And I went through a season of trying to understand how do I become fully present in this moment, right?
• 29:30
  How do I be right here?
• 29:31
  And what I've come to understand about most of us being fully present is really difficult.
• 29:37
  That's why we scroll on our phones, you know.
• 29:39
  Um boredom, our attention span's so short.
• 29:44
  It just so quick, right?
• 29:45
  So we get bored.
• 29:46
  It's very hard to be in a moment.
• 29:49
  And most of us uh that struggle with presence, either we struggle either we're too much living in the future, which that's me.
• 29:59
  I'm like, what's next?
• 30:00
  Where are we headed?
• 30:01
  Where are we going?
• 30:02
  Can't wait for lunch.
• 30:03
  I'm already thinking about it.
• 30:04
  What will I order?
• 30:05
  I've already thought about that today.
• 30:06
  I've thought about it today.
• 30:08
  Um, or you live in the past where you reflect back on uh the way things were, how broken it was.
• 30:17
  And I think for me, Thanksgiving is the ability to be right here where my feet are without referencing dreaming about the future or referencing the past.
• 30:31
  That's a really important component because today, right now, when we talk about it's enough, well, it is.
• 30:40
  The sun's shining today, and I'm here with three of my friends today, and we had coffee this morning, and that was pretty great.
• 30:48
  We know we're gonna get it.
• 30:49
  This is what we have.
• 30:51
  And this practice for me of Thanksgiving has been grounded in learning how to be present in a moment without those reference points.
• 31:03
  I wonder when you hear that, what comes to mind for both of you?
• 31:09
  Well, I think I think what you're saying is really beautiful because you know, when you when our minds are fixated on the past, we are not present, we are living most of the time in some sense of shame.
• 31:25
  We're when the past is is driving us.
• 31:28
  Um when we're more future oriented, it is often more of a playground for worry and anxiety.
• 31:37
  Oh, for sure.
• 31:38
  The present, which is the wildest piece, we actually think we control the past and we control the future.
• 31:43
  We don't.
• 31:44
  The only thing we control is this present moment.
• 31:46
  So we only control that a very little bit.
• 31:49
  Very, very little.
• 31:50
  It's just the only thing we we control is how we show up.
• 31:53
  Yeah.
• 31:53
  And and in that, how we show up actually creates the mo moments of more of God or less of God.
• 32:04
  Um, by the way, that we box him out.
• 32:06
  Or and so I think that there's in the present, you know, you you have this amazing story where God calls Moses up to the top of the mountain, and um and it and and then he he he basically says, uh, come up to the top of the mountain.
• 32:23
  He's already there.
• 32:24
  But he's just saying, like, I want you to be fully here and be with me.
• 32:29
  And and and I think again, that uh that posture um it's not a feeling, but that posture is uh just a a constant reminder that this is holy ground.
• 32:44
  And we see the present as holy ground, um, no matter where you are, what place you're in, it it it instead of that temptation to go to the future and consider if you actually are like God's here in this moment's brimming with redemptive potential, I I wanna I wanna like get everything I can out of this.
• 33:07
  But again, that's so much easier to say than practice, but I think that's been the piece to for me.
• 33:14
  Um, and I think I feel it most, and you know, you're about to be an empty nester, we're about to send our first off to college, and we have this like three months before my son is gone.
• 33:29
  And it's like every conversation I can feel.
• 33:32
  I I haven't had that, but it's like I'm just trying to savor like that moment, and he's like, Oh, it's great dinner, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends, and I'm like, awesome.
• 33:43
  Just just like one more, one more, like, one more, one more question I want to ask you.
• 33:49
  And and trying to bring that piece more into the regular, um, I think is how to experience the present because that's the moment when you go, Oh gosh, thanks be to God that this is my child, uh, thanks be to God that this is what I got to learn, or thanks be to God, that it's even hard and he's leaving, and it's beautiful, and it's uh good and it's awesome, and it I'm gonna miss him.
• 34:16
  But thanks be to God.
• 34:17
  So I love that.
• 34:19
  How do I live in such a way that today really is enough?
• 34:22
  And not have anxiety about what's to come.
• 34:25
  It's interesting because you know, I I like thinking about the neuroscience of all these things.
• 34:30
  If you think about what we chase with the dopamine hits, these dopamine hits are real, but they are fleeting and they don't really solve anything.
• 34:40
  And they typically need more and more of a more.
• 34:43
  Did you know that the prayer of Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, this whole sense, it is the most studied aspect of us.
• 34:52
  It targets the same parts in our brain that antidepressant drug target.
• 34:58
  It it it does stuff literally to us, like engaging in this thankful posture actually does what we hope the dopamine hits will, right?
• 35:09
  It actually settles us, it does things in us.
• 35:14
  There's something to it, and so there probably isn't anything more important than to learn how to not only be thankful, but this is about you know these prayers engaging with God in this posture.
• 35:30
  So uh what what a what a beautiful, beautiful idea.
• 35:34
  I would just add to and not to detract from what you both just said, that for those that tend to go to extremes, being fully present right here doesn't mean for not ever reflecting on the past or not ever anticipating a future.
• 35:48
  Part of Thanksgiving is in the old testament, God reminded his people all the time do not forget, do not forget, do when you get to a good place and everything's going well for you, don't forget what the Lord has done.
• 36:01
  And so part of what keeps us anchored in the present is our ability to remember God's past faithfulness and anticipate his future faithfulness.
• 36:10
  And that's why we can stay fully present here.
• 36:12
  Because the same God that was faithful then will be faithful again, and so I have nothing to fear, right?
• 36:18
  And so it's not completely putting blinders on to the past or the future, but it's staying here with a really good, solid memory of God's goodness and an anticipate anticipation of God's future goodness.
• 36:33
  I think it's such a brilliant way to say it because you know you mentioned uh when it comes to mind, um or you know, you see Paul mention this again, like set your mind.
• 36:47
  Um fix your eyes, that mindset.
• 36:50
  It's when you are looking at the past and and seeing that faithfulness of God, or when you are looking to the future and anticipating with confidence the faithfulness and the hope that is to come, um, that's great.
• 37:09
  But when and you said this just like a few minutes ago, when you find yourself looking back and you can be bitter, you have to like stop and go, no, no, no, no, no.
• 37:21
  I'm not gonna set my mind on that.
• 37:23
  I'm gonna set my mind on so and I think that piece of sometimes in our in that my human nature, I often find myself not knowing how, and I just keep like almost drifting into the shame spiral.
• 37:40
  The rumination plays the rumination plays.
• 37:43
  Um, but to even have that language that you had, like, no, no, no, no.
• 37:47
  I'm gonna look at the past, but I want to remember what I learned, what God taught me, his faithfulness.
• 37:53
  I look to the future, future's not bad, but how am I walking in anticipation?
• 37:59
  But when I find myself drifting into those other places, how do I quickly catch that and recenter it?
• 38:05
  Nope, we're not gonna do that.
• 38:06
  Second Corinthians 4, where um so we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen.
• 38:12
  For what is seen is temporary, what is unseen is eternal.
• 38:15
  And so that is that's a whole reorientation of our perspective beyond the temporal, which I don't think we do very well as Americans either, right?
• 38:24
  So developing the ability to have spiritual eyes and to see things beyond, like we're fully present in the immediate, but we have the ability to see beyond the immediate.
• 38:36
  Like that we see that there's a whole nother reality that is even more real than our physical reality, and that helps to ground us in interest.
• 38:45
  Because what an awesome conversation.
• 38:47
  Thanks for jumping in and talking about something I think that is, well, it's essential and sometimes lost, so important.
• 38:55
  We don't want to be thankful just in November, right?
• 38:59
  We will we will and uh for those of you that want to learn more about uh prayer and these practices, you can see the link in our show notes.
• 39:07
  We have a prayer guide that actually walks you through five different forms of prayer, namely Thanksgiving.
• 39:14
  You can order that, integrate it into your life, and learn some new practices.
• 39:18
  So thanks, guys.
• 39:20
  Always appreciate you.
• 39:21
  What a great day! Thanks for the yeah, get that coffee in before you get out of here.
• 39:26
  One last drink.
• 39:27
  Way to go, Luke.
• 39:28
  All right.
• 39:30
  So that's gonna do it for today.
• 39:32
  If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 39:37
  Take it with you.
• 39:38
  Carry it into your week.
• 39:40
  Talk about it with somebody, let it do something in you.
• 39:43
  And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 39:46
  We'll be back soon with more.
• 39:48
  So until then, keep following up.