Latest / Skin Anarchy / Maxwell Stock, Founder and CEO of EPICUTIS

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Maxwell Stock, Founder and CEO of EPICUTIS · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is Mr.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: NRT.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you like find it, that's going to help you really, really gonna love everything that we're getting up here today.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys the founder and CEO of the incredibly science-forward and innovative line Epicutus Skincare.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: It is actually a brand that is has been in the making under the umbrella of a larger company known as Cygnum Biosciences.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Cygnum is really at the forefront of medical discovery and research discovery.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the show.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, everyone, welcome Max Doc, who is the founder.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm so excited to learn from you, Max.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you have a lot of great information and a lot of background information about the science.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, um, you know, I want to get started, uh Max, by your journey and how you landed in this, you know, area of science and just what led you here.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to know all the all the background, really.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so science for me is my background.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it started at uh as my earliest memories.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: My father is a scientist and a professor at Princeton University, and I was exposed to um science at a very young age.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's what was discussed around the dining room table, and so I really had an exposure um very young.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked for professors all the way through high school.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, during the summer, I worked for uh professors in their in their research labs.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then all through college, I also uh worked at at a biotech company um called Synergen.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then and then um so so that's really were was the beginning of my, you know, very early on.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I lived and breathed science, but in college, I decided that I didn't want to go work for a big company, that I I really wanted to start my own company.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I my father had started a biotech company, and he had me, I was involved in it at a very low level.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: He just basically brought me along um to meetings, so I was exposed to that whole world and watched him do it, so that enabled me to have that idea in my head.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I did create a number of startup companies that weren't successful, and then eventually my father and I decided to start a biotech company together, and that was the beginning of Cygnum Biosciences.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in around 97, 1997, 98, um, we started to form the ideas behind Cygnum.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: We started to pull the science together.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what was this your father's?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry I'm interrupting you, but was this your father's like uh like that he wanted to do this, or this was something you had, like your idea and you introduced?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's some I wanted he knew that I was following the path of being an entrepreneur, and he had technology that he thought would be commercial that we could commercialize.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that it was basically both of our ideas.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very I'm very close with my father.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he and I are are good are you know he's are good friends.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we just talked a lot and he would always guide me.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: He guided me all the way through high school, through college, in terms of who I was working for, what professors I was working for, what I was focused on.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So he he really mentored me throughout my life.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was really an organic process.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I uh we really came up with the idea together.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that that was that just that was the genesis of it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I asked you, I asked you that because I really think that when you grow up with parents who are such like truly scientists, right?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like to their core, like that's that's their passion that you it can't help but rub off, you know what I mean?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I grew up with this, like my my father is also in in science, and I grew up with science around me.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I very much um relate to your you know what you were saying.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I brought that up.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you for explaining that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Please continue.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the one the one difference is that they my my mother and my father are both academics, and so I knew I didn't want to be an academic, I didn't want that long grind playing those academic politics.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you see all the downs and the yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so he and I got together in '97, started to put the ideas on paper, and then in 2000, I moved to Princeton, New Jersey to actually start working in his lab uh to get the data to advance the science to a point where we could go raise money.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that took about three years of me doing benchwork, and we then started the comp formed the company in 2003, and the company was based on two mechanisms, two targets.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: One was G protein signaling, and the other was PP2A or a phosphatase, a phosphatase signaling, both signal transduction targets.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So my father studied these signal transduction, he was focused on signal transduction.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And what signal transduction is, is it's inside a cell, you have all these proteins that are interacting with each other, and then you have the membrane of a cell with all the receptors, and then what happens is a signal comes, binds to a receptor, that receptor then causes a signal transduction pathway to activate.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's basically how a cell makes decisions is through outside receptors, then signal transduction that tells the cell basically what to do.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And in his case, he was studying inflammation, which is relevant in so many diseases, especially diseases of aging, especially in the skin.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Skin's really uh is susceptible to inflammation.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's the it's our biggest or organ, it is exposed to the outside.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And as we all know, inflammation can happen in skin, and we're all we're all kind of battling it as we age.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um also from just being exposed to the environment, to the world, um, inflammation happens.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So he was studying G protein signaling as well as phosphatase signaling, and that was the beginning of that were that was the mechanisms by which we started the company.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And our idea, and what we did is we focused on developing, we wanted to develop drugs in a classic sense, and we do develop drugs for topical disease at Cygnum based on those different mechanisms.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we also realized that in the skincare space, there could be applications in more consumer-based products that don't have to go through that same regulatory process.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we could develop botanical extracts focused on those targets, as well as synthetic molecules focused on those targets, and then develop those as cosmetic ingredients.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we did for up to about well, well, really about a year and a half ago, I guess, when we launched Epicutis.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was the culmination of a lot of that work.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: But in the interim, over the past 20 years, we have developed drugs for topical disease, which we've licensed to, in the classic sense, the pharmaceutical company.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then we developed cosmetic ingredients that then we licensed to the cosmetic industry.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so about five, six years ago, I had the idea of creating our own formulas, our own products.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I saw in the industry that there were a lot of ingredients that weren't the best.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And both my father and I suffer from sebr dermatitis, which is a condition where you get itchy red flaking around the nasal folds and on your face.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it and we wanted to use our own technology for ourselves.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: We were developing these cosmetic ingredients, and so I would have to create my own formulas to use the products for ourselves.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I had the idea of I really didn't see in the space companies creating really simple formulas that has had as few ingredients as possible, um, but but then high concentration of actives.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I saw that didn't exist, and I wanted to create that ourselves.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought the professional channel was the preferred channel in that it's a high-touch channel.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's you know, obviously, when you go to a dermatologist's office or a medical spa, you have experts in the field that really know no skin.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And as opposed to buying something from CVS or buying something on a website, you really don't have anybody to talk to, you don't have an expert to talk to.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Consumers were just making their own decisions, and everybody has different skin, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's seven billion skin types, you know, they say there's five different skin types, but everybody's skin is unique.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought it was critical to develop the technology and the professional channel because of that reality.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so early on in the history of Cygnum, we partnered with a Japanese pharmaceutical company, or a Japanese pharmaceutical company invested in Cygnum and their roto pharmaceuticals.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was exposed to the Japanese to Japanese skincare.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw that they were they really had these elegant formulations, they didn't use a lot of preservatives or perfumes.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: They they really kept their formulas very that's actually really interesting.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: I want to, I wanna uh just pause for a second and talk about that because Japanese skincare for me has been very intriguing in that sense, exactly, of the the quality of the science and the technology and the engineering behind it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think there's a gray area, right?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, I think in the West, the way I perceive it at least, people are you know aware that you know there's a lot more science, I guess, research going on around their skincare products, and there's a fad that everyone wants to invest in Japanese beauty, Japanese skincare, but we never really hear about the science very much.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So can you uh dive into some things that maybe you saw or or noticed that were coming out in terms of like scientific innovation from Japan that were being incorporated in skincare?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that have inspired you, you know.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was one specific gentleman that inspired me, Masunori Tomora, and he created this Hadulabo line of skincare products.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's actually ended up being the the biggest selling uh moisturizer in Japan.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's yeah, that one is huge.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard of that one too, yeah, yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's and it's actually made it here to the United States, and and he was the head formulator at Roto, and he was doing a when in your a Japanese uh a global Japanese company, they have their people do tours of duty in different geographic areas, and he was actually in Buffalo, New York, and I met him and I really had uh a keen interest in what he had done, and that's when I started to have the idea of creating our own formula, but we didn't have in-house formulation at the time.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was working with these outside CMOs, and it was very limited.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: They were um not very innovative, they just used kind of a cookie-cutter approach, and I wanted to create something very unique.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had that respect for Japanese skincare, and a Japanese consumer is much more powerful than an American consumer, and and by that I mean they're much more educated about the product.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So a Japanese consumer is very demanding, much more demanding than an American consumer.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: An American consumer is much more driven by marketing, whereas a Japanese consumer is much more, they're driven by marketing, but it's much more real marketing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's based on science.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's facts, fact-driven, absolutely, yeah.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So so I so I met Massanori and built a relationship with him and actually convinced him with the permission of the CEO of Roto for him to join Cygnum and help us create this new brand.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he was he was uh excited to do that, to uh be involved in an entrepreneurial type endeavor.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's when our relationship started, and he and I brought him into Cygnum, and he and I, mostly him, started to to develop the formula based on our technology.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So now was this part of the TSC?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know you guys have a patented uh complex, and I want you to really dive into that for us if it's possible.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like the science, was he involved in that portion?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: He was not involved in the creation of those molecules.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: He was he his expertise lies in taking a molecule that has specific properties and then wedding it to a formula that enhances the activity of that molecule.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So at Cygnum, we have medicinal chemists that create synthetic molecules in a very classic drug discovery uh approach, meaning that we have these targets being the phosphatase and G proteins.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can take those proteins and we created these patented screens, then we can take a molecule.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we started with a very simple molecule called an acetylpharnosylcysteine, and it it was simply a mimetic of the tail of a small G protein, and so that was the starting point, and it basically competed for binding between a G protein and a G protein coupled receptor.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: The G protein coupled receptor is a transmembrane protein that lies in the membrane.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: One end sticks out outside the cell and the other is inside the cell, and that's a classic receptor protein.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so he simply created a mimetic or copied the tail of a G protein that would bind to that small G pro that GPCR.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the very beginning.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was the first molecule, that was his discovery that he made, and he patented that molecule, but he also patented uh a very large genus of the that chemistry.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually have thousands of molecules that we've made that are derivatives of that original an acetylfarnesylcysteine AFC molecule.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we actually developed that molecule initially and sold that molecule to Elizabeth Arden, and that was featured in their privage line of cosmetic products.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we derivatize that original molecule and then screen those derivatives against our screens against those proteins, the G proteins and the phosphatase protein, and we would make small structural modifications to the chemistry, and each modification would either tell us it's not as active or it's more active.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a classic medicinal chemistry approach to creating active, biologically active molecules.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what led us to TSC, which is a derivative of that original molecule AFC.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's how so we had that already developed when uh Massanori joined us at Cygnum, and we knew that that was a very potent molecule that was effective in skin.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so we used that to develop the lipid serum, and then we also had botanical extracts.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: We I always saw botanical extracts as being really interesting in that they there's there's a lot of epidemiology or there's a lot of evidence out there around different botanicals for their activities, and so we looked in the epidemiology looking for botanicals that had activity against that had certain physiological effects, and one of those was chia seeds, and so we screened uh hundreds of botanicals and have and got a number of hits off of that, and one of them was chia seeds.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: What what uh what physiological uh alterations were you specifically?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you mentioned inflammation, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean when you talk about G protein, I want to rewind a little bit because when you talk about G protein uh you know binding molecules, you're talking about a plethora of possibilities in the human body, which you know what I mean, we don't we can't we don't have time to go on, but what when you were designing this specifically for you know skin and uh you know targeting that organ, what did you narrow it down to in terms of your um what kind of physiolog physiological changes did you want?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we started with cell call.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: We actually started biochemically, so you would take the purified proteins and you would look for binding, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you use uh radioactive assay and you use uh you use an isotope that allows you to follow the activity and you actually radio label a molecule and look and see is it actually binding and do you get an enhanced activity?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is part of the SAR, which is a structure activity relationship studies that you do, very classic uh pharmaceutical development.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we were doing that to develop for developing drugs for topical disease, and so some of the molecules were very effective, and G protein, small G protein signaling is a regulator of inflammation.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when you get inflammation that happens in us in skin, for example, when you get exposed to sunlight and you get uh sunburn, for example, that's inflammation.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is regulated by G protein signaling.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's other there's other regulatory targets that do the same thing.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: The body just doesn't work in just one way, there's always multiple mechanisms by which regulation happens, but one of those is small G proteins, rack, RAS, and Rho, which are these small G proteins, and that regulates inflammation in a specific way.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is you'll get a inflammation will happen, and then these skin cells will signal inflammatory cells to come into the skin, the dermis and the epidermis, and actually release peroxide, which causes to kill any foreign intruder, right?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it would come in, releases peroxide bursts.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: First, neutrophils are recruited in.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: So first the first thing that happens, recruiting of your immune system to the area of damage, yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So so neutrophils come into the tissue, they they actually release peroxide to kill any foreign intruder.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you're exposed to UV, there's no foreign intruder, you're still activating those inflammatory pathways.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And those neutrophils come in, release peroxide in, and and then you also get proteases that are released, and that is what causes the breakdown of the ECM or the extracellular matrix, the collagen, the elastin that gives your skin structure.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is over time when you're exposed to U UV or environmental pollution or just general stress hormones and whatnot, you get chronic inflammation.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that chronic inflammation is what causes your skin to age.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what breaks down your the structure.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: You lose that plumpness, you lose, you get wrinkles, all those classic, but you also can get uh other problems like rosacea, um, sepderm, atopic dermatitis, and we develop drugs specific for those diseases.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what we wanted to do is develop a compound for in botanical extracts just for general calming of the skin.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't want to we didn't want too potent a molecule because then that would be a drug.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to develop something that was just good for general daily use to really reduce that daily inflammation that we all are subjected to over time.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so so that so that was the the beginning of that whole process.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So in the end we came up with TSC which was which is a mul which is the molecule that's in the lipid serum and when applied topically that has potent anti-inflammatory effects and its ability to reduce that redness reduce that edema reduce that um just overall inflammation which is critical to skin health now there's one thing that I didn't mention that's almost the 800 pound gorilla in the room which is your microbial the the microbial populations that you have on your skin and those also play a really critical role in skin health just like your just like you have microbes that are in your gut in your eye everywhere all over inside and outside of your whole body you have these microbes well I think I think it's important and I think like you know given the sophistication of the line I mean it's it's important to realize it's not just the it's not the bacteria it's what they're producing and what they're digesting and what they're you know what I mean?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: So with those those compounds are I think what people don't understand just as a little tidbit I think about the microbiome because you know how you see that right in skincare like a lot of microbiome products and I feel like people are targeting the wrong thing if you know what I mean.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like you're targeting what like what what what's the purpose right it's not just about placing bacteria but it's what's the what they make what that does to the other you know lipids and molecules found on top of the skin and so all of that.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to I just want to put that out there for everyone listening you know um there's a lot of and there's a lot of different approaches so some companies are actually creating genetically modified microbes to put on the skin or they're isolating specific strains of microbes in order like quote unquote good microbes versus bad microbes um to control certain populations and we take what we found is TSC has this dual activity.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not only an anti inflammatory but it also controls microbial growth and it it acts as a postbiotic so when you talk about the molecules that are secreted by these microbes those are those are termed postbiotics and those so all these microbes are talking to each other and they're talking to each other by expressing these postbiotic molecules that's that's their language that they speak to each other.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have a number of different microbes it's a it's a it's a forest on your face on your skin of all kinds it's a whole ecosystem that consists of and not just microbes but also but also different fungi there's mites there's all kinds of different stuff and they're all interacting they're all expressing these different postbiotic molecules that are interacting with each other and so what TSC does is it controls the growth of P acne or C acne's um and so it has that dual activity whereas the acne microbes are are critical for health you don't want to just kill all these microbes you what what happens is you get these you get too much growth right and stripping and then there's overgrowth you know in that area and a lot of that comes from people wash their face too much with these detergents and then you strip all these oils from your skin and that causes these sebaceous glands to produce too much sebum and then that's a reservoir for these microbes to feed on and then you get this growth.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so TSC is able to control the growth of these microbes to a healthier level and so it has that dual activity.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we we really believe in focusing on this microbial component to skincare but we also feel that inflammation is also critical to a skincare product.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so we take that dual approach with TSC.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting no I really like that and I think it's important to realize how important I mean you know going back to I think your father's vision is signaling how important you know understanding signaling research is when we approach skin health because that's something I feel like I I have been trying to kind of you know put out there through my little you know blurbs or whatever.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you know what you said and everything you've described here is just such a you know breath of fresh air in a lot of ways you know for me as a consumer as a scientist whatever because that level of understanding and being able to understand that this you know this molecule interacts with this molecule and then that causes this effect and that effect leads to all these things we love talking about you know like like you've mentioned the ECM and you know the the buoyancy of whatever you know all that stuff you know everyone all those buzzwords that are making up the marketing which is driving US consumerism the marketing I think is a good place to start educating because this is the level of education your marketing rep should have in my opinion at this point.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you went into that thank you so much and I want to dive into each one of the products because I know it's a new line and you guys have been very selective with your range.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to kind of just you know take it wherever uh you think is a good place to start I know you mentioned lipid serum which is a wonderful product but um you know I would love to talk about the rest of it.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's a great place to start the lipid serum.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the lipid serum it's only eight ingredients including water.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so Massanori was able to create these formulas that have none of the toxic ingredients that you might find in other products but you still the formula is still elegant.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: It feels great it goes on great now that's a you kind of see in the discussions today about oh you need these ingredients in order to make the formulas elegant and that's just not true.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: What you need to do is maybe spend a little bit more money on more expensive ingredients and then that are not toxic but more expensive and then you would have those elegant formulations.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I really saw there being a cost of goods driver driving down the quality of these formulas and so we really took a different approach you know may our cost of goods are more expensive but our but our ingredients are very safe.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: We actually are the only professional channel line of products that are EWG certified and EWG is an environmental working group it's a nonprofit organization that evaluates personal ingredients and personal care products.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: And can you Max can you take a second and just clarify something for the audience because there's a lot of talk right now and I've had to actually comment on some of the comments we've gotten about people talking about the EWG.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Can you clarify scientifically why it is valid and it really matters because I think people need to understand that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I would love for you to yeah so I think EWG is valid and matters is is because it is not an industry funded organization.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's an independent organization with toxicologists and scientists and the that that are actively trying to evaluate the safety of all these ingredients and all these products that we're all using every day.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't just do cosmetic products they also do cleaning products they do things like you you name it toothpaste all kinds of different stuff.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's important to have an independent organization that's trying to evaluate the safety of these ingredients.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know for myself that's important to me I care about what I put in my body I care about what I put on my body and I want to know what is the current scientific evidence around these different ingredients.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: The pushback on EWG is that they have been erring on the extreme side of caution which is any remote piece of evidence that might suggest that ingredient might not be safe, they actually disclose and so my feeling is I'd rather be safe than sorry.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes thank you yes at least you could make that decision for yourself if you don't think that that scientific publication or that piece of scientific evidence is compelling enough then you can make that choice but at least you have an organization that's gathering all this information and putting it in an easy to use format so people can actually take out their phone, use an app, look at the ingredients on these different products and make the decision for themselves.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just thought that was a powerful approach.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely believe it's very very powerful yeah yeah and I absolutely believe in it and you can see a lot of these companies are very slick about how they list their ingredients.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: First of all they list the ingredients so you can't actually it's so small you can't actually read the ingredients and then they take the kitchen they put in 50 60 different ingredients um and and it makes it very difficult to evaluate so one of the the core tenets of Epicutis is transparency and we list every single ingredient and we actually put it in a booklet with the product and we say why the what's the ingredient and why the ingredient is in there.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: What is it doing?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just say when I first received um the product I definitely geeked out over that booklet.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really glad that you guys have that in there it reminds me of just like old like you know days of bench research where you get you know the products for a lab, right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it comes with the little booklet like it's it's a great feeling to have that there at and it's right there the knowledge is right there.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you really want to learn you can so I love that you guys did that by the way that thank you for that.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah we we think that's really important and especially in the professional channel was if you have some brands that are direct to consumer that are doing that are being transparent that are making sure that the ingredients that are in their products are good.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: But in the professional channel it tends to be more medical and I think a lot of the medical approach isn't necessarily focused on safety it's more focused on just I don't know what it's focused on but it's not but it's not that and so um and and and I think a lot of people believe that you need harsh chemicals or harsh things that have issues around safety in order for things to be effective.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not what we believe at Cygnum and we've really shown that in our products so if you use our products they really work and even though they're really simple they have as few ingredients as possible and and and so we we believe that that's that's the best approach.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so the lipid serum it's only eight ingredients the main ingredient is TSC molecule and then you also have very high weight molecular high molecular weight hyaluronic acid that is the other real active molecule there that helps create that barrier.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a simple serum very elegant goes on very nicely doesn't interfere it plays well with others it does not got you can put makeup on over it it's it's it's very uh amendable to other products as well and then we have the hyvea cream and the hyvea cream main active is a chia seed extract that we trademarked as hyvea and that chia seed extract is enriched for omega 3 and omega 6s which are active against the phosphatase that we focus on and the phosphatase we focus on is called pp2a phosph protein phosphatase protein 2a pretty scientific term but that phosphatase is responsible for 80% more than 80% of all phosphatase activity and and that rate one of the things that that regulates is inflammation.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so our our idea is to target two different inflammatory pathways that in order to fight inflammation.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so another thing chia seed is also very good at moisturization um of of the skin and so the omega 3 and omega 6s also play that role as a moisturizer.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're fatty acid lipid like molecules and so and so um so that so that's the main focus is moisturization with the cream whereas the serum is really focused on inflammation and micro and controlling microbial growth so the hyvea cream is only 24 ingredients it is a it is a moisture thick thicker cream it's not a serum and so the omega the problem with omega 3 and omega 6 is if you're using pure omega 3 and omega 6 it gets oxidized.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so if it gets oxidized then it's inactive and so we made the discovery that omega 3 and omega 6 in the chia seed extract complex remains stable and remains active and so we that's that was really the driver and behind using chia seed um so high levels of omega 3 and omega 6 um and really focused on moisturization simple 24 ingredients eight ingredients for the lipid serum and those are our two main hero products.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we also believe that we shouldn't be using six seven eight different products every day we really wanted to simplify the routine two products um that are that it that that's all you'll need is the two different products so we don't have any we don't have any preserv you know if you you have things like people like to use retinols for example but when you're pregnant or breastfeeding you can't use retinols that should be a big gigantic red flag right yeah um yeah it's good yeah um I I'm really glad that you're saying this rather than me freaking ranting about this again and again because honestly I don't get like like like I'm just gonna say this why medical clinical dermatology at this point pharmaceutically speaking is utilizing such archaic almost uh options in treatments because retinol I did a whole post about this Max I mean I know you're really busy but genuinely I'm gonna send it to you like I literally just try to show people like look at the signaling and look what's going on and look how this is not good for your skin like you don't need this you know and it's like people just don't they don't want to let go right of these like old pharmaceutical approaches which is okay whatever but if you're still using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine and or quinine analogs for anything there's a problem okay and there's it we need to think about it in a more sophisticated way and that's where I think your line is just so brilliant obviously I mean you know that's a no problem.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's why we really wanted to change the conversation right so all these kind of old technologies even though they work hydroquinone works but like you said it's toxic and there's other ways to go about it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think in the cosmetic industry you have this you have these economic drivers that are in a way kind of corrupting the space and you don't have a lot of innovation in in that you know most of the money go not goes into marketing not product development and so you have these huge marketing budgets and you don't you know there's not there's not a whole lot of money that goes into you know I don't know the particulars of everybody's budgeting but um that that's the sense that I get no I I totally hear you you're 100% you know that's 100% true everything you know because let let's be honest you know the level of science and and the type of science we're talking about you know bench research as most people call it it requires a lot of money okay and there's a lot like buying one you know set of like primers for a you know a you know you know what I'm saying like that's like$400 or something something crazy right I don't even remember anymore but like it's a lot of money and we don't put that money towards the science and the tools we need we're putting it towards people coming up with words that they don't understand because they won't fund the science to understand them.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: You see what I'm saying?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just so yeah it's a freaking oxymoron.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you are you know you're representing real science here.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know Epicutus if you want a skincare line that's genuinely science made by scientists like real people who are making the textbooks that you know uh doctors are reading about this is the kind of line you want right here you know like let's be real that's exactly right and I I like to tell people I'm a I'm a scientist turned into a business guy.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: So my my core is uh is science and I believe in science and and then you get and then you get these products like and then you get something like a retinol and then you have to it's so unstable that you have to put all these terrible ingredients just to keep it stable.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: So on top of it being something that isn't so great you have to put even more ingredients in there that make it even more toxic.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so it's uh I was just scratching my head and I you know I'm the typical guy who you know I've in my past did my skincare consisted of a bar of ivory soap um data like that I have to force both of them to like put something on your face exactly and then I I I started to develop sebaric dermatitis in my in my uh late 30s and and that drove me towards really you know went to the dermatologist your dermatologists say here's a here's a tube of steroids whenever it flares up and then you know you if you know about steroids you know that steroids dude like they literally thin your skin I'm sorry it was no they thin your skin and they also can exacerbate different topics of diseases can right they can actually in turn certain diseases put on some products it's very so and people try to use it sparingly only during flare up but it's all self-regulated and we all know how that and that's what we wanted to create have and so it's I think I I really want to just I I also want to say this here because so many times I've had um male founders or male male CEOs or even editors are um on and they always you know the topic always comes up of how do we market skincare and skin health products to men.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: And no this is like you know if this is a solution to that just make two or three products that really work and make it in just neutral packaging and give it to them.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like as long as it works because that's what I've noticed you know if you think about it from a psychological perspective look I mean honestly um it's male and female mentality when we look at self-care products and it's just simple.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know men want the simple approach because they want what works.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: So just it's easy and I don't know why there's such a debate about it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I bring this up it's like it's I think your line I think in general if you stick to the science if you stick to science as your core you're gonna automatically be inclusive.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna automatically be you know um whatever all the buzzwords are you know what I mean?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, exactly.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and then we have a third product which is we are actually able to partner with Hydrofacial and we created a booster for them and it was their it's their first neck and decollete booster um I I liked the hydrofacial approach it was non invasive um very simple approach and so I approached those guys and they were they were very receptive and we created the uh epicutus neck and declete booster and that's been very successful as well So those were our first three products.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we developed a lipid recovery mask where we double the concentration of TSC that's in the serum.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: We double the concentration in the mask, and it's a biocellulose mask.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really also focused on post-procedure.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of these, you know, in the professional channel, you have a lot of these aesthetic procedures that are very invasive, that cre up create quite a bit of irritation, inflammation.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so the we wanted, you know, I really see I really appreciate the professional channel.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is the best place to get skincare products.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned in the beginning, that it's really the only place that you can go actually talk to an expert, you know, dermatologist or an aesthetician.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they really know skin, they work with it daily.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: They know everybody has their own issues.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so we really wanted, we really saw their business as being really important.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think beauty is important.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to really say that.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think beauty and looking good is critical.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we want to throw that out the window.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know how people how people look feel and how they look is so important to their confidence and just quality of life.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: So so we created the lipid recovery mask to use post-procedure.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, after getting a laser ablation or micro-needling or all these different procedures.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um the lipid recovery mask is really meant to help mitigate a lot of that, a lot of those problems that you get afterwards.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: So really reducing irritation, the redness, the stinging, the burning, enhance the recovery time so there's less downtime.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um we really were we really also a big part of our brand is thinking about the business of the professional channel.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's their business?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make products that can enhance their business?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the result was the lipid recovery mask.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we are and then and then in uh in March, we're coming out to complete the line, we're coming out with our oil cleansing set.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: So another problem in skincare is that people are using these detergents on their face.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that is very uh can be very damaging.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: So your stratum corneum is made up of dead skin cells, right?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it is.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so you you really want to be cogent, you want to be cognizant of how much you're stripping off of of that of that layer.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And did you literally just did a post about foaming soaps and soaps in general?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're talking about this, like about surfactants and stuff.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, everyone listening, if you want even more info, go to that post to read up on what Max is trying he's explaining here.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, please continue.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, Tamora created this oil cleanser, and most oil cleansers you would use would actually you'd put the oil cleanser on and then wash it off, but you still have this really oily film on your face.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: And especially people that are acne prone or have more greasy skin just are they are addicted to detergents, to to foaming.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to strip every piece of oil off of my face, and I want to touch my face and not have any, and I have that same very greasy T-zone.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what so what we created is an oil cleanser that when you actually add water, it has it it completely washes off and it actually leaves you with a nice dry soft feel.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we feel like we've created something really different.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't get the harsh detergent effect, um, but you but you get that soothing, it actually calms the skin down in a really nice way, and then that comes with an exfoliating enzyme powder for somebody that does want to have do some exfoliating, and we only recommend twice a week at the most to do that.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you actually would mix the exfoliating enzyme powder in with the oil cleanser, then use the use the cleanser and then the oil cleanser and then just wash off and you know do a little bit of scrubbing and and and so you have that ability to exfoliate.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but we don't recommend doing it too much.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that'll really kind of finish off the line.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we think it's a complete system with the the serum, the the the cream, and then the cleansing set um really makes that complete line.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and the mask, I mean the mask is, I know it's for post-procedure, but like I mean, masks are really great, you know what I mean?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: For especially for working women and men, like we sometimes just want to put on a mask.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Why not just, you know, maybe you can leave it on for half the time because you don't need as much, you know.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: But masks for me, I'm obsessed with them, so I have to pitch the mask.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and we recommend and we kind of recommend the consumers that they use it once a week.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great once-a-week treatment, like you're saying, um, just to kind of provide that extra additional benefit.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, absolutely, absolutely.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we we we think the same thing.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're also thinking we're also developing a neck and decollete mask as well.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we we we really feel that the the neck and the decolleté are really one of the areas that age uh the quickest and is an important area, and and that was one of the things that we were really excited about with hydrofacial.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to have you, I would love to have you back on, Max, to talk about that specific product because I think that's an area I would love to hear your explanation of the science of like the difference between the skin there versus our face, if you ever want to, or have yeah, that would be great.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be also great to do to have Tamora join me.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's uh he's an amazing uh uh source of knowledge and has spent his whole life.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's very passionate about his formulas and skincare.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um that would, I think that would also be very interesting for you and your audience as well.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be great.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yes, yes, yes.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I 100% am behind that.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope all of you listening out there, I hope you've learned a lot because this has been so amazing.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Max, so much.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, you're really, really good at explaining like science, like on a like academia level.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need to teach at schools.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do that?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like I leave that to my father.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: You need to no, no, no, no, no.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: We need both.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: Both of you need to go do guest lecturing because honestly, like we don't have enough people who are able to really explain science.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when you're able to do that, you're truly, truly a very intellectually, you know, um, just tuned in person to the real stuff.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I would love to see you do that.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, thank you so much for thank you so much for all of this and for coming on the show.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone listening, if you have not already, go check out Epicutus Skincare.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna link everything in the concept art for this episode.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: Also, we will be sending out a newsletter just about the brand and all of the science and summarizing what Max has explained.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have not signed up for our email list, please do that if uh via the link in our bio on our Instagram.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I hope you loved it and leave your comments or you know, just questions, whatever you have for Max's team, and I will definitely pass them along.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and I'll be back next time.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thank you.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Take care, everybody.
• 51:28
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• 52:35
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