Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / Curiosity as a Conflict Intervention in Divorce
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. am Tracy. And if you are a frequent flyer to this podcast our work out of DCA, you know that we approach divorce not simply as a legal event, but as a conflict process. One requires individuals to make decisions, communicate effectively and navigate high stakes emotional dynamics, often under pressure. The way conflict is handled in divorce shapes everything that comes after for the clients and for the families they're part of. If this conversation gave you something to think about or bring into your work, that's exactly the point. If you are interested in deepening your skills or learning more about our training, you can find more at divorcecoachesacademy.com. This is the work and it matters. And one of the biggest challenges we see is that while people may know what they want to say or do, they often can't access that clarity in the moment. And more often than not, what takes over instead is certainty. And I'm not talking about certainty in a good way, certainty about what's right, certainty about what's fair or what the other person is doing wrong. But certainty is not clarity here in conflict. Jacinta Gallant: Yes. Tracy Callahan: Certainty ⁓ beliefs or assumption icebergs which tend to escalate conflict because it often narrows perspective and reinforces positions. And where today's conversation comes in. We are going to explore curiosity, not as personality trait, but as a deliberate conflict intervention, a skill that can interrupt escalation, expand perspective, ⁓ and ⁓ ultimately support better decision making within the divorce process. who better to have this conversation with me ⁓ Jacinta Gallant. ⁓ if you work in the family dispute resolution space, there is no doubt in my mind that you have come across Jacinta and her work. ⁓ is a lawyer, mediator, educator, and someone who has spent a great deal of time thinking about how we engage with conflict more effectively and more authentically. Jacinta, I'm so happy to have you here. Welcome to the DCA Podcast. Jacinta Gallant: Well, thank you and thanks for all the work you're doing to support families going through separation. Yay. Tracy Callahan: Same here, same here. and I were just, I was saying like, we're known for kind of stirring it up a little, getting into some good debates on LinkedIn. So I'm really excited about this dialogue. And for all of you listeners, I'm sure it's gonna be very engaging. So let's start off, right? You talk about curiosity as a central effect of conflict engagement. How do you define curiosity in a way that goes beyond being just ⁓ open, or asking questions. Jacinta Gallant: Well, actually, that's a great lead-in because from a conflict resolution perspective, we want to employ targeted curiosity. So we're not just going to have a beer, right? It's not like our clients aren't paying us to sit and wonder, right? It not that. And yet, what's in our hearts and minds when we're curious is the essential thing that we want. Tracy Callahan: Hmm Jacinta Gallant: our clients to experience, and that is to the notion of almost everything by being curious at a time when tunnel vision, you know, is very prevalent. And so typically, I love the way you framed it, ⁓ come with this certainty of a dire outcome or certainty that you're just out to get me ⁓ for professionals engaged with clients going through a divorce, certainly that you're gonna fix it, you're gonna get it okay, you're gonna get me what I want, you're gonna get me what I'm demanding, or certainly that you will say I'm right. I'm right, right? Right? And so what happens is, as you've described, people end up working against themselves because what comes out of their mouths, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Jacinta Gallant: their behaviors in relation to the other person with whom will have an ongoing relationship of some sort, raising children, whatever that's going to be. My really expression of ⁓ my or the way I see things comes across to you as a demand, as an accusation, as a don't give a shit either. And so the struggle is that ⁓ when we at curiosity, and we look at the field that where you and I and listeners are swimming. I like to describe it this way. When feel heard and understood, and coaches know this, we ⁓ calm we experience ⁓ positive ⁓ And research I've been following talks about three dominant emotions, satisfaction, security, intention, relief, just by ⁓ my demonstration of a sincere desire to understand you. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. we know understanding is such a significant part of being able to effectively negotiate, right? To be able to have that other party, but it has to start first on the individual level. ⁓ I think when you said something really significant, right? When we're able to create those opportunities as professionals for clients to be heard ⁓ and taking that next step, right? Because ⁓ hearing in our professional work Jacinta Gallant: internal. Tracy Callahan: doesn't necessarily do all of those things. It creates further opportunities for them, the client, to be curious about themselves. And when you're talking about those three domains, we love to talk about the scarf domains, right? Status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. And when those present as these internal threats, creating this increased internal conflict, it transcends into an external conflict, right? If it's continuously perceived as a threat. So when we as resolution specialists can be curious and our work of creating those opportunities for clients to ⁓ what's going on for themselves, we're opening actually the door in ⁓ I consider the foundational steps to working in conflict resolution for the individual, right? Because ⁓ as professionals can show up, but we can't do it for them, which I think I just talked about that the day. Jacinta Gallant: And you use the word. So the challenge for us working in alignment with clients who are going to participate in a process that we're not involved in. I mean, I really think that there's such an important piece around coaching that we need to figure out the integration, but to carry on with the concept of targeted curiosity. What happens as well so in 2017, I just took time out because I was really pissed off with the way that we were managing conflict resolution within family law, right? In collaboration, in mediation, in all of it, just, it was laying over a negotiating model that was quite transactional. And so we were trying to adjust how we behave in these moments, but we were doing it in a model that doesn't value the relational conflict piece. So, Tracy Callahan: Yes, very trendy. Jacinta Gallant: So when I began to study a different way to look at conflict, it's called the insight approach or insight mediation. And so it defines conflict and this will make sense to people who work with people anywhere in the world, it's a pattern of behaviors that arises from a sense of threat. So ⁓ I perceive that what you're saying or doing or even what you're not saying or not doing, threatens something that I value, whether it's my identity, my status, my sense of well-being, how I perceive myself to be a good parent or a good coworker or a good friend. All of those things are happening at that relational level. So the minute what you say or do or don't say or do me off or gets me into the point of feeling insulted, offended, we would define that as my natural human reaction to a ⁓ threat. It's what many of us would call defensiveness. Tracy Callahan: Right, well, it's organic, right? It's a nervous system almost acting on its own behalf to protect whether that threat is perceived or not is irrelevant. Jacinta Gallant: Right, exactly. Like there might actually be a grizzly bear on the trail or there might not be, but my perception of it's going to impact my decision making. And so from a conflict resolution perspective, rather than looking at conflict as a competition between what you want and need or hope for and what I want and need and hope for, which is the negotiating model. And it worked very well when people are emotionally ready to make those decisions. It's just that... Tracy Callahan: Yeah. when they're ready, I think. Yes, yes. Jacinta Gallant: In family disputes, we know that they're almost never ready in the beginning. Tracy Callahan: Right, well, which makes sense, right? Because you're taking this family, I say it's the biggest joke in divorce, right? You take these two individuals who couldn't get their shit together for whatever reason, right? Communication breakdowns, we go through the whole thing, could not figure out what it was going to take to negotiate the terms to stay in the marriage. Now all of a sudden have to come together in some magical worlds. Right. And reach resolution and all of these items that for 15, 20, 30 years couldn't reach resolution on in the marriage. So we set up people for this failure. And I think that the system, although intended, I love everything the dispute resolution movement was intending to do. Right. To create opportunities for people to resolve their differences, their difficulties, their conflicts amongst themselves without intervention by higher beings, AKA a magistrate or judge. And yet in that very process, right, we have over-systematized that process where we then kind of put these people into this with these assumptions that the work of a mediator or a neutral is somehow going to throw some fairy dust at these people and they're gonna show up. regulated and using effective communication and good strategies and yeah. Jacinta Gallant: And guess what? It's all about us. Right? It's all about us, the professions. Come on in, let me help you. And so the challenge is that if you go back to the basic principles of the model, separate the people from the problem? Like seriously? And so, it's such a joke. Tracy Callahan: Yes, yes, it's true. It's like that I'd say it's the biggest joke in principle negotiation divorce because all the problems are the person. Jacinta Gallant: And if you ask people who are so well-intended, meeting leaders, collaborative lawyers, coaches, financial advisors, people who are really trying to help, I'm like, so what's the problem? What's getting in the way of you doing the job that you want to do? And when people let down their guard, they're like, the clients, and more specifically, the client's behavior. Because all I see in relation to my co-parent or former partner, Tracy Callahan: Again. Mm. Jacinta Gallant: What I'm seeing is the behavior, what I'm hearing, and what I'm interpreting from the behavior. And so if we sit down and get together and talk about the funny joke of our day jobs, we then blame the behavior of the clients on our inability to do the job, which is supposedly to get to this outcome. And it's so backwards. So separate the people from the problem. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I love that framework because it's kind of happening now on a parallel space, right? On these multiple dimensional levels because, we have now the mediator or the professional doing that and yet the clients doing that as well. Jacinta Gallant: Right, and so the way most family mediators are trained is not consistent with the way coaches would be trained. And yet the way I was trained as a mediator was very consistent with that elicitive, curious, really engaging client in their own discovery so that they, and this is where insight mediation and the insight approach to conflict really nails it. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Jacinta Gallant: Their discovery internally about themselves brings the value of curiosity to them. Satisfaction, security, tension relief. It's just, it's scary to focus on self-discovery when your whole world has been torn asunder. Tracy Callahan: Right. Well, there's vulnerability there. And again, that perceived threat that this person's coming from. So, so what happens? What do you think when curiosity is replaced by certainty and conflict, right? So this, this idea or this pursuit of being right or even fair, those are barrier, what we identify as barriers in the work that we do in, conflict coaching on an individual level. Jacinta Gallant: Yeah. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: How do you see that interfering with curiosity and the work and how professionals are supporting that process, if you will? Jacinta Gallant: Okay, so one of the things is most important, I'll go back. So if we define conflict as this pattern of behaviors, that's defending. I'm defending, you're defending, we're defending. And so that there's the chance to ⁓ hear and understand one another is because I'm defending. And because defending, I'm ⁓ not curious, cognitively impaired, I'm certainty, my certainty of knowing is so strong that you can't penetrate it by coaching, encouraging, cajoling, or the people from the problem. You can't just make it happen. And so the inside approach to conflict would say, huh, if you noticed offending, stop telling, stop trying to make anything happen, stop feeding the defending cycle by doing exactly what the client's doing. Their ⁓ of knowing is coming at you. There's certainly their... Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: pointing fingers, their raised voice, their blaming or fear-based language, all those things that we experience when we're working with an individual or both parties, happens like all the time. a lot of times outside of a coaching model, you're trying to contain it to get to the future-focused outcome. And so when people aren't ready to go there, we're like, ⁓ you suck, or they suck, or I suck. So I want to get to curiosity. Remember, if we define the conflict as a pattern of behaviors rather than the fact that you want something that I also want and we've got to negotiate over who gets what, okay? Then we, all of us in conflict resolution can notice behaviors that suggest effectiveness, pointing fingers, leaning in, raised voices, demands, repeating, repeating, repeating, explaining, explaining, explaining, interrupting. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Jacinta Gallant: those normal human behaviors, we learn to notice them in an insight mediation or insight approach to conflict process. And then we have a strategy for what to do. Okay, so that's the case. Targeted curiosity means when I notice the defending. So again, many of us what defensiveness looks like and we definitely, if we spend time reflecting, we know what it feels like for ourselves. The thing that I like to make very clear is it's not the time to tell. It's not the time to contain. It's the time to explore. And it seems scary to the coach mediator. it's less scary to the client because We, in Insight, would focus on the threat. And so ⁓ it's easier in one-on-one. And for coaches, there's a beautiful relationship that you build so that you're not worried about what we call a threat-based question. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. respect and rapport, right? And that's, that's earned over the time of working. So yes, it makes self discovery a bit more a ⁓ place, if you will. Jacinta Gallant: for us. And the sharing that the client might do is in this trusted relationship. The other party's not there. this works in mediation as well when both parties are in the room. So the idea is that we want to ask about the threat. ⁓ we might come at it in different ways. But as an example, my god, it's a... Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: It's just, I don't know why we can't just do it this way. I just want it to be fair and she just will not see it my way. I just want it to be fair. You'll hear dispute resolution people say fair. a four letter word. Fair is so frustrating. Blah, blah. when they say fair and there's an eye roll among the professionals. Insight would ask a question. What you word will happen if you're not able to reach an agreement that seems fair? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: What concerns you most about the idea that you might find a way through this that seems fair? Or, the flip side of threat is hope. ⁓ What you hoping will be better in your life if you... ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yes, I was just going to Yes. Or what would you need to ensure that there is a level of fairness, right? So Jacinta Gallant: Well, we want to ask what do you worry will happen if you don't? And so that's what's interesting. Tracy Callahan: Right, right. Well, that's your, We're working towards that zone of potential agreement by sort of defining those best and worst case scenarios for the client or helping them discover it. Jacinta Gallant: And beyond scenarios, it's discovering those internal values around. is it? So what I'll hear people say that's different from what I used to hear, they'll say, in insight mediation, our curious questions are intended to catch people in that pondering moment, which is what coaches want to do. Huh, that's a good question. Or, ⁓ I never thought of it that way. And so. Tracy Callahan: Mmm. Jacinta Gallant: When you come to conflict resolution from an insight lens, you're simply probing for insights. You're using curiosity, not so that you can get information necessarily, because using it strategically and targeted to understand the threat that's leading to the disruptive behavior. Or, the other part of this is really helpful, or to understand what is the interpretation you're giving to this moment that's making you so certain that there's a dialogue come? And so it goes to interpretation and threat. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. you've right? You've ⁓ held hats, worn many hats, carried many of ⁓ different roles in your across sort of law, mediation, ⁓ education. ⁓ do see the limits of each of those roles when it comes to developing curiosity? Because I think when we're able to look at those limits, we're able to create opportunity. Jacinta Gallant: Hmm. Well, I mean, this is where beauty of divorce coaching comes in. OK, so first of all, it's really important in any conflict moment to know what your role is. Sometimes you're in it. Sometimes you're you're you're even if you think that you're on it ⁓ the person who's managing other people's conflict, sometimes it turns back and suddenly you're in it. So knowing what your role is in any given moment makes a big difference. And so the challenge for educators, that is, I'm thinking of child specialists, people that come with a mental health background on parenting, education and information, lawyers who have an obligation to give legal advice and financial advisors who are organizing and digesting information in a way that is intended to be helpful. The challenge we have is that ⁓ our is to inform Tracy Callahan: Absolutely. Jacinta Gallant: educate, advise, guide, anything that's focused on moving the line further down towards outcome, we can risk getting into a telling mode every time a client resists. So the moment of telling when someone's, you know, I had a client. My 25 year old son wants me to tell their father that he told him five years ago he doesn't want to meet the girlfriend and he needs to stop bugging him. So I had a client. So you get these clients who, so I'm going to do that. And you want to just say, no, like, no, it won't work. So it's the interesting thing in my role as mediator. My role is to elicit. in this case it was a mom, her discovery not only of what are the values that she's hoping will be in alignment with doing this thing that her adult son apparently asked her to do What is she, I want her to reflect on the potential outcome without saying, how do you think that's gonna work? So what are you hoping will be better by doing that on his behalf? What are you worried might happen if you do that on his behalf? And so, many times our expertise and experience leads us to wanna get into a telling mode. ⁓ ⁓ guess this happens for coaches. I'm a coach, I can't. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. I I'm not gonna sit here and say it doesn't. I think there are lots of divorce coaches who are not trained in the foundations of alternative dispute resolution that takes self-actualization away from the client and engage in a derivative telling process. were just talking about the previous episode with Andrea. mean, we just spent ⁓ time dialoguing this because ⁓ is, right? There is this innate thing of, I wanna help you. I don't think it comes from bad place. But as soon as we take that autonomy away from that agency, away from that individual, right? It's this idea that we're triaging something when we tell, right? can happen, but what does then ⁓ happen ⁓ that? And see this in ⁓ conflict One of my biggest frustrations with mediators, I only practice joint session. I cannot stand people who do shuttle. ⁓ for this very reason that there are missing opportunities. ⁓ know, attorney going to protect clients and ⁓ can't be in the same room together ⁓ actually creating the barriers to those clients then who once that attorney has left the AKA, ⁓ the divorce process, it's done, these two individuals have no idea how to communicate with one another. Jacinta Gallant: Okay, well seriously, first of all, shuttle mediation needs to be called something else. It is not mediation. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah, well, it should be called what it is caucusing with the intent getting back to. Right. Yes. Yeah, you're right. Yes. Jacinta Gallant: and also negotiation. Because it's all about the transnational model and getting to the end. honestly, is so bad, I've made it my mission to, like I'm always posting, call it something else, call it something else. So that. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I'll join that bandwagon. What do want me to start trending? I'll hashtag it tomorrow. Just tell me what it is, Jacinta. Jacinta Gallant: Exactly. Calling something else a I'm it assisted negotiation because it fits the transactional model. ⁓ So the challenge we were talking about roles. So the challenge we have is that if we're in silos divorce coaches are supporting clients to engage effectively but have no, let's see, no role ⁓ the parts. Tracy Callahan: It's transaction. Mm. Jacinta Gallant: where they're making decisions live and in the moment, whether it's in connection with a collaborative process or with, have a challenge because the support that you're giving them is, here's where I have a problem, is the support you're giving them is sending them into a negotiating model that doesn't value relational conflict, that doesn't attend their relationship, even if they want to. I mean, honestly, people are not, most of the family mediators and collaborative professionals, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Mm. Jacinta Gallant: They're not intending to be transactional because they think that deep and meaningful dialogue is important. It's just that the model itself urges forward when there may need to be time paid to this. So I'd like to say curiosity is actually more efficient. Most concerned, someone's going blah, blah, blah. I'm noticing defending behavior. know that person and maybe both, Tracy Callahan: Right. Correct. Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: is cognitively impaired from learning anything new. Possibilities are not emerging. There's nothing here but certainty of a dire outcome or certainty that my interpretation of you is accurate because you are a jerk and you're out to get me. All of that stuff. So comes in is if you conflict as a pattern of defending behavior, when you notice the behavior, you do something with it. So you immediately ask. What are you most concerned about right now? Or what do you worry will happen if you try that? Or when people are quite flooded and they're like the example that you and Andrea talked about, just tell me what to do. They're so flooded. comes. And so rather than informing clients about what I can't do, that's not my role to tell them what to do, rather than any of that, which I used to do, I would be All right, wow. So what are you most concerned about? Which requires the engagement of the mind and the heart, and most people can respond to that. And if they can't, then you know they're flooded beyond, and then you're choosing a different ⁓ support. But asking specifically about the threat is so simple. It's just we don't wanna do it. Lawyers don't wanna do it for sure because Tracy Callahan: Yeah, processes needs to shift. Jacinta Gallant: They're trained, we, I just don't buy it. so ridiculous not to ask a question you don't know the answer to. mean, lawyer certainty of knowing is like an occupational hazard. So that no matter what, if you love someone who's a lawyer, you have to appreciate that that training impacts the ability to be curious. They have to work very hard. However, Tracy Callahan: Absolutely. Jacinta Gallant: They can and they do because every lawyer that comes to Insight Training with me goes, what a relief. I don't have to know all the answers. Tracy Callahan: It's one of the reasons why we've seen an increase of attorneys going to get certified with us in course coaching on the individual level, just simply because they want to do it differently for themselves. Their personal and professional dissatisfaction is at a level where they themselves are looking to do it differently, right? So I think there's so many exciting opportunities Jacinta Gallant: Yeah. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: for individuals and I just wanna really make sure I get to this because you've also developed a lot of amazing tools support this in addition to your training and insight mediation, right? And I wanna make sure we're talking about some of these tools, right? So ⁓ have you, you a variety of products, a program you have developed based upon your experience. Jacinta Gallant: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: in what you've seen and in relational conflict, targeted curiosity, people's scope, meaning being able to stay in these lanes, but then supporting this process, even if it's not something that they were centered or trained to do. So would you mind just kind of sharing with our listeners a little bit about of the intention behind that? I mean, ⁓ you're listening as you're getting it, I understand why. what was sort of the underlying focus for that and what are you hoping some of these tools create as opportunities to support this targeted curiosity ⁓ facilitate? Jacinta Gallant: So I think I've already mentioned, I was just kind of sick of everything in 2017 and like, I want to be happier at work again. And so I asked my favorite clients, what was it like to work with me? Back then I was still litigating, not much, but I still, so I asked, when I say my favorite clients, not necessarily the easiest ones, but the clients with whom I had a relationship that we, we managed stuff together. So litigation, mediation, traditional negotiation, and collaborative practice cases. And I asked those clients, what was it like to work with me? And I learned so much. mean, don't ask enough. What's it like to be your client? They really valued the curious questions I had. They really, they thought you asked great questions. And often had better answers like on my drive home or the next day. Huh. Turns out that Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: planting of the seed of inquiry some reflection. So I learned that. They really appreciated that I had an interest in the whole family, right, beyond, ⁓ that I wanted to have conversations that went beyond facts, figures, and the law. And they were wondering how much that conversation was costing them, right? So they were engaging with me at an hourly rate that while they appreciated the conversation, they were really great to say, but sometimes I wondered. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Jacinta Gallant: not about the value of it, but honestly, what's it costing you? So there was an apprehension. There was a couple of people, particularly highly functioning, know, typical, like CEO get shit done people who said, know you're really smart and you explain things, but I wasn't getting it. And I felt stupid. So I didn't ask. And so. The information that I was conveying wasn't getting anywhere anyway. And so I'd explain again or try again. And that was really hard to hear. then finally, they're just like, you know what? ⁓ think I could have been way better prepared for each ⁓ of our work together. So I also studying insight at the time. So I knew I had to create something that would elicit, that would support self-discovery first, getting back to who am I? How do I show up? What are my values? Beyond goals, deeply like who am I? So a lot of the work therapists do, what coaches are doing to support clients going into this next phase ⁓ find out who they're gonna be into the future. So I poured all of that into my very first resource called Our Family in Two Homes and seeing that my colleagues around the world were like, that's cool. So it's been now Our Family in Two Homes. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: being used around the world mediators and coaches really it. Lawyers sometimes struggle to understand how it helps clients. it was a huge blind spot for me because, well, I'm a lawyer too. And all I say is, OMG. So what I'm excited about is my five-year journey from startup to finally figuring out, think, who my customers are, sort of my series resources, is those and divorce professionals who value the client engaging in their own discovery and not having to be all about the time that they're with me. I ⁓ it's like, do not to be the show here. Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: And so the resources now we have our family in two homes, our family in a few homes for gray divorce. So people who have adult children. was beginning, know, Carol from Southern California who wrote Home Will Never Be The Same Again, and it writes regularly in Psychology Today about the gray divorce. When I read the book and began to understand how often I accepted my client's version of, well, at the kids are grown. So we would be in a more transactional thing. ⁓ it's just the money. I'm like, my God, we've missed so much here. So now our family in a few homes guides the reflection in the context of adult children and future milestone events and future perhaps grandchildren and all of that, ⁓ relationships that will be sustained after separation. And ⁓ pre-nup one we created designing our future together, which is super fun. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I love, love, Jacinta Gallant: It's super fun. And I hope divorce coaches will, I mean, in some way it's like after divorce coaching, could there be getting ready for your next relationship? Is that ever going to be a thing? so, so it, it brings the same a mix of, you know, magazine quiz, introvert, big picture detail, like that sort of big personality type exploration and looking at public style, but truly engaging clients in an exercise. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah. Jacinta Gallant: about their values. Tracy Callahan: Right. which is complimentary, not substitutive, right? Complimentary. And, and I really want to stress this, right? Because ⁓ love tools, right? tools need to be used purposefully, right? ⁓ I, can't stand somebody who just, you walk into mediation, sorry, all you mediators with this, like a hundred page ⁓ pre that everybody has to fill ⁓ out. right. So, so being able to use Jacinta Gallant: ⁓ my god. Tracy Callahan: these resources effectively, efficiently, with intention, with purpose, not just busy work, not just because it's something, right? And I think, so can you just, before we wrap, speak a little to how divorce coaches can utilize some of these. Jacinta Gallant: Yeah, okay. This is my latest insight. Like last year, I was paying more attention to divorce coaches because we're finally getting some divorce coaches in my part of Canada. I'm because I'm a very busy mediator. I hardly practice just law anymore. I want... ⁓ no, I do know that in my part, okay? Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. We have a program in Canada, you know, we have a civic training. No, agree. There is for how big Canada is, there is a shortage of professional practicing divorce coaches. Jacinta Gallant: But because of colleagues in New Zealand who are using the Our Family Tools resources in divorce coaching, I'm like, yeah. So here's one thing, there's two things. One, initially I thought, ⁓ if you're a therapist or a coach, this would be good, but you you're already doing this? Only told by therapists and coaches. Yeah, it aligns with everything we're doing, but it enhances the client experience. It's the client experience that I focused on. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: And so I'm hearing from people who are, you meaningful mediation, meaningful mediators to just give it that phrase, not transactional coaches and therapists is that it primes the pump because the resource prepares the client with their initial self-discovery so that you can guide them through your coaching process. And in the case of our family in two homes, safely, meaningfully hand off when it's time, when they may be moving into mediation or they're getting legal advice, because the resources themselves take the client from self-discovery into practical questions about parenting, support, and property without advising on the law so that there's no risk anyone stepping out of their lane. The self-reflections that start in the beginning, are carried throughout each topic, parenting, support, income expenses, that sort of question, ⁓ even how you're gonna resolve questions around property. So my latest excitement is how easy it is now for someone who's working with a coach or working with a co-parenting mediator as an example, someone who's only the most important part, ⁓ but doing that piece and not the client a resource that they can carry with them the next. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: the next person, the next professional. And when we're all integrated in a true collaborative team, carries forward, it carries from one role to the other. So, that's the part I'm excited about because divorce coaches in my experience aren't yet, and maybe I'm not sure how we're gonna create our relationships again, because I wanna know how my clients are being supported if I'm a mediator. And I'm gonna be glad that you're there. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, listen, it's a real issue. I think, you know, as we work towards standards of practice and trying to, you know, sort of systematize standards of practice so that there's not these, you know, definitions of divorce coaching, which is challenging. mean, I find myself also arguing with people who ⁓ there a group of individuals who Jacinta Gallant: That'll work. Lylos, I'm like, do we? Tracy Callahan: Did the history of how divorce coaching happened out of applied psychology? And that's not at all what happened in the history of divorce. Yes, it's very similar. So, you know, we're gonna constantly keep hitting the pavement and screaming from the rooftops and raising the bar because our clients deserve it. And one of the things that I think resonated most when you were sharing, you know, the sort of why behind what you were doing. Jacinta Gallant: Yeah, it's well, it's like my beef with mediation when it's. Tracy Callahan: Divorce coaches extremely good at that inquiry, that self-discovery, right? Moving through that thinking and feeling and how that thinking and feeling impacts behavior. Now overlaying it with understanding conflict theory and conflict engagement ⁓ and undesirable repetitive patterns of relational conflict and ⁓ understanding they have choices. But this is the piece that really sticks with me. ⁓ A of that reflection continues on well out of that session. And that's where I see such ⁓ piece ⁓ the work that you're doing ⁓ can be ⁓ tremendous resource with divorce coaches for the clients is continuing that reflection, continuing that thought process where that work doesn't just stop at the end of 60 minutes once every week. Jacinta Gallant: Yeah. And it doesn't stop. And sorry, but we still in some ways have to protect them from what might happen if they engage the wrong lawyers, right? ⁓ that whole piece here is that, wow, I mean, I'm I want more divorce coaches to be using our family in two homes because, a divorce one, because it enhances your role. And it in some ways offers a protective layer to say, ⁓ you know what? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Jacinta Gallant: because it'll say your divorce professional includes coaches, therapists, lawyers, and mediators around the world who want to help families have a better and healthier transition. It enhances your role because the clients have something to reflect on at home in addition to all the other things that you do. But I do think that my mission right now, it's kind of like, start here. If we can get people to start with a resource or a coach, or a mediator who's a meaningful mediator, what the future holds for their family is profoundly improved. ⁓ So we're launching our Family in Two Homes to the public because I just, and in it, it's like how to find the right separation professional. But the current professional resources that's used by coaches and therapists and mediators and lawyers the thing that I would love to hear more divorce coaches using. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, it's significant. Jacinta Gallant: because it enhances the role and supports the. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, so we're going to put some stuff in the show notes, but is there a place where you want to share to direct coaches to learn more about the product? Jacinta Gallant: Well, yeah, mean, honestly, one of the best ways to do it is to have a bit of a webinar, but regularly ⁓ like at noon today with the Brits, I'll be talking about how to use these client tools in any role that you're in in family dispute resolution. And so I will just invite divorce coaches to, well, to in touch because we'll give you a free access to look at, to look around and ⁓ like and sure you will. then become part of the global community. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, wonderful. Well, we're looking at doing a continuing ad at DCA, but there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast that are not directly in our community that wouldn't have access to that. So I want to make sure that individual listeners have the ability to check out Jacinta is always doing webinars and you can go to our website. And our goal is also to continue to put good resources in people's hands that aligns with our standards of practice and our ethics in working with clients in truly working on an individual level to develop the skills to productively engage in conflict because the conflict is not mysteriously gonna go away. ⁓ I really thank you so much for this valuable conversation. ⁓ What stands out for me is that curiosity isn't Jacinta Gallant: It's so. Tracy Callahan: It's not, right? This idea of targeted curiosity, right? And it's not just a mindset. It is this active intervention in conflict, right? And that's what allows somebody to pause, both in terms of understanding their own values and what we talk about in our work at DCA, this ability of understanding, not necessarily agreeing, Jacinta Gallant: No. Yeah. No! Tracy Callahan: but trying to understand what somebody else's interests are and what to them and what values. And that's how we ⁓ support that thread, that shared meaning that works in supporting clients and reaching agreements. ⁓ ⁓ Jacinta Gallant: Yes. So important. mean, children, children is why we're all doing this. Tracy Callahan: And children, yes, family, children, the sanctity ⁓ of that. And we know in a process like divorce, there's so much happening at one time, but that shift ⁓ incredibly meaningful. Not for the individuals involved and the family, but I wanna say for the professionals, and I think you really highlighted that. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective. Jacinta Gallant: Well, thanks for having me. Tracy Callahan: Thanks. So if you're listening, this conversation resonates. This is exactly the work we do in divorce coaching, not fixing the conflict, but helping individuals change ⁓ they show up within it. If you'd like to learn more about DCA's approach to divorce coaching, you can find us at divorcecoachesacademy.com. Thanks again for listening. Thank you, Jacinta. ⁓ you will join us yet again at another intriguing Thank you.