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Female Firsts: Jarena Lee · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
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Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today it
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Speaker 1: is time for another edition of Female First, which means
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Speaker 1: we are joined by the wonderful, the magnificent Eves Hi.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, happy to be here.
0:29
Speaker 1: It's so nice to have you. We were very very
0:33
Speaker 1: lucky listeners. We got to hang out with Eve's I
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Speaker 1: R L as they say, in Washington, DC recently and
0:43
Speaker 1: it was so great. It was so great seeing you.
0:46
Speaker 1: We did a panel together on Better Banter. Both Samantha
0:50
Speaker 1: and I said that you were a very steady presence
0:53
Speaker 1: when we were so anxious, and we really appreciated that.
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Speaker 2: So it was a it was a really it was
0:59
Speaker 2: a good time. It was a good time.
1:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we weren't there that long, but I feel
1:03
Speaker 3: like we got a good amount of like balance of
1:06
Speaker 3: our time working in our time, like actually being able
1:10
Speaker 3: to step outside.
1:10
Speaker 2: And breathe fresh air. Yeah, so that was that was nice.
1:15
Speaker 4: I feel like we were bonding. Maybe I was bonding
1:17
Speaker 4: a little too much.
1:18
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I mean what would life be if
1:22
Speaker 3: you don't actually try to connect with the people you're
1:25
Speaker 3: interacting with.
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Speaker 4: It's true, but you know some people don't, so you know, like, yeah,
1:29
Speaker 4: this is but it was amazing. Before I get too
1:31
Speaker 4: negative about myself, but it was amazing. It was such
1:34
Speaker 4: a good time. I feel like we got to meet
1:35
Speaker 4: new people. Uh it was nice having you and around
1:38
Speaker 4: because you are the extrovert of our group. Yeah, you were.
1:41
Speaker 4: You were the one that would like walk get into
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Speaker 4: a place, immediately start talking to a stranger. And and
1:47
Speaker 4: I would just look at each other like do we
1:49
Speaker 4: stand here, do we join the conversation?
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Speaker 2: What do we do?
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Speaker 3: I'm in denial right now because I would not describe
1:56
Speaker 3: myself as an extrovert.
1:59
Speaker 2: For the event.
2:00
Speaker 4: You really were. You went out there and I was like, ah,
2:02
Speaker 4: she's talking to everybody. I'm just gonna sit back and watch.
2:06
Speaker 3: Maybe on some spectrum, somebody's spectrum, and that's fair our spectrum.
2:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're very much extraverting the three of us.
2:18
Speaker 2: Maybe it's like the networking spectrum.
2:21
Speaker 1: You were very extroverted, and we were like Samantha and
2:24
Speaker 1: I were like, don't look our way.
2:27
Speaker 4: Looking down trying to find our footsteps and that fall,
2:30
Speaker 4: but don't don't look up. They're staring at you. At
2:32
Speaker 4: one point, Anie did say, don't make eye contact move.
2:38
Speaker 2: I did. I know why that way.
2:41
Speaker 4: It was for a good reason, but I feel like
2:43
Speaker 4: that's one of those those comments.
2:45
Speaker 2: I was like you, oh yeah, yes, us. Yeah.
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Speaker 3: For listeners, y' all know how it is when you're
2:49
Speaker 3: around a bunch of people who are new and.
2:51
Speaker 2: Old who uh you know, I can get kind of awkward.
2:55
Speaker 3: In situations when you haven't seen somebody in a really
2:57
Speaker 3: long time, and you gotta stay per professional.
3:02
Speaker 2: You do you do?
3:04
Speaker 1: So, Samath and I did a kind of brief recap
3:08
Speaker 1: of our thoughts about the trip, but Eves, do you
3:11
Speaker 1: have any any thoughts you'd like to share about our
3:14
Speaker 1: time in DC.
3:16
Speaker 3: I think it was just nice to do a panel
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Speaker 3: together overall, because we've never done a panel together before,
3:21
Speaker 3: and y'all have been doing the show for a really
3:24
Speaker 3: long time, and I've been coming on doing female first
3:26
Speaker 3: for a really long time. So I think it just
3:28
Speaker 3: made sense for us to talk about banter because that's
3:30
Speaker 3: what we've been doing for so long. But was also
3:33
Speaker 3: nice to get out of these little rectangular windows and
3:37
Speaker 3: into real life and talk to people and talk to
3:42
Speaker 3: each other. So I think that was a breath of
3:45
Speaker 3: fresh air. That's just a general comment for me, You
3:48
Speaker 3: would think that we would have done something like this
3:50
Speaker 3: together before, but we haven't.
3:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I feel like we did get a lot
3:54
Speaker 4: of good feedback from people saying that we did a
3:56
Speaker 4: good job. We had good banter nah.
3:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that the conference has it available
4:05
Speaker 3: via podcast now and I think people might have to
4:08
Speaker 3: pay for that, but if folks are interested in hearing
4:12
Speaker 3: the panel, it's called better Banter that we did at
4:14
Speaker 3: podcast Movement.
4:15
Speaker 2: You can listen to that. Yes, I almost.
4:19
Speaker 1: Had a heart attack this morning when I opened my
4:23
Speaker 1: email box and I had fifty emails.
4:28
Speaker 4: I'm assuming that that mistake because I sat there, I
4:31
Speaker 4: was like, what is happening? Did I do? And then
4:33
Speaker 4: because I was half asleep when I saw that, I
4:35
Speaker 4: was like did I just imagine that? Because I quick
4:39
Speaker 4: quickly deleted all of them, and then I was like, wait,
4:41
Speaker 4: did I dream that?
4:42
Speaker 2: I love to know that.
4:43
Speaker 3: You that's how you handle working. That's yeah, you do.
4:46
Speaker 3: You don't try to check the veracity. If you really
4:49
Speaker 3: need this thing, if it's legitimate, you just toss it
4:51
Speaker 3: in the trash. Everybody, the really important letter in the mail.
4:57
Speaker 3: When you see those scam letters in the mail, you
4:59
Speaker 3: know the ones that try to make look official where
5:01
Speaker 3: you have to tear the sides off and my like
5:03
Speaker 3: hand ran in the front. Do you just you just
5:05
Speaker 3: automatically throw them in the trash.
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Speaker 4: It's according to whether or not where it's from and
5:10
Speaker 4: who is from. I'm like, if I don't know how
5:12
Speaker 4: you would be, Like, if it's a stranger from, I'm like, yeah, no, I.
5:16
Speaker 3: Hope you haven't thrown any checks away.
5:19
Speaker 4: If someone's sending me a random check, I'm gonna think
5:21
Speaker 4: that's a fraud too, Like the amount of fraud that
5:24
Speaker 4: has happened with mail, especially that I'm like, I'm not
5:27
Speaker 4: trying to get me. I'm not gonna do this. I'm
5:29
Speaker 4: not that's the level I'm at to be fair. But yeah, no,
5:32
Speaker 4: Like when those emails there are all repeat from like
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Speaker 4: a generic I was like, yeah, this is just feeling
5:37
Speaker 4: up my inbugs and any notes. I don't like notifications
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Speaker 4: like that, So I'm like, it's got to go.
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Speaker 1: It's got I immediately often lament no one reads my emails,
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Speaker 1: and this is I would be giving me further doubts.
5:50
Speaker 1: Just to clarify, basically, podcast movement since a notification every
5:56
Speaker 1: time they upload it one of the panels for you
5:59
Speaker 1: to listen to.
6:00
Speaker 2: So it was that? What that was? Yeah, I thought
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Speaker 2: it was a mistake. Yeah, great, thank you.
6:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was fIF It was like forty five
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Speaker 1: emails and I had five other things, I think, But
6:10
Speaker 1: it was a lot.
6:11
Speaker 2: It was a lot.
6:13
Speaker 4: It was a lot. Y'all need you to condense that
6:15
Speaker 4: to whomever sent those emails.
6:16
Speaker 2: Thank you for doing your job. What did that miss?
6:21
Speaker 2: What has gone wrong?
6:24
Speaker 4: It reported me? I've been banned from podcasts.
6:27
Speaker 2: Damn damn it? Who it happened onto my next career.
6:44
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about the person you brought
6:46
Speaker 1: today is because we talked about religion a lot on
6:50
Speaker 1: this show, a lot, a lot, a lot, and I
6:53
Speaker 1: just thought this was a really fascinating story.
6:55
Speaker 2: So who did you bring for us today? So I
6:58
Speaker 2: brought Jerina Lee.
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Speaker 3: I am excited to talk about her too, because y'all
7:02
Speaker 3: talk about religion a lot, but I feel like I
7:04
Speaker 3: haven't brought a lot of religious people on for female first,
7:08
Speaker 3: So I am excited too. Jarina Lee was the first
7:11
Speaker 3: woman preacher in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and she
7:16
Speaker 3: was the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography,
7:19
Speaker 3: and those two things are huge and just kind of disparate.
7:24
Speaker 3: Like she has this big religious background, and I think
7:28
Speaker 3: the autobiography thing just kind of happened tangentially. And I
7:32
Speaker 3: don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I
7:35
Speaker 3: just I love that she did write about herself in
7:39
Speaker 3: the ways that she did, so I'm grateful.
7:41
Speaker 2: For her doing that. So yeah, should we get into it.
7:45
Speaker 2: Let's get into this.
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Speaker 3: Jerina Lee was born on February eleventh, seventeen eighty three,
7:50
Speaker 3: in Cape May, New Jersey. So she said her parents
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Speaker 3: were free and black and their family was poor.
7:58
Speaker 2: When she was about.
7:59
Speaker 3: Seven years old, she was hired out. So parents sometimes
8:04
Speaker 3: did this to make extra money. They would send their
8:07
Speaker 3: children away to work so that they can earn money
8:09
Speaker 3: for the family. This is what happened with Darina. She
8:13
Speaker 3: was taken about sixty miles away, and she had to
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Speaker 3: do domestic work for the Sharp family. Throughout her childhood
8:21
Speaker 3: and her young adulthood, she was placed with different families
8:26
Speaker 3: and she lived away from home. She said that her
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Speaker 3: parents were quote wholly ignorant of the knowledge of God.
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Speaker 3: So by that, what I would assume she means is
8:38
Speaker 3: that they weren't teaching her about Christianity. There was no
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Speaker 3: Bible around the house, there were no other forms of
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Speaker 3: spirituality that they were invested in themselves and probably teaching
8:49
Speaker 3: her as well. But she still turns to spirituality when
8:53
Speaker 3: she's young. So it seems like, kind of early on,
8:56
Speaker 3: we're already seeing these self imposed instances of her having
9:01
Speaker 3: like come to religion moments. She has a lot of
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Speaker 3: those throughout her life, but it happens really early on,
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Speaker 3: and I'm just I'm thinking about that, I'm a child
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Speaker 3: of Southern Baptist faith, Black Southern Baptist faith, and you know,
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Speaker 3: that's kind of that's an inherited thing a lot of
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Speaker 3: the time, and it was for me. So that's not
9:24
Speaker 3: even close to the experience that I had. I was like,
9:26
Speaker 3: what else is out there like this? You know, isn't
9:29
Speaker 3: resonating with me that much. So thinking about her not
9:33
Speaker 3: having any sort of spirituality in her life and having
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Speaker 3: these really big, really big emphatic moments is very interesting
9:43
Speaker 3: to me. But I'll talk about that moment she had
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Speaker 3: early on. So she says that she lies to the
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Speaker 3: woman she's working for. She tells her that she did
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Speaker 3: some work when she really had it. And then this
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Speaker 3: is a quote from her. She says, the spirit of
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Speaker 3: God moved in power through my content and told me
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Speaker 3: I was a wretched sinner on this account. So great
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Speaker 3: was the impression and so strong were the feelings of
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Speaker 3: guilt that I promised in my heart that I would
10:09
Speaker 3: not tell another lie. So she's like a lie, but
10:13
Speaker 3: that felt horrible, like.
10:15
Speaker 2: She was not she was.
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Speaker 3: She seemed a little I don't know if you would
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Speaker 3: call that type a or what, but she definitely had
10:22
Speaker 3: a lot of strong feelings just because she told a
10:24
Speaker 3: tiny lie. And I can only imagine like she was tired,
10:28
Speaker 3: she was young, and she was working for a family,
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Speaker 3: and she was away from her family. I can't imagine
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Speaker 3: the amount of separation trauma like labor trauma, economic trauma
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Speaker 3: that was happening in that moment. And she's she is
10:41
Speaker 3: beating herself up for telling what is seemingly a small lie.
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Speaker 2: I think we can.
10:46
Speaker 3: Already start to understand her personality and how intense it
10:49
Speaker 3: is from that description. But she said her heart still
10:54
Speaker 3: grew harder after this, and God kept working on her.
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Speaker 3: So in eighteen oh four, she goes to hear a
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Speaker 3: Presbyterian missionary preach at one afternoon meeting, and he reads
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Speaker 3: the Psalms and she has this renewed conviction after having
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Speaker 3: that heart and heart, she's like, I got this renewed conviction,
11:14
Speaker 3: and she says, Lord, I am vile, conceived in sin, born,
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Speaker 3: unholy and unclean, sprung from man who's guilty. Fall corrupts
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Speaker 3: the race and taints us all. So she's had this
11:27
Speaker 3: moment and when she realizes her sin, this helps her
11:31
Speaker 3: feel the weight of her sins. But she's still young.
11:35
Speaker 3: She doesn't really know how to deal with that, and
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Speaker 3: she tries to die by suicide. And what she says.
11:43
Speaker 3: She talks about this moment in a little bit more detail.
11:46
Speaker 3: I won't go into the details here, but she says
11:49
Speaker 3: that it was the unseen arm of God that saved her.
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Speaker 2: And she does continue.
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Speaker 3: In other moments of her life to struggle with suicidal ideation.
11:59
Speaker 3: But a little while later, she goes to Philly and
12:02
Speaker 3: she goes to an African Methodist Episcopal church there and
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Speaker 3: she hears Reverend Richard Allen preach. So he is the
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Speaker 3: reverend who founds the am Church. And in this really
12:17
Speaker 3: dramatic moment, she explains accepting God, and she says that
12:21
Speaker 3: instant it appeared to me as if a garment which
12:25
Speaker 3: had entirely enveloped my whole person, even to my fingers,
12:29
Speaker 3: ends split at the crown of my head, and was
12:32
Speaker 3: stripped away from me, passing like a shadow from my sight,
12:36
Speaker 3: when the glory of God seemed to cover me and
12:39
Speaker 3: its stead. I was really struck by her writing in
12:43
Speaker 3: that moment. This is something that she wrote in her autobiography.
12:47
Speaker 3: It's so image heavy, it's so image rich, it's so
12:51
Speaker 3: like fanciful, it's so imaginative. But it doesn't seem like
12:59
Speaker 3: she's just doing this as she's like, no, this is
13:01
Speaker 3: what I really felt. This is what I really saw.
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Speaker 2: In the moment.
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Speaker 3: And there are other moments throughout her autobiography when she
13:11
Speaker 3: really hones in on those details of the visions that
13:14
Speaker 3: she's having and the feelings that she's feeling. She also
13:19
Speaker 3: has visions of Hell that she describes and of Satan,
13:23
Speaker 3: and these are moments that really presses her deeper into
13:26
Speaker 3: her religious journey. But she moves along and she's feeling
13:32
Speaker 3: like she's been forgiven for her sins and she's converted
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Speaker 3: to God, and at a certain point she gets to
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Speaker 3: a place in her journey where she stops feeling fear
13:41
Speaker 3: and guilt and distress, and she starts wanting to know
13:47
Speaker 3: more of the right way of the Lord. So I'll
13:52
Speaker 3: stop here and say that historians and scholars who have
13:58
Speaker 3: done research on her and her story, there is some
14:01
Speaker 3: speculation around what her mental state was at the time.
14:06
Speaker 3: They have said that she might have had mental illness,
14:09
Speaker 3: but that is just derived from all of her descriptions
14:14
Speaker 3: of what she was going through. So the suicidal ideation
14:18
Speaker 3: ideas around sin the fact that she was separated from
14:22
Speaker 3: her family so young and had to do domestic labor
14:25
Speaker 3: in other people's homes.
14:28
Speaker 2: People were enslaved around her, so she was.
14:30
Speaker 3: Not enslaved, but this was during chattel slavery was happening
14:34
Speaker 3: around her, So that's unclear. But it is something that
14:40
Speaker 3: historians have thought about and have speculated around, but it's
14:45
Speaker 3: not anything that I would feel comfortable saying is one
14:49
Speaker 3: way or the other, because they.
14:50
Speaker 2: Haven't said that.
14:51
Speaker 3: But about four or five years later, she's drawn to
14:56
Speaker 3: preach and she tells Reverend Richard Allen, the founder of
15:03
Speaker 3: the Ami Church, that the Lord told her to preach.
15:06
Speaker 2: She was called to it.
15:07
Speaker 3: She got signs and she is supposed to preach. She's
15:10
Speaker 3: really feeling in her spirit. But he's like, no, okay,
15:16
Speaker 3: women can't do that. I know y'all have seen this
15:19
Speaker 3: a lot throughout all of the things that y'all have
15:23
Speaker 3: talked about in history, where it's like, Okay, you're coming
15:25
Speaker 3: to ask me this, but you know, women can't do that.
15:28
Speaker 3: That's what he said to her. He said, yeah, that's
15:31
Speaker 3: not allowed in our practice.
15:33
Speaker 4: Yeah.
15:33
Speaker 3: He was also like, yeah, I can't remember her name,
15:36
Speaker 3: but he said, yeah, this other woman came to me
15:38
Speaker 3: and asked me that too, But you know she was
15:41
Speaker 3: wildent too, like she can't do that, and you can't
15:43
Speaker 3: do that. But she's thinking. Jerinaly is thinking this. She
15:50
Speaker 3: says for us, unseemly as it may appear nowadays, for
15:53
Speaker 3: a woman to preach, it should be remembered that nothing
15:56
Speaker 3: is impossible with God. And why should it be impossible,
16:01
Speaker 3: heterodox or improper for a woman to preach, seeing that
16:04
Speaker 3: the Savior died for the woman as well as for
16:07
Speaker 3: the man.
16:09
Speaker 2: I don't she has a point.
16:11
Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at the logic of it,
16:15
Speaker 3: it's like this is for all of us. We're trying
16:18
Speaker 3: to spread this message. Why are you keeping me from
16:20
Speaker 3: trying to do the work that needs to be done here?
16:22
Speaker 3: If you're trying to evangelize, if you're trying to bring
16:24
Speaker 3: more people into the faith, if you're trying to get
16:27
Speaker 3: more people to sign up to come to am church
16:30
Speaker 3: and you know be saved, then why you won't let
16:33
Speaker 3: me preach like I'm called to it? If God can
16:36
Speaker 3: call you to it as a man, then why can't
16:38
Speaker 3: God call me to it?
16:39
Speaker 2: So she calls that out.
16:41
Speaker 3: She recognizes how much it doesn't make sense, and that
16:47
Speaker 3: spirit of wanting to preach remains with her, but there
16:50
Speaker 3: is something that disrupts that, and that's when she marries
16:55
Speaker 3: Joseph Lee, which she does in eighteen eleven, and he's
16:58
Speaker 3: a pastor in snow Hill, which is a community that's
17:01
Speaker 3: just outside of Philly, and Dreina doesn't know anybody in
17:04
Speaker 3: snow Hill besides her husband, so it's hard. She's having
17:07
Speaker 3: a hard time adjusting because customs there are different and
17:10
Speaker 3: she doesn't have friends to hang out with.
17:13
Speaker 2: It's just like her husband's preaching.
17:15
Speaker 3: He's doing this thing that she couldn't even do just now,
17:18
Speaker 3: and she's kind of having to sideline herself for him.
17:21
Speaker 3: She asked him to go to Philadelphia with her, but
17:25
Speaker 3: he doesn't want to leave his congregations.
17:26
Speaker 2: So she's like, well, guess I gotta stay here. That's
17:30
Speaker 2: what I got to do as his wife.
17:32
Speaker 3: So she acquiesces to his ministry and she has two
17:36
Speaker 3: children with him. She has several children, she has more
17:40
Speaker 3: than that, but they die, and she has two children
17:45
Speaker 3: who survive, and in eighteen seventeen he dies as well,
17:50
Speaker 3: her husband. So at this point, there's not much that
17:55
Speaker 3: she writes about her marriage to her husband. And I've
17:59
Speaker 3: also seen history talk about this where it's like they
18:02
Speaker 3: don't really know anything about in detail about her relationship
18:07
Speaker 3: with her husband, because she doesn't talk about it in
18:09
Speaker 3: her autobiography. And that's one of the main sources that
18:12
Speaker 3: is like the main source of information about her.
18:15
Speaker 2: But it's just it is the shortest.
18:19
Speaker 3: It is the shortest part of the entire autobiography, which
18:25
Speaker 3: I am very curious about. I would love to know
18:27
Speaker 3: more about it. But she goes into such great detail
18:30
Speaker 3: about other parts of her life, and there is such
18:32
Speaker 3: little detail about her marriage to her husband, how she
18:34
Speaker 3: felt about him, what they did on a day to
18:36
Speaker 3: day basis, where he was from, how he grew up,
18:40
Speaker 3: how he thought about things. You know, it's none of
18:42
Speaker 3: that in there. So I can't really tell y'all much
18:46
Speaker 3: about her marriage to her husband, but after he dies,
18:51
Speaker 3: she clearly during this time, it's pretty clear if you
18:54
Speaker 3: read in between the lines, that this whole time she
18:56
Speaker 3: was still pining to preach, because right after he dies
19:00
Speaker 3: she basically this is eight years after she first asks
19:03
Speaker 3: Reverend Richard Allen to preach. She's feeling that fire again
19:06
Speaker 3: and she's willing to speak up about it. And Reverend
19:11
Speaker 3: Allen is now the bishop of the AMA Church in America.
19:13
Speaker 3: He becomes that in eighteen sixteen, and one day there's
19:17
Speaker 3: another reverend named Richard Williams who's preaching at Bethel Church
19:21
Speaker 3: and at one point they describe it as him seeming
19:25
Speaker 3: to have lost the spirit. I don't know what that
19:28
Speaker 3: sermon was. I don't think there's record of that sermon.
19:32
Speaker 3: None of Jerina's sermons are extant either, so that is
19:38
Speaker 3: another thing I would love to see, like what her
19:40
Speaker 3: sermons actually were.
19:41
Speaker 2: She talks about what she talked about in them a
19:42
Speaker 2: little bit.
19:43
Speaker 3: But full sermons are not available but it is said
19:48
Speaker 3: that this guy's sermon wasn't going so well. He had
19:51
Speaker 3: the people in the first half, but in the second
19:53
Speaker 3: half he kind of lost them. And Jerina's like, well,
19:57
Speaker 3: I got something to say. I'm feeling the spirit. So
19:59
Speaker 3: she up and she starts preaching on the passage that
20:02
Speaker 3: he was preaching, which is a bold move. Yeah, yeah,
20:07
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like that's even a bold move
20:09
Speaker 3: for people nowadays. Like, just think about a corporate office setting.
20:14
Speaker 3: You're like, this speech is not going well.
20:17
Speaker 4: A man full of men or like I got some.
20:20
Speaker 3: Boss man is speaking and you step in and say, like, actually,
20:24
Speaker 3: this isn't going so well.
20:25
Speaker 2: Let me finish this for you. Let me take the
20:28
Speaker 2: top off of your hands.
20:30
Speaker 3: And then now think about that as a free black woman, right,
20:34
Speaker 3: I mean, granted it was Philly, you know, and that
20:39
Speaker 3: was a place where lots of abolitionists were. There was
20:42
Speaker 3: a spirit of freedom and independence and anti slavery and
20:47
Speaker 3: all of that. So consider the context, but also.
20:50
Speaker 2: Consider the context, you know what I'm saying.
20:53
Speaker 3: So she is up and she preaches, she does her thing,
20:56
Speaker 3: and then she says, now scared, She talks about how
20:59
Speaker 3: she's frightened after so she felt it at the moment,
21:01
Speaker 3: but right after she was like, oh, oh, what did
21:03
Speaker 3: I do? And she thought she might be kicked out
21:06
Speaker 3: of the church, which is a fair assumption to make.
21:10
Speaker 3: But Bishop Allen gets up and he tells the congregation
21:14
Speaker 3: that she asked him eight years ago to preach, so
21:18
Speaker 3: he acknowledges what happened before, and he tells the congregation
21:23
Speaker 3: He's like, and I said no, she asked me to preach,
21:25
Speaker 3: but I said no. But now he believes that she's
21:30
Speaker 3: called to the work. He's like, I've seen I've witnessed this.
21:34
Speaker 3: I've seen the evidence of you really being a good
21:37
Speaker 3: preacher and being able to do this. And that's a
21:41
Speaker 3: reversal because not only was the first part of her
21:45
Speaker 3: getting up a total anomaly and a risk for her,
21:49
Speaker 3: but like to have the man who has such a
21:54
Speaker 3: position of power over the church and in the church
21:56
Speaker 3: and has already said no to her to affirm but
22:00
Speaker 3: what she's driven to do in this moment also something
22:02
Speaker 3: that is so deeply personal and spiritual, probably felt very vindicated.
22:07
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm speculating, but you know that is huge.
22:10
Speaker 3: That's a huge deal for that to happen like that
22:13
Speaker 3: in that moment and immediately it's not like she was
22:17
Speaker 3: punished then and then later on he was like, hmm,
22:20
Speaker 3: I think I was wrong that second time. It happens immediately,
22:23
Speaker 3: So I think that's a very fascinating moment in her story.
22:25
Speaker 3: Is clearly a turning point because this is where we
22:28
Speaker 3: get to her first, he's basically given her the approval
22:32
Speaker 3: to keep preaching. She feels he relieve about that. It
22:35
Speaker 3: gets her the strength to keep preaching. But she's still
22:41
Speaker 3: not ordained technically, but she is allowed to preach, and
22:48
Speaker 3: Bishop Allen supports her travel and her preaching, and he
22:52
Speaker 3: and his wife babysat her kids. So that's really helpful
22:56
Speaker 3: in her being able to go out and preach in
22:58
Speaker 3: different places. She can't preach in the church, she's not
23:02
Speaker 3: ordained to do that. So this is where we get
23:06
Speaker 3: to this next phase of her life. She is, you know,
23:10
Speaker 3: had these come to God moments. She's been married and
23:14
Speaker 3: now her husband died, and now she's like fulfilling this
23:19
Speaker 3: thing that has been an inkling in her and growing
23:22
Speaker 3: and growing and growing, and now it's finally blossomed. And
23:26
Speaker 3: she goes out and she starts traveling around and preaching
23:29
Speaker 3: in friends and family members houses, meeting houses, schools, and courthouses.
23:34
Speaker 3: So being an itinerant preacher was a big thing for
23:38
Speaker 3: people at the time. There were men who were doing it,
23:41
Speaker 3: and Drina Lee is doing it now too. It was
23:46
Speaker 3: still difficult for women and going out and preaching, especially
23:50
Speaker 3: during times of slavery and Maryland was a slave state,
23:53
Speaker 3: and she was going to Maryland to preach, so she
23:58
Speaker 3: was going to places where it was risky and dangerous
24:01
Speaker 3: for her to be speaking in front.
24:03
Speaker 2: Of these crowds.
24:05
Speaker 3: But traveling around preaching from place to place, you know,
24:09
Speaker 3: you had these different denominations who were trying to get
24:11
Speaker 3: people on their sides. And so there were the Baptists
24:14
Speaker 3: over here and people were coming to the Baptist and
24:17
Speaker 3: it was like, we're in election season, so it's like
24:21
Speaker 3: you trying to its you trying to capture more votes,
24:24
Speaker 3: to try to bring more people into a voter registration process.
24:26
Speaker 2: It's kind of like they were.
24:28
Speaker 3: She was out there knocking on doors, she was out
24:30
Speaker 3: there given sermons and all kinds of places and hopeful
24:34
Speaker 3: about bringing as many people in as possible to her faith.
24:38
Speaker 3: She really felt called to the am Church when she
24:43
Speaker 3: she was kind of skeptical about Methodist Church when she
24:46
Speaker 3: first went, and then she had a connection kind of
24:48
Speaker 3: In the beginning of her story, she talks about that.
24:50
Speaker 3: So she's traveling around to all these different places and
24:55
Speaker 3: giving sermons, but she has got to make some money
25:00
Speaker 3: to take care of her children and get back home
25:02
Speaker 3: at some point. So she opens the school and she
25:04
Speaker 3: says that she teaches eleven students, and eventually she does
25:08
Speaker 3: get enough money to go back to Philly. She has
25:13
Speaker 3: a sketchy journey by ship. She says it was pretty perilous,
25:16
Speaker 3: but she gets to Philly on November twelfth, eighteen twenty one,
25:21
Speaker 3: and she still continues traveling in the area and beyond.
25:27
Speaker 3: And one of my favorite things about her autobiography is
25:31
Speaker 3: how specific she is. She talks about walking miles and miles.
25:38
Speaker 3: She's going by wagon and by boat to some places.
25:41
Speaker 3: She talks about giving multiple sermons in you know, a day,
25:47
Speaker 3: and she even goes to Canada. She is preaching to
25:52
Speaker 3: all different kinds of congregations too, So there are black
25:55
Speaker 3: congregations and she really wants to speak to black people,
25:58
Speaker 3: but there are also mixed congregations, which wasn't even a.
26:02
Speaker 2: Thing that people really wanted.
26:04
Speaker 3: They didn't want women speaking to mixed crowds at the time,
26:07
Speaker 3: especially black women. And you know, she's traveling to states where,
26:15
Speaker 3: like I said, Maryland, people are enslaved in Maryland, and
26:19
Speaker 3: she's preaching to enslaved people as well, so enslavers would
26:23
Speaker 3: allow enslaved people to go to sermons. Sometimes enslaved people
26:27
Speaker 3: were walking many, many miles to get to her sermons
26:31
Speaker 3: and then walking back to the plantations to labor in
26:35
Speaker 3: the morning.
26:36
Speaker 2: And Jarena kind of justifies.
26:40
Speaker 3: A lot of the bad things happening around, like antagonism
26:43
Speaker 3: and hatred by calling it the work of the devil sometimes.
26:47
Speaker 3: But in eighteen twenty three, she goes back to Philly
26:51
Speaker 3: and the bishop offers her a preaching position at Bethel Church.
26:56
Speaker 3: But there are still folks there who are against a
26:59
Speaker 3: woman preaching. So this is something that still comes up.
27:02
Speaker 3: She she's traveling a lot of places and family members
27:05
Speaker 3: are putting on her on, people she knows are putting
27:07
Speaker 3: her on, and she's being allowed to preach in some places,
27:09
Speaker 3: but she still is facing a lot of opposition and
27:15
Speaker 3: places to her being a woman preaching.
27:17
Speaker 2: It is the case in her.
27:21
Speaker 3: Autobiography as it is in a lot of other enslaved people,
27:26
Speaker 3: something that I'm fascinated by. It's like a lot of
27:28
Speaker 3: the times they don't dwell on the antagonism that they
27:32
Speaker 3: were facing. They're not like a lot of the time
27:35
Speaker 3: enslaved people who are like in contact with a lot
27:37
Speaker 3: of people who are traveling around the US or not
27:41
Speaker 3: even enslaved.
27:41
Speaker 2: People, black people who are free.
27:44
Speaker 3: If they're talking about traveling around the US during slavery times,
27:49
Speaker 3: like they don't. Sometimes they don't dwell on the moments
27:52
Speaker 3: where they're like this happened when I was in this
27:54
Speaker 3: place and I was in grave danger and it was
27:57
Speaker 3: so risky and they almost killed me. You just know
28:00
Speaker 3: that there are tons of stories like that in between
28:03
Speaker 3: all the moments that they are talking about. And she
28:05
Speaker 3: doesn't really dwell on that too much, although she does
28:08
Speaker 3: acknowledge the difficulties that she had, But she gives all
28:12
Speaker 3: kinds of sermons, and once she's even invited to an
28:16
Speaker 3: enslaver's house to give three funeral sermons for two adults
28:21
Speaker 3: and a child.
28:24
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to.
28:25
Speaker 3: Put myself in her shoes and think about how focused
28:28
Speaker 3: she is on her mission of imparting the knowledge and
28:32
Speaker 3: the wisdom of God and the Church on to anybody
28:38
Speaker 3: and everybody, including people who have done really vile things,
28:42
Speaker 3: people who hate the side of her and want her
28:45
Speaker 3: did people who consider other people property.
28:48
Speaker 2: You know, she is so called to her work that
28:51
Speaker 2: she travels far.
28:55
Speaker 3: She goes into detail about the number of miles that
29:01
Speaker 3: she walks and the number of sermons that she gives,
29:06
Speaker 3: and it's thousands of miles that she walks over a
29:09
Speaker 3: period of time and over one hundred sermons that she
29:11
Speaker 3: gives over a period of time.
29:12
Speaker 2: So it's a lot. It's a lot.
29:17
Speaker 3: And of course she's invested in that spiritual path and preaching,
29:22
Speaker 3: but she's also invested in anti slavery. She's not like
29:26
Speaker 3: a really big or it doesn't seem like based on records,
29:29
Speaker 3: that she was an abolitionist who was constantly working for
29:36
Speaker 3: the abolition of slavery, but she does, in eighteen thirty
29:40
Speaker 3: four go to an anti slavery meeting in Buffalo, New York.
29:43
Speaker 3: And in her autobiography she talks about how horrible and
29:47
Speaker 3: violent and wicked the institution of chattel slavery is. But
29:51
Speaker 3: this is where we get to her other first. So
29:54
Speaker 3: in eighteen thirty six she publishes the first edition of
29:57
Speaker 3: her autobiography, which is the life and religious experience of
30:01
Speaker 3: Jerina Lee, a colored lady, giving an account of her
30:05
Speaker 3: call to preach the Gospel. And that's what makes her
30:07
Speaker 3: the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography. In
30:10
Speaker 3: eighteen forty four, she submits an expanded autobiography to the
30:14
Speaker 3: Amme Church and their book committee, but they ignore her request.
30:18
Speaker 3: It takes her a few years to get it back
30:19
Speaker 3: up and off the ground, but in eighteen forty nine
30:22
Speaker 3: she publishes an extended version of her autobiography with another press.
30:27
Speaker 3: And this is one that everybody can access online.
30:32
Speaker 2: You can go and read it.
30:34
Speaker 3: And like I said, she gets pretty meticulous in her
30:36
Speaker 3: own record keeping and a lot of moments, it really
30:39
Speaker 3: feels like a diary, like it's a journal, Like I
30:42
Speaker 3: could see her dating these things. She keeps dates people,
30:46
Speaker 3: the names of people that she meets. It is very detailed.
30:50
Speaker 3: She gets into the weeds about where she travels and
30:54
Speaker 3: who she sees.
30:55
Speaker 2: And all of that.
30:56
Speaker 3: And at the end of the autobiography she says this
31:01
Speaker 3: ps pleased to pardon errors and excuse all imperfections, as
31:06
Speaker 3: I have been deprived of the advantages of education, which
31:10
Speaker 3: I hope all will appreciate, as I am measurably a
31:14
Speaker 3: self taught person. I hope the contents of this work
31:17
Speaker 3: may be instrumental in leaving a lasting impression upon the
31:20
Speaker 3: minds of the impenitent. May it prove to be encouraging
31:25
Speaker 3: to the justified soul and a comfort to the sanctified.
31:30
Speaker 2: So Jerina.
31:32
Speaker 3: In eighteen fifty three, she speaks at the American Anti
31:36
Speaker 3: Slavery Society's convention in Philly. But as is unfortunately the
31:40
Speaker 3: case for a lot of people, she is poor.
31:43
Speaker 2: At the end of her life.
31:46
Speaker 3: There was a report in the records of the Pennsylvania
31:49
Speaker 3: Abolition Society about her, and it said that in her
31:51
Speaker 3: last days she depended on the contributions of others. And
31:55
Speaker 3: it also says that a little while before she died,
31:58
Speaker 3: she said she wished she was done with begging. She
32:02
Speaker 3: died on February fifth, eighteen sixty four, in Philly, and
32:06
Speaker 3: her legacy and story were rediscovered around the nineteen eighties.
32:10
Speaker 3: Because her work kind of faded out of the consciousness
32:16
Speaker 3: for a while, as often happens in other people's stories.
32:21
Speaker 3: And in twenty sixteen, though the am Church ordained her
32:25
Speaker 3: posthumously at the fiftieth Quadrunial Session of the General Conference,
32:29
Speaker 3: so she did get recognition by the Ami Church, and
32:32
Speaker 3: of course all thankfully all of the historians and scholars
32:36
Speaker 3: have unearthed more information about her and still are putting
32:40
Speaker 3: out more information about her and researching her. So that
32:43
Speaker 3: is great, even though her legacy kind of faded for
32:47
Speaker 3: a little while. What a story, right, And I mean, yeah,
33:03
Speaker 3: there's so many instances she has where I can just
33:07
Speaker 3: visualize this happening and the importance of it. And we
33:11
Speaker 3: were discussing when we were together, and do you see
33:14
Speaker 3: the importance as we always talk about of having things
33:18
Speaker 3: like an autobiography or a diary or what have you.
33:22
Speaker 3: But it is fascinating too because we do talk about
33:26
Speaker 3: religion a lot on this show, and this is still
33:28
Speaker 3: a thing.
33:28
Speaker 2: This is still.
33:31
Speaker 1: Like I had to we did a whole episode and
33:33
Speaker 1: some of you are gonna be like, duh, but we
33:35
Speaker 1: did a whole episode where I was like, hey, and
33:37
Speaker 1: a woman be the pope And the answer was no,
33:38
Speaker 1: Like answer is no, But it's still a point of
33:43
Speaker 1: conversation and contention in so many religions, and I know
33:49
Speaker 1: friends who have left churches because of they won't allow
33:54
Speaker 1: women to preach or what have you. So having this
33:57
Speaker 1: feeling moved to do that and taking that risk is
34:04
Speaker 1: quite quite the story. And then knowing that we are
34:09
Speaker 1: still talking about this stuff.
34:11
Speaker 3: When you say your friends left church is because of that?
34:13
Speaker 3: Are they in smaller denominations? Is are they major religion
34:19
Speaker 3: like or is it the specific church that they're going
34:22
Speaker 3: to that's that has those principles?
34:25
Speaker 1: I feel And probably Samantha will know more than I
34:30
Speaker 1: or maybe even you Eaves. I don't know, but I
34:32
Speaker 1: feel like she it's a there's so many fracturing within denominations.
34:37
Speaker 1: It's a specific sect of Baptism, I think, but I
34:41
Speaker 1: know it's not always the same. Like my my I
34:45
Speaker 1: al was raised Presbyterian and right now my mom is
34:51
Speaker 1: there's a more liberal I guess interpretation of Presbyterian that
34:54
Speaker 1: she went down. My uncle went down a more conservative
34:58
Speaker 1: interpretation of Presbyterians. And they're like fighting about it, and
35:02
Speaker 1: he's saying he might leave the church. So I guess
35:06
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it's not I know, denominations can
35:10
Speaker 1: break down in a couple of different ways, but it
35:13
Speaker 1: is still a thing. And my friend, who I believe
35:16
Speaker 1: is some version of Baptist, I'm not very religious, obvious,
35:21
Speaker 1: she her church didn't allow women to preach, and she
35:27
Speaker 1: just wasn't wasn't about it.
35:30
Speaker 2: Not here for that understandably.
35:32
Speaker 4: Well, we know that the Southern Baptist just went back
35:35
Speaker 4: initially and separated. I think they created a whole new
35:39
Speaker 4: level denomination this year, within the less than year and
35:42
Speaker 4: a half because some churches have allowed for women to
35:45
Speaker 4: become teachers. So they're like, they are no longer part
35:47
Speaker 4: of Southern Baptists, so they had to kind of like
35:49
Speaker 4: drag them out or remove them from that sect likes
35:54
Speaker 4: as it continued to grow, and I know, like when
35:56
Speaker 4: it comes to Western religions, specifically when it comes to Christianity,
36:01
Speaker 4: it's all fracturing more and more and more and more
36:04
Speaker 4: because the I will not allow this versus. But this
36:09
Speaker 4: is maybe a'll be a new interpretation or maybe you've
36:12
Speaker 4: always been interpreting the Bible wrong. Kind of conversations and
36:17
Speaker 4: controversies have happened since its existence. We know that when
36:21
Speaker 4: we talk about like the awakenings there because of like
36:23
Speaker 4: the splintering as well as when we're talking about like
36:26
Speaker 4: hell Fire Brimstone era, which is one of the awakenings.
36:28
Speaker 4: But you know, like all of those conversations have become
36:32
Speaker 4: the same conversation, the same controversy. It just becomes more
36:35
Speaker 4: and more splintered. So there's Baptist is probably I will
36:41
Speaker 4: say this, in my experience, Baptists have become one of
36:45
Speaker 4: the fastest to splinter. I could say that, and the
36:48
Speaker 4: Methodist may be able. Former Methodists may come after we'd
36:50
Speaker 4: be like, noh, you don't understand, we're breaking apart faster, right,
36:55
Speaker 4: like this level of like this sent They're like no h.
36:58
Speaker 4: But in my in my experience, especially with the within
37:02
Speaker 4: the US again, it's that conversation too that I've seen
37:05
Speaker 4: the Southern Baptists splinter really quickly, very fast, and smaller,
37:10
Speaker 4: dwindling down. So not dwindling down but existing, I guess.
37:15
Speaker 1: And there was a big there was recently a big
37:18
Speaker 1: break but about LGBTQ plus people allowing them in the church,
37:24
Speaker 1: and that made a lot of news. So it is
37:25
Speaker 1: like still this conversation of who that quote that I
37:30
Speaker 1: can't remember but was very well put of, like doesn't
37:33
Speaker 1: God's words speak to everybody, like still a huge, a
37:39
Speaker 1: huge factor in these splinters, in these interpretations of who
37:43
Speaker 1: is allowed to be part of the church and who
37:45
Speaker 1: is allowed to preach and spread that word.
37:48
Speaker 4: I mean, the conversation about salvation is such a hot
37:52
Speaker 4: topic and then apocalypse.
37:54
Speaker 2: Those two, right.
37:55
Speaker 4: They are break down so many of the denominations, even
37:59
Speaker 4: within cathal and Protestantism, that's a still big conversation about salvation,
38:06
Speaker 4: like the way of salvation, as well as the end
38:08
Speaker 4: of the times what does this look like? And it's
38:10
Speaker 4: constant debates.
38:12
Speaker 2: M I do find it.
38:14
Speaker 1: Really fascinating in Jerna Lee's story because I was raised
38:18
Speaker 1: religious and then went away from it m H. And she,
38:22
Speaker 1: as you said, had sort of the opposite.
38:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:24
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me because I remember having like
38:27
Speaker 1: a complete breakdown as a nine year old and being like,
38:30
Speaker 1: I lied to my teacher and it was a small why,
38:33
Speaker 1: you know, But to me that was because of, you know,
38:37
Speaker 1: the idea, even though I wasn't Catholic, but like that
38:39
Speaker 1: confession of like you did a lie, it's bad, you
38:41
Speaker 1: have to tell someone.
38:42
Speaker 2: But she was feeling it even without that.
38:46
Speaker 1: So I'm just very curious if they were outside forces,
38:49
Speaker 1: if that's just like a human like a natural human
38:53
Speaker 1: thing that makes you feel that way, because for me,
38:56
Speaker 1: I thought it was religious. I was like, oh, God,
39:00
Speaker 1: going to Hell.
39:02
Speaker 3: For Durina, I don't know where what it was for
39:08
Speaker 3: that initial experience of the lie and feeling like she said,
39:13
Speaker 3: the Spirit of God moved in power through my conscience.
39:17
Speaker 3: That feels like a very like it was an embodied thing.
39:22
Speaker 3: It just came from me, and I didn't know where
39:23
Speaker 3: it came from, is what it sounds like.
39:25
Speaker 2: Then.
39:25
Speaker 3: Although later one of the people I think she was
39:28
Speaker 3: hired out to one of those families was Catholic, so
39:32
Speaker 3: they could have been impressing a lot upon her then,
39:36
Speaker 3: But her the beginning of her awakening happened before that,
39:41
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm not so sure about the entire religious
39:46
Speaker 3: underpinnings of that family that she was working for when
39:49
Speaker 3: she told that lie. So maybe that was there, But
39:52
Speaker 3: from the way she describes it, it seems like it
39:55
Speaker 3: was a spontaneous reaction to something that just like she
39:59
Speaker 3: was inspired by that just exhaled out of her spirit basically.
40:05
Speaker 4: Okay, and I might have missed it. Did she get
40:07
Speaker 4: caught or did she confess to that lie to her
40:11
Speaker 4: to that family.
40:12
Speaker 3: I don't think she says anything about that in her autobiography,
40:16
Speaker 3: Samantha like, she doesn't really talk about her saying anything
40:21
Speaker 3: after she told the last She just says, I said yes,
40:23
Speaker 3: but it wasn't true, and I told myself I wasn't
40:26
Speaker 3: going to tell another lie. My instinct is to say
40:29
Speaker 3: that she did it, confess to it to at least
40:33
Speaker 3: the person that she lied to, just because it might
40:35
Speaker 3: like the trouble that she would get in the position
40:38
Speaker 3: might be great, right, you know, So I would imagine
40:42
Speaker 3: she probably didn't admit to it after she told it.
40:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wondered because if had she had done
40:47
Speaker 4: that and they used that as an opportunity, I'm sure
40:49
Speaker 4: she would put that as part of her story, to
40:50
Speaker 4: have a quote unquote witness to her or testify to
40:54
Speaker 4: her essentially about her mistakes and grave sons. I just wondered.
41:00
Speaker 4: Now there's a bigger question because I think, and this
41:03
Speaker 4: is not anything to do with Jerina, just in overall experiences,
41:06
Speaker 4: when I see adults or older people become converts, are
41:10
Speaker 4: converting to more religious aspects, it helps explain the trouble
41:17
Speaker 4: paths that they may have had, whether it's it was
41:19
Speaker 4: my fault because I am human and that was not
41:22
Speaker 4: looking for salvation or finding some way to be safe.
41:26
Speaker 4: The need to be saved is so big that it
41:30
Speaker 4: kind of brings you out of that it makes you
41:33
Speaker 4: quote unquote clean, because who doesn't want to be told
41:36
Speaker 4: you're remade and all the mistakes that you made is gone.
41:40
Speaker 4: Now it's wiped away, and from that one it will
41:42
Speaker 4: forever be wiped away. Just remember to ask for forgiveness.
41:46
Speaker 4: And then there's this level that I've seen with adults
41:49
Speaker 4: who have converted or quote unquote say that they've been saved.
41:53
Speaker 4: It is it is some much needed restart. And I
41:57
Speaker 4: understand that. I understand that to so many things, whether
42:00
Speaker 4: it's you've lost somebody and you're like, oh, this is
42:02
Speaker 4: why this happened, or you know, I had to go
42:05
Speaker 4: through this to be this better person, hoping that you
42:07
Speaker 4: are a better person. And I feel like people not
42:12
Speaker 4: to criticize anyone, and I say this about myself, who
42:16
Speaker 4: use my own past in this way. The more tragic
42:21
Speaker 4: I'm gonna put this in quotes, or the hardships that
42:24
Speaker 4: you felt like you've gone through, it if the more
42:27
Speaker 4: that there is, the more that there has been, the
42:29
Speaker 4: greater the story and the greater the renewal is it
42:32
Speaker 4: kind of becomes a bigger testimony in your head, being
42:35
Speaker 4: like no, wonder I had to go through this, you know,
42:37
Speaker 4: does that make sense? Again, this has nothing to do
42:40
Speaker 4: with Drena. This is just my thought process and how
42:42
Speaker 4: people convert this way, you know, from being a child
42:45
Speaker 4: to an adult and seeing like the flip flop of
42:48
Speaker 4: people who don't understand what this might look like and
42:50
Speaker 4: why it's important to them. That's just that conversation. And
42:54
Speaker 4: then like having Darna really just step forward and preaching
42:59
Speaker 4: in an at fear where she was told she was
43:01
Speaker 4: not welcomed that on herself and coming back with like,
43:04
Speaker 4: oh my god, well what did I do? What I do?
43:07
Speaker 4: Feeling like that was the Holy Spirit, the Holy ghosts
43:10
Speaker 4: as my people would say, moving her and of course
43:13
Speaker 4: this is why the door opened. Yeah, and it like
43:17
Speaker 4: it just makes that validation even bigger and it's amazing too.
43:22
Speaker 4: But like having that can heal so many people in
43:26
Speaker 4: different ways.
43:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when you say that, that just that
43:30
Speaker 3: makes me wonder what would have Darna been? Has she
43:33
Speaker 3: not found religion, if she did have mental illness and
43:38
Speaker 3: if she still would have dealt with suicidal ideation, right.
43:41
Speaker 4: Like, if that saved her, he's amazing.
43:44
Speaker 2: Yeah mm hmm.
43:46
Speaker 3: And it and in her words it seems like it
43:49
Speaker 3: did because she said it was the arm of God
43:52
Speaker 3: or whatever it was. So yeah, I mean not only
43:59
Speaker 3: was she a pioneer, I mean for her own personal sake,
44:01
Speaker 3: like her experience with finding God in this way might
44:06
Speaker 3: have been very fortuit is for her, right, Yeah.
44:10
Speaker 1: And I do think one of the comforts of religion
44:15
Speaker 1: is that we live in a world that feels very
44:19
Speaker 1: out of your control, out of your like you don't
44:21
Speaker 1: have power to control it a lot. And so when
44:24
Speaker 1: I see people sometimes talk about it, it.
44:27
Speaker 2: Feels like.
44:30
Speaker 1: It's like a way of saying, well, I did everything
44:32
Speaker 1: I could, but there's some things I just can't control.
44:35
Speaker 1: But I love that Jarina in that moment stood up
44:39
Speaker 1: like she did it almost the opposite of like I'm
44:42
Speaker 1: gonna stand up, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to
44:45
Speaker 1: deliver this sermon, sit back down. So it's almost like
44:49
Speaker 1: she was making her own path in my interpretation. But
44:54
Speaker 1: also I feel that that is what religion why comforts
44:58
Speaker 1: so many people is that you can do like everything
45:02
Speaker 1: and some things are just out of your control.
45:04
Speaker 2: Yeah m hm.
45:06
Speaker 3: When you were talking about her standing up in that
45:09
Speaker 3: moment and making her own path, I was just thinking
45:12
Speaker 3: about the people like who are like I made this
45:14
Speaker 3: role for myself, you know, you.
45:16
Speaker 2: Know how the language around like the corporate boss girl
45:21
Speaker 2: and go make it.
45:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's what Jarina was doing.
45:27
Speaker 4: She was ahead of our times over time, okay.
45:31
Speaker 3: And that is also just a great scene cinematically, a
45:36
Speaker 3: great cinematic scene. I had a really good time reading
45:42
Speaker 3: and that part of her autobiography. So having says that
45:47
Speaker 3: I will at the caveat that. Yes, everyone go read
45:51
Speaker 3: her autobiography. You know, I will give y all the
45:55
Speaker 3: link to it online so y'all can get.
45:57
Speaker 2: To it directly.
45:59
Speaker 3: But I will say there are great moments, and in
46:03
Speaker 3: some moments is drags. It's one of those experiences because
46:07
Speaker 3: there are moments like that one that are really fun
46:09
Speaker 3: to read, and then there is well, I did one
46:12
Speaker 3: hundred and seventy eight sermons, and I walked twenty two
46:15
Speaker 3: and twenty one miles and then I went to Philadelphia
46:18
Speaker 3: and then I walked down the road and I did
46:21
Speaker 3: this sermon and then I.
46:22
Speaker 2: Met these two people.
46:23
Speaker 3: Oh, like, it is a lot. It gets to be
46:26
Speaker 3: a slog in some moments, y'all. I'm gonna be real.
46:29
Speaker 2: Got some issues, It's got some pacing it. Thank you.
46:33
Speaker 2: Let's let's talk craz.
46:38
Speaker 3: Yeah that that was the critic in you coming out.
46:41
Speaker 3: I love to see it, but it definitely does. So
46:45
Speaker 3: your eyes might glaze over in those moments, but I will.
46:48
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for it existing because we learned so much
46:51
Speaker 3: about her day to day and how she was feeling
46:54
Speaker 3: about it, and I wonder if it was a comfort
46:56
Speaker 3: for her. I mean, it might just be part of
46:57
Speaker 3: her personality. But she kept so any notes on the
47:00
Speaker 3: things that she did that I don't do, and I'm
47:02
Speaker 3: just like, wow, Like, there is no way I would
47:05
Speaker 3: be able to recall these things with such great detail
47:08
Speaker 3: about you know, in my life, and I don't keep
47:10
Speaker 3: such detailed notes day to day, like in a diary
47:14
Speaker 3: kind of way, about each person I'm at each place.
47:17
Speaker 3: I went so grateful for her knowing that her story
47:20
Speaker 3: was important as it was happening, and that she was
47:23
Speaker 3: supposed to record it, and that she was supposed to
47:26
Speaker 3: publish it.
47:28
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and this was thanks again us for bringing
47:33
Speaker 1: this story to us. This was a great one and obviously, yep,
47:36
Speaker 1: we have a lot to say about religion.
47:37
Speaker 2: So where can the good listeners find you?
47:42
Speaker 3: Y'all can find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. That's
47:46
Speaker 3: pretty much the only social media I'm on right now.
47:48
Speaker 3: But you can get in contact with me at Evesjeffcoat
47:53
Speaker 3: dot com. That's spelled Yvees jeff Coat exactly like it sounds.
48:00
Speaker 3: You can also find me on many many other episodes
48:03
Speaker 3: of Sminty here doing female First, talking about women who
48:06
Speaker 3: were pioneers in history. And you can catch me on
48:10
Speaker 3: on Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling.
48:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, yes, and listeners go check out all
48:20
Speaker 1: of that stuff if you have not already, Thanks as
48:23
Speaker 1: always Eves for being with us, and you can contact
48:28
Speaker 1: us listeners if you would like. You can email us
48:30
Speaker 1: at Steffandia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can
48:32
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on
48:34
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've never told you. We
48:37
Speaker 1: have a YouTube, we have a tea public store. We
48:39
Speaker 1: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
48:41
Speaker 1: Thanks as always here a super producer, Christina executed producer
48:44
Speaker 1: and a contributed jolly thank you and thanks to you
48:47
Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff I Never told you is production iHeartRadio.
48:49
Speaker 1: For more podcast from My Heart Radio, you can check
48:50
Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
48:53
Speaker 1: to favorite shows. No