Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of Elton John: One half of the duo who changed pop forever

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The Story of Elton John: One half of the duo who changed pop forever · GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast

• Garage to Stadiums: The Story of Elton John with host Dave Anthony and guest Gillian Gaar Dave Anthony 0:01 Dave, Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony, and this is the garage to stadiums podcast rated as one of the top 5% of podcasts globally. On each episode, we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that mark that journey. Welcome to garage, to stadiums. Today's episode is the story of Elton John. Elton John's real name was Reginald Kenneth Dwight, and he was born in Middlesex England in 1947 he's one of the most successful and influential artists in music history, emerging in the early 1970s with countless timeless hits. He's sold over 300 million records worldwide and built a legendary partnership with lyricist Bernie toppin, known for his flamboyant costume, dazzling live appearances and unmatched showmanship, he's captivated audience across generations. He's released a staggering 33 studio albums, including live albums, soundtracks and compilation he's released over 60 albums throughout his career. He's earned six Grammy Awards, two Academy Awards, a Tony Award and an Emmy, making him a rare EGOT winner. He's also won two Golden Globe Awards. Was inducted into the Rock and Roll of Fame in 1994 and was knighted by Queen Elizabeth in 1996 Elton John remains a cultural icon whose popularity and legacy continue to shine globally. Here to discuss John's life and career is Gillian Garr, author of Elton John, Captain Fantastic on the yellow brick road. He's written extensively on music and entertainment for a variety of publications, including Rolling Stone, Mojo and goldmine. In addition to being a senior editor at rocket magazine, Gillian is the author of over 15 music biography books, including books on Green Day Nirvana, Jimi Hendrix and the history of women in rock and roll. She joins us today from Seattle. Welcome to garage the stadiums. Jillian, great to be here. We're going to talk today about an icon of rock, Elton John and this book that you've written, Captain Fantastic on the yellow brick road, and it really lays out his career and milestones in a in a beautifully mapped out fashion. Well, thank you. I wanted to touch on that linear fashion, obviously, and go back to Elton's, or in, you know, Reg Dwight's childhood, and talk a little bit about the household he grew in, and maybe the effect that had on him. Jillian 2:39 Well, I think probably the key thing for him when he was a child was that his parents didn't get along very well, and they argued a lot when they were both home together. His father was in the military, so he was off and away, but when he was home, they would argue, and so there was a lot of tension in the household, and Elton would stay in his room a lot as a result, or Reg, as he was then, and his parents did divorce at age 13, when he was 13, but still, that's a long time to live in a household of tension. Dave Anthony 3:11 How did they sort of discover his musicality? You know, it Jillian 3:14 seems like he was one of those people that was born with this innate talent, because he began playing the piano when he was very young, and he was one of those that could just, you know, pick out tunes on the piano after he'd heard them once on the radio, that kind of thing. You hear of some musicians that are like that. They just, they just have that gift, and who knows where it comes from. It's just something you're born with. So, so when he was slightly older, I mean, he could play piano well enough that his parents would have put him to bed, but if they were having a party or having their friends over, they'd wake him up and bring him back out to the main room to play the piano and entertaining everybody. So his so his talent was pretty obvious from from the get Dave Anthony 3:55 go and you write, not only did he start to play by ear when he heard it 10, but once his mother remarried, had the stepfather that they actually coordinated him to get a gig in a local pub. I mean, he was performing there as a teenager. It sounds like they were all for it. Jillian 4:13 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, a great way to make money, and when you think about it's it's a good place to really develop broad musical skills, because this is just, you know, the neighborhood pub. You're local, and just person who's there regularly playing, not a special band at a club that people have come in to see. You're just the in house entertainment. And so you have to learn to play a wide variety of material. You know, maybe someone's going to request something they heard on the radio. But I don't know if you've been to England and been to like the local pubs, it's very we've got people of all age groups. You've got families there. So you've got people from a lot of different generations asking to play different asking to hear different things. So he had to learn all that, and I think that's why his muse. Skills were so broad because he had to learn to play just about anything that was required of him, which, of course, stood him in good stead when he became a session musician. Dave Anthony 5:10 Then he had other early musical influences, Buddy Holly and sort of early rockers were some of his his influences, Jillian 5:18 yeah, well, especially Elvis. Who really was this dominant figure on the British Isle in the British Isles, even though he never played a show there. I think people today don't, younger people in particular, don't realize how well shocking someone like Elvis was, at that time, to the sensibilities of the day. He was, you know, considered a genuinely shocking personality, whereas today we're so overfed. I don't know what could really shock some shock you now in in popular entertainment anyway, then he, you know, he definitely was, he was, he was so different. And I remember reading, and it was an interview with one of the Beatles, and even his name Elvis Presley, sounded odd. Who else was named Elvis? It wasn't a Yeah, yeah. Dave Anthony 6:09 That's a really good point. When we had our Bruce Springsteen story, and Peter Ames Carlin was the guest and author of a Bruce book, he said almost identically, what you said that people don't appreciate how big of an influence and how odd it was to see as as Bruce Springsteen said, Elvis was a new kind of man like you just couldn't believe what you were seeing. So it reinforces exactly what you said, and so much so I found it humorous that you said, he continued to wear glasses so that he could look like Buddy Holly, one of the rockers of that area, yeah, Unknown Speaker 6:46 had it screwed up his eyesight. Dave Anthony 6:50 He was so dedicated to the look that he wore the glasses way too much, and it affected his eyesight. Jillian 6:56 Well, yeah, he should have. He should have just had, you know, clear plastic or something, Dave Anthony 7:01 in addition to Elvis Presley and Buddy Holly, Reg was fascinated by the likes of Chuck Berry, Eddie Cochran and Carl Perkins. But in particular, it was piano players, Jerry Lee Lewis, Unknown Speaker 7:25 Little Richard Dave Anthony 7:35 that caught his eye the most, he would emulate their aggressive Piano thumping styles in high school bands, and by 1966 his band called Blue zoology, had released two underwhelming singles and found yet found steady work as a live act, touring with the animals Stevie Wonder and Patti LaBelle. By the end of 1967 reg Dwight left blues ology, but took something important with them, two of the members names, he combined the names of bandmates, Elton Dean and Long John Baldry to create his own stage name. Elton John, also in 1967 he made an acquaintance that would change his life. Yeah. So how did his early partnership with Bernie Coppin. How did that come about? Jillian 8:26 It was just by happenstance, and it could very easily not have happened, which is the other thing about why one might think, oh, it's spade, it's your destiny. So Elton had answered this ad that Liberty records had placed in the music press about, you know, wanting to work with new artists and singers and performers and such. And Elvis Elton down. We'll say Elvis Elton answered and went in and played some of the stuff. And the guy, the ANR man, wasn't that impressed, but he did recognize something about Elton. He had a broad knowledge of music, obviously a skilled musician, and just kind of as an afterthought, he said to Well, yeah, we don't really want to sign you, but maybe. And here I got this stack of lyrics from this fellow who sent them in, so why don't you take them and see what you think of them? And that was from Bernie, who had seen the same ad and sent he said, Well, you know, I'm not a composer, but I'm a lyricist. And so here's some of the things I've written, and he just sent it a sampling of his work. So, I mean, just think if that A and R guy hadn't remembered, oh, yeah, I have these lyrics here. Why don't you take a look at them, you know? Or what if Elvis had met with a different person who didn't have Bernie's lyrics in his office? I mean, it's really just the vagaries of fate, Dave Anthony 9:49 absolutely. And you talk about where Bernie came from, which is this the strangest pairing of two people? One's from the outskirt. Of London, and maybe tell the audience a little bit about where Bernie grew up, because it's not in London. Well, he was a rural Jillian 10:05 England, and I'm not going to try and pronounce those places, but you know where he was working at a chicken farm at the time. This ANR fellow passed the lyrics on to Elton, and I think that was the big influence in his life, growing up in this isolated and boring environment there again. I mean, if he had, if he'd grown up in London himself or the suburbs like like Elton, did you know maybe they never would have met, because he'd have had more opportunities come along, and maybe he'd have gone off in his own band or whatever, just taken a different path. But he really just wanted to get out of that kind of life, and wasn't sure how he was going to do it, so he saw that ad, and thought, Well, why not? All right, and you know, that was, that was his ticket out of working on a chicken farm for the rest of his life. Dave Anthony 10:59 Yeah, no kidding, that from chicken farm to the big time, that's quite the slogan. John and toppin joined Dick James music as staff songwriters in 1968 penning easy listening tunes for a variety of artists. John also kept busy doing session work. His original debut album, called regimental Sergeant Zippo was scrapped by record label head Dick James because he did not approve of the beatlesque Psychedelic nature of the album, feeling that Elton should instead be positioned more as a singer songwriter. You Dave Anthony 11:46 so Elton's debut album did not come out until 1969 entitled empty sky, which did not chart and received mixed reviews. Dave Anthony 12:02 I'm by early 1970 not having seen much return on their investment in Elton and Bernie Dick James music was beginning to lose patience. They put out the Elton. John Elton, I guess that's kind of a last stand. It's almost like you better put out a hit, says the record company, and they respond with the album Elton John, which has your song, and you Unknown Speaker 12:37 can tell everybody, this is your Unknown Speaker 12:41 song, and maybe quiet. Simple, but now that it's done, Dave Anthony 12:48 take me to the pilot Dave Anthony 13:02 order song. Dave Anthony 13:13 I mean, that's a heck of a response to that gauntlet that they threw up against these two guys. Jillian 13:18 Yeah. I mean, they'd had an album out before empty sky, that was his first one. But then Elton John comes along, and, yeah, it has those quality songs on it. I think what people don't always remember, or maybe even know, was that initially, Elton wasn't that interested in being a singer himself. He was a musician and a songwriter, and he really wanted people to, you know, do his Psalms. And finally, he was paired with a lyricist. And so some of their early efforts, they were just trying to attract the attention of people in their writing, not necessarily him as a performer, although he was a performer too. I mean, when you think about those, those years in between when they met and when Elton finally broke through. I mean, in addition to writing their own stuff, Yale was working as a session musician, playing with all different kinds of people, and sometimes, you know, he'd been in boozology and other bands so, so there was a lot going on. Dave Anthony 14:16 And to your point, Aretha Franklin recorded a version of border song. Dave Anthony 14:31 So you're absolutely correct when you say that they sort of put out the music thinking, well, we'll bis become composers, writers for other people, and they'll do our songs like it's a completely different kind of track that they were thinking. So next we'll hear about a renowned music club in Los Angeles that set the stage for the discovery of Elton and his breakthrough. Speaker 1 14:56 Want more garage to stadiums. Check out. Garage to stadiums.com. For. Official playlists, concert footage and other interesting facts for each episode, Dave Anthony 15:09 the Troubadour in West Hollywood is one of the most legendary clubs in rock history, serving as a springboard for countless artists Since opening in 1957 in the mid 60s, the Troubadour was central to the rise of folk rock artists like Linda Ronstadt, the birds in Buffalo Springfield played early shows there, helping to define the quote Laurel Canyon sound. And by 19 6970, the Troubadour had become one of the central breeding grounds for what we now call the singer songwriter movement. It became a launching pad for Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Jackson, brown, Carole King, and in late August, 1970 the Troubadour was where Elton John made his American debut. It proved to be the most important gig of his career. One of the key turning points was the Troubadour Club in 1970 Yeah. Jillian 16:04 Well, Elton had been offered a tour opening for Jeff Beck of in the US, and he'd wanted to do that. He thought that would be a good way to introduce him to us audiences. But by then, he was signed to Dick James music, the publisher who'd turned it down. And Elton was just horrifying, like, Why did you turn down this great opportunity? But Dick James saw something at Elton and knew it was going to break, and the two albums were getting some attention in America, and the company releasing the records over there in the US wanted to bring him over and give him a showcase. So they're the ones that set up, bringing him to LA and setting him up with a troubadour, which, you know, had a great reputation as a music venue. And you know, all the big names would drop in to see you on your opening night, as Elton Goddard remember big names at his opening night, and he did, you know a club. So it's a smaller, more intimate venue, and you can obviously make more of an impact than even if you're in a theater. So, so he had that going for him. And, I mean, he'd watch people piano players, and the things they would do to attract attention to themselves, because obviously, it's harder when you're a piano player and you're sitting there all the time, not like a guitarist, who can, you know, go around pose, all that type of stuff. So, you know, he, I think he had the moment where he kicked away the piano bench, just like Jerry Lee Lewis would, right, yeah, yeah. So I think, obviously, for for the Troubadour show, you're going to pick your best stuff. And it was the audience just fell in love with him that. And he got rave reviews. And, I mean, sure you can't say, oh, okay, I've conquered America, because this is one club in LA, and that's not America is a very big country, but it certainly gave him a good start. You know, it was a good platform for him to rise from, and he had all the good Dave Anthony 17:57 reviews from it, right? Yeah. And as you said, the influential people in the audience was included, Neil Diamond, Quincy Jones, Brian Wilson and Mike Love of the Beach Boys, Linda Ronstadt, Don Henley, future of the Eagles and I guess, in Linda's band at the time. And Randy Newman, David Crosby, Stephen Stills and Graham Nash. How's that for an opening audience? Jillian 18:20 Great. Also, might make one a little nervous, too, of Dave Anthony 18:23 course, oh my goodness, yeah. And from there, I guess kind of he becomes the IT guy relative to some of the critics, or, you know, the reviews, as you said, of the show, it seems like acts like David Bowie Elton, John Stevie Wonder. I mean, these guys own sort of that 1971 to 7576 period. What do you think? What? What were the combination of things that made Elton such a breakout star? What would you say that you kind of think are the variables that he really why he resonated in particular? Jillian 18:59 Well, I mean, first it has to go back to the songs that, you know, a lot of them had kind of a literary quality to them, almost, and that was, and that was certainly due to Bernie's lyrics. I mean, they both liked songwriters like Dylan and Leonard Cohen. Speaker 2 19:16 Susan takes your hand and she leads you to the river. She is wearing rags and feathers from the Salvation Army Jillian 19:29 count. You know how important language and words were in their songs? I mean, sometimes with a big, big rock song, you know the lyrics, if they're not literally nonsensical, they don't necessarily mean anything, because they're just going more for a song. More for a sound and a feel. But you you had artists like Leonard and Cohen and Dylan, who were, you know, really taking to the next level, saying, Well, you know, a song can mean something too. It can say something. And, I mean, I know initially they thought of Dylan as a protest singer, but then he goes on, he does a. You know, a lot of very interesting, almost surreal type of things, playing with the language and commenting starred as a poet, same thing. So that that had a big influence on Bernie. He loved that you could, you could do this with popular song. So, yeah, you look at the songs that Elton was doing and lyrically, they're rather more complex than some other things that came out during that era. I mean, the top had room for both. It had the more literary things, but it also had the lighter type stuff, right? Dave Anthony 20:34 The Do you think he played a role in shaping, sort of the glam rock, just the way he dressed, and those kind of things, or was that just more Bowie and others? Jillian 20:44 Well, he was certainly flamboyant. I mean, even on that first trip to LA he picked up some fun things, and then it just kind of grew from there, didn't it that the outfits got bigger and more and more outlandish, and the bigger glasses and the headdresses and the capes, it's kind of like he was trying to outdo Elvis with it is jumpsuit era. Yeah, yeah, that's right, but that was part of glam. He was perhaps not so much androgynous in the way Bowie was, but he was certainly being over the top. And that was definitely part of glam, being over the top and outrageous. Dave Anthony 21:20 He basically, you know, from 70 to 76 it represents a prolific, transformative period in his career. During these years, he evolved from, you know, a rising singer to a global rock icon, really, and your book beautifully chronicles his various albums. Let's for fun. Go through a couple of them and you give us your thoughts. We've talked about the first one, Elton, John, then there's this Tumbleweed connection. Jillian 21:50 Well, on tumbleweed, I think you know the highlight would have to be burned down the mission in proper length. It's this, it's six minutes plus. Yeah, Jillian 22:13 and certainly, Elton wrote a share of two and three minute catchy pop songs. But this one was, you know, you would say it's an epic. It showed he wasn't afraid to go into that kind of territory, right? Dave Anthony 22:26 Guess, that was Bernie's kind of a American West influence, would it have been with? And because he liked the band and those kind of, those kind of Americana bands, was that was that sort Jillian 22:38 of, he liked the mythos of of the Old West, you know, I guess would think of it as perhaps the late 1800s type West and and all that cowboy imagery that was always something he was drawn to. So that's one reason he loved going to America. He eventually relocated to America and lived there, you know, he was looking forward to that. It's incredible. Dave Anthony 22:59 It's incredible it's incredible that he was writing about this world that he'd Jillian 23:03 actually never been in. Yeah. I mean, his only experiences would have been like largely seeing it from the movies and maybe stuff on television. Dave Anthony 23:10 So that Tumbleweed had Where to now, St Peter in my in Dave Anthony 23:23 my amarina, as you said, burned down the mission. Madman across the water, released in November 71 Tiny Dancer. Tiny dance. Unknown Speaker 23:52 Room leave on Speaker 3 23:55 in a garage by the motorway you he, he was born upon the two upon on a Christmas bed when the New York Times had Jillian 24:09 gone well, tiny dancers, especially now, you know, it was kind of like the the hidden gem that was waiting to be discovered. So, yeah, I'd point to that as a highlight, Dave Anthony 24:21 because that really he stopped playing that in concert. And then, of course, the movie, almost famous, comes out in 2000 with the cast singing it on the tour bus. And that put that song back in circulation. Even Elton started to play it again, saying it's one of his favorite songs, but it never really got the the attention that it deserved, I guess, until that point. Jillian 24:45 Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, Cameron didn't put it in the movie to do that. He just put it in the film because it was the right song for that scene, and it just sort of indicated the communal feel of of being on tour and and your band. Against the World type of thing, and it just spit in all well, because they could all sing it together. They all know it. It's it was a very communal moment. Dave Anthony 25:07 And one of the interesting thing about the lyrics, which I learned in your book, was that Bernie toppin, the seamstress for the band that was ultimately his girlfriend at the time, who helped with the clothes and maintaining the band's costumes, Unknown Speaker 25:32 seamstress for the band. Dave Anthony 25:37 And he ends up marrying her. Unknown Speaker 25:41 You marry Music Man, Jillian 25:46 yeah, yeah. Think of all those rhinestones she had to look after. That was another part of his American dream, finding the American girlfriend. Dave Anthony 25:57 Oh, there you go. Interesting. Um, honky, Chateau, it's gone Rocket Man. Dave Anthony 26:21 Mona Lisa and Mad Hatters, Speaker 3 26:25 while more visas and Mad Hatters, sons of bankers, sons turn around and say, Good morning. Dave Anthony 26:37 My goodness, the hits just keep on coming. Jillian 26:39 Yeah. I mean, I suppose, I suppose one would say the that Rocket Man was the highlight, but I always liked honky cat because it had that kind of jumpy rhythm. Unknown Speaker 26:52 Better get back to the world. Jillian 27:00 Them. You know, I remember that one coming out of the radio, although Rocket Man gets all the kudos, etc, etc. Dave Anthony 27:10 Yes, it's sort of that introduced some, some more complex song structures in that, in that, in that album. The next one was, don't shoot me. I'm only the piano player, which he gets. Kind of, it's funny because it's, you know, I got Daniel on one side, which is this, sort of, I don't know if it's a sad song. Do you Speaker 3 27:42 still feel the pain? But Dave Anthony 27:49 then you got crocodile rock, which is a complete on the other end of the spectrum, Speaker 3 27:58 holding hands and skimming stones. Dave Anthony 28:05 And that was kind of a, I guess that would be a nod to their past with some of the rock icons that they like themselves, Bernie and Elton, Jillian 28:14 yeah, yeah. I suppose that's probably my favorite Elton song. It's certainly the one I played the most. I think crocodile rock. So, yeah, I love that one. Still do, though, apparently Elton got tired of playing it. And he said that after he finished his his final big tour, he was never going to play it again. Dave Anthony 28:34 Yeah, you must have played that 1000s of times the the it was recorded in France, which I guess is one of the reasons the Chateau name came in there. And one of the producers that is continuous on the in this period, where he's kind of in his classic period, is Gus Dudgeon. He earlier had worked, I think, with Bowie, on his auditing Unknown Speaker 28:56 ground control to Major tones, 7676, Unknown Speaker 29:03 commencing countdown engines on Dave Anthony 29:07 Space Oddity and he and then he got involved with Elton and and so forth The and then, of course, goodbye yellow brick road down. Out. Dave Anthony 29:34 We're nearing the peak Elton phase. Here they talk about peak energy. This could be peak Elton. Here we go with. Well, you tell us what you liked on that album. Jillian 29:44 Well, my favorites, that's that would be my favorite album of him. That was actually the only one I owned for many years, along with the greatest hits, the first Greatest Hits, I Dave Anthony 29:55 think I've seen that in everybody's record collection that album. It's the one that seems to be. The one that's everyone has, Jillian 30:01 well, I always liked the opening funeral for a friend segueing into love lies bleeding. Jillian 30:19 Those are always my two favorite, you know, just very intense plus a very strong instrumental. Well, of course, maybe other people point to things like Benny and the Jets. You Unknown Speaker 30:40 the belly on the Unknown Speaker 30:45 jet. So Saturday nights all right for fighting. Jillian 31:02 But yeah, no, I like those first two. Well, this now I guess Candle in the Wind years later, when the Jillian 31:20 rain said, which was not one of my favorites on the album. But how does one of those you play the album through. You listen to the album as a complete experience. You don't pick and choose some people, especially with CDs. Now, they'll say, or, I guess online, oh yeah, I skipped that song. Well, no, I don't like it. I want to hear the album if I'm putting the album. Dave Anthony 31:43 Yeah, and it was a lot of work to skip an album when it was a record. Jillian 31:46 Oh, well, yeah, you had to look that up and sit down just right spot. Dave Anthony 31:51 Jillian mentioned Benny and the Jets. That song was released as a single in 1974 and became a true crossover hit for Elton. It's mix of glam rock swagger and soul grooves topped both the pop and R B charts. Then in 1975 Elton made history as the first white artist to perform on Soul Train, breaking cultural barriers and cementing the song's place as a landmark of crossover success. It's also got candle in the wind. Goodbye a little bit road. That one was 17 tracks, and really showcased their versatility on that album. The last one we'll talk about, well, maybe we'll talk about two more caribou, which that was recorded, what June 1974 and it was the first studio album recorded in the US, which I found interesting. Jillian 32:46 They went up to or Colorado. They went up to the caribou studios. I remember, I think that was seen as something of a letdown after yellow brick road. But then that tends to happen. You get a huge album like that. The next one isn't necessarily going to be huger. They're usually not. Dave Anthony 33:04 It had the bitches back. Dave Anthony 33:18 And don't let the sun go down on me. Dave Anthony 33:35 And apparently the bitches back is a reference to Elton that he wrote in the book that Bernie's was it Bernie's wife thought, well, he was being a bitch, yeah? Jillian 33:44 Which, you know, Elton took it in good spirit. But I do think that at that time, it caused some problems getting played on the radio, US radio anyway, about, Dave Anthony 33:55 yeah, yeah, the last one, Captain Fantastic, in the brown dirt cowboy. Now this is what an autobiographical look at the two, is it Jillian 34:05 not? Yeah, yeah. I mean, by then, you know, you're we were talking about the sort of western influences in birdies earlier work, but now they'd had enough of their own adventures, and they could sort of mythologize them. I mean, even the title has not the Captain Fantastic part so much, but obviously the brown dirt cowboy, there's your western reference in there. It exudes that kind of theme. But yeah, now, now it's, it's certainly more self referential. Dave Anthony 34:34 Yeah. This thing debuted at number one on Billboard. I want, Dave Anthony 34:51 which is, I think, the first time that's ever happened for an hour. Yeah, yeah. So that was that, that was May 75 and even Jillian 34:59 out. What do you even the cover? It almost looks like it's parroting the goodbye yellow brick road album cover, in a way, Dave Anthony 35:05 good point, because it's got all those cartoonish kind of figures the Jillian 35:09 raid, yeah, yeah, kind of a caricature type of thing. Dave Anthony 35:14 To recap. During the first half of the 1970s Elton John was unstoppable in just five short years. He unleashed nine smash studio albums, one soundtrack, a thunderous live record and a blockbuster greatest hits collection. Six of those studio albums rocketed straight to number one on the charts, a staggering feat. Elton wasn't just releasing records. He was reinventing himself with every one. Each album carried a different sound, a different mood, yet all of them bore the unmistakable mark of the genius of both Elton and lyricist Bernie toppin. What is it about his partnership with Bernie? Is it the versatility of the songs, the depth, the musicality? I mean, Jillian 35:58 they just, they just were a good fit for each other. So I think that's just why they were able to go along. I was, I was fascinated to learn that, you know, Elton would wait to get the lyrics and then he'd write the music. That's usually how they do it. Bernie would write all the lyrics out, and then he'd give them to Elton, and Elton would write the music. And that just, I don't know, it almost seemed kind of like a factory type of setup, you know, going down. Yeah, they may have seen that that partly in in that way, but, you know, very craftsman ship like, although sometimes, you know, Elton would make a lyrical suggestion, and I think there's other songs where he certainly is crowded with lyrics. So he was capable. That just wasn't his greatest strength. And obviously it was Bernie's and, well, I suppose maybe having having a British sensibility too, that would make it different from anything else going on in America. You know, you could see David Bowie and Elton John having more of a similarity together, because they're both Dave Anthony 36:59 British. Why do you think they stopped writing together in 1976 How does he do six? He just Jillian 37:03 wanted a break, you know, from from each other. And you work with one person, you see this happen with changing management too. There's not necessarily anything wrong. You just want to try something different for a bit. It was probably good. I mean, by that time, you know, he'd hit his peak, Elton had, and things were going down a bit, so it was probably time for a change. Anyway, to see, I think it gave them a respite from having to deal with each other. And I think Bernie wanted to go off and write for other people as well and explore what that was like. And Elton wanted to see, well, what would it be like if I work with with different lyricists? So I don't know. It was anything. They certainly didn't have. It wasn't like an argument or falling out or anything. And obviously they came back and worked together again eventually, I think they must have realized then they were best with each other than they were with other people. Dave Anthony 37:59 You mentioned that process they had together. They weren't even in the same room ever, but they somehow just melded into these beautiful songs. And I think Bernie went on to write for people like Alice Cooper when they split up, like he was really going the other way, or at least experimenting with other artists. Elton's meteoric success came with a dangerous descent into cocaine, alcohol and bulimia. These addictions fueled by pressure and isolation, damaged his health and strained relationships, even as he continued to release hit records and tour by the late 1980s his substance use had reached crisis levels. In 1990 he entered a Chicago rehabilitation clinic committing fully to sobriety. Speaker 1 38:45 Do you love Bruce Springsteen, Fleetwood Mac David Bowie and the who listen to more garage to stadiums on all podcast streaming platforms, Dave Anthony 38:55 he had some real struggles with addiction. I kind of forgot how long it lasted, like, addiction, addiction, and I'll call it an identity, through the 70s and 80s. I think it was 1990 that he became sober, like, Finally, yeah, like, after 20 years, he said of going out, at heart, Jillian 39:16 he could have quite easily died. But there was something that rang in his head that said, No, I really do want to get out of this. So lucky. It's funny, yeah. And, I mean, of course, the music industry, I'll say the entertainment industry in particular, that stuff's all around you, especially alcohol, being the legal drug. So you know, it can start with that, but yeah, it's just so pervasive, and to the point that then when people see you start doing drugs, no one's going to say anything, because it's just almost expected, in a way, part of the scene. And if you've got an addictive personality, then that's going to cause you a lot of problems, as it did with him. Dave Anthony 39:57 Yeah, he was so over the top with it. It like, like you said, how did he survive? I mean, the tours, the out, the albums are killing the chirps, like he's doing so well, but the tours of our non stop, I mean, the cranking out an album a year and and he's us these, you're just like, how did he Hang Hang it all together, this 1976 interview he does with Rolling Stones. He says he's bisexual. Did it resonate with an audience? Jillian 40:23 One thing also that I don't think I knew until working on this book. I mean, it made the national news in this country. When he said that he was on whatever show Walter Cronkite was on that evening news, he made the national news. Wow, that's pretty incredible. I can't think of that happening today, unless it was, I don't know, someone really unexpected. But even then, you know, is that going to be on the nighttime news? Of course, it's a different media culture now, and it would be tweeted out blah blah. But yeah, so it was deemed important enough to get on the national news. And I read that, yeah, some stations did stop playing his music. And, I mean, I was in, well, I guess it would have been in high school then. And I mean, people were were just so uptight about the idea of non heterosexuality. And just even saying the word bisexual or homosexual, even that was just a huge deal to say, yeah, and especially if you were in the suburbs, and especially, I think, if you were a teenage boy, maybe extra, especially if you were gay yourself. But I mean, I remember, uh, same era, and no guy in my high school would admit to liking the band Queen, because no teenage boy is going to say they like a band called queen, and Freddie hadn't even really said anything about himself then, um, although, when I went to my first concert in Queen concert in 1977 there are plenty of guys in the audience. So obviously there were guys that were that were Queen fans, probably more guys than girls. Dave Anthony 41:55 Well, it's interesting. You say that because Mark Blake was on, he did the he was on our story of Queen episode. He's written a few books on Freddie and the band, and he said, Here's Freddie Mercury hiding in plain sight, basically the way he looked, the way he strutted, the way he did anything, the way he dressed. And I guess Elton similarly with his costumes. And it all kind of made sense, when you look back, that he was almost kind of, I don't know he was almost like saying, This is who I am. Jillian 42:21 Well, he and I, I felt that in that interview, he was hedging a bit. You know, he doesn't necessarily say he's bisexual. I don't think that's the exact quote I am bisexual. He sort of, he uses the word and sort of hints around and, oh, I don't think there's a pro an issue of anyone going to bed with a man or a woman, that kind of thing. Yeah, doesn't quite apply it to himself, but, you know, he wasn't really that bisexual. I mean, he did have some sexual experience with women, yes, but it was pretty minimal. And I think I even put my book, yeah, you could say he was bisexual, but only just right. And he'd even said, Oh yeah, I'd like to have a long term relationship. And he he did have one with, um, John Reed, who went on to be his manager. So, so he didn't, you know, he didn't mention that, but, um, I think that was Bowie's thing too, wasn't it? I mean, he said he was bisexual, didn't he, right? He's a Rolling Stone. It just, yeah, it was. It was a shocking thing to say. Dave Anthony 43:21 Then it was probably the Androgyny of that 70s glam that kind of made it somewhat okay, but they were still hedging their bets a little to your point. The the thing that I find interesting about this program, and we've had a lot of you know, we have a lot lot of young listeners, and I think they're kind of blown away by how a lot of these people pave the way for cultural change just by making these announcements like these were forbidden topics and rock and roll, certainly with drugs and sex and all sorts of things like, it kind of changed the culture of our times like these guys were. They're the ones who young people look to for sort of the the lead, Speaker 4 44:03 if you will. Yeah, yeah, definitely, in the late Dave Anthony 44:07 1970s and early 80s would see more radio and MTV hits for Elton, and he continued to build his legacy as a pop culture icon. He becomes the first major act to tour behind the iron curtain with a 1979 tour of the USSR, appeared on The Muppet Show and performed in New York City's Central Park in front of 400,000 people in a Donald Duck costume. He went on to have more hits in the 80s. I guess that's why they call it the blues. My Dave Anthony 44:48 blue. I'm still standing feeling. Dave Anthony 45:03 Sad songs say so much. Dave Anthony 45:12 But what, in your opinion, Jillian made the 70s output so musically and lyrically rich compared to that later work? Jillian 45:18 Well, working with different lyricists that would, that would be the thing. But, yeah, there was an energy in the 70s. And I think you just, you put it well, saying, you know, you can't be at the peak forever. And Elton himself says something like that in his memoir. In the middle of that run of success, he said, you know, he knew, you know, it's not going to be like this forever. You have to be ready and adjust to that. So that was certainly part of it. But then also in the 70s, the albums, sometimes they might have a concept, like Captain Fantastic, but they all sort of hung together and they were more complete works, whereas I think later post 70s, you get to things that are more fragmented, and people remember the hit songs, but they don't necessarily say, oh, and that was a great album, too. I mean, what were you great albums? People could name the hit songs. I don't think people point to his albums at that time. Dave Anthony 46:12 Yeah, it's kind of there. I guess MTV would have played a role in that, right in this 80s, because they the singles, was where it was at the videos, and that might have been a factor too, in that sort of change of emphasis, if you will. Jillian 46:28 Yeah, and singles were selling. Then they were still, you know, entities, whereas now I don't know if, if, I suppose they do have a singles chart, but it's probably based on different things. I don't think people, they certainly don't buy vinyl singles in that way and and now you don't even, some people didn't even want to download the latest single. They just listen to, they just stream it Dave Anthony 46:48 right exactly the he gets married in 1984 to a woman named Renate blow well, was she that was kind of ill fated that didn't last very long? Jillian 47:00 No, and I didn't understand it until reading his memoir, and he said he had felt that his relationships with men hadn't worked out, so maybe men were the problem, and he should try again with women, which I guess that does have a logic to it. Not everyone would think that if they couldn't get their relationships going, but that's what he said. And I thought, Well, okay, I could see that. That makes a kind of sense. But then I think, you know, being with a woman, being married, and having that kind of intimate life with someone, I don't just mean sexually. I just mean, you know, you're married, you're with this person. I think that really brought home to him that, you know, no, this is not where I should be. I really am oriented towards men. That's it. I mean, it was unfortunate for both of them, because it wasn't not a happy parting. And I think in the settlement, they have things where they can't discuss the details of their relationship publicly. At least it did tell them, Okay, I shouldn't be on that path. I should be on this path Speaker 1 48:01 garage to stadiums ranked as one of the top 5% of podcasts globally. Dave Anthony 48:06 We're going to talk about his flexibility and how he was able to move from genre to genre and kind of keep his music current even to today. Jillian 48:13 Another person that Elton worked with well was Tim Rice. When they did things for the Lion King, obviously, started writing things for Disney musicals, and obviously more than just the Lion King, but that was that was the biggie. Dave Anthony 48:26 Elton became involved with the Disney movie The Lion King in the early 1990s when Disney, eager to elevate the musical depth of their animated features, invited him to collaborate with lyricist Tim Rice. Initially skeptical about writing for an animated film, Elton was persuaded by the opportunity to create enduring songs that would reach children and adults alike. His instinct proved correct. His pop melodies, paired with Rice's witty and emotional lyrics, gave the film both heart and universality. Elton composed music for several of the film's most memorable numbers, including circle of life. Hakana, mutada, I just can't wait to be king and the Oscar winning. Can you feel the love tonight? You Dave Anthony 49:20 all released in 1994 the movie grossed nearly $1 billion worldwide during its initial run, becoming one of the most successful animated films of all time. The soundtrack was equally triumphant, selling over 10 million copies in the US and earning multiple awards. The story's success extended to Broadway, where the Lion King musical pioneered in 1997 it went on to gross over 9 billion globally, making it the most successful musical in theater history. Elton's contributions helped cement the Lion King as a cultural touchstone across generations. As the 90s kind of rolled out you mentioned the. The collaboration with Tim Rice and The Lion King. I mean, that that thing was massive. And here's Elton, you know, helping with a cartoon like the guy just, he's very flexible in his ability to kind of transition. Jillian 50:14 And, you know, Jesus Christ Superstar was one of the first albums I got as a teenager. The present from my parents. And so I've been listening to Tim Rice's lyrics for years, you know, since then he went on, and they did with with Andrew Lloyd Webber. They did Evita, and then he was brought on to do some of the Disney stuff. So I've always liked his work. So I thought it was excellent pairing, because he's a very he's a very clever and sometimes bitter lyricist or cynical. Dave Anthony 50:45 The 1990s also saw Elton ramp up his activism in the fight against HIV AIDS, which has been one of the defining causes of his life outside music, deeply affected by the epidemic. In the 1980s when many of his friends and colleagues in the arts community died from the disease, he resolved to use his fame and resources to make a difference. In 1992 he founded the Elton John AIDS Foundation, which has since grown into one of the leading independent aids organizations in the world. The foundation has raised more than 500 million globally, funding prevention programs, supporting access to healthcare and combating stigma in over 90 countries. This activism naturally aligned with his close friend, Princess Diana, who also recognized the importance of compassion and visibility and changing public attitudes. Diana's groundbreaking visit to AIDS patients in 1987 where she shook hands without gloves, challenged fear and prejudice at a time when misinformation was rampant, Elton and Diana shared a common purpose in their work. Both believe their platforms carried a responsibility to fight stigma and bring dignity to those affected. Their shared mission strengthened their personal bond, a friendship that began in the early 80s. Speaker 1 52:01 Want more garage to stadiums, visit us on Instagram, YouTube, X, Facebook and LinkedIn. Dave Anthony 52:11 I wanted you to set the context for something that's part of Elton's one of his key milestones in 1997 Princess Diana dies in the car crash. And I just can't imagine the pressure. But they went to Elton and said, Would you redo Candle in the Wind with new lyrics? And I don't even think he had that much time. Jillian 52:35 And, yeah, I think it was Bernie that came to him with that. And, yeah, kind of unusual choice of song. I think interesting to pick that song. He says that people that had were walking by, you know, they had a memorial place where the public could go and leave their short writings and a memory book that was left out there, and some people were referencing candle in the wind. And I've always been somewhat skeptical about that. If I did, they really, I don't know, it just didn't quite ring true to me. It felt like this story was being created about it. But for whatever reason, they did latch on that song and and, yeah, they didn't have a lot of time made the lyrical changes. Then Elton had to, you know, learn it and do it when they had the big service Westminster Abbey. And, you know, it's being broadcast around the world. So, you know, that's a large audience. Yeah. Dave Anthony 53:39 So the first time he's going to perform this song is in front of a global, billion person audience, Jillian 53:44 yeah, yeah, and in a church, no less, in a church and a memorial service. I mean, think, let's say it was, I don't know, some big, extravagant birthday celebration that was also being broadcast called Dave Anthony 53:57 Yeah, like a joyous, a joyous kind of event if, if, yeah, if you make, compared to Jillian 54:03 make a mistake, you could just sort of laugh it off. Say, whoops, okay, yeah, I'll do it again, and people go with you. But you know, this isn't really the kind of situation where you can do that, yeah, but he pulled it off. You are Unknown Speaker 54:21 the great You are the greatest. Dave Anthony 54:28 And didn't it become the biggest selling single or charitable single of all time, something to that effect, it Jillian 54:34 certainly was the biggest selling single in Britain of all time, and it did sell phenomenally around the world, and it was for charity. You know, some of the proceeds went to charity. So it just raised a bundle of money for them. So that's a good thing. Dave Anthony 54:47 What do you think the lasting legacy of Elton John and maybe even in brackets and Bernie toppin, all the Jillian 54:53 wonderful songs, you know, if they name his hits, that'll take up a couple minutes, whose hit singles include. Did, you know, start back in 1970 sure minutes. And then also, in Elton's case, what a showman he was. Just, you know, with the outfits those, those are certainly the things people are going to remember. But even Princess Diana The Lion King will come to mind, because those were, well, those were even bigger than goodbye, yellow brick road. So those two things might come to mind, and then just the wonderful musical legacy, and then his skill as a performer. Dave Anthony 55:29 What do you think of his music being redone? I mean, he's partnered with Dua Lipa Britney Spears, the synth group now, like these electronica bands like, what? What like? What does that say about him? Jillian 55:42 Well, he's always been a music fan. From the get go, it wasn't just Elvis and Buddy Holly who inspired him. He was one of those kind of geeks who would keep track of record placings and look at record labels and who's the producer and where was this recorded, that kind of thing. He was into all that kind of information. That's from when he was a teenager. You know, he had no pods where he'd keep track of what was in the top 10 and that kind of thing. So he just had a keen interest in music itself. But I know when he came to America the first time, one of the things he was really excited about doing was going to Tower Records on sasset Boulevard in LA to, you know, pick up rep, sure, and eventually, as it come back more and more, you know, they'd close the store so he could run wild and buy 500 albums, or whatever it was. And I think, but I think he's just maintained that interest throughout his life. In May 2005 Dave Anthony 56:38 Elton showcased his versatility once more, not just as a performer, but as a composer. By writing the score for Billy Elliot, the musical based on the 2000 film, it premiered at London's Victoria Palace Theater in the West End, and the show had leapt to Broadway by November 2008 earning widespread acclaim, four Olivier Awards in London and 10 Tony Awards, including Best Musical in New York. This powerful score cemented his reputation as an artist who can seamlessly navigate both chart topping pop and emotionally rich theater. Jillian 57:12 Also, I mean, you mentioned yourself his own flexibility, doing things like the Lion King and Billy Elliot working on that musical, yeah, I think he likes to challenge himself by moving into different areas. And I suppose that's what part of what working with the other artists is, too. And some of them, and they were just kind of astonished that Ellen says, hey, you know, I think he just calls them up, Hi, I'd like to work with you. Yeah, okay, Dave Anthony 57:39 yeah, yeah. Who's on the call? Oh, it's Elton John calling us. What? Jillian 57:43 Yeah, I'm not really doing it, as you know, the backing group, but really collaborating together. I think that gives him, gives him a challenge, and he gets to promote an artist he likes. So there's a lot of things in that for him. Dave Anthony 57:58 Do you have if I said, Do you pick one or two of your favorites, and then one maybe lesser known tune of Elton's that Elton and Bernie's that you that someone should listen to not a lot of people have heard of. Jillian 58:09 Well, I've already talked to. I mean, I'd say crocodile rock, people hopping. Jillian 58:20 Rock. And then And then, maybe the two from goodbye Elbridge road funeral for a friend and love lies bleeding. Speaker 3 58:42 Oh. Love Jillian 58:48 the way they work together. Well, what another song I like on that album is your sister can't twist you. Jillian 59:08 Out, and it's not very long. I don't even know if it's two minutes. People think more of say the Saturday nights All right, for fighting type of song, but, um, yeah, I like your sister can't twist because that's a lot of fun, and it's probably something people don't really pay attention to when they're playing the album. Dave Anthony 59:26 Today, we've been talking to Jillian Garr and she's written this really beautiful book. It's called Elton John Captain Fantastic on the yellow brick road, and it really lays out the linear milestones from Elton's childhood through to global rock icon, his charitable efforts, his effort with the play Billy Elliot and The Lion King, and his versatility. And we wanted to thank you, Jillian, for coming in and illuminating us on Elton's career. Unknown Speaker 59:58 Well. Thank you for. Having me here Dave Anthony 1:00:04 some closing notes on Elton John, a musical prodigy. Elton John was teaching himself to play songs by ear from a very early age. In fact, he reportedly learned to play the famous classical composition, the skaters waltz when he was just three years old. By the time he was 11 years old, he won a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music in London. His teacher said he couldn't read music, but played music back to her perfectly, as we talked about in the episode, the stage name Elton John was procured from the band bluesology. Upon Elton's departure in 1967 he took the first name of sax player Elton Dean and the first name of leader, Long John Baldry. In 1972 the name change was made legal. Reginald Kenneth Dwight officially became Elton Hercules, John. He chose the middle name Hercules, not after the hero of mythology, but after the horse named Hercules on an early 1960s British sitcom called Steptoe and Son. When he was still a session musician, Elton played piano on British band The Holly's 1969 smash hit. He Ain't Heavy. He's my brother, for which he was paid only 12 pounds. How did a chicken farmer save Elton John's career in 1967 Elton answered a New Musical Express ad from Liberty records, asking for composers, singers and musicians. He tried out, but was rejected for lacking lyrical skills. Before leaving, he was handed lyrics from another unlikely applicant, a 17 year old chicken farmer named Bernie toppin. That chance encounter sparked one of the greatest songwriting partnerships in music history, which would go on to sell hundreds of millions of albums and produce countless hits. Elton collaborated with Kiki Dee for a duet. Don't go breaking my heart. 1976 Dave Anthony 1:02:13 incredibly, it was only his first number one single in the UK, topping the chart for six weeks in mid 1976 it became his sixth number one single in the United States, topping the Billboard Hot 100 for four weeks. And in January 2024 Elton John stood on a stage holding an Emmy for his farewell Dodger Stadium concert film. With that, he joined the rarest of entertainment, royalty, the EGOT club, Grammy Oscar, Tony and now Emmy Elton became the 19th person in history to pull off the Grand Slam of Show business. Elton, John was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1994 by Axl. Rose of Guns N Roses. Rod Stewart, Bob Marley, the Grateful Dead. Dwayne Eddy, John Lennon, the band and the animals were also added that night in our story of Elton, John episode, Jillian Garr mentioned Benny and the Jets. That song was released as a single in 1974 and became a true crossover hit for Elton, its mix of glam rock, swagger and soul grooves top both the pop and R B charts. I Dave Anthony 1:03:30 and then in 1975 Elton made history as the first white artist to perform on Soul Train, breaking cultural barriers and cementing the song's place as a landmark of crossover success. Here's a fun Elton John story at a party with Simon and Garfunkel and Bob Dylan. They played charades. Dylan, the greatest lyricist alive, was hopeless with syllables and rhymes. A tipsy Elton got so frustrated he started tossing oranges at him. The next morning, Elton's artistic director Tony King phoned him and said, Do you remember throwing oranges last night at Bob Dylan? A hungover Elton just ground. Oh God. In our episode, we spoke with guest Gillian Carr about Elton's remarkable versatility. This was demonstrated in 1994 Elton partnered with Tim Rice on the Lion King for songs like Circle of Life and can you feel the love tonight. The film roared past a billion dollars in revenue. The soundtrack sold over 10 million copies, and Elton's award winning music cemented his tale as a cultural landmark. Tinydancer. The song from Elton John's 1971 album madman across the water was written during Bernie toppins first visit to the US in 1970 it was inspired by his girlfriend, Maxine bibulum, who later became his wife. She was a ballerina as a child. He hence a Tiny Dancer, and while touring with the band, she would repair their clothing, throwing patches on Elton's jackets and jeans. So she was also the seamstress for the band, as the lyrics say, and she did eventually marry a music man, Tiny Dancer found renewed fame in Cameron Crowe's 2000 movie, almost famous, where it's sing along bus scene perfectly captured the emotional power of the song. Thanks for making garage the stadiums one of the top 5% of podcasts in the world. We'd love for you to follow our shows on your favorite podcast platform so you can be alerted when our next episode drops. Follow us for some great music history content posted on our social channels, Instagram, X Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. Our YouTube channel has additional bonus coverage from our interviews. Visit us at garage the stadiums for more bonus content on all the bands featured and links to great downloadable playlists on Apple and Spotify. Special thanks to today's guest, Julian Garr, author of Elton John Captain Fantastic on the yellow brick road. Thanks to our producers, Amina fauber and Connor Sampson, our program director Scott Campbell, Creative Director Chad Raymond and video director Nigel Campbell, you've been listening to garage to stadiums. I'm Dave Anthony, see you next time for another garage to stadium, story, Unknown Speaker 1:06:26 another blast furnace, labs, production, you.