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Liz Hirsh Naftali · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York, and
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you're listening to In These Times,
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Abigail Mor Idan was three years old when Hamas terrorists forced their way into her
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home in Za and after her mother and father were both killed in front of her and her
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two siblings, Abigail fled covered in their blood and ran to a neighbor's house.
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But the terrorists caught up with her and took her and her neighbor's family into
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Gaza, they remained hostages for 51 days.
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Joining me today is Abigail's great aunt Liz Hirsh Naftali, who fought
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with everything she had for her great niece traveling the world,
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meeting with presidents and prime ministers, and who kept fighting.
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Hannu was still fighting.
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Even now that Abigail and all the hostages who were held in Gaza have come home.
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Liz Hirsh Naftali, welcome to in these Times.
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Thank you for having me.
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Uh, what a tremendous book you wrote.
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I'm holding it up here for those who are watching us
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online, all about, uh, Abigail.
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I had a special affection for Abigail, as so many other people did around the world.
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My daughter's name is Abigail.
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So of course, you know, we kind of see ourselves in other people's
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distress, and that for me was, uh, especially, uh, poignant and very deep.
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we get into so many of the issues that you raised, really critical
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issues, is Abigail doing now?
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She's doing for what we expect.
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A 6-year-old.
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She does well.
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She's in school, she has friends, she plays, she's smart.
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Um, she can dance, she can sing.
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She's really a delightful, beautiful child.
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And the thing that is very clear.
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Is that amongst all that which we would want for all of our children is a
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child who was traumatized and who does still have trauma from witnessing her
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parents' murder on October 7th, and then being taken as a hostage for 51 days.
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But if you saw her tomorrow and you saw her playing with her friends, you'd
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say, she's a beautiful little girl and she is a beautiful little girl.
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We just know what she's carrying in her, which is very heavy.
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You know, I, I read your book and all of these emotions that I had
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for, uh, over two years, thank God all the hostages are back, the
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living and the deceased, which is.
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Since you wrote your book.
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So all of our prayers came true in that respect, at least.
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Uh, but all of the emotions as I was reading your book,
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they all flooded back to me.
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The, the, the tears I found myself weeping in passages of your book,
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the, the anger, even the rage at the.
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Lack of recognition of Jewish humanity on the part of so many people is just
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so important to, to read your book now, when issue is resolved, uh, so
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that we never forget what we actually went through and what we experienced,
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what we felt during, uh, those times.
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Could you give us a, from your perspective?
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Abigail went through as a 3-year-old on that day, on October 7th.
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Yes, and I'll first say thank you because I believe when I wrote
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this book, it was, you know, quite early on and we still had hostages.
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But what I wanted to do is I wanted to make sure that we were, um,
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telling the truth of what happened to Abigail and so many on October
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7th, and I wanted to be out there.
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And now that it's been 850 days, I want people to read this and read
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other books, but just to keep.
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The stories going and your emotions, because what happened
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to Abigail on that day, and I still cry, is just so horrendous.
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The fact that she and her brother and sister, a three, a six, and a 9-year-old
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woke up to sirens and their mother putting them, locking them, trying to lock them in
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a safe room, and terrorists coming in at six 30 in the morning and murdering this
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beautiful 38-year-old woman, my niece, Madar in front of these three children.
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That was the first thing that Abigail saw on October 7th.
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Then they ran outside and their father who, who was a photojournalist and had
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gone out many times to take pictures of missiles flying into Israel from
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Gaza, from the south as they lived along the border, had gone out.
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But he realized it was a terror attack and he came back and he picks up Abigail
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and the kids and they're running.
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They've just seen their mother murdered and he is gunned down and murdered,
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and Abigail is crushed under his body.
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The two older kids, six and nine, older, six and nine years old, lock themselves
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run home and lock themselves in a closet.
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And so when you ask what she experienced that day, a three-year-old saw her
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mother murdered and then was in her father's arms as he was murdered.
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So all three of them ran out and to, to find their father.
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After they witnessed their mother was murdered, they
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Yes.
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of the house.
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Yes, and he was running back because he realized what was happening.
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It wasn't a, what we call a normal missile attack, which happened in Israel
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quite often before October 7th, but he realized there was a terror attack.
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He actually captured on his camera photos of.
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Not only the people that were coming in by land, but paragliders coming in.
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And he worked for a, a new sur uh, news company called Ynet, which provides
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information for all the country.
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So he was going to do his job, which was to take photos and send
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it to the rest of the country.
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And so all three kids go out.
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They find their father who's running back he, he, he, he realizes what's happening
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and he grabs the youngest daughter, Abigail, in his arms, and they're running
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back, presumably they're running to home, I guess, he's, he's shot and killed and
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along with Abigail and the two older siblings.
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See this?
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And they assume not only that both their parents are dead, that
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their father is dead, but also their younger sister is dead.
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And then what happens?
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Well, let, let me just say that Michael and Amalia.
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They end up in a closet in their home for 14 hours alone.
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They are the voice, they're, they're the ones that tell us what happened
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that morning, and they are speaking with a social worker for about 12 hours.
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This beautiful woman named Tamar Schlesinger gets on the phone through
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a group called United Huah and is talking to these two children on
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the line for 12 of the 14 hours.
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At that point, all we understood was that Abigail and her parents had been murdered.
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But what we learned a few days later when this kibbutz was actually cleared,
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and there is a kibbutz with about 700 people on it that day, everyone
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hiding in their safe room and over 300 terrorists coming into this kibbutz to
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murder and to kidnap and to destroy.
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So by the time Army people came and by the time the IDF officially
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came, because in the beginning only reservists were coming to help to
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defend these people, nobody else came.
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But by the time the I IDEA F finally comes and they're starting to have a big
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battle and people are dying and people are being killed, it takes actually
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three or four days for them to clear the kibbutz called Kza, and when they
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do, they don't find Abigail anywhere.
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So it was at that moment with all of the terror and all of the horn, all the
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crazy, everything that was going on.
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It was only a few days later when Abigail was nowhere to be found that we
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started to think that she had been taken as a hostage, that she had survived.
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And then we started putting the pieces together and we did
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learn that Abigail had survived.
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And at that moment.
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Was something for us to hope for that amongst everything her
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parents murdered and everything.
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That was so tragic that day that she, she was a hostage, but we could get her back.
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So it was, it was a silver lining of hope that.
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After what, three or four days where you everyone assumed she had been murdered?
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That since she wasn't found there was the that, that that became
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apparent that maybe she was alive and maybe she was taking hostage.
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Exactly, and what we then started to put together was that she had
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actually arrived to a home and, and we.
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Know that she arrived to a home and was brought in, and that house was then
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taken over by terrorists a few hours later, and they were taken into Gaza.
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So you write the, the neighbor's house.
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They run into a neighbor's house.
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The neighbor, the the father.
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In the neighbor's house was part of the security apparatus of the kibbutz.
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He was out fighting and eventually he was wounded and the mother ends up with her
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three kids and Abigail Under her care.
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Yeah, and they're marched off the kibbutz before noon that day and taken into class.
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So you describe that when they get to Gaza, the streets of Za erupted with.
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In ecstasy, really an exhilaration.
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you, could you, describe that a little more in detail and give
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us your feelings of still to this day, you know, two and a half years
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later, what you feel about that?
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Well, they, they were taken in the car in this woman Hagar's car.
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Brought into Gaza and that morning, Hamas broke in over 60 places and made holes.
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And so they took them in Hagar's car through one of those holes and
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through the dirt path fields into Gaza.
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And when they got into Gaza City, they were trying to, the terrorists
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were trying to show off that they had actually captured this child.
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The young older daughter who was 10 of Hagar and they were shoving her outside
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and trying to show the people that they had accomplished what they had
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set out to do, which was to capture a Jewish child and to show this beautiful
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little girl off as a, as a, as a win.
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And that for me was just crushing.
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Now, I also, at the same time.
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Understand that Hama organization that has terrorized the people living in
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Gaza as well, their own people, so I, I just, again, it's not a political
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statement, but it's just a reminder that while they were doing this to a
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Jewish child, they have endangered and they have killed, and they have done
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horrible things to the own Palestinian children that are in in Gaza as well.
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I imagine believe that the next phase in the rehabilitation of Gaza can't happen.
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Less until Hamas is deprived of its governing authority.
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Is that right?
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That's how I believe.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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That's how most of us, uh, believe.
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what happens to this family, Hagar, her three kids and her neighbor's, daughter,
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Abigail, what happens to them on the first day and throughout the 51 days?
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I think you said where they were captive, they weren't held, there was never a
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point where they were held underground.
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Is that right?
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No, they were never underground.
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They were in buildings and on October 27th, there was ground forces, but
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within a few days there were bombs being dropped by IDF into Gaza City.
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So while they were not underground, they were in buildings.
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And I write about it that every night.
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The kids could barely go to sleep because the bombs were so loud
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and the buildings were so rickety.
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And there was one time when a building got, um, destroyed and literally
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the space that, um, Hagar and these four children were in was destroyed.
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And then they had to be moved to another place.
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But just in terms of like what a day was like for them, they barely had any food.
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Usually it was like a piece of Peter Bread and some water, and it was.
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Hagar, this beautiful woman with her three kids and Abigail begging for food.
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There was no hygiene.
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They, they had to ask for toilet paper.
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They had one toothbrush per for everybody.
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I mean, it was just, everything was horrific.
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And then they were in a dark room silenced, and she was with four
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children under the age of 10.
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Two little ones, three and four, and they were silenced.
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And that takes, you asked me in the beginning how Abigail is,
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she's a child with lots of energy and exuberance and beauty, and
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for 51 days she had to be silent.
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And 51 days after seeing her parents killed and knowing that
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they were killed, silenced.
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Where they, I think you, you, you wrote that they were moved, I think
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at least twice place to place.
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The first place they were at was, it was just a regular home.
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It was, it was a person's apartment and he was a Hamas
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member and he charged his wife.
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With the responsibility of looking over these four Israelis
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who had come into their home and they were being held hostage.
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They were in a home of Hamas family.
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The father was a Hamas, uh, member, his wife.
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Was there, their kids were there, and while they were all in the living
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room and in the house, living life, they had segregated one room where
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they closed out all the windows, made it dark, and just left them in
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a, in squalor, dirty and disgusting.
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All of this was pre-planned, right?
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This was part of the Hama strategy that they had been.
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Working on for presumably for years.
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And they knew, they knew that where they were gonna take the hostages and these
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holders were prepared to hold them.
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I think so look, again, the planning, I'm gonna just jump to
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the thing for me as we speak here is that we need an investigation, an
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independent investigation that will look at what happened before October
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7th, so that we will understand.
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What was missed by intelligence, by the army, by the government, by
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so many in this incredible country, Israel, that missed all the signs
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of this incredible, horrific attack.
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We need an investigation to know why nobody came to.
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To rescue any of these people.
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Six 30 in the morning, the terrorists got there.
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It was hours before anybody was able to come and help them to save them, to
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even start to fight off the terrorists.
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Few thousand of them all along the border had made it into Israel.
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How is that?
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So when you ask me like where my frustration or where, you know, I
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wanna know what happened and then I wanna know why no one was there
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to defend my niece and her husband.
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This young couple with three beautiful children.
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And why no one was there that when they were murdered there was no
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one to save their three children.
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And so I look at it and I think like you can say that it was planned on
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their side, but we don't know enough.
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What we need to do is investigate it.
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So I am a huge advocate, and I know so many in Israel and so many around the
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world who love Israel and do not wanna see anything happen bad to Israel.
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Ever again understand that we need this investigation that is not political
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and is not, um, biased, but is one to understand, so this never happens again.
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You've met many times with Israeli officials and with American officials.
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You write that you met with Prime Minister, uh, Netanyahu.
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Is it right to assume that this issue was raised in any of the discussions
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and whether or not it was raised?
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Why do you think there was No, to this day, there's been no official
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national bipartisan or nonpartisan commission of investigation.
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I don't think there's been an investigation so far because I don't
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think that the people in leadership are really willing to have a deep, honest
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look at their failures On October 7th.
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Now that the, the hostage issue is, uh, resolved.
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Looking back at the arguments of, uh, the Israeli government, do
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you think that there was at least some logic in their prioritization
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of the defeat of Hamas over.
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The return of the hostages.
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think everybody would and assume that if your family member has taken hostage,
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that's all you really care about.
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It's not your job to worry about grand historical, international
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diplomacy and military affairs.
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But now looking back, do you think there was some merit in terms of
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the way the government wanted to pursue the last two and a half years?
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Look, I'm not a policy expert.
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I'm not a diplomat, but I know there was a deal on the table that Prime Minister
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Nya and, and the people closest to him rejected early on to release the hostages.
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'cause Hamas would still be in there and we could not have gone in and
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defended what happened to on October 7th.
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And that's why we need an investigation.
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'cause that is part of what we need to learn, is why there wasn't a deal.
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But look, I also know that when Abigail, the deal for the women and children
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at the end of November was presented.
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There are people in the government in the cabinet that voted against
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a release of women and children.
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If it were not for President Biden, Abigail, and 105 women and children
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would not have been released.
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If it were not for President Trump, the remaining hostages alive and
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deceased would not have been released.
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It is because of the US government and the pressure and the Qataris
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mediating from the beginning to the end is why the hostages were released.
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It was never because the Prime Minister Netanyahu deciding that that
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was his priority or you know, his meaning his government's priority.
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And look, we met, and I write about it in July of 2024.
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With President Biden, with Prime Minister Netanyahu at the White House.
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We were invited by President Biden, and it was him and his team, and it was
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a meeting of American hostage family.
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So these were people that had somebody that was American
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and it was a small group.
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And the reason I set this up is because it was.
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It was so emotional, and Aveva Siegel was there and, and she was
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crying and others were crying.
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And at one point, I, I don't know, something inside of me, I rose up and
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I, not physically, but inside, and I looked at Prime Minister Netanyahu and
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at President Biden and, and I said, enough, these people are suffering.
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Abigail came home, but these people are suffering every day.
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I don't know what it feels like.
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I know what it felt like for 51 days to fight for my loved one.
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I don't know what it feels like.
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To be doing this almost a year later, every day.
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Keep in mind, every day you wake up and you're just, what more can I do?
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When you wake up and you then at the end of the day, you're
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like, I didn't do enough.
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There's still a hostage, and I could just feel the room.
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And I looked at President Biden and I looked at Prime Minister Nya and
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I said, what are you going to do?
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And President Biden said, I'm gonna do everything for the rapid
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release of all the hostages.
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You have my commitment, and I looked at Prime Minister Netanyahu and
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he said the same as the president.
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And I said, okay, well then why aren't we getting them done?
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Well, we have a deal that's very close.
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And then when Prime Minister Netanyahu got back to Israel, there
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was no deal he was gonna sign.
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I don't know what happened from the time he left the White House.
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He went to Florida.
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He went to Israel.
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He, he continued to do the work of getting rid of Hamas and its leaders, but he
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didn't do a deal and there was a deal.
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No matter what anyone says right now, I know there was a deal, but what I
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also know was that within a month, Hirsch, Goldberg, Poland, Carmel got
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IMI and three other beautiful young men.
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These beautiful six young people, they were executed by Hamas.
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And had that deal gone through, they would've been home.
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They would be alive.
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You write, uh, throughout the book that and throughout the two and a
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quarter year ordeal the perspective.
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Of the American officials was much more empathetic and sympathetic
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than what the families experienced from Israeli public officials.
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Why do you think that's the case?
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Look, I'm an American.
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I'm a proud American.
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I realize that I'm very fortunate to be in this country with all of its craziness.
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I'm very blessed to be an American on October 7th and the weeks after
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and the months after, what I saw was that we had a US government.
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We had President Biden and his team working to bring home the hostages
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for the first year and a few months, but we had Democrats and Republicans
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on the left and on the right wanting to help bring home these hostages.
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It was.
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Incredible.
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So it wasn't a matter of what party you were in or what religion you were in,
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they wanted to come together to try to bring home the hostages and the fighting.
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And by the way, if you ask them Yes, and to support the people living
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in Gaza, to not be in a war zone.
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And I think that the reason they were there is because they actually cared.
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It was a humanitarian crisis.
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It was an attack on Israel, an ally of a US in, in the Middle East,
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and they understood the cruelty.
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The butchery that took place in Israel that day.
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Um, and so when you ask the question, then why not the Israeli government?
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I'm not an Israeli.
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I love Israel.
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I've spent a lot of time in Israel.
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I consider it like a home.
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I'm not an Israeli.
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I've never voted, but I just call it a lack of leadership.
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It's gotta be a lack of failure of leadership, not to meet with hostage
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families, not to consistently be there as a government for your people, for a
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massacre that took place on your land.
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Many would argue that you were not protecting.
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So I, I don't understand how that is, but I know in our family's case that
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nobody ever reached out to us from the Israeli Knesset, from the Netanyahu
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team and said, how can we help you?
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How is Abigail nobody?
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But I do know that President Biden on the release of Abigail called
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myself and my brother-in-law.
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As the car that she was in, the, the van that she was in crossed into
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Israeli territory with just the words.
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She's back in Israel, she's safe.
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And I've seen President Trump with hostage families that came
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out, um, after January 20th, 2025 when he, Dawn Alexander came out.
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And when these hostages came out in October, reaching out and being there and
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Steve Whitcoff and, and, and being there.
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If we just didn't see that with the Prime Minister and with the
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leaders in the cabinet of Israel.
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Could you take us back to the day that, uh, Abigail and others were released?
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How much notice did you get in advance and how did you hear the
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news, and how did you see her release?
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So first, Abigail was not released on the first day, and Abigail was
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not released on the second day.
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The way it worked was that there was a list that would come out, Hamas
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would prepare and that it would be sent to Israel and to America, and
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those families would be advised, your loved one, your child, or your a
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woman or a child is gonna be released.
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And on the first night before the actual release, we got a call
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saying that she wasn't on the list.
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And on that first day, we saw women and children.
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And while it wasn't Abigail, I was like, thank God.
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Thank Joe Biden, thank Qataris, thank the Jews and the people around the world
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pushing for the release of these hostages.
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This first group is back, and then the second day, that same night for
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the second day, there was a list and Abigail wasn't on that list.
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And again, my heart fell for myself and for our family and for my sister-in-law
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whose grandchild was sitting there as a hostage, but beautiful women
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and children came out on day two.
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Same thing.
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That night we waited and there was a delay, and around two
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in the morning is real time.
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There was a notification that Abigail was on that list.
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And so then we had to wait the whole day to see the van and see everything.
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And that day in the group that got released, there was a woman who
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was ill, so they had to take a side tour and drop her off at a hospital.
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I mean, there was a whole thing.
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Until, and even with President Biden calling us until I saw, and
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we had screens going in my apartment in New York, Israeli News, CNN.
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And until I saw Abigail in my niece Lauren's arms and in Shlomi her
25:09
grandmother's arms, I couldn't believe it.
25:12
I wouldn't believe it.
25:14
And it was like at that moment that I could just cry and just let it all go.
25:18
'cause you know, to get it done, I just felt like you have to be stoic.
25:22
You gotta keep going.
25:23
And it was at that moment that I could just say, okay.
25:26
Thankfully Abigail is back with our family.
25:29
Her parents are gone.
25:30
Her home is destroyed, but she's safe in our arms.
25:35
Did all five of them come out together?
25:38
Yes.
25:39
So in the end, what I started to see was like they were letting out
25:42
groups based on where they came from.
25:45
So they were like different kibbutz, different communities.
25:48
And on that third day was kids and women from Kibbutz Za, where Abigail was taken.
25:54
So when she was released, she was with Hagar and her three children,
25:58
and she was with, for example, Aviva Siegel, who was from her kibbutz.
26:03
Um, so it was that group on the third day that came from Za.
26:09
And I remember seeing the famous picture of, uh, president Biden
26:12
holding, uh, Abigail in, in his arms.
26:16
How, how much later did that happen and what was the background to that?
26:21
So that happened in April of 2024.
26:25
And.
26:26
After she was released, I was told if, you know, if the family's
26:30
ever in Washington, DC like the president would love to meet her.
26:34
And we were going to Washington, DC and the ki family was coming to
26:38
New York to be, um, in the holidays for Pesach after October 7th.
26:43
And keep in mind, this is a family that just was just traumatized.
26:47
I mean, now there are six kids, so Abigail's released.
26:52
Michael and Molly and Abigail are adopted by my niece Lauren and her
26:55
husband and their three children.
26:57
It's a beautiful thing, but at this point, everybody was just very traumatized and
27:03
basically just working on how do you just get up each morning and start your day?
27:08
And so one of the things that we arranged was to go to the White
27:10
House and meet President Biden, and what I understood was that we were
27:15
just gonna have a little visit.
27:17
Then they were gonna take a few photos and then we were going to, you know, have
27:20
a tour of the White House and go home.
27:22
We ended up spending about an hour and a half with President
27:25
Biden, and he was alone.
27:26
He didn't have assistants, he didn't have people there.
27:29
And he takes the kids into his office and he shows them where he works and
27:33
he shows them the pictures on the wall of other kids that had drawn art and
27:37
that he was gonna put their art up.
27:39
And then he.
27:40
I met with Lauren and Zli, my niece and nephew, to talk about their
27:43
loss and what they had to go through and what they were going through.
27:47
And then he went outside and he showed us where the kids could play.
27:49
And I think that one of the things that I took away from that was,
27:53
one, he is an a man of empathy and he really truly cared about.
27:57
Not only Abigail, but all the hostages.
27:59
And he said as we left that day, I'm gonna keep doing everything I can until
28:03
all the hostages are gonna come home.
28:05
This is the work I am committed to.
28:06
And unfortunately, he did not finish that because he couldn't.
28:10
But until the last moment, he did try to do that work and he tried to pass
28:14
it on to the Trump administration so that the work would continue.
28:18
But one of the things that I'll just end on is I thought about like Abigail and
28:22
the kids running around in the Oval Office and in the White House and their freedom.
28:27
I thought, this is democracy.
28:30
This is what we are supposed to be about children that are running around free.
28:34
And then I thought about what Abigail went through as a hostage in the dark,
28:38
silenced, dirty, starving, no hygiene.
28:43
And I thought to myself like.
28:45
We've gotta do better for children.
28:47
We've gotta do better for all of our children, and that that
28:51
picture can never happen again.
28:53
And we as humans can never be okay with it.
28:56
Now, not everybody can run through the White House, I get that.
28:59
But it should be that idea of children are free, children are protected, children
29:03
are loved, and children are cared for.
29:05
And on that day, that's what I felt was the beau most beautiful part, was
29:10
that Abigail was able to be a child.
29:14
How are Mikhail and Amalia doing?
29:17
Uh, they too went through incredibly traumatic experiences.
29:23
Look, they are 11 and eight.
29:25
Michael loves soccer, football.
29:28
We don't call it soccer in Israel, we call it football.
29:30
And he's a really good player and I was there recently and I
29:33
got to watch him play a game.
29:35
He got a header goal.
29:36
He's doing okay.
29:37
He's really like passionate about playing sports and playing soccer,
29:42
but he's also just a good boy.
29:44
He goes to school and he has good friends and he's, he's just,
29:49
thank God what he went through.
29:51
He basically was on the phone with this woman all day long and knowing
29:56
that his mother's body was laying there and that he had to make sure that he
30:01
and his sister who was two and a half years younger were gonna be okay.
30:05
He's nine years old.
30:07
This is what he experienced.
30:09
And Amalia, who at the time was six, is in this and they're silenced
30:14
because there are terrorists coming in and outta their house.
30:16
So when you ask how are they doing?
30:18
I need people to understand that is how two children spent 14 hours
30:22
and they weren't in a safe room.
30:23
They were literally in a cupboard, like in a on top of clothes, just
30:27
lying there, waiting to be saved.
30:31
So when I tell you he's running around playing soccer and doing
30:34
well and and loving the sport and being very good player and finding
30:38
passion, it is just hugely emotional.
30:41
And I'll tell you, when he scored that header and everyone's screaming,
30:44
Meha Michael, I was like, I started bawling because I understood
30:50
where and what this moment meant.
30:52
It isn't a normal kid who scores a goal and Amalia is a
30:57
beautiful 8-year-old and she is.
31:00
Got friends and she's just well in school and she does her homework
31:03
and, and these kids are just loved.
31:06
And that is what we are so blessed that after all the tragedy, they have so
31:10
much love at this point in their lives.
31:14
Liz, you write about, uh, the.
31:16
The numerous, uh, meetings you had with American officials, and what
31:22
particularly struck me was, uh, write about your meetings with some of the
31:30
progressive political representatives, members of Congress, and you were
31:35
disappointed in some of those meetings.
31:38
Could you describe that?
31:40
I will say on October 6th, I went to bed.
31:43
I'd been a Democrat for my whole life and I supported Democratic candidates
31:47
and I had this idealistic view and I believed that I was doing incredible work.
31:52
Then on October 7th, I still believed I had done incredible work, but I woke
31:56
up and I was like, my family's in need.
31:59
And I put away in my head, even before being a hostage advocate, the idea of
32:03
Democrat or Republican, I'm an American.
32:05
I am an American and I'm gonna do what I can to help support my family and
32:09
the people who suffered on October 7th.
32:12
And then about a week and a half later, I find myself on Capitol Hill talking to
32:16
Democrats and Republicans, men and women.
32:18
And what I learned was that I could talk to anyone if I talked about the
32:23
heart and humanity of this moment, what happened to my family on October
32:27
7th, that terrorists with one goal.
32:31
Overriding goal to murder my family and others living in Israel, Jews and
32:35
non-Jews was what happened on October 7th, and I spoke to people on the far left
32:40
and people on the far right, but there was one story with, um, a congresswoman
32:45
who, um, and I'm not gonna say the name.
32:47
I'm just gonna say a congresswoman who I had, um, met with her staff on Thursday
32:52
and I was leaving for the weekend.
32:53
They leave for the weekend, the congress folks, and I was coming
32:56
back Tuesday and she wanted to meet with me and I said, great.
33:00
But over the weekend she tweeted from the river to the sea and that said
33:05
to me that she wasn't really serious.
33:07
Wanting to understand what happened to my family, and I just
33:11
wanted to have a human story.
33:13
I wasn't there to say one side was correct or one side was wrong.
33:16
I was literally wanting to share about my family, get Abigail
33:20
back, get the hostages back.
33:22
And so I like to focus on, even though I understand the nature of your question,
33:26
my focus has always been on how do we keep Democrats, republicans together?
33:31
For the hostages and thankfully now they're back.
33:33
And look, I really truly believe that if it were not for America and Joe Biden
33:37
and the mediation of the Qatari, that Abigail May not have come out of Gaza.
33:42
We saw what happened when there was no negotiating and we saw what happened when
33:46
there was left up to Hamas and Israel leadership, choosing not to make a deal.
33:51
You've been a Democratic activist.
33:54
I think your whole adult life, does it worry you, of all, is that true?
33:58
Are they gaining strength?
33:59
Are they on the ascendancy in the Democratic party?
34:03
And whether they are or not, are you worried about the future or the,
34:07
the bipartisan support for Israel?
34:10
We have to keep bipartisan support for Israel, and we have
34:13
to acknowledge that there's people on the far left and the far right.
34:17
Of our country and our government that don't want to support Israel.
34:22
In the same ways as that, I think that Israel should be supported by a
34:25
bipartisan, um, United States government.
34:28
I think there's a problem in America with not knowing really the truth of why
34:32
Israel exists, because it's the, it's the native land of the Jewish people for
34:39
thousands of years, and I'm, I'm tired of being in a place where I have to
34:43
defend that Israel has a right to exist.
34:46
We don't question the rights of France to exist based on what
34:49
we like or don't like about.
34:50
The leader that day or that country that day.
34:52
We don't question if Qatar has a right to exist or Indonesia has a
34:56
right to exist, or Japan has a right to exist, or I could keep going.
35:00
So I think that what we need to do is change our narrative, which is says Israel
35:04
is a nation and it is a democratic nation.
35:06
Yeah.
35:07
It's imperfect.
35:08
So is America.
35:09
And I think that where we've come and, and I am probably will get a lot of
35:12
hate texts for this one, but we can love Israel but not support necessarily
35:17
where the government is going.
35:19
We can love Israel, which I do, and I've lived there and I've.
35:23
I give so much and I think it's the most incredible place and my family is, and not
35:27
to be able to say there are some faults or not to say, we need to understand
35:31
what happened on October 7th, because what we've become now, and this is where
35:35
I find this much more of an interesting question, is why is it that when you
35:39
criticize Israel, the government of Israel, you're automatically pushed out.
35:46
You're automatically like anti, because for me, like I can say that I, and I've
35:50
said it to you and I'll say it like I don't think the Israeli leadership did
35:53
enough to bring home Abigail, but the Israeli people, the Nation of Israel,
35:58
what those people did, showing up every weekend at Hostage Square and fighting
36:02
and, and doing everything amidst all the horror to bring home the hostages.
36:08
Israel is one of the most special, most beautiful places.
36:11
Yes.
36:11
Geography wise, but humans.
36:13
The, the concept of Jews, Tik, and, you know, that does not mean tikun.
36:21
It doesn't mean we just take care of Jews.
36:23
We take care of the world.
36:25
I am so proud.
36:26
I'm a Jewish person.
36:27
I am so proud to be, um, a, a supporter of the state of Israel.
36:34
But in that same breath.
36:36
We can also look and say that there's things that we need to work on.
36:40
There are things that we need to see for Israel, so I will not let a democratic
36:44
group or Republican group throw out Israel based on whatever their agenda is.
36:49
I am gonna keep talking to both sides, and I do this work, which is how do we
36:52
talk about the beauty of the nation of Israel and the importance of this nation
36:57
that's not going anywhere, and that is just gonna keep getting stronger.
37:00
My last question to you, Liz, is um, have you learned something you
37:05
didn't know about human nature?
37:07
Or something about human nature that was strengthened in you as a result
37:10
of the last two and a quarter years.
37:12
I have, I've learned a lot.
37:14
I grew up in a family where you helped people, whether it was the Federation
37:17
or Jewish Family Service or, um, different organizations that were
37:21
feeding people in your communities.
37:23
And on October 7th, I also woke up in another role, which was, I need help.
37:28
I. And I wasn't good at that because I was good at giving help.
37:32
And so I didn't understand what it meant to need help, but this hostage
37:37
fighting for my loved ones and staying in it even after Abigail was released.
37:41
And I also, I always say this, which is amidst all the antisemitism that you have
37:47
been referencing, the Jewish people stood together with our allies, many in the
37:51
Christian world and many in the Muslim world, and brought back 250 hostages.
37:57
And let me tell you, that is something to be a part of that gives you an
38:00
understanding of if we can work together, we can accomplish a lot.
38:06
And so those people that tore down the picture of Abigail back
38:09
in October and November of 2023 and many others, they didn't win.
38:15
We won because we stayed together and we brought back Abigail and these hostages.
38:21
What we didn't do was that we didn't do it quick enough and we didn't save
38:25
enough lives, but we never gave up.
38:27
And my message, and this is what I've learned to do, is to remind
38:31
us all that we can be leaders.
38:32
You may not wake up tomorrow and have your great niece as a hostage or your
38:37
niece and her husband murdered in Israel.
38:40
We all wake up some days and we feel like, oh my God, what can we do to
38:43
fix something and we all can do it?
38:46
So as a long way of answering your question, which is I think what
38:49
I understood was that I could do more than just helping others.
38:53
That I really could be more in this fight to do good in the world.
38:57
And even with the hostages home, I hope I continue to do good in the world and make
39:01
a difference because I look at Abigail and Michael and Amalia and the the other
39:05
kids, Daniella and Zohar and Embar, and we can't leave them in this world.
39:10
It's all up to us.
39:10
'cause we all have our kids and we all have our grandkids.
39:13
And so it's that keeping in the fight, but it's working together.
39:17
Liz Hurst.
39:18
Tali, thank you very much, uh, for what you've done, what you're
39:22
doing now, what you will do.
39:24
It's an honor to speak with you and so pleased that the family is recovering
39:31
and I hope that, um, you live a long and fruitful and contributing life
39:37
as well, both to the Jewish people as well as, uh, the world entire.
39:40
So thank you very much good luck
39:51
listening to Liz and reading her book, brought back all the memories and emotions
39:54
of these past 27 months, the sadness, the despondency, the pain, the grief, the
40:00
helplessness, the anger that still burns inside of me at the indescribable savagery
40:06
that Hamas perpetrated on October 7th.
40:09
They murdered over 1200 people on that day of infamy.
40:13
251 were taken hostage.
40:17
of them murdered in captivity.
40:19
Hama stole grandparents peace activists, Holocaust survivors and children.
40:24
They held 3-year-old Abigail Hostage for 51 days.
40:28
They murdered her parents in front of her and her two siblings.
40:31
The youngest hostage was nine month old.
40:33
Fear BBAs, with his 4-year-old brother, Arielle and their mother Sheri.
40:39
The boys were strangled to death in captivity, and Sheri too
40:43
was murdered by her captors.
40:46
Sheri's parents were murdered on October 7th, their father Jarden was
40:50
kidnapped and eventually released after nearly 500 days in captivity.
40:55
The family that he built with Sheri erased from the face of the earth, and I still
41:01
feel betrayed by those who we thought were our ies in the struggle for human decency.
41:07
Those who we thought believed like we did in international law, basic human rights,
41:12
the protection of women and children, and the defense of liberal Western values,
41:18
their hatred of Israel and their blind support for Hamas lengthened the war
41:23
and brought unnecessary immeasurable suffering to the Palestinians of Gaza.
41:28
Do those who proclaimed October 7th as a glorious day of resistance
41:32
even care about the goss?
41:35
Or was all this, some kind of morality play using Palestinian
41:38
civilians as human shields for their grandiose, intersectional theories.
41:43
How in God's name can this barbarism be justified?
41:47
On one of my visits to Israel, I met with an Israeli mental health expert emphasized
41:53
recovery from trauma requires that trauma to be empathetically recognized by others.
42:00
I think this was and remains the most difficult part of recovery for me.
42:05
The refusal to this day those who should know better, or at least I
42:11
assumed had better intentions, who offer no empathy, who betray what they
42:16
said were their foundational values in explaining, justifying, distinguishing,
42:22
or excusing the brutal savagery.
42:26
Jewish history will never be the same.
42:28
We will never go back to what was Israel's defense strategy will
42:33
never be what it was on October 6th.
42:36
The IDF will not allow threats to gather on Israel's borders, and we in the west
42:42
will never return to an unreserved trust in our former allies and partners who so
42:46
betrayed us and their own values, we will be much more wary of their true motives.
42:53
What kind of person tears down the picture of a three-year-old hostage?
42:58
Woe to that person whose soul has so rotted woe to their
43:01
parents who raised them woe to their teachers, who taught them.
43:05
At the same time, I have had moments of enormous uplift as well.
43:11
Millions of good people worldwide refuse to betray their values.
43:15
The number of Israeli heroes emerging from that awful October
43:18
7th day is awe inspiring.
43:21
And there were heroes like Liz, the families of hostages.
43:25
never rested and never ceased advocating on behalf of their loved ones.
43:30
Whether you agreed with the Israeli government's calculus or
43:33
not, the families had only one job to get their loved ones home.
43:38
Their determination and resolve and fortitude in the face of immeasurable
43:42
pain purposely exploited and exacerbated by Hamas and their Western supporters.
43:48
Their heroism will be recorded in the annals of Jewish
43:51
civilization in perpetuity.
43:54
Now is the time for recovery.
43:57
For the first time in 14 years, there are no Israeli hostages in Gaza,
44:01
Israelis and Jews worldwide and all decent human beings can breathe again.
44:06
Despite our pain and disappointment, we must try to rebuild
44:09
alliances that were shattered.
44:12
May Abigail and all the children whose lives were crushed during this long
44:16
war, Israeli and Palestinian find their way back to joy and happiness.
44:23
May they grow up to live long, full and productive lives devoted to humanity,
44:27
empathy and wellbeing of God's children.
44:33
Until next time, this is in these times,
44:36
I.