Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Evil Genius: Serial killer 'Son of Sam' to walk free?

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Evil Genius: Serial killer 'Son of Sam' to walk free? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two and started out the
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Speaker 1: typical Friday night. We drove to a hundred fifty nine street,
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Speaker 1: thirty second Avenue. Hey see, we started making out and
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Speaker 1: like two minutes later, the car exploded. All the you know,
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Speaker 1: the windows blue out of the car. Son of Am.
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Speaker 1: Three words that strike fear and the hearts of everybody
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Speaker 1: that's read a newspaper or gone on the internet in
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Speaker 1: the last twenty years. You know, to be living in
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Speaker 1: a cave or under a rock not to know of
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Speaker 1: the brutal rain of Son of Sam also known as
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Speaker 1: David Berkowitz, a prolific killer. Son of Sam, also known
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Speaker 1: as the forty four caliber killer, a serial killer that
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Speaker 1: we know is guilty of eight separate shooting attacks. It
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Speaker 1: all started in the summer of ninety six, when the
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Speaker 1: crimes were perpetrated with a bulldog revolver, killing six people,
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Speaker 1: wounding nine others, the victims increasing, the body bags piling up,
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Speaker 1: and the son of Sam eludes the biggest police man
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Speaker 1: hunt in the history of the city. He even went
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Speaker 1: so far as to leave letters mocking police and promising
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Speaker 1: more murders. But now, even after a guilty play on
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Speaker 1: multiple charges, is the Son of Sam, one of the
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Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers in US history, set to walk
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Speaker 1: free with a parole hearing I Nancy Grays, this is
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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. First of all,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear in his own words, the
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Speaker 1: son of Sam, in a CBS interview talking about his childhood,
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Speaker 1: boo who And I was about four or five, I
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Speaker 1: learned that I was adopted, and of course I had
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Speaker 1: a lot of questions. You know my dad and mom,
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Speaker 1: you know well meaning told me that my mother died
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Speaker 1: while while giving birth to me. I think now looking
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Speaker 1: back in retrospect, it caused a lot of guilt and
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Speaker 1: conflict within me. No, I didn't understand what what what
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Speaker 1: drove me to be so like self destructive and destructive
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Speaker 1: to always have thoughts of suicide. I was obsessed with
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Speaker 1: with dying because I felt that I needed to be
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Speaker 1: punished for somehow causing my mother's My mother's death, My
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Speaker 1: parents were were a lot of pain and anguish. They
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Speaker 1: tried as best as I could they could. You know,
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Speaker 1: there were times when I seen my parents break down
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Speaker 1: in tears because they saw that was just so so
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Speaker 1: out of it sometimes such a such a problem. And
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Speaker 1: you know, I was just a kid. But at school
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Speaker 1: I got into a lot of trouble, uh it, fights
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Speaker 1: and just disrupt being disruptive in the classroom. My mom
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Speaker 1: had to go there so many times because I was
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Speaker 1: in trouble one way or at the other, and the
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Speaker 1: school officials told her that he really needed to take
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Speaker 1: your your child to a child psychologist. So they made
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Speaker 1: arrangements for me to see a child psychologists, which went
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Speaker 1: on for two years and I would sit there for
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Speaker 1: an hour and deal with her, which I hated. It
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Speaker 1: was torture. Hold on is to moment here We've got
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Speaker 1: Troyce Layton with me high profile l a defense attorney
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Speaker 1: Karen Start, renowned psychologists jointing me out of New York,
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Speaker 1: and private investigator, former cop Vincent Hill. Troyce Layton, there's
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Speaker 1: son of Sam and his own words, and I can
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Speaker 1: only hope the parole board members here that because he
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Speaker 1: is trying to make me feel sorry for him regarding
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Speaker 1: the death of his mom, and I do feel bad
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Speaker 1: about that. But he goes on to detail how he's
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Speaker 1: been a problem, causing trouble ever since he was a
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Speaker 1: kid in school. All right, that that's not helping Troyce Layton.
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Speaker 1: He's being honest and truthful with the parole board. Nancy. Now, look,
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Speaker 1: if we believe in the rule of law, then we
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Speaker 1: have to respect the court's decision, which was to not
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Speaker 1: give him life without the possibility of parole. But he
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Speaker 1: was granted the possibility of parole. So the system is
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Speaker 1: working and he's getting the chance to go before the
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Speaker 1: parole board. Be honest, tell them where he is. He's
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Speaker 1: been in jail, in prison for over thirty years, and
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Speaker 1: it's time to show that he has potentially been rehabilitated.
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Speaker 1: Rehabilitated you know, um the body count and all of
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Speaker 1: the other shootings for people were injured. I'm not even
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Speaker 1: remotely convinced this guy has rehabilitated himself. Karen Start, New
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Speaker 1: York psychologist, renowned mental health care worker. Karen, what did
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Speaker 1: you tell me? He has now renamed himself. He's no
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Speaker 1: longer calling himself the Sun of Sand. He's calling himself
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Speaker 1: the son of Hope, Nancy, because he feels that he
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Speaker 1: represents Hope. That's rewriting history, the son of Hope. Uh,
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Speaker 1: what do you think, Karen Start? You heard Troy Slayton
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Speaker 1: say son of Sam David Berkowitz should get parole. So
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Speaker 1: I I feel like he hasn't really learned anything. He
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Speaker 1: says that he's regretful, and yet if you read interviews
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Speaker 1: with him, he's still blaming the media for exaggerating the
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Speaker 1: crimes and and engaging the public to make it much worse.
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Speaker 1: How could it possibly be worse than it was? He's
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Speaker 1: classic antisocial personality, Nancy. So he has no conscience. I
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Speaker 1: don't see how that could possibly change, even though he's
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Speaker 1: doing these reported um good works while he's in jail
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Speaker 1: and has converted he's a born again Christian. He's you
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Speaker 1: know what, Karen Stark, I appreciate him claiming he's a
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Speaker 1: born again Christian. I really do, Vincent Hill, private an investigator.
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Speaker 1: I recall the first time um I handled a huge
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Speaker 1: arrayment calendar. It was about a hundred and fifty to
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Speaker 1: two hundred newly indicted felons, and they all came to
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Speaker 1: court for arrayment hearing, and they saw I was wearing
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Speaker 1: a cross. Well, the next week all the ones in
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Speaker 1: the jail, which would be about half of those, about
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Speaker 1: fifty guys, came over and they many of them had
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Speaker 1: gotten a hold of yarn and had I guess, knitted
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Speaker 1: huge crosses that they then hung around their necks trying
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Speaker 1: to get me to give them a lighter sentence. So
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Speaker 1: if he's born again Christian, power to him. But that's
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Speaker 1: between him and the Lord. That has nothing to do
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Speaker 1: with him getting out from behind bars. So, Vincent Hill,
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Speaker 1: what do you make of the rehabilitation of the serial killer? Yeah, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many guys found Jesus When
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Speaker 1: I would arrest them and send them away to prison,
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Speaker 1: that is usually the norm. But listen, this guy terrorized
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Speaker 1: a city that was already known for violence. I mean,
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Speaker 1: look at New York in the seventies. It was already
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Speaker 1: known for violence, but he struck terror and fear. And
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Speaker 1: his victims I think he had some mommy shoes because
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Speaker 1: they were women with long, dark hair. And you heard
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Speaker 1: him talk about how his mom died during childbirth, which
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Speaker 1: we found that later not to be true. So that
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Speaker 1: stuff doesn't go away mentally, you know, whether you find Jesus.
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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, this hill, this hill, stop the press
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Speaker 1: is did you just say his mother did not die
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Speaker 1: during childbirth, Nancy. It was found out later that you know,
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Speaker 1: she was seeing this guy who was married. You know,
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Speaker 1: she got pregnant and he's like, listen, you're not gonna
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Speaker 1: keep this baby. You're not gonna give him my name.
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Speaker 1: So I think the the die that childbirth was just alive.
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Speaker 1: Here is David Berkwitz, the son of Sam, talking to
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Speaker 1: CBS about the shootings. I thought I was doing something
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Speaker 1: to appeased the devil. I'm sorry for it, but I
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Speaker 1: really don't want to talk about it. No, I was
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Speaker 1: at this time. I end up serving him, you know,
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Speaker 1: I was s begam. I feel that you're taken over
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Speaker 1: my mind, and I just surrendered to those very dark forces.
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Speaker 1: I regret that with all my heart. But you know,
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Speaker 1: that was like forty years ago, and I understand that
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Speaker 1: it was demonic thing, and you know, I just opened
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Speaker 1: myself up to some very dark forces to come in
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Speaker 1: and can't you know, change that. Look I look at
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Speaker 1: that and disbelief. I can't believe that happened. I look
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Speaker 1: back none. If it makes any sense, it doesn't. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense at all. It was under
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Speaker 1: strong delusions. That's what happens when you come under those powers.
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Speaker 1: You're under of strong delusions you do so, you know,
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Speaker 1: you look back and say, what, what the heck happened?
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Speaker 1: That was just just you know, mental darkness. I was
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Speaker 1: serving Sate. Okay, does it never end with this guy?
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Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, private investigator, former cop. You know that son
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Speaker 1: of Sam admitted at some point, I mean, his defense
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Speaker 1: at the time was that a dog named Harry, who
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Speaker 1: belonged to his neighbor Sam, told him to commit the murders.
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Speaker 1: He later admitted that was a lie. And here he
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Speaker 1: is lying through his teeth, saying that he was serving Satan.
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Speaker 1: He admitted at some point that the whole dog talking
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Speaker 1: to him, the devil talking to him through a dog,
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Speaker 1: was just a hoax. It was just saying anything to
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Speaker 1: try to get off, and he's still running with that
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Speaker 1: after he's admitted it's a lie. I mean, Vincent, why
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Speaker 1: should I believe now he says he's rehabilitated and should
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Speaker 1: get out if he's still lying about the dark dog? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I don't know, Nancy. I mean, my dog ate my homework.
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Speaker 1: I mean, let's be clear. This guy has some serious
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Speaker 1: psychological issues. He's got mother issues, He's got issues of
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Speaker 1: dealing with what he saw is reluctant father figures throughout
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Speaker 1: his life, which is why he picked the victims. And
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Speaker 1: the victims were a couples sitting in cars that reminded
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Speaker 1: him of his childhood and that rejection, and that rejection, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: doesn't go away. You know, this guy never changes. TROYE. Layton,
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Speaker 1: renowned l a defense attorney. He's lying again about the
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Speaker 1: dog and the devil. So why should I believe mena
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Speaker 1: parole hearing because he's been Didn't you just say he's
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Speaker 1: telling the truth, Nancy, He's being host He's not being honest, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: He has been a model prisoner, according to all of
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Speaker 1: the jailer's according to every the chaplains according to everyone
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Speaker 1: at the facilities that he's been at, he has been
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Speaker 1: a model, He's helped other prisoners, he has graduated college,
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Speaker 1: he has done everything that has been asked of him
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Speaker 1: for nearly a lifetime, over three decades. And if we
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Speaker 1: believe in the system when it's most jail systems are
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Speaker 1: called Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, then by all accounts,
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Speaker 1: he appears to be rehabilitated. Well, let me correct you
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Speaker 1: on one thing. I don't think that the jailers are
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Speaker 1: saying anything about how great he's been. I think he
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Speaker 1: is saying that he has been great behind bars. I
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Speaker 1: don't know that that's coming from the warden or anybody else.
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Speaker 1: But Son of Sam, a known serial killer, speaking of
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Speaker 1: all his uh the tales that he spends. Take a
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Speaker 1: listen to Son of Sam and his own words talking
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Speaker 1: about his newly discovered religion. I have strong faith in God.
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Speaker 1: I believe that the Lord is carrying me through this.
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Speaker 1: I think that if it wasn't for for my faith
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Speaker 1: in Christ and my belief, I probably would have given
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Speaker 1: up a long time ago. Have a lot of guilt
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Speaker 1: of what happened, a lot of remorse, and those things
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Speaker 1: are always on my mind, you know, even as I
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Speaker 1: try to remain upbeat and cheerful and positive, you know,
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Speaker 1: it always I know of forget you know, where I
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Speaker 1: came from and what my situation was like some four
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Speaker 1: decades ago, people that were hurt, people that are still
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Speaker 1: in pain, suffering loss because of my criminal actions. And
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Speaker 1: I never forget that that sometimes weighs very heavy on me. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: and uh, it's a it's a pain there that really
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Speaker 1: doesn't go away. But by the grace of God, I'm
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Speaker 1: looking to overcome that. The Lord forgives even the worst
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Speaker 1: of of of offenders, and he could, he could make
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Speaker 1: your life new, He could give you hope, he could
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Speaker 1: use you even if you failed many times, even if
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Speaker 1: you've done bad things. They're still hope for you, just
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Speaker 1: still forgiveness for you. And and that's that's the message
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Speaker 1: I always take carry forward, you know, back to you.
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Speaker 1: Choice Light and l a defense attorney. He was given
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Speaker 1: multiple twenty five years to life sentences six and they
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Speaker 1: were to run consecutively. That means one after the next,
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Speaker 1: after the next. Therefore, he would be doing about a
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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty years behind bars minimum. If you take
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Speaker 1: twenty five time six and that that's that's giving him
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Speaker 1: a bonus of several years to life. So why should
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Speaker 1: he get out now? And I'm happy that he believes
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Speaker 1: he's been forgiven by our Holy Father, and maybe he has,
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Speaker 1: but that's between him and the Lord. That does not
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Speaker 1: mean that we have to open the jail house door
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Speaker 1: and let him walk free just because he's been forgiven.
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Speaker 1: That means, you know, maybe he'll get to go to heaven.
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Speaker 1: I don't know about that, but I know this, this
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Speaker 1: guy does not need to walk. Nancy. His attorney reports
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Speaker 1: that every single time that he visited him, the staff
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Speaker 1: at the correctional facility would gush about what a model
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Speaker 1: prisoner he's been, and how appropriate and compliant and helpful
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Speaker 1: he's been. That's funny because I don't see them quoted
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Speaker 1: anywhere but by the offense lawyer. Well, I'm sure that
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Speaker 1: the parole board can call any of those witnesses. And so, yes,
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Speaker 1: he did get consecutive life sentences, but they were not
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Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole. And so the law is
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Speaker 1: working here by giving him an opportunity to be evaluated
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Speaker 1: by a parole board, by a civilian parole board who
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Speaker 1: can look at what he's done and listen to his
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Speaker 1: story and see if he's shown remorse, which he has.
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Speaker 1: He's admitted to his crimes and he was caught dan
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Speaker 1: the water. He admitted after the state had created a
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Speaker 1: case that would have proven him guilty, and he would
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Speaker 1: have it would have been probably life without parole. He
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Speaker 1: planed on these That's why he got life with the
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Speaker 1: possibility of parole. I mean he planned because he was busted. So, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: they state made a deal with him, and they now
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Speaker 1: you want them to reneg on their deal. No, I
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Speaker 1: want him to do a sentence that sixth consecutive twenty
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Speaker 1: five years. And you know what, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: This is Robert Valante who describes being shot by son
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Speaker 1: of Sam David Berkowitz, who now wants to walk free. Listen.
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Speaker 1: We decided to drive to one of the as they
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Speaker 1: call it a lovers lane. But we got out and
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Speaker 1: we went into the park. When I walked to the swings,
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Speaker 1: I saw who I found that later on was Berkowitz.
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Speaker 1: But then I didn't pay on mind. Just so here's
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Speaker 1: just some guy hanging out in the park, you know.
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Speaker 1: So we go onto the swings. But now Stacy turns
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Speaker 1: to me and said, Robert, you know what, I'm getting
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Speaker 1: a little nervous. Why don't we go back to the car.
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Speaker 1: I went back into the car. Now we're sitting there
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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes and we're just talking, you know,
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Speaker 1: kissing you a little bit and talking and uh. And
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Speaker 1: that was it. And then five minutes later is when
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Speaker 1: everything happened. When I got shot. I woke up and
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Speaker 1: I couldn't see anything. I was totally blind. I was
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Speaker 1: totally you know, full of blood. I couldn't see Stay.
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Speaker 1: She's sitting right next to me. I heard some moaning
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Speaker 1: coming from Stacy. I said, oh my god, Oh my god,
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Speaker 1: we've been shot. The bullet totally destroyed the left eye
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Speaker 1: and most of my right eye. I kept asking for
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Speaker 1: her every day, and they kept saying, Oh, she's gonna
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Speaker 1: be she's gonna be okay, She's gonna be okay. I mean,
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Speaker 1: while she died eighteen hours after we admitted right into
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Speaker 1: the hospital. I was very guilty for years that Stay
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Speaker 1: she was killed because she said, Robert, let's go, and
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Speaker 1: I said five more minutes. And in that five minutes
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Speaker 1: when we got shot. So if I would have left
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Speaker 1: when she said, I probably would have. She would be
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Speaker 1: alive today. It just consumed me the guilt. Have you
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Speaker 1: found it in here to forgive David Berkowitz, Not even
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Speaker 1: for for hotbeat, not even for a second. Killers like
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Speaker 1: that don't change. He can come up with this one again,
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Speaker 1: Christian stuff and everything else. He was evil then, and
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Speaker 1: he's still evil as far as I'm concerned. You know
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Speaker 1: just the way I feel, you know, and I think
18:42
Speaker 1: anybody in my position would probably feel the same way.
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Speaker 1: You know, he ruins not just my life, twelve other lives,
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Speaker 1: plus the families. So how do you forgive something like that,
18:58
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Speaker 1: enter your own name get started. I was very guilty
20:15
Speaker 1: for years that stay. She was killed because she said, Robert,
20:22
Speaker 1: let's go, and I said five more minutes. And in
20:27
Speaker 1: that five minutes when we got shot. So if I
20:31
Speaker 1: would have left when she said, I probably would have
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Speaker 1: she would be alive today. A prolific killer, son of Sam,
20:40
Speaker 1: also known as the forty four caliber killer, a serial killer.
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Speaker 1: David Berkowitz to Vincent Hill, private investigator and former police officer,
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Speaker 1: joining me, Vincent, when you hear the victims describing this
20:56
Speaker 1: and that guy, Robert the Alante just scribing how he
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Speaker 1: was shot and the young girl he was with a
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Speaker 1: nineteen year old girl who was killed by the way
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Speaker 1: um He's describes something that we often shrug off, pure evil.
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Speaker 1: A lot of people won't talk about it. A lot
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Speaker 1: of people won't say it because they think it sounds crazy.
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Speaker 1: You know what, I disagree. I think there is good
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Speaker 1: and there is evil in the world. I really do.
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Speaker 1: And I believe with all of my heart that the
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Speaker 1: Son of Sam is pure evil. And you know, our
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Speaker 1: choice is for him to walk free on parole or
21:40
Speaker 1: to stay behind bars where he belongs. Do you believe
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Speaker 1: and in your practice is a cop and a p
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Speaker 1: I that evil does exist? No, absolutely, Nancy. Just like
21:51
Speaker 1: there's a heaven in the hell, there is definitely good
21:53
Speaker 1: and evil and then exists all over this world. And
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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the Son of Sam proved it,
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Speaker 1: and I think that victim said it best. Guys like
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Speaker 1: that don't change. And this guy has been carrying this
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Speaker 1: guilt around for almost forty years, Nancy. And let's look
22:08
Speaker 1: at it a different way. What if the Sun is saying,
22:11
Speaker 1: what if his main objective is to get out and
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Speaker 1: finish that job, to go seek this guy out when
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Speaker 1: he gets out of prison, maybe not to kill him,
22:19
Speaker 1: maybe just to taunt him. But I think he's exactly
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Speaker 1: where he needs to be and where he should remain
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Speaker 1: in prison. You know it wasn't just hire. There are
22:27
Speaker 1: so many other victims. Karen Stark, New York psychologist. Do
22:32
Speaker 1: you believe that evil exists? Oh, without a doubt, Nancy.
22:38
Speaker 1: I think it that evil exists. I think that we're
22:41
Speaker 1: born with the capacity to be good or to be evil.
22:46
Speaker 1: And um, I think that as a psychologist. I mean
22:52
Speaker 1: there's a combination of genetics and background that contribute to
22:57
Speaker 1: whether that comes out. And this is a guy who
23:02
Speaker 1: I I can't I can't really tell you that there
23:05
Speaker 1: is such a thing as rehabilitation. I don't care what
23:08
Speaker 1: they're saying about him in jail. It's easy in jail
23:12
Speaker 1: to come across as a good guy. Troyce Layton, Let
23:15
Speaker 1: me guess you're the l a defense attorney joining us today,
23:18
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer. Troy, I guess you don't think evil exists.
23:23
Speaker 1: Of course evil exists, Nancy. In order to have good
23:27
Speaker 1: there must be bad. In order to have uh good people,
23:31
Speaker 1: there will be evil people. Yes, of course there is.
23:36
Speaker 1: But we need to look at the facts, and the
23:40
Speaker 1: facts are that he has demonstrated over the past three
23:46
Speaker 1: decades a life of industry and sobriety, and the facts
23:54
Speaker 1: indicate that he, for all intents and purposes, has been
23:59
Speaker 1: a model prisoner. He's been a good person helping others
24:03
Speaker 1: inside jail for the last thirty years. Well, here's how
24:07
Speaker 1: the whole thing went down. The son of Sam David
24:09
Speaker 1: Berkowitz was born to a young lady. Within a few
24:15
Speaker 1: days of his birth, she gave him away for adoption.
24:18
Speaker 1: Why we don't know that. But she did not die
24:21
Speaker 1: in childbirth, as he would want you to believe. Now.
24:24
Speaker 1: He was then adopted by a very loving family, Pearl
24:27
Speaker 1: and Nathan Berkowitz, and uh, they were hardware store retailers,
24:33
Speaker 1: and they were childless and desperately wanted a child, and
24:38
Speaker 1: they adopted him almost immediately. He started causing trouble, causing
24:44
Speaker 1: trouble at school. He had high high high above average intelligence,
24:50
Speaker 1: but he lost interest in learning at an early age
24:54
Speaker 1: and instead became interested in stealing and starting five yours
25:00
Speaker 1: and neighbors and relatives would recall him as being a
25:03
Speaker 1: spoiled brat and a bully because of all of his misconduct.
25:09
Speaker 1: In his bullish behavior, in the neighborhood. He joined the army,
25:14
Speaker 1: he served the US and South Korea. He was discharged,
25:18
Speaker 1: He found his birth mother and after a few visits,
25:23
Speaker 1: she told him the truth of his birth. But yet
25:25
Speaker 1: he still continues this fantasy of his troubled childhood because
25:29
Speaker 1: his mom died in childbirth. It's all a lie. He's
25:33
Speaker 1: still lying even now. If you don't believe me, listen
25:36
Speaker 1: to another of his victims that lived to tell the tale.
25:40
Speaker 1: This is Carl Dinorro describing being gunned down. Started out
25:46
Speaker 1: as a typical Friday night. We drove to a hundred
25:48
Speaker 1: fifty ninth Street and thirty second Avenue. Basually we started
25:52
Speaker 1: making out, and like two minutes later, the car exploded.
25:56
Speaker 1: All the you know, the windows blew out of the car.
25:58
Speaker 1: Because it was a Volkswagen went to was at the time.
26:01
Speaker 1: They were they were made air tight, so as soon
26:03
Speaker 1: as as soon as the bold hit, the windows just shattered.
26:07
Speaker 1: So I piece the class all of my arms. I
26:10
Speaker 1: didn't know I was shot, but I knew something terribly
26:12
Speaker 1: and terrible it happened. I told her start the car,
26:15
Speaker 1: let's get out of here. And as she pulled up
26:17
Speaker 1: in front the bar at the doorman said that I
26:21
Speaker 1: was calling. You know, looked too good. He said, you know,
26:23
Speaker 1: sit down, And as I sat down, my head dropped
26:27
Speaker 1: and my long hair was holding in all the blood
26:30
Speaker 1: from my head wound that I didn't didn't know I had.
26:33
Speaker 1: Three of my friends drove me to Flushing Flushing Hospital
26:36
Speaker 1: murdency room, where they proceeded to pick out bone fragments
26:41
Speaker 1: and class fragments from the back of my head. And
26:44
Speaker 1: basically next thing I remember, I was in a hospital
26:47
Speaker 1: bed when my head bandaged up, and I was probably
26:50
Speaker 1: nine time in the morning. When I got home, I
26:54
Speaker 1: there was nothing. There was no skull. The skull was
26:57
Speaker 1: blown away. It was probably aside a little bit big
27:00
Speaker 1: than a fifty cent piece, So I the only thing
27:02
Speaker 1: protecting my brain from the outside world was a flap
27:06
Speaker 1: of skin. So I basically was housebound for three months
27:11
Speaker 1: until I had second surgery to put a plate in
27:14
Speaker 1: my head. I have limited vision um on my right
27:18
Speaker 1: side below my waist, so unfortunately walk into fire hydrants
27:23
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. But other than that, I've I've
27:26
Speaker 1: you know, there's no no residual effects. I'm happy to
27:31
Speaker 1: be alive, and I know, well, you know, I know
27:33
Speaker 1: a lot of people died from the same from the
27:36
Speaker 1: same gun. So in that respect, you know, I'm just
27:39
Speaker 1: happy to be alive. And one of my favorite sayings
27:42
Speaker 1: is life stuff, get a helmet. Wow, we are listening
27:45
Speaker 1: to a victim that lived to tell the tale, the
27:47
Speaker 1: victim of David Berkowitz's son of Sam. Vincent Hill, private
27:51
Speaker 1: investigator with me Kier and start New York psychologist and
27:54
Speaker 1: renowned defensive jorney out of l A. Troy Slayton. So,
27:58
Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, he's going son of Sam David Barker was
28:01
Speaker 1: going up for a parole hearing yet again, and many
28:05
Speaker 1: insiders believe he actually has a shot to walk free
28:07
Speaker 1: this time. Vincent Hill explain how a board hearing works
28:12
Speaker 1: for the parole board. Well, they're gonna look at many,
28:14
Speaker 1: many factors, Nancy. They're gonna look at his behavior inside prison.
28:18
Speaker 1: You know what he's done since he's been there. I
28:20
Speaker 1: know Troy said he got a college degree, and they're
28:23
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna look at that. They're gonna look at
28:25
Speaker 1: any disciplinary history may have had in prison, which he
28:29
Speaker 1: may not have had any. I mean, if you look
28:30
Speaker 1: at this guy without his forty four caliber He's not
28:33
Speaker 1: a very intimidating guy to be in prison with some
28:37
Speaker 1: actual hardened criminals that kill people very personally in your face.
28:42
Speaker 1: So I doubt he's had any disciplinary issues in prison.
28:45
Speaker 1: So they're gonna look at all of that and make
28:48
Speaker 1: that decision. But import more importantly, they're going to listen
28:51
Speaker 1: to these victims who will be at that hearing so
28:54
Speaker 1: they can tell these stories that they're telling here in
28:57
Speaker 1: this piece that we're listening to to karras Jar New
29:00
Speaker 1: York psychologist Karen What does it reveal the fact that
29:04
Speaker 1: he seemingly enjoyed killing and maiming. He would return to
29:10
Speaker 1: the scene of the crimes to kind of relive the
29:12
Speaker 1: murders and would even send taunting letters mocking the police
29:19
Speaker 1: before they actually captured him. What does that reveal about
29:22
Speaker 1: who he is? Well, it revealed Nancy Dad he has
29:27
Speaker 1: um no conscience, that he actually enjoyed the experience. And
29:31
Speaker 1: one of the things that they find when they look
29:34
Speaker 1: at serial killers and murderers is that they had very
29:39
Speaker 1: um low threshold for excitement, that their heart feat is low,
29:44
Speaker 1: and that they have to really really raise it in
29:47
Speaker 1: order to enjoy themselves. And one of the things that
29:51
Speaker 1: they enjoy is any kind of a thrill, And for
29:56
Speaker 1: a man like this, the thrill comes from killing. No.
30:00
Speaker 1: Just looking at some of the letters that he wrote
30:02
Speaker 1: to police Troy slayton Um, he refers to himself as
30:06
Speaker 1: son of Sam, Sam the Terrible, the Duke of Death,
30:12
Speaker 1: disciple of Hell, blah blah blah blah. Please inform all
30:16
Speaker 1: the detectives worse working in the case. I wish him
30:19
Speaker 1: the best of luck. Keep them digging, think positive, knock
30:23
Speaker 1: on coffins. Really, Troy, I'm quoting from his letter. Sounds
30:29
Speaker 1: like somebody crying out for help, Nancy. Sounds like a
30:33
Speaker 1: serial killer. This was a person who, to the only
30:37
Speaker 1: family that he knew, the Berkowitz family that was good
30:40
Speaker 1: enough to take in a child who was essentially orphaned
30:44
Speaker 1: by being given up for adoption, was told that his
30:48
Speaker 1: mother died in childbirth. That's not necessarily a story that
30:52
Speaker 1: he made up. That's what he was told. And then
30:54
Speaker 1: he went and talked to his mother. He found her,
30:58
Speaker 1: He talked exactly so he found out that the only
31:02
Speaker 1: family that he knew, the Berkowitz Is, had lied to him,
31:06
Speaker 1: so he couldn't even trust them. The people who had
31:09
Speaker 1: taken him in and raised him. So he went on
31:12
Speaker 1: a killing spray. He served his country in the army
31:16
Speaker 1: and saw probably some horrible things in South Korea which
31:20
Speaker 1: could make anyone be disturbed. And disturbed, yes, but people
31:25
Speaker 1: come from back from battle all the time and don't
31:28
Speaker 1: go on killing sprays. Troy, I mean, that's lame. So
31:32
Speaker 1: he did some horrible things. He admits that he did
31:35
Speaker 1: horrible things. He admits that he was overcome by dark forces,
31:41
Speaker 1: by evil, by whatever you want to call it. And
31:44
Speaker 1: then he's been a model prisoner. He's done every single
31:51
Speaker 1: what about has asked? Does the name Golden State Killer
31:55
Speaker 1: ring a bell? Think about? Think about in a moment
31:58
Speaker 1: right now, a former cop Dangelo is connected to at
32:04
Speaker 1: least twelve murders, fifty brutal rapes, and a hundred and
32:07
Speaker 1: twenty home burglaries because a site like ancestry dot com
32:14
Speaker 1: where some relative hide of the killer had sent in
32:20
Speaker 1: their DNA at some point. So the police gets super
32:24
Speaker 1: smart and they sent in DNA from one of the
32:28
Speaker 1: murders and they get a hit. What's the likelihood that
32:33
Speaker 1: the same thing is going to take place with son
32:36
Speaker 1: of Sam Because you know, familial DNA is now allowed
32:39
Speaker 1: in New York thanks to the father of a murder victim.
32:45
Speaker 1: And what would you think about the possibility there may
32:48
Speaker 1: be more murders connected to son of Sam that would
32:51
Speaker 1: pretty much blow his chances of parole, Troy, Look, if
32:54
Speaker 1: there are other uncharged crimes that the government has evidence of,
32:59
Speaker 1: then bring forward and and let's hear it out in
33:03
Speaker 1: the in the courtroom. And yes, with the Golden State Killer,
33:07
Speaker 1: they caught him, his time is up. Great, he'll go
33:11
Speaker 1: to trial and we'll be able to test the evidence
33:15
Speaker 1: against him. So if that that's pure speculation to think
33:20
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden there's going to be more
33:22
Speaker 1: evidence against Berkowitz. If they had that evidence, we would
33:26
Speaker 1: certainly know about it. Now, guys, we are talking about
33:29
Speaker 1: the son of Sam, David Berkowitz, who is now coming
33:33
Speaker 1: up for parole. Let's hear a little bit more of
33:36
Speaker 1: David Berkowitz here he is posting himself on YouTube. Okay, well, well,
33:42
Speaker 1: my name is David uh David Burkewitz, and I'm currently
33:46
Speaker 1: in prison doing multiple life sentences for a series of
33:51
Speaker 1: murders which happened back in nineteen seventies. Six nineteen seventy seven.
33:56
Speaker 1: I've been incarcerated for thirty nine years, approach in the
34:00
Speaker 1: forty year mark, and my story really is a story
34:04
Speaker 1: of UH tragedy and triumph. It's a story of a
34:09
Speaker 1: lot of hurt and pain, but thanks to God, a
34:12
Speaker 1: lot of peace and UH forgiveness. And I've seen over
34:17
Speaker 1: the years many miracles that have happened in my life,
34:21
Speaker 1: in the life of some of the people that were
34:24
Speaker 1: hurt by this tragedy, and UH as a as a
34:29
Speaker 1: Christian in prison, I've seen God do many wonderful things
34:32
Speaker 1: in the lives of the prisoners here, reuniting them with
34:35
Speaker 1: their family members, helping them to deal with guilt issues
34:39
Speaker 1: and all the things that I'm dealing with myself. So
34:42
Speaker 1: I've been there and done that and and suffered along
34:46
Speaker 1: with them. But this story is really although there's some
34:49
Speaker 1: very sad parts to my story, I believe that it's
34:53
Speaker 1: a story of forgiveness and hope and triumph, and that
34:57
Speaker 1: ultimately whoever here me speak now or watches this UH,
35:03
Speaker 1: that they will take away something that they never some
35:06
Speaker 1: insight that they never knew before about childhood struggles, growing
35:11
Speaker 1: up overwhelmed with periods of depression, and self destructive behaviors,
35:17
Speaker 1: as well as you know, my adolescent struggles as well
35:21
Speaker 1: as the good things that happened, because I really had
35:23
Speaker 1: a life of going up as a kid in the Bronx.
35:26
Speaker 1: I really had a life of adventure there and many
35:30
Speaker 1: good experience as well as a bad one. So it's
35:32
Speaker 1: a it's a bit of sweet story. It's like a
35:34
Speaker 1: tale of two cities. And so this is really what
35:37
Speaker 1: I want to share, and I I really don't know
35:40
Speaker 1: how to begin except to say, well, I guess I'm
35:42
Speaker 1: beginning right now, come to think of it. But I'd
35:45
Speaker 1: like to begin by sharing, uh a serious some portions
35:50
Speaker 1: of some letters I received a number of years ago,
35:53
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, UH,
35:58
Speaker 1: from a woman who lost her daughter in the last
36:02
Speaker 1: of the so called Son of Sam shootings. UH. This
36:06
Speaker 1: young woman, Stacy moscow wos Uh, tragically lost her life
36:11
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven, and of course, after I was arrested,
36:19
Speaker 1: there was tremendous hostility towards me from the public and
36:22
Speaker 1: of course from the families of victims and so forth.
36:24
Speaker 1: And that's perfectly understandable. Over the years, though, as I
36:29
Speaker 1: moved on with my life, having come to prison and
36:32
Speaker 1: going through the whole, this whole ordeal. It was always
36:36
Speaker 1: on my heart, especially after I became a Christian myself,
36:40
Speaker 1: to to somehow reach out to the people I had
36:44
Speaker 1: heard in the past to hurt in my time of ignorance.
36:47
Speaker 1: And and I said, God, make a way for me
36:51
Speaker 1: to just let these people know whoever they are and
36:54
Speaker 1: wherever they are, you know how sorry I am for
36:57
Speaker 1: what had happened, and and how I you know, pray
37:01
Speaker 1: for them and hope that as much as possible they
37:04
Speaker 1: can heal from this. Of course, no one ever fully
37:06
Speaker 1: heals from from losing a loved one, especially losing somebody
37:10
Speaker 1: in a crime, during a crime of violence. Nevertheless, that
37:13
Speaker 1: was always one of my highest prayers, that somehow I
37:17
Speaker 1: can make peace with the least somebody from that time
37:20
Speaker 1: of my past who was tragic, was hurt greatly and
37:24
Speaker 1: over the years thanks to a well, of course, it
37:29
Speaker 1: was God God that did this, but also I thank
37:31
Speaker 1: up a journalist by the name of Maury Terry who
37:35
Speaker 1: was used by God, I believe, to help me to
37:38
Speaker 1: reach out to this one particular a person, and this
37:41
Speaker 1: is Mrs Moscow. It's Nissa Moscow Wits, whose daughter Stacy
37:46
Speaker 1: was killed in that in that last shooting. And it
37:50
Speaker 1: was a dream come true because contact was made through
37:53
Speaker 1: some friends in Georgia who had been a Christian couple
37:57
Speaker 1: in Georgia whom were friends of mine and reached out
38:00
Speaker 1: to her and established a friendship, and eventually I was
38:04
Speaker 1: able to write to Mrs Moscow. It's Tenissa. She always
38:07
Speaker 1: wanted to be called Nissa, and so I was able
38:10
Speaker 1: to write to her and we developed a correspondence and
38:14
Speaker 1: we even spoke on the phone on a handful of occasions,
38:17
Speaker 1: and it was a time of great healing and everything.
38:20
Speaker 1: And really this was a miracle of God. If you
38:22
Speaker 1: think about how miraculous this is, it's not something to
38:25
Speaker 1: be taken lightly. It doesn't happen every day where uh
38:29
Speaker 1: the mother of a of a murder victim would would
38:32
Speaker 1: would forgive uh you know, the person in prison. And
38:36
Speaker 1: but this is exactly what happened. Hope and triumph, Hope
38:40
Speaker 1: and triumph, you know what, uh Karen started. I really
38:44
Speaker 1: can't really explain it, being a crime victim myself, to
38:47
Speaker 1: hear him talking about his potential release behind bars, it
38:54
Speaker 1: actually makes my stomach hurt, and I wonder if the
38:58
Speaker 1: other victims feel the same way. It's like a bitter
39:02
Speaker 1: taste in my mouth. They're dead, their entire lives were
39:07
Speaker 1: plugged away from them as teens in a brutal way.
39:12
Speaker 1: It's like he went hunting for young women and he
39:15
Speaker 1: would find them and murder them and take great joy
39:18
Speaker 1: in it, going back to the scene to relive the
39:21
Speaker 1: moment he killed them, taunting the police. I mean, that's
39:25
Speaker 1: why we have jail, to keep him in there and
39:29
Speaker 1: away from innocent people. Karen, I mean, the whole this
39:33
Speaker 1: whole thing is very upsetting to me, without a doubt, Nancy,
39:37
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that for you it just triggers all
39:40
Speaker 1: your own memories and trauma that you went through. It's
39:44
Speaker 1: really hard to listen to him say what a tragedy
39:48
Speaker 1: it is. That he's talking about something that he created,
39:52
Speaker 1: and it says though he's not, it's as though he's
39:55
Speaker 1: talking about another person um some tragedy. You don't get
40:01
Speaker 1: any feeling of authenticity, which it doesn't surprise me at all,
40:05
Speaker 1: because he can't be authentic. He has a personality disorder,
40:11
Speaker 1: another issue. I haven't you're the shrink, you know, I'm
40:13
Speaker 1: just a trial lawyer. Is all the lies that he spends.
40:17
Speaker 1: The lies about his mom dying in childbirth to try
40:20
Speaker 1: to make us feel sorry for him. The lie about
40:23
Speaker 1: his upbringing when he had to loving adoptive parents that
40:27
Speaker 1: took him in and tried their best to give him
40:29
Speaker 1: a good life. The lies about and he admits this
40:33
Speaker 1: was a lie that he carried out in court where
40:37
Speaker 1: he claimed faky mental illness that the dog Harvey, who
40:43
Speaker 1: belonged to the neighbors Sam, told him to commit murders.
40:46
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds fantastical, but it was the basis
40:50
Speaker 1: for a mental incompetence or insanity claim at the time.
40:53
Speaker 1: And he engineered that lie to manipulate his lawyers, mental
40:59
Speaker 1: health work, hers, the courts, everyone. That's how he got
41:04
Speaker 1: his Moniker son of Sam killer. All of this carefully
41:09
Speaker 1: engineered to save his own skin. Karen starting, I mean,
41:14
Speaker 1: why would we go out on a limb and let
41:17
Speaker 1: this guy loose? I can't imagine that we would do that, Nancy,
41:21
Speaker 1: And I bet it doesn't happen. Wait, I forgot to
41:23
Speaker 1: tell you something, Karen. And when he was sentenced. When
41:27
Speaker 1: he was sentenced, he attempted to jump out of a
41:29
Speaker 1: window to get away. He was restrained, and he kept saying,
41:34
Speaker 1: over and over, Stacy was a whore. I'd kill her again.
41:38
Speaker 1: I'd kill them all again. Stacy was a whore. I mean,
41:44
Speaker 1: he murdered the girl. That's who he is. In death.
41:50
Speaker 1: He's still calling her names, he's still attacking her, vowing
41:55
Speaker 1: he would kill them all again. And there's a chance
41:58
Speaker 1: this guy is gonna be released, Karen Start, I can't
42:01
Speaker 1: imagine that, Nancy, he won't be released. I would be
42:04
Speaker 1: amazed if he would be released. I know that, yes,
42:08
Speaker 1: we're supposed to have prisons be for rehabilitation. You cannot
42:13
Speaker 1: rehabilitate somebody with this kind of mental disorder. He doesn't
42:17
Speaker 1: know how to feel. Regret, he can't change. That's an impossibility.
42:22
Speaker 1: I don't think that they know what else to do
42:24
Speaker 1: with him. But I wouldn't buy a single thing that
42:28
Speaker 1: he says. He doesn't really come across even when you
42:32
Speaker 1: listen to him now as somebody who has any sincere
42:36
Speaker 1: regrets or understand what went into that happening for him,
42:41
Speaker 1: I don't think we should feel sorry for him because
42:44
Speaker 1: he was so lucky that he was adopted by these
42:47
Speaker 1: people and he shows classic signs of someone who has
42:51
Speaker 1: an antisocial personality, getting in trouble when he was a kid,
42:55
Speaker 1: constantly bullying, all of the things that we know to
43:00
Speaker 1: this kind of a diagnosis, the lawns in jail, this
43:05
Speaker 1: and hill when you look at his stack of lies
43:09
Speaker 1: that he's perpetrated on the system. And even after killing
43:13
Speaker 1: the girl, calling her an open court Ahore, I mean
43:17
Speaker 1: he didn't know her. He murdered her and then went
43:19
Speaker 1: back to revisit the scene to relive the moment he
43:23
Speaker 1: killed her. Vincent, once a liar, always a liar, Nancy,
43:27
Speaker 1: And in my opinion, for this guy, once a killer,
43:30
Speaker 1: always a killer. I've said it before, I said again,
43:33
Speaker 1: he needs to stay exactly where he is. Well, you know, Vincent,
43:37
Speaker 1: I disagree with you on one thing. I think people
43:40
Speaker 1: can change. I do. I believe that people can see
43:45
Speaker 1: what they've done wrong and that they can change and
43:49
Speaker 1: they can start over and they can have a new life.
43:52
Speaker 1: I really believe that. But why would I chance it
43:57
Speaker 1: on son of Sam Troy Slayton. Why would I take
44:01
Speaker 1: that chance and risk him killing somebody else so he
44:07
Speaker 1: can have a new life. Why? Well, Nancy, if you
44:12
Speaker 1: deny it, to him. Then you deny to everybody, because
44:16
Speaker 1: I don't deny to everybody because everybody is not a
44:19
Speaker 1: serial killer. So every serial killer who's granted the possibility
44:24
Speaker 1: of parole should not be granted parole under any circumstance. Right,
44:29
Speaker 1: you're a serial killer, you stay behind bars if you
44:32
Speaker 1: don't get the death building. Yeah, that's what I think. Well,
44:36
Speaker 1: that wasn't the deal, And the deal was not that
44:39
Speaker 1: he would not have the possibility of parole. The deal
44:43
Speaker 1: was that he would have the possibility of parole. And
44:46
Speaker 1: he has done every single thing that he's supposed to do.
44:50
Speaker 1: He has helped other inmates with mental health issues, he
44:55
Speaker 1: helped the chapel services. He has done every single thing
45:00
Speaker 1: that you could possibly do. And so you don't like
45:03
Speaker 1: the way that he sounds. You don't like his answers
45:07
Speaker 1: to the questions. They don't know. I just don't believe
45:10
Speaker 1: anything that's going You know what, could You can dress
45:14
Speaker 1: the devil up in a Choir Boys outfit, but that
45:17
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that he's got a tail and horns.
45:20
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time in my cell when
45:22
Speaker 1: I have free moments, but I'm not in the chapel
45:24
Speaker 1: or at work whatever. I try to get some writing done.
45:28
Speaker 1: Usually writing let us to individuals to encourage them, sometimes
45:33
Speaker 1: writing let us to churches and youth groups. I also
45:36
Speaker 1: have an online journal Rise and Shine dot org uh
45:41
Speaker 1: and which is run by a friend. I don't have
45:44
Speaker 1: incident access or anything like that, but sometimes I'll send
45:48
Speaker 1: my writings to this person and they'll put it online
45:52
Speaker 1: because they feel it, you know, touches a lot of lives.
45:54
Speaker 1: Some people from all over the world actually read that.
45:56
Speaker 1: We had visitors from from the Middle East and for
46:00
Speaker 1: and China. It's really amazing that the site has been
46:03
Speaker 1: there for a number of years since two thousand and
46:05
Speaker 1: five actually, And so I love I love writing a journal. Uh.
46:11
Speaker 1: Even prior to that, I would send out some of
46:15
Speaker 1: my writings to friends, and over time friends would comment, David,
46:19
Speaker 1: you know these these things need to be in a
46:21
Speaker 1: book now. I was just writing for enjoyment and also
46:25
Speaker 1: because these are things God put in my heart to
46:27
Speaker 1: write about certain things, different subjects and or spiritual messages
46:32
Speaker 1: or whatever mixture of all these things. And and my
46:36
Speaker 1: attitude was, well, if God wants me to put these
46:40
Speaker 1: in a book form, we'll have to send somebody my
46:42
Speaker 1: way to do that because I have no idea how
46:45
Speaker 1: to do that. I never even thought about that. Well.
46:47
Speaker 1: Over time, another friend did find somebody who was a
46:50
Speaker 1: book publisher and approached me a Christian man and offered
46:54
Speaker 1: to put some of my journal entries into book form,
46:58
Speaker 1: not for me to profit. I take take nothing from that,
47:00
Speaker 1: but but it was it was just for to reach
47:05
Speaker 1: people with the writing. So I said, well, what the
47:08
Speaker 1: lords will be done? And and a book called Son
47:11
Speaker 1: of Hope Prison Journal, Volume one was was released I
47:15
Speaker 1: think about two thousand and five, although the publisher kind
47:18
Speaker 1: of dropped the ball. It's not really available anymore. But
47:21
Speaker 1: I continue to write my online journal and I stay
47:24
Speaker 1: busy with that and just reaching people. My parents made
47:29
Speaker 1: a home for me, and I'm thankful. I'm thankful for
47:31
Speaker 1: everything that I experienced that was good. I experienced many
47:35
Speaker 1: good things in life. People would know that because they
47:37
Speaker 1: just focus on the crimes, and but you know, I'm
47:40
Speaker 1: not going to allow my life to be defined by
47:43
Speaker 1: the crimes that happened during that very difficult time of
47:46
Speaker 1: my life when I was not in my right mind
47:49
Speaker 1: um and where I had all the influences people influencing
47:53
Speaker 1: me too. With the Satanism and things like that. You know,
47:57
Speaker 1: that was a tragic period. I was at a vulnerable
48:00
Speaker 1: time getting out of the army, and all my friends
48:03
Speaker 1: that I knew before I went into the army had
48:06
Speaker 1: all got moved on, got married. So I was kind
48:08
Speaker 1: of like the odd man out. And uh, I was
48:12
Speaker 1: just lonely and searching for my place in the world,
48:15
Speaker 1: and and fell into a lot of hard times. But
48:19
Speaker 1: I'm a survivor. I mean, God has brought me all
48:22
Speaker 1: this way, and he just bring me all this way
48:24
Speaker 1: for nothing. And I believe that God had his hand
48:27
Speaker 1: on my life even before I was born. Um. I
48:31
Speaker 1: may have been born out of wedlock. People make a
48:33
Speaker 1: big deal out of it. It's no big deal to
48:35
Speaker 1: me anymore, because, as I said, I thank God for
48:38
Speaker 1: everything that happened to me, because it's all worked out
48:40
Speaker 1: for the good in the long run. But God has
48:44
Speaker 1: given me. Um. God knew I was coming one day
48:48
Speaker 1: and he welcomed me into this world. So even if
48:51
Speaker 1: my birth father Joe didn't want me, God wanted me.
48:57
Speaker 1: And and so the story in some way has a
49:01
Speaker 1: happy ending. It's happy ending. It's gonna be over my
49:07
Speaker 1: dead body that I ever agree for son of Sam
49:10
Speaker 1: to walk free and wreak havoc on innocent people, like
49:16
Speaker 1: all the ones he's already killed. I hope the Pardoner
49:19
Speaker 1: in Parole Board are listening now. Nancy Grace Crime Stories
49:25
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend. Did you know a recent law
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