Latest / Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast / How immunoglobulin therapy is reshaping gut and immune support with Dr. Chris Warner

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How immunoglobulin therapy is reshaping gut and immune support with Dr. Chris Warner · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is Wellness by Designs and I'm your host, Andrew Whitfield Cook.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: And joining us today is Dr.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Chris Warner who works with Prolient Health and Biologics.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're talking about the many health benefits of immunolin, one of my favourite new things to the market.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Chris.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: I've got to say, I have always been in historically a big fan of colostrum.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I've used it with such great effect and with very, very rare side effects.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I have seen it in a couple of people with like really weird IgG sensitivities and things like that.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I was so excited when Immunolin came onto the market.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just I've dropped colostrum.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I just use immunolin now.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: But let's talk about this.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain for our audience what immunolin actually is and how it differs from colostrum?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely, Andrew.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so immunolin is just a serum-derived bovine immunoglobulin protein isolate.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is it's a lot of words together, but they can break them down.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: They all make sense.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So serum derived just means it's from plasma, it's from blood, right?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh bovine is obviously cow immunoglobulin.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: These are the antibodies that we all have, uh that cows have in their blood to be able to protect them from infection, right?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And a protein isolate just means that it is a highly purified protein mixture.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So greater than 90% of the powder is actually protein.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so um that's that's it, that's what immunalin is.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a uh a proprietary product that that Prolient Health and Biologicals is has developed.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, I've been working with it for about 12 years now.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we're talking about colostrum, we we talk about uh secretory IgA, which is the immunoglobulin A, two of those joined by a J chain.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we've also got things like lactoperoxidase, lactoferrin, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us what's in immunolin that differs or acts the same, indeed.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's very similar to colostrum in that it's a uh a complex protein mixture, right?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you talked about a peroxidase, right?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So uh uh colostrum is uh IgA, IgG, uh a lot of other proteins, casein, uh, and non-proteins as well, such as lactose and fats.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Ummunalin, when it comes to what it is molecularly, is is also very similar in that it's a complex mixture of the proteins that you would find in your plasma.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so uh we've actually done a lot of proteomics work on amunalin to assess what are the other proteins that are there.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh albumin is uh one of the other major proteins, not IgG, but amunalin itself is over 50% IgG.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of one of its defining features, especially when compared to colostrum, you know.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so coming from blood, you know, blood is a very stable, consistent raw material, and that begets being able to process it in a way that uh lends itself to a stable, consistent final product.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, we manufacture it to be a really high concentration of IgGs.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's greater than 50% IgG on a powder basis, 90% protein.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there's still a lot of other proteins in there.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I mentioned albumin.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Albumin is the dominant protein in blood, it helps regulate the blood pressure of animals, it helps transport nutrients like fatty acids and other small molecules.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh also within amunolin is some transferrin, which is a protein that's responsible for iron binding and uh iron binding transport, and actually does have some ability to uh to break down uh bacterial cell walls and bind some toxic components.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh you know, there's a lot of other proteins in there as well.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, all in all, it's approximately 180 uh proteins, most of which are very, very small abundance.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But uh in our kind of analysis of it, what we've determined is I think uh there's effectively no significant difference, lot to lot, of the concentration or identity of those other proteins.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think it goes back to consistency uh for immuno and what it is molecularly.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh, you know, you compare that to colostrum.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh colostrum is a great product.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just you look at that raw material and it's it's a it's the kind of first milking from a cow that's given birth, the second milking from a cow that's given birth, the third, maybe the fourth.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And over the course of those milkings, the IgG concentration starts very high and then it steadily decreases, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason it starts high is obviously to confer immunity from the mom to the the baby that doesn't have any.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: But what that means is for the people manufacturing colostrum, they are dealing with a raw material that's more variable up front.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that more variable raw material means it's uh harder for you to process to be able to control.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and all in all, that just leads to a much more variable product in colostrum.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, when you can colostrum, you know, we've uh we've done lots of analysis of immune versus some of our colostrum competitors, because when we initially launched immune, it was as a colostrum replacer.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you see is just a bunch of variants in that market.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You have some colostrum products that are really, really good, 40% IgG, uh, and then a bunch of others that are 20%.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And now, nowadays, with the shortage of colostrum, you get people that, you know, uh end users that can't even put an IgG percent on their label because the colostrum they can't source it consistently at 20% or 40%, anything like that, versus again, for us immunolin, which it's it's always manufactured to greater than 50, which lends itself to being on the label as 50% IgG and lends itself to consistent dosing.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's very hard to have uh consistently good efficacy and results from a product that you're taking if the product that you're taking is never the same, even though the the bottle looks it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's indeed why I swap.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: That that is the factor why I swapped to E-minulin.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh um, because I remember, like in in past days, I used to use colostrum with great effect.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just seen over the years this degradation of percentages.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and also that whether it's a labelling requirement in Australia, I'm not sure.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um But um I now see with with colostrum, I I just don't see lactoperoxidase, lactoferin, I don't see it being mentioned.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um now I don't know about that.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe somebody who's out there can let us know in the comments.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to know.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to learn about this.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um so can we go further then into the usages?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Usages?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Into the uses of mineral and we'll learn English one day.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um And how is it clinically relevant from uh colostrum between when you're choosing between the two in practice?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think in in practice, really what we're we're talking about goes back to that consistency, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh consistency in dosing and consistency and better tolerability, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that better tolerability is driven from a couple of different things.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one is that uh colostrum being a dairy-based product, there's a lot of lactose uh in that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there are a significant number of people who are lactose intolerant.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, I wasn't sure what that rate was in in Australia.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I did look it up.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was somewhere between 15 and 30 percent, is what I was seeing.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, we uh uh we have some some partners all over the Asia Pacific and and elsewhere in Asia Pacific, the incident rate on of uh lactose intolerance is up at 70%.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really, really a high number of people are unable to take colostrum because what does the lactose do?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: It leads to bloating, it leads to diarrhea.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if these are the the kind of GI effects that you are looking to reduce or you're looking to promote uh GI health, obviously you can't be taking taking the lactose in.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, additionally, I think uh something that's that spawns out of the inconsistency of that raw material and just how dispersed the collection is, is uh when you're processing colostrum, a lot of those final products end up with some endotoxin in the final powder.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's something we've we've done two different colostrum comparison studies um over the last, I don't know, seven years, let's say.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And every time we've tested a colostrum product, what we've seen is detectable amounts of of endotoxin in that powder uh versus you know our minalin, which which doesn't have it, but you know, the endotoxin is uh an insult to the GI uh system, which will cause inflammation, uh gut barrier damage, all these negative things that you're looking to prevent, what you're looking to do is stop that inflammation.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Endotoxin is very much the cause of it, and it's coming along in some of these claustroum products.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are really the the two big differences that I see uh for it in terms of clinical relevance.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you you've just tweaked something in my mind here because um you know, I used to think about immunolin for gut and stops at the gut barrier sort of thing.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're getting me thinking, though, in uh helping patients with uh what we used to call NAFLE, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and now we're calling mastald, which is metabolic dysfunction associated liver dysf uh liver disease.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: So um is is immunode uh immunolin now uh uh indicated in helping to decrease that LPS assault on the liver?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for liver, I wouldn't be able to say it is absolutely indicated for reducing inflammation associated with lipopolysaccharide, uh LPS or endotoxin.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, that is uh LPS is one of the major drivers of inflammation, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a breakdown product of bacterial cell walls, uh commensal bacteria, pathogenic bacteria that are in your gut, and you know, presents at the epithelial layer of the lumen, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: But is also able to translocate that, especially with in people that have leaky gut, and then cause inflammation, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, ammunalin, what is uh really cool about it in the world of of uh of GI health is that immunalin uh acts as kind of a binder and a neutralizer, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: The LPS molecule molecule can be uh you know flowing through your your uh upper lower GI tract, and uh immunalin, that antibody will just come along and bind it, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it'll become so large that it can't get through the holes of the leaky gut.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of my coworkers likes to talk about this like a uh um like a volleyball net, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is the epith the epithelial layer?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is basically skin cells in your gut, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's kind of like a uh if it's healthy, it's like a ping pong ball net.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really fine holes.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, you get a little bit of translocation across that barrier into the uh immune reactive layer.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have a healthy gut, if there's a lot of insults, then it's more like a volleyball net.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so you get these LPS molecules that can kind of translocate across that layer, but mulein will come in and bind it and make it so large that it can't pass through that hole anymore, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons, one of the ways it's able to kind of prevent uh inflammation in the immune reactive layer.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, what that does is it prevents an entire immune cascade, this negative feedback cycle where you have uh lipopolysaccharide uh presenting to the gut, translocating through the holes in the epithelial layer into the lamina propria, being bound by a dendritic cell being presented to a lymphocyte, causing a pro-inflammatory response, like a tumor necrosis factor alpha, which then goes back and damages the epithelial layer and just it's like a self-reinforcing cycle of damage.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, well, I can't say on the liver liver end because we haven't done those studies.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: We've done the studies to back up the the binding neutralization on the just general gut health and for specifically for uh studies around HIV enteropathy, uh for IBD, IBSD, you know, uh also chloritis and Crohn's.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, thanks so much for explaining that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just catch myself in something that you said there?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: I made this quantum leap from leaky gut, which you were correctly talking about, to me erroneously talking about the end condition which may result from that, and that is um uh mattled.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So can I just correct myself and bring it back to what was going through my mind was leaky gut.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks for that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So can we lead on from there?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I uh I think this is really the the interesting thing about uh immutilin, and is uh it actually helps to prevent the kind of inflammation cascade, negative feedback cycle that is the leaky gut, right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so um talked a little bit about how LPS can uh translocate the epithelial barrier, cause inflammation.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: That inflammation then creates more damage to the leaky barrier and it creates that cycle, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I uh I often liken it to um like a house that has water damage in it, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh think about this in terms of you know, that roof is very much the the epithelial layer, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the rest of your house is is very much the rest of the structure of the uh the mucosal layer.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, oftentimes, you know, our symptoms of this are uh bloating, diarrhea, um, abdominal discomfort, and it all results from this leaky gut.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and effectively, you know, the our standard treatments today or historically have been well, you go in and uh you try and treat the symptoms, and you try and treat the symptoms by uh by fixing the flooring uh before you've removed the water, the standing water, fixing the roof while it's raining out.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And really, what you need to do here is you need to the problem is not the fact that you've got a leaky group leaky roof.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that you've just got water, water coming in.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's first and foremost, those are the antigens.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's the LPS.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can't fix the leaky roof if you don't have a sunny day.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what immunalin is is right, it's the sunny day.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It comes in and it's like these little hands that go up there and catch the water droplet.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you actually have time to repair the leaky, the leaky roof, get rid of the standing water, and just let the whole mucosal layer kind of have a breath.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And during that breath, it's actually has some time to repair itself, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Produce anti-inflammatory cytokines, produce more tight junction proteins, reduce the leakiness of the gut so that you have an intact roof and actually break that cycle of inflammation and damage that is so hard to repair.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So uh this is why I use it not just in infectious uh conditions, which was my original sort of attraction, if you like, to the old colostrum.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um and indeed immunolyin, but um but now I use it in things like IBS and and other conditions where there's inflammatory modulation that that needs to happen in the gut.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: But can I ask a question though, with regards to identification of things to bind to, right, or to settle down.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I know the answer to this, but I'd love your um confirmation.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when we're talking about, let's say, um SIBO, when we've got an overgrowth of otherwise helpful bacteria, but now I guess you've spoken about settling down that terrain, which of course is everything.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: So is that the answer?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Is that why eminolin is indeed indicated in conditions like SIBO where the good guys are overgrowing?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that's absolutely correct.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so uh I think the the the microbiome is is a really interesting part of this.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you refer to SIBO, you know, the small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh lately, we've also been interested in in small intestinal fungal overgrowth, yeast overgrowth.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and immunalin's perfect for that because even good bacteria can become bad when they break down, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the breakdown products cause inflammation, and that's why immunalin is is so great in those, is because it doesn't really matter if it's good, if it's bad, it's a breakdown product that causes inflammation.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Immunalin effectively binds to it, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've got, I don't know, somewhere over 40 different antigens that we we demonstrated binding of our IgGs to, you know, the cows themselves that produce this are exposed to lots of different uh bacteria, lots of different uh viruses, and very, very similar ones to us.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that, they produce these polyclonal IgGs that can bind to so many different types.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the disease indication, SIBO is a good one, uh, IBD, IBS, all these really hard to treat disease conditions is where immunalin has been so great because uh, you know, for patients that have been on, uh, we have there's an example case study that we have where there's a an 18-year-old with Crohn's that was had uh was basically refractory and was not responding to a phyliximab anymore.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Put them on immunalin, and suddenly uh dysbiosis went away.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: The presenting symptoms of diarrhea went away, and it's just a really hard-to-treat patient.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we've seen that over and over with immunalin.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we have a couple of different uh case studies for uh IBD on hard-to-treat patients, where I think we had roughly 45 patients or so in a 12-week study and saw that almost threefold their patients on immunin were almost threefold more likely to report improvement in their clinical symptoms.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Another study for IBSD, uh similar number of patients, I believe, um, pilot study, uh, where uh I think there was 100% of the patients saw at least a 50% improvement in their symptoms.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then 75% of or was it 50% of the patients report 75 to 100.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh these are the hardest to treat patients, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: The the ones that have the SIBO, the IBD, and immunolin is really just uh is is what works when nothing else does for them.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, to you know, this idea of of uh you know who can take it, it is, you know, we started off on the hardest to treat patients.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea really was at that point, if we're able to have success with these patients, what else is out there for us?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do in somebody who doesn't have the the extreme uh inflammation that's uh of somebody with uh Crohn's or UC?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask about dosing with this?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have to do a step up um dosing, like starting off with these really fragile patients, or did you just go in with a standard dose?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we did a step-up, uh, so actually it's not a step-up dose.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Really, what we did is we went in and we went in with kind of a get you back on track dose, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh for the the patients in the studies that we're we're talking about, they were taking uh the medical food version of this product, which is uh you know a five gram dose.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and for them, we came in and it would be 10 grams, would be typical, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of trying to write right the ship, get them back on course, reduce that inflammation, reduce the leakiness, and then step it down to a maintenance dose where you know they they can just kind of slowly heal themselves.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the idea was really let's get them back on track and let's get them back on track quickly.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: From a safety standpoint, there's really there was no concern.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, this is uh effectively just a protein product, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and so we're able to go in, and because we have this uh this generally recognized as safe designation, when we went into uh to the IRB's uh institutional research.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Forwards and and and ran these case studies or clinical trials, uh there's very little concern on safety.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of able to go in, treat the hard ones, give them a higher dose, and then and then walk it back down.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: So this is your ethics committees and things like that, yes?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so the next thing is I'm just talking about these super sensitive people.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, patients who maybe can't tolerate even, you know, fibers.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um certainly some antimicrobials, and certainly in the natural world, um the antimicrobials tend to be a bit late, um lacking on taste, let's say.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um bit of a taste challenge.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: These people that are super sensitive, um, I don't where am I going?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Things like um let's say histamine intolerance, um, MCAS, um, patients like that, these really recalcitrant patients that are hard to treat.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: How does immunolen fit with them?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think uh for these patients, immunalin is uh is a really great place to start.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um frequently, these highly sensitive patients have uh kind of an overactive immune system, anyway, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I think this is one of the cool things, another cool thing about immunolin um is that you know uh when you think about stimulating the immune system to make it more effective, you know, how is that done?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's typically increasing white blood cells, macrophages, neutrophils, antibodies.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you think of increasing as a as a good thing, but this inflammation cascade that we referred to earlier, it more inflammation, uh more immune response is not always a good thing.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So these patients have an overactive immune system, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Goldilocks and three bears, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want porridge that's uh too cold or too hot, you want it to be just right.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're sensitive, you're already like a like a car engine that's that's overheating, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh you have uh you stimulate that immune system more, it can uh cause fluid breakdown, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the metal expansion, eventually you lose a head gasket.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so the cool thing about immunolin is it can come in and it doesn't stimulate the the immune system like we would think of traditionally, right?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: What it does is it allows a cooling off period.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: It can come in, bind up these pro-inflammatory molecules like LPS that are causing the insults, the the uh crossing the the immune react into the immune reactive layer and and leading to pro-inflammatory cytokines, and and uh it just again allows a cool down period for for these highly sensitive patients to just allow their immune system to to get to a state of homeostasis, right?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um can we go in further about uh uh to can we talk a little bit further about dosing?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're talking about these rather sick patients with Crohn's, and you actually did a higher dose, almost like a rescue dose, and then brought them down to a maintenance dose once they were stable.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can you take us through appropriate dosing uh the range that you'd use in various conditions, like for instance, uh in post-infectious, well not post-infectious, infectious diarrhea, um uh to inflammatory conditions, to um uh let's even go into autoimmune conditions.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh again, I think our our standard dose for for these these harder patients is is is kind of five grams a day.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have uh the two studies that are top of mind for me here um are uh uh an IBSD study that we did, um, where we gave patients either five to ten grams per day over the course of a month and a half, and looked for uh reduction in in uh the number of days that they would have kind of these global symptoms of of IBSD.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So think again, loose stools, urgency, abdominal discomfort, bloating.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and what we saw with uh with uh that 10 gram dosing was uh, and I'd have to look back at the five, but definitely with 10 gram dosing was a reduction of 30 in a 33% reduction in terms of the mean number of days with symptoms, right?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So over the course of the year, what we're talking about is four months.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Four months where these patients on 10 grams per day uh did not have abdominal discomfort or urgency.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they were able to get some form of their life back.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um another study that we have that I think is relevant here is uh patients with HIV associated enteropathy.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've done a few different randomized clinical trials in this space and and range from anywhere from two and a half to 20 gram uh per day for various time periods, uh, four weeks up to 20 weeks.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think what we've seen in a lot of these patients is this kind of five gram per day dose has made real significant improvements of uh both lowering uh systemic inflammation.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so think uh reduction in IL-6 that these patients would have in their in their blood, uh, and improve their gut barrier function as measured by um decreasing markers of inflammation of the gut, like intestinal fatty acid binding protein or zonulin, uh, which would you know decrease and zonulin would be an indicative of tightening of the gut barrier.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so really good uh five gram per day data.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then just kind of thinking maybe one step down uh for you know for healthy patients.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had a study with the University of North Texas because we were really interested in what happens when you get down to something that's really more of a supplemental dose.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Our entire dosing strategy was based around the amount of uh immunoglobulins that are made per day in the typical human gut, which is five grams.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of where five grams came, 10.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so for a supplemental dose is defined uh this in the United States would be 20% of that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So one gram per day dosing.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we looked at uh we have a study with uh University of North Texas, where we recruited a bunch of college students and uh and and gave them a high fat diet in a single setting, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they actually got to choose what that was, and they chose uh a large cheese pizza.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So these students sat down, ate their whole large cheese pizza, and then five hours later we did a blood draw and we tested them for circulating LPS in their blood.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what you saw was you know roughly like a doubling in the amount of LPS that was in their blood.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh then we gave them immunalin for you know one gram per day, two grams per day for 45 days.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of that 45-day period, gave them pizza again and said, go ahead, eat it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they ate the pizza, and then uh we again did a blood draw.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and in that blood draw for the patients that were on immunolin that had initially this increase in LPS upon eating, what we saw was just no increase in LPS after 45 days of treatment at these lower one gram, two gram per day dosages.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think uh back to the this this question, you know, for these really severe hard tree cases, this 10 gram per day, which is that kind of rescue dose, does a really good job over six weeks.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these longer uh patients, uh these uh patients that have longer term treatments, like the 20 20 weeks at two and a half, five grams, that did really well for those patients with HIV and associated enteropathy.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then your standard college kid that just is worried about leaky gut that's attached to just standard living habits, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: The food you eat, how how you live, the type of exercise you do, really these lower maintenance doses were able to establish a positive effect for them.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I'm thinking now about the gut brain superhighway.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: You were mentioning college kids.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about brain fog, studying, anxiety as part of the therapy, maybe not the sole therapy, but I'm thinking this is such an important part of the therapy where you can really heal the gut, along with probotics, along with fibers, along with whatever else you're doing, but you can make a marked difference in reducing that LPS and reducing the effects in distal areas.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, chronic rhinocynovitis, allergies, brain fog we mentioned, mood stabilization, blah, blah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: The uses just go on and on.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think this is one of the areas I'm I'm most interested in when it comes to immunolin is the fact that you get these uh these non-GI effects, right?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so the uh so I I come from a chemical engineering background.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I did my postdoc at a uh metabolism and aging uh institute at Scripps, and one of the really interesting things that I came came across uh in my time there was this microbiome effect.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and so one of my co-workers was studying the impact of of uh bacteria on the longevity of fruit flies.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we had another professor that was really interested in uh ghrelin, an appetite hormone.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and ghrelin, if if uh you're not familiar with it, is produced in the gut, and then it crosses into through across the gut brain access into the brain, where it stimulates a dopamine response to make you uh hungry, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And specifically it stimulates dopamine type two receptors, D2s.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh those are also associated with exactly what you're talking about mental health, uh anxiety, depression, uh, things like that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I think this uh this ability to mine the gut brain access is just absolutely fascinating when it comes to some of the efficacies that we've seen with plasma proteins.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Chris, and just leading on from that, uh something I said before about the sort of using instead of probiotics.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I need to sort of say a little spit story.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: I like I've when I've had an infectious episode, um, I've previously used immunolin to catch it early, whereas probiotics would take, you know, when you look at the literature days to have an effect, one of the fastest ones would be Sacromyces Bullardi, where if you take truckloads of it, and I have, um, that you can catch it quite quick.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But imminolin is like, as long as you're not vomiting, as long as you can keep it down, it works so fast.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to just make the point that I'm not saying that it takes the place of probiotics, it indeed helps them.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Am I correct in saying that?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh absolutely.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I think this is one of the areas of research that I'm I'm particularly interested in with immunalin, is how it interacts with probiotics and and prebiotics, things that modulate the microbiome.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so in uh in studying immunalin, uh, the effects of binding and neutralization of antigens became pretty clear pretty early on.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, however, there is a lot of these non-GI effects that were not clear.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we uh plasma proteins have been shown to uh reduce effects of respiratory viruses, improve uh cognition, reduce uh cholesterol, and not all those are immune, right?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: But uh they're all related.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Immunalin is a plasma-derived protein.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we we because of some of these uh these non-GI effects, we we looked at a COVID trial and saw efficacy there.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but what's interesting about it is those are not binding and exclusion effects, um, but those are something else.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so um one of the the kind of our sister companies makes a spray-dried plasma product that they use and they they feed it to winging pigs, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have leaky guts and traditionally they'll use antibiotics.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh instead, a lot of these uh these farmers use this spray-dried plasma.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this sister company of ours looked at modulation of the microbiome and saw some modulation uh and uh changes to phyla and and and families.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so we then looked to kind of repeat that work with with uh immunalin.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what we saw were very similar things.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: We compared ourselves to a prebiotic ammunalin, and we saw changes to um to uh phyla, we saw changes to family level uh bacteria, and then from that, increases in short-chain fatty acid production, uh, which led to increased intestinal epithelial layer integrity.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and I can keep going on that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really interesting, uh, led to decreased TNF alpha, pro-inflammatory cytokine kinds, and increases in these beneficial microbial metabolites, like these tryptophan catabolites that can do multiple things, repair gut homeostasis, increase um uh improve uh tidjunction expression, some of which can cross the gut brain barrier, getting back to the gut brain access.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's really cool about this is we did that, we compared it to inulin, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know we I've seen another study where it's a comparison of um, anyway, uh when we compared our results to uh inulin, what we saw was a clear difference in the type of bacteria that were being overexpressed by immunolin versus inulin.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in follow-up studies with N-acetylglucosamine, the same thing happened.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Immunalin stimulates one population, NAG stimulates another.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you put them together, and what you see is a uh a complementary effect in terms of increasing the diversity, increasing short chain fatty acids.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's really where a lot of why a lot of people are interested in the microbiome, right?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that diversity is increasing acetate and butyrate because they help heal the colonic cells, help repair tight junctions.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think this is what's really cool is that you can have this new alternate mechanism for immunolin that plays hand in hand with prebiotics and probiotics and and doesn't negate their effects.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: It it really just helps uh uh amplify them, make them broader.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're opening up my mind here to many more uses for immunolin than I considered.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you were just talking, talking about the tryptophan metabolites then.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember some research done by Dr.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Megan Rossi uh when she was looking at um probiotics or prebiotics use in chronic kidney disease and its effect on dampening cardiovascular disease outcomes from these toxic metabolites from the indults.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is indoxyl sulfate I've got in my brain.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: So one I'm thinking about chronic kidney disease maintenance or part of therapy.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know where this is going.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say um results, I'm just sort of exploring possibilities.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: But the other one that is a dir to me is vaginal health.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've just spoken previously about CIFO, about the fungal overgrowth.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Man, this is a huge area.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I should say woman, this is a huge area.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and this is something I think we've we've had a certainly uh our uh our business development team comes to me all the time, and they've they've asked a lot about you know vaginal health in this.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's an area I'm I'm not particularly familiar with.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, microbiome modulation, absolutely.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh all I know is that I think any any uh anytime you've got a microbiome, right, and you're able to take something like immunalin, which you can take orally, digest, partially digest, partially absorb, it still will reach you know uh these common mucosal systems and and be able to have an effect on the microbiome.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It I'd be really curious to see what what somebody would do do with immunalin, those type of applications.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely quite amazing.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, such a needed area.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many frustrated women who are frustrated with current medications, and um it's not so much the lack of response, but the the just the recurrence, and so much of that has to do with landscape with terrain, you know.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just it's opening my mind to possibilities for this agent.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um you you say that, and I I uh brought back to conversations and uh and uh candida albicans is if I if I'm remembering correctly, is a big one for overgrowth, right?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I believe.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, uh Candida was one that we were really interested in more around small intestinal overgrowth.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, it is a uh fungal, and uh it's one where we've been able to demonstrate binding to uh think of both a lysate and a protein that's expressed on on the surface of that by the IgGs in amino.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so just as a last question, let's give a call out.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to clinicians that have might have been hesitant, that maybe they've used colostrum in the past and run into sensitivities or issues.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, I've certainly seen a degradation in the quality of colostrums available to us in Australia, whereas I used to be pleased, I'm not now, and I I just don't use it, don't bother.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um what's your call out for those people that might be hesitant about their experience with colostrum, what they think immunol, immunolin is, and what it actually isn't.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and maybe just to help them overcome any uh concerns they may have with allergenicity or sensitivity with gut, that sort of thing.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think what I would I would tell them is that uh all the inconsistencies that you have from colostrum, immunolin is uh developed to prevent that, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: So here what we have is a standardized non-dairy source of greater than 50% IgG.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're able to deliver predictable immune binding with improved tolerability.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this is a product that still has that efficacy that you want from colostrum, but it can deliver on the on the dosing, and it doesn't create the the sensitivity problems that that other patients have.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, thank you so much.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I really mean this so much for taking us through the many, many more benefits of Eminal N than I ever imagined today.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just it's really opened up another aspect of care for me.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I hope to others who are listening, because it's such a versatile product that works on that base immunity, and it's not just upregulating or downregulating, it's modulating.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fantastic, fantastic innovation.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it I uh I think it's fantastic in terms of what it can do for for uh for our patients that that take it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love hearing the stories of uh of people who've gotten some form of their life back because of taking it.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, being the scientist that I am, I just find it immensely interesting in terms of of how it works and uh these amazing biological systems that are our bodies.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: And indeed, more than you know, testimonies and and thank yous and things like that, but it's formalized research in people that really need care, particularly when you know the gold standard of medical care just is not holding their you know inflammatory conditions.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a real call out for practitioners to start using this stuff.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's it's just it's blowing my mind.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really thinking about where else I can use it.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got to thank you for joining us today, and thanks for explaining um the many uses of Eminalin.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you for having me, me, Andrew.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciated the conversation.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoyed it.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you, everyone, for joining us today.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really hope you got a lot out of this.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna put so much information, as much as we can, on Eminalin up on the website for you.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you can look at the other podcasts on your favourite uh app, and of course, you can look at the show notes on the Designs for Health website.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining us.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Andrew Whitfield Cook.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is Wellness by Designs.