Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: A Horrifying Discovery in the Woods - The Death of Cairo Jordan

Transcript

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: A Horrifying Discovery in the Woods - The Death of Cairo Jordan · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I don't know that there's
0:20
Speaker 1: any kind of love that really measures up to a
0:25
Speaker 1: mama's love for her babies, particularly when you don't feel good.
0:31
Speaker 1: For me, I suffered horribly with your aches when I
0:36
Speaker 1: was a child, and the only soothing to be had
0:42
Speaker 1: was in the arms of my mother, rocking me in
0:45
Speaker 1: her rocking chair and singing an old song called Down
0:49
Speaker 1: in the Valley. Kids need that, you need it when
0:53
Speaker 1: you don't feel good. There's just something about its best
0:56
Speaker 1: medicine on earth. But today I want to talk about
1:01
Speaker 1: a little boy, a little boy that needed soothing, a
1:04
Speaker 1: little boy that needed help, a little boy that needed healing.
1:10
Speaker 1: Today I'm going to talk about the murder of Cairo Jordan.
1:22
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs. My
1:32
Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
1:38
Speaker 1: is here with me. Jackie, MIT, my heart's broken. My
1:43
Speaker 1: heart is absolutely broken over the case we're going to
1:46
Speaker 1: talk about today, because I think many of us can
1:50
Speaker 1: probably identify with this little boy in the sense that
1:55
Speaker 1: he was suffering. He was certainly suffering, probably far more
1:58
Speaker 1: than many of us can even be again to fathom.
2:00
Speaker 1: But I think that like all of us, we want
2:03
Speaker 1: to be soothed. We want to be treated like we're special,
2:07
Speaker 1: We want to be assured that everything's going to be okay.
2:12
Speaker 1: In Cairo's case, I don't think that that was there
2:17
Speaker 1: for him. The death of this little boy is really upsetting,
2:20
Speaker 1: especially when you find out, with the release of the
2:23
Speaker 1: autopsy and the cause of his death, that it could
2:25
Speaker 1: have been prevented. The body of this little boy was
2:29
Speaker 1: found inside a travel suitcase. It looks like about the
2:34
Speaker 1: size of a small carry on. It is a hard
2:38
Speaker 1: sided case and on the front of this suitcase is
2:43
Speaker 1: the logo of the iconic sign of Welcome to Las Vegas.
2:48
Speaker 1: And this little boy's body was folded and stuffed inside
2:53
Speaker 1: this suitcase. It was dumped in the woods, and his
2:57
Speaker 1: body was found by a mushroom hunter. We did not
3:03
Speaker 1: know who this little boy was. We did not know
3:06
Speaker 1: if he had been kidnapped. We did not know if
3:10
Speaker 1: his body was just discarded by his parents. We didn't
3:13
Speaker 1: know anything about this little boy other than the fact
3:16
Speaker 1: that he's did And we'll get into his death and
3:19
Speaker 1: the cause of his death in a second. But I
3:21
Speaker 1: want to talk about Joe, how he was found folded
3:25
Speaker 1: up inside of a carry on size suitcase. How do
3:32
Speaker 1: you do that? I mean, if the little boy died,
3:34
Speaker 1: and we know that rigor sets in in certain stages,
3:38
Speaker 1: so what it had to have been done like immediately
3:41
Speaker 1: when he died for it to be possible. And even then,
3:45
Speaker 1: children's joints are more flexible than adults, but I mean,
3:50
Speaker 1: that's really small to be basically folded in. Two bodies
3:55
Speaker 1: are much more malleable when they are recently deceased, and
4:00
Speaker 1: that that's in my opinion at least, that's what happened
4:04
Speaker 1: because there's that level of flexibility. I'm glad you brought
4:07
Speaker 1: up this, the idea of RIGER, and just let me
4:11
Speaker 1: kind of break this down so that folks kind of
4:14
Speaker 1: understand how RIGER works. First off, it's one of the
4:17
Speaker 1: things that we use to determine post mortal interval because
4:21
Speaker 1: there's measure time with it. You know that we can
4:24
Speaker 1: kind of frame how long someone has been down relative
4:28
Speaker 1: to what's referred to as their level of rigidity. That
4:33
Speaker 1: is the tension that has set in. And I think
4:36
Speaker 1: many people will say, well, what causes this? What actually
4:39
Speaker 1: causes RIGER to begin to present. Well, it's kind of
4:44
Speaker 1: an interesting dynamic that happens after death. When we're alive,
4:49
Speaker 1: you have this cellular respiration that goes on your body
4:53
Speaker 1: and it's it's constantly pumping, it's constantly working, and it's
4:58
Speaker 1: throwing off these little balls of energy called ATP. And
5:03
Speaker 1: in death that cellular respiration ceases and you begin to
5:07
Speaker 1: produce a DP and one of the byproducts of that
5:10
Speaker 1: is lactic acid. And I tell my students listen, if
5:16
Speaker 1: you want to know what ryckermortis is, like the closest
5:20
Speaker 1: you'll ever experience it in life is if you have
5:23
Speaker 1: not worked out in some time, you go and get
5:26
Speaker 1: like a real hearty workout. In say, you begin to
5:30
Speaker 1: do some weightlifting, maybe some stretching that you're not used to.
5:33
Speaker 1: And the next morning when you wake up, how do
5:35
Speaker 1: you feel well? You know, throughout the classroom they always
5:39
Speaker 1: say stiff. You know, well, the reason you feel stiff
5:42
Speaker 1: is that there is a build up of a lactic acid.
5:46
Speaker 1: When you can take all kinds of medication to you know,
5:49
Speaker 1: loosen up an all that sort of thing, make you
5:51
Speaker 1: feel better, but sooner or later, because you're still alive
5:57
Speaker 1: and you have cellular respiration going on, that lactic acid
6:01
Speaker 1: that you have built up in your body will be metabolized.
6:03
Speaker 1: It'll go away, all right. In the dead, that's not
6:07
Speaker 1: the case, Okay. This lactic acid builds up in the
6:11
Speaker 1: joints and it creates this rigidity or riger mortis. If
6:15
Speaker 1: you're looking to try to understand, in you know, Cairo's case,
6:22
Speaker 1: where he was and what was going on at that
6:25
Speaker 1: particular time, his body would have still have to have
6:29
Speaker 1: been what's referred to as flaccid. That means movable, okay, loose,
6:35
Speaker 1: because once riger begins to set in, it's very stiff.
6:40
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to kind of manipulate the body, particularly
6:44
Speaker 1: if you're not used to dealing with dead bodies. And
6:47
Speaker 1: it's at that point in time he could have been
6:49
Speaker 1: folded up. Now we don't really know, you know, when
6:52
Speaker 1: we say folded, we don't really know what that means.
6:56
Speaker 1: We don't know if he was, say at his center axis,
7:00
Speaker 1: which if we just kind of pretend that that's the waist,
7:03
Speaker 1: if he's folded over like a pair of pants that
7:06
Speaker 1: you're going to put into a suitcase. We don't know
7:09
Speaker 1: if that's the case, or if he was kind of
7:11
Speaker 1: bawled up and placed into a fetal position. And again
7:14
Speaker 1: that would be easy, easy to accomplish, more so than say,
7:18
Speaker 1: folding the upper torso between the legs. It would be
7:22
Speaker 1: much more manageable to kind of baul him into a
7:25
Speaker 1: fetal position and place him into the suitcase and zip
7:29
Speaker 1: it up. And if you know, if it were me,
7:31
Speaker 1: and you know you were asking me, just without seeing
7:34
Speaker 1: any of the any of the crime singe photos, I'd
7:37
Speaker 1: have to say that that was probably the case. So
7:40
Speaker 1: this little boy was folded and put into the suitcase
7:43
Speaker 1: and left outside. What state would the body have been
7:49
Speaker 1: enclosed in this when he was found? Well, okay, first off,
7:55
Speaker 1: we have to say from the beginning that this rigid
7:59
Speaker 1: suitcase is going to provide some level of protection. Okay,
8:03
Speaker 1: I think that's that's kind of understood. We've got him
8:06
Speaker 1: in this encasement. Now, you know, most people understand what
8:09
Speaker 1: a suitcase feels like. It's called rigid for a reason.
8:13
Speaker 1: It's not like a soft sided thing that you can
8:15
Speaker 1: kind of easily manipulate. We know what the parameters are,
8:19
Speaker 1: and so he's encased within this structure. Now, what does
8:24
Speaker 1: that mean if you're outdoors? Well, it means that it's
8:27
Speaker 1: going to be much more difficult for large let's say, scavengers, birds, mammals,
8:33
Speaker 1: small mammals to get access to the body, so you
8:36
Speaker 1: can kind of count them out. However, it's not going
8:39
Speaker 1: to preclude insects because insects will find a way. They
8:43
Speaker 1: will find a way to get in to get to
8:46
Speaker 1: that thing that is driving their senses nuts. They're trying
8:50
Speaker 1: to find decomposing tissue, and they will go to great
8:53
Speaker 1: links to make their way in there. So it would
8:55
Speaker 1: not be beyond reason to think that there may have
8:59
Speaker 1: been larval or maggot development in this environment. It all
9:04
Speaker 1: depends on how sealed this thing truly was. There are
9:08
Speaker 1: smaller species that can get in there and kind of
9:12
Speaker 1: have an impact as well, and that's kind of what
9:15
Speaker 1: happens with what we call putrefaction and puture faction if
9:18
Speaker 1: you think of it more in the terms of when
9:20
Speaker 1: it comes to decomposition is an external force, and then
9:25
Speaker 1: you have what's called asis is almost like self digestion.
9:30
Speaker 1: So you've got to sell the breakdown that's taking place
9:33
Speaker 1: within the body, and the body kind of begins to
9:36
Speaker 1: consume itself. But you've got this odd thing that you
9:39
Speaker 1: have to kind of factor in to your assessment, and
9:43
Speaker 1: that's that the body is kind of contained and protected
9:46
Speaker 1: more so than other bodies. His body would have gone
9:49
Speaker 1: through significant decompositional changes just simply based on Autois, so
9:55
Speaker 1: the tissue would be very, very difficult to kind of
10:00
Speaker 1: initially assessed, particularly at the scene. I feel there was
10:04
Speaker 1: a statement that was made by this poor gentleman that
10:07
Speaker 1: had the unfortunate circumstance of finding this poor little baby
10:12
Speaker 1: in this suitcase, and he actually made the statement. He
10:17
Speaker 1: said he was able to look into his face and
10:19
Speaker 1: he felt like and you could hear him, he was
10:21
Speaker 1: holding back tears when he said it. He said, I
10:24
Speaker 1: felt like this little boy was asking me to help him.
10:27
Speaker 1: So let that sink in just for a second. But
10:30
Speaker 1: what we can assess from that is that when this man,
10:32
Speaker 1: who is probably not used to seeing the sort of thing,
10:35
Speaker 1: open the case, he was able to stare into this
10:39
Speaker 1: baby's face, he could appreciate the face. So that means
10:42
Speaker 1: that that the body was not that far gone to
10:46
Speaker 1: the point where the body was in some kind of
10:48
Speaker 1: liquefied state, which does happen sometimes with decomposition. So his
10:52
Speaker 1: features were probably still appreciable, and that's that's horrific to
10:55
Speaker 1: think of. But that's that's kind of the first blush.
10:58
Speaker 1: And this is this gentleman, this must hunter that was
11:01
Speaker 1: out there. He's actually the first person to put eyes
11:03
Speaker 1: on in this discovery. So that I think that that's
11:05
Speaker 1: probably pretty significant here and we can get into more
11:09
Speaker 1: of the detail relative to trace evidence in this sort
11:12
Speaker 1: of thing. You know, he comes across in this isolated
11:15
Speaker 1: area out in the middle of nowhere, and this is
11:18
Speaker 1: truly in the middle of nowhere, this odd suitcase to
11:21
Speaker 1: begin with. I mean, it's it's very garish. That kind
11:24
Speaker 1: of goes along with Vegas, right. Vegas is garish, you know,
11:29
Speaker 1: it's bright, illuminated and here you are in rural South
11:33
Speaker 1: Indiana and you're minding your old business, just out collecting mushrooms,
11:37
Speaker 1: and you see this suitcase is sitting in the middle
11:40
Speaker 1: of a place that it does not belong. And I
11:44
Speaker 1: think that possibly if he had to do over again,
11:48
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have wanted to have opened the thing up,
11:50
Speaker 1: because this is an image that's going to live with
11:52
Speaker 1: him for the rest of his natural one days. I
11:55
Speaker 1: am not being flipped here, Joe I truly am not,
11:57
Speaker 1: and I am not meaning in the disrespect, but the
12:00
Speaker 1: one thing that I have learned since I have begun
12:04
Speaker 1: my career in crime investigation, I will never open any
12:08
Speaker 1: package that I find, and I truly am not being flipped.
12:11
Speaker 1: I am as serious as a heart attack, as we
12:14
Speaker 1: say it in the South. I will never open any
12:17
Speaker 1: discarded package or suitcase that I find on the side
12:20
Speaker 1: of the road or anywhere for that matter, because the
12:23
Speaker 1: idea of what I'm going to find inside. I know
12:27
Speaker 1: that I could not cope with what this poor gentleman
12:29
Speaker 1: did when he opened that suitcase and found a body.
12:32
Speaker 1: It is just heart heart wrenching. He's going to be
12:35
Speaker 1: ravaged by this emotionally. This is not something that you
12:39
Speaker 1: just you know that you can just kind of blow
12:42
Speaker 1: off and forget. It bores down into your soul. This
12:45
Speaker 1: kind of thing particularly, it would be hard enough even
12:48
Speaker 1: for me. You know, there have been cases where I've
12:51
Speaker 1: gone out where mass shootings for instance, or like where
12:55
Speaker 1: family is completely wiped out in a house. I've actually
12:59
Speaker 1: found a body before. And you say, well, Morgan, you
13:02
Speaker 1: you know your death investigator, of course you found bodies. No,
13:05
Speaker 1: I don't, No, I don't I show up its scenes
13:10
Speaker 1: after people have found bodies. And I still remember a
13:14
Speaker 1: case in particular where I had a kid that had
13:17
Speaker 1: fled from his father as his father's wiping out the family,
13:21
Speaker 1: and he hid in a closet and the father had
13:23
Speaker 1: gotten to him and shot him in the closet and
13:25
Speaker 1: closed the door, and the kid was unaccounted for. And
13:28
Speaker 1: I'm the person that found him. I'll never forget that
13:31
Speaker 1: as long as I live. And I was in the
13:33
Speaker 1: midst of all these other bodies when that happened, but
13:35
Speaker 1: that kid's body huddled in that closet out of fear.
13:39
Speaker 1: It will stay with me in my mind's eye for
13:42
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Can you imagine you're in
13:45
Speaker 1: this kind of semi forested area, you know, where people
13:47
Speaker 1: hunt mushrooms. It's going to be dark essentially, because that's
13:51
Speaker 1: where mushrooms grow, you know, tree covered all that sort
13:53
Speaker 1: of stuff. And you walk up on this thing and
13:57
Speaker 1: it's kind of calling out to you. You can't help,
13:59
Speaker 1: but you got to walk over and figure out what
14:00
Speaker 1: it is. Maybe he jostled it a little bit and said, wow,
14:03
Speaker 1: this is heavy. You know what's in here? And he
14:05
Speaker 1: opens it up and you know, he comes face to
14:08
Speaker 1: face with this a little boy. Every time. I don't
14:29
Speaker 1: mean sometime, I mean every time I've ever worked a
14:34
Speaker 1: case where an individual has found a body, they have
14:39
Speaker 1: consistently said when you ask them to kind of retell
14:44
Speaker 1: their story, without fail, they will say, I couldn't believe
14:50
Speaker 1: it was happening. I can't believe this is what's going on.
14:57
Speaker 1: And I can only imagine for this man, it was
15:00
Speaker 1: out just you know, collecting mushrooms. That's what happened with him.
15:04
Speaker 1: I think that for a moment he was stunned that
15:08
Speaker 1: what he was actually viewing there before him. But at
15:13
Speaker 1: some point in time you got to shake it off.
15:16
Speaker 1: You gotta get your phone out, and you got to
15:18
Speaker 1: call nine one one. And I think that probably when
15:21
Speaker 1: the police showed up, they were equally stunned. How do
15:24
Speaker 1: they begin to process a scene like this, given that
15:27
Speaker 1: the little boy was enclosed in the suitcase. Are you
15:31
Speaker 1: worried as much about the outside, like literally the area
15:37
Speaker 1: where the case was found, or you just concentrated on
15:41
Speaker 1: the suitcase itself since he was enclosed. This is so bizarre.
15:47
Speaker 1: You know that good Lord just didn't set this case
15:51
Speaker 1: down there in the middle of the wilderness. As an investigator,
15:54
Speaker 1: I would be very interested in the periphery. What points
15:58
Speaker 1: of access do you have to location? Is there a
16:01
Speaker 1: common path that people walk down when they're kind of
16:05
Speaker 1: you know, traps in through the woods out here, and
16:07
Speaker 1: we know that this gentleman's looking for mushrooms? How many
16:09
Speaker 1: other people have been out there? And we're in the
16:14
Speaker 1: middle of deer season right now, you know, and they're
16:17
Speaker 1: I've got friends that go to Indiana to hunt deer
16:20
Speaker 1: because it is such a great place to hunt, that
16:23
Speaker 1: have leases on property and all that sort of thing.
16:26
Speaker 1: Is this scenaria that hunters would go through? And then
16:28
Speaker 1: you've got game paths, but there's paths that game actually take,
16:33
Speaker 1: so you have to kind of separate those things out.
16:36
Speaker 1: When you begin to think about this environment, you know
16:40
Speaker 1: who has access to it, what major roads are around it.
16:44
Speaker 1: Is it a place that a perpetrator might use because
16:51
Speaker 1: they feel as though it's out of sight, that it's
16:56
Speaker 1: a place that, you know, you can take an item
17:00
Speaker 1: so that no one would see it. And if that's
17:02
Speaker 1: the case, why would you leave it in plain sight
17:04
Speaker 1: once you got to this location. Was it something that
17:07
Speaker 1: was done in a hurry or was it something that
17:09
Speaker 1: was specifically planned. I was looking at the photographs of
17:16
Speaker 1: this case and one of the things that really really
17:20
Speaker 1: caught my attention. I mean, from Jump Street, there's this.
17:23
Speaker 1: I urge anybody to go out there and take a look. There.
17:25
Speaker 1: There's a photograph that obviously the police had had snapped
17:29
Speaker 1: because it's got a tape measure adjacent to it. And
17:31
Speaker 1: that's that's what we call, you know, placing a scale
17:34
Speaker 1: in the photograph so that you can get an idea
17:36
Speaker 1: of how tall the dimensions of this thing. And when
17:38
Speaker 1: I was looking at the looking at the suitcase, I
17:42
Speaker 1: noticed something about it. First off, the handle was dirty.
17:45
Speaker 1: It's got one of those retractable handles on it, and
17:48
Speaker 1: it was dirty. It looked like it had like dry
17:50
Speaker 1: dirt or mud that was on the handle. And secondly,
17:54
Speaker 1: here's the thing. This thing's got wheels on it. Guess what,
17:57
Speaker 1: there was mud on the wheels, I think. And this
18:01
Speaker 1: is kind of chilling with this precious baby's body in there,
18:05
Speaker 1: like they're walking through the concourse at an airport. They're
18:10
Speaker 1: walking through the woods dragging this suitcase containing this little
18:17
Speaker 1: boy's body within it, like they're going to their gate
18:19
Speaker 1: to catch a plane. There's mud on these wheels. They
18:23
Speaker 1: drug it out there, set it out, and I'm assuming
18:26
Speaker 1: they set it out, would handle extended because that's a
18:29
Speaker 1: picture that the police had of it. And again that's
18:34
Speaker 1: another indication I think of what a callous, callous, heartless
18:40
Speaker 1: actus is. When they started to process the suitcase, you
18:45
Speaker 1: just mentioned the wheels. Given what you just said, what
18:50
Speaker 1: kind of tests I mean, would it have been very
18:54
Speaker 1: in depth on the dirt or residue on the wheels
18:58
Speaker 1: to see where the suitcase had been. It all depends
19:02
Speaker 1: on how much how much value the investigative agency places
19:10
Speaker 1: in certain types of trace evidence. Some agencies will say, well, yeah,
19:13
Speaker 1: we want to go the extra step and have, say,
19:16
Speaker 1: for instance, a soil assessment conducted. And what I mean
19:20
Speaker 1: by that is in this particular area of Indiana, you're
19:25
Speaker 1: north obviously of the Ohio River, and it's not too
19:29
Speaker 1: far away as crow flies. I guess that from a
19:33
Speaker 1: geographic and a geological perspective, that layer of top soil
19:39
Speaker 1: there is going to be distinct to that area for
19:43
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons. But when you begin to think
19:46
Speaker 1: about the local flora, that is, the plants that grow
19:49
Speaker 1: in the area. When you begin to think about how
19:52
Speaker 1: that area was formed thousands and thousands and thousands of
19:56
Speaker 1: years ago, and not just thousands of years ago, but
19:58
Speaker 1: even recently relative to sediment in those sorts of things,
20:02
Speaker 1: that soil is going to be unique to that location.
20:05
Speaker 1: If you're coming out of let's say Appalachia, Let's say
20:09
Speaker 1: that he originated in Appalachia in the mountains in a location,
20:13
Speaker 1: that soil in that range is going to be different
20:19
Speaker 1: than say, soil that you might find in what might
20:23
Speaker 1: be considered bottom land. You know, when you're getting closer
20:26
Speaker 1: and closer to a river, it's going to have a
20:28
Speaker 1: very distinct composition to it. And so from a forensic standpoint,
20:32
Speaker 1: if we can do soil sampling and take a sample
20:36
Speaker 1: from that piece of luggage, that's something that might be significant.
20:42
Speaker 1: But are there other trace elements that are on there?
20:45
Speaker 1: These tests on soil in particular, these are what are
20:49
Speaker 1: referred to as a morphologic assessment, and what that means
20:53
Speaker 1: is that you have to examine it primarily microscopically, because
20:59
Speaker 1: each sample will have a very specific appearance depended upon
21:02
Speaker 1: the type of soil it is. Every region that you
21:05
Speaker 1: go to is unique to itself, and so you begin
21:10
Speaker 1: to narrow things down. For my money, this is going
21:12
Speaker 1: to play a big part in this because, first off,
21:16
Speaker 1: we've got this baby that's encased in the suitcase. Well,
21:20
Speaker 1: suitcase implies travel, doesn't it. So first off, I think
21:26
Speaker 1: in the investigator's mind, you're thinking, well, is his point
21:29
Speaker 1: of origin here in South Indiana? Well, whoever brought him
21:33
Speaker 1: here had luggage? Why did they have luggage, and why
21:35
Speaker 1: did they place a little boy in it? Well, there's
21:38
Speaker 1: a high probability they may have traveled from somewhere else,
21:41
Speaker 1: so that cannot be off of the table. I have
21:44
Speaker 1: to begin to think as an investigator that I've got
21:47
Speaker 1: to broaden my investigative spectrum here and considered that this
21:51
Speaker 1: little boy may have originated from somewhere other than the
21:55
Speaker 1: local population. The investigation then turns to the inside of
22:00
Speaker 1: the suitcase. What are the investigators looking for their Well,
22:05
Speaker 1: specific points of identity, and that's what you're looking for
22:09
Speaker 1: to begin with. This is a labor intensive undertaking to
22:15
Speaker 1: take this precious little angel and, as it has been
22:19
Speaker 1: stated in the news, fold him, fold him up, And
22:23
Speaker 1: we don't really know what that means. Maybe that originated
22:26
Speaker 1: with a police department. It's an interesting descriptor though. If
22:30
Speaker 1: they're saying he's folded, that means that goes to points
22:33
Speaker 1: of contact on his body and the entire environment, the
22:37
Speaker 1: interior environment of this case. So that means that whoever
22:40
Speaker 1: did this, this is labor intensive. So they're gonna be
22:42
Speaker 1: putting their hands over all of the surfaces that are
22:46
Speaker 1: found therein when you're handling a piece of evidence like this,
22:53
Speaker 1: you need to treat it as gingerly as you would
22:56
Speaker 1: if you were trying to diffuse a bomb. Because it's
23:00
Speaker 1: the slightest little movement, the slightest thing that you do.
23:03
Speaker 1: That it's not clearly considered and thought out, you can
23:09
Speaker 1: blow the whole case because you're going to disrupt something.
23:12
Speaker 1: Just think about fingerprints, those things that we leave behind
23:18
Speaker 1: with fingerprints, they're very fragile, I mean terribly fragile. All
23:24
Speaker 1: it takes is for somebody not to be paying attention,
23:26
Speaker 1: and you can eradicate a fingerprint by simply dragging your
23:30
Speaker 1: hand across a surface, because they're there fingerprints present as
23:35
Speaker 1: a result of oil on the fingertips. You know that
23:40
Speaker 1: that cover our friction ridges that leave this imprint behind.
23:45
Speaker 1: So and we know what it's like. You know, even
23:47
Speaker 1: on a surface, you know, in our kitchen or something
23:49
Speaker 1: that's an oily, you know, you might have a dot
23:51
Speaker 1: of oil that's there and you just barely touch it.
23:53
Speaker 1: Will you change the configuration of just that spilled oil
23:56
Speaker 1: just by introducing your finger into that and moving about
24:00
Speaker 1: or swiping it with your hand or that sort of thing.
24:03
Speaker 1: Same principle with with fingerprints. You have to be very careful.
24:08
Speaker 1: So from from the beginning, when they're you know, first
24:13
Speaker 1: getting into the suitcase and they begin to open it up,
24:16
Speaker 1: that has to be in the forefront of their minds,
24:20
Speaker 1: you know, as they're you know, they're beginning to you know,
24:23
Speaker 1: try to consider how they're going to handle this. My
24:26
Speaker 1: understanding is that there was plastic involved with this little
24:31
Speaker 1: boy's body, that someone had taken the time to wrap
24:35
Speaker 1: him in plastic. Well, plastic is what's referred to as
24:39
Speaker 1: kind of a smooth, non port surface. Okay, so there's
24:44
Speaker 1: a high probability that you can raise a print off
24:51
Speaker 1: of that. I don't know if they removed this little
24:55
Speaker 1: boy's body from the case at the scene, because that
24:58
Speaker 1: would be your first inclination, and it's just it's the
25:01
Speaker 1: humanity within us that wants to do that to kind
25:03
Speaker 1: of secure him. Or did they leave him in there?
25:09
Speaker 1: We know the case was opened because the mushroom hunter
25:11
Speaker 1: actually said that he looked into the little boy's face
25:14
Speaker 1: and he felt so the little boy was saying, you know,
25:16
Speaker 1: help me. That was the quote that he gave. So
25:20
Speaker 1: did they take it a step further? Did they actually
25:23
Speaker 1: remove him physically from the case at that point in
25:25
Speaker 1: time when the police were as seen, or did they
25:27
Speaker 1: leave him encased in there? Now, the best thing that
25:30
Speaker 1: could happen, as horrific as it sounds, is for him
25:32
Speaker 1: to remain in place, the body to remain in place
25:35
Speaker 1: in the encasement, because that goes to the concept of
25:41
Speaker 1: the pristine nature of the evidence. If you don't remove him,
25:46
Speaker 1: then you have a higher probability of saving any of
25:49
Speaker 1: this fragile evidence it's in there. It's not just fingerprints,
25:52
Speaker 1: it's fiber evidence too. It's also DNA because you can have,
25:56
Speaker 1: for instance, if somebody did not use gloves in this environment,
26:00
Speaker 1: even if they did to a certain degree but greater
26:02
Speaker 1: or so, if they did not use gloves, you've got
26:05
Speaker 1: an opportunity to perhaps recover touch DNA which comes about
26:09
Speaker 1: as a result of slopping dead skin cells, so those
26:12
Speaker 1: could be deposited everywhere. Again very fragile, almost like talcum powder,
26:17
Speaker 1: probably even more so than talcum powder. And then hair evidence.
26:20
Speaker 1: Say if the individual that's moving this little boy around
26:24
Speaker 1: Joscelyn and folding him up as they say they've been saying,
26:28
Speaker 1: what if they're shedding hair into this environment, and that
26:30
Speaker 1: hair is specifically identifiable back to an individual. And again
26:33
Speaker 1: the hair can contain DNA as well, So there's a
26:36
Speaker 1: lot to considering. You do this in this kind of
26:38
Speaker 1: austere environment at crom Sing outdoors where guy's hunting from mushrooms,
26:43
Speaker 1: you can lose all kinds of stuff out there. So
26:46
Speaker 1: it's important that you get this back, this suitcase, into
26:50
Speaker 1: the hands of the people at the laboratory so they
26:53
Speaker 1: can begin to do their assessment collection of all trace evidence.
26:57
Speaker 1: If they're going to have to, say, for instance, look fingerprints,
27:00
Speaker 1: they have to decide how they're going to do this.
27:02
Speaker 1: Are they going to dust the case? Are they going
27:06
Speaker 1: to use what's called idine fuming, which is generally done
27:09
Speaker 1: on things rougher surfaces like paper and wood. Are they
27:13
Speaker 1: going to do superglue. You know, we've talked about superglue before.
27:16
Speaker 1: You know, where you you warm superglue up, as it
27:19
Speaker 1: fumes up, it lands on you know, these areas that
27:24
Speaker 1: these fatty lipids that are contained in the in the
27:27
Speaker 1: fingerprints that are left behind, and it freezes it forever
27:30
Speaker 1: and ever. Amen. So you have you have it there
27:33
Speaker 1: where it can be assessed. So you have to make
27:35
Speaker 1: all of these determinations. Oh and by the way, we've
27:38
Speaker 1: got to examine this little boy's body too, so you
27:41
Speaker 1: can see how involved this is. And you don't want
27:44
Speaker 1: to do all of this at the scene outdoors. You
27:46
Speaker 1: want to try to do it back in a protected
27:48
Speaker 1: space at the coroner's office, the emmy's office, and certainly
27:52
Speaker 1: as the crime lab as well. I was really intently
27:55
Speaker 1: listening to you talking about the fingerprints inside the suit case,
28:00
Speaker 1: because that is indeed how this little boy was identified.
28:04
Speaker 1: His mother's fingerprints were found on the trash bag inside
28:09
Speaker 1: the suitcase. But I was wondering, Joe, what happens if
28:15
Speaker 1: the trash bag when they touched it, is messed up,
28:20
Speaker 1: if it's crumbled, if it's crushed, and that's how they
28:24
Speaker 1: touched it, does that impact the findings that you get
28:28
Speaker 1: trying to pull a fingerprint, it can smudge it desperately.
28:32
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up, Jackie, because if you've, okay,
28:37
Speaker 1: the initial position that you find any item like this
28:41
Speaker 1: at a crime scene, that is more than likely the
28:43
Speaker 1: way the perpetrator left it. Okay, we have to think
28:47
Speaker 1: about that. And you know, for crime scene investigators and
28:52
Speaker 1: forensic technicians, you have to essentially back your way out
28:58
Speaker 1: of the evidence, if you will, to try to unravel it,
29:02
Speaker 1: to understand it and go through what you think are
29:04
Speaker 1: the possibilities of how the perpetrator initiated all this and
29:10
Speaker 1: left a scene. So you have to kind of walk
29:13
Speaker 1: your way back through it very carefully, to take everything
29:17
Speaker 1: into consideration relative to latent prince meaning prints that are unseen. Okay,
29:22
Speaker 1: and that's important for us to remember where was it
29:26
Speaker 1: that she last made contact with the bag, where did
29:32
Speaker 1: she exactly place her hands, and not just the interior back,
29:35
Speaker 1: but also exterior. Remember the exterior has been exposed to
29:38
Speaker 1: the elements, but there still might be a chance under
29:41
Speaker 1: certain circumstances with protected areas that brings us also remember
29:48
Speaker 1: think back to what I was saying just a second ago,
29:50
Speaker 1: and this thought just occurred to me. If you've gotten
29:52
Speaker 1: mud that's on the exterior of the case. What if
29:57
Speaker 1: maybe it was raining, okay, or the surface was wet,
30:03
Speaker 1: and this individual slipped as they were moving this suitcase
30:08
Speaker 1: through this muddy environment, this dirty environment. What if just
30:13
Speaker 1: for a second, they grabbed hold of the case after
30:17
Speaker 1: they had fallen, and they've got mud on their hands,
30:21
Speaker 1: and they placed their hands on the exterior of that case. Well,
30:26
Speaker 1: that's not going to be a print that's left behind
30:30
Speaker 1: by the fatty lipids that naturally occur on the surface
30:33
Speaker 1: of our skin. Now that that's going to be a
30:35
Speaker 1: print that's that's transferred onto their by virtue of the
30:40
Speaker 1: dirt that's left behind. Can you pick up detail in that? Yeah,
30:43
Speaker 1: And that kind of falls into a category that we
30:45
Speaker 1: call plastic prints, which is it's different than a latent
30:50
Speaker 1: print that you can latent print is unseen. So this
30:53
Speaker 1: kind of immediately, you know, you look at something that's
30:56
Speaker 1: left behind where you have this medium that's like mud
31:00
Speaker 1: or oil or dirt or any number of things grease,
31:04
Speaker 1: and you can actually look at you can eyeball and say,
31:06
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, there's there's a handprint there, or that
31:09
Speaker 1: looks like somebody put their finger there. Well, if that's
31:11
Speaker 1: protected on the outside, if that's still there, you have
31:14
Speaker 1: to be very careful with the exterior as well. Those
31:17
Speaker 1: types of prints much more difficult to pick up detail on.
31:20
Speaker 1: It's really hard to pick up specific detail because you
31:24
Speaker 1: know the way print examiners actually identify prints as they're
31:28
Speaker 1: looking for what are called points. You have overall classifications,
31:32
Speaker 1: you know, loops and whirls and all those sorts of things.
31:34
Speaker 1: But within the general overall classification, you look for points
31:39
Speaker 1: of identification in there, which are called minutia, these tiny
31:43
Speaker 1: little things. That's what makes prints unique. You know, you've
31:47
Speaker 1: got ending ridges, you've got pores, you've got dots, you've
31:50
Speaker 1: got deltas. There's a whole list of these things that
31:53
Speaker 1: are in there, and everybody's print is unique within that
31:56
Speaker 1: structure of the overall classification. You can't generally pick that
31:59
Speaker 1: up on say a muddy print, but you can say
32:01
Speaker 1: somebody put their hand there. Karl Jordan was found abandoned
32:25
Speaker 1: in a suitcase in a rural area. But the old
32:30
Speaker 1: death investigator within me screams the question, I want to
32:34
Speaker 1: know what brought him to this spot. It's horrible enough
32:40
Speaker 1: that he's in the suitcase, but how did he get
32:44
Speaker 1: in it? What was he deceased when he was placed
32:48
Speaker 1: in the case. Was he still alive? And if if
32:52
Speaker 1: he if he didn't die as a result of being
32:54
Speaker 1: placed into the suitcase, what exactly brought about his death?
33:00
Speaker 1: Here is what medical examiner determined. The autopsy says that
33:05
Speaker 1: there is no external injuries on the body. Cairo died
33:12
Speaker 1: from an electro light imbalance. Now I've had you try
33:17
Speaker 1: to explain this to me before, Joe, What is an
33:21
Speaker 1: electro light and how can it kill you? Electro Lights
33:25
Speaker 1: are minerals that are containing with our body that we
33:27
Speaker 1: are heavily depended upon. You know, We've got calcium, you've
33:31
Speaker 1: got phosphates. There's a number of them that you know,
33:36
Speaker 1: I use this term a lot. They're the guardrails I
33:38
Speaker 1: think for our metabolism, and they're either positively or negatively charged.
33:44
Speaker 1: They regulate all of the various activities in our body. Okay,
33:50
Speaker 1: And you know you think about sodium for instance, that's
33:52
Speaker 1: an electro light. And you hear a lot about sodium
33:54
Speaker 1: because it's in all of these sports drinks. You know,
33:58
Speaker 1: they you know, they're talking about electrolyte replacement for instance,
34:03
Speaker 1: it is for sure something that needs to happen with
34:05
Speaker 1: sports strengths. You know, we can get into that line
34:08
Speaker 1: as much as you want. But they're loaded with sugar.
34:11
Speaker 1: So electrolytes are naturally occurring in foods. For instance, you
34:14
Speaker 1: can eat a piece of avocado and replenish electro lights
34:18
Speaker 1: as opposed to buying something off the shell, for instance,
34:21
Speaker 1: that's loaded with sugar and it's infused with electrolytes. But
34:25
Speaker 1: they're naturally occurring in our food sources. So once these
34:30
Speaker 1: electrolytes are kind of blood out of our system. Once
34:33
Speaker 1: they're diminished, every system within our body is impacted. I'm
34:38
Speaker 1: talking about your nervous system, your heart, your lungs, your muscles.
34:43
Speaker 1: With an absence of electro lights can't repair themseelves for instance,
34:47
Speaker 1: Cellular respiration can't take place, so you know your cells
34:51
Speaker 1: are screaming for oxygen. So when you have an electro
34:56
Speaker 1: light imbalance, you literally begin to starve your body and
35:01
Speaker 1: it can lead to things. You know, on the mile side,
35:04
Speaker 1: you have headaches, you can have dizziness, you have lethargy,
35:07
Speaker 1: which is kind of a wasted appearance, you know, where
35:10
Speaker 1: you're you're tired, you can't go on. But it can
35:13
Speaker 1: also lead to more serious things where you've got like
35:16
Speaker 1: severe abdominal problems that are presenting with things like cramping
35:20
Speaker 1: so badly that it's like somebody sticking a hot poker
35:24
Speaker 1: in your belly. You can have severe headaches, blinding headaches
35:28
Speaker 1: to the point where it's impacting your ability to communicate.
35:32
Speaker 1: Your speech becomes slurred, vision becomes you know, kind of fuzzy.
35:37
Speaker 1: It can lead to a stroke, and in that same conversation,
35:41
Speaker 1: when you've got a sodium depletion, for instance, it can
35:44
Speaker 1: also lead to a heart attack as well. You know,
35:46
Speaker 1: like when I say heart attack, I hate using that
35:49
Speaker 1: term because it's not so broad. You can lead to
35:52
Speaker 1: this kind of electrical malfunction within your heart that causes
35:57
Speaker 1: your heart to cease beating. There's any number of things
36:02
Speaker 1: with in your body that can go wrong as a
36:04
Speaker 1: result of being starved of electro lights. Some people believe
36:08
Speaker 1: the best way to hydrate is to take on these
36:10
Speaker 1: sports drinks and you know, boost their level of electro
36:13
Speaker 1: lights in your body. Because you're you're particularly with viral
36:18
Speaker 1: viral events, these electro lights are being bled off, and
36:22
Speaker 1: I think that in this baby's circumstance, I think that
36:26
Speaker 1: that's that's the conclusion that they arrived at. I heard
36:30
Speaker 1: what you said, Joe, I truly did hear you. Doesn't
36:35
Speaker 1: mean I really understand it. Is it similar or could
36:40
Speaker 1: you compare it to basically being starved of water? Is
36:44
Speaker 1: it the same thing as being dehydrated? Dehydration will lead
36:48
Speaker 1: to an electro light and balance again, you know, water,
36:51
Speaker 1: even in its basic form, it has electro lights in it.
36:54
Speaker 1: It's not infused or anything, but there are certain things
36:57
Speaker 1: that you can find components of water that are are
37:00
Speaker 1: contained therein because it's when you say you're drinking water,
37:03
Speaker 1: you know, people think age two, oh, and you are.
37:05
Speaker 1: But you know there's other stuff, other minerals that will
37:08
Speaker 1: be found in water that you can you can have.
37:11
Speaker 1: Now that's the purpose of having an infused drink, you know,
37:14
Speaker 1: because it's electrolytes are introduced into water, okay, into into
37:21
Speaker 1: this liquid. It'll be they'll be naturally occurring sometimes and
37:24
Speaker 1: so yeah, it leads to dehydration, particularly if you've got
37:27
Speaker 1: an ongoing illness. You know, I just think you know,
37:31
Speaker 1: many of us have had the flu. You know, most
37:33
Speaker 1: of us have had the flu over the course of
37:35
Speaker 1: our life, and that's a viral infection, and so we
37:39
Speaker 1: know how badly we feel when you're sick. You don't
37:43
Speaker 1: really want to take anything on. What's the old adage
37:46
Speaker 1: of what is it? Feed a fever, starve a cold.
37:48
Speaker 1: Oh no, feed of cold and starve a fever. Okay, well,
37:52
Speaker 1: you got it right then, So you think about these
37:54
Speaker 1: things you're going to take on because your body's burning
37:57
Speaker 1: up everything, you know, when you're ill, and you have
38:00
Speaker 1: to continue to take on nourishment, and part of that
38:02
Speaker 1: nourishment are these electrolytes, and dehydrationism is a bad problem
38:08
Speaker 1: when you're sick, particularly with a viral infection. There are
38:11
Speaker 1: a lot of things that come about. You think about
38:14
Speaker 1: stomach problems. You can either have it coming out of
38:16
Speaker 1: one end or the other, as people say, and every
38:19
Speaker 1: time that occurs, you become more and more diminished, particularly
38:24
Speaker 1: from a nutritional standpoint. Electrolytes kind of regulate our pH
38:28
Speaker 1: and our body, our assets and our basis and how
38:31
Speaker 1: our pH level is in our body, and again that's
38:33
Speaker 1: a big indicator of our level of health. It's one
38:36
Speaker 1: of the things they will check for many times at
38:38
Speaker 1: the doctor's office. You begin to think about certain other
38:41
Speaker 1: mineral levels that are in your body. If you're diminished,
38:45
Speaker 1: particularly from level of certain vitamins you have in your body,
38:48
Speaker 1: if you're not taking things on relative to whatever kind
38:52
Speaker 1: of diet that you're on, and when you're sick, it
38:56
Speaker 1: just magnifies the circumstances. In this little boy's case, they
39:02
Speaker 1: made a determination of viral gastro intorritis. Viral gastro intoritis
39:09
Speaker 1: did not come about as a result of an electro
39:13
Speaker 1: light imbalance. The electro light imbalance came about as a
39:17
Speaker 1: result of the viral gastro intorritis. Well what's the origin
39:22
Speaker 1: of that, Well, we can have gastro intorritis that will
39:25
Speaker 1: you know, if you have certain medical conditions. I think
39:27
Speaker 1: the one that really comes to mind that these and
39:30
Speaker 1: I have friends that have Chrome's disease, for instance, and
39:34
Speaker 1: they have kind of an indwelling, ongoing gastro intortis And
39:38
Speaker 1: when you hear itis like that, that means like an
39:40
Speaker 1: inflammation of your gut essentially your bowel, and it's highly inflamed.
39:48
Speaker 1: You never feel well. It's you know, they have really
39:51
Speaker 1: difficult time keeping anything down or keeping anything in their system. Well,
39:56
Speaker 1: I gotta jump in here, Joe, because I can tell
39:58
Speaker 1: you from personal experience. I had gastroentoritus when I was pregnant,
40:02
Speaker 1: and I actually had it instead of morning sickness, and
40:05
Speaker 1: I lost sixteen pounds in ten days. It's devastating, it
40:09
Speaker 1: really is. And that's what was going on with this baby.
40:16
Speaker 1: I started this conversation talking about being soothed by your mama.
40:21
Speaker 1: When you're little, you're sick to your stomach, you don't
40:24
Speaker 1: feel well, and the first inclination is to you want
40:28
Speaker 1: mamma to make it all better. You want her to
40:31
Speaker 1: soothe you, to help you. Gastroenteritis you can have sometimes
40:34
Speaker 1: you can have a raging fever. Again, you're bleeding off
40:37
Speaker 1: electrolytes there. Certainly you can have horrible diarrhea with this,
40:41
Speaker 1: and again you're losing these essential nutrients out of your
40:45
Speaker 1: body via that way as well. It can lead to vomiting.
40:49
Speaker 1: And all of this is like a perfect storm, and
40:54
Speaker 1: if it goes untreated, it can lead to a terminal event.
40:59
Speaker 1: You're going to die, particularly if you're you're little. You know,
41:02
Speaker 1: you're a little word we're talking about five year old
41:05
Speaker 1: that had this horrible condition that he wasn't receiving any
41:09
Speaker 1: relief for. It's one thing if you have the condition
41:12
Speaker 1: and you're being offered nutrients, you're being offered water that
41:17
Speaker 1: you're going to be able to stave off dehydration, and
41:21
Speaker 1: you know that you're going to get some type of
41:23
Speaker 1: food down you chicken noodle, soup or whatever the case
41:26
Speaker 1: might be, that you can ingest that your body is
41:29
Speaker 1: going to be able to fuel itself off of where
41:31
Speaker 1: you're going to replenish what has been lost at that
41:33
Speaker 1: point in time. That that didn't happen. You know, lots
41:35
Speaker 1: of times will gastro under eyes it's so bad that
41:38
Speaker 1: you have to be taking the hospital and they'll hang
41:40
Speaker 1: an IV on you and they'll be able to, you know,
41:44
Speaker 1: push these things into your system that otherwise you cannot
41:47
Speaker 1: ingest because you feel so bad. He didn't, he didn't
41:51
Speaker 1: have that done for him. He didn't. This little boy,
41:56
Speaker 1: it appears at least, was just allowed to dwindle away
42:04
Speaker 1: in excruciating pain, would no comfort offered whatsoever, I mean whatsoever,
42:11
Speaker 1: and he was just allowed to die. What you're telling me, Joe,
42:18
Speaker 1: is that if this little boy had been given substances
42:21
Speaker 1: to replenish his electrolytes, that he would survive. Yeah, it
42:26
Speaker 1: was that simple. It was literally that simple, and it
42:30
Speaker 1: wouldn't have required very much at all, not a lot
42:35
Speaker 1: of effort. Yet he would have been in discomfort. I mean,
42:37
Speaker 1: all of us are in discomfort when we have the flu.
42:40
Speaker 1: And this is essentially what this is, is the stomach flu.
42:44
Speaker 1: He died as a result of untreated stomach flu is
42:47
Speaker 1: what it comes about. And you know, I said, it's
42:48
Speaker 1: viral gastro enteritis, So you're talking about things like the
42:51
Speaker 1: Nora virus, all these viruses that kind of float around
42:54
Speaker 1: out there and they can bring about this attack on
42:58
Speaker 1: your gut. That's what he was suffering through. And it
43:02
Speaker 1: went untreated, which is the absolute horror of this. It's
43:06
Speaker 1: one thing when somebody succumbs to a natural disease, you know,
43:11
Speaker 1: somebody dies of some horrible disease that we know is
43:14
Speaker 1: going to end in a fatal event that gastro entorietus.
43:18
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? That's the method that was used
43:22
Speaker 1: to end his life. He was essentially this is what
43:26
Speaker 1: we would call probably a passive homicide. You just allow
43:32
Speaker 1: him to die as opposed to taking action that could
43:36
Speaker 1: have rendered him safe. All it would have taken is
43:39
Speaker 1: to go to the grocery store and buy one of
43:42
Speaker 1: these damned sports strengths and just give it to him,
43:45
Speaker 1: administer it to him. But by the time he died,
43:48
Speaker 1: he was so far gone. I don't know that. I
43:51
Speaker 1: don't know that there's any kind of intervention that could
43:53
Speaker 1: have taken as to the reason of why he was
43:56
Speaker 1: not given treatment. We find from the mother's social me
44:00
Speaker 1: she posted several times that she believed that her son
44:06
Speaker 1: was trying to kill her and was possessed by a demon.
44:10
Speaker 1: As police have issued a warrant for the mother's arrest
44:14
Speaker 1: in this little boy Cairo's death and have arrested a
44:18
Speaker 1: friend of hers also, the question still remains is why
44:22
Speaker 1: this little boy had to die. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
44:29
Speaker 1: and this is bodybags