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Meet The Mentors: Neil Zemba · Dental Mentors

• Dental Mentors: One of the best tools that I think you can do as an owner is to map out your case acceptance funnel and really look at all your numbers. I had this like software thing that we built and it mapped out the full case acceptance funnel, but I also started to realize that not all patient acquisition sources were the same. Matter of fact, they were very different. I have made a lot of assumptions. One, that because Google and Meta are fancy trillion dollar companies, that their dashboards are good. For dentistry. They are not. Google My Business, for example. Google My Business has to apply for dentists and book clubs and restaurants and whatever. There's nothing inherently dental specific about Google, and Google will never fully bridge that gap. So whenever you have an agency comes to you and they and they start using Google terms, like we got you all these impressions, we got you all these clicks. I don't care about clicks because that's not qualitative. We got you all even these calls, right? It assumes that every call is worth the same amount of money to the practice. That is absolutely not true. My practices are in southeastern Michigan. My marketing companies would brag to me about getting me calls that were from ⁓ Indiana because they didn't know when I called them out. They had no way of updating their ads to make them any better. They could update the ad copy, they could make the pictures better, they could change the colors, they could do all kinds of stuff that looked like they were busy, unless they have the right tools to do their job. You're driving a car and the windshield is blacked out. Right, I always explain it to dentists. I'm like, imagine you're working inside someone's mouth and you can't see inside the mouth. That's what your modern marketing agency is dealing with right now. So you need a tool called attribution to show you which ads actually make money and which don't. Rise was originally, to my knowledge, we were the first marketing attribution company in dentistry. We launched that about eight na maybe almost nine years ago now and it was very rudimentary. Welcome back to the Dental Mentors Podcast. We're back at our Meet the Mentor series. This is your opportunity to get to meet the mentors where we ⁓ delve into our backgrounds, our passions, our lives, why we're doing what we're doing. And so today, Neil is on the hot seat. So I'm I'm joined with Matt Oranstein once again. Say hi, Matt. Hey everybody. And Neil Zambo. And Neil, you're on the hot seat today. We get to ask you all the questions that we want to, and then the entire audience. gets to hear about Neil, why you do what you do, ⁓ your passion for AI technology and all of the above. So ⁓ without further ado, let's just jump right in. Hey gentlemen. I'm nervous. What's on the docket today? But I'm I'm my seatbelt is, you know, I'm strapped I'm strapped in, I'm locked and loaded. So you have a four. Cat yeah, that's right. But you know, before this we we we talked about ⁓ getting you on you know the couch and just delving into the mind of Neil. But but ⁓ no seriously, I would love for everyone just ⁓ if you don't mind giving us a little bit of background. I think we'll think we've all done that. Give a little bit of background at Neil, where you're from, ⁓ why you got into this, ⁓ you know, your ⁓ just a little bit more about you personally, if you don't mind. Sure. Well, one thing I'll say that I just I think a lot of people think that I'm I'm in I'm in New York right now. You know, right now in my life I spend my time usually between New York and and ⁓ South Florida, Lauderdale, Miami area. I'm I'm a city boy now, but I'm a I'm a country boy at heart. I have a country soul. So I'm from a very small town in Michigan. I just tell people I'm from Ann Arbor because they don't know where Celine is, but like Celine Milan area, if people know where that is. it's pretty, pretty damn rural. And my ⁓ my My family ⁓ is from like rural parts of of Florida and then Missouri. That's how they say if you're from Missouri, it's not Missouri. Missouri. And so that's where I spent a lot of my time ⁓ as a kid was kind of those those areas. ⁓ and just to give people an ⁓ you know, it's always funny too, 'cause like I I have a dream to return to the to the country one day, but ⁓ you know, like my family was sort of parts of my family at least where the the level of rural where there's no addresses and you know the Walmart is like forty minutes away and if you need anything like you kind of like that's where you go and you're driving some kind of like you know ⁓ you know some sort of four by four something to get there ⁓ and that kind of thing. So ⁓ my my grandma in particular my aunt on my dad's side ⁓ I have really fond memories of kind of hanging out. ⁓ at their place in the country and ⁓ they had all these like tram they set up all these trampolines in their yard and you could like bounce from one to another. Those are all all the interesting things you do in the country. ⁓ dirt bike jousting, building ramps and the in the in the, you know, you name it. I learned to drive a stick when I was like I don't know what age, but just a little Honda and you're driving it through the I mean I'm talking about probably probably like maybe like eleven or something. Like literally Like really, because there's no roads, you know. So, ⁓ my favorite illustration is ⁓ I believe it's I believe it's in Arkansas, but my grandma's right on the border, so we'd we'd fly in, ⁓ and then we would drive like across the border and there's a town ⁓ called Flippin'. I believe it's in Arkansas, Flippin', Arkansas, and you drive right past the Flippin' Church of Crest and you're and you're there. So ⁓ So I say that because I I ⁓ you know w when you're when you're from Michigan, ⁓ and you live that close to Ann Arbor, like University of Michigan is kind of a big it's a big thing. People are very passionate about University of Michigan. So when I was a kid I always ⁓ aspired to go there. I never thought I'd get in, but I always aspired to go there. and ⁓ I ended up I ended up ⁓ going there for for architecture, I didn't really know what I what I wanted to do. Growing up, I was like very I my interests are more creative, I would say. I mean I was very into into computers. My dad ⁓ like went to school for computer science. But by the time I got to college, I I was really interested in in in architecture, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do. ⁓ and then when I got to school, I ⁓ became very interested in in technology, I think pretty quickly, like more formally. ⁓ and this was also around the time when, you know, like the social network came out and, you know, there's these images of like this guy called Mark Zuckerberg and he like going into meetings with sandals and a hoodie and ⁓ people, you know, and and and there's kind of a new shake up of corporate culture, let's say. ⁓ but was what was really inspiring to me about that time was just sort of, people building things so quickly with technology. I think that was the first time when I I sort of ⁓ I realized like it just kind of opened my eyes to like what was possible ⁓ using technology. That was around the time when like the I the first iPhone had just come out and, you know, it was all about there's an app for that and things like that. And ⁓ I just have some really fond memories of ⁓ realizing that you could be creative ⁓ with technology, which was sort of a new a new concept to me. And so I to be honest, I I always thought that ⁓ like in high school I was like an oil painter and I and I and I was a and I that was like the thing that I loved to do. I I wasn't super athletic. I was into music. I was in I was much more artsy fartsy. ⁓ and I always thought I was gonna be an artist. I really just thought I'd be like a professional artist. My my aunt was an artist, she was a professor at ⁓ C C S in Detroit. ⁓ and that's honestly what I always thought I would do. ⁓ but then when I kind of realized that, you know, you could you could but I realized I I more so was interested in like creating. ⁓ and I always sort of had a ⁓ I I I I I saw ⁓ the power of of of business and I really enjoyed I enjoyed business and you know if you guys want to talk about it, I can talk about my my dad sort of had an interesting journey that sort of in inspired me and and technology was kind of the vehicle that I found I think when I when I got to college to kinda pursue that. Awesome. ⁓ before we delve back into ⁓ family stuff, can you just let everybody know about your professional journey before ⁓ founding Rise D D S? Sure. ⁓ so when I was in school, ⁓ actually I guess I should probably back up to ⁓ you know, we we didn't grow up with lot of money. ⁓ we grew up in the country in a house that my parents had built. and But when you're in the country, you don't really feel that. You don't really notice it. ⁓ and I just say that because I have some like, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not one to be like super nostalgic necessarily, but you know, ⁓ when as as we've been doing these these talks with each other, it's gotten me thinking, like, you know, w why do we do what we do and w why do we have the whys that we have? You know, because now with Rise and, you know, the corporate culture that we have, ⁓ I'm always challenging our everybody at our company to to talk about their whys. And it really kind of spurred this thing in me where I started having flashbacks to like, well, why th why the heck do I believe what I believe? Kind of a thing. And ⁓ you know, for me, ⁓ I just have all these memories of like my my my parents were awesome. My parents till this to this day are my biggest cheerleaders and I always felt like I I always tell people like I won the the parents lottery. We didn't have a ton of money, but we had a lot of support and my parents never even when I wanted to be an artist, you know, there was never any talk of like starving artist or this kind of thing. My mom wanted me to get a job. I will tell you that. That's a that's a theme in my life, ⁓ to to not pursue entrepreneurship. Because I think my my dad had had tried a lot of different things ⁓ to varying degrees of success, I'll say. ⁓ but, you know, like we moved from ⁓ our place in the country to This little condo in the big the big city, which is the town of Celine, Michigan, which I even know how many people it has, but at that time it was still a very small town. ⁓ and I just remember things like I I say this within the context of like growing a business because there's little things that you pick up on, I think, especially as a kid, that really maybe are quite formative. And so for me it was kind of understanding the power of Hard work, the power of building wealth, the power of that kind of thing. So for me, it honestly kind of makes me think of it, goes I go back to like we were in this ⁓ little little condo, and my brother at that point was was being born, and ⁓ my parents told me I I was kind of upset at that time. It was the first time that I really kind of started to fight with my parents because I really missed our place on in the country. And the the place that we moved into is very small and this and that and ⁓ and my parents told me that it was because we were looking for a a house, you know, and they they told me that between one house to another, you know, you usually get like temporary housing. I didn't know any better. So I was like, okay. So seven years later I was like, hey mom, like did you guys find the house yet? Or like you know like And I say that because I when I really think back to that was the time when I realized what money was, it became conscious in my mind. Number two, I realized that whatever the hell it was, I should probably think about how to how to get it. Just just so I could help my just so I could help my family get a a house. You know what I mean? And so I s I say that because ⁓ that year I was on the I was a runner and my one of my best friends, ⁓ his dad sold candy. And it's kind of funny 'cause he he was actually a dentist. So he was a dentist, but he had this candy warehouse right across the street from his dental practice. And I was like, that's like a racket if I've ever, you hurt him and heal him. So, and he so he I realized that he sold all he had all this candy in this warehouse. And ⁓ he had a bunch of nowin layers that you could get for he would so I started negotiating with him. So I was like, I would buy a pack of 200 now and layers for 14 cents, and then I would sell each pack for $2. And so I went around to in my school, my middle school. And I found all the most popular kids and and I would give them like I would give them each like a whole pack for 14 cents. And I didn't tell them what my margins were because that that wasn't none of their business. But I gave them that and I was like, you sell one of these and you keep a dollar and then you give me a dollar. And I'll know how many you have because if you're not honest with me, then I'm not gonna give you another pack of two hundred. So I was already kind of like, you know, I don't know where that came from, but like, so then they started doing it. And I was a very like ⁓ I don't want to say good kid. I don't think that's fair to say, but I was very, I was very afraid of authority because I know my mom would whoop my ass. And so basically, ⁓ probably this was this probably went on for like six months. And I was making like I was making I was making quite a lot of money. I was making like maybe like hundreds of dollars a week in middle school. ⁓ which I look back at that and I just find that funny. But ⁓ one day the the vice principal comes into my class and he's like, hey, you gotta you gotta come to my office right now. And I was like, I was like freaking out. And so before he even started to interrogate me, I just like I gave him everything, you know? I narked on myself and everybody. And I was like, I'm so sorry, you know, all this stuff. And he he he was pretty upset, which made me even more nervous. And before he goes, All right, listen, like don't, don't like you can't do this under any circumstance. You can't Yeah, Alex can't do it. All the people he's like, we've already talked to them and you c you can't do this. And so I just remember though, as I'm walking out, he goes, By the way, just so you know, you have been making ten times more money from this than all of the vending machines in the whole building combined. But don't don't do it. And then and then as I'm right about to walk out the door, he goes, But if you're gonna do it, do it like after school and like the sports, you know, when sports are going on. So That also like I feel like I learned a lot from that experience too. And so I didn't I didn't do it as much. ⁓ but ⁓ if I had to if I had to think about why I just kind of always think about that that story. ⁓ so I say all that because it also, you know, taught me I think a lot about hard work and obviously entrepreneurship and and these kind of things, but you know, it also kind of put a a a chip on my shoulder. Because was like, all right, well, if I can't do that, like what can I do? So I started to look for more like, you know, going going the going the more like legitimate path. And my mom was a third grade school teacher. So in addition to knowing my theirs at a very young age, ⁓ I also, you know, like academics was very important. And so I think that that's that was the moment where that I really started funneling into academics. And then it kind of occurred to me, like, you know what, maybe I maybe I could get into U of ⁓ And then if I do that, maybe I could. you know, start a company and maybe I could. So by the time I got to ⁓ I didn't think I was gonna get into to to Michigan. ⁓ and and I and I did and I remember that night to this day very vividly. And I just remember like it just was an indescribable feeling of like, all right, now I'm really gonna prove to, you know, I wanna honor my parents. I wanna you know, I love Eric, what you said last time about like purpose. I I really I don't know I've always believed that purpose is a very spiritual concept. I'm a very spiritual person. ⁓ and so I I always looked at it like if I if I can do something, I should do something. I really should. Not for myself, but for not just for myself, but for, you know, the people you love and whatever. So I I I say that because I I even remember in cot like when I first got to college ⁓ that I I I remember how important it felt to do well for for the people around me. You know, a lot of people my family did not go to school. ⁓ and so, you know, I I and I and I and I remember too just like how proud they were and this kind of thing. And ⁓ but I was really young. I mean, I was also super young and I was, you know, very ignorant to a lot of things. I think I started undergrad when I was like I just turned seventeen, which was young. ⁓ And so I felt a lot of like pressure. I was always young for my my grade. And I don't know if that was a good thing or not, to be honest. But it but it but it did make me feel like alien enough to where I wasn't like even I wasn't even necessarily socially that on par with my peers. I was always a bit younger. So I was used to that. So fast forward, what by the time I got to Michigan, ⁓ I already had it in my mind that this might be nuts, but I really want to start a company. I really want to work for myself. ⁓ And so my goal was by the time I graduated school, and I was like dead set on this goal. And look looking back, it was one of the dumbest possible thoughts I think I could have had, but it was such a stupid thought and so out of touch that I think that's actually why it ended up happening. Because it happened. I mean, we s I we they had an incubator there. ⁓ and I was a sophomore, and they said, you know, if you go out, I I think there there's a there's a There's this like algorithm in my mind of like working really hard, having a lot of conviction with like kind of the right amount of ignorance combined, tended to be the the the rocket that fueled at least, you know, the first, you know, several years of my career. So, ⁓ and that's kind of what Silicon Valley is, right? Too. Like now in retrospect, I'm like that's kind of the formula there as well. It doesn't matter really who you are. You have a startup idea, you know. So we gotta there's this incubator there at at Michigan and they were like, Well, if you raise, I think it was like a hundred thousand dollars in financing, we will pay for you on the school's funds to go and we'll fly you back and forth to San Francisco every other week. And I was like, holy sh I was like, that's like in I was like, that's insane. But it was another one of those things I'm like, it's never gonna happen. But let me just let me just work my butt off. And, you know, I was working, I had a I had a not a full time job, but I was working in the summer I worked at a box factory, which I it's like to save up money so that I like I had like the shittiest summer temp jobs, one two of which I got fired for from, like, you know, just to save enough money to because I because I knew that if I had enough money during the year that I could really like apply myself and do some of these programs that I had heard about. So ⁓ I partnered with it with a friend of mine who I thought had a really, a really cool idea. ⁓ and we just went out and like a couple months later we had like raised the money. And so I got into this to this program. ⁓ and I'm going back and forth to San Francisco. And as soon as that happened too, I was like, okay, you can just do stuff. Like you can just you can just do things if you want. And and then when I got to San Francisco, ⁓ I'll never forget, like we got invited to this, ⁓ it was it was I mean, that alone was was incredible. I mean, you the this program was ⁓ you had like the the CEO of Twitter at that time, Dick Costello, who ended up doing the the ⁓ The commencement talk at at Michigan ⁓ when I had graduated, like I saw him give talks and I met Jack Dorsey and just all these incredible things. We would we toured Twilio headquarters and I'm just like taking it all in. It was just so insane to me. And I had this company, you know, and I was a student, and it was just a weird, it was a weird time, but I was so ⁓ appreciative of it. And I and I just remembered like I'm not gonna let this effing go. I'm not gonna let this slip. ⁓ because I've seen so many people struggle so hard. And I don't know how I got in this fast track thing, but now that I'm here, I'm gonna really, really, really ⁓ do it. And and so ⁓ so I get there and one of the ⁓ things that I still really remember to this day is ⁓ The thing that really the thing that really changed my life in in in business, ⁓ and it was really silly. It wasn't anything fancy. We got invited to this, like, they were like, hey, come come check out our headquarters. And there's a bunch of like 20-year-old Silicon Valley guys that had just raised whatever however much money, whatever. And they had this like really crazy loft. It was like an episode of like, it was like an episode of a show. So they go there, there's foosball, there's all this stuff, they're broin It was literally like the movie Social Network. We're hap, we're sitting there, we're having this conversation. And ⁓ I was so used to like the academic way of thinking because that at that point that was doubt right, you get good grades, you do this, you know, you you get an assignment and then you go back and you work on it and you and you do your thing and then and then you come there's always this like I would there was this massive delay of of doing things and information exchange and that's just how I thought life was. So we're in this we're in this ⁓ we're in this building and we're having this conversation and we're at that we're at you know, they're asking questions or whatever, and then they just start like googling stuff. Like right as we're talking and getting the answers, like right then. And that to this day, it's so dumb, but it it blew my mind. That was the first time when I just realized like not only can you just Google stuff, but it it also it applies to business. It applies to anything you do. There's no waiting, you know. ⁓ and now what one of my favorite ⁓ spiritual concepts is in in Zen. They say there's no waiting in Zen. Like when you don't, you know, when it's time to do something, you just there's no you just do it. And it makes me think of that with business. Like there's no waiting in business if you if there if you don't want there to be. There's no waiting in technology. ⁓ if you don't want there to be, it's that instant. ⁓ so ⁓ that company was called Serve, Surf Technology. We pivoted like 15 different times. That's a whole maybe sorry for another day, but it went up, it went down, da-da-da-da-da-da. At one point it was worth like thirty million dollars. At one point it was worth like nothing, and then it came back and then whatever. We ended up ⁓ eventually exiting that company in in twenty fifteen. ⁓ and and and did and did and did pretty well. and ⁓ then I then I moved back to Michigan and ⁓ didn't know what I was gonna do for my next thing and I had two ⁓ friends of mine that said, Hey, you should come ⁓ come be a partner in our dental practice. And I said, That sounds illegal, but ⁓ because I'm not a dentist, how do I own a DLL C? But I'm interested. ⁓ it sounds great. And and ⁓ that was that. Awesome. When you were describing your childhood, you it was reminding me of one of my favorite movies, Napoleon Dynamite. Did you ever see that? I did I saw that in theaters. Yeah, I've I've probably watched that like twenty times. I love that movie. ⁓ well, can you talk to us about ⁓ Rise D D S and you know, where where did that idea come from and then, you know, your journey along the way to to growing it right now and to in my opinion, the the very best digital marketing ⁓ company in the Dental industry. And I I I just want to preface for everybody listening. ⁓ my DSO finally engaged RISE DDS and our new patient acquisition cost was $78. That's the lowest we could get it. And Neil's firm was able to drop it to $28 per patient. Saved us $50 per patient. We have per new patient, and we have 20,000 new patients per year. So It's million dollars of of savings on new patient acquisition costs. So I just want to say I have experienced ⁓ what Rise D D S does firsthand. I also want to say huge thank you to you. Not only for ⁓ you know, keeping the schedules packed, but reducing the cost by so much. So I'd love for you to share with the audience, you know, w how you came up with the idea for Rise and just kind of through, you know, through the growth journey, some of the ups, some of the downs and Where you are right now. Well, I I appreciate that. ⁓ you know, so when I when I came onto our to our to our DSO, we had two locations. I was our COO, which as you know, when you're the COO of a two office practice, that means you're doing light janitorial work. That means you're entering the phones, right? Like you're just doing whatever the hell you need to do. And it reminded me of a startup again. So I I I didn't have any, you know, my my brain was so warped ⁓ from the Silicon Valley way of doing things that, you know, number one, I kind of didn't I didn't understand as I was learning the dental systems. One funny thing too, that I just like one of my my first ⁓ experiences in in dentistry, and a lot of my friend my a lot of my family is is in healthcare. ⁓ and so I I always ⁓ I'll say too that I was I was I was I gravitated towards dentistry because ⁓ I was actually really I was really inspired by dentists. I thought dentists I thought dentists were awesome. I thought dentists were ⁓ it just it just reminded me, I was like, this is one of the last areas in in in the healthcare space where it's the norm to be an o to want to be an owner. Like that's really the top of the mountain. It's not you're not going off and working for some big hospital system or something like that. ⁓ and so but I but I also was a bit self conscious because it was a new world for me. And so I like to I like to add value. I like to help. You know, that's a that's a thing that I think is built deep within me. I like to I like to do stuff. I don't want to come into a situation and not add value. ⁓ And not and not work really hard and not be not be a good partner. So I came in and I was I was kind of self-conscious about it. ⁓ and I was like, man, you know, they've got to have like all these really fancy systems and they gotta be like really advanced with business. Cause that and I was like, first of all, this I was like, these soft these these these you know software tools are like 20 years behind even the healthcare space, and they're like 30 years behind the e-commerce. Cause Serb did a lot of stuff with like we built one of the first cloud-based point of sale systems. ⁓ we built a lot of the retargeting systems that you see today. We built we kind of ⁓ set set the foundation of of a lot of that stuff. ⁓ and so I was like, this is, you know, not to name names of software, but I'm like, you know, some of this stuff looks like a a a robot threw up on a DOS system in like the 80s. Like, but I was like, this is awesome because that means I get to add value. So I think that that's always been something like in retrospect, a a weird opinion that I've held that I think has been beneficial. Like when I see something that's I like it because I because I can I can I know that I can make it better. ⁓ and and I like contributing. So I like feeling that I'm contributing. So w when I first came in, ⁓ and then the other thing had to do with business too. I realized a lot of ⁓ a lot of these practices were not run great. Now I'm not even talking about ours. I'm talking you know, just you know with all due respect, I realized like, wow, there's no like dental MBA. There's no, you know, and University of Michigan, I think to this day is is, I mean, consistently ranked number one or near number one. ⁓ and and since that time I've come on as a ⁓ a guest lecturer and and things like that ⁓ at the school and I and I and I s and I and I you know I've talked to them several times, for example, about like why aren't there more I love U of ⁓ You I think U of M's a great school, but I'm like, why, you know, why wouldn't you have more have more business classes? ⁓ so it's just something I noticed. ⁓ but when I when I came on, we grew up from two to five locations. We ended up exiting, and then we started a second, a second DSO. ⁓ that has n nine locations today. It's called Executive Dental Partners. And as we were building this, two things happened, I would say, that that were the were were that that Rise sort of came out of. The first thing was just to be honest, I got really pissed at marketing vendors because I felt like Their definition of success was very different than mine. Like I was like, I want a steady stream of quality new patients that obviously take the insurances that we have. We we don't take Medicaid. I can't have a bunch of Medicaid patients calling my office. That's what happened. And I realized there was a big disconnect between the tools that they had and what was needed. So that was the first thing. The second, probably even larger thing was what's really cool about being a COO of a DSO and also overseeing marketing. was ⁓ and we just talked to him all on on on on the last show and I completely agree with what he said about one of the best tools that I think you can do as an owner is to map out your case acceptance funnel and really look at all your numbers. So I'm like you Matt, I'm a numbers guy. I'm obsessed with the case acceptance funnel. So ⁓ but what's what so what I built, I I I I tried to take it a couple steps further. I wanted to build my own It was all very selfishly just to build my own thing that I wanted to see for myself and my partners. That's how Rives came to be. We just started building tools that I couldn't find. And I just started developing my own stuff and bring I I worked with my my former CTO and brought him on and was just paying him personally to just build stuff that I wanted to operate our practices. And it just started working. And then I started talking to my friends who were dentists. I'm like, Hey, like I built this thing. You know, do you want it? Like, would you and I just started giving it out. And then eventually we realized like we should spin this into a company. So that's how that's how Rise DDS got started. ⁓ but so I mapped out, I had this like software thing that we built, and it mapped out the full case acceptance funnel. But I also started to realize that not all patient acquisition sources were the same. Matter of fact, they were very different. And also, it reminds me of the book Freak Enomics. If anybody's read Freak Economics, not everything is what it seems. So I thought I mean I made a lot of assumptions. One that Because Google and Meta are fancy trillion dollar companies, that their dashboards are good for dentistry. They are not. They are horrible for dentistry. It's the same reason why ⁓ it's not a perfect metaphor, but like how how ChatGPT is right now, right? It's gotta be, it's a master of everything. It's gotta be vanilla. So Google My Business, for example, Google My Business has to apply for dentists and book clubs and restaurants and whatever. So There's nothing inherently dental specific about Google and Google will never fully bridge that gap. At least they have not even made any attempt to do so at this point. So whenever you have an agency comes to you and they and they start using Google terms, like we got you all these impressions. That's a Google term and a meta term. We got you all these clicks. I don't care about clicks because that's not qualitative. ⁓ we got you all even these calls, right? It assumes that every call is worth the same amount of money to the practice. That is absolutely not true, right? And and and and you could you could take that to as much of an extreme as you want. My practices are in southeastern Michigan. My marketing companies would rag to me about getting me calls that were from ⁓ Indiana because they didn't know. They didn't know. And even when I when I when I called them out, they had no way of updating their ⁓ their their ads to make them any better. They could update the ad copy. They could make the pictures better. They could change the colors. They could do all kinds of stuff that looked like they were busy. And I don't even I'm not even trying to rag on marketing companies. It's it's a tough industry to be in. But I'm just saying that unless they have the right tools to do their job, you're driving a car and the windshield is blacked out. Or I always explain it to dentists. I'm like, imagine you're working inside someone's mouth and you can't see inside the mouth. That's what your modern marketing agency is dealing with right now. So you need a tool called attribution. To show you which ads actually make money and which don't. So that's RISE was originally, to my knowledge, we were the first marketing attribution company in dentistry. We launched that about eight, n maybe almost nine years ago now. And it was very rudimentary. And then we just kept rebuilding the technology. ⁓ so that that's how RISE came to be. You know, I I I think I walk around now saying, what's your attribution model? What's your attribution? It's all because of you, by the way, ⁓ Neil. I gotta tell you at Tower, because I want you to delve into that a little bit more, because at Tower. one of our challenges is that we don't we don't obviously do marketing as a company. So we have our partners and we just found inconsistency. We just couldn't find, you know, and and then clients would turn around and get frustrated ultimately at us because we were finding this inconsistency in the marketplace. And so sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't work. And then somebody would blame an algorithm and and then and so these challenges were constantly happening in the marketplace. You know, we started to work with RISE probably, I don't know, probably going on a year now and it's completely transformed our client journey or you know, what the results are, going back to what Matt said, their acquisition costs. and and you relate a lot of that to attribution. I know there's a lot of people that do not know what that means. Tell them why the Rise ADS platform is getting much better results and what the term attribution actually means, like in layman's terms, so they understand it. Attribution literally just means tracking what works and what doesn't. And specifically, ⁓ you're talking about the difference between quantitative data versus qualitative data. So quantitative data, I always explain this to people. It's like it's all the it's all the dashboards that people like dentists are used to getting in the marketing world. And I always tell people, I'm like, you know how when you talk to your marketing company and and they show you all these charts and everything according to the charts is all great, but you don't feel any freaking difference. And you're like, Why is this not translating? It's because it's all quantitative data. It's Vegas. It's all the lights and girls, girls, girls, and flash, and it doesn't translate to dollars. So in order to translate to dollars, you have to look at qualitative data. Qualitative data is what is the quality of these patients? So if I'm gonna spend $3,000 a month and I give you two options and I go, okay, you could either have ⁓ three thousand ⁓ clicks. with this with this $3,000 a month, or you could get 300 ⁓ qualified patients ⁓ that take your right take the correct insurances ⁓ that are within an actual you know five five ten mile drivable radius of your practice which one do you want? And so a lot of agencies, and by the way, I don't I I always want to I always want to give respect where it's due. Running an agency is a very hard job. It's become a very hard life being a media buyer. ⁓ but the the fact remains that if if if an agency is not using the right attribution tools and they're just using what Google gives you, I don't care how fancy it is. They try they have to overcompensate because they don't have the correct thing. Overcompensating meaning I hear the wildest things now in sales demos where like, you know, do you does your current marketing do geofencing? Okay, geofencing just means you have to put a parameter around where you're showing the ads. You can't run ads without geofencing. That's not something that you should be proud to sell, right? So it it's like these ⁓ you just hear all these things that that that just make no sense, right? So the the the the metrics that matter are how many actual patients are booking in your schedule that are qualified to book. They have the right insurances, they can drive to the practice. And two, how much money are they spending? Now you could look at things like net promoter score, things like that. ⁓ I don't want people to think I'm being too finance guy or two COO mind when I say we're measuring quality by dollars spent. But number one, I think you, I think, I think it's I have still learned to this day it's the best metric to measure patient quality with respect to the health of the practice. Right. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that's the only way, of course, to measure patient experience. Of course not. But the general idea stands that if you're, if you're spending, you sure as heck are measuring ⁓ dollars as a KPI when you're spending it. Right. So why wouldn't you measure it as a KPI when you're making it back? That's my argument. ⁓ just as your as just as a baseline. You can do all kinds of other surveys and things like that to to measure patient experience. But the bottom line is that if patients are having a good experience, they're going to keep coming back. And if and if you are doing a good job ⁓ work, you know, selecting the right patients and marketing towards the right patients, those patients are going to be appropriate patients for your practice and they're going to spend more money. So ⁓ that's kind of the the high level. I mean, I find that fascinating, and that was an ⁓ outstanding explanation. All right, I'm gonna throw another one out there. I would say that almost a hundred percent of people that I know that are highly driven and end up being highly successful in business share one common trait in life, and that was a challenging childhood upbringing or family dynamic environment. ⁓ and sometimes there's an exception, but were there any, you know, challenging things about your home life or childhood that with that you don't need to get into too many like super specifics, but ⁓ is that where your, you know, drive and motivation came from or Was there another another thing that really drives you? Cause you're young and you're very successful. And ⁓ all my interactions with you, you're, you know, absolutely brilliant. Well, you're highly, highly driven. So I'm just curious where where does that come from? You know, it's funny, and and I want to be careful about how I say this, because I I watched how hard my parents worked growing up. And ⁓ I think a lot of people can relate to this, especially in the Midwest. You know, I had such like a almost stereotypical Midwest upbringing. And people are so especially I think the part of the area like the country that I was in, like people are just so like people are just hard workers. It's blue collar as hell. It's it just is what it is and it and it and and that's just part of how you're raised. ⁓ and and the only reason I I say that I wanna be careful is like I I ⁓ I I had the ⁓ I won the parents' lottery. I really do feel that way. And also my grandparents were probably even better, you know, mostly just 'cause they were retired and they had a lot of extra free time too. So I I was really I was really la raised also ⁓ by my by my grandfather, I would say, ⁓ my mom's dad, ⁓ who taught me a lot about business. And ⁓ he was an executive at at Park Davis, which is now Pfizer, and learn learned a lot about that industry, good things, bad things, everything in between and But just one of the most I mean, amazing and he he was always just so proud of like, yeah, I want to make him proud, you know, every time I went out and and and it had nothing to do with money, you know, it had to do with like, ⁓ you know, just really trying to I saw how hard they worked and I once I started to to realize things like leverage in business and what you can do, and I'm like, ⁓ like okay, like you don't have to slave away to make X dollars an hour when you can invest or you can own the asset. You know, the concept of ownership of a business was not something that was ever talked about growing up. And then as soon as I got to college, you know, I'm I'm pretty observant in that way, I would say. Like I just really like I like to like look at people and I'm very interested in how how do people get where they got. And I remember like even when I got into college, like I was obsessed with Wikipedia. Like I would look at I was like, how did ⁓ Matt Damon and Ben Affleck get that movie made? Like really, how did they make Goodwill Hunting? Like, how the hell do you go from and I and I so there's just things where like I'm a little I'm a little obsessive compulsive in that way. And I and I just really want to know. Like I want to know the details about like everything. And that's how I like to that's how I like to do interviews today. Like I sometimes I I might you know, I d I don't want to annoy guests, but I really want to understand. Like how did they get where they got? ⁓ when it comes to my parents, like, you know, I I just rem I just have these memories of like my dad was working so hard and he was ⁓ he had he had ⁓ quit his job, which was sort of his his main you know, he was the breadwinner on our family and my mom was a a a special needs teacher and then she became a third grade ⁓ teacher. ⁓ and so he wasn't he just wasn't home a lot because he wa at least My brother's six years younger, so he what he was much more than. But for me, ⁓ he just he just wasn't home a lot. And I don't and I don't I don't blame him at all for that. I mean, he was working very hard and he was working on his businesses and stuff like that. But I was I was with my mom a lot who was also a full time ⁓ teacher. And then in the summer she would do like these ⁓ teaching camp programs. ⁓ I think it was for like high school or even like college age, like special needs kids. And I just remember like we would be at the park and she would come home and she would have like bruises on her body because she would be like not beat up, but you know, like it was like one teacher with like 30 kids or something like that. ⁓ like special needs kids. And she l who she loved by the way. And I I'll just say too, like, ⁓ my mom's probably the only teacher where like every year my mom's been been retired now for like a hot minute, and every year she gets like Dozens of letters a year from her third grade kids talking about and I just remember like I haven't wrote I've never written for a single teacher from some college professors maybe, but I've never, it's not that I'm not appreciative, but I just like I was like, I didn't, you know, I didn't have that good of an experience. So I was like, I I was like, I just imagined like how good of a teacher she must have been. And sometimes she would take me in her classes with her and stuff. But ⁓ I just remember ⁓ Yeah, there there was definitely some some some times where ⁓ you just saw it. You know, you're a kid and you still you still understand certain concepts and certain things and ⁓ going out and I think originally it was just I wanted to help him out, maybe in some way. But it wasn't about money. ⁓ at least for for a while it was about ⁓ you know, just helping. Thank you. Yeah, one thing that ⁓ the thr I know this is your time, Neil, but the one common denominator and one of the things that the main thing that excited me about coming together with the two of you for dental mentors is all of us genuinely enjoy and have a large a big desire to help other people. And I know the focus of dental mentors is building wealth and dentistry. ⁓ and there's some subsets to that, but ⁓ that's certainly one personality trait that the three of us share. And I as I got to know ⁓ you and Eric better, I was like, wow, these are two phenomenal human beings, really, really smart in in business. And ⁓ you know, have a we we have that common trait, like, hey, our combined knowledge and experience and contacts and ⁓ expertise in this space, if we You know, one plus one plus one is not three in this case. It's like one plus one plus one is it's like a thousand. And I'm not I'm not exaggerating. So it's really cool to be able to share this, ⁓ you know, the the this opportunity of dental mentors ⁓ with both of you, but also I believe that we can, you know, exponentially affect and help and assist so many people to ⁓ achieve ⁓ achieve their ⁓ a potential in this space. So Really excited, you know, to get get to know both of you and and get to work with you. And ⁓ I appreciate very much all that stuff that you shared. I didn't I didn't know most of that. So thank you. Well, the feeling's very mutual. I mean, I'm I'm just so pumped and ⁓ you know, if there's one thing that I've learned too, it's like just shortcuts. I think ment mentorship is about shortcuts and it's about community and it's about ⁓ one of my mentors told me in ⁓ it's very dark, but it's true, which is like entrepreneurship ⁓ a lot of times feels like staring into a black hole while chewing glass. And at the time I was like, ⁓ that's a little that's a little harsh. And then two years in, I'm like, that's you undersold that shit. Do you know like, you know, whatever he's telling you and I think there's like that that there's like that there's that that two to three year period, even in my even in my journey, right? Like when like we exited ⁓ our company and and did pretty well, right? And everybody's telling me like I'm young and I did this and that and da da da da. And I was like, number one, it sure as hell didn't feel like that. Number two, ⁓ I mean, it was very I was very proud, but then it's like you go and do it again and then you're like, ⁓ I'll, you know, I'll just I'll just do that again. And and you like you gotta be a little insane. Like you have to be kind of nuts. And and I didn't have a family at that point. I didn't have a super, super signific, you know, ⁓ a firm significant other, but You know, it was just like and and even I I my mother probably a year and a half ago was the first time that I didn't get like the Christmas time, like, but you should maybe consider getting her whole thing was a job with a pension, right? Like, get a get a pension. I'm like, Mom, that's not really a thing anymore. Like it's not really like she's like, get the pension. So ⁓ Two years ago I talked to my one of the financial advisors that I work with and I was like, Can we just like set up a pen? Can I set up a pension, like my own pension? So I same that I I put one together and then I went to my mom a couple of months later, like, Mom, I have a pension. Like, ⁓ who's it with? And I was like, It's you know, it's Rise's pension fund that we did and you know. ⁓ but, you know, that there's I think there's a I was just having a conversation with a very good friend ⁓ I think like two two weeks ago, and it's like You know, I I I I don't even know that I would r recommend it's I don't for sure not for everybody. Entrepreneurship is not for everybody. That's number one. Number two, I think everyone needs the right vehicle. You have to be self-aware enough or have a mentor to explain to you what the right vehicle is. Cause I see so many people go off in all these directions that it's doesn't really it's not going to make money. It's not the right and who's to say, right? Like because the best entrepreneurs like, no, screw you. I'm going to really do it. But it's like that willpower will fade at some point. ⁓ and then I think there's a two to three year, like, what the hell am I doing? You know, your significant others like, come home, honey, it's late. What are you doing? And you don't know if it's gonna work out, and then you're spending all this life, energy doing this thing, and all your friends are out and they've got the BMW and they're starting to progress in their career, and you're like, ⁓ shit. And but then when it hits, it hits. And then it's and then that's a whole other weird thing to mentally reconcile with because then they get jealous or it's luck or it's da da da da da da and it's a it's a fascinating almost like biblical Greek mythology type thing has revised it. It's just such a wild thing. And so I think to me what I'm what I'm really excited about with this group is just talking about those moments. You know, like I'm broke and it's been four years. What do I do? Or I just raised around at A $60 million valuation and I just made $15 million liquid. What do I do with that? That's equally weird. ⁓ and and the fact that both of those things are possible through entrepreneurship is just such a you got you gotta be a certain kind of person to wanna play that play that game. But if you have the the why and you have if you have the conviction and if you have the right people around you, I absolutely think it is easier than ever to achieve those kinds of outcomes. That's my opinion. I really do. Especially with good people. Love that. Neo, you don't go ahead, Matt. Neo, you I think you said this ⁓ to to me and Eric. I think you said one time you said ⁓ you read or a great quote was like rock bottom and tip top oftentimes feel the same. Was that you who said that? I don't I'll take credit for it 'cause that's a great quote. I don't ⁓ maybe maybe it wasn't you, but anyway like I didn't originate it, but Okay. But you know, I I f I find that that that to be true. Like, you know, because, you know, rock bottom, you're like, ⁓ my God, no self confidence, fear, doubt, shame, ⁓ you know, feeling of lack. And then you know, like you said, we when you yeah, and you hit when then if you do succeed in a big way, those aren't then not then a lot of the emotions are the same, like, you know, like, ⁓ my God, I have a terrible fear that I can't maintain this and I'll crash and burn. Then you got all kinds of pressure because now you have a ton of people working for you and you're supporting their families and people's expectations of you now are man, this you know, you know, Matt can't do anything wrong. Everything he touches, you know, turns to gold. And then you've got all these expectations and pressures from other people. And a lot of times that pressure's worse than being at like rock bottom, you know. I've been at both places a couple of times. And ⁓ but I agree with you, you know, entrepreneurship. ⁓ it's for a small percentage of people and you know, those are the people ⁓ that, you know, are gonna be part of dental mentors and I'm really excited to help people move along their journey, avoid mistakes and get to their destination ⁓ a lot sooner and a lot smoother ⁓ than than they could have done otherwise. So I appreciate your backstory and letting everybody get to know you. You know, I I I I'll say too, like I like What you just said about the when you start managing people, and what's really crazy too about Rise is that I had one ⁓ I I did have one ⁓ before before I joined the DSO, I I had one corporate job and I was there for about a year. I did resign on my own accord, I wasn't fired. I was good at the job, but I really learned I learned corporate. and and and I realized it wasn't for me and I hated it. So and so so but then once the rise got to a certain point and in my mind I'm thinking, okay, this is you know, this is a startup, this is a tech company, but then you get to a certain size where you s like you start building corporate around you. And then you're like, ⁓ I'm well now I'm right back to corporate. ⁓ that's fun. And so but the the the you know, and I don't I don't even know if this is a good form for this, but the the the c the feelings associated, at least for me personally, with being a leader. And if you do well with your business, there's so much that comes with that from a from a leadership expectation perspective with your with your team, with things like this. I think with with my personal journey, it's just something that I just had to reconcile with, which is like for you know, we rise right now, we we have seventy five people. We have I looked at it one time. We have I think two hundred and some children ⁓ that are that our that our team have. ⁓ and I don't have kids yet. You know, we're I'm right kind of at that at that period in my life. And ⁓ but there's so many interesting feelings that you have and just just sort of crucibles that you have to go through when you're when you're building a company and and ⁓ there there are very few people that I think you you you will be able to relate to. ⁓ and so, yeah, like ha having those people in my life that I did, ⁓ and I've had some really bad people too. ⁓ story for another day. I mean, I I had an attorney that ⁓ had five percent, you want an interesting story? So we had they had five percent of a business ⁓ that I had. And ⁓ when I I I went to them and they had written in they they were also our attorney. ⁓ I've learned probably don't don't have your attorney be an equity holding member in your company. I learned that one the hard way. I went I had a meeting with them and he slid a document across the table and he had given himself fifty five percent of the company. And when I talked to him about this, he said, I know every judge in the town, what are you gonna do about it? That's maybe a story for another time. But that there's a lot of and and I who am I supposed to talk to about that? You know? ⁓ if you tell anybody that that that that that that's gonna happen, right? Like those are real things that ha happen, or at least happen to me. ⁓ and I was young, you know? And ⁓ that's ⁓ That's something you gotta deal with. And so, you know, I think that ⁓ if I had had the right people in my life at that time, you know, I think it would have been easier. One of the things you said early on in this podcast, outside the fact that you said the word now and later or the term now later, by the I haven't had nowhere later for like ever. But man, I forgot about now laters and and how great now later were. I think it's because they ripped out every piece of temporary or permanent dental anything. Yeah. But you said pressure early on, like like literally in the first few minutes, you kept saying pressure, pressure, pressure. I felt pressured to to do this for my parents. I probably felt pressure for that. ⁓ I think, you know, for those that don't know you, I think you're you're somebody who's shaping and is going to shape this industry more than most people realize. I think you're you're one of the forces that's creating so many. Not only is Rise DDS, I think, the most superior platform in dentistry. But I also think the things that your your brain is already coming up with and creating and will create, ⁓ they're gonna have a huge impact on this industry. So with all that being said, where's the pressure now? Who where's the pressure? Because I I feel like you've already reached so much, you know, success in so many ways at such a young age. Where's the pressure come from now? You know what's funny about this? Like I I don't think that I don't have a and this may be mental illness. Okay, let's just throw that out there. I don't have I don't think my hunger has subsided much. Now, I wanna I wanna say this. I what I do feel, especially today, like just personally, I am so grateful. Like, I am so grateful. And and I and I haven't always those two things have not always been separate in my mind. ⁓ and so I'm so grateful that I'm like in. The position, like I love going to a conference and just meeting people and da da da da and I remember what it's like to go to a conference and be in a role that I don't want to be in and do a job that I don't want to do. And now that I'm, you know, ⁓ in in in I just feel like I'm in this awesome position and you know, meeting you guys and being able to do stuff together. It's like Matt, what you said. Like I I work seven days a week as well. Now it's like when I say, you know, I might do 15 minutes on a Saturday. to send out some whatever's but it's like but I it's like it's become sort of a video game to me ⁓ in a in a lot of ways but it's like a video game I think I think you know you c you can levy a lot of criticisms ⁓ against capitalism. You could say that, you know, it's it's horrible that ⁓ that you have to make a certain amount of money in order to survive. And I know that personally. I know what that's like. I know what that feels like. And I don't disagree with it by the way. I think we need social safety nets. Let you know, maybe we don't get political today, but you know, I agree with that. But at the same time, ⁓ I I just am so excited about the future and and what can be done ⁓ if you're if you're doing the right thing. And and the last thing I'll say too is that ⁓ the the big thing that I feel like I've learned over the past like couple years that I I can't claim to ⁓ you know, I I can't claim to ⁓ say that that that I think I I'm I'm I'm doing at the level that I'd like to yet. But ⁓ you really said said some things ⁓ last time, Eric, that inspired me about purpose. And what I've realized too is that a a lot of the problems that, you know, we levy against society or, you know, you look at the files that are out right now and everything that's going on. And we learn things about our leaders that that are not good objectively. And you realize, I think as you As you have success in business and you ⁓ and you and you achieve those things, that there's so much atta there's so much else attached to it. And that can be such an amazing thing because you realize if you're wealthy, if you're powerful, ⁓ That's that's that's what you can do at that that's that's ⁓ the manifestation of that at its best. Like if in in other words, I guess what I'm trying to say is like like the government is just people. The private sector is people and people can make decisions with their in their positions, with their wealth, ⁓ to their to their employees that further what they know in their heart that they should do. And I don't even mean to I don't even mean to get that deep today, but You know, it reminds me of that. It's like you it's that's what purpose is. And I hear a lot of stuff, you know, you hear Ted talks and this, and I'm not dogging that, all right. But I think I think there's the conference room type, let's talk about purpose and our why. But then there's also like, damn, like and this is what I think is ⁓ this is gonna sound so geeky, but like this is what I think is cool about dentistry and like a most dentists still like own their own practice, or even if they're involved in a group, they still ⁓ have control over their You it's like a family, right? The office is like it's like it's a reminded of a little submarine, you know, like a military submarine. Everybody's got a role, it's very dialed in. ⁓ and so and and I say all that because it's like, you know, having a lot of success in business, you have a lot of opportunity to to make to make a difference, whatever that means for you. And and I think I think the the cool part about capitalism, we're just talking about Charlie Munger, right? Charlie Munger's like, you know, get really get really rich so you don't to deal with people you don't want to deal with, right? You can you have to do deals you don't want to do. That's been one of the main luxuries that I've come into over the past couple of years is like I don't have to work with people I don't want to work with anymore. I don't have to do deals I wanna want to do anymore. That feels way better than heating and cooling my butt in my car seats. Right. Like whatever luxury you want to talk about, like that's way cooler to me. ⁓ things like that. But also being able to like now what you do, I mean giving and ⁓ you know just being able to to impact ⁓ Not e know, charities, but also just your life, you know, thing things that you believe in. I think it's cool. Neil, thank you for giving us this opportunity in the Meet the Mentor series, because I think you're I just think the world of you, I'm I'm honored to be ⁓ part of Dental Mentors with you. I think you have an amazing story. I think what you're doing for this industry is second to none. And and I just can't thank you enough. Likewise. All right. Everyone have a great day and thanks for coming and meet the mentors. Thanks, guys. If you enjoyed today's video, we'd love to invite you to join the Dental Mentors Facebook group. The group is completely free, but it is private at invite only. The group is for practice owners, dentists, specialists, and dental CEOs. If that's you, we'd love to see you inside. As part of Dental Mentors, you're gonna have direct access to the brightest minds in dentistry and the brightest mentors, and some of the greatest CEOs that have ever worked in the dental space. You're gonna learn all the best practices that you're gonna need. To optimize the profitability of your practices, to properly scale your practices, and to achieve a high value exit. You're also going to learn the closely guarded secrets that the rich and wealthy use for asset protection and the access to private investments and investment strategies that will allow you and your family to create generational wealth. Inside the group, you'll also be able to speak directly with today's guest and all of the guests on the Dental Mentors podcast. You'll be able to ask them questions specific to your practice or group and get the specific answers that you need for that next big breakthrough. Speaking of exclusive, one of the great things we're gonna do at Dental Mentors is our events. In these events, what we've done is bring together the industry's top experts, people that you want to be in a room with. These are very curated exclusive rooms just for the best of the best and the people inside of the dental mentors community. And I promise you, you're not gonna want to miss these events. If you'd like to apply to the group, click the link below and we'll see you inside. And remember, it's completely free to join.