Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (6/6)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (6/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

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  None. Hamster with a blunt penknife
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  for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
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  Welcome back to a hamster. A hamster.
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  A hamster? Yes, with a blunt penknife.
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  I I listened to one of these today where you forgot the
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  title, so I don't feel too bad about that now anyway.
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  You're getting too confident, aren't you?
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  The Doctor cocky is the word. Yeah.
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  The Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
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  My name is Rob Valentine. I'm here with Mr. Joe Ford to
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  discuss Doctor Who and the Abominable Snowman.
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  And before we leap into the episode, we're going to answer a
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  question by the great Toby Haydock, the answer of which we
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  pretended not to know the first time on last episode.
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  But obviously that was just a gag.
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  We. We we didn't want to appear too.
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  You know, we know our stuff, we know our stuff.
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  So, so without having to the need, without having to have
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  checked online or, you know, or visited the Tardis random wiki
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  or anything like that, we we should we should now answer that
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  that excellent question. We will.
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  It was there in the dark recesses of our minds.
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  Yeah, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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  So Joe, what did we already? Know well what I ordered.
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  Oh, hang on a second. Excuse me?
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  See, This is why I've have a glass of water.
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  Cut that bit out. I know.
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  I was just hoping that that's in.
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  So what I already know was that Raubercham was played by David
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  Baron, who is often said to be the playwright Harold Pinter's
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  stage name. Pinter himself has denied the
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  rumour that he ever appeared in The Abominable Snowman.
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  I mean what a question to ask him and that he had relinquished
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  that stage name before this was made.
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  Yeah. Well, so yes, in that case, to
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  answer the question actually what's the, what's the question?
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  What? What?
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  What other Doctor Who stories? The the question was oh God, I'm
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  not prepared. Second please.
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  Surprise me, Sir. So the question actually was,
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  can you name any other Doctor Who stories that Howard Pinter
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  isn't in? Well, all of them, of course.
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  Yes, then yeah. But that was yes, I've, well
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  I've, I've, I've learnt and grown.
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  I can tell you the story that Laurence Olivier isn't in.
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  Oh yeah. Do you not know that story?
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  What story? The Lawrence Olivier was offered
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  the part of the mutant in Revelation of the Daleks.
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  That's the mutant that tussles about with Colin Baker in the In
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  the Snow. Apparently he left an an
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  acceptable amount of time to suggest that he was pondering
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  taking the part and then declined.
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  Yeah. There you go.
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  I mean, you kind of put tossing about with Colin in the snow on
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  his CV craziness. Rob, I hate to do this sort of
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  thing, but I am going to do it. But since we were on TARDIS
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  Wiki, I did in fact crib some facts that I'd like to regale
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  you with now. Go ahead, go ahead.
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  Well, I mean, one is just a very simple one about the ratings
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  because this was one of those very rare Doctor Who's stories
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  that grew in popularity. It started off with 6.3 million,
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  then six, then 7.17.17.2 and 7.4.
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  So it was catching on this. It gained a million from 1:00 to
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  6:00. Nice.
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  I'm not sure what that means, but very often with Doctor Who
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  they they score well for one and they lose.
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  About two. Million for for four, yeah.
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  But somewhat more interesting than just figures is that before
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  choosing the Yeti as a monster, Henry Lincoln considered writing
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  a script about the Loch Ness Monster.
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  So it was always going to be this.
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  Am I using the term correctly? Cryptozoologist.
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  Sort of, yeah. Yeah, some.
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  Yeah, yeah, a Cryptid of some kind or another.
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  I think we, I think I, I mentioned in an earlier episode,
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  it was during the broadcast of this the, the, the famous Aston
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  Gimling Bigfoot film was released.
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  So it's too early for Bigfoot, I think in the, in the general
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  zeitgeist. But so at this point you've got
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  supposedly Yeti Yeti and the Loch Ness Monster are the big
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  ones at this point. I.
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  Mean we still do cover the Loch Ness Monster in the future, and
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  I'll give you a bonus point if you can tell me the two
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  occasions that happened in Doctor Who.
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  Well, as terrible as I got time lash it's.
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  Well done. Yeah, I'm not See, see, that's
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  the thing. I'm not, I don't know, not, not
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  nothing about Doctor Who. It's just, I'm just I, I have, I
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  have big, I have big gaps because I do so, but I'm, I'm
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  doing my, I do my best to fill them.
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  Well, this is the most amount of facts I'm going to throw at you
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  in one go now because tardy wiki then does go on to detail.
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  That's Mervyn Haseman and Henry Lincoln were keen to capture
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  Tibetan culture accurately and so used authentic names and
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  details. Padma Samnavar was an 8th
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  century Buddhist master who was invited to Tibet by its king,
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  Trisson Detzen. Oh sorry, that was his name.
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  Chrysong was an alternative transliteration of Trisson.
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  What's Trisson? Some other dude.
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  Sonseng and Raup Chan were named for were named for other Tibetan
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  monarchs. Reshei Rinshen was a Tibetan
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  imperial preceptor, Sapan was another name for a Buddhist
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  scholar. Both hailed from the 13th
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  century, and Tommy was a 7th century figure traditionally
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  held to be the creator of Tibetan script.
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  Yeah. But is that really?
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  Yeah, Does naming characters in your exotic bitter, you know,
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  your your Doctor Who thing, which is basically inspired by a
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  bunch of cloniest, cloneliest boys, own fiction naming them
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  after historical Tibetan figures actually make it in any way
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  authentic? No, it doesn't.
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  I mean, in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Molaram is named
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  after an Indian poet, but does that make it authentically
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  Indian? No, it doesn't.
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  So it's. Yeah, it's.
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  Pleased to say that Barry Letts agrees with you.
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  As I told you earlier, he did in fact get Terrace Dix to change
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  some of the names of these characters.
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  Yeah, so. But even if even then, this
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  isn't, this has got, this has got nothing to do with Tibet.
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  This is, this is Lost Horizon, you know, this is, this is, this
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  is the Tibet of the Western imagination, you know, Ditto
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  the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, it's, it's magic
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  Asians with magical Buddhism. That's real.
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  So it's, yeah, it's it's that sounds.
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  It's. Amazing to watch though.
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  Well, yeah, but it's but it's a western fantasy of another
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  country. I mean, yeah, as we discussed
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  earlier, I think that they all are though, aren't they?
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  Every time we we head out. Oh yeah.
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  Well, to be, I mean, to be honest, you know, we, we, we
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  just mentioned terror of the Zygons and you know, and that's,
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  you know, I guess to say that to someone, I guess.
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  Please. Yes.
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  OK, Fairpoint. So, you know, to be honest,
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  once, once you there is, there is a certain strand of Doctor
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  Who, you know, once, once you're outside the M25 or, you know,
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  north of Watford, you're basically abroad.
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  So yeah, yeah. But there.
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  But yeah, it is guilty of that exoticism, you know, that is
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  there in, you know, is there an H Rider Haggard, you know, King
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  Solomon's minds, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's
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  again, it's that, it's that, it's that imperial fantasy of,
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  you know, Europeans travelling abroad to mysterious places to
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  discover occult things and have adventures and.
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  Yeah, be be dashing in square Jordan.
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  You know, do it for queen and country.
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  You know it's when that is your when those are your influences
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  you're pulling from you're going to you're going to accidentally
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  pull in all the the bad stuff with it.
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  I. Mean it's worth remembering
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  these stories are very popular as well.
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  Oh that's the best thing. I love the lost world genre.
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  I love boys own adventures, but it's tough because you have to
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  remember where they came from and what they are and what the,
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  what all the implications of them are.
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  So they're very difficult and dangerous things to resuscitate
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  out. Leaving all that really that
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  19th century, that century imperialist baggage behind is
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  difficult to do because it's all in there.
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  And that's the thing I love. I I, you know, I can't help but
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  love that genre, you know? What worries me then is those
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  people that would that can't be asked to do any kind of research
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  into this sort of thing and take this stuff as written.
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  It worries me about history in Doctor Who as well, you know,
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  especially in those early years where it's presented in a way
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  that could feel authentic. Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean. But is a version.
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  Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.
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  Discuss that with the gunfighters, where it would have
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  been nice if it actually told you about what happened at the
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  gunfight. How did you?
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  Describe it if they just had the Ladybird Booker, the gunfight of
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  the OK. Yeah, yeah.
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  Just give us, yeah, just give us, give us the headlines of
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  what's actually happened. We, you know, it's far more
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  reefy and you know it would have educated and entertained, but
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  but you know, with with the Abominable Snowmen, I think just
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  naming characters after figures from Tibetan history does not
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  make an authentic and and does not make the world of the story
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  in any way authentic. It just, you know, it adds
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  colour and it makes it evocative, but it is still Lost
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  World fiction. And it is evocative, I think.
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  Oh yeah, hugely. It's dripping in atmosphere.
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  But but that's part of the reason and that's the other
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  thing. I might be criticizing it, but
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  it's also the reason I picked this story because I wanted
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  because I wanted to kind. Of, you know, as the guide, as
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  the rest. Of us.
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  But that's the point. It's hugely seductive, you know,
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  the same, it's the same. It's the same impulse that sends
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  loads of, you know, guys to Bhutan looking for a for a Yeti
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  they'll never find. But you know, it, it's the
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  uncomfortable thing, how much, how much of this, you know, of
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  my love of boys own adventure comes from my culture and what
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  does it and what you know. And yeah, it's, there's some,
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  there's a lot that there are many things under that rock
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  that, you know, I don't necessarily want to look at, but
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  you kind of have to because you're, you know, if you're, if
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  you're, if you're grown up, you can't afford to not question
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  you, your prejudices, but. Yeah, well, most people can just
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  watch this stuff and recognize that and just go.
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  That was a fun bit, I tell you. But we've got to talk about it
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  for three hours. So, you know, that's why we're
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  unpicking this a little bit. Exactly.
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  Yeah. I've got one last question then
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  before we go in six and that is could this be a very tight?
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  Four. Yes.
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  Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, if you just have Chris on
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  and Travers not be so obtuse for two episodes.
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  A little less running around on the hills in those middle
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  episodes. You could probably take out the
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  hypnotism. And there's your 4.
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  Yeah. So, yeah.
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  So yeah, you could. This could be 4 parted quite
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  easily I think. Although don't let Gary Russell
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  hear you say that, because he thinks this is one of the very
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  few Doctor Who stories that could only be told in six
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  episodes. Yeah, well, fair enough.
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  I'm not right. I just think, yeah.
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  But I'm, you know, I haven't thought about this at all.
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  But then again, as I always say, yeah, these aren't designed to
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  be, you know, this it's designed to be 2024 minutes of TV to
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  catch once a week. You know what?
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  Why? Why visit?
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  You know to to bet of the mind four times when you can visit at
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  six. Well, let's go and watch 24
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  minutes of television then, shall we?
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  Let's do that. Although people are getting
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  about four hours worth of podcasting out of us, I hope
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  they're grateful. Count as in. 54321.
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  I've got a rattle through all these questions now in episode
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  six. Well.
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  Get on with it. Oh, Toby asked one about about
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  the Oh, actually, yeah. No, no, I do want to ask this.
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  It's about the music again. So it's an initial question
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  you've already been asked. Do you think this story would
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  benefit from an incidental music score?
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  Yeah, I do. I do.
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  If so, and if you were directing it, what sort of score would you
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  ask for? Well, having just talked about
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  the dangers of exoticism, I'd have gone, I'd have had.
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  I'd definitely had some Tibetan bells in there.
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  I mean, the Macguffin is a bell. So I'd have, I'd have some,
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  yeah, I'd, I'd, I'd have lent right into that exoticism I've
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  been saying is a, is a, is a dangerous thing.
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  I'd have, you know, yes, I have a bit of kind of hammer style
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  bombast here and there, but just some just some of you know, just
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  that that cold wind through hanging, hanging bells of
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  different sizes to add to help that kind of this is space
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  Buddhism really good in this to to help that kind of Mystic E
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  vibe, which is which is all the stuff I said this kind of
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  distasteful about the genre in general, you know, exoticising
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  foreign countries. Now you're saying we need to
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  lead into it a bit. Well.
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  Yeah, yeah. I, I, I would, yeah, absolutely.
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  You know, I would, I would absolutely use the music to
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  exoticise this even more and that and yeah.
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  They'll be coming for you, Rob. They'll be coming for you.
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  Although I will say, I will say I do think the pace of this is
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  too slow and having recently watched season 17 for a hamster
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  episode, I was made very aware because the pedestrian, sorry,
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  the direction is very pedestrian in season 17 and the music
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  brings so much pace to the stories, like so much.
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  Energy Yeah yeah actually that's the you know is there anything
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  wrong with this that couldn't be with with a bit of incidental
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  music added it will pretty sort sort the pace right out to be
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  honest. I mean you watch certain things
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  that with the music stripped away it seems long so maybe I
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  think maybe just have it as a six parter just just puts on
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  some music well well judged incidentals but yeah I would I'd
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  I'd go for horror. I'd go for a little bit of
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  hammerness. James Bernard.
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  Bernard Bernard, James Bernard. Anyway, yeah, and but with a
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  with a few Tibetan in inverted commas touches to to help the
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  atmosphere. Your answer?
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  I would like to just comment very quickly that the I saw a
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  photograph of Wolfie Morris playing Pamela Samlaba in
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  between episodes and he looked absolutely chilling.
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  Scarier in fact, than the animation, which is doing this
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  sort of weird distorted face look.
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  I'm not sure what's going on with it.
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  And it's it's good. It's a good look it looks like.
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  Animation. It's sort of like a desiccated
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  Egyptian mummy almost. He looks like he's been, he's
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  been embalmed or something. He's like a living corpse.
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  Whereas Wolfie Morris in the picture, I saw he with just a
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  massive grin on his face. It's sort of Joker like grin.
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  It's terrible. Yeah, you, you get a lot of that
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  in the Loose Cannon one. You get to see more of him there
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  and it's, yeah, it's it's not, it's not pretty.
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  What it does actually feel like things are moving a bit now as
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  well, though. There's a lot happening on the
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  screen. Chris Hong is, I think he's also
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  expire. Chris Hong's been stabbed in the
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  back. Yes.
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  So yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Things things are moving now.
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  I I do think all those slow scenes you mentioned earlier
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  would would have benefited from incidental music.
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  I think that's possibly all they needed to kind of, you know,
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  just. Gentle it doesn't have it
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  doesn't have to sort of overpower it.
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  No, no, I got gentle just to kind of help with the help with
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  that, that mysticism. I'm talking more second Akalola,
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  Les Murray Gold, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:52
  OK, well let's go back to the questions for a second then
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  Lovely Rod has another question with regards to Padma Satnava.
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  Do you get a greater sense of tragedy or menace?
• 18:05
  And how well are these two emotions created within the
• 18:08
  audience? It's difficult because you don't
• 18:15
  meet him before you know you, you only you meet him when he's
• 18:20
  sort of culpable, you know? Although there is a suggestion,
• 18:25
  isn't it, that he and the Doctor were good?
• 18:27
  He calls the Doctor my good friend.
• 18:29
  Yeah. So the suggestion is that he's
• 18:31
  a, you know, a bit like the the Abbot from Planet of Spiders,
• 18:37
  you know, a very amiable fellow. Yeah, well, I suppose he spends
• 18:43
  most of it being a a creepy old menace you can't trust, really.
• 18:49
  But I do think like, because there are things where he's sort
• 18:53
  of torn between playing the great intelligence and himself.
• 18:59
  Yeah. You know, and, and the sort of
• 19:01
  the tone and the pace of how he's talking changes.
• 19:04
  So you can sort of clearly and he sounds sort of tortured when
• 19:08
  he's himself. So there is a sense of tragedy
• 19:10
  there. It's all fighting, yeah.
• 19:14
  Yeah, I suppose it didn't impress, impress upon me,
• 19:17
  impress on me that hugely. So yeah, I'm just.
• 19:21
  Well, no, no. And look at what we were talking
• 19:22
  about. Marcus Salman, Marcus Carmen in
• 19:25
  Pyramids and Mars on that scene where he recognises Lawrence,
• 19:28
  you know that did imprint on you.
• 19:30
  Yeah, but that. But that's that's, that's,
• 19:33
  that's played as pure tragedy for both of them, yeah.
• 19:40
  OK, so let's go to Psy again. I'm not entirely sure what he
• 19:45
  means by this question, so perhaps you wouldn't lie on me.
• 19:49
  Let's, we can, let's, let's tiptoe through the tulips and.
• 19:52
  It's a very simple question. I love.
• 19:54
  I love asking you these because the look on your face when
• 19:57
  you're thinking about them is priceless.
• 19:59
  Oh God. Don't worry, only I can see.
• 20:03
  OK, fair enough. All all they can see is silence.
• 20:06
  So is the Great Intelligence really that clever?
• 20:10
  I have no idea what he means by that.
• 20:18
  Well, it's a bit of a making robot yetis.
• 20:27
  It's not what I it's not what I do necessarily, Yeah.
• 20:35
  It's almost as if he knows he's a villain in a Doctor Who story,
• 20:38
  isn't it? Yeah, remind me, pretend there's
• 20:40
  been like six weeks since I last watched this.
• 20:43
  Yeah, for argument's sake, Yeah. What's the Great Intelligence
• 20:46
  want to do again? No, nobody knows.
• 20:48
  That's like what we've been pondering.
• 20:51
  Yeah. And then Stephen Moffett came
• 20:52
  and brought him back, and still there was no motive.
• 20:58
  Yeah, it's been the Dick. Really.
• 20:59
  Yeah. What's he trying to achieve in
• 21:01
  the Web of Fear? Maybe who calls him the Great
• 21:05
  Intelligence? I think it's the doctor.
• 21:08
  All right. Does he call himself the Great
• 21:10
  Intelligence? Because he could just be like a
• 21:11
  victim of the Dunning Kruger effect?
• 21:13
  He might, you know. Oh, what's that?
• 21:16
  Is that was that way? You know you're not.
• 21:19
  You're not intelligent enough to know you're not intelligent.
• 21:22
  Actually, that would be. That would be quite fun,
• 21:24
  actually. For.
• 21:25
  Yeah, for the for the great intelligence I.
• 21:28
  Don't think they're thinking on that level, you know?
• 21:31
  Yeah. Well, the side, the side clearly
• 21:33
  is, you know, I like, I like, I like the question.
• 21:36
  I haven't got a very good answer for it.
• 21:38
  I think in the web affair, he's trying to become corporeal,
• 21:42
  isn't he? He's trying to.
• 21:46
  Yeah, Doesn't he also is, is there a in, in the web of fear?
• 21:49
  Is there not a degree of revenge as well?
• 21:51
  By that point, he, yeah, he's he.
• 21:53
  Doesn't at least, at least there's a sound motive there as
• 21:56
  to why he's Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:58
  Doing what he's doing. And although I seem to recall in
• 22:01
  that story, the doctor just puts a helmet on and and just thinks
• 22:06
  of your thoughts and that's the end of the great intelligence.
• 22:08
  So I don't think he really is very clever.
• 22:11
  Yeah, yeah. I do like the fact that when
• 22:15
  Steven Moffett brought him back, he's doing that thing again, of
• 22:20
  taking the initial idea and figuring how do we get there.
• 22:23
  So he does the snowman, doesn't he?
• 22:24
  And at the end of the snowman, the intelligence winds up
• 22:28
  escaping into the underground system.
• 22:31
  And that's why the intelligence is there in the web of fear.
• 22:34
  Yes, yes, yeah. Anyway, what's going here?
• 22:41
  The doctor has a plan now, I think is this where he, you
• 22:47
  know, everyone's figured out that what are my notes?
• 22:55
  Everybody agrees to do what the doctor says, but Travers Trevor
• 22:58
  plans to go alone and and attack the thing in The Cave.
• 23:02
  Which he's doing right this second.
• 23:04
  Well, times. Yes.
• 23:06
  Oh, well done. Well done mate.
• 23:08
  And again, the Yeti robots were constructed over 200 years ago.
• 23:13
  Did they say that? Well, I guess they do.
• 23:16
  So we wrote it. Down.
• 23:17
  So I guess, I guess so, yeah, yeah, Super normal powers are
• 23:21
  mentioned. OK, Yeah.
• 23:25
  And that's, yeah, we, yeah, I think everyone's agreed to do.
• 23:28
  Everyone. Everyone has finally agreed to
• 23:30
  get on board with the doctor. I was just about to say that.
• 23:34
  Well, it's falling into that pattern, isn't it?
• 23:35
  Now everybody's on the same page and they're all working together
• 23:39
  to defeat the. Yeah, apart from here.
• 23:41
  But then Travers decides to do his own thing, so yeah.
• 23:45
  What's that like noble self sacrifice?
• 23:49
  Does that. Ever really work in a story?
• 23:51
  Can I ask you that as a writer? Does that ever really work in a
• 23:54
  story? The noble self sacrifice.
• 23:56
  I always find it very lame. I've done it a couple of times I
• 24:00
  think. Those were the those were the
• 24:01
  few occasions it wasn't lame. Oh.
• 24:03
  No, I I know I like good noble self sacrifice.
• 24:09
  Except you. You, you can't, I think you've
• 24:15
  got to you've got to build it in from the beginning.
• 24:17
  That character would do it and why they'd do it, but.
• 24:20
  Also labour the point. No, but also also don't use it
• 24:25
  as a as a way of the doctor avoiding doing something
• 24:29
  difficult. That's, that's my bug Bear is,
• 24:31
  you know, the doctor has to do something challenging and then
• 24:34
  someone just steps in and does it for them.
• 24:36
  The two things we've both mentioned there, me saying don't
• 24:39
  make it obvious so you know they're going to do it, and you
• 24:42
  saying stopping both of them occur in the Timeless Children
• 24:46
  where Coach Chalmers, space name, who's been saying
• 24:49
  throughout the entire episode, I'm an old man, it's the end of
• 24:52
  my life. I'd like to go out in a blaze of
• 24:54
  all these sort of lines. OK, right.
• 24:56
  So we know where this is going. And then the Doctor has to
• 24:58
  destroy Gallifrey and no, let me do it.
• 25:01
  I'll sacrifice myself for you. It's both of them.
• 25:05
  Yeah, but there are there are times you can do it really well.
• 25:07
  I mean, I love it in the in the Brendan phrase of the Mummy,
• 25:11
  Winston, God, Winston Havelock, This the fat old pilot.
• 25:16
  Yeah, I saw, I saw it with the Prince Charles the other week as
• 25:18
  a it was a 25 year old Prince, so it looked like an old film.
• 25:21
  But yeah, it's it. It.
• 25:25
  Was brilliant. Yeah just bolted 1K9 and school
• 25:28
  reunion that broke my home. That's one.
• 25:32
  Yeah. Well, exactly.
• 25:32
  You know, it can in like anything, it can be done well or
• 25:36
  and that's it. Anyway, next question because
• 25:40
  we've got a lot of these. Oh, yeah, sorry.
• 25:42
  Hang on, what? Did you not have any more notes?
• 25:44
  Was that the end of your notes, Sir?
• 25:47
  That's my notes up to the point we've got to.
• 25:49
  I don't want. To Fair enough, fair enough.
• 25:52
  Yeah, don't want to shoot a load.
• 25:53
  Fraser asks how much of a loss to the world of Doctor Who were
• 25:57
  Hazman and Lincoln? So they wrote The Abominable
• 25:59
  Snowman, they wrote Web Affair, and they wrote The Dominators.
• 26:05
  I mean, I think they're good writers.
• 26:06
  Yeah. They were going to write the
• 26:10
  layers of the Mccrimmon that was going to write out Jamie.
• 26:13
  They were going to kill off Jamie in the season six.
• 26:16
  But due to the fights about over the quarks and potentially
• 26:22
  marketing the quarks, they declared they would never, ever
• 26:25
  work for the BBC again. So we never got any more.
• 26:28
  So if so, if Doctor Who did get another script out of them, it
• 26:31
  would have lost Jamie. Yes.
• 26:35
  So well. Well, but that's what they were
• 26:37
  asked to write. That it's not.
• 26:38
  It's like that burning desire that they had.
• 26:41
  Yeah, I suppose then again, you know, Jamie might have been once
• 26:45
  he got to production, he might, I don't know the that's that's
• 26:48
  one of those what ifs that you know who, who can say we have,
• 26:52
  here's the thing, we have what we have and yeah, and it's
• 26:59
  pretty good. I'll take that as an answer.
• 27:04
  Yeah. Well, I haven't got anything
• 27:07
  much more to contribute on that one, to be honest.
• 27:09
  Well, that's a toughy, because what can you say about what
• 27:12
  someone could potentially write? Yeah, they could.
• 27:15
  They could have turned it to shit.
• 27:16
  They could have killed. No, they could have.
• 27:18
  Yeah. Rob, it is worth mentioning the
• 27:20
  the Dominators, regardless of what Fraser thinks of it, is
• 27:23
  considered the nadir of the era. So, and that was the last.
• 27:27
  Script they produced soon, yeah. Yeah.
• 27:29
  I'd be really interested to see what you think of that one.
• 27:32
  It's a bit low, it is a bit dull, so forgive me because I've
• 27:38
  completely forgotten. How do they defeat the Great
• 27:40
  intelligence in this? Oh, here's my note.
• 27:42
  Yeah, the doctor's great plan is to smash the controls and I've
• 27:46
  put that's up. Well, that's up there with
• 27:49
  Ghostbusters plan to get her. Yeah.
• 27:52
  So it's. Yeah.
• 27:54
  So smash the controls. And that's the thing.
• 27:56
  So there's no good Buddhism in this to defeat the the the evil
• 28:05
  Buddhist esque thing. Do you know what I mean?
• 28:10
  And now there's a knife floating about, threatening.
• 28:12
  Sure. Now, surely there is something
• 28:14
  they could have done that's a bit more clever, a bit more
• 28:17
  creative than just fucking the controls.
• 28:22
  Well, because, well, I mean the the Yetis are robots.
• 28:25
  So the greatest, the greatest intelligence is a technological
• 28:32
  being. Even if he's incorporeal, he's
• 28:35
  he's building robots and command centres.
• 28:39
  But it wasn't a piece of technology that brought him to
• 28:42
  Earth, was it? It was.
• 28:43
  No, no, it was, it was the, IT was the the Buddhist magic mind
• 28:47
  power. Couldn't have been a battle of
• 28:50
  werewolves. The Doctor heading up into the
• 28:52
  astral plane and shutting the door.
• 28:57
  Yeah, well you you mean essentially using good spaced
• 29:00
  Buddhism to defeat the bad space Buddhism?
• 29:03
  Here you go. Yeah.
• 29:04
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.
• 29:05
  It could have been, could have been.
• 29:06
  Yeah, it's yeah. You know, I've got to be honest,
• 29:09
  so many Doctor Who stories, especially classic Doctor Who
• 29:12
  stories, I do have pretty lame endings, don't they?
• 29:17
  Oh, I can assure you that none of this was occurring in the
• 29:19
  original. This is floating into the air
• 29:23
  like that. Yeah, this is possibly where
• 29:26
  you, you, you, the animation might be, I haven't seen this
• 29:28
  before. You see, I've, I've seen the
• 29:31
  loose cannon reconstruction. This might be this is might be
• 29:34
  going a little bit too far into the realms of invention perhaps.
• 29:40
  I believe Ian Levine was apoplectic by this point.
• 29:44
  Look out the window I. Don't know though.
• 29:46
  Like giving it giving it a sense of climax, you know?
• 29:51
  I don't object. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:55
  No, I think, Oh no, it's it's Jamie and Tommy that are
• 29:58
  smashing the controls. Yeah, so destroy the spheres,
• 30:03
  the Yetis collapse. I'm guessing that's what comes
• 30:05
  next. And then does Papa has, I can't
• 30:12
  say his name now. Padders tries to implore to the
• 30:16
  doctor, doesn't he? Old friend, you know, but it's
• 30:18
  actually the great intelligence, maybe.
• 30:22
  So maybe there's a personal stake in the climax.
• 30:25
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:26
  That he's going to lose his old friend.
• 30:28
  I don't even think that's played out particularly sort of
• 30:31
  tragically, though. No, I'm not.
• 30:34
  I do. I must confess.
• 30:36
  Oh, I, I, I like the first half of this better than the
• 30:39
  second-half. Yeah, you did say that in the
• 30:41
  first half. Oh, did I?
• 30:43
  OK? Yeah.
• 30:44
  Yeah, you're not. Contradicting anything you said
• 30:46
  earlier. Oh, no.
• 30:47
  Fair enough. Yeah, yeah.
• 30:49
  And again, it's I think you're right, but then I think I prefer
• 30:51
  the set up to most Doctor Who stories than I do to their
• 30:54
  conclusions. Yeah, it it's the the discovery
• 30:57
  phase of the story where, you know, you you enter this world,
• 31:01
  you know, and that's that's kind of that's kind of the stuff I in
• 31:07
  this kind of story, which is lost one genre.
• 31:10
  That's that tends to be the best bit, you know?
• 31:13
  I'm, I'm wondering if for once, because this is supposed to be
• 31:17
  an old friend of the Doctors, you know, like the cliche in
• 31:20
  season 5 is he just goes, doesn't he?
• 31:22
  He doesn't stick around to see how things are going to be
• 31:25
  tidied up or anything like that. He's just off into the TARDIS
• 31:28
  and gone, which is what makes Fear from the Deep hit so much,
• 31:32
  whether he has to stay to see Victoria often.
• 31:34
  So there's a lovely dinner scene and all of that.
• 31:37
  But because his old friends just died at the end of this, maybe
• 31:40
  there should have been something, you know?
• 31:45
  Well, I do love the whole idea of the Doctor returning with the
• 31:48
  Ganter Bell. It's such a good thing.
• 31:51
  It's like, well, yeah, there there should be.
• 31:53
  It's a nice, it's such a nice in to a story returning something.
• 31:59
  Oh look, it's stopping. It's stopping bullets in the
• 32:02
  air. That didn't happen in the
• 32:04
  original either. Yeah, it's sort of gone a bit
• 32:09
  Matrix now, isn't it? Yeah, do you know what I think?
• 32:13
  So I watched The Web of Fear. I've seen the Web of Fear a lot.
• 32:16
  But you know, I just think I've seen some bits of Doctor Who
• 32:19
  loads and I sometimes haven't seen it at all.
• 32:20
  But I think I've been misremembering the end of this
• 32:23
  and the Web of Fear. The Web of Fear is one of the
• 32:25
  big the big control room. Isn't it?
• 32:27
  Yeah. The doctor puts the the hat the
• 32:29
  hat on. Yeah.
• 32:31
  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the goodbye old friend
• 32:36
  bit, isn't it? I'm not sure it lands though.
• 32:41
  Yeah. And I think you're right, it's
• 32:43
  because we haven't seen that relationship before.
• 32:47
  If it was somebody we knew from an old story, maybe.
• 32:52
  Or, or you'd seen more of it in this you, you had more of that.
• 32:54
  You know, the reunion at the beginning did.
• 32:57
  You see that yes, he fall down. Yeah, yeah, that.
• 33:01
  Was fun I think. I I doubt they did that in on
• 33:04
  Snowden. Yeah, whatever it was.
• 33:06
  It got a laugh at the PFI though, I remember that.
• 33:09
  Travers is a right hulking brute in this animation, isn't it?
• 33:14
  He's he's, he's very, very tall. Oh.
• 33:18
  Yeah, crumbled to dust it. Actually does look a little bit
• 33:22
  like the effect in Time National where they will turn to
• 33:24
  skeletons and just as amusing. Well, that's that.
• 33:32
  The doctor says we're off. Yeah, we won't be seeing the
• 33:35
  Great Intelligence again. Or my old friend Padma.
• 33:38
  Sam Nova. Let's go.
• 33:39
  Never mind. Oh, dear.
• 33:44
  Oh dear. Can I ask you another sort of
• 33:47
  writerly question please? Yeah, sure, don't.
• 33:50
  Don't expect a good answer, but carry on.
• 33:52
  I do expect a good answer because I've heard enough of
• 33:54
  your stuff to know you can answer this question.
• 33:57
  And that is, well, what's the secret to ending a Doctor Who
• 34:02
  story? And you've written enough
• 34:03
  scripts now. Like what?
• 34:05
  How do you How do you do it satisfyingly?
• 34:09
  But just take the word doctor, whoever, doctor that question.
• 34:13
  How do you end the story Satisfyingly.
• 34:16
  Oh, no. Yeah, it's because Doctor Who
• 34:17
  has got no monopoly on any. Yeah, there's no.
• 34:21
  You sucky git. Well, no, it's true.
• 34:24
  It's true. You know, it's just, you know,
• 34:25
  it's just stories. Yeah.
• 34:27
  OK. All right.
• 34:28
  I'm very limited in what I watch.
• 34:30
  OK. You, you, you resolve, you
• 34:32
  resolve, you resolve the problems you and the situations
• 34:37
  you set up, what's one way or another.
• 34:41
  And depending on how you do it, you that conveys different
• 34:44
  meanings and that's it. Endings have got there are
• 34:47
  compulsory things endings have to do and also genre, you know,
• 34:51
  depending on the genre you're in, there are compulsory things
• 34:53
  they have to do. And in this one, for example,
• 34:56
  this is about a Yeti hunter who's who's he's come to Tibet
• 34:59
  to find Yeti and all we've found with damn robots so.
• 35:03
  He finds a real Yeti. Yeah, it's the real yet turning
• 35:08
  up, you could argue is a compulsory moment or you could
• 35:12
  say not finding the Yeti is a compulsory moment.
• 35:14
  You know, he could kind of, you know, it could be like, oh, I
• 35:16
  didn't find the Yeti, but maybe they're still out there but in
• 35:19
  but in this genre. You love this ending.
• 35:21
  The real. Yeah, because he because in this
• 35:23
  genre. Oh, look at this one.
• 35:26
  Totally different. It looks like Oh my God Monkey
• 35:31
  from the original Star Trek. Yeah, but it's essentially, but
• 35:35
  it's essentially it's that's for Nigel Neil.
• 35:37
  Yeah, I've never seen this before.
• 35:39
  Oh, is he? Yeah, of course it.
• 35:40
  Is it's it's the big white big for Harry, the Harriet
• 35:43
  Henderson. Well, there you go.
• 35:46
  In the in the telesnap version, the the the wild Yeti looks
• 35:51
  exact. Why doesn't it look like the
• 35:52
  other Yeti? Why would why would the Great
• 35:56
  Intelligence? Thing great intelligence got it
• 36:00
  wrong. Yeah.
• 36:02
  He just thought they looked like big teddy bears.
• 36:04
  Yeah. So I couldn't tell.
• 36:08
  Yeah, OK. Yeah.
• 36:09
  So in the animated version I, I I.
• 36:13
  The animated version leaves you with more questions than.
• 36:15
  Answers Yeah, yeah. Why does the ethy look so
• 36:18
  different? Or is it his hand in a twitch?
• 36:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:22
  Yeah, yeah. A sequel's coming, kids.
• 36:26
  You'd leave them, Yes, Yeah, yeah.
• 36:29
  In fact, they knew a sequel was coming because they recorded
• 36:31
  that bit with Patrick Trowan, didn't they?
• 36:33
  Saying now, now, if you're frightened, don't forget you can
• 36:37
  hold your mummy's and daddy's hands because they might be
• 36:39
  scared. It's great.
• 36:40
  I I just have one note BNT they see a real Yeti, a peaceful,
• 36:45
  benign creature? Is Travis going to shoot the
• 36:48
  poor thing? Probably.
• 36:51
  Yeah, but hang on. He comes back from in the hang
• 36:56
  on in the web of fear. Correct me if I'm.
• 36:58
  Wrong. He takes one of the robots back
• 37:00
  with him. Oh.
• 37:00
  Right. Yeah, yeah, so he does.
• 37:02
  So he actually doesn't come back with yeah to yeah, exactly.
• 37:07
  So what happens? What becomes of that real Yeti
• 37:09
  they spot at the end? They're probably very good at
• 37:12
  sort of being elusive. Yeah, yeah, that's the point.
• 37:15
  There's there's there's room for a Doctor Who story with an
• 37:17
  actual Yeti in still. Yeah, anyway.
• 37:21
  Well, get right in then Well. We'll see, We'll see.
• 37:23
  We'll see. I'll make some discreet
• 37:28
  enquiries about licence for Yetis and see what happens.
• 37:32
  But. You heard of here here, folks?
• 37:34
  You never know. Yeah.
• 37:36
  Well, look, right, I, I think we covered all of the questions
• 37:39
  there and we've certainly gone through all of your notes.
• 37:43
  You now have the impossible task of summarising the last 3 1/2
• 37:51
  hours of Coventry into three fabulous reasons as to why you
• 37:56
  would recommend the Abominable Snowman.
• 37:59
  I know you can do this very easily.
• 38:01
  Off you go. Sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm obviously
• 38:05
  in a, in a certain kind of mood. But one, well, one reason to
• 38:10
  watch Doctor Who, the Abominable Stoneman is because Nigel Neil's
• 38:15
  The Abomble Stoneman. It's a little hard to come by.
• 38:18
  No, no, it's, it's good reason. It's.
• 38:22
  It's. No, to be less facetious, it's
• 38:24
  it's a it's a good fun slice of crypto zoological based under
• 38:30
  CG. Goodness, there you go.
• 38:34
  Oh, sorry, I thought you was going to be.
• 38:35
  Longer I was eating some cheese so I thought we I did one.
• 38:38
  Then you did one, then you go. And yeah, I know that's how it
• 38:41
  works. You've been listening correctly.
• 38:44
  My first reason would be how wonderful it is that they took a
• 38:50
  trip away from London and one of the films out in Snowdon and
• 38:55
  what we can see of the location work.
• 38:57
  Is it beautiful? It's a shame there's no snow,
• 39:01
  but I think it does it's job to sort of create that desolate
• 39:05
  landscape because I don't know if you've been to that part of
• 39:08
  the world, but it is pretty desolate.
• 39:10
  No, no, the location works great and it is a real shame.
• 39:14
  We're lucky to have it animated, but it's a shame those middle
• 39:17
  episodes don't exist because clearly a lot of money was spent
• 39:20
  there and I wish we could see more of it.
• 39:22
  I'm. Trying to think the second
• 39:26
  reason that isn't a repeated My first reason why would I
• 39:36
  recommend you? You chose this, remember?
• 39:39
  I know I did. I know I did.
• 39:40
  Oh, it's, it's got some, it's got some lovely bits of bits of
• 39:44
  the Doctor in it, you know, Bunning, Bunning Rocks and Jamie
• 39:50
  getting hypnotised by accident. And there was some, there was
• 39:54
  some really lovely business in this one.
• 39:56
  Do you remember this line? Victoria, I think this is one of
• 40:00
  those times when discretion is the better part of valour.
• 40:03
  Jamie has an idea. Come on.
• 40:05
  They run off. Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 40:07
  He's great. My second reason is whether
• 40:13
  it's. Accurate or?
• 40:14
  Not whether it's offensive or not, I still think it is
• 40:19
  refreshing that we are taking a peek at another culture and a
• 40:25
  different religion. So I think it it's a worthy
• 40:28
  exercise. I don't know if it's done with
• 40:31
  much authenticity, and it is certainly something that
• 40:35
  troubles people today, how it's executed, but I do think it's
• 40:40
  something that's worth doing. Yeah.
• 40:43
  I'd also add that it is a really interesting exercise in Doctor
• 40:49
  Who, taking a subject matter and sort of a sub genre that was
• 40:57
  really kind of in the zeitgeist in the 50s and 60s and turning
• 41:02
  it into Doctor Who. Because I suppose what my main
• 41:06
  interest really is kind of all the things that went into it,
• 41:09
  its influences, and I suppose what, what came out, what
• 41:14
  actually what, you know, all these influences that went into
• 41:16
  this episode, what came out of it.
• 41:17
  I suppose what came out of it was the sequel The Web of Fear.
• 41:22
  And just the notional. Idea as put into words by Jon
• 41:26
  Pertwee of the Yeti in the loo in Tooting back.
• 41:31
  So it it it, it kind of ended up being an encapsulation of BI,
• 41:34
  not this itself, but the child of this of this of this story is
• 41:41
  just a way of encapsulating a main part of the charm of Doctor
• 41:46
  in general. What he's talking about there
• 41:48
  the. Yeti on the loo.
• 41:49
  I think that's the Web of Fears doing more than this story.
• 41:53
  Yeah. Oh, no.
• 41:54
  You. Expect to see a yesi.
• 41:55
  In the Himalayas, but you don't expect to see a yesi in the
• 41:58
  London. Oh yeah, yeah, but without this
• 42:00
  one. We wouldn't have reached that.
• 42:01
  That's all I'm saying. Because it's.
• 42:03
  Yeah, I so this is, but this is one of those ones.
• 42:06
  I like the idea of this story. Yeah.
• 42:12
  Yeah. And that's that's that would
• 42:14
  that's why I suggested it. And of course, Name of the
• 42:18
  Doctor. And the Snowman as well, which
• 42:21
  brought back the Great Intelligence.
• 42:22
  I believe Steven Moffat knew that the web of fear had been
• 42:27
  found and so was subtly introducing the idea of the
• 42:31
  Great Intelligence before the news and those episodes dropped.
• 42:36
  Yeah, that's my understanding. As well.
• 42:38
  Yeah, yeah. Which?
• 42:39
  Is which is great. What's my third thing then?
• 42:44
  I've got to 1/3 as well. Oh, do you know what?
• 42:48
  I don't think 1 actor does a foot wrong.
• 42:52
  I don't think they're the most like gripping performances
• 42:55
  you're going to see in Doctor Who.
• 42:56
  But I think all the monks are well cast.
• 42:58
  I think Jack Watling gives a memorable turn.
• 43:02
  The regulars are great. Chris Song just has to be that
• 43:05
  character that's sort of getting in the way, but he does it
• 43:08
  perfectly. And for whatever we said about
• 43:11
  the pace of how wimpy Morris is talking is, it is creepy.
• 43:17
  That's the thing if. You add a bit, you know, if you
• 43:19
  add a bit of that web of fear Bartok while he's talking and so
• 43:23
  you know, or whatever, you know, I think a bit of a bit of
• 43:26
  underscoring would have I think lifted those parts, you know, I
• 43:30
  think it. Is worth noting.
• 43:32
  Yeah, a lot. You know, most classic Doctor
• 43:34
  Who stories, there is usually one iffy performance in there
• 43:37
  somewhere. I don't think there really is
• 43:40
  here. No, everyone.
• 43:42
  I think everyone's pretty good. Everyone's pretty good.
• 43:44
  And being able to, yeah, go to, you know, that.
• 43:51
  Yeah, yeah. In pop culture, you know, there
• 43:54
  are so many kind of lamasteries hidden in the high Himalayas
• 43:59
  which are menaced by Yeti and it's nice that in the footsteps
• 44:04
  of Nigel Neil, the goons and Tin Tin it's own.
• 44:10
  I suppose that's just it's just, you know, that's that for me,
• 44:14
  that's just kind of inevitable. I think doctor was always going
• 44:19
  to have to meet the Yeti at some point.
• 44:21
  Have to, weirdly enough. My big take away from doing this
• 44:26
  commentary with you, it's less about the Abominable Snowmen,
• 44:30
  which I think, remember I said at the start, it's a story that
• 44:34
  I forget exists, then I'll watch it and I go, Oh yeah, that's
• 44:38
  really good. That's pretty good.
• 44:39
  You know, that's a good Doctor Who story.
• 44:41
  And then I forget it exists again.
• 44:43
  Probably in about a week's time I will forget that the
• 44:45
  Abominable. But you planted a seed in my
• 44:47
  head to go looking for possibly more cryptozoology podcasts that
• 44:54
  are out there or just look into some of the expeditions at the
• 44:58
  time. So it's it's all the stuff
• 45:00
  that's influenced the Abominable Snowmen that actually interested
• 45:04
  me a bit more than the story itself.
• 45:06
  Yeah, well, there is a podcast I'd.
• 45:07
  Recommend called Wide Atlantic Weird by a guy called Kian and
• 45:14
  it's. You can find that on wherever
• 45:18
  you get your podcast from. But it's he's he's, he's
• 45:20
  fascinating and he's really into cryptozoology.
• 45:24
  It's a it's a podcast about why people believe strange things.
• 45:27
  So it's right up my alley. But he talks about the Yeti,
• 45:32
  Sasquatch, Nessie, Hulk Hogan, you name it.
• 45:38
  Hogan. Yeah.
• 45:39
  Yeah, yeah, he's good. He's good.
• 45:41
  Yeah, yes, yeah. And the lost world genre.
• 45:46
  And again, he he's a fan of all that kind of stuff and has
• 45:50
  similar problems to me. So, you know, it's, yeah.
• 45:52
  So wide Atlantic Weird is definitely a podcast to seek out
• 45:56
  if you're into that kind of stuff.
• 46:00
  Well, I will. Listen to that before we talk
• 46:03
  again. But if I can ask you now, I
• 46:06
  don't think we have we determined what we might talk
• 46:09
  about next. No, I.
• 46:12
  I, I kind of like the idea that I don't know where we're going
• 46:15
  to go next. So we'll have, we'll have to see
• 46:19
  right now my mind. 'S my mind.
• 46:20
  'S a blank. So yeah, I'm.
• 46:22
  I'm terrified to know how this last time I made you do it.
• 46:25
  Live on air. I made you choose.
• 46:27
  Like life on air. But we'll park it here.
• 46:31
  Yeah, well, last. Time was easier, but that's the
• 46:33
  thing. Last time was like, I definitely
• 46:34
  want to do the Abominable Snowmen.
• 46:36
  Now I have I don't know. I don't know, I don't know.
• 46:39
  I have to see what I have. I have, I need to know what you
• 46:41
  haven't done yet, and that's probably a good place to start.
• 46:43
  Well, I'll send you a list then. But I see buckets.
• 46:47
  What this leaves me to do is to. Thank you very much, as ever,
• 46:51
  for your time and your smarts and your wits.
• 46:54
  You are a delightful guest on this podcast and it's wonderful
• 46:58
  to have you. Well, it's it's.
• 47:00
  Always a pleasure and a privilege to to hang out and
• 47:06
  talk bobbins whilst yeah whilst whilst not watching Doctor Who.
• 47:12
  Very well, no. When we barely.
• 47:14
  Watched, but we certainly talked a lot.
• 47:18
  Rob, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.
• 47:22
  Now catch. You soon buddy and then we need
• 47:24
  to get on this mountain so let's.
• 47:29
  Get always end on a laugh.