Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #156: The Dark Side of Dark Chocolate: Even in Organic!

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Episode #156: The Dark Side of Dark Chocolate: Even in Organic! · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_00: What if that virtuous indulgence was hiding a little secret?
0:05
SPEAKER_00: So, researchers from the George Washington University and Consumer Lab.com decided to kind of peek behind the wrapper of 72 popular dark chocolate and cocoa products.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: And what they found might make you think twice before reaching for the next piece of chocolate, or shall I say, leading cadmium.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Dr.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Cena McKella, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: And Joel, we have an episode that all the chocolate lovers and health enthusiasts have to listen to.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: It's what I call a bittersweet episode.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Hit me, hit me with some chocolate.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we're gonna dive into the dark side of chocolate, the heavy metal side.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: So there was a new study that was just dropped on July 31st.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Here it is, and it is starting to shake up the chocolate world.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: So, Joel, just picture this.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: You're curled up on the couch after having a long day of work, and you get your single little square of dark chocolate, right?
1:17
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna savor it because you feel pretty good about that, because dark chocolate is supposed to be healthy, supposed to help with heart health, cognitive function, and it tastes great.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: But what if that virtuous indulgence was hiding a little secret?
1:32
SPEAKER_00: So researchers from the George Washington University and Consumer Lab.com decided to kind of peek behind the wrapper of 72 popular dark chocolate and cocoa products.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: And what they found might make you think twice before reaching for the next piece of chocolate, or shall I say, leading cadmium.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Those are two of the heavy metals that you don't want in your diet, let alone your chocolate.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: But it appears to be present in chocolate at higher levels than some of us previously thought.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: So first I want to start with this though.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: What makes this study so special?
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Because we've had previous reports of heavy metals in chocolate.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: So Consumer Reports has published on this, As You Sew has published on this, but those were like a snapshot in time.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: So basically, what that means is they would get um chocolate bars, for instance, from the grocery store, send it to a lab, have it tested, and report on the findings.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And some of them did show high levels of lead and cadmium.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: This study is different because it's not a snapshot.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: They actually looked at products over an eight-year time period.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So from 2014 to 2022.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like a chocolate time capsule.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: This had never been done before, according to the lead researchers.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And they tested popular brands that you would find in a common grocery store or online.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: So things like Ghiradelli, Q, which Hughes become a popular brand for you know a lot of health enthusiasts, Lily's, the Whole Foods 365 brand, Nestle, Now Real Foods, Baker's, um, Good and Gather, among others.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: So that what they did was they tested these for heavy metals over a time period, and the first thing that showed up was lead.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, lead, that's stuff that we banned from paint and from gasoline because it's just not good for our health.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, 43% of all of the products that they tested exceeded the California Prop 65 limit for lead.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: So 43% of them had too much lead in them, according to Prop 65.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Now, according to the FDA's guidelines for how much heavy metal can be in a product, uh, 97% of them were still below the FDA's guideline.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: So I wonder what California's clearly got a you know got a higher or a lower limit.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: They've got a they've got a different threshold.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: They clearly have a different threshold.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: And for me, I definitely gear toward the Prop 65 limit for lead, not the FDA's guideline, not only historically speaking, of you know, how we know the FDA creates its guidelines, but for the stricter standard, because there if you look in the literature, there's one scientific journal after the next that is showing that there is no safe level of lead in the blood.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I was gonna put.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Lead is cumulative.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, uh uh there's you're not supposed to get any lead.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, lead at pretty much at any level is unacceptable.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: So why uh I'll I'll I'll I'll let you go ahead and tell the story, yeah.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: But I'm I'm desperate to find why do they have to put it in there?
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: So we'll get let's let's get into that.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: First, let me tell you the summation of the results, and then I want to dive right into that as well.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um, one thing I want to point about lead because some people listening or watching us may just think, you know, oh, you're being extremists, like lead can't be that bad, right?
5:23
SPEAKER_00: But even low levels can be toxic to the central nervous system, like contributing to cognitive decline, fine motor control issues, attention deficit disorder.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, think of all the issues we're having with kids now with attention deficit.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: And these findings are occurring in both kids and adults.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, there was a 2022 review in a journal called Systematic Reviews, and they found that lead exposure can lower the IQ score of children.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: They're saying it's potentially irreversible, which you know, I don't believe in that.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: But either way, this isn't exactly the brain boost that we think we're getting from the chocolate, right?
6:01
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of doing the opposite if you if it does have higher levels of lead.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: And then they showed higher levels of cadmium.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, cadmium is not as famous as lead, of course, but it is no less concerning.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: 35% of the products exceeded Prop 65 limits for cadmium.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's actually a review that I found in current atherosclerosis report.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: They actually are calling cadmium a quote cardiovascular risk factor.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: They're saying cadmium promotes the progression of atherosclerosis, so it is determined to be now a risk factor.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: It can also increase blood pressure and increase your risk of kidney damage.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And um, a review in 2016 said that it might actually increase your risk for fractures.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and now here is one of the most startling findings of this study, which is why I started out by saying health enthusiasts need to hear this episode.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Because the organic chocolate had higher levels of both lead and cadmium, right, compared to their conventional counterparts.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: So talk about a plot twist.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: It's like the um the organic products were 280% more likely to exceed the Prop 65 cadmium limit, and they were 14% more likely to exceed its lead limit.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: All right, that sounds that's crazy, right?
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Because we're reaching for that dark chocolate, we're making sure it's organic, we're making some of us are making sure it's like non-GMO certified and fair trade certified.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: And they actually found that even those certifications meant nothing in terms of lower levels of heavy metals.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it didn't matter.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: And in organic, it was worse.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: So I actually had the opportunity to talk with one of the lead researchers, uh, Dr.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Lee Frame.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she was one of the lead researchers of this particular study.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: And she actually told me that their hypothesis was that the organic products would be lower in heavy metals.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's because they theorized that they weren't, they didn't have the fertilizers and the pesticides on those crops, those cocoa bean crops.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: And they thought that those fertilizers and pesticides were what was bringing in heavy metals to the chocolate products.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: But she said to me that what they found was, quote, exactly the opposite.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Now, why these organic products have higher levels of heavy metal, she said is unclear.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: She said a couple of things.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: One is perhaps fertilizers and pesticides, pesticizers, fertilizers and pesticides are not adding as many heavily heavy metals to this crop as they per previously thought.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: But she also thinks that, you know, part of the introduction of the heavy metals comes from the processing of these beans.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: So what she is theorizing is that the manufacturers who are processing the organic products, they may not be as aggressive in like scrubbing them and using like high heat and stuff to process them.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe the gentler processing methods themselves are leaving more residual heavy metals in that final product.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's kind of like the chocolate equivalent of not washing your vegetables, right?
9:28
SPEAKER_00: So, but again, she emphasizes this is her theory.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: She doesn't know.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So let's dive a little deeper into what you asked about.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: Where are these heavy metals coming from?
9:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a couple places that we have identified.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: One is starting from the original source, the soil, where the um the cocoa trees are grown.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: The cocoa trees apparently are really good at absorbing heavy metals from the soil, just kind of like rice, right?
9:54
SPEAKER_00: Rice is really good at absorbing the heavy metals.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: So these metals, some of them are occurring naturally in the soil, but they feel like quite a bit of them are from environmental contamination of the soil.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Things like livestock manure that had heavy metals in it, uh, polluted irrigation water, sewage sludge, which you and I have talked about on this program before, the all the different toxins that are in sewage sludge.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: The government has acknowledged that there are heavy metals that show up consistently in sewage sludge.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, pesticides, herbicides could also contribute to heavy metals in the soil and even air pollution.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, like when they used to, it was worse in the past, she said, but there used to be these industrial plants that were set up right next to these cocoa fields, cocoa bean fields.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: And so when they when they had these emissions coming from these industrial factories, that would go into the air and it would settle down onto the soil.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's less of a problem today, but she does still think there's residuals.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: So the contamination doesn't stop there, though.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Here's an example of after harvest how the cocoa beans could be contaminated, particularly with lead, because they think the cadmium, the cadmium exposure likely occurs in the soil.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: The lead exposure um predominantly, she believes, occurs in the processing.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Some would occur through soil exposure because there's still, for instance, lead in soil from when we had um lead that was in gasoline.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: But what happens is after they've harvested the beans, these cocoa beans are usually dried in the sun for several days.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And during that drying process, they can pick up lead from dust and dirt that's in the environment.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: And that it can also come from, like I said, the industrial pollution and the residuals in the soil.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: But as the beans dry, that dust that contains the lead adheres to the surface of the bean.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: And so then it gets processed into the chocolate.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And here comes her theory about well, if they're not scrubbing the beans thoroughly, then it's more likely to end up in the chocolate.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: So we think it's predominantly coming from those two sources, both the soil and the way that it's actually processed.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: All right.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: We take a gentler approach um in all of its ramifications.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: And so here you have uh so so here you have the the organic standards um uh not compensating for a gentler approach to how to handle something that has exposure to toxicity.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but but the standards don't address that issue.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: And so so then so then it comes through.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly fascinating.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's exactly right.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, when I wrote my first book, I actually reached out and was trying to get quotes from people.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, I didn't know anybody at the time, so it was like a miracle when somebody respond back and give me a quote that I could add to the book, right?
13:25
SPEAKER_00: So I reached out to Mike Adams, the health ranger, and he had just released a book on toxins in the environment.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, he has his own lab that he created because there's so many toxins in the food supply, and he wanted to have a third party test these products.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: So, anyhow, he responded back to me because I asked him, what is the most surprising thing that you've learned about our food supply?
13:50
SPEAKER_00: And I kid you not, he said to me, it's that even though we have large uh contamination of heavy metals across the food supply, the there is no limit established for the organic label.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: So the organic label just ignored this problem altogether of you know heavy metals.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: So there is no standard, is what he was saying, for a food to be con for a food to be qualified to carry that organic seal.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: They don't have to show that they have acceptable ranges of heavy metals.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So, like you, that was his most surprising thing he had ever learned in his decades of exploring the food supply.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and now and at the time I was like, oh yeah, that sucks, you know, like oversight.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: But now yeah, well, as as you and I, you know, when we wrote Beyond Labels, uh, we had we had many, many uh nuances of things that that you or I or another person might consider is important, and the organic standards don't address it.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: And people don't realize they think it's some sort of you know really comprehensive, comprehensive uh uh food safety platform.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's not.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: It has massive uh overlooks in it.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And and um and this is one of them, apparently.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, and these and these um a lot of these places, people don't realize.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, look, our family lived in Venezuela, you know, for uh we uh we were dad was there 12 years, we left when I was four, and um, and we would routinely see the uh coffee beans, uh cocoa beans, um, out drying.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Literally, they they literally they would spread them on a the reason that they used the dirt road was because that was one place where, you know, in the tropics where there's dirt, you know, tropics that it's jungle, you know, they they grow all this blue.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: And and so literally we have pictures, old black and white pictures of the 1950s, where these folks are spreading all of this um stuff to dry, both coffee and cocoa beans, um in the road.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Just, you know, I mean, leave enough room for a car to go by, but you know, just in the road because because the road was where the sun could get in, you know.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, in other words, it didn't have a it didn't have a vegetative canopy over it, like trees and stuff to shade it.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: They wanted full sun.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, what better place to have full sun than in the road?
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And um, and what better place to be able to, you know, to get to and control and watch it than in the road.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: And so here you have actual where the where the traffic and and the roads are you know, they're just dirt road, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And um, and so imagine the whatever, uh, you know, everything from motor oil drippings to you know to exhaust and everything else, and and and the dust.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's just it's just in the dust of the road, you know, and then and then they would hand shovel them with scoop shovels, hand shovel them up, and um, and that was the that was the drying procedure, you know.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: And I I suspect it hasn't changed much, you know, to today.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: I would suspect nuts uh too.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't I'm totally theorizing here, but considering the places where these are grown, I wouldn't expect there would have been much technological advancement at this point in terms of that process.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that actually makes me think, you know, before the show, I was just telling Joel how much I love chocolate.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: That like that I would wake up in the morning and be like, it's chocolate today, you know, although I don't usually do that.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: But this is actually making me think twice.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Like well, it what what it does is it um it it makes you it it makes you think that well maybe the maybe the non-organic chocolate is actually at least from a from a heavy metal standpoint, is actually, I mean, what what what's your you're you're not gonna you're not gonna swear off chocolate, are you, Cena?
18:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, really oh no.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna we'll jump into solutions, yes.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: So, but but yeah, but let's say the solutions just a moment because I want to piggyback on what you're saying, that part see part of the solution isn't just pertaining to chocolate, because as we're discussing this, you need to look at the bigger picture, right?
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And the bigger picture is that dark chocolate isn't the only place that's hiding these heavy metals, right?
18:32
SPEAKER_00: And you and I've talked about this before.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: There's lots of places in our food supply where we're coming across heavy metal.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So even if you just wore off all chocolate, you're still going to be exposed to the heavy metal.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: So, like for instance, um, I found this 2019 review in Environmental International, and they list all these numerous food crops where heavy metals have been tested by scientists and shown to be positive.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's across the board, Joel.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like some fruits, um, lots of leafy vegetables like green cabbage and spinach and cauliflower, lettuce, and kale, and even root vegetables aren't off the hook.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: Radishes, turnips, carrots have all been tested at some point to contain heavy metals.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, wheat, rice, soybeans, corn, even garlic has been tested with high heavy metals, along with marine fish, seafood, herbal medicines, herbal teas, some spices, fruit juices, even your drinking water can contain heavy metals, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Especially if you're in an area with aging infrastructure or national geological sources of contamination.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: So, so it's really this more of an eye-opening.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: This is one of the reasons why I wanted to bring this study to everyone's attention is number one, organic doesn't always mean better, depending on what you're looking for, right?
19:47
SPEAKER_00: And number two, be aware that it's not just chocolate, right?
19:52
SPEAKER_00: This is an awareness lesson for us that it is in a vast variety of foods.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: So, like Dr.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Frame said to me, it's not about excluding any of these foods, because, in her opinion, there's no way to get zero exposure to heavy metals anymore in our food supply.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: And so what she said is what you do is you need to make sure your exposure isn't too high, that you're balancing it.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: So be aware of these foods that contain these heavy metals and rotate your foods, which fits right into what you and I keep talking about, about eating seasonally.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't eat seasonally, at least cycle your foods so you're not eating the same foods all the time, right?
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, now another thing I wanted to bring up though, because I thought this was fascinating, because most researchers aren't willing to actually kind of go on the line like this.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: When I was talking to Dr.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Frame, so I read the study and I picked up on just a little undercurrent, like an undertone, where I thought, you know what?
20:52
SPEAKER_00: I think her lab is challenging the health benefits of chocolate.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And I you don't hear a lot of people doing that, right?
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So I asked her, I'm like, this is what it sounds like, you know, like you're putting planting a little seed here.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: The chocolate may not be all it's cracked up to be.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: And she said, yes, they are actually challenging it on two fronts.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, one because they don't think the proposed benefits of chocolate might outweigh the risk of heavy metal exposure.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: And and let me let me just explain for a little bit, okay?
21:26
SPEAKER_00: She said that when you hear about these chocolate benefits, you can't really extrapolate them to all humans, right?
21:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not like we talk about, it's not a blanket statement that it's going to be good for all humans.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: So dark chocolate has been associated with improving cardiovascular health, cognitive function, and reducing inflammation, right?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Three primary um health benefits of dark chocolate.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: But there's a review in 2021 in a journal called Nutrients.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: This was an extensive review.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: It concluded that the cocoa.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Products did seem to improve triglycerides.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: But there is no effect overall.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So when you're looking at all these studies combined, this is what it did.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: They showed no significant effect on blood pressure, blood glucose, cognitive function, skin, um, anthrop um, anthropometry, or um cardiovascular function or cognitive function.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And that was regardless of the type of chocolate, the dose, or the duration at which they consumed.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: And these are this was among healthy people.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So what they're saying is the benefits of chocolate, of dark chocolate, has probably been overblown.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: That we're actually, when we look at the literature collectively, and that's what you need to do in science.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: You can't just take one study and say, oh, this study said it was great.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, look at who's funding these studies.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times they're the chocolate companies, right?
22:55
SPEAKER_00: So when you looked at it collectively, we're not seeing all these benefits.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: And there's a couple of reasons why.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is really important for our audience to understand, because we get a lot of emails of people asking me, how do I know if I can trust the study?
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: So here's a little bit of insight into that, what you're looking for.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: So a couple things.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: One is this wasn't published in the study, but consumer labs who tested all these products, they actually reported on their website that there was a high level of variation amongst these products in the level of cocoa flavanols.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So the flavanols are that compound that is supposedly giving us the benefits, okay, the health benefits.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: So what they said was there's a huge range of flavanols in the products that were tested.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: So to put this into perspective, if you're running a study to see if chocolate has a benefit on heart disease, you're gonna pick some a chocolate that has a flavanol range of somewhere between 200 and 900 milligrams a day.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, 200 to 900 milligrams a day.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: And they usually try to do it in a one-ounce serving.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: What they showed in this lab report was that the flavanol content in that piece of chocolate could range from one milligram to 350.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So if you need 200 milligrams, right, and that's the minimum.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: The minimum they would be giving someone to see if flavanols make a difference was 200 milligrams minimum.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Some of these chocolates showed up as one milligram.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what that means is you may be getting the dud of the chocolate, right?
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Your one ounce that you pick, because you may only be getting a milligram or more of the of the flavanoles, the where the health benefit comes from, but you may be getting the dose of heavy metals.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: So this is so Cena, did they did in the study, did they then publish the range and the brands?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: They did not.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: They did not.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: And so so so one of my questions then would be um if they if they did not, then you know, uh pardon the pun, we're still in the dark.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh dark.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: We're still in the dark.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: You can tell it's early in the morning for us.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh but but but the other thing, the other thing is that I wonder, I wonder if in their um in their analysis were different brands consistently high or low, or was there even variation like batch?
25:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm thinking of of of batches.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so one is in a back road in Venezuela, one comes from a from a uh someplace in Colombia, one comes from, you know, you see where I'm going with this.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: That that that that the provenance, um, you know, it would be fascinating if if studying the different brands, if there was one brand, for example, that was consistently low, wouldn't it be interesting to go back and see uh low in you know lead and calcadmium?
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be interesting, or maybe high in in flavanol, you know, i either way, but but to see um who is consistently at the top or bottom of these um benchmarks, and then and then see what the you know what the protocols are.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, for how where they're growing and how they're actually processing.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: All those things.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, are the uh uh goodness, I mean, there's so many questions this kind of stuff, like like are are the are the highest flavanols also in the highest heavy metals?
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Or is there an inverse relationship between the heavy metals and the flavanols?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you have an answer for that, but those are just things that immediately come to my mind as to you know additional um areas of query.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Those are great questions.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: And uh so the study didn't list any of that.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: I was able to do to figure out, or I asked Dr.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Frame uh to give me a list of the the products that were tested.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: So the ones I mentioned earlier, like Lily's Hughes, 360, the that was a list that they were willing to give me.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: It is not there were 72 products tested, so that's not inclusive of all of them.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: She said it's just uh a representation of the array of products that they tested.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know which one tested where, right?
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much heavy metal was in each of the products.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, I did reach out to each of those chocolate companies that I listed and asked them for a statement.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: And um Ghirardelli responded, say basically, I kind of feel like I got the brush off that was like, oh no, we adhere to standards, you know.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: And then Hugh responded, and they were very um attentive.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: They called me right back and they said that they actually test their products and that they adhere to, you know, the strictest standards possible.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I so that would lead me to believe that they're not lying to me, right?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Like they're willing to share their reports, right?
28:19
SPEAKER_00: The other comp none of the other companies contacted me back.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: So those are the only two that responded.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: But here's another little caveat, and this is another thing for um for listeners to help to I like to kind of peel back the veil of these studies so that people also understand like science does the best they can, right?
28:43
SPEAKER_00: But there's always flaws and there's always strings attached.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: So here's another one of those examples.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Remember how I said this is kind of like a time capsule, a chocolate time capsule, because they tested over eight-year period.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: You would think what they would have done was tested the same brands over the entire eight-year period.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: And they did not.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: So in the study, what they reported was that over time they saw a decrease in the heavy metals in the chocolate.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, well, that sounds great, right?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Because that implies maybe there's either less contamination of the soil or the chocolate makers improve their process of processing the bean into the chocolate, right?
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Or the or the or the cocoa bean or the cocoa uh bean trees pulled it all out of the soil and uh and we're carrying it all.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: We ate it all.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: And now we're gonna pee and poop it out, and they're gonna put that sewage sludge back on the cocoa trees and give it back.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: That's the circle of life.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Like that's our new food web, Joel.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Who it's like hot potato, playing hot potato with the heavy metal, right?
29:55
SPEAKER_00: And when the music stops, you're the loser because you got stuck with it, right?
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: So um, okay, so this is what happened.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, I said, well, that's fascinating because that's a hopeful story.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: That means there's improvements that are being made.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: So I asked her about it because this is what happened.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: I looked in the method section, and it says that um this is this is exactly what it says.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: Products with higher levels of heavy metal contamination were often excluded from subsequent testing.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Get this consistent with consumer labs stated mission, which is quote, to help consumers and healthcare professionals find the best quality health and nutrition products through independent testing and evaluation.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: So basically, when the when they showed up high, they dumped them.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm assuming, this is me assuming right here, I don't know for a fact, that it was probably products that were promoted by consumer labs.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Because when I questioned Dr.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Frame about it, she said to me, and I quote, I would not have done the study that way.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but see, they partnered with a lab who has their own agenda.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: And what she was saying to me was that consumer labs lost money.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Once they published the results, they lost money.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And so they stopped testing the all those chocolate brands.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, isn't that just you talk about uh nefarious sleight of hand to to to then come out with a press release?
31:31
SPEAKER_01: To imagine so the press release comes out.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Um study finds the finds heavy metal uh toxicity in chocolate on a downward trend.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And suddenly everybody is lured into and what it was.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: See, they here it is, Cena.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: They actually did find the brands, they've they identified the brands over their first couple of years, and then they started excluding those brands.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So that information is there, that branding information is there.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: They just chose not to um not to publicize it, and then they used that to pick their samples going forward.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, what a deal!
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's why I was like, what?
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, that's why you know, red flag race when I was I was reading the method section, and I was like, like you would never design if you're truly seeking for answers, right?
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Like that's your agenda is really just to find the truth.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Right, you would never do that.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: That would never be your protocol, right?
32:34
SPEAKER_00: That's a completely biased protocol.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: But again, I mean, look, this was peer-reviewed, this was published in a reputable journal.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: This is just one more example of what happens.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: So you have to dig into it.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, I know the method section, like it's not like that's your favorite Friday night activity.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Let's go read the methods section, you know.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: But well, for some of us it is like I think I might have read it on a Friday.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: But uh, but anyhow, it's so important to dig into how are they doing that?
33:02
SPEAKER_00: Don't just trust the headlines, right?
33:05
SPEAKER_00: They're just trying to sell the papers.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: It's it's just the same thing.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, they're trying to sell the chocolate.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, it the the the you know, it's it's it's just like the early GMO, GMO studies that Monsanto did um on on uh on potatoes and rats, and they purposely chose geriatric rats.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it doesn't affect organ development, it doesn't affect cognitive, you know.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And when the same studies were done in Scotland using juvenile rats that weren't fully mature, all sorts of problems showed up.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: And and so um, so yeah, how you how you define that.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: That it's just so important for people to understand as they you know as they read the headlines, read the you know, whatever it is, um about studies.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: We're about out of time, Cena.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: What what so so uh how do you want to talk solutions?
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, solutions and and maybe the best thing is what are the top two things you can do to get heavy metals out of your body?
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: So um I want to start by the overall conclusion, and Dr.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Frame and I came to the same conclusion, is that there's no blanketed um prescription that you know, chocolate, you're gonna get benefits from this dark chocolate, right?
34:30
SPEAKER_00: That the flavanols are gonna benefit you.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: It has a lot to do with like your background diet, your level of stress, the microbiome, things like that.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: So what she told me is that if somebody has is very low in polyphenols, like say they are consuming a low flavonoid diet, then chocolate could be beneficial, right?
34:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's like what she was saying with coffee.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: She said that coffee, one of the reasons why it can be beneficial for somebody, is if their diet is low in polyphenols, right?
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Because it raises that content of their diet.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, so what you have to do is look at your overall diet.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: If you're somebody who's already eating a diet that's high in polyphenols, uh, you know, including flavonoids, then you may not actually be getting benefits from the dark chocolate consumption, uh, you know, other than if it gives you an emotional benefit, right?
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Is it tastes good, but uh like our feel-good food.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it may not be worth the risk to you because we are seeing higher levels of heavy metals in them.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so that's the first takeaway.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: But here's some practical steps.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay, enjoy your dark chocolate in moderation, right?
35:46
SPEAKER_00: As part of a balanced, varied diet.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: Frame said, don't consume more than a one-ounce serving at a time.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: And again, that one ounce is usually what they use in studies.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: But here's my thing: I mean, how often are you gonna be able to stop in an ounce, right?
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Who stops at one ounce?
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, like I figured, like, I eat a couple chocolate chip cookies.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: That's gonna be over an ounce, you know?
36:08
SPEAKER_00: So, so another suggestion, I got several of them here.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Another one is you can vary your source of where you're getting your chocolate products from.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: So she was saying that if you don't know which ones have the higher levels of heavy metals, then buy several brands and and you know, and choose, rotate the brands that you're using.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: You can also alternate between dark chocolate and milk chocolate.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: So, like as long, I mean as long as you can tolerate lactose, right?
36:40
SPEAKER_00: You could alternate between dark chocolate and milk chocolate.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: So, dark chocolate typically offers more antioxidants and less sugar, you know, according as I have said though, that varies.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: But in general, the dark chocolate would offer more antioxidants and less sugar, um, but may contain higher levels of the heavy metal because it has a higher content of the cocoa solids.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the heavy metals tend to accumulate, is in the cocoa solids.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: So milk chocolate has lower levels of cocoa solids, so presumably, presumably lower levels of heavy metals.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, white chocolate, which some people argue that's not even chocolate, right?
37:21
SPEAKER_00: But white chocolate has no measurable levels of cocoa solids.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's actually another good option.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: You can also locate different cocoa brands that do tests regularly for heavy metals.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: And there are brands out there that test using third-party laboratories, and they will show you their test results.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: So there's two, I quickly Googled it.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: There's two that I know of.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: So the Health Ranger store, they test for heavy metals using a third party.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: And so does a company who I've I've never purchased from them, but it showed up on the on my Google search.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, I believe it's um Raka.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Joel, help me here.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: It's R-A-A-K-A.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Would that be Raqqa or Raka?
38:09
SPEAKER_01: I would say Raqqa.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Raqqa has um a whole site on their webpage talking about how they they do third-party testing and we'll give you the results.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: You can also look at organizations like consumer reports and as you sew, they did provide test results for the chocolates that they tested.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: So you can find those on their website.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: In terms of the broader picture, that there's heavy metals not just in chocolates, but other foods, as we've discussed, diversifying your diet is very helpful.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: It can actually help you reduce or minimize your exposure to the heavy level, level heavy metals.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because let's say it's in your spinach.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you're consuming a spinach smoothie every day, that's a more known source of heavy metals that you're now taking into your diet every day.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: So change that up, you know, uh swap it out for something else.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Um and again, we have to say if you're pregnant, breastfeeding, or you're feeding young children, you want to be particularly careful with how much of these chocolate products you get.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh, filter your drinking water, right?
39:19
SPEAKER_00: To get it out of the water that you're consuming, even if it's coming from public water, those have been notorious for being high in heavy metals, like arsenic, for instance.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, well, water is no exception.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Those can also be high in heavy metals.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: So you want to filter your water, you want to wash your fruits and vegetables in filtered water, right?
39:42
SPEAKER_00: To remove some of these surface contaminants we're talking about.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: So make sure it's filtered water.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um to get just a couple notes to help your body get rid of it.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Um sweating.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: So sweating, urinating, defecation, make sure you're having regular bowel movements, make sure you're urinating throughout the day.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, and make sure you're sweating every day.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: If you can't get out and exercise for physical reasons, you can sit in the sun, you can sit in a sauna, you can actually do um an Epsom salt bath, right?
40:16
SPEAKER_00: And with with warm, like very warm water and let it sweat out of you.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a good way to remove toxins.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we can go on and on, but you can also consume binders, for instance.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, clays are good for pulling out heavy metals and so forth.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: So, what do you think, Joel?
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Is that a good start for solutions?
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's really good because I'm glad we didn't end the program telling folks uh don't eat chocolate.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Probably, probably the feel, you know, in the again, you and I are into the big scheme of things.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: In the big scheme of things, uh chances are that the the um the the the dopamines and the the the feel-good satisfaction of consuming uh two or three ounces of of chocolate, even milk chocolate, you know, uh probably outweighs whatever uh some of the some of the negatives.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, you you what happens is you can you can um you can take all the joy out of it by being paranoid about it, you know.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: So that's right.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Um so I I think I think the the upshot for me of this is it's just a fascinating look at at how a study is conducted, the things that they looked at, the things that got buried, if you will, or or you know, conveniently um you know excluded.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, excluded, put aside.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And and it's always good to, you know, for you to bring us up to speed on on um on the whatever the the the non the non-truth or non-empirical um you know findings of studies.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: It's it's good.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: So so so uh so the question um so a question for our listeners is um what's your favorite chocolate brand?
42:02
SPEAKER_01: How's that?
42:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh your favorite brand of chocolate and and how and uh and the bonus question would be uh on average, how many times should we say a week or a month, uh do you consume chocolate?
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Um you want me to out myself.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I I yeah, I I'm thinking here, I I don't eat chocolate, I don't even eat chocolate once a month.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Um it's not because I don't like it.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: I just, you know, I got especially in the summer, we got you know, garden stuff and uh I don't know, don't eat chocolate.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: Now ice cream, a different story in the summer, you know, ice cream.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: So so we are anyway.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, what's your favorite brand?
42:50
SPEAKER_01: And um, and how many times do you eat uh eat you know chocolate um, you know, per whatever, per week or per month?
42:58
SPEAKER_01: How's that for a question?
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I love the random on that note because I'm certainly not giving up my chocolate.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Like I love my chocolate.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have fond memories attached, like that emotional attachment to chocolate.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: My husband is the one that brings chocolate into the house.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: He loves it.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so what I'm doing is I am I am I cycle my chocolate, right?
43:18
SPEAKER_00: So my body doesn't become sensitive to it, but I buy from these brands that are third-party tested.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: So I just don't worry about it.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: It's tested and I'm gonna enjoy it.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: You know?
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Good for you.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: All right.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's the bottom line from the from from our head researcher.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Zina, for digging into this and and for giving a a bit of a um explanatory but lighthearted uh look at behind this behind the scenes here.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: And it's so good that you were able to actually talk to one of the researchers of the study uh so that you actually got uh inside information.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: It's fat fascinating, fascinating.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for joining us on another episode of uh Beyond Labels, and uh we look forward to being with you again next week.