Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / LeadershipIn podcast - James Deaker, Greg MacDonald, Geoff Wolinetz

Transcript

LeadershipIn podcast - James Deaker, Greg MacDonald, Geoff Wolinetz · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

• 0:01
  Welcome back to Leadership In, where we
• 0:02
  sit down with the people steering
• 0:04
  advertising, media, and technology
• 0:05
  through moments of change. I'm Jeff
• 0:07
  Wallenus.
• 0:08
  >> And I'm Greg McDonald.
• 0:10
  If you've ever thought about becoming an
• 0:11
  independent consultant, this episode is
• 0:13
  for you.
• 0:14
  Jeff and I, along with today's guest,
• 0:16
  James Dicker, all work as independent
• 0:18
  consultants, and we get asked all the
• 0:21
  time by friends, former colleagues, and
• 0:24
  even strangers, what does it take to go
• 0:26
  independent?
• 0:27
  Some people want to consult as they look
• 0:29
  for their next corporate roles, while
• 0:31
  others want consulting to be their path
• 0:33
  forward.
• 0:35
  James and I have been meeting and
• 0:36
  trading notes on this for a couple of
• 0:37
  years now, and we thought it would be
• 0:38
  really good to record this. So, for this
• 0:41
  episode, we're doing something a little
• 0:42
  bit different and having a three-way
• 0:43
  conversation about our experiences as
• 0:45
  consultants and exploring some of the
• 0:47
  most common questions people ask about
• 0:49
  this path.
• 0:51
  But first, let me welcome and introduce
• 0:53
  today's guest, James Dicker, also known
• 0:55
  as the Yield Doctor.
• 0:57
  He holds a PhD from Stanford and spent
• 1:00
  decades in leadership roles at Yahoo,
• 1:02
  Verizon, and Microsoft building deal
• 1:04
  desks, driving pricing strategy, and
• 1:06
  helping clients unlock tens of millions
• 1:08
  of dollars in incremental revenue.
• 1:11
  He now runs his own firm, Cortia Media,
• 1:13
  where he advises companies across media,
• 1:15
  ad tech, and retail media on pricing and
• 1:17
  yield. He also shares his perspective
• 1:19
  with the industry through his YouTube
• 1:21
  channel called the Yield Doctor.
• 1:23
  So, today the three of us are talking
• 1:25
  shop. What's it like to build this kind
• 1:26
  of career, what we wish we'd known
• 1:28
  earlier, and what it takes to make it
• 1:30
  work. So, James, welcome.
• 1:33
  >> Thank you for having me. I'm really
• 1:34
  excited to have this conversation. You
• 1:36
  and I have been bouncing around some
• 1:37
  ideas on this for quite a while.
• 1:38
  >> We really have. So, let's start with Can
• 1:42
  Can you just talk a little bit about the
• 1:44
  general environment for consulting?
• 1:47
  >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting right
• 1:49
  now, because consulting is a term or is
• 1:51
  a sort of modern industry has been
• 1:53
  around for, you know, 100 years or more,
• 1:56
  depending on how you define it. And in
• 1:58
  most of those situations, companies have
• 2:01
  been pulling in third-party help for
• 2:03
  areas where either they don't have
• 2:06
  specific expertise in an area where
• 2:09
  they're facing a challenge, or frankly
• 2:11
  they just need to to augment their
• 2:13
  staff.
• 2:14
  And what's a little bit different now is
• 2:17
  post-pandemic and also the rise of AI,
• 2:20
  which we may get into later, is that we
• 2:23
  can all do a lot more work remotely as
• 2:26
  opposed to sort of 25 years ago if
• 2:29
  you're a consultant, you would show up
• 2:31
  on site, probably get put into a
• 2:33
  cubicle, and and work sort of heads down
• 2:36
  on site. The model has changed
• 2:39
  significantly. And so that's that's a
• 2:41
  change in in terms of the broader
• 2:43
  environment. And I think what's
• 2:45
  different and why you and I have perhaps
• 2:47
  had this conversation and why many of
• 2:50
  our friends who are in similar life
• 2:53
  stages have been reaching out saying,
• 2:55
  "Hey, I'm thinking about being a
• 2:56
  consultant." Is that at a certain life
• 3:00
  stage, if you've had a successful
• 3:03
  corporate career, you have developed a
• 3:05
  set of expertise,
• 3:07
  but maybe you're looking to work in a
• 3:10
  different way, whether that's with more
• 3:12
  flexibility,
• 3:13
  on a wider range of problems, with
• 3:15
  different people. There are all sorts of
• 3:18
  different reasons why people may look at
• 3:20
  consulting or advisory services. And I
• 3:23
  think another thing that you and I keep
• 3:25
  talking about is there are so many
• 3:27
  different flavors of that. There are
• 3:29
  different challenges, there are
• 3:30
  different work styles. And so one um
• 3:34
  thing that we sort of counsel people not
• 3:36
  to say is just consulting and go from
• 3:39
  there is, "Well, what are you actually
• 3:41
  trying to do if you're doing that type
• 3:43
  of work? Who are you trying to help?
• 3:45
  What sort of problems do you want to
• 3:46
  take on?" Because frankly, it can be a
• 3:49
  very challenging thing to do. It has a
• 3:52
  lot of benefits that we may talk about,
• 3:54
  but if you're looking for predictable
• 3:56
  income and you've got maybe young kids
• 3:59
  or mortgages that need to get paid, I
• 4:02
  don't necessarily recommend consulting,
• 4:05
  you know, at that life stage. And so,
• 4:07
  there's a lot of pros and cons
• 4:09
  associated with it.
• 4:11
  >> You said a lot there. I want to pick at
• 4:12
  a couple of things very specifically.
• 4:15
  One is um and
• 4:17
  Greg, you you and I have talked about
• 4:19
  this and Jean I'm curious to hear what
• 4:20
  you think about it, but I I think a lot
• 4:22
  of people think that you go into
• 4:23
  consulting because you want to work
• 4:24
  less.
• 4:25
  And that can be true depending on how
• 4:28
  you think about or structure your
• 4:29
  business, but I I actually think in many
• 4:32
  ways I work more. And it's not just
• 4:34
  because I work more hours necessarily,
• 4:36
  but
• 4:37
  >> [clears throat]
• 4:37
  >> for every hour I work, I'm putting an
• 4:38
  hour or two of business development in.
• 4:41
  Someone's not handing me business
• 4:43
  necessarily. I mean, of course it
• 4:45
  happens. Someone will pick me up and
• 4:46
  say, you know, do you have 12 hours for
• 4:48
  me? I need some help. But, you know, if
• 4:49
  I'm actively trying to keep a business
• 4:51
  going, that pipeline's got to stay
• 4:52
  fresh. It's being a salesperson on
• 4:54
  steroids. So, from that perspective, I
• 4:56
  think in a lot of ways like there's this
• 4:57
  misconception that consultants just sort
• 4:59
  of work when they work and don't when
• 5:02
  they don't, but the reality is the don't
• 5:04
  part is actually most of the work.
• 5:06
  >> It really comes down to what are you
• 5:08
  trying to build and why are you trying
• 5:10
  to build it? If you are trying to build
• 5:13
  a successful ongoing enterprise that is
• 5:17
  growing, consulting is a lot of work. It
• 5:21
  be more than if you're in a corporate
• 5:23
  for all the reasons you mentioned. You
• 5:25
  have to build your own reputation, you
• 5:27
  have to build your own book of business.
• 5:30
  And one thing that we we may want to get
• 5:32
  into is you have to decide whether it's
• 5:35
  just you that you're going to represent
• 5:37
  or whether you're going to actually
• 5:39
  build a team. And if you are trying to
• 5:42
  build a team, that has a whole different
• 5:44
  set of stresses associated with it. Greg
• 5:47
  and I work with someone who built a
• 5:50
  small team and was building a successful
• 5:53
  business, but was it was very clear that
• 5:57
  the effort of bringing on people even in
• 6:00
  a contractor and subcontractor role
• 6:02
  created a lot more stress for them than
• 6:05
  it did for an independent person. And
• 6:08
  so, as you say, some people take it on
• 6:10
  cuz they want to work less. I've had
• 6:11
  people say, I don't want to get into
• 6:13
  consulting cuz I actually know that it's
• 6:15
  more work than if I go to a to
• 6:17
  predictable sort of corporate role.
• 6:20
  There I'm I'm going to have more
• 6:21
  predictability into my future income and
• 6:24
  into the amount of work that I'm going
• 6:25
  to have to do.
• 6:26
  >> Well, and I think the other thing that
• 6:28
  causes a lot of work too, or certainly I
• 6:30
  find, is that you're there's a lot of
• 6:31
  things that you're learning, part of
• 6:33
  which is just small business ownership,
• 6:34
  but some of which is,
• 6:36
  you know, what things should I do? What
• 6:38
  order should I do them in? How much
• 6:40
  effort is it worth
• 6:41
  having, you know, how how how much
• 6:43
  effort should I put into building a
• 6:44
  website or maintaining a an online
• 6:46
  presence or marketing or whatever the
• 6:48
  case is? I mean, it's kind of endless
• 6:50
  depending on how you're structured and
• 6:52
  what your goals are, but there's a lot
• 6:53
  of things that I spent a huge amount of
• 6:56
  time, especially in the first 12-18
• 6:58
  months, where I spend less time on them
• 7:00
  now, but it's still overhead, either a
• 7:02
  cost overhead or a time overhead or just
• 7:05
  a mental overhead because you have to
• 7:07
  remember to to do certain things and
• 7:09
  make sure that your compliance is in
• 7:10
  place and, you know, read notices from
• 7:12
  governments and that sort of thing.
• 7:14
  >> For a number of years I was a consultant
• 7:16
  at the Boston Consulting Group. Then at
• 7:18
  a startup called Raptor, I formed the
• 7:20
  advisory services group. And so, I've
• 7:22
  done consulting in sort of the formal
• 7:24
  discipline, but stand-alone like this,
• 7:27
  I've been doing it for 3 years. And one
• 7:29
  thing that is top of my mind is how can
• 7:31
  I put processes in place so that I have
• 7:35
  longevity? Because I'm setting this up
• 7:37
  that I want to do some version of this
• 7:40
  for 5, 10, 20 years. I actually have a
• 7:43
  sticky note on my on my wall right here
• 7:45
  to remind me that longevity requires
• 7:48
  both that I put the right structures in
• 7:50
  place so that not everything feels ad
• 7:52
  hoc, and that also I enjoy most of the
• 7:56
  job. And so, again, Greg mentioned to
• 7:59
  YouTube, I do not have a huge audience,
• 8:02
  but I love creating the content. I love
• 8:04
  sharing my thinking. And so, the reason
• 8:07
  for me to do this is there are large
• 8:10
  parts of the job now that I'm enjoying
• 8:13
  more than I was enjoying large parts of
• 8:15
  the job when I was last working for a
• 8:17
  big corporation. And so, that question
• 8:19
  on trade-offs that I'm sure we're going
• 8:21
  to get into, if you're going to go do
• 8:23
  this, you'd better find a way to be
• 8:25
  enjoying large parts of the job, or or
• 8:29
  don't even try.
• 8:30
  >> I think that's a really good segue to
• 8:32
  just this notion of of what the model
• 8:34
  is, right? So, you say the word
• 8:37
  consulting,
• 8:39
  you say the word advisory, sometimes we
• 8:41
  hear the word fractional. I'm a
• 8:44
  fractional COO or CMO or CRO or
• 8:47
  whatever. How do you kind of pull those
• 8:49
  apart and think of those as as buckets?
• 8:52
  >> Yeah, fractional I think is in almost in
• 8:54
  a class on its own, and I'll plug the
• 8:57
  fact that I actually interviewed a guy
• 8:59
  called Michael Elbaz on this probably
• 9:01
  now more than a year ago, and he was
• 9:03
  working as a fractional chief product
• 9:05
  officer. And the reason it came up was I
• 9:08
  think in the last couple of years, at
• 9:11
  least in tech and in the Bay Area, maybe
• 9:14
  in New York as well, you see senior
• 9:17
  people agreeing to take on a role that
• 9:19
  is less than full-time if they feel like
• 9:23
  they can get something out of it and
• 9:24
  help a company. And it tends to be in
• 9:28
  roles that are what I'm going to call
• 9:29
  non-core. You're not usually going to
• 9:32
  pull on someone to be a fractional CEO
• 9:35
  or head of sales. But if someone's got
• 9:38
  expertise around, you know, marketing or
• 9:41
  perhaps product, although that might be
• 9:43
  in a different category, or HR, maybe a
• 9:46
  CFO, those types of roles can perhaps be
• 9:50
  done at less than 100% of your time, one
• 9:53
  or two days a week. I've seen models
• 9:56
  where even the team in the company will
• 9:59
  report into that fractional person. And
• 10:02
  so that's a model where it can work for
• 10:06
  a number of years as the company grows,
• 10:09
  may even become a full-time gig, but I
• 10:11
  put that in a slightly different
• 10:13
  category than traditional advisory or
• 10:16
  consulting work.
• 10:18
  >> Can I Can I jump in for a minute cuz I
• 10:20
  think there's a really interesting point
• 10:21
  here, which is I think we all, the three
• 10:23
  of us certainly deal with this idea of
• 10:25
  scope creep.
• 10:27
  Right? We have a doc
• 10:29
  and an agreement that we put into place
• 10:30
  that outlines the arrangement and how
• 10:32
  many hours it takes and whatever. But in
• 10:35
  my experience, it's almost always can
• 10:37
  you do this? Can you add this? Can we do
• 10:39
  a little more for no additional no
• 10:41
  additional work? Is that more or less
• 10:42
  likely to happen in your opinion, you
• 10:44
  know, not having done necessarily done
• 10:46
  fractional work? In your opinion,
• 10:48
  someone's a fractional HR
• 10:50
  person for a startup, and that startup
• 10:52
  needs a turn on a doc, is it more or
• 10:55
  less likely or as likely for a
• 10:56
  fractional person to work three days
• 10:58
  instead of the two they agreed?
• 11:00
  >> I think I can mention this cuz it's on
• 11:01
  my LinkedIn. I've been working now for
• 11:04
  almost a year, essentially one day a
• 11:07
  week for Lyft in their advertising
• 11:09
  business, helping them with pricing and
• 11:10
  yield. And I don't know that if they
• 11:13
  would use the term that I'm a fractional
• 11:15
  yield management person, some of them
• 11:16
  might listen to this, but the reason
• 11:19
  that [laughter] it worked is they need
• 11:20
  some very specific expertise.
• 11:24
  And to your point about the doc,
• 11:26
  actually we started with a well-defined
• 11:28
  project, it was 10-week project, and a
• 11:30
  number of different things come up, you
• 11:33
  could call it scope creep. And I was
• 11:36
  like, I can help you with that. We're
• 11:37
  not going to get it done on the team
• 11:38
  week project. Do you want to just keep
• 11:40
  continuing the nature of the work that
• 11:42
  we've been doing together? And so, I
• 11:44
  think actually fractional can be a good
• 11:47
  example. Um it requires trust on both
• 11:51
  sides. It requires that they trust me to
• 11:53
  that I'm working at about the level I
• 11:55
  say that I would and that they're going
• 11:57
  to keep me in the loop. It requires that
• 12:00
  they get comfortable with the fact that
• 12:02
  there's somebody who's not full-time
• 12:04
  who's sitting in staff meetings or
• 12:06
  project meetings. And so, that again,
• 12:09
  they they have to trust that. I will
• 12:11
  plug them and say that that team at Lift
• 12:14
  is one of the most fantastic teams that
• 12:16
  I have had the opportunity to work with,
• 12:18
  which is why it's a pleasure for me to
• 12:20
  be involved in working with them. Uh and
• 12:23
  I'm not clearly getting as much out of
• 12:25
  it as hopefully they're getting out of
• 12:26
  working with me.
• 12:27
  Long answer to to your question. Um it
• 12:30
  doesn't need sincerely need to lead to
• 12:32
  scope creep so long as there are good
• 12:34
  expectations on both sides.
• 12:36
  >> On the point of fractional,
• 12:39
  there's a group called Fractionals
• 12:41
  United that was formed by a woman that
• 12:44
  that I only know through LinkedIn, but
• 12:45
  it's a really
• 12:47
  strong, large group. It's been around
• 12:49
  for maybe two-ish years at this point
• 12:51
  and they're quite um passionate about
• 12:54
  the definition of fractional. They're
• 12:56
  like, people throw it around and it
• 12:57
  means lots of things. They're like, we
• 12:58
  believe it means being deeply embedded
• 13:00
  and I don't have their definition in
• 13:01
  front of me, but they're very passionate
• 13:03
  about being embedded in the organization
• 13:05
  in a leadership role, often, you know,
• 13:08
  with team reporting to you, that sort of
• 13:10
  thing. We're going to post some
• 13:12
  resources. We've all got some to share,
• 13:14
  but I'll add that one to the list
• 13:15
  because for anybody that's interested in
• 13:17
  the fractional path, they're a really
• 13:19
  good group with some really good
• 13:20
  resources and thoughts on how to
• 13:22
  approach it, how to avoid that scope
• 13:24
  creep, and how to manage within that
• 13:27
  fractional model as they define it.
• 13:29
  >> I would want to put fractional as
• 13:31
  quickly to the side with a
• 13:32
  >> [laughter]
• 13:33
  >> Well, it it it all just has so much as a
• 13:36
  part of it. It's just to shift into
• 13:37
  consulting versus advisory. And I don't
• 13:39
  know if you agree or not, but the way
• 13:41
  that I've always thought of the two is
• 13:43
  consulting was more consultative and
• 13:45
  ongoing versus advisory, which felt more
• 13:47
  project based, you know, like limited
• 13:49
  based me
• 13:50
  >> I don't delimit it that way, but I do
• 13:52
  agree that there's a couple of very
• 13:54
  different flavors. And and one the way I
• 13:57
  think about it in my mind is are you
• 14:00
  providing expertise that the company
• 14:04
  doesn't have themselves? I put that more
• 14:06
  in advisory. You're literally giving
• 14:08
  them opinion, advice, experience because
• 14:12
  this is something that at least in that
• 14:14
  company stage of development is not core
• 14:17
  to a function that they need to create
• 14:19
  for themselves.
• 14:20
  >> [gasps]
• 14:20
  >> As opposed to
• 14:22
  something that's more like staff
• 14:24
  augmentation, meaning they need business
• 14:27
  analysis, they need data analysis, maybe
• 14:29
  they need some operational support.
• 14:32
  And and in that world, contracting and
• 14:35
  consulting could almost be used
• 14:36
  interchangeably because it's just a
• 14:39
  third party coming in to help with a set
• 14:41
  of services. And so, both are are ripe
• 14:45
  for AI to displace them, but I would
• 14:48
  argue the staff augmentation even more
• 14:51
  so because by its very nature, it's
• 14:54
  well-defined processes and is
• 14:57
  potentially very repeatable. Whereas
• 14:59
  advisory, hopefully you are delivering a
• 15:02
  very specific expertise.
• 15:04
  >> So, let's shift again here a little bit.
• 15:08
  We touched on this earlier, but
• 15:09
  consulting versus full-time work, let's
• 15:12
  just go a little bit deeper there. How
• 15:14
  do you think about that?
• 15:16
  >> So, I see people consulting potentially
• 15:19
  as a path to a full-time gig, and that's
• 15:24
  fine. That can be like an extended date.
• 15:27
  You get to see the company, and you get
• 15:29
  to see all of the good and the bad
• 15:31
  associated with it, and they get to see
• 15:34
  whether you show up and you are the
• 15:36
  person that they hope that you will be
• 15:39
  from from the interview process. And so,
• 15:41
  that can have benefit, and also can be a
• 15:43
  time when if a company doesn't even have
• 15:45
  the budget available to bring on a
• 15:47
  full-time person, it can be a way of
• 15:49
  testing and while they're trying to find
• 15:51
  that budget. The model of doing a series
• 15:54
  of different gigs over many years, the
• 15:57
  way I think I don't know about you,
• 15:58
  Jeff, but I know Greg and I do do this.
• 16:01
  You've made a statement, I am doing this
• 16:05
  work as who I am for this period of
• 16:07
  time. I'm not looking for a full-time
• 16:10
  role with a company. And the reason I
• 16:12
  think it's an interesting thing to say
• 16:14
  right now is I was I was recently on a
• 16:16
  call and somebody was complaining about
• 16:18
  the fact that they had recently lost
• 16:20
  their job. They were a few months out of
• 16:23
  work, and they weren't getting
• 16:25
  consulting gigs the way that they
• 16:27
  thought they would as as they had
• 16:28
  previously. And I said, "Look, part of
• 16:31
  it may be that companies are trying to
• 16:33
  work out, are you really serious about
• 16:36
  being a consultant, or is it just you're
• 16:40
  trying to date to get a full-time gig?"
• 16:42
  And until you establish that track
• 16:45
  record,
• 16:46
  uh it's it's going to be more difficult.
• 16:48
  And I think particularly with consulting
• 16:50
  and getting a reputation as a
• 16:52
  consultant, it is one of those things
• 16:54
  where you have to get two or three years
• 16:56
  in to one people believe that you're in
• 16:59
  it to to really continue that type of
• 17:02
  work. And then actually you start
• 17:04
  getting referrals, repeat business,
• 17:06
  where people have worked with you in one
• 17:08
  company, move to another company.
• 17:10
  They're like, "Man, I've seen this
• 17:12
  problem before. I know that we called in
• 17:14
  James, he helped us a lot." And so, you
• 17:16
  start to get these sort of secondary
• 17:18
  effects from just longevity being being
• 17:21
  done the role. And so again, long-winded
• 17:24
  way of saying, when you're doing
• 17:27
  consulting, I think as somebody going
• 17:29
  into that, you need to be clear in your
• 17:32
  own mind, why are you doing this work?
• 17:34
  Are you doing it just cuz you need the
• 17:35
  paycheck for a short period of time? Are
• 17:38
  you doing it because you actually hope
• 17:39
  to get employed in that company? Are you
• 17:41
  doing it because you think that you can
• 17:43
  help them in the short term and partly
• 17:45
  you want to do a project so you can get
• 17:47
  experience that you can help share with
• 17:49
  others. There are a whole host of
• 17:50
  different reasons and it helps you and
• 17:53
  it helps them if you're clear as to your
• 17:55
  motivation.
• 17:56
  >> That clarity is really key and I had
• 17:58
  that exact thing you just described
• 18:00
  happen to me like it I was maybe a year
• 18:02
  year and a half in and realized like one
• 18:05
  or two people said to me, oh well, I
• 18:07
  keep waiting for you to go get a real
• 18:08
  job. So I haven't been sending you leads
• 18:11
  or making introductions and I was like,
• 18:12
  oh okay, I didn't realize that was a
• 18:14
  problem for me cuz I was like this is my
• 18:17
  path. I'm not planning to go get another
• 18:19
  corporate job and so I started being
• 18:21
  much more intentional in my
• 18:22
  communication one-on-one and on LinkedIn
• 18:25
  and you know, in in any venue where I
• 18:27
  had the opportunity to say this is my
• 18:29
  path. I am a business owner and talking
• 18:31
  about it in in the future tense to
• 18:33
  really try to be deliberate, but even if
• 18:36
  that's not your path, that's okay.
• 18:37
  There's no right or wrong answer here. I
• 18:39
  think as you say the clarity is really
• 18:40
  what's what's key in that.
• 18:42
  >> Yeah, I think it's whatever hits your
• 18:45
  specific thing at a specific point in
• 18:47
  your career, right? Like James, you said
• 18:48
  you were a consultant and then you went
• 18:50
  back to corporate life and then you
• 18:51
  consulted again and you went back to
• 18:52
  corporate I mean that's okay also. When
• 18:54
  I I'm going to sort of go a little off
• 18:55
  script here and and kind of flip this to
• 18:57
  the other side which is James, you
• 18:59
  talked about the idea of why a company
• 19:02
  would bring consultants on also, right?
• 19:05
  You fill a specific need or expertise
• 19:07
  that the company doesn't have. I'll also
• 19:09
  throw out there there are financial
• 19:12
  incentives for companies to hire
• 19:14
  consultants in the short term rather
• 19:16
  than bringing on a full-time employee
• 19:17
  also. I don't want to look past that
• 19:19
  because honestly, it's a fairly
• 19:21
  significant part of my sales pitch. Like
• 19:23
  you bring me in, I'm 60% of the cost of
• 19:26
  a full-time employee because you don't
• 19:27
  pay me benefits, there's no 401K match,
• 19:30
  there's no other, you know, total
• 19:32
  rewards that come along with that. I'm a
• 19:34
  pure cash play and I'm in and out in
• 19:38
  most cases, not in all cases, but I'm in
• 19:39
  I'm in and out and that's that. And like
• 19:42
  there is some financial incentive for a
• 19:43
  company to do this also. We touched on
• 19:45
  this a bit earlier and I did want to
• 19:47
  come back to it actually because this is
• 19:49
  a really important piece. This has to do
• 19:51
  with
• 19:52
  when you are thinking through what it
• 19:55
  means for you to be a consultant, you
• 19:57
  talked a little bit about the idea of
• 19:58
  being an individual consultant, one
• 20:01
  person running a small consulting
• 20:03
  business on your own, or do I want to
• 20:06
  start to build
• 20:07
  a consulting firm with a a group of
• 20:09
  people. I'm not saying it's easy to take
• 20:11
  on consulting as an individual. It's not
• 20:14
  easy, but it's easier for sure because
• 20:17
  the only person you're guiding is
• 20:18
  yourself. When you start to bring on
• 20:20
  another employee, there's a flexibility
• 20:23
  limitation there to some extent, right?
• 20:25
  You can't just close the doors because
• 20:27
  there's people under you that are
• 20:28
  relying on you for a paycheck, or at
• 20:29
  least at a minimum part of whatever
• 20:31
  their overall rewards are. Maybe they're
• 20:33
  a consultant that consults for a bunch
• 20:34
  of consultancies. I mean, you know, I
• 20:36
  think we've all probably dipped into
• 20:38
  other people's consultancy well that
• 20:40
  kind of fill the gap. So talk a little
• 20:42
  bit about the difference or the thought
• 20:43
  process around what it means to create a
• 20:45
  consulting firm that's just for yourself
• 20:47
  or one that might
• 20:49
  be a larger thing for other people as
• 20:50
  well.
• 20:51
  >> Well, I think again, you have to start
• 20:53
  with your motivation. All right, and I
• 20:56
  stumbled back into consulting because I
• 20:58
  actually started creating the YouTube
• 21:00
  videos. That my goal there was simply I
• 21:04
  have time on my hands and I want to
• 21:05
  share my thinking with the industry.
• 21:07
  I've got a lot that I want to share. And
• 21:09
  in that action,
• 21:11
  um people reached out and said, "Hey,
• 21:13
  saw your video. We actually have that
• 21:16
  problem. Can we talk to you about
• 21:18
  helping us solve it?" And so, I would
• 21:21
  say 80 to 90% of my consulting work over
• 21:25
  the last 3 years has come through either
• 21:28
  my YouTube channels or the LinkedIn uh
• 21:31
  promotions that I do of the videos. And
• 21:34
  so, for me, I didn't come into the say I
• 21:37
  want to build a big consulting business
• 21:38
  that I could potentially sell later. If
• 21:41
  you have aspirations to sell your
• 21:44
  consulting business, you need to be
• 21:46
  bringing on people because it's the
• 21:48
  people and the processes that you may
• 21:50
  later sell. You need to create
• 21:53
  structures and repeatability in your
• 21:55
  projects because if you are doing
• 21:58
  similar types of projects, meaning even
• 22:02
  just the structure is the same in terms
• 22:04
  of how you do an identification of the
• 22:05
  problem, how you work with the client to
• 22:07
  solve it. Those kinds of processes can
• 22:10
  be taught because eventually you need to
• 22:12
  be able to get to the stage where the
• 22:14
  people who are on your team
• 22:16
  uh able to get the client's confidence
• 22:20
  without you being in the room. And this
• 22:22
  was eye-opening to me back at my job 20
• 22:25
  years ago. I sold a project to Facebook
• 22:28
  around how to do their pricing.
• 22:30
  This was like 2007. Facebook was tiny at
• 22:34
  the time. But they had very high
• 22:36
  expectations around how I worked with
• 22:39
  them. And I was trying to do other
• 22:41
  projects at the same time. So, I was
• 22:42
  trying to only be down in Palo Alto a
• 22:44
  day or two a week. And I was trying to
• 22:47
  have my junior people be down there. But
• 22:50
  I got very clear feedback from them,
• 22:53
  "Hey, we bought you. We need this
• 22:55
  project to be successful. We aren't
• 22:58
  getting the value out of this project if
• 23:00
  you're just show you're having your
• 23:02
  junior business analyst show up. And so
• 23:04
  that was eye-opening to me then. And so
• 23:07
  it's often on the back of my mind of if
• 23:10
  I were to build a bigger organization
• 23:12
  with more people,
• 23:14
  those people that I'd bring on, I need
• 23:16
  to both, to your point, hire the right
• 23:18
  people, grow them, ensure that they get
• 23:21
  to a stage where they can be credible
• 23:23
  around the types of things that we do
• 23:25
  without me in the room, and probably
• 23:27
  would need to take on a slightly
• 23:29
  different type of project. Because right
• 23:31
  now, I've had the luxury that most of
• 23:34
  the projects I do are actually very
• 23:37
  different from each other. They're all
• 23:38
  in the space of digital advertising and
• 23:41
  how to make more money, but I haven't
• 23:43
  got to the stage yet where I'm like,
• 23:45
  "Oh, I'm doing the fourth version of
• 23:47
  let's do a rate card." So, if I were
• 23:50
  doing the fourth version of how let's do
• 23:52
  a rate card, I could pull in a person
• 23:55
  who didn't have my depth of expertise,
• 23:57
  make it a well-defined project,
• 23:59
  potentially sell it at a lower price
• 24:01
  point because I've got a more junior
• 24:03
  person doing it. It's a very different
• 24:05
  model. And so the key again is, you
• 24:08
  know, you don't want to embark on this
• 24:10
  without thinking through, "Why am I
• 24:13
  trying to bring on more people to do
• 24:15
  this work? What path does this take me
• 24:17
  down?" And now again, I'm not saying I
• 24:19
  won't go there, but for the last 3 years
• 24:22
  I've found that the advantage in me
• 24:25
  being stand-alone as an expert has
• 24:29
  allowed me to take on the a different
• 24:31
  type of project that I enjoy and that is
• 24:33
  more challenging. If I were to scale and
• 24:36
  bring on more people, I'd frankly
• 24:38
  probably have to do something that's a
• 24:39
  little bit more cookie-cutter.
• 24:41
  >> We've sort of teased AI a couple of
• 24:43
  times here now, and being a headwind on
• 24:45
  consulting, can you say just a little
• 24:47
  bit more about what you're seeing there
• 24:49
  and how you're thinking about AI?
• 24:51
  >> Yeah, I mean I think the one, it can
• 24:55
  help you as a consultant be more
• 24:56
  effective.
• 24:58
  But, the reason it's a potential
• 24:59
  headwind is I'm seeing a lot of clients
• 25:02
  or potential clients think that they can
• 25:04
  solve the problems themselves, that they
• 25:07
  might otherwise have pulled in a
• 25:08
  consultant for. The areas where clients
• 25:11
  should be using AI more include for
• 25:14
  around data analysis, around operational
• 25:17
  improvement. There's a whole host of
• 25:19
  areas where they should be doing it
• 25:21
  more. Where I've seen an interesting
• 25:24
  development
• 25:26
  are trying to actually do the strategy
• 25:29
  projects themselves, and they're pulling
• 25:31
  in AI.
• 25:32
  And as we all know, if you ask AI a
• 25:35
  question, it will give you an answer.
• 25:37
  And so, I had an interesting situation
• 25:39
  recently where I had a client who was
• 25:42
  using an AI agent, and they had come up
• 25:45
  with the solution to the project that I
• 25:49
  had been brought in to do. And so, that
• 25:52
  created a really interesting dynamic
• 25:54
  because first of all, I had to react to
• 25:56
  is this a good solution, a bad solution,
• 25:58
  to start to critique it. And one of the
• 26:01
  things that I realized had occurred was
• 26:03
  they had thrown the problem that they
• 26:06
  had at an agent, and hadn't actually
• 26:11
  thought about what are we trying to
• 26:13
  solve for? What is the objective
• 26:15
  function? And so, again, in my pricing
• 26:18
  world, you can have lots of things that
• 26:20
  you're trying to do. One objective might
• 26:22
  be I want to get my price realization
• 26:24
  up. Another one might be I want margin
• 26:26
  improvement. Another might just be I
• 26:28
  want cleaner packages that my clients
• 26:31
  understand better and are easier to buy.
• 26:34
  And so, as you think through all the
• 26:36
  different things you could be solving
• 26:37
  for,
• 26:38
  if you just throw this at an agent, it
• 26:40
  will come up with solution that may
• 26:42
  check the box on one of those, but may
• 26:44
  not actually be your most pressing
• 26:47
  business problem. And so, unless you
• 26:50
  have gone through the critical process
• 26:53
  of bringing in an expert to help you
• 26:55
  think through what are you trying to do.
• 26:57
  You can end up thinking you solved a
• 26:59
  problem and then a year or two later
• 27:02
  realize that you have put an
• 27:03
  infrastructure in place that actually
• 27:06
  isn't significantly better than you were
• 27:09
  before. And so I guess this is a word of
• 27:11
  caution and obviously self-promoting
• 27:14
  is that if you are thinking about a
• 27:17
  difficult problem and then in my case is
• 27:20
  a different difficult pricing or yield
• 27:22
  problem, make sure you get the expertise
• 27:24
  up front. It doesn't mean that that
• 27:26
  project can't be done faster with AI.
• 27:29
  Absolutely can, but you still want to
• 27:32
  make sure that you're asking the right
• 27:34
  questions at the start or you really run
• 27:37
  the risk of jumping to a solution that
• 27:40
  may not be a better solution. In fact,
• 27:42
  may actually put you in a worse
• 27:43
  situation.
• 27:44
  >> I was talking to a friend who works in
• 27:47
  HR recently who said when there's a
• 27:49
  request for new headcount that comes in,
• 27:51
  the whole line of follow-on is
• 27:54
  do we need this at all? Yes, we need it.
• 27:56
  Could AI do it? No, AI can't do it. Can
• 27:59
  we do it offshore? No, we can't do it
• 28:01
  offshore. Okay, if we need to do it in
• 28:03
  North America, then it needs to be in
• 28:04
  one of these cities that's not New York
• 28:06
  or San Francisco. And so I think that
• 28:09
  same sort of line of thinking comes into
• 28:12
  play when you're talking about do we
• 28:13
  hire a consultant or not? You're like,
• 28:14
  well, you know, wouldn't Claude give you
• 28:16
  a nice answer? Well, sure it will, but
• 28:17
  to your point,
• 28:19
  you know, you ask a question, you'll get
• 28:21
  an answer. It doesn't mean you got a
• 28:22
  good answer and you have to have enough
• 28:23
  depth of expertise to be able to think
• 28:26
  about what is the right question. I
• 28:28
  suppose if you train an AI enough on a
• 28:30
  deep enough problem, it might be good at
• 28:31
  it eventually, but uh
• 28:33
  sort of top-level model will give you an
• 28:35
  average answer rather than an expert
• 28:37
  answer.
• 28:38
  >> I actually think that the vanilla
• 28:41
  consulting that a lot of companies have
• 28:44
  managed to subsist on is going to go
• 28:47
  away. The stuff where there actually
• 28:49
  isn't that much value add. And so, at
• 28:52
  least my strategy has been to think
• 28:55
  about what are the problems that frankly
• 28:57
  only I can solve. And again, I'm in a
• 29:00
  very lucky {slash} privileged situation.
• 29:03
  But Greg, you and I, I I know both
• 29:06
  listen to David Fields, who you know,
• 29:08
  gives advice on consulting. And he has a
• 29:10
  quote. It's actually another sticky note
• 29:12
  I've got up here. The most reliable
• 29:15
  predictor of small consulting firms
• 29:17
  growth are one, the narrowness of the
• 29:21
  depth of their expertise,
• 29:23
  and two, the breadth of their rainmaking
• 29:26
  team.
• 29:27
  And those are two really interesting
• 29:29
  points, right? But let's just focus on
• 29:31
  point one, the narrowness of your
• 29:33
  expertise. You need to be known for
• 29:36
  something. You intro'd me as the Yield
• 29:38
  Doctor. I've only been doing this for 3
• 29:41
  years, and only been using the moniker
• 29:44
  for a year and a half. Because I felt
• 29:47
  like I needed to be known for something.
• 29:50
  It was, you know, without even using the
• 29:52
  Yield Doctor, what I was doing has
• 29:54
  stayed the same. But I need to be known
• 29:56
  as an expert in a very specific field.
• 29:59
  And I think that that's going to become
• 30:01
  even more important as we start to see
• 30:05
  AI take on some of the generic sort of
• 30:07
  operational type projects. And I think
• 30:10
  we are going to start to see some firms
• 30:12
  that don't have that specific expertise
• 30:15
  really start to struggle. I don't think
• 30:17
  we need to get into the value of having
• 30:19
  a broad business development team. Um
• 30:21
  but but it's it's this idea of AI slop,
• 30:26
  or throwing a problem at project AI. You
• 30:28
  will get a solution out. A very quickly
• 30:31
  and experienced executive is going to be
• 30:33
  able to tell if there's real quality
• 30:35
  thinking in there or not.
• 30:37
  >> AI is certainly eating some of the
• 30:38
  consulting work in the ways that we've
• 30:40
  been talking about here. But I actually
• 30:42
  heard of a large consultancy that has
• 30:44
  started billing out AI agents in the
• 30:46
  same way that they were billing out
• 30:47
  human consultants, which you know, if
• 30:49
  you're going to use AI, you've got to
• 30:51
  pay for your tokens somehow, and people
• 30:53
  understand the hourly rate, so maybe
• 30:55
  it's a slick solution to that, but it's
• 30:57
  also interesting that they would go as
• 30:59
  far as that and saying, "We're going to
• 31:01
  bill you machine time in the same way
• 31:02
  that we would have billed you human
• 31:04
  time."
• 31:04
  >> By the way, I think that the idea of
• 31:07
  consumers and lesser businesses paying
• 31:10
  for tokens is a function of the world
• 31:13
  we're in
• 31:14
  in the short and medium term. I don't
• 31:18
  think that persists long term. I think
• 31:20
  this is like the telecom models from
• 31:24
  early 2000 where they would charge on
• 31:26
  per minutes and data models cuz they
• 31:29
  didn't know how else to charge. I think
• 31:31
  we're going to see migration either to
• 31:33
  subscription base models or potentially
• 31:36
  to the value add, although obviously
• 31:38
  that's a difficult model. The The only
• 31:40
  reason I bring that up is I caution
• 31:42
  anyone linking their long-term viability
• 31:46
  to a token-based model.
• 31:47
  >> Yeah, agreed.
• 31:48
  >> Now, then one more thing actually. It's
• 31:50
  You need to be deep in your expertise
• 31:53
  and also innovative in your approach.
• 31:57
  Now, of course, everybody wants to be
• 31:58
  innovative, but the the reason I bring
• 32:00
  that up is most of the models can only
• 32:04
  pull from what's been done before.
• 32:08
  And even in something as specific as
• 32:10
  digital advertising, you'd think
• 32:12
  everything has been seen before.
• 32:15
  We constantly see innovation around ad
• 32:17
  products that get created, whether it's
• 32:19
  different types of bundles, the
• 32:21
  different ways they get displayed on the
• 32:23
  screen, and there is still tons of room
• 32:26
  for people to innovate. You won't end up
• 32:29
  with an innovative solution if you just
• 32:31
  throw it at an AI agent right now. And
• 32:34
  so, that's where real human expertise
• 32:37
  needs to come in. And again, that
• 32:39
  doesn't necessarily mean that somebody
• 32:40
  has to pull on a consultant. They can do
• 32:42
  it themselves if they know how to
• 32:44
  structure their thinking process.
• 32:46
  >> That's a great point. I mean, AI is
• 32:48
  effectively designed to homogenize
• 32:50
  everything. It takes the universe of
• 32:52
  data and it's trying to spit out a
• 32:54
  homogenized answer to whatever it is
• 32:55
  that you're looking for.
• 32:57
  It's fantastic point. All right. So,
• 33:00
  again, this episode is for folks
• 33:02
  thinking about maybe being consultants.
• 33:04
  So, I think we've got three last
• 33:06
  questions that we're going to sort of go
• 33:08
  around. Let's
• 33:09
  try to do these ones rapid-fire style.
• 33:12
  James, what would you say are your top
• 33:14
  pros and cons for being independent?
• 33:17
  >> My top pro is the independence and the
• 33:20
  flexibility.
• 33:22
  Uh the top negative, at least in the
• 33:24
  style that I've been doing it, is the
• 33:27
  lack of team, which is frankly why I
• 33:29
  reach out to people like you, Greg, and
• 33:31
  you and I chat every 2 weeks to compare
• 33:33
  notes and find other ways to to create
• 33:35
  that sense of team. And I I don't know
• 33:38
  if it's a pro or a con, but you only
• 33:41
  have yourself to blame. You know, you
• 33:43
  can't look at anybody else and say that
• 33:45
  they're the problem. You might look at
• 33:46
  the economy and say that that's part of
• 33:48
  the reason you're struggling, but at the
• 33:49
  end of day, it's all on you.
• 33:52
  >> What about you, Jeff?
• 33:54
  >> Yeah, I mean, I think flexibility has to
• 33:55
  be the top pro. I've got two kids. I
• 33:57
  have an almost 17-year-old and a
• 33:59
  13-year-old, and the time that I've been
• 34:00
  able to spend with them over the last
• 34:02
  couple of years and still fit my work
• 34:04
  into that has been I I mean, it it's
• 34:07
  truly it's been a gift to me, I think.
• 34:10
  Honestly, the con
• 34:12
  all of the things that you take for
• 34:13
  granted in working in corporate life are
• 34:15
  the con.
• 34:17
  Health insurance and having to pay for
• 34:19
  that separate like all of those little
• 34:20
  things that kind of come with a
• 34:22
  corporate job, the trade-off to that is,
• 34:24
  you know, you're reporting to a
• 34:25
  corporate master, of course. So, it's
• 34:26
  the opposite side of flexibility, but I
• 34:28
  think the top con is all of those
• 34:31
  foundational things that come with a
• 34:32
  corporate job that you just sort of
• 34:34
  don't think about until you have to.
• 34:36
  Yeah.
• 34:37
  >> Yeah, I mean from my perspective, I
• 34:38
  certainly echo the point on independence
• 34:41
  and flexibility. I would say
• 34:44
  it's not just the how you spend your
• 34:46
  time, but it's also what you get to work
• 34:48
  on, what you choose to be able to work
• 34:50
  on. I've really enjoyed that. It's been
• 34:53
  an opportunity to explore new and
• 34:54
  different things and you get different
• 34:57
  kinds of work and work opportunities.
• 34:59
  The lack of team, I would say I would
• 35:01
  sort of describe that more as isolation.
• 35:03
  It can be It can feel isolating at
• 35:05
  times, so it is really important to have
• 35:07
  community in different ways. It's also
• 35:10
  fun to explore those things though and
• 35:12
  the revenue is unpredictable or it
• 35:14
  certainly is for me and I would say for
• 35:16
  every consultant I know, like it doesn't
• 35:18
  mean that you're not eating some months.
• 35:20
  It just means that it's like any small
• 35:22
  business, you can't always predict what
• 35:23
  it's going to look like.
• 35:25
  If somebody is thinking about becoming
• 35:28
  an independent consultant, what would
• 35:29
  you say your top tip is? Jeff, why don't
• 35:32
  you start and then we'll have James
• 35:34
  follow on.
• 35:35
  >> I'll be very brief on this one. It truly
• 35:38
  is if you're thinking about being an
• 35:39
  independent consultant, you really have
• 35:42
  to think through what it means to
• 35:44
  weather what you just described and
• 35:46
  whether you can or not, right? Cuz there
• 35:48
  are times Q1 can be very fallow,
• 35:50
  specifically, right? Everybody is
• 35:52
  figuring out what their year looks like.
• 35:54
  They don't necessarily want to spend
• 35:55
  like
• 35:56
  the ability to weather those spikes, I
• 35:58
  think is something you really need to
• 35:59
  wrap your head around.
• 36:00
  >> James.
• 36:01
  >> I've got a few and I'll quote offering
• 36:03
  David Fields again, only to set up my
• 36:06
  answer, but he has a saying, "Remember,
• 36:08
  it's about them, not about you."
• 36:11
  And I think that's super important. You
• 36:14
  have to remember that you need to
• 36:16
  deliver value to them on the problems
• 36:19
  that they want solved, not the ones that
• 36:21
  you are very good at solving. And so, I
• 36:25
  can't go into each client and say, "Oh,
• 36:27
  you you clearly need a rate card
• 36:29
  refresh." I need to go in and listen to
• 36:32
  what they think that their problems are
• 36:35
  and help them solve those problems. And
• 36:38
  so, I think that's the first key, not
• 36:41
  trying to sell your series of services
• 36:44
  where you know you're good, listening to
• 36:46
  the problems that they have and working
• 36:48
  out how you can add value around that.
• 36:51
  And I think that the second piece, and
• 36:53
  this is for somebody really getting into
• 36:54
  it, is be prepared to have explicit
• 36:57
  conversations up front before you start
• 37:00
  working around how to work with you and
• 37:04
  those expectations. Jeff used the
• 37:07
  conversation I think the question
• 37:09
  for flexible work is this scope creep.
• 37:12
  You need to have conversations around
• 37:15
  what is the project really going to be,
• 37:17
  how are we delivering value? You need to
• 37:20
  have those conversations and also, just
• 37:22
  frankly, how to work with you is the
• 37:24
  best way. An hourly rate, a daily rate,
• 37:28
  a fee for the overall project. There are
• 37:29
  all sorts of different models and it's
• 37:32
  important to think about the fact that
• 37:34
  many of the people who might buy your
• 37:35
  consulting services may never have
• 37:38
  worked with a consultant before, may
• 37:40
  never have paid a consultant. And so,
• 37:42
  they're looking to you for guidance as
• 37:45
  to what the model should even be.
• 37:48
  >> Those are great points and
• 37:50
  I'm also a fan of David Fields and he
• 37:53
  talks about it as right side up
• 37:54
  thinking, but it's really just being
• 37:56
  client-centric, which I feel like every
• 37:58
  company ever has a value of being
• 38:00
  customer-centric, but
• 38:02
  it really is critical and it's harder to
• 38:04
  do, especially when you're a consultant,
• 38:06
  than than you might expect at first, but
• 38:08
  it's so valuable.
• 38:10
  For me, I would say, and this is one
• 38:12
  that I've started in the last, I don't
• 38:15
  know, maybe 2 years being much more
• 38:17
  focused on when people ask me this
• 38:18
  question, but
• 38:19
  have an honest conversation with
• 38:21
  yourself and with your significant other
• 38:23
  about how much money you need to make
• 38:25
  and on what time horizon because then
• 38:27
  you can really think about current
• 38:29
  clients you have, any current
• 38:30
  opportunities you can foresee, is it
• 38:32
  going to help you achieve those
• 38:34
  financial needs that you have? And I
• 38:37
  think it's important to separate like
• 38:38
  what do you need versus what do you want
• 38:40
  because you know, if you can at least
• 38:43
  meet the minimum threshold, then it
• 38:44
  might give you what you need to move
• 38:45
  forward, which may still fall short of
• 38:47
  where you might aspire to get to. So it
• 38:50
  really helps give you that focus. And
• 38:52
  then we talked about this earlier, but
• 38:54
  also just be honest with yourself, but
• 38:56
  also be clear with the market. Are you
• 38:57
  approaching consulting as a short-term
• 39:00
  or a long-term play for your career? And
• 39:03
  either way, you need to treat that as a
• 39:05
  business.
• 39:06
  And then I guess bringing it home. So
• 39:08
  Jeff, I'll start with you and then I'll
• 39:10
  go and James, we can give you the last
• 39:12
  word, but are there any resources and
• 39:14
  we'll put all of these in the show
• 39:15
  notes, but you know, what are some of
• 39:17
  your favorite resources or approaches to
• 39:20
  keeping your knowledge sharp and your
• 39:22
  practice fresh and your go-to things
• 39:24
  that you like as you have built up your
• 39:26
  business?
• 39:27
  >> Most of my consulting related,
• 39:29
  specifically consulting related, stuff
• 39:32
  has to do with conversations like these.
• 39:33
  Tapping into other consultants,
• 39:35
  understanding what it is. Like one of
• 39:37
  the reasons Greg and I do this podcast
• 39:39
  at all is because Greg was consulting
• 39:40
  for me at my last job at OpenX and was
• 39:43
  an invaluable resource to me as I began
• 39:45
  to spin this up. I sat and I'm like, how
• 39:47
  do I even put a proposal together? And
• 39:48
  Greg was like, don't worry, I have a
• 39:49
  template for you. Like things like that.
• 39:51
  So tapping into these universal
• 39:53
  resources
• 39:54
  that you talked about the fractional
• 39:57
  co-op, I would love to put together a
• 39:58
  consulting co-op. And some of that might
• 40:01
  be inbound, hey, I don't have the
• 40:03
  expertise here. Hey James, you do.
• 40:05
  Do you want me to connect you guys?
• 40:06
  Things like that. And we do it
• 40:08
  informally, so I'm not even necessarily
• 40:10
  sure it needs a formal, you know,
• 40:11
  consulting co-op structure, but like
• 40:13
  that's the kind of stuff. When I think
• 40:15
  think keeping my knowledge fresh around
• 40:16
  the industry, you know, I go down the
• 40:18
  trades every morning and it truly is
• 40:20
  like what's up on Media Post, what's up
• 40:21
  on Business Insider, what's up on Ad
• 40:24
  Exchanger, what's up on Digiday, and I
• 40:26
  just pound through those. That's like
• 40:28
  over my coffee, 30 minutes every morning
• 40:30
  reliably. It's like I journal for 30
• 40:32
  minutes, I do that for 30 minutes, and
• 40:33
  then I
• 40:34
  I go screaming into my day, as they say.
• 40:39
  For me, we've referenced David Fields,
• 40:41
  it's David A. Fields Consulting. He has
• 40:44
  a whole bunch of resources. He's been at
• 40:45
  this a long time and he's one of several
• 40:47
  consultants who are there to help
• 40:49
  consultants build their businesses. I've
• 40:51
  found that I really like his system and
• 40:54
  his approach to things. So, he's got a
• 40:56
  free newsletter that I would definitely
• 40:58
  recommend anybody thinking about this.
• 40:59
  He's also got a book that's you can buy
• 41:01
  on Amazon, it's not too expensive.
• 41:03
  Really great resources.
• 41:05
  And then the other person who I think is
• 41:07
  really interesting and worth following
• 41:09
  is Bradley Jacobs. He's a founder of a
• 41:11
  company called My Lance, which you can
• 41:12
  follow on LinkedIn. And he's also got a
• 41:15
  whole bunch of resources that you can
• 41:16
  follow, but he is I I would say sort of
• 41:19
  closest to the fractional model is how I
• 41:21
  think about him, but he's very much
• 41:23
  about helping ex-corporates build up
• 41:25
  their businesses and he's got some
• 41:27
  really
• 41:28
  great resources and ways to think about
• 41:30
  that. James, what about you?
• 41:32
  >> You've already listed all my favorite
• 41:34
  resources. So, the only thing I'll say
• 41:37
  is there is a technique that you can use
• 41:40
  to find out where you should be
• 41:42
  consulting. And again, I said, you know,
• 41:43
  go in and solve the problem that's most
• 41:45
  pressing. Is every conversation you have
• 41:48
  in the industry, even if it's not with a
• 41:50
  prospect, ask them what the biggest
• 41:53
  problem or pain point are that they're
• 41:55
  facing. And you're going to get a lot of
• 41:57
  information that's going to help you
• 41:58
  think about how you should be
• 42:00
  approaching your business and the types
• 42:02
  of problems that you solve and how you
• 42:05
  need to evolve your business. So, that's
• 42:07
  that's just one tip.
• 42:08
  >> That's a great tip. James, thank you so
• 42:10
  much for joining us. And for the
• 42:12
  audience, you can check out James's
• 42:14
  YouTube channel. Again, it's called The
• 42:15
  Yield Doctor and we will be back again
• 42:19
  next week. Jeff, do you want to read us
• 42:21
  out?
• 42:22
  >> Absolutely. This episode was hosted and
• 42:24
  produced by Jeff Wahlen and Greg
• 42:26
  McDonald with production support from
• 42:28
  Jess Dewees. Please follow the show on
• 42:30
  your favorite podcast app or on YouTube.
• 42:33
  If you or someone you know would make a
• 42:34
  great guest, we'd love to hear from you.
• 42:36
  Email us at leadership in
• 42:38
  podcast@gmail.com.
• 42:40
  And again, thanks for listening.