Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / NT Police Association Vice Secretary Lisa Bayliss

Transcript

NT Police Association Vice Secretary Lisa Bayliss · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We've had a lot of discussion over the last twenty
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: four hours about raising the age of criminal responsibility and
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: what it's going to mean. But I think that a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: lot of people are wondering what it's going to mean
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to the Northern Territory Police Force, who do, indeed, you know,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: have to deal with the issues of crime that we
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: experience each and every day. Now we know the Northern
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Territory Police Association have come out and said that they
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: staunchly oppose the Labor governments proposed legislation to raise the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: age of criminal responsibility. Northern Territory Police Association Senior Vice
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: President Lisa Bayless joins me on the line. Good morning
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to you, Lisa, Good morning Katie, Lisa, pretty strong words,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: staunchly opposing the proposed legislation.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Why look, we see that this legislative reform, it's not
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: going to stop the crimes being committed by youth defenders.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: It simply means that they're not going to be held accountable.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And so what do you think is going to happen?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, like from that real sort of so that
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: real operational level, what do you think's going to happen? Say,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: if we've got you know, kids that are under the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: age of twelve out on the streets, they've engaged in
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: a break in. What will be the reaction or what
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: will be the operational following on from the police.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, obviously we're still going to be attending
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: jobs that were crimes being committed, which is what the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: expectation is the people ring the police we attend. But
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the reality is, if you've got a child that's under
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: the age of twelve that's committing offenses and there's no
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: criminal criminality around it, our hands are going to be tied.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: We're not going to be able to arrest the children.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: We're going to have victims who are going to be
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: quite distressed about the fact that we've got ongoing crimes
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: happening and no one been HOWD accountable. And I look
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: at the government saying that we're going to have these
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: programs in place that are going to look at early
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: intervention and changing things. Well, I would say to the
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: government that probably they might need to make sure those
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: programs are working first if they even consider these changes.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was exactly the discussion that we're having during
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the week. That was a bit earlier this morning. I
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: look the Attorney General Chancey Paikin said that he would
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: give that assurance to the community that, you know, the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: legislation would not be passed until he was satisfied that
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: there were those programs in place. But Lisa, you know,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: do we need a bit of of you know, evidence
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: that they're programs that are going to work first?
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, absolutely, Katie. I think we would like to
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: see some KPIs on the these proposed programs and how
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: they actually how they're successful. I mean, we have programs
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: in place now, we have used di version, and we
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: have children that are that are quite young that go
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: through those programs, and there is there is a there
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: is success with some of those programs, which is which
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is fantastic, and it diverts children away from the criminal
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: justice system. Jo, I don't understand. We've got we've got
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: mechanisms in place right now that allow for that. If
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: you simply remove push the age up and say that
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: these children are no longer criminally responsible for their behavior,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: you're actually not going to address the offending that they're doing.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: The community is not going to be safer for these changes,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and I know it's really uncomfortable as a community to
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that we've got children that are as young as
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: nine and ten and eleven years of age who are
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: committing serious criminal offending. They're committing aggravated robberies, they're committing
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: aggravated assaults. And unless we actually think about what's important
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: to the community to protect the community, we've got victims,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: We've got the harm that's done to them. What about
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: those people? What about being able to go out safely
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: and know that you're not going to be robbed, You're
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: not going to be assaulted by children at this age.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: And it is uncomfortable, but we need to acknowledge that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: the criminal justice system provides support for four offenders to
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: actually be diverted away from going into detention, but it
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: also provides consequences for them to acknowledge the harm that
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: they've done. And I know around the use diversion a
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: whole there's a whole range of measures around restorative justice
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: to bring those children into a place to acknowledge the
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: things that they've done is wrong, and also to face
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: their victims, to face the community and hopefully change their behavior.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: But by simply saying that you're under the age of
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: twelve and you don't have to accept responsibility for your behavior.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: That is not the way that the community expects the
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: government to address our crime problem. Put these they're talking about,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: these early intervention programs. Let's see these programs get established.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: They've been in government for six years. We would expect
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: that these changes around providing programs and support for youth
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: offending should have been done a lot sooner. But to
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: simply change the legislation and say, oh, we're going to
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: develop these programs, well, let's develop these programs. And much
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: like anyone in the community, we don't want to see
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the Police Association, we don't want to see youth being
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: locked up, but we also don't want to see our
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: community being exposed to ongoing affairs violent offenders. There actually
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: needs to be consequences for that behavior.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Lisa, what's been the reaction from police over the last
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: twenty four hours. So officers, those rank and file officers,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: what are they saying to the Police Association.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: They're actually quite upset because dealing with the intensive labor
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: around when you go and attend a job with a
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: youth and a youth is taken into custody by police,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: it's actually quite a labor intensive role that we have
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: we can't. Usually we don't take them into the watchhouse.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: We have to take them to a responsible adult. If
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: we don't have a responsible adult available, we have to
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: take them to the care of territory families. And often
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: the children that are out committing offending in the middle
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: of the night, we have a lot of difficulty getting
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: in touch with people from territory families. And then the
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: time around that whole process, you eventually might get them
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: to a place of safety, you leave them in the
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: care of someone and you drive away. And then often
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: these children they absconded and they go somewhere else again
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and police get caught again. So in those circumstances, you're
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: actually not able to protect the communities. You've got children
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: that are continually continually engaging in that kind of behavior,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: criminal behavior, and we're not talking any social behavior. I'm
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: not talking about kids who are maybe you know, running
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: around the streets and swearing and you know, misbehaving in
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: that sense. We're talking about children who are breaking into
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: into properties, or they're they're holding service station attendance up,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: or they're they're resulting people randomly on the street. That's
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the kind of offending that we're talking about.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: So do you feel as though it's not only going
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: to create difficulties for the territory police, but it's also
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: going to waste their time?
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we haven't. The difficulty is is often with
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: these sorts of proposed changes, there's no detail about how
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: that's actually going to play out the police and even
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: though we've been told police will still be investigating crime. Absolutely,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: but you know, you think about if police are a
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: called to a job and let's say to a school
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: and you've got a child who's maybe eleven years old
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and they've assaulted another child in the school who assaulted
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: a teacher. Really, if they're not criminally responsible for their behavior,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: it's not a crime and it shouldn't be police attending
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: because we're actually not going to be taking any action
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: in that sense. We might take a statement from the victim,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: but there's no crime that's been committed, and I'd be saying,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: ring territory families, it shouldn't be police attending.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: And so, Lisa, is that where we're at now that realistically,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: if this passes that you know that territory families are
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: going to have to attend some of these incidents rather
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: than the police.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Well, if there's no crime being committed, it's not the
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: responsibility of police. Wow.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I mean it opens up a real different discussion, doesn't it,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Because if, like you've said, and like he's you know,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the government said, if they're no longer criminally responsible, so
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: they're no longer deemed to be committing a crime, then
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: it's not up to the police to deal with it,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: is what you're saying.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty much pretty much on par I mean,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it's like anything you call the police, we usually pick
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: up the slack for everything. Police will attend. But if
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: you've got an eleven year old committing who's committed an offense,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: well it's not an offense anymore. I'm sorry, but we
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: can't do anything ring territory families or ring ring the
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: child's parent and get them to attend.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Wow. How do you think this is all going to
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: play out within the community, Lisa?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Look, I think it's like everyone who's scratching their head thinking,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: how is this going to enhance community safety? How is
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: this going to improve what we're currently saying. And again,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I understand the concept around we don't want to see
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: children in custody. I understand that everyone everyone feels the same.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: But if you've got serious offending that's occurring when I'm
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: talking violent crimes where we've aggravated assaults, aggravat to the
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: robberies that these children this age are committing it. What
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: happens in a couple of years time if we push
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: the age down again, What if it suddenly we've got
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: eight year olds that are doing it? And I'm my
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: concern around raising the age is that that age group
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: between beteen ten and twelve who currently there are consequences,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: we're going to say there's no more consequences. We're probably
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: going to be expanding who's actually going to be committing
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: crimes because the kids, they tell police, now, there's nothing
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: you can do. You can't touch us where you know
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: we're under we're under the age of twelve. They say
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: that to police, Now you can't touch as I'm under
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: the age of ten, I'm under the age of fourteen,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: and we know that the consequences in the courts. Currently
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: there is a diversion process that a lot of these
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: children go through and they know there's no consequences when
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I go through that process, and the programs that should
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: be you know that are offered to the children. It's
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: meant we're meant to see a change happening, but we
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: actually haven't. We've seen we've seen the age of serious
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: offending has actually been lowered, and it's quite concerning as
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: a community.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa, I think what you're saying this morning is going
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: to resonate with a lot of people. They'll be feeling
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: the same way as what our police are feeling. And
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that, from what you've said, police have contacted you,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: they're pretty upset by what's happened. Yeah, I think there's
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: a lot more discussion to be had in this space, I.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Think, so, Okatie, Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Lisa, thanks so much for your time this morning. I
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: really appreciate it.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: No, thank you can thank you.