Latest / Conversations with Dad / All about mindfulness
Transcript
- Mbrownstein3485: Good morning, Dad. Stanley Brownstein: Good morning. Mbrownstein3485: And it's different b that we're speaking in the morning and we're actually speaking in the same house. ⁓ we're recording on a Friday where my kids are here, I'm here, and dad's down in the in his office and I'm in the dining room. So that's kind of neat. And also it's funny that the way it works, at least logistically, it's like kinda hard to actually be in the same place, even though that would probably be the make the most sense in terms of conversations, but it's also neat to have it recorded. Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Mbrownstein3485: cool. So we took a a week off to recuperate and be up to having some longer conversations. And so where we left off last time, we were having conversations about the work and how it evolved in terms of In terms of the lessons, in terms of the the intentions around why it was happening, you know, you talked about your relationship to the work in in your twenties and what it looked like and the people that were surrounding you, ⁓ and how you took a significant break because because ultimately it wasn't it wasn't serving you in the in in the same way, and then you returned back to it in your forties. So there's a couple things that would be interesting for me at least to to talk about today is one to follow back ⁓ on up on the the intentions you you ins you suggested I think about. ⁓ and then the second thing would be to talk about just how the work influenced you and inspired you as a parent. So maybe we can start with the that intention piece. you said something about the value of just Taking note of how we are responding to things and our patterning around that. Can you say a little bit more about that challenge or or about that intention and then w maybe we can go into our experiences with it? Stanley Brownstein: I think it relates to broadly the value of mindfulness and you know just our honestly assessing what our reactions and our experiences at any moment. And a big Part of that I feel is to be able to do it uncritically or non-judgmentally, because I feel that, you know, criticism and judgment usually is a negative thing. And we take and we deny it or we justify it. It almost ⁓ ironically ⁓ causes us to be that much more invested in it, in that behavior. Mbrownstein3485: Hmm. Stanley Brownstein: So I was, I remember the assignments which you asked me to give give us was to watch our reaction to the world uncritically, not looking at them as either good or bad, ⁓ which doesn't give license to act any however we want to. It's just to be honestly assess how we are reacting. Mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: And and to take that information where it leads one. Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: Is that as you recall it? Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. and I guess just to take note, I guess there's like the the the dual part of it and kind of taking note of of what it's like when that's happening. At least that's something that kinda resonates with me is like the experience of noting. ⁓ Yeah, go ahead. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I mean that's an interest just as ⁓ as an to kind of springboard off of that, what's really interesting about that too is Just doing that actually is a a way to separate from just your automatic response to a situation. So usually, you know, you're kind of once you react to something, you're kind of down the rabbit hole. You know, and that's when you start just and then you start justifying it when you find that, you know, this is not exactly what I wanted to do, the people aren't really s responding that well, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Or, you know, you realize that you're doing it again and ⁓ you have no c you feel like you have no control over it. But just stepping back and seeing it before it actually kind of takes a little bit of the air out of it. It's almost like, you know, that old ⁓ advice, you know, you'd better count to ten before you respond, that type of thing. Well you're not counted to ten, but what you're doing is you're y using your ⁓ your mind and your body to distract to kind of take a little bit of the air out of the ⁓ power of the emotions. Mbrownstein3485: Mm. Right. Mm. Yeah. It yeah, do you have any like I remember when I when I did the retreat, it's been a long time now. I I did it before the pandemic. ⁓ a a two day or I guess two and a half day silent retreat. One of the things I realized was, you know, when you have a when you have more time to take notice, ⁓ There's some momentum that could be built. And then you start to also like learn some strategies, maybe skillful not or maybe not skillful, to kind of come back to noticing. And I think one of the things that resonated with me during that time that I still come back to every once in a while is as a way to to really appreciate the smaller moments within the moments. The idea of like counting, but like the noting the inhale and the exhale with e within each of the counts. Like that kind of helps me to like, all right, like let's actually come back. Like I'm gonna pay attention to the inhale and the out exhale within a count. well specifically taking note of my my breath. Stanley Brownstein: As opposed to what? Mbrownstein3485: as as I inhale and exhale, as opposed to I don't know, the refrain and let's try again. Or taking note of sound or taking note of body. ⁓ this idea of of and this is actually something one of the facilitators said was like, you know, finding your own anchor to some extent. So I'm wondering if you have any Stanley Brownstein: Right. Okay. Got Mbrownstein3485: ⁓ anchors that you come back to ⁓ when you're when you're as as a way to come back to noticing. Stanley Brownstein: I g ⁓ so one anchor that I had used for many years was Tai Chi, you know, just feeling my ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: Feeling my body relative to gravity, ⁓ relaxation, posture. ⁓ what's interesting though is that a lot of these anchors, you have to keep the anchors fresh also. ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Sure. W when you say fresh, what do you mean? Stanley Brownstein: So You have to It has for some what we tend to ⁓ get habituated in many of our ⁓ in everything. I mean that's kind of what we seek. We seek ⁓ the comfort of not working at something. and we do that in big ways and little ways. And you know, anchors, so for instance, ⁓ a some ⁓ easier example is like breathing. So okay, so breathe. So you end up going, you know, I'm breathing. But Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Stanley Brownstein: I mean the way you described it ⁓ was not like that. I appreciated that. And you know, and I and you you almost kinda have to there's a phrase that ⁓ Harris uses a lot. He says like, imagine you're doing it the first time or imagine this is your last time. And and that and I think to me that cuts into the ⁓ the habituation aspect of it. It cuts into what remembering why you're doing it rather than feeling like I'm doing it so this should work. Mbrownstein3485: When do you make time 'cause it this kind of makes me think about one of the reasons you paused your initial relationship to the work. I say relationship to the work meaning like you didn't attend the meetings in the same way, like that type of thing. ⁓ because you felt like you were it be it became a little bit automatic, like your relationship to it wasn't the same or your intention of about it wasn't the same. without rehashing that I'm I'm one I'm actually more curious about like How did you what what was it what was the experience like for you to to come to that realization? And like what is reflection around that and like that sense of purpose around this work? Like how does that, how do you approach that and and prioritize that? Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ well at that time I just felt that I was ⁓ I didn't feel I was appreciating it and I I felt that I was coming kind of coming to the same place all the time, which was ⁓ not ⁓ positive. and I I mean what I told myself at the time was that. Mbrownstein3485: Mm. Stanley Brownstein: that I didn't want to, you know, to tr to recognize that this was something that I was going through and not wanting it to be, you know, not wanting it to ruin the work, you know, as it may for for me for you know, for me. I didn't I didn't you know, I wanted to so in a way I just kinda needed a break from this from the from the ⁓ from the environment I was in. Mbrownstein3485: So when I when those some when some of those ideas, I'm sure those ideas came to you at various times, I'm wondering when you were intending, let's say, to whether it's to sit and practice mindfulness or to where you're doing Tai Chi and you're practicing mindfulness, like those carved out times for that, when when when thoughts like that come up that actually might carry some weight, how do you how do you relate to them during those times where you're intention is to take note and not grasp. Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ At this point you're asking me, pretty much. I mean, because we're talking ⁓ I mean, we're we're not talking thirty years ago, we're talking now, okay. ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, let's let's talk yeah, let's talk like right now. Yeah, well yeah, I guess I was I was thinking about only because Yeah, well you can answer it however however you'd like. I just I do think that there is something 'cause like in a funny just like to connect a little bit, like I find like I like running with ⁓ with headphones sometimes. And I'll listen to a podcast. And I find that sometimes I'm like I find myself thinking of things. And when I note that the the things that I'm thinking about are interesting or helpful, I'll I'll signal, I'm like, all right, I gotta turn this off and I wanna let my brain go. Versus there are times where I'm like listening to a podcast and I'm like my brain's going to different places and I'm like, I don't really wanna be thinking about that right now. Like, let's go back to and so I I take note of it and I'm like, let's let's go back to the podcast. So I'm wondering when like your plan is to sit or to do Tai Chi or whatever the case may be, how do you how do you respond to thoughts like that? Stanley Brownstein: Alright, well that's it that to me is ⁓ for me that's almost like the crux of ⁓ what it takes to ⁓ be mindful and to be able to meditate. ⁓ because it's a it's an and foremost it's it's reminding yourself why you're doing it. So you know, so if you if you're meditating, let's say, and your mind is going all over the place, or if you're reading. Mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Hmm. Right. Stanley Brownstein: And your mind is going all over the place. Or if I'm doing Tai Chi, you know, and even though I'm doing the Tai Chi, I'm not really paying attention like I should. Just to remind, you know, just to, you know, because again, well, not again, but you know, I I I've seen that there's a big part of how I would do things was w consisted of feeling doing it was sufficient. You know, so if I did Tai Chi twice a day, I'm doing what I was supposed to, you know. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Stanley Brownstein: Or if I meditate every day, I was doing what I was supposed to. Or if I don't yell at someone, I'm doing what I'm supposed to. But you know, and that's a good first step. But then, you know, but then, you know, after many, many, many, many years, I it started I started to understand that, you know, that's not really taking me anywhere. You know, you you reach it you don't really improve any. So then it comes down to kind of what we were saying too, is ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Mm. Right. Stanley Brownstein: Uncritical self-observation. So it's kind of like so when you're so when I'm meditating now and I start seeing these thoughts come in, I just keep on returning. You know, I keep on say, you know, almost like there was there was an expression ⁓ that Ronald Reagan used to use. He used to used to say, There you go again, you know, is this and that's kind of where it's at. It's like Mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: There you go again, you know, and you just kind of take a breath, feel your body, you know, almost like start over again. Feel your body. you know, and then what happened almost like, you know, sometimes, you know, Harris has says, you know, follow the line of thought, and then all of a sudden it just dissipates. You know, and don't judge yourself for doing it, you know. You know, and then, you know, you talked about little techniques or stuff like that. I mean, I sometimes I frame Mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: That occurrence as that's kind of what meditation is, because usually you're asleep. So when you start seeing these all these voices, you you're really kind of waking up because usually you don't see it. Usually you're kind of lost of it and you're following these thoughts down a rabbit hole. So that's kind of a so instead of saying, ⁓ shit, I can't I don't know how to meditate after all these years, you're saying, ⁓ yeah, this is what meditate, this is what meditation does. It allows you to see these things. Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Right. Right, right. That are that are there anyway, right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: And if you don't react to it, yeah. And if you don't react to it and you again, you just kind of settle yourself in again, you know, you you've paid attention to your if it you can't get rid of it, you pay attention to your breaths more, not counting them, but feeling it go in, feeling it go out. So that's one way I'll do it. And then with Tai Chi, it's the same type of thing. As I'm doing it and I feel I'm not paying attention, I'll just relax more into my body, feel my body more, and just ⁓ remember why I'm doing it. Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: you know, certain principles in Tai Chi that I remind myself of and kinda take anchor in it. Did that answer your question? Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, no, definitely. ⁓ Stanley Brownstein: But it took a really long time for me to get a sense of that. Even breathing, like breathing, like breathe. So it's like and encounter 10 as you do it. I could I could I could do that for 20 minutes without any problem. But then I realized I'm not really paying attention to my breathing. And I started realizing you have to kind of feel what you're doing. It it it it can't it's almost like we do things intellectually all the time. You have to like really bring your body into it, if that makes sense to you. Mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Well, very very much so, and it definitely resonates with me in terms of I think my relationship to even my positive habits, like running, for instance, and also sitting. It's sometimes it is kind of checking things off the box or I'm seeking something in particular. Like I'm seeking good feelings in my brain. And so when I'm noticing that the good feelings aren't there, I'm not like I'm not looking at it criti ⁓ uncritically. You know, I think actually what I'm doing is I'm trying to sidestep it. Right. Whether that's ⁓ wait, no, let me go back to the podcast, or it's me turning off the podcast because I like the thoughts that are coming up. Right. So Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ yeah, that that was another thing that I I I didn't get back to. I also think it's important to recognize sometimes streaming of thoughts is good. I mean, and it's it's again, it's what's your intention at that time. You know, just like, you know, when you're lifting a weight, it's really good to have a tight bicep. But if you're not lifting a weight, it's like Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Right, right. Yeah, that's I I really, really appreciate that. So so somehow we've already been talking for eighteen minutes. And I gotta we gotta wrap up because now I need to go back with staff, but my brain is way more open and less less rigid than it was before. So I pr I appreciate that. Your your voice also sounds really, really good. So I'm glad that that's happening. Yeah. what if we Stanley Brownstein: Coming along. Mbrownstein3485: Came back to that same technique that you shared last two weeks ago. ⁓ just noting how we're responding to what comes up and and in particular I think something I wanna pay attention to is those moments where I kinda shift into you know, path of least resistance or aversion. You know, like speci like I go for a run every morning and I think that when those thoughts come up that I feel like I don't really want to be paying attention to, I I tend to kind of duck them. And even if I duck them, just making sure that I'm aware of that and not necessarily doing it while I'm asleep. So that's what I'm gonna try. ⁓ any any thoughts from you on that before we we close? Stanley Brownstein: No, I think it's good to explore ⁓ what we do and even though it it might be a comfortable alternative to not necessarily ⁓ get stuck there either. Mbrownstein3485: Cool. Intention. Purpose. Well, Dad, thank you very much for making time. And I'll see you around later today because we're in the same place. All right. Love you. Bye. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, see you soon. Love ya.