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9-year-old sobs in court after charged with 5 murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Today on Crime Stories. We had to Goodfield, Illinois. Around
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Speaker 1: the corner of the house. It's pretty much totally indolfed.
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Speaker 1: Joining Nancy Grace, New York criminal defense attorney Jason Oceans,
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Speaker 1: John Cardilla, formerly of the MYPD, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst,
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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, medical examiner and author of Homicide Investigation
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Speaker 1: Field Guide, and Dave Mack Crime Online investigative report Crime
0:37
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Around the corner of the house,
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Speaker 1: it's pretty much totally indolfed. I did run down by
0:48
Speaker 1: the windows to see if I can see anything, but
0:51
Speaker 1: once I got down there, it was just the heat
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Speaker 1: was overwhelming and I just backed up. There's nothing you
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Speaker 1: can do at that point because the fire department showed
0:59
Speaker 1: up second time after I got here, and our fire
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Speaker 1: department here is you know, if these guys are awesome
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Speaker 1: about their response time for a volunteer department, they're on
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Speaker 1: the spot within six minutes. This has never happened. With
1:12
Speaker 1: fifteen years I've been out here and something like this,
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Speaker 1: you know, in the community to sip here. If there
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Speaker 1: would have been something they could do to help, they
1:19
Speaker 1: would have been helping. I think That's the biggest thing
1:22
Speaker 1: is you know, a lot of people that was here
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Speaker 1: felt helpless, that no one what was going on, and
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Speaker 1: that they couldn't do anything. Incredible fire claims the home.
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Speaker 1: A fire claims not only a home, but lives. Three toddlers,
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Speaker 1: two adults, all dead in a fire the home near Peoria, Illinois,
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Speaker 1: consumed with flames, killing Aerial wall Age one, Damon Wall
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Speaker 1: and Rose Allwood. To Jason Wall thirty four and Catherine Murray,
2:00
Speaker 1: sixty nine, what happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
2:06
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Dave
2:10
Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave. A fire
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Speaker 1: this severe, totally destroying the home and claiming so many lives.
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Speaker 1: What happened, Nancy? They were all asleep. It was just
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Speaker 1: after eleven o'clock and you've got a family with several
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Speaker 1: young children. The manager of this neighborhood, Sean Johnson, actually
2:30
Speaker 1: said that as he rounded the corner, it was already
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Speaker 1: fully engulfed. Flames were coming out from the middle of
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Speaker 1: the home as well as both ends. It was completely
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Speaker 1: on fire within a matter of minutes. Firefighters arrived six
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Speaker 1: minutes from the time they got the call and it
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Speaker 1: was already over. I'm just trying to imagine the home
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Speaker 1: going up in flames in the middle of the night
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Speaker 1: and know to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a psychoanalyst
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Speaker 1: in Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany, there's something so terrible flying
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Speaker 1: about fire. If you ask people that will be one
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Speaker 1: of their main fears is fire. I think, yes, fire
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Speaker 1: is such a frightening idea for most people because it's
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Speaker 1: an idea of a very painful, slow death. And that's
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Speaker 1: why fire is such an evocative term in our modern
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Speaker 1: day lexicon. And not only fire, but fire in a
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Speaker 1: home in the middle of the night when people are sleeping.
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Speaker 1: I think what most people don't realize though, is that
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Speaker 1: in a fire, you generally fire die of smoke inhalation,
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Speaker 1: not being burned alive, but yes, burned alive at the stake,
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Speaker 1: burning up with anger. Our world's on fire. I mean,
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Speaker 1: the idea of fire is definitely a scary concept. This
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Speaker 1: blazing inferno near the small village of Goodfield kills one
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Speaker 1: year old Aerial Wall, her brother Damien Wall, cousin Rose Allwood,
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Speaker 1: both aged two. Ariel and Damon's dad, thirty four year
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Speaker 1: old Jason Wall, and their great grandma Katherine Murray, also
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Speaker 1: in the home. I'm looking at it and it looks
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Speaker 1: like it has eaten up the entire home. Now, oh,
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Speaker 1: this is this hurts. I'm looking at the photos of
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Speaker 1: the children. I'm looking at little Damien and his one
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Speaker 1: year old sister Ariel, just a beautiful The dad an
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Speaker 1: Army vet us Army Vet. Jason Wall, just thirty four,
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Speaker 1: who died of smoke inhalation. Then there's the niece, Rose Allwood,
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Speaker 1: aged two. Here she is with a little princess hat on.
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Speaker 1: She was just staying with the family that night. She
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Speaker 1: also died. Then the great grandma, Katherine Murray also died,
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Speaker 1: all five dying of smoke inhalation inside the family home
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Speaker 1: at the Timberline community. You have Jason Wall's fiance, say
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Speaker 1: Katrina Wall, and her son Kyle Allwood, who managed to
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Speaker 1: escape the fire. Everyone else perishes. John Cardillo with a
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Speaker 1: former NYPD. When you have a fire like this, you
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Speaker 1: can burn to death or you can die smoke inhalation.
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Speaker 1: Explain how these people died a smoke inhalation, but they
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Speaker 1: their bodies were not actually burned. Oh, that's actually the
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Speaker 1: most common cause, Nancy. You know, we would respond alongside
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Speaker 1: the fire department, and it would shock people if they
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Speaker 1: never responded to one of these scenes, just how quickly
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Speaker 1: a premise, a home, of building, an office could be
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Speaker 1: engulfed in flames, especially if it was an older structure
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Speaker 1: that wasn't up to the current fire codes. Often they
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Speaker 1: don't make you retroactively upgrade. And this fire department exceptional
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Speaker 1: responds time right six minutes from the call the alarm
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Speaker 1: going out to them responding and turning those hoses on.
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Speaker 1: But that's all you really need there. Maybe, you know,
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Speaker 1: the fire investigators will go out there and survey the property.
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Speaker 1: But it certainly could have been maybe they were cooking
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Speaker 1: with propane, there was a propane tank attached to the
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Speaker 1: house that would lend to it that would cause a
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Speaker 1: secondary explosion. There could have been older gas lines with
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Speaker 1: natural gas coming in. One of those could have split
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Speaker 1: from the heat. Now you've essentially got a flamethrower adding
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Speaker 1: to the chaos. So these fires, now that smoke is
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Speaker 1: going to bilow up and it's going to bilow into
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Speaker 1: these rooms away from the point of fire, very very quickly.
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Speaker 1: This is a thick, black, acrid smoke that's going to
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Speaker 1: overcome you in seconds, in seconds, especially if you're sleeping.
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Speaker 1: If you're awake, remember we were taught in school as kids,
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Speaker 1: stop drop and roll, get a wet cloth on your face.
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Speaker 1: But if you're asleep, this smoke is going to overcome
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Speaker 1: you more often than not before you can react. They
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Speaker 1: number one cause of death related to fire is smoke inhalation.
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Speaker 1: That occurs when you breathe in the products of combustion
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Speaker 1: during a fire, the rapid breakdown of substances like wood, metal,
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Speaker 1: everything used to build a home. It smokes a mixture
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Speaker 1: of those heated particles and gas gas think of carbon monoxide.
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Speaker 1: Smoke inhalation is simply asphyxiation. You die from lack of oxygen.
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Speaker 1: You also have a chemical irritation when you breathe. All
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Speaker 1: that in long story short, by simply breathing, you die.
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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it takes less than three
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Speaker 1: minutes to die of smoke inhalation, and it's basically asphyxiation
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Speaker 1: because your body's starved of oxygen. Dave Mack was the
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Speaker 1: entire home destroyed where the body's intact, What do you
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Speaker 1: know yes, ma'am. The entire home was destroyed, and you
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Speaker 1: could see from the pictures that the main focus of
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Speaker 1: this well, from the pictures, it looked like the very
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Speaker 1: center of this home, the living room area, was totally obliterated.
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Speaker 1: On both ends of the home. You could see that
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Speaker 1: there had been fire coming out of both ends. And
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Speaker 1: we do know that each one of the victims here
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Speaker 1: died from smoke in elation, and the family had been
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Speaker 1: so excited to move into this new community. Listen to
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Speaker 1: WMBD reporter Rosario Dominguez. I was at the scene this
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Speaker 1: morning and talked to neighbors who witnessed the fire, and unfortunately,
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Speaker 1: two adults and three children lost their lives and only
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Speaker 1: two were able to escape. Sunday, This is the aftermath
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Speaker 1: after a deadly fire at the Timberline trailer Park in Goodfield.
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Speaker 1: Katrina Allwood and Jason Wall lived there with their three kids, Damien,
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Speaker 1: Ariel and Kyle, ages two, one, and eight. Their niece
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Speaker 1: Rose Allwood and Grandma Katherine Murray were also in the
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Speaker 1: home at the time of the blaze, but only Katrina
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Speaker 1: and her son Kyle were able to get out. It
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Speaker 1: was real, it was just a fireball when we got
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Speaker 1: over here in flames were shooting out from the center
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Speaker 1: of the home and from this end, I've been hearing
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Speaker 1: it over in my head all night long, just children
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Speaker 1: crying and mom's crying for their babies, and it's it's horrible.
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Speaker 1: Katrina and Jason had moved to the community to be
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Speaker 1: near her sister and parents about a year and a
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Speaker 1: half ago. According to neighbors, they were pretty pretty pretty
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Speaker 1: happy about moving in here, pretty excited. They liked it.
9:27
Speaker 1: They moved from Eastboordy here that the sceneries a lot different. Quiet.
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Speaker 1: I've lived out in this community for a little around
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Speaker 1: fifteen years something like that and never had any anything
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Speaker 1: like this crime stories with Nancy Grace. The community is
10:01
Speaker 1: already looking for ways to be there for Katrina and
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Speaker 1: her son. Quite a few people talking about trying to
10:06
Speaker 1: find out what the clothes size for the boy in
10:09
Speaker 1: Katrina is. They're already talking about getting a collection of clothes.
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Speaker 1: This fire also got those around talking about ways to
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Speaker 1: prevent this from happening again. We're going to make sure
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Speaker 1: there's working smoke alarms in every home. We're going to
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Speaker 1: make sure that lays have an escape plan, and I
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Speaker 1: also talked to though you got Goodfield fire chief, and
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Speaker 1: he says that twenty three firefighters from four different departments
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Speaker 1: were at the scene last night. They were able to
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Speaker 1: get the fire under control in fifteen minutes and cleared
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Speaker 1: the scene approximately at five am. For county authorities say
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Speaker 1: the cost of the fire is still under investigation. You
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Speaker 1: were hearing our friend at WMBD, reporter Risorio Dominguez, as
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Speaker 1: the neighbors joined together and try to help the two survivors,
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Speaker 1: the fiancee and her little boy, but still the cause
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Speaker 1: of the fire had not been determined. To Jason Oceans,
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Speaker 1: joining me, veteran criminal defense attorney out of New York
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Speaker 1: in the Tri State area. Jason Oceans, the thing about
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Speaker 1: a fire, Um, it's a tricky case to prove an
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Speaker 1: arson because, first of all, unlike with a bank robbery
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Speaker 1: or shooting or murder, you know a crime has happened.
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Speaker 1: With an arson, you first have to prove there was
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Speaker 1: a crime. Then you have to figure out who did it,
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Speaker 1: which is very difficult to do because all the evidence
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Speaker 1: has been burned. You're correct, Nancy. I mean fire investigators
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Speaker 1: are you know, very focused in their craft and their specialists. Uh,
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Speaker 1: you know was there an accelerant involved, you know, source
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Speaker 1: of fire and as our NYPD detective indicated, the h
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Speaker 1: you know an accelerant, you know, a secondary source and
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Speaker 1: ruling that out and you know, it's it's painstaking, and
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Speaker 1: h it's it's it's certainly, as you stated, very difficult
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Speaker 1: in an arson case, first proving how and whether it
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Speaker 1: was and then finding out who've done it. An arson
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Speaker 1: investigation is painstaking. I've been through many of them and
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Speaker 1: prosecuted arson's. In fact, toward the end of prosecuting in
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Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta, that had become a real niche that
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Speaker 1: I worked on because arson cases can be very, very
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Speaker 1: hard to prove. But after investigation, this is what happened.
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Speaker 1: This very spot that I'm standing in used to be
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Speaker 1: home to a five person family, but during one night
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Speaker 1: in early April, a spark changed everything. It wasn't long
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Speaker 1: before the authorities determined that this fire was set intentionally,
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Speaker 1: ruling this case as a homicide investigation. One year old Aeriel,
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Speaker 1: two year old Damien, and two year old Rows killed
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Speaker 1: when this mobile home caught fire. Also lost in the
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Speaker 1: blaze thirty four year old Jason Wall and sixty nine
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Speaker 1: year old Catherine Murray. Now a young child faces charges.
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Speaker 1: He's only nine years old, and I'm pretty sure a
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Speaker 1: child would not set out to intentionally harm someone. The
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Speaker 1: Woodford County States Attorney says the child faces five counts
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Speaker 1: of murder, two counts of arson, and one count of
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Speaker 1: aggravated arson. But some say the charges are a bit harsh.
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Speaker 1: I think he was just playing. He didn't realize the
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Speaker 1: implications or the consequences, and a bad tragedy came out
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Speaker 1: of it. That was our friend at WMBD. That was
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Speaker 1: Minosha mccargi. A nine year old little boy charged in
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Speaker 1: a fire that kills three tots and two adults. To
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Speaker 1: determine the cause of the blaze will go a long
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Speaker 1: way to determine the mindset of this little boy, if
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Speaker 1: in fact he did it. But it's staggering to me,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, that a nine year old is charged
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Speaker 1: with five homicides. Well, I cannot speak to the charges,
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Speaker 1: but I can speak to the psychology of a child
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Speaker 1: who would set a fire. You know, there are very
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Speaker 1: careful specific delineations in my field in terms of child fireplays,
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Speaker 1: what we call it, and why a child might set
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Speaker 1: a fire, and the most mild would just be that
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Speaker 1: they're curious, it's accidental, they're playing in their bedroom, sometimes
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Speaker 1: as a cry for help. It could be more further
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Speaker 1: along the spectrum that they're delinquents, but usually if it's
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Speaker 1: a juvenile delinquent, it's between the ages of eleven and fifteen.
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Speaker 1: If you go up the scale, you can have psychotic, paranoid,
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Speaker 1: schizophrenic children who are severely disturbed, or you can have
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Speaker 1: children who are what we call cognitively impaired. And what
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Speaker 1: that means is that they do not understand the consequences
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Speaker 1: of fire starting. Maybe maybe they have intellectual disabilities or
14:50
Speaker 1: they do not have cause and effect thinking. But I
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Speaker 1: think instead of just rushing the judgment and charging the child,
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Speaker 1: I'm hoping that they have a psycholog just they're evaluating
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Speaker 1: this child to try to delineate what the motivation was.
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Speaker 1: There's a famous case in my field where a four
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Speaker 1: year old sets a fire in his bedroom, closes the door,
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Speaker 1: goes out, sits down at the dinner table to eat
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Speaker 1: with the family, and all of a sudden, the bedroom
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Speaker 1: goes up in smoke. Fortunately, the fire department comes in time.
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Speaker 1: The blazes, you know, snuffed out one hundred thousand dollars
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Speaker 1: worth of damages, and when questioned about why why he
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Speaker 1: set the fire, he said, well, I thought if I
15:31
Speaker 1: closed the door, it would go away. Now that's a
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Speaker 1: four year old, but that's an example of the importance
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Speaker 1: of evaluating why the child set the fire. You know,
15:41
Speaker 1: a lot is going to depend on how the fire
15:44
Speaker 1: was started. I'm going to make a confession since I
15:46
Speaker 1: know the Statute of Limitations has long been passed. Before
15:50
Speaker 1: I was three, I was at my grandmother Mama that
15:55
Speaker 1: Lucy's named after, and my grandfather Avid's home, and my
16:00
Speaker 1: granddad had come home for lunch. He drove a school
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Speaker 1: bus and my grandmother was getting lunch together and I
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Speaker 1: was playing in the den and I found matches and
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Speaker 1: I just wanted to see if I could strike a
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Speaker 1: match and I did, and of course it fell on
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Speaker 1: the sofa and it burned a marked in the fabric.
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Speaker 1: Long story short, my grandmother ran in. I don't really
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Speaker 1: remember exactly what happened, but I didn't even get any trouble.
16:33
Speaker 1: I don't think I even got fussed at or spain.
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Speaker 1: I think they just took matches away and told me
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Speaker 1: to leave. Them alone. But I certainly was intended to
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Speaker 1: burn the house down or burn anything down. I was
16:42
Speaker 1: just trying to strike a match. My point is, in
16:45
Speaker 1: this case, John Cardillo, former NYPD, it'll be a very
16:51
Speaker 1: different scenario if he was just trying to light a match.
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Speaker 1: Or did he pour gasoline in the bed room of
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Speaker 1: the victims and then let it put a match to it.
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Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on whether it's obvious this nine
17:07
Speaker 1: year old little boy actually try to start a fire. Well,
17:10
Speaker 1: that's that's the crux of the case, right there. Was
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Speaker 1: it a kid actending playing with matches? Look, I did
17:15
Speaker 1: it as a kid. I probably use twelve years old
17:17
Speaker 1: and I we had some fireworks in a box in
17:19
Speaker 1: the garage, and I was messing around with a blowtorch,
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Speaker 1: trying to fuse two pieces of metal. Okay, wait wait
17:26
Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait, stop stop messing around with a blowtorlet.
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Speaker 1: It was a lot less nefarious than it sounds. I
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Speaker 1: had like two pieces of it. It sounds really bad, John, Well, blowtorch,
17:40
Speaker 1: what was it blowtorch doing your garage? I was trying
17:43
Speaker 1: to put two pieces of metal together. We were trying
17:46
Speaker 1: to make a ramp to jump our bicycles. Wait, and
17:48
Speaker 1: how old were you? I was probably like twelve, right,
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Speaker 1: I mean? And we all survived back then acting this way,
17:53
Speaker 1: didn't we? Blowtorch plus fireworks plus garage equals send me
17:59
Speaker 1: good build up all the sparks right hit the fireworks.
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Speaker 1: They were in a cardboard box, and it was, you know,
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Speaker 1: a few weeks after the Fourth of July or before.
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Speaker 1: And but let me tell you that, hold on, I'm
18:08
Speaker 1: trying to write this damn as fast as I can
18:10
Speaker 1: from my next book it's called Cardillo did exactly well anyway,
18:15
Speaker 1: But they caught up. You know, those fireworks caught pretty quickly,
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Speaker 1: and my friends and I were able to kind of
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Speaker 1: kick the box outside. I guess, so get it fire right.
18:24
Speaker 1: Luckily we were able to kick the box outside and
18:26
Speaker 1: they sort of went off harmlessly. But you know what
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Speaker 1: I'm saying is that that's an accident. And with the
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Speaker 1: the arson investigation, investigation methods don't know when you pick
18:35
Speaker 1: up a blowtorch and turn it on. I guess that's
18:40
Speaker 1: up to the jury to decide. Okay, can I get
18:43
Speaker 1: back to this case Cardillo? Yeah, this sound bite is
18:45
Speaker 1: gonna follow me for the rest of my life. Nancy,
18:47
Speaker 1: this is awesome. Yes it will, because I'm gonna play
18:49
Speaker 1: it over and over. So well, here's what I'm saying.
18:53
Speaker 1: Arson investigation methods are very sophisticated. In fact, I've got
18:56
Speaker 1: a friend who an ARSON investigator in New Mexico who
18:58
Speaker 1: uses a canine and that dog is one of the
19:00
Speaker 1: few around the country that's trained to detect accelerant. So
19:04
Speaker 1: with the technology they have available to them today, the
19:07
Speaker 1: canine component that they can bring in, the investigators can
19:11
Speaker 1: tell pretty quickly if an area of that structure was
19:14
Speaker 1: saturated with some kind of accelerant. In this particular case,
19:17
Speaker 1: they suspect gasolines. They're going to look at you know,
19:20
Speaker 1: the burn marks are going to be darker and deeper,
19:22
Speaker 1: There's going to be a scorched trail, things of that nature,
19:24
Speaker 1: and so they'll be able to determine crime stories with
19:40
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Nine year old child is accused of causing
19:48
Speaker 1: a mobile home fire, killing three children and two adults.
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Speaker 1: Fire happened in central Illinois back in April. Now, the
19:54
Speaker 1: nine year old is facing five counts, a first a
19:57
Speaker 1: green murder. A neighbor spoke with WIC. I have compassion
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Speaker 1: for him because in my own heart. I really can't
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Speaker 1: see that nine year old would intentionally but to harm somebody.
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Speaker 1: The Woodford County States Attorney to not give any more
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Speaker 1: details about the suspect, including possible relationship to the victims.
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Speaker 1: If convicted, the child could be placed on probation for
20:21
Speaker 1: at least five years, but not beyond the age of
20:24
Speaker 1: twenty one. Therapy and counseling would be likely. Oh my stars.
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Speaker 1: A family home is consumed with flames, then criminal charges
20:33
Speaker 1: brought against a nine year old little boy now named
20:38
Speaker 1: as Kyle. I'm looking at a photo of the It's
20:43
Speaker 1: hard to say defendant in this case. Kyle Allwood is
20:48
Speaker 1: just a nine year old little boy. A lot is
20:52
Speaker 1: going to depend on how the fire was started. Was
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Speaker 1: it an accident or was it intentional? I'm Nancy Gray.
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Speaker 1: This a Crime Stories Welcome Back with Me. Jason Oshans,
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Speaker 1: John Cardillo, Dodger, Bethany Marshall, and Dave Matt Crime Online
21:08
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Jason Oshans, what do you do
21:11
Speaker 1: when you've got a nine year old little boy charged
21:14
Speaker 1: with five counts of murder? I think that's uh, you know,
21:18
Speaker 1: beyond the pale that Davy State's prosecutor would would bring
21:23
Speaker 1: charges as an adult, you know, just historically Nancy, Illinois
21:28
Speaker 1: was the first state to have a juvenile court over
21:31
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty years ago. It just doesn't make
21:34
Speaker 1: sense to even if it was and there was an
21:38
Speaker 1: accelerant involved it, it just doesn't make sense. The cognitive
21:42
Speaker 1: ability of a nine year old to comprehend almost anything
21:47
Speaker 1: in a sophisticated intensional men's rea act. It just shocks
21:53
Speaker 1: me as a father, as an attorney, it makes no sense.
21:57
Speaker 1: You may scare a lot of people throwing around Latin
21:59
Speaker 1: terms like men raya, which means the intent to do
22:03
Speaker 1: the act, the malice to do the act. But in
22:06
Speaker 1: this case, for instance Jason Oshans, there are a lot
22:10
Speaker 1: of legal theories to support a merger charge. For instance,
22:13
Speaker 1: if I hold a gun up to your head and
22:15
Speaker 1: pull the trigger and kill you and then a way
22:17
Speaker 1: and then I say, oh, my stars, I just meant
22:19
Speaker 1: to scare him. Well, the law presumes you intend the
22:26
Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act. That's like me, as I
22:29
Speaker 1: would tell juries, holding up a piece of fine china
22:32
Speaker 1: and throwing it to a cement floor and going, oh
22:35
Speaker 1: my stars, I did not mean to break that well,
22:39
Speaker 1: why did you throw it to the floor, i e.
22:41
Speaker 1: Why did you poor excelerant and then put a match
22:44
Speaker 1: to it, So you don't have to say, oh, I
22:46
Speaker 1: did not mean for them to die of smoke inhalation.
22:49
Speaker 1: The point is, if you did the act, if you
22:52
Speaker 1: threw down the plate, if you pull the trigger, if
22:54
Speaker 1: you started the fire, the law presumes you intend the
22:59
Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act, Jason, no doubt, Nancy. But
23:03
Speaker 1: the applicability of the law was to and designed as adults,
23:08
Speaker 1: and we dropped from just having an adult court, Illinois
23:11
Speaker 1: being the first state for a juvenile court, and we
23:14
Speaker 1: set up different standards, we set up at different time
23:18
Speaker 1: periods of incarceration. It was completely and totally treated differently
23:24
Speaker 1: because of the age right and so as as violence
23:28
Speaker 1: has increased, the ability to have, you know, guns and
23:31
Speaker 1: the accessibility not uncommon for you know, fourteen or a
23:36
Speaker 1: fifteen year old to be charged with murder. The statistics
23:39
Speaker 1: proved that out. This is a nine year old, a
23:43
Speaker 1: nine year old. I don't know of any case where
23:46
Speaker 1: there's been a murder charge as an adult for in
23:51
Speaker 1: treating a nine year old as an adult. I mean,
23:53
Speaker 1: I think about that a nine year old is an
23:55
Speaker 1: adult in what way only if something bad or heinous happens,
24:00
Speaker 1: even if there wasn't intent. A nine year old was angry,
24:03
Speaker 1: played with matches to create a fire, but just consequence,
24:07
Speaker 1: the understanding, the cognitive knowledge to understand the consequences. It's
24:12
Speaker 1: like as as doctor Marshall said, it's like as a
24:14
Speaker 1: four year old closing the door and thinking would go away,
24:17
Speaker 1: or double the age of the four year old, and
24:20
Speaker 1: we've got a nine year old, not an eighteen year old,
24:23
Speaker 1: but a nine year old. I'm not defending the actions.
24:27
Speaker 1: Clearly that the child might need help. It might be
24:30
Speaker 1: determined that way based on you know, the examination, but
24:33
Speaker 1: the charge as an adult, I'd never do it. I'm
24:36
Speaker 1: trying to rustle with the fact that a nine year
24:40
Speaker 1: old little boy has been charged with five counts of murder,
24:45
Speaker 1: two counts of arson, one count up aggravated arson. Take
24:50
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at wm b D. I
24:54
Speaker 1: believe he needs help and love. State's attorney Greg Minger
24:58
Speaker 1: said if convicted, the boy could he placed on probation
25:01
Speaker 1: for at least five years, adding incarceration is off the table.
25:05
Speaker 1: He would have to go to therapy and counseling and
25:07
Speaker 1: a psychological evaluation would be likely. Still, those that know
25:11
Speaker 1: him feel he deserves a second chance. Some children, even
25:16
Speaker 1: some adults today, had things happened when they were younger.
25:18
Speaker 1: They grew out of it, somebody nurtured them and they
25:21
Speaker 1: have a very prosperous, productive adulthood now. So I believe
25:25
Speaker 1: they deserve a chance. And she went on to say,
25:27
Speaker 1: though this was a tragic incident, it opened the community's
25:31
Speaker 1: eye on the importance of guiding the young ones in
25:34
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. This is the youngest child to be accused
25:36
Speaker 1: in a mass killing since two thousand and six. According
25:40
Speaker 1: to the state's attorney's office. If convicted, the child could
25:42
Speaker 1: be put on probation for at least five years, but
25:45
Speaker 1: not beyond the age of twenty one. Prison time is
25:48
Speaker 1: not an option here, and neighbors in the area are
25:51
Speaker 1: reacting to these latest charges. He's gonna need some way
25:55
Speaker 1: to cope with that, you know why. I don't know
25:58
Speaker 1: if he understands. Look, he's really done. He didn't realize
26:02
Speaker 1: the implications are the consequences, and a bad tragedy came
26:05
Speaker 1: out of it. I believe he needs help and love.
26:09
Speaker 1: You are hearing neighbors reacting to the news that this
26:12
Speaker 1: little boy is charged with five counselor murder, but apparently
26:16
Speaker 1: there will be no prison time. What about this? To
26:20
Speaker 1: Jason Ocean's criminal defense lawyer, I believe one of the
26:23
Speaker 1: reasons that he is charged as an adult is so
26:28
Speaker 1: he will be under state's supervision. He could be under
26:31
Speaker 1: state's supervision for years and years and years on five
26:36
Speaker 1: counts and murder one, and he needs to be He
26:39
Speaker 1: doesn't need to go into a home situation with no
26:47
Speaker 1: one watching over him and no supervisory authority making him
26:54
Speaker 1: go to counseling making sure that he is staying out
26:57
Speaker 1: of trouble. I mean, hold on to Dave mac what
27:00
Speaker 1: do we know about any previous instances with this child, Nancy?
27:03
Speaker 1: What we know is that there have been investigations from
27:07
Speaker 1: the Family services since almost his birth. Thirteen different times
27:13
Speaker 1: Social Services has interviewed this family and been involved in
27:16
Speaker 1: different things with this specific child thirteen times. Now are
27:20
Speaker 1: you saying de facts or police d facts? Thirteen times
27:26
Speaker 1: de facts has been called in relation to this child.
27:31
Speaker 1: What does that mean to you, doctor Bethany Marshall, Well,
27:33
Speaker 1: to me, it means that he needs a thorough psychological assessment.
27:37
Speaker 1: Let me just say, Nancy, according to one study, child fireplay,
27:42
Speaker 1: as we call it, causes two billion dollars in damages
27:47
Speaker 1: every year, and half of all child fireplay happens in
27:51
Speaker 1: the bedroom. Just so you're listeners who are parents would
27:55
Speaker 1: know that that's the place you really want to supervise.
27:58
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't want to know is his child? Does
28:02
Speaker 1: he have early onset bipolar disorder, attention deficit with hyperactivity?
28:08
Speaker 1: Is he psychotic? Like? Is there something psychiatrically all of
28:12
Speaker 1: these aparent behaviors That would be the first thing I
28:15
Speaker 1: would have says. Secondarily, what is going on in the home?
28:18
Speaker 1: Is he adequately supervised? Is there any type of abuse?
28:22
Speaker 1: Sexual abuse, physical abuse? Not that any reports of that
28:25
Speaker 1: has come out, but is that what we call indogenius
28:28
Speaker 1: something in the child or exogen as something going on
28:31
Speaker 1: in the home. And then third, I agree with you, Nancy.
28:34
Speaker 1: If this guy, if this little boy goes into a home,
28:37
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. He's going to lose his tie
28:40
Speaker 1: to his mother? And who does he need most in
28:43
Speaker 1: the world. If he's struggling his mother, who's going to
28:46
Speaker 1: have the greatest therapeutic influence on him, his mother before
28:50
Speaker 1: we had fancy Schmancy therapists. We look to our mothers.
28:54
Speaker 1: Our mothers are the ones who heal and cure us,
28:57
Speaker 1: and he needs his mother most of all at this point,
28:59
Speaker 1: not some criminal desk justice system crime stories with me.
29:15
Speaker 1: It's grace. For the first time, we're hearing from the
29:21
Speaker 1: family of a nine year old boy accused of arson
29:24
Speaker 1: and charged just this week with five counts of first
29:27
Speaker 1: degree murder. Investigators say he intentionally set fire to his
29:31
Speaker 1: family home in Downstair Eureka last April, but his mother
29:34
Speaker 1: says he's not the monster people think he is. People
29:38
Speaker 1: make mistakes, and that's what this says. Yes, it was
29:41
Speaker 1: a horrible tragedy, but it's still not something to throw
29:46
Speaker 1: his life away over. Katie Allwood is talking about her
29:50
Speaker 1: son Kyle. The fire killed Allwood's two other children, her grandmother,
29:54
Speaker 1: her fiance, and her two year old niece Rose. They
29:57
Speaker 1: were sleeping when the flames swept through. The swept through,
30:01
Speaker 1: only all would escape. She forgives Kyle, but her sister,
30:05
Speaker 1: Rose's mother says, no way. I think he should go
30:09
Speaker 1: somewhere until he's legal aged to go to Jukie and
30:13
Speaker 1: I think he should eat to prison because at the
30:16
Speaker 1: end of the day, whether he meant to or not,
30:18
Speaker 1: he knew what fire did. The family says Kyle had
30:22
Speaker 1: shown an interest in lighters and fire before. The local
30:25
Speaker 1: prosecutor is defending the decision to file murder charges, but
30:29
Speaker 1: says the nine year old is likely the face only probation.
30:32
Speaker 1: Authorities said previously they thought the fire was intentionally set.
30:38
Speaker 1: It was no accident. When a fire burst out, consuming
30:42
Speaker 1: the families home and killing five, the fire was set
30:47
Speaker 1: intentionally and that makes the deaths homicide. There are also
30:52
Speaker 1: reports that the nine year old boy, Tyle, was actually
30:56
Speaker 1: eight eight years old when the incident occurred, now charged
31:02
Speaker 1: with five counts of murder one We also know that
31:09
Speaker 1: Kyle's mother set up a gofund Me page to save
31:13
Speaker 1: her van, which is all she had left from the fire.
31:18
Speaker 1: Murder charges against a child this young are extremely rare.
31:24
Speaker 1: If you speak to any legal expert, you'll learn that
31:28
Speaker 1: murder charges against a nine year old are uncommon because
31:33
Speaker 1: we don't understand the ability to reason at that age.
31:37
Speaker 1: But murder charges against this child happened, and it's happened
31:41
Speaker 1: in the past. Many people believe the boy should be
31:46
Speaker 1: charged as an adult. What would be the benefit of that,
31:50
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans no benefit, Nancy, there's no benefit whatsoever. What
31:54
Speaker 1: about supervising him for years to come? He clearly needs it.
32:01
Speaker 1: But before there's the rush to judgment to make an
32:04
Speaker 1: eight year old an adult. That's the stop right there.
32:09
Speaker 1: Think about that, an eight year old as an adult
32:11
Speaker 1: because a bad act occurred. Would it be different if
32:16
Speaker 1: it was a girl versus a boy. I can't even
32:21
Speaker 1: get into the secont I don't know. I don't know
32:23
Speaker 1: the benefit. I think there's no benefit. I don't know.
32:26
Speaker 1: You know who the prosecutor is playing too. But as
32:30
Speaker 1: a as a prosecutor, I could never imagine doing that.
32:34
Speaker 1: I carrying around a felon the rest of your life,
32:37
Speaker 1: what a murder felony? You might as well just you know,
32:41
Speaker 1: right off the life. You know, there's got to be
32:46
Speaker 1: more a sense of rehabilitation, and sure supervision would be appropriate.
32:50
Speaker 1: Clearly there's a larger problem they are of an eight
32:54
Speaker 1: year old now and nine year old forever. That's what
32:58
Speaker 1: you're setting up. A death sentence cannot succeed in life
33:02
Speaker 1: off of a felony murder charge. You need help supervision.
33:06
Speaker 1: As doctor Marshall suggested, the mother here speaking understands it's
33:10
Speaker 1: a tragedy and wants to get something good out of it,
33:15
Speaker 1: as opposed to now writing awful live nine year old.
33:19
Speaker 1: It's unconscionable to me. We know that this boy has
33:23
Speaker 1: had thirteen previous incidents with defacts. Why were they called in?
33:28
Speaker 1: We don't know because that is kept under seal. But
33:31
Speaker 1: we do know that the agency always either referred the
33:35
Speaker 1: little boy to community services or determine the allegations were
33:39
Speaker 1: quote unfounded. Now what does that mean? All we know
33:45
Speaker 1: is that community action and state services have not helped
33:49
Speaker 1: so far. Now there are five dead bodies. Defects took
33:55
Speaker 1: custody of Kyle, and that occurred shortly after the fire.
33:59
Speaker 1: Who's put enough foster home? I'm not so sure a
34:03
Speaker 1: foster home is wrong, Doctor Bethany Marshall. Thirteen calls so
34:07
Speaker 1: in Department of Family Children Welfare and the little boy
34:10
Speaker 1: is only eight. What is happening in the home that
34:14
Speaker 1: defects has been out? Dancy, It's true, because if they
34:18
Speaker 1: have been called out so many times, it would call
34:21
Speaker 1: into question is there's something toxic or dysfunctional happening in
34:26
Speaker 1: that home where either there's not enough supervision so the
34:29
Speaker 1: child is left on his own, that the child is
34:32
Speaker 1: acting out the distress in the family. So fire setting
34:36
Speaker 1: is in an essence a cry for help, which is
34:39
Speaker 1: one of the reasons children do engage in fire play
34:43
Speaker 1: or is are the parents sort of insticating the child
34:48
Speaker 1: to feel agitated? Now the mother, according to the mother,
34:51
Speaker 1: the child has bipolar, attention deficit with hyperactivity and schizophrenia.
34:58
Speaker 1: So to me, that's also a perfect storm for fire setting.
35:01
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Attention deficit with winger activity
35:04
Speaker 1: would cause impulsivity where you just act without thinking. Bipolar
35:10
Speaker 1: causes enormous amounts of energy, and schizophrenia causes poor reality
35:15
Speaker 1: testing and fragmentation, meaning anxiety and the feeling that one
35:20
Speaker 1: is falling apart. So agitation and fragmentation often is compensated
35:27
Speaker 1: for by fire setting in children, typically with boys and
35:32
Speaker 1: little boys are already impulsive. But if you pair that
35:36
Speaker 1: impulsivity with enormous amounts of energy, which is what you
35:40
Speaker 1: have with mania, this to me is a perfect storm
35:44
Speaker 1: for fire setting. And also if defacts came so many times,
35:49
Speaker 1: did the neighbors call did the mother card from the
35:52
Speaker 1: family to control, but they wanted to keep him in
35:55
Speaker 1: the home and they wanted to take care of him.
35:57
Speaker 1: You know, when children act out, it's not always bad parenting.
36:00
Speaker 1: Sometimes children are born with psychiatric syndromes, and then there
36:04
Speaker 1: are parents who are desperate to get help for their children,
36:07
Speaker 1: but they just don't know what to do. Regardless of
36:09
Speaker 1: the charges, it seems that neuroscience, brain development all points
36:15
Speaker 1: to the fact that children this age nine years old
36:18
Speaker 1: are not culpable for what they do. That's why until
36:23
Speaker 1: you're an adult eighteen, you can't enter into a contract,
36:26
Speaker 1: you can't buy a car on your own, you can't
36:28
Speaker 1: get liquor. You can't get cigarettes are not supposed to.
36:31
Speaker 1: You can't get married, you can't enter into a sex
36:34
Speaker 1: relationship under the law because you are a child, and
36:38
Speaker 1: you may do those things without understanding the result the consequences.
36:45
Speaker 1: And here is a perfect example, Jason Oceans. Apparently a
36:51
Speaker 1: makeshift memorial was put up and the little boy would
36:55
Speaker 1: take food out to it, hoping that the family would
37:00
Speaker 1: eat it and enjoy it. He You know, like when
37:05
Speaker 1: someone's ill in our church community or a relative, I'll
37:09
Speaker 1: make dinner and take it over there for them to
37:12
Speaker 1: try to help them in some way. He doesn't even
37:15
Speaker 1: understand they're dead. It's just based on the you know,
37:20
Speaker 1: the psych profile that we've just listened to. Of course
37:25
Speaker 1: he doesn't. That's why I find it shocking to the
37:28
Speaker 1: conscience with this information out there, that the state's prosecutor
37:33
Speaker 1: seems determined to have an adult murder charge. Okay, wait
37:38
Speaker 1: a minute, Jason, you're ignoring the facts the way you
37:40
Speaker 1: keep ranting. In that jurisdiction, a child cannot be put
37:46
Speaker 1: into a state facility. I understand that under thirteen, So
37:50
Speaker 1: he's not going to jail. He's not going to be
37:52
Speaker 1: out the yard. Jason, any more. Of the reason not
37:56
Speaker 1: to charge as an adult, I disagree. I'll tell you
37:59
Speaker 1: why think you should be charge as an adult? Card
38:01
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's the reason to charge if he's
38:03
Speaker 1: not going into jail, into a facility anyway, what's are
38:07
Speaker 1: you three with your question? You're really dragging it out.
38:10
Speaker 1: The reason he should be charged as an adult is
38:13
Speaker 1: because with juvenile sentences they can only last, say, five years.
38:18
Speaker 1: What I want is not for him to go to jail.
38:20
Speaker 1: But apparently living at home ain't working. Defect has already
38:25
Speaker 1: been called thirteen times in eight years. He needs state
38:29
Speaker 1: cut his mind, he needs state supervision, he needs state
38:34
Speaker 1: enforced therapy, He needs state enforced doctors seeing him. Bethany Marshall,
38:42
Speaker 1: whatever mommy's doing is not working. Whatever she's doing is
38:45
Speaker 1: not working, and we don't have to blame her or
38:48
Speaker 1: the child to blame. I think we get so. No,
38:51
Speaker 1: I'm not yeah, I'm not saying it's her fault. I'm
38:54
Speaker 1: saying whatever is happening is not working. I'm not saying
38:59
Speaker 1: that she's beating the child or hurting the child. I'm
39:02
Speaker 1: saying whatever they're doing did not work. And now there's
39:05
Speaker 1: five did by three of them toddlers. The reason I
39:10
Speaker 1: said that is that neighbors, family members the system is
39:13
Speaker 1: often afraid to report and to remove the child from
39:16
Speaker 1: the home because they confuse it with blaming the parents
39:20
Speaker 1: or the child. And I think it's important for the
39:23
Speaker 1: listeners to know that we're not casting blame. We're just saying,
39:26
Speaker 1: as you just so eloquently put it, it's not working.
39:29
Speaker 1: And if it's not working to such disastrous effect, there
39:34
Speaker 1: are systems in place. There ares one in Orange County
39:38
Speaker 1: for child fire setters where they're they're very carefully delineated
39:44
Speaker 1: protocols for helping children who have impulsivity in acting out
39:50
Speaker 1: in this specific area. And what's unfortunate to me is
39:54
Speaker 1: when he's removed into a home, then he's not going
39:58
Speaker 1: to have that one on one tie to the mother.
40:00
Speaker 1: And yet sometimes I see in clinical practice Nancy being
40:05
Speaker 1: with a foster parent or some third degree relative is
40:08
Speaker 1: more helpful than being with the primary parent if there's
40:11
Speaker 1: such severe failures in the parents' ability to contain the
40:16
Speaker 1: child's behavior. Children playing with fire sent more than twenty
40:20
Speaker 1: thousand fires every year. That's an average of almost four
40:24
Speaker 1: hundred fires each week. Fire started by children just playing
40:31
Speaker 1: cause an average of one hundred and fifty deaths and
40:36
Speaker 1: nearly one thousand injuries every year. This child, God help him,
40:43
Speaker 1: needs help and supervision for a very long time. We
40:50
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story signing off
40:54
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend.