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Off Record: Red River Street (with Karen Kilgariff) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or
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  Speaker 2: exactly right media.
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  Speaker 3: And I looked down and I saw a shoe just
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  Speaker 3: laying by itself. And then I saw some blood on
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  Speaker 3: the sidewalk and I was staring at it like, what
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  Speaker 3: is this?
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to The Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton, and
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  Speaker 2: today we have a very special guest. You probably haven't
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  Speaker 2: heard of her or her show, so I'll go ahead
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  Speaker 2: and give.
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  Speaker 3: You an introduction.
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  Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Karen Kogara from My Favorite Murder.
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  Speaker 3: Hello. Meet me. So excited. I'm so excited.
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  Speaker 2: I was actually having a moment driving here because I
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  Speaker 2: was like, in 2020, my job in TV was coming
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  Speaker 2: to an end. I didn't know what I was going
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  Speaker 2: to do. I was listening to podcasts. I just tried to.
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  Speaker 3: Make my own.
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  Speaker 2: Thought maybe no one would listen to it. And actually,
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  Speaker 2: no one did listen to it. I just used it
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  Speaker 2: as like this, you know, resume builder.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, here I am. Yeah. Just six years later.
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  Speaker 3: Just six short years later. Yeah. But So glad you are.
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  Speaker 3: Me too.
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  Speaker 2: You know, also the knife is in its second year
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  Speaker 2: and that's also been so great. And Hannah's on leave
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  Speaker 2: and yeah, life just keeps happening.
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  Speaker 3: It really does. And your guys' show is such a
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  Speaker 3: beautiful kind of like testament to the journalistic research, the
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  Speaker 3: true crime that is beloved. And we're just so proud
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  Speaker 3: of you guys. Thank you. You know, in the most
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  Speaker 3: complimentary way possible. It's just like, it's such a cool show.
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  Speaker 3: thing to have you on our roster.
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  Speaker 2: We're so happy to be here. And yeah, when Hannah
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  Speaker 2: and I first came over to Exactly Right, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you know, we had gone through a few different iterations
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  Speaker 2: of what the show was actually going to be. And
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  Speaker 2: now this show is the knife, but what it would
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  Speaker 2: be and what we would be bringing to the true
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  Speaker 2: crime space that felt authentic to us, but something that
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  Speaker 2: maybe felt.
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  Speaker 3: New to people in a way.
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  Speaker 2: And we landed on this concept where we wanted to
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  Speaker 2: explore this, quote, ripple effect of crime and crime from
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  Speaker 2: all angles of people who have experienced it. So a
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  Speaker 2: lot of us have some version of a story like this.
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  Speaker 2: And today, Karen, we're going to speak about an incident
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  Speaker 2: you witnessed many years ago, came up in maybe a
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  Speaker 2: meeting where we were talking about different show ideas. And
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  Speaker 2: so this takes place on March 13th, 2014. I would
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  Speaker 2: love for you to just start us off with maybe
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  Speaker 2: a little bit about sort of where you were at
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  Speaker 2: in your life at this moment.
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  Speaker 3: Let's see. I was writing on a like a comedy
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  Speaker 3: kind of talk show. I had been doing that for
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  Speaker 3: a while. It was feeling like a stall-y period of
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  Speaker 3: life and Like it's a hard kind of job to do,
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  Speaker 3: especially I was often a head writer, which is management
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  Speaker 3: and middle management more than the creative, which is, of course,
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  Speaker 3: the fun part.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: So I was also doing stand up. So I got
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  Speaker 3: booked at South by Southwest and then the show was
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  Speaker 3: going to be there to do panels, I think. And
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  Speaker 3: so basically we got this like kind of week to
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  Speaker 3: go to South by and be there. So I had
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  Speaker 3: a lot of friends there. And of course, like standup
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  Speaker 3: comedians going to any festival, like we make a meal
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  Speaker 3: of it. And it was cool because it was like,
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  Speaker 3: I felt very kind of like, okay, this does feel good.
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  Speaker 3: I'm doing my thing. I have my career or whatever.
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  Speaker 3: At the same time, it was like the part of
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  Speaker 3: my career where I was like, I was always writing
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  Speaker 3: for other people, which is, The thing that makes this
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  Speaker 3: part of my career so satisfying and so great. But
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  Speaker 3: no complaints because, you know. Yeah. We got to get there. Right.
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  Speaker 3: To get there. Eventually. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Because this is two years before MFM. Right. Wow.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: To think of a world without it, you know. And
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  Speaker 3: to think of like where my head was at. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: so many things like 2016 was such a strange time.
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  Speaker 3: timeline to start in so many ways for it feels
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  Speaker 3: like everybody in America. But yeah, it was like I
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  Speaker 3: was feeling very I would like to make a change
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  Speaker 3: or I think I need to figure out what I'm
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  Speaker 3: going to do besides this because it isn't great. But yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: We get the fun part of working, which is going
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  Speaker 3: to a festival where people are like, oh, hooray, I
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  Speaker 3: like your show or I want to hear you talk
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  Speaker 3: about it or just go watch you stand up, whatever.
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  Speaker 2: And if I didn't know where this was going, I
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  Speaker 2: would think just performing stand up would be terrifying enough
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  Speaker 2: for us to cover this entire episode.
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  Speaker 3: The whole time I'm just complaining about how hard stand
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  Speaker 3: up is. It's so scary. And then this lady looked
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  Speaker 3: at me and she seemed mad. No, not at all.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: That's so funny, too, because it's like comedians are just
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  Speaker 3: a strange breed of people. And thinking about how much
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  Speaker 3: comedians love stuff like this, there was a show that
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  Speaker 3: year that was sponsored by a weed company. And I
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  Speaker 3: walked in and I was like, so sorry, everyone in
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  Speaker 3: the audience is high and everyone doing the show is high. Like,
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  Speaker 3: how are we going to do this? This is going
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  Speaker 3: to be insane. So it was like, it was just
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  Speaker 3: the fun. It's just like a big, long party for comics,
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  Speaker 3: at least. Yeah. That's what we were in the middle of.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And that's like spirits were high. Yes, exactly. If you
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  Speaker 3: are a performer, you get a pass. And so you
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  Speaker 3: get to go and after your show's done, just walk
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  Speaker 3: into any place to see the bands you want to see.
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  Speaker 3: And there's so many choices. And that part is like,
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  Speaker 3: Then it's really great. And that year, I don't know
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  Speaker 3: if they have done it before or since, but there
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  Speaker 3: were all these little houses kind of down by the
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  Speaker 3: river and each house was sponsored. So there was like
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  Speaker 3: the comedy house. There was like a big, huge setup
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  Speaker 3: in the backyard of like live podcasts, live standup shows.
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  Speaker 3: But then there was other houses with other types of performers, whatever.
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  Speaker 3: It felt very kind of Hollywood and exciting. Yeah. And
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  Speaker 3: probably you knew a lot of people there. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So it's kind of like going to a big college
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  Speaker 3: party of adults. Where it's like, when you're done with
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  Speaker 3: your thing, you know, let's party over there type of. Okay.
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  Speaker 3: Like a week of that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that sounds great. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Especially if you're at a moment in your career where
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  Speaker 2: you're like, what is this going to be really? It's
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  Speaker 2: just like a little lighter.
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  Speaker 3: Yes. Kind of like a little reward for the work
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  Speaker 3: being put in. And then you're there with your friends
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  Speaker 3: who are everybody's Right. You get to see all the
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  Speaker 3: bands you like to see. Now you get to see stand-ups.
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  Speaker 3: It's an entertainment festival. Spirits are high. It's all of
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  Speaker 3: that energy. I was there with my two friends, and
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  Speaker 3: we had just finished a show that we were both on.
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  Speaker 3: I believe X was playing at the theater. It's almost
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  Speaker 3: like a mini arena. Okay. Have you ever been to
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  Speaker 3: that one? No, I have no idea. It's crazy because
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  Speaker 3: there's so many people. venues in Austin. It's wild. So
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  Speaker 3: basically X is inside playing. We're kind of late because
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  Speaker 3: we were at our own show and we have our
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  Speaker 3: fancy passes. How late is it? I would say like 11. Okay.
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  Speaker 3: That's a guess. I could be wrong, but it's like
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  Speaker 3: after our show is done, but it's not crazy late.
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  Speaker 3: And We have these passes where, although you can walk
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  Speaker 3: right in, there's always a line because everybody's got a
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  Speaker 3: pass because everybody's a star and everybody's special. So there
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  Speaker 3: was a line of about 30 people trying to also
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  Speaker 3: get in to see X, which is very cool. And
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  Speaker 3: so we were standing there. We kind of had all
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  Speaker 3: decided that we wanted to go in. It was worth
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  Speaker 3: waiting for as opposed to just peeling off and, you know,
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  Speaker 3: meeting back at the comedy house or something. So I
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  Speaker 3: went to the end of the line. And so set
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  Speaker 3: it up that the street in front of this theater
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  Speaker 3: was blocked off on both ends a block long. So
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  Speaker 3: people are walking about in the street. Yes. Okay. So
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  Speaker 3: I believe they had those kind of like fold up
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  Speaker 3: things that are like don't drive down the street.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: They're just like the wooden sawhorses kind of things.
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  Speaker 2: It also probably was like generally known to people in
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  Speaker 2: the area this was going on.
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  Speaker 3: There were some street closures.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: It's South by Southwest. Yeah. People in that city know
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  Speaker 3: what's going on. And so many streets are closed that
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure like in that area, people just don't even
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  Speaker 3: try to drive around. So no one's really thinking about
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  Speaker 3: that part of it, that they're walking in the street.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think I would be. Yeah. And you do
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  Speaker 3: it the whole time. So going from place to place.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm standing in the back of this line and
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  Speaker 3: my two friends went in to see, could they just
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  Speaker 3: get straight in? Like we were trying to see how
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  Speaker 3: we avoid waiting in a line. And so I'm basically
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  Speaker 3: holding a place for us. And I start to realize
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  Speaker 3: we can hear every song perfectly from out here. There's
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  Speaker 3: no reason to wait in line or go inside. Like
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  Speaker 3: if we really want to hear X, we can just
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  Speaker 3: stand here and hang out on the street, whatever. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Or on the sidewalk or wherever we want. And we'll
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  Speaker 3: be able to fully get the concert and we just
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  Speaker 3: won't be able to see it. So that's what I'm
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  Speaker 3: thinking where I'm like, if this is already sold out,
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  Speaker 3: there's 30 people waiting. We're not getting in here. Like,
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  Speaker 3: let's just enjoy it. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Let's be realistic. Get a corn dog, whatever. So I
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  Speaker 3: get out of line and walk back up toward the
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  Speaker 3: front of the venue. And my friends are coming out
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  Speaker 3: of the venue. And I basically say, make my pitch
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  Speaker 3: of like, what's the point of this? So we're all
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  Speaker 3: kind of talking about what the options are. And As
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  Speaker 3: we're talking about it, I am standing facing the venue.
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  Speaker 3: My friends are facing me facing the street. And I
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  Speaker 3: hear a noise behind us that just sounds kind of
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  Speaker 3: like there's a loud car sound and kind of a
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  Speaker 3: loud contact sound. It just doesn't sound like anything crazy.
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  Speaker 2: And It's just like that sound where your brain is
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  Speaker 2: telling you, this is a sound that shouldn't be happening.
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  Speaker 3: Right, exactly. But not like your whole body jerks or anything.
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  Speaker 3: It wasn't to that degree for some reason in my memory.
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  Speaker 3: But also it's like thinking back on something like this
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  Speaker 3: is like, how well could I recall a moment that's
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  Speaker 3: this bizarre and kind of extreme? So what happened is,
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  Speaker 3: it's like my friends are looking forward and as I
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  Speaker 3: start to turn... It's a car charging up the street
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  Speaker 3: that had been blocked off. And what I think are
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  Speaker 3: cardboard boxes flying through the air, it's actually people. Because
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  Speaker 3: that car that turned up the street going probably 30,
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  Speaker 3: 40 miles an hour just plowed through that line I
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  Speaker 3: had just been standing in. And I kind of like,
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  Speaker 3: as I turned, I was like, oh, this is a
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  Speaker 3: horrible thing. And I turned back away. Like, you don't
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  Speaker 3: want to see what this is kind of thing. And
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  Speaker 3: I looked at both of my friends who, like, of course,
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  Speaker 3: were white as sheets. And kind of the craziest thing
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  Speaker 3: now to remember is that the car went through and
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  Speaker 3: then a cop car went through. So this was a
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  Speaker 3: high-speed chase where the lead car ran over and hit
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  Speaker 3: people and the cop car kind of followed them. I
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  Speaker 3: have no idea if they ran over people as well.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know what actually happened because I turned back away.
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  Speaker 3: But then when I turned around again, everybody on the
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  Speaker 3: other side of the street who wasn't in the street,
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  Speaker 3: everyone had their phones up and out like this. Like,
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  Speaker 3: it was this very strange, especially for... To record?
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Oh.
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  Speaker 3: Everybody. Everybody.
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  Speaker 1: Whoa.
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  Speaker 3: That was really shocking because I was like having that
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  Speaker 3: foremost in your mind. Maybe they had their phones in
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  Speaker 3: their hand. I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: But all of a sudden it was just like this
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  Speaker 3: and it was like everybody recording. Wow. And I was
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  Speaker 3: like this. And then I just grabbed the hand of
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  Speaker 3: a girl standing next to me because I was like,
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  Speaker 3: what the fuck is going on? And it was like
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  Speaker 3: we both grabbed hands and we're just kind of looking
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  Speaker 3: and there's just people, probably 15 people just laying in
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  Speaker 3: the street.
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  Speaker 2: And....
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  Speaker 3: I looked down and I saw a shoe just laying
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  Speaker 3: by itself. And then I saw some blood on the
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  Speaker 3: sidewalk and I was staring at it like, what is this?
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  Speaker 3: Because it was like it happened in pieces, even though
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  Speaker 3: it was clearly just a kind of thing.
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  Speaker 2: It's that phenomenon you hear about where your brain sort
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  Speaker 2: of slows things down and breaks it up because you're
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  Speaker 2: in the moment. You know, you turned away to spare
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  Speaker 2: yourself emotionally of having to witness it, which is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: your brain and probably just reacting really quickly like you're
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  Speaker 2: not going to want this imagery. Yes.
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  Speaker 3: And I think it already did it because I had
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  Speaker 3: the imagery and it changed it into cardboard boxes. That
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  Speaker 3: was crazy. And it's like, oh, I saw people flying
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  Speaker 3: through the air. Obviously, everyone did. But as I was
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  Speaker 3: staring at the shoe and the blood, my friend Andy,
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  Speaker 3: Andy Peters, one of the funniest and goofiest comedians of
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  Speaker 3: all time, turned into everyone's dad. I was just holding
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  Speaker 3: this girl's hand and like kind of looking around and
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  Speaker 3: I just didn't know what we were supposed to do.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know. It was just all like, holy shit.
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  Speaker 3: And Andy Peters... puts his hand on me and our
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  Speaker 3: other friend's shoulders and goes, we're getting out of here
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  Speaker 3: right now. We started walking down the street, kind of downhill,
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  Speaker 3: where the car had broken through that direction. And that
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: is obviously where kind of the most damage to human
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: bodies had been done. So we got down near the
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  Speaker 3: shoe and then he went, no, turn around, turn around
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  Speaker 3: and keep your eyes down on the ground. And basically
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  Speaker 3: turned us around and walked us back out. If it
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  Speaker 3: wasn't for Andy Peters, I think I would have stood
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  Speaker 3: there just like staring and just like, I don't know.
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  Speaker 3: It was so beyond anything I'd ever experienced. Luckily, in
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: my life, I've been in car accidents. I've definitely caused
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: car accidents. I've like rear-ended more people. My dad can
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: do a whole monologue about it in any holiday. But
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  Speaker 3: I had never been near anything like that extreme. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And so basically it was like, we're getting out of here.
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  Speaker 3: And then Andy walked us up the street and then
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: we turned and just started walking. And we just kept saying,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: holy shit, over and over. Holy shit, what was that? Like,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: are those people dead? Like, just saying it, whatever. And
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: we ended up walking about five miles back to the
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: comedy house. Wow. But... Later on, I learned that that's
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: kind of the best thing we could have done for
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: the adrenaline in our system. Oh, interesting. That it's like
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: being able to immediately get clear the adrenaline is like
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: one of the better things you can do for a
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: shocking experience like that. Did you have any idea how
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: far you would walk? No. Yeah, you were just in
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: like a... We kept thinking we were going to try
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: to get into a cab. We kept thinking like we'll
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: make a different plan, but we just didn't. It was
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: like we were being kind of powered by that adrenaline
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: and that panic. I can't explain it. I think we
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: also felt guilty, like we should have stayed and given
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: our version. But it's like my version was cardboard boxes. Yeah,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: it was just a very extreme, shocking, and kind of
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: mystifying experience. Because then when we finally got to the
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  Speaker 3: comedy house where everybody we knew was... Like, we tried
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  Speaker 3: to explain what we had just gone through, and no
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: one knew what we were... Like, everyone's like, whoa, what? Okay. And, like,
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  Speaker 3: it was the worst place to go.
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  Speaker 2: Right, because you're walking into this room of, like, warmth
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  Speaker 2: and happiness and excitement, and you're like, I just witnessed
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  Speaker 2: utter tragedy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And we were kind of trying to explain it
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  Speaker 3: to people, but, like, we were getting mad. And I'm
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  Speaker 3: sure people were drunk. I'm sure they were, like, partying
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: and having fun. It was absolutely, like... We just, we
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: wanted to be near familiar faces, kind of.
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  Speaker 2: Did you hear and see a lot of commotion from
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  Speaker 2: like ambulances, cop cars on your way out?
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  Speaker 3: No, we didn't. I think at places like that, they
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: have ambulances parked every couple blocks. Yeah, that makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: So I think there was an ambulance on site as
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: we turned that corner and we're walking up. I'm pretty
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: sure one was driving down. I just don't know. what
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: that post scene looked like at all. And I am
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: selfishly very grateful that I don't know. And then it
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: took me like a couple of days when I realized
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: if I had stayed in line, I would have been
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: the first person hit because I was last in line.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: Like that idea of getting out of line, which is
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: just like, why did I, why did, Why didn't I
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: wait three minutes more? Like there are all those kinds
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: of things that start to kind of come to your
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: mind when you're around something like that. Yeah.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Like those questions, they linger. You know, your brain just
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: never lets you forget something like that. Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: My father was a fireman. My mom was a nurse.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: So there are people who were fine in emergency situations.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, they were very trained.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to make more of it than need be.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be like, well, it could have
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: been me. Like that to me is a selfish, weird stance,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: but it is like a fact of the story and
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: it is kind of how I feel. But that difference,
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: that kind of like telling the story from the position
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: I get to tell it from, as opposed to somebody
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: that actually was there, I'm insanely grateful, but it also
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: is very eerie. Yeah, it was just such a, so
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: close and so, just so violent. It was really violent.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked into the incident because I had heard
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: of it. I remembered it immediately when you had mentioned
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: that you were there when it happened, but I didn't
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: know anything about it beyond that people were hit and
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that there were fatalities. And looking into it, so it
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: was a high-speed chase. A man named Rashad Owens, who
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: was 21 years old, was driving drunk and he died.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: tried to evade a police checkpoint. And at that point,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: this high-speed chase ensues. And, you know, I don't know
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: what that officer's training was or wasn't, but you have
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to wonder in those moments of, like, you have a
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: lot of foot traffic right now in this area at
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: this specific moment, widely known a lot of foot traffic.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Is there a way to handle this other than a
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: high-speed chase if you are already assuming maybe this person's
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: been drinking?
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he sped down, you know, a one-way street.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: He drove through wooden barricades into a dense crowd outside
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: the Mohawk nightclub.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: The Mohawk, that's right.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And there were four fatalities and 23 people injured. But yeah,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: it was Stephen Kramer, 35 years old, from Amsterdam, Jamie
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: West from Austin, Sandy Lee from Mississippi, and DeAndre Tatum
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: from Fort Worth all passed away. And, you know, the arrest,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: police eventually catch Owens shortly after the crash and a
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Texas jury convicted him of capital murder. Life in prison
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: without the possibility of parole. And following this incident, South
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: by Southwest and city police added stronger barricades during this festival,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: better lighting, parked patrol vehicles at intersections to protect the pedestrians.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you know, they did enact, I think, stronger precautions. And
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Rashad Owens, he was a father of six. He was
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: raised in a very Christian home, moved a lot as
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a kid, had earned his GED in Alaska and was
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: studying music production through an online program. I mean, it's terrible, right?
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: It's like he's in prison for the rest of his life.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: His kids will grow up without their dad.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: He's 21. He was 21.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And when you think about like, You know, there's no excuse.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: But at 21, I mean, you are a baby. Like
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the dumb things I did at 21. The selfish things
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I did at 21.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Yes. I saw a bunch of old friends last night
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: and we were talking about that and the risks we
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: took that we didn't realize how risky they were. We
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: didn't realize what we were kind of buying into and
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: how lucky we were that it never, you know, it
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: never resulted in like a DUI or something like that.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: But it could have and in certain instances should have.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: And it doesn't really work that way. But something like
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: this where it's like, to me, it's another life lost situation.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: A 21-year-old man, father of six, who's just in prison
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: for life now.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Not making excuses, but it's just... That's its own tragedy.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: It's a compounded tragedy upon tragedy. It's just horrible.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like if you believe that people are
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: redeemable at all, you have to wonder, is it a 21-year-old,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: their whole life ahead of them? But then it's like
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: for the families of the victims, you know, that what
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: is it to them to have some level of accountability?
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: When I think back to my early 20s, I was
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: living in New York at the time. I had gone
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to school. I went to Wazoo in Pullman, Washington, in
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: a wheat farming town. I brought my horses to school
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: with me.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: I brought my dog. I didn't drink.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I knew nothing of the outside world.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: And then you moved to New York.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I moved to New York because I had a high
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: school boyfriend from when I was, I think I had
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: just turned 16 when we started dating. We dated until
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: like the last semester that I was in college. And
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I decided just on a whim, I was like, it's
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: not the right person for me. And we broke up.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And I was like, I think if I go home
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: now to Western Washington, where I'm from, I don't think
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I will leave. And so I just decided to move
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: to New York. But the point of me telling you
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: that is that when I moved to New York, I
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: had never drank. Here I was meeting people who are
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: still some of my lifelong friends, but I wanted to
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: be cool. I had never had sushi before. I'm like, yeah,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I love sushi. I had never drank.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Give me some of that. Yeah.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: And so all of a sudden I'm making terrible decisions.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: But I mean, yeah, your early 20s, you do very
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: stupid things.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: It also makes me wonder, and I totally hear you
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: with the victims who just were trying to be at
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: a music festival, like nobody is trying to argue that
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: no one should have been punished for a crime like that.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I just wonder when someone is running from something like
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: a DUI stop is like, was his whole life on
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: the line? Was it like, if something like this happens again,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I'm done? Or it makes me kind of go into
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: that of like, what was behind the idea? Because I
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: feel like, and I could be wrong, but what I
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: feel like, what I remember is that there was a
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: gas station at the corner bottom of the block. And
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I think he cut through the gas station or is
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: there something about that part that maybe was the first
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: thing that everybody heard of like there's crazy car stuff.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: But like I think everyone on that street was like, well,
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: that's just for over there because, of course, we're on
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: this blocked off street. Like there's this very naive festival
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: attitude of like, well, that's that stuff over there. It's
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: blocked off.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: No one would ever think to drive through it. Right.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: You wouldn't even come near here. And obviously everybody knows
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: this famous festival is taking place. Yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, just that insanity and the desperation. But also
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: to me, the police following was the thing that really,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: the day of, the night of, bothered me so much
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: because it's like, that cop car... must have run over bodies. Like,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: what was that cop doing?
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: That was so important in that moment, because it's arresting,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: it's like, if you're not going to be able to
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: stop him before he gets to this crowd of people,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: then maybe it can wait until he can navigate around
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: them without the pressure of a cop chasing him.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And I mean, there's a lot of conversations around the
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: purpose of high-speed chases. And I was actually driving to
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Pasadena one day and there was one that happened right
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: past me and it was a green Jeep and it
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: ended up crashing into like the Warner Brothers lot. And
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone was hurt miraculously, but when it
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: passed me, it was going so fast that I remember
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: thinking like, I don't even want to be on this
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: freeway anymore.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm curious, obviously my favorite murder is a
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: true crime comedy podcast, but having just lived life and
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: experienced something like this, Do you think it's had any
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: impact on the way you hear true crime stories or
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: produce true crime content?
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah. I mean, I think everybody can tell a
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: story like this in some way and easily tell a
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: story like as a witness or as a person who
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: left unscathed. And really underlining that, that I absolutely know
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: this is not a story about me, except for that
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: I was lucky enough to get to walk away unscathed, which,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: you know, many people didn't. And I think the thing
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: that people liked about our podcast was acknowledging the reason
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: you're interested in true crime is because maybe you haven't
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: left a situation unscathed. Maybe there is a comfort in
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: knowing you're not alone or that other people understand or understand.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: You know, there's a million ways to approach, but the
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: idea that just because you are consuming something doesn't mean
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: you know it very well, I think was an incorrect
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: assumption that got kind of cleared out when true crime
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: really started making the wave that it made in 2016.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: It all happened very simultaneously, and there was this audience
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: that was like, we are absolutely here for this. I
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: do think that that, for myself, that exact situation didn't
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: change the way I approach talking about true crime. hearing
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: people from our audience talk to us about what they
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: wanted to hear and what they didn't want to hear
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: is what changed the way I talked about true crime. Because,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: you know, there's the aspect of it where you kind
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: of can go, oh, in talking about something like this,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: you can say, okay, I take comfort for the fact
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: this hasn't happened to me. And now that I know
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: that these are the details of what happened to this person,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I can memorize those details and make sure it doesn't
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: happen to me, which of course, you know, very well
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: is all fake and just a way we all kind
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: of comfort ourselves, especially women in this culture. But I
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: do think that these are human stories. Horrible things happen
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: to people a lot. And turning away from it, putting
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: a nice face on it, pretending it didn't happen, isn't
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: the way to process it and grow better from it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: And I think that's maybe part of it is like,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: there are people who are like, it shouldn't be, quote unquote, entertainment.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: And it's like, right, it isn't in that same way.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: It's a different, I guess, interest that people have, which
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: oftentimes is about self-soothing or it's about making an experience
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: that lives inside you feel better than it does.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: In my work in true crime, it feels very much
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: like connection. And even though I have never experienced what
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: these people have experienced that I'm interviewing, but you know,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: sometimes people will sort of ask me like, oh, I
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: could never do that. That's too sad or too hard.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And look, like there are definitely moments where I have
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: to take a step back. I mean, I've noticed, especially
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: since having my daughter, like sometimes I get like way
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: more emotional than I ever did before. But at the
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: end of the day, like when I'm speaking with someone
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: about what happened to them, sometimes, you know, they'll sort
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: of stop and just say like, no.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: One's asked me about this in years. And You know,
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: I still think about it every day.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, I recently interviewed someone who is, it's
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: on our feed about an embryo fraud, this person who
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: went through IVF. And she was like, my husband doesn't
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: like to talk about it. And I was thinking like,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: that's understandable. But I also wonder how that would feel.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: to go through IVF, learn that your doctor was like
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: this world-class con artist who was stealing reproductive material. And
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: then your husband is processing it in a way that
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: is different than you.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: And so it meant so much to her to share
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: her story. But yeah, I think it just also reminds
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: me everyone's gone through something.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: And it's that cliche. I mean, not cliche, but you
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: hear it all the time. Like everyone's fighting a battle
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: you don't know about.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: And, you know, it's really true.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And I'll interact with someone and They'll remind me of,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: you know, a mom I just interviewed whose daughter was missing.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And you're like, you just really don't know because people
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: have to get up and live their life every day
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: carrying God knows what. And for me, that's like the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: purpose in it. You know, people are interested in crime
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: because I think something Hannah and I especially learned on Opportunist,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: our last show, was that People don't usually wake up
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: one day and decide to do something criminal.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Yes. Right.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: All of us are probably always teetering on doing right
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: or wrong. And people get in over their heads. There's
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: also people who, you know, yeah, they're problematic. But usually
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: even in those instances, they have a history that has
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: built them in that way.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: And there's a reason. There's a reason. Everybody has their reasons.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: And I do think the point of life is not
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: to stay comfortable. You can't. It's like as we all
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: go through life and age, more and more stuff happens
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: to you or stuff, you know, accrues over time. And
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: this idea that we're all supposed to live untouched and
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: be happy all the time is bad for you, I think, because...
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: It doesn't brace you. And I mean, this is very much,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: you can tell I came from first generation, you know,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: immigrant family, because it's that thing of like, how do
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: you stay strong so you can feed your family, so
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: you can, you know, establish your home here? How do
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: you get through it? How do you have three jobs
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: and work them all anyway? And then something like this happens,
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: you know, that is what life is. And I think,
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: you know, hearing people talk about it or knowing and
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: witnessing what people go through You know, when we do
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: our stories, every once in a while we'll get a
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: quote from like a survivor or a family member. And
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: it's this beautiful chunk of wisdom that's earned. It's what
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: they get to come to after a horrible experience and
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: a heartbreaking experience, which is what we're all supposed to
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: try to do with our horrible experiences, you know.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and to those people who are willing to share
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: that side of themselves after having gone through something terrible,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: it's like, in those cases, I'm like, oh, how lucky
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: am I that I didn't have to experience that and
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: can choose to carry this with.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Me and learn something from this.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, that to me is like when
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I really started to love producing quote unquote true crime content.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, wow, people are going through a lot and like,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I want to hear these stories.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's a good way for them to... you know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: it is talk therapy in some ways, but it's also
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: validating because it's like, of course you care about these
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: things that happen to these people. And it's like, people
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: should know people care about them. They should know that
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: that's the thing that, you know, that's how many people
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: that I know approach the content. It's like, what happened?
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Why did it happen? What can I do for myself preventatively?
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: What can I do for people who've been through something
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: like this? Like, that's kind of how we made our
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: way through what we were doing. Because we started in
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: just complete ignorance thinking we were talking to each other.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: And then suddenly it's like, now you have to figure
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: out how to do this correctly.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, the way your show grew, it's amazing. And
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I feel like certainly I would be grateful for that
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: level of growth. But it's also like the stakes get
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: really high really quickly before you know what you know
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: years later. And it's like you're just talking to your
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: friend and you both have this like comedy background. And
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, there are ears from everywhere listening. Yeah,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: that's a lot.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. But look, I couldn't be more grateful
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: every day because I know myself and I know my motivation.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: So if other people feel differently, that's up to them.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: But I also think that in situations like this, like
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: I would like to next time be the Andy Peters.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Because I didn't know what the fuck was going on
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: when we were going through that. And for some reason,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Andy had this thing in him. He was like, nope,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: look down. Do not look at the street. Like he
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: guided both of us out of this war zone type
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: of like it was it was so extreme. And he
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: just kind of got us out of there. You know,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: he would laugh and I would say this to him.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Like you would be the last person I would choose
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: to think that you would do this. Because he's if
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: you saw his comedy, he's just so funny and so goofy.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: But he had this thing in him, which is like,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: and that's the other piece, is we are called upon
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: in life to become more than what we are because
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: of the shit that comes at us. I mean, I
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: remember talking to my sister when I got back. I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: took a couple of days off work and I called
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: my sister at one point. She's my older sister. And
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: I was like. I don't want to like do the
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: thing where all of a sudden I start screaming in
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: the grocery store or something that's like I'm going to
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: surprise myself with the shock or trauma of that experience.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: And my sister goes, how long has it been? And
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: I go, I don't know, 48 hours. And she goes,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: you're fine.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, Older sister absolutely can attest to that.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: As the older sister.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: It's like if they say so. I said something and
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: I was just like, well, just what if something happens?
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: And she goes, but it didn't happen to you. As
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: close as it got, it didn't happen to you. Like,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: don't take on problems that are not yours because it
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: would be so sad if it had happened to you.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: It really did happen to real people. And you can
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: step out of that situation. what if my mental whatever,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: because it's like, because you don't qualify for that. So
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: step back, get a real sense of what your life
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: is and how lucky you are. And what a miracle
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: it is that you decided you didn't want to wait
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: in line, that you're a diva and you walked out
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: of that line. And then you had a really good
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: friend that got you out of there before, you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: it got into true mayhem. It's kind of like that is,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: I think, a good approach to where it's like you
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: don't have to stare horrible things that happen to make
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: it so that you're doing some sort of penance. Life
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: is hard enough and you will have your own problems
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: and save it for that stuff and like be there
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: for other people and be sensitive of what other people
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: go through. But don't conceptualize about hardship, like feel the
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: real lack of the hardship and keep it moving.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like in the best interviews, the interviewer is not
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: centering themselves in the story. And it's like that sometimes happens.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: I think people want the other person or in experiences
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: like this where maybe they had a close call, but
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: someone else was an actual victim. It's like, There's a
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: need to fill this, like, I do feel bad. I
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: do understand. But I think your older sister gave you
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: great advice.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Right? I mean. It was very well-timed, too, because I was, like,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: just entertaining enough where I was like, that was kind
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: of horrible. What if... What if? Whatever. And then Laura
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: was just like, no, no, just don't. No, don't do it.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: You're not going to scream in the grocery store. Get
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: yourself together.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: Stop it. Go back to work.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: In a few years, there'll be DoorDash. Like, yes, it'll
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: be fine.
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: You'll be fine. And then a couple of years after that,
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: something very big is going to happen. I mean, I
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: think that's the other thing, too, is how do ambulance drivers,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: how do EMTs show up to a scene like that?
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: There's so much more to consider and talk about that
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: has nothing to do with the people that were able
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: to walk away. And that kind of out of context
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: horror to me is like the people who came in
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: afterwards and got the 24 people that had to be hospitalized,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: like got them out of there, got them stabilized, whatever
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: it is. It's like that's why we call those people
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: the heroes is because it is genuinely heroic to walk away.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: into a thing like that. Oh my gosh.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I know. My good friend, her husband was an EMT
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: for a long time and he would come home from
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: work and just be really quiet, but then he would
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: get up and, you know, do it again. And I mean,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: he saw everything doing that in L.A., but he's the
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: right man for the job.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: Right. Like so calm, so.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Collected when I'm like, wow, I'm glad there are people
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: who can do that.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for real.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I'm curious because, you know, your work involves crime stories.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Do you have any crime stories that you follow just
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: because you're interested in them?
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: You know what was weird? Well, just about this one.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: We could not find anything about this for so long.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Andy and I actually sat up that night back at
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: our friends like Airbnb and just sat in his room
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: in the Airbnb waiting for it to come on the
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: local news. And it never did.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: That's actually surprising given that people were immediately recording because
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: this was still like Twitter and everything else.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, I have to imagine.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: I don't remember when we could start posting videos on
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Twitter even.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I know. I don't either. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, Twitter was another thing, like thinking about, you know,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: you guys starting MFM and having this enormous growth back
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: before maybe fully understanding the scope of what was happening.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: But I had a.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Twitter early in my 20s, right after I moved to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: New York. I thought I was going to be a
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: comedy writer. And I was making all kinds of jokes
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: with no understanding of the bigger world.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: And I had a moment, maybe I was 25, where
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like, this will be permanently deleted.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: I have a lot to learn.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And I look back at that moment and I'm like,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: thank you, 25-year-old Pasha. Like, I needed you to do
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: that in that moment because it grew quickly because Twitter
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: was smaller at the time.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: And so, gosh. But we can't know what we don't
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: know when we don't know it. And I think that
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: the internet is really wants to punish people for not
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: always knowing everything since day one. But that's just kind
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: of the nature of social media is just it's mostly
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: there for cancellation. It's mostly there for judgment. I am
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: a willing participant in all of those things. So it's
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: like my thing was always like, yeah, well, this is
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: my numbers up. Like I've been asking to be a performer, be,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: you know, in the business in some way. This is
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: what it's like to be in the business. You hear
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: back from people who Either don't like you or want
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: you to do things differently. And I think part of
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: the reason we were popular in the beginning is because
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: we did. Like we listened to people and then made
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: adjustments and talked about mistakes, which I think isn't that common.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: It's a hard thing to do. You know, it's embarrassing.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: and it's hard to be wrong and to fuck up
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: and all those things. But I do think that like
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: bigger picture, I'm so proud of the fact that nowadays
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: it's like the concept of red flags is just standard practice.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Women are talking to each other all the time and communicating.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: They're not agreeing to kind of weirdly be pitted against
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: each other or buy into kind of that old thinking. Like,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: I feel like there is this very real progress that's
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: been made, especially for women, because of those conversations. You
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: know what I mean? Whether it's the Tinder swindler and
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: people talking about like what bad boyfriends look like versus,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: you know, people learning what love bombing is. Totally.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Like things I had no concept of 15 years ago.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, I met my husband about 15 years ago,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: but he wasn't one of those people.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: He loved Bombay just right. Yeah, our first date at Hugo's.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: I was like, the lighting is horrible. What is this place?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, the conversations that happen, like even
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: on the night of a relatively new show, we've had
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: some feedback that has been a little bit like, you know,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: first of all, I get this, like, my stomach tightens
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: because I don't want to have done something wrong or
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: embarrassing or hurtful to the person we spoke with. But,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: you know, then you sit with it and you're like, oh, okay,
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I can really take this and learn from it and
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: do better in my next interview. And so I'm grateful
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: for that feedback.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Criticism is tough, especially because who is this person? Like,
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: that was always my thing is, like, luckily I was
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: middle-aged when all this happened and had already been a
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: stand-up and already had a little bit of that kind
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: of experience, worked with people who were very much in
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: the public eye. So like I had a little bit
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: of awareness of the possibilities of the insanity, but I
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: thank God wasn't in my twenties because I knew, you know,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I wasn't there to be a model and I wasn't
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: there to, you know what I mean? The hot or
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: not question was never relevant to me. I was like
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: already almost 30 when all of that stuff started. So
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: the internet, that kind of like living in it and
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: on it never made sense to me in the first place.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: And then that feeling of when someone criticized, it's the
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: old thing of like, if someone criticizes you, you remember
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: it forever. And if they praise you, you'll forget it immediately.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: And that I think is the, that's the money making
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: element of the internet is like, oh, did this thing
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: make your stomach seize? Great, we'll make 20 more of
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: those because that's how we get your attention. Yeah, it's
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: so funny.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Like we have all these great reviews and I remember
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: the emails where people were unhappy and I think of
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: them a hundred times more.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Word for word.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: I remember the tweet where the girl said, why these two?
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: And I was reading it and then I was just like, oh,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: that's kind of true. And then it's just like, then
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: you feel like you're almost in a relationship with some rando. Right. Where...
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: It's like that can be their opinion. It's like, but
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: why would I suddenly be like, this is fact? And
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: I think that practice, I don't know, all of it
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: is good practice for like.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: In life, you know, you're not going to do everything
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: right all the time. So like, how are you going
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: to react when you don't? And. If people are going
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: to trust me with their stories and putting them out there,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: then I just tell myself, well, realistically, I want all
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: the feedback I can get.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: Yes. Because that is important.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: You know, there was an episode earlier on in the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: show with a woman named Tennyson Jacobson who her and
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: her husband together fought off a home invader. He was,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: I think, deemed mentally ill, but he was there to
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: kill her. He was there to kill her. And her husband...
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: happened to be this like CrossFit high school wrestler, college wrestler,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: something like that. And he was able to physically restrain
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: this man for, I think, almost 20 minutes. It was
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: a long time, like truly full body exhaustion. But there
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: was a moment in the episode where the guy had
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: come to the house earlier that day, but he had left.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: And so they were all freaked out, but the police
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: assured them they never come back. So they all were like, okay,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I guess they never come back. And so at like
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: one o'clock in the morning, their little dogs start barking
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: and Tennyson wakes up her husband and she's like, can
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: you take them out?
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: I'm just like still freaked out.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: And he... Gave her like what is such a normal
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: reaction of like, I'm annoyed. You know, he probably didn't
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: pick out these Yorkies, right?
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: And so he's getting up with these dogs and take
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: them outside at one o'clock in the morning out in
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the woods. And so in whatever way she just in
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: relaying this interaction to us expressed that her husband was
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: like just slightly annoyed that this was happening. And the
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: way that people reacted to that was so harsh on him.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, like, wow, this man is
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: a hero in this story.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Like a hero.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: He saved basically his entire family. I mean, him and
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Tennyson worked together and it was a tragic situation all around.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: But he was able to restrain this man who was
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: there to kill her.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: And because he reacted in a moment about taking dogs out,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: people jumped on that. And I thought like, whoa, that
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: was not, I hadn't even gone there.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: And so now, you know, for example, like that episode,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: now when we make those calls in editing, I'm like,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: how is this going to come off? And just trying
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: to make really sure because I'm sure that sucked because
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: the reviews were like, there was a lot of engagement
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: on that episode that was calling that out.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And it was hard. It's so strange. It's very hard
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: to anticipate things like that. And then... they can take
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: on a life of their own. And it's that kind
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: of thing where it's like the internal, or I will
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: say the, what I would assume is the kind of
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: spirit of it, of like, you know, don't make things
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: OK for men who don't treat women well, which is like, sure, sure.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: But you're putting that on a situation where actually you're
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: not listening to the story, because if this guy was
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: a selfish asshole, the back end of the story would
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: have never happened.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Like it's that kind of thing where they call that
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: the bean soup theory, where it's just like, what about
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: me and my beans? I also think there's a part
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: of the Internet that that is fake. And it is absolutely,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know there's plenty of real people with
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: real opinions, but there's also a bunch of bot generated,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: putting things places, you know, like everyone wants a hot take.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: So there's no hot take in saying what an amazing
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: story and what a great husband. Yeah. It's just waiting
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: to be enraged. Yes.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Or mad at someone and you're like, wait a second,
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: but you know, I put that out into the world.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: And like, yeah, that is something that I don't take lightly.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: And yeah, learning experience. It's just so weird. It's like
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: podcasts are forever. I'm the most grateful for realizing when
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: I first signed up on Twitter, because I was a
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: little bit late. And I remember when I was about
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: to do it, I was like, just remember, every single
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: thing you write can be brought up later. Like this
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: is permanent internet permanence. And so anytime I would do
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: anything that even would be, because there was like before 2016,
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: there was that era of kind of like, I'm being edgy.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: This is edgy comedy that then two, three years later
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: was like, oh my God, how dare you're the worst
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: person in the world. This is why I deleted my Twitter. Yeah.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, for real, right? Because you're like, oh, I
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: actually didn't mean it that way. Oh, wait, but I see.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: You're right. And I should have never even been in this. Like,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: And that sensitivity, while oftentimes very important, there's oftentimes people
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: reacting because it's like you've never listened to this group
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: of people before. There's people where they're like, no, you
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: don't get to say that. We finally have the microphone.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: You don't get to say that anymore. Yeah, a good thing.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: Great all around. But then you're sitting there like it
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: oftentimes puts people in that like hyper defensive, like, well,
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: now I'm going to triple down. I think that's a
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: big part of like the red pill reaction.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: Evolution is people being like, I can't be wrong. How
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: dare you? I'm not going to apologize. You're wrong. And
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: just up, up, up.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Or like blaming everything on quote cancel culture.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: It's like.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Is it cancel culture or is this person someone who
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: really needs to take a seat and take accountability?
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Looking back on like old magazine covers from the
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: 2000s where it's like, disgusting. How did we, what were
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: we doing? And cancel culture is the reason all of
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: that got curbed because it was like a frat party
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: everywhere we looked kind of.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember my dad is a, he worked at
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Microsoft for a long time. And so he was very
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: much thinking about like, the internet and his kids being
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: on the internet. And he told me from the very
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: first moment I got online, he was like, which I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: don't think I was even allowed to like have my
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: space or Facebook until I was, I think in college
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: or maybe late high school. Like this is forever. Anything
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: you put out there, it's forever. And I remember thinking,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not worried about any of this.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile, we're all uploading like full albums.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, every horrible night out or like Halloween costume
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: or you're just, you know, I don't know what it.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Was, but luckily it was pretty tame. But yeah, I
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: deleted that too. Yeah. You never know.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: It's such a different world. And it's a world, I mean,
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: now that I don't personally have a lot of control
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: in because I don't know anything about computers. I can
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: barely use my stupid phone. So it's like less is
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: more for me. And also it's like, that's fine because
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: I'm an old gal. I claim old. But I do
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: think that people get on and they get very, they
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: tell themselves they're making a difference or that kind of
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: idea of watching a bunch of other people do something
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to do it too. And there's not
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of critical thinking is a thing that I
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: would love to see also evolve along with all the
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: other things that we watch evolve as they exist and
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: become a big part of our culture.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah I would love to see that too I
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: also want them to figure out how to detect who
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: are bots because bots are telling people what to do
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: and how to do it. The most insane, like you'll
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: be scrolling Instagram and all of a sudden it's an ad.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Quit your job.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: You could make five grand a month doing this from home.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: And you're like, there is someone out there who thinks
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: this is real. Like this can't be on the internet.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: But it is, you know.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: It is. So hopefully that's all figured out before my
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: kid is on the Internet because I'm scared.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: You just move to a mountaintop, you'll be fine. Just
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: go to a mountaintop.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll get the phone out at a restaurant in
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: a moment of desperation and we have videos uploaded. Well,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: my husband sweetly uploads anything to do with the knife.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: And so it'll pop up like Hannah and I and
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: she'll start going, Mama!
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: Mama! mama, like at the screen. I'm like, oh my gosh,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: this is so cute. But eventually I'll have to monitor
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: her a little more closely. Yeah, that's right.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: The time today, Karen. Of course. I love this show.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Thank you. You guys are really great at what you do.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Thank you. We're so happy to be here. Yay. So fun.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that's our episode for today. Thanks for listening
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: and we'll be back next week. If you have a
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: story for us, we would love to hear it. Our
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com. Or you can follow us
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: The Knife Podcast.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: by me, Hannah Smith.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Alexa Samorosi.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.