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How to Become an Authentic Leader in Uncertain Times with HR Expert Neil Cosby · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:36
  It's Roxanne Derhodge of, authentically with Roxanne.
• 0:40
  Today, I have a a guest that, I can tell you the last podcast was awesome, and, we had some
• 0:46
  phenomenal feedback, and that's Neil Cosby.
• 0:49
  Neil, thanks so much for coming back on again to chat with us and it's more specifically
• 0:54
  today on leadership.
• 0:56
  I am so happy to be here, Roxanne.
• 0:58
  I appreciate being able to come back and, provide my inputs and, listen to your inputs as
• 1:06
  well, which are are phenomenal.
• 1:09
  So let's just dive right in because, you know, in in at this time, you know, leadership more
• 1:14
  than ever is in the spotlight we are needing truly and looking for looking to our leaders
• 1:21
  for guidance perspective.
• 1:23
  I would say strength and, safety in a time when when there's, you know, a lot of, uncertainty.
• 1:30
  So I just wanted to talk you a little bit about, what I call authentic leadership, which
• 1:36
  is just the capacity to be present regardless of what's going on around you.
• 1:42
  So let's talk a little bit about with, authentic leadership.
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  What is your, like, with companies that you deal with on an ongoing basis or just consult
• 1:53
  with, even if it's a one off, what are some of the things that you've experienced with really,
• 1:58
  authentic leaders that are connected to themselves?
• 2:01
  Yeah.
• 2:01
  Great question.
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  And, as you know, but for the benefit of, people that are listening in, I'm in the nuts
• 2:07
  and bolts of HR.
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  So I build the HR infrastructure, the the performance, a lot of what I do, is around
• 2:16
  legislation, mandatory training, kind of the regulations and the rules.
• 2:21
  And there are those that come because they have a strong commitment to wanting that in place so
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  that their employees feel safe.
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  Their employees feel confident.
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  Their employees feel that they're knowledgeable and that they are ethically morally and
• 2:38
  probably legally, doing what they're supposed to do, but more than that is, it's not just a,
• 2:45
  something that they're doing because they have to or, a term I use, you know, cover your butt.
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  It it comes from a place of carrying a value in the employees.
• 2:56
  And you know, more often than not, the the leaders that can explain the rationale for why
• 3:03
  there is this, these certain rules, these certain policies, and they can speak to it and
• 3:08
  say it's important.
• 3:10
  You know, for example, there there's a couple of pieces of legislation we do one of of which
• 3:17
  is, the AODA accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act.
• 3:21
  I can tell you on the employee side, not always a a popular training to provide.
• 3:27
  And, again, I've I have experienced leaders, let's say, This is, this is important, because,
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  you know, this represents customers to us, and we wanna make sure that these customers are
• 3:43
  getting the same level of service as anybody else.
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  And, when you can explain it like that, you get you you can get better buy in from your
• 3:53
  employees as to why this is important.
• 3:56
  So I would say that Like, someone that's, a leader is not just, knowing, the mission of the
• 4:05
  vision, but they're living that accordingly.
• 4:08
  So, like, if you look at the legislation in reference to accessibility, you know, and I've
• 4:12
  been in those, you know, those trainings when I was up the hospital and it's like, oh, geez.
• 4:17
  And it's needed.
• 4:18
  It's needed.
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  It's like the wimis, right, that we all have to do.
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  It's like, oh, no.
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  Here it comes again.
• 4:23
  Yeah.
• 4:23
  But the thing is, with the authentic leaders that I've been you know, been privileged to
• 4:28
  spend time with over the the tenure of my career or even in in interviewing lately, for
• 4:34
  this new book of mine, is that These are individuals, and I've heard this said, and I I
• 4:39
  don't know if you would agree with the statements that they are the same person
• 4:45
  Regardless of the environment that they're in?
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  I would agree with that to, to a large degree.
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  I I think how they carry themselves in the workplace, vis a vis their their code of
• 4:57
  conduct, their morals, their ethics, is the same way they handle themselves outside of the
• 5:05
  workplace.
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  Mhmm.
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  Maybe just a different set of rules and regulations.
• 5:09
  So, it's it's a cliche to say, but I think it's it's, it's true.
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  They continually consistently talk the talk and walk the walk And, you know, it doesn't matter
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  what environment they're in.
• 5:24
  They, they they just continue to to practice it.
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  And that builds their credibility as well.
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  You know, if we know that a person outside of work is practicing us you know, while there may
• 5:38
  be some debate about what what does that matter.
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  I think it does matter.
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  And, you know, and, you know, so it it makes for a a very trusting leader.
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  It makes for someone that you can respect And, you know, that you're gonna get the same type
• 5:56
  of authentic leadership, in most cases.
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  I I I think back to a, a quote from one of my dear professors at Niagara College when I was
• 6:08
  in at, what I lovingly referred to as HR Boot Camp.
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  And, she stated that walk around like you've got kids looking over your shoulder all the
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  time.
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  And that has stuck with me.
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  And, I've actually mentioned that to a couple of leaders that I've worked with in there and
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  and ones that I really spectrum.
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  They they say that that is exactly how I feel.
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  So keeps it on your toes then.
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  Right?
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  Ultimately.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  How would your kid feel?
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  How would your child feel if you were acting in a way that was not keeping with authentic
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  leadership?
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  Or being an authentic person for that matter as well.
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  So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you something that may be a bit controversial, but I think it it
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  needs to be addressed And I know when I was, in health and wellness, that certain sectors had
• 7:00
  certain types of pressures and in turn, the leadership, kind of aligns with the different
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  sectors.
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  Can we talk a little bit about that?
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  Sure.
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  Absolutely.
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  I I think it's a little bit what I'm about to say may be a little bit controversial, but it
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  is certainly not done with disrespect I think in, some of the public sectors leadership is
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  still a work in progress.
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  And some of that comes from a place of, you know, just just not having those qualities.
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  I also think that, you know, when you get into public service, you're more bound by rules and
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  regulations than what you would be probably in in the private sect So it it's kinda structured
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  into a box.
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  And I think, you know, using the current environment, we're in with COVID 19, I've seen
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  a lot of people struggling.
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  I've seen a lot of people, it's almost like decision paralysis, and they don't wanna make
• 8:01
  the wrong move for fear that it's the wrong move.
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  And to a degree, I mean, we none of us wanna make the wrong moves, but we're living in an
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  environment, which none of us have had experience with.
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  So just, you know, what what I keep talking about with some of these leaders is, having
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  contingency plans.
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  We see we we take a look at it.
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  We see if it works And if it doesn't or if things change, then we have adjust.
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  You have to be, I think, agility, malleability, and that word resilience.
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  Are true qualities in a leader, and that doesn't matter whether it's private or public
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  sector, but that may be something that we're not giving our leaders in the in the public
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  sector.
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  And that's not to paint broad strokes.
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  I've seen some exceptional leadership in the public sector, but I would say from my
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  perspective, more so than private, there's there there's some real struggles right now.
• 9:00
  Sounds.
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  So in a way, some of the setup of what's existed historically kind of, maybe some of the
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  leaders that end up in that sector think that that's the way they need to behave.
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  So so they may not evolve or sometimes in private sector, you have a bit more latitude to
• 9:15
  be able to not sit within a particular structure.
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  So people kind of, you know, maybe take a bit of liberties to lead in a different way.
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  Leaders need to be proactive.
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  They need to be knowing what's coming around the bend.
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  Or, coming around the corner, I should say, and be able to deal with that.
• 9:37
  That's So, it's and again, you know, for some leaders in the public service, they're in a
• 9:44
  very public realm and, that's a pressure that some private does not have.
• 9:51
  So they may have whereas, leadership in a private may have 1 or 2 So called masters, I'll
• 9:59
  I'll use that term to report to.
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  In the public sector, you've got many different masters.
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  And many different stakeholders that you have to to, refer, report to and provide different
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  results to.
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  So that can be that can be a juggling act.
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  And sometimes, again, it's can be extremely challenging for some people in that realm.
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  You know, and again, you're going back to our current environment with COVID.
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  You've got, your employees that are right now, really sometimes un are scared with
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  uncertainty.
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  You've got, other managers that are looking for your direction as well.
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  You've got your your funders that are trying to make sure that you're doing what you're
• 10:46
  supposed to.
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  You've got your board of directors which is also involved as well.
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  Some do it really well.
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  And some, as I've said, are struggling, and I I think the common denominator I'm seeing with
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  those that are struggling is that, as I've said, they were so bound by structure that,
• 11:06
  this is all all new to them.
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  So, really, I mean, speaking to, we also have high expectations of people in leadership
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  positions without a doubt.
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  But in this time, it's almost like, the pressure is on And it's becoming exponential
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  going upwards from the front line all the way up to the C Suites.
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  So peep everybody's kinda, you know, reverberating.
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  I'm gonna use that word some degree.
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  Mhmm.
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  And we're looking toward leaders even more so for leadership.
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  So that leader has to really, be in touch with his or her space, and really understand
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  themselves and understand what they're like under pressure to be able to to recognize that,
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  you know, this is first, you know, we've been into this 2 months or so.
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  How have I coped?
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  You know, what what is my go to?
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  What am I like when I'm well rested?
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  And what is my story?
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  What is my backstory?
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  Like, as a leader, what am I telling myself?
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  And what do I need to kind of take care of so that I can have a different even if I'm
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  thinking, well, you know, you know, this is really, really horrendous, I still have to step
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  out of myself, deal with what I need to replenish myself, come back and be able to lead
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  daily or an hour by hour.
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  Yeah.
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  I would say in in the COVID times, the the good leaders have risen to the occasion, and the
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  mediocre leaders have remained mediocre or perhaps even aggressed and done poorly.
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  I also see a common denominator with the, the leaders that have risen to the occasion is they
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  are getting, the information that they need.
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  They are utilizing multiple sources.
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  They're not making decisions without having all of the information.
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  Early on in this crisis, I can tell you from a a couple of, of, like, of things that I know
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  with some some leaders is, they weren't taking this seriously, and, they weren't being that
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  those proactive people to find out, well, okay.
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  It doesn't seem to be impacting us now, but can it And it's those types of leaders that were
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  better prepared when this really blew up in the in the middle of March.
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  Which seems like a lifetime ago.
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  So so that that element of agility, right?
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  I mean, it sounds like or malleability or whatever you wanna that whole concept of, how
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  am I going to adjust on an ongoing basis because my trajectory is shifting hour by hour,
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  day by day.
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  And
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  so what you're saying is that good leaders are the type that says okay, then.
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  I'm gonna be open to new information, and I'm gonna shift accordingly to be able to leave it
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  lead us effectively regardless of what's coming my way.
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  Absolutely.
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  That's exactly what I'm saying because, Roxanne, this is with us, from all accounts.
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  We're gonna be dealing with this in some way, shape, or form for up to 2 years.
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  So we could you you you're gonna have to shift gears quickly you know, we're we're on a good
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  trajectory right now.
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  We're reopening business here in Ontario, which is great, but this can change on a dime.
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  So what what do you have in place?
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  And we've had two and a half months now or almost two and a half months to get some things
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  in place so that as we're going along on this journey, okay.
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  We're open.
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  We're we're getting back to normal or as close to normal as we're ever gonna be.
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  Boom.
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  We've got wave number 2 coming in.
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  What are are we prepared to go back into lockdown and still provide the same types of
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  services that we have been doing, although probably in a different way.
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  So, you know, at this point in the game Roxanne, I would say, most leaders should have
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  this all planned out right now.
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  And again, again, the it's a lot of information.
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  We're all on information overload.
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  But that's where you also get your other a good leader will get other people involved.
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  They don't have to take this all on their own.
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  We know that.
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  And, but some p and again, some some leaders, whether it's through a sense of I've got to do
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  this all on my own, or whatever other reason, they can, they can give other people some
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  autonomy to, take this and run with it, come up with things, and it's all about collaboration
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  and working together.
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  And, you know, the one of the the pivotal elements to authentic leadership is relational
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  transparency, which is just what, like, it sounds.
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  It's about, you know, Guess what?
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  I'm your leader, but I'm also a person.
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  I also have family members I'm worried about.
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  I have people that are compromised.
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  I'm worried about the same kind of things you are.
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  And, you know, sharing a bit about what you might be experiencing as the leader versus
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  looking so put together or maybe you're so stressed that people know you're stressed, but
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  you're hiding it.
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  And then people are trying to kind of calibrate between what they're experiencing, which is
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  like share, you know, terror at times to a leader that seems disconnected and not able to
• 16:25
  share a bit about him or herself to to to create that common ground.
• 16:29
  Communication has been so key in all of this, whether you be a private entity or a public
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  entity.
• 16:35
  And, I think people do have to, as you've said, just to dovetail on what you were saying,
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  people do have to get personal.
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  There have been employees cry at work.
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  There have been, you know, those types of breakdowns and again, as as we know, and and
• 16:52
  you and I have discussed, the mental health pieces that are now that are now present And,
• 17:00
  we don't know which way that's gonna go.
• 17:02
  I project that it's probably gonna get a lot more challenging and difficult for people
• 17:08
  that's gotta be a key thing that leaders are looking at right now and getting those
• 17:12
  resources into support people and also be self aware themselves that, hey.
• 17:18
  This is impacting me as well.
• 17:21
  You know, leader leaders deal with this all day.
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  And then when they have their downtime, what are they doing for their own self care?
• 17:28
  And, you know, again, the the, some of the good leaders, but this is, I would say, a flaw in
• 17:35
  their character they're sitting down and they're actually getting self critical.
• 17:38
  And, I get that the point that they want to do a good job, but, you know, you're you can only
• 17:45
  do so much.
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  The other thing with leadership in these times is that, you know, while some things have been
• 17:53
  put on hold and we're showing flexibility in terms of expectations, there's still some
• 17:59
  things that still need to be done and you still have a large degree of, of of a need to hold
• 18:07
  employees accountable and responsible for what the job that they're doing.
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  And, maybe you have to adjust it to account for COVID, maybe working remotely from home, maybe
• 18:18
  working with less employees, but it can still be done.
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  I don't the the good leaders will not provide free passes during this as well.
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  If there are performance issues and they're legitimate, they get addressed just as it would
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  be in, so called pre COVID times.
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  And that's a sign of a good leader as well.
• 18:37
  It may not be popular, but it's legitimate and it's rational, and it makes sense.
• 18:44
  Well, and and and also, you know, when you have to make these difficult decisions, Neil, You're
• 18:51
  you're the authentic leaders are making it in the best interest of everyone.
• 18:56
  And oftentimes, they're making the tough tough decisions, that's not gonna make them popular,
• 19:03
  but it it authentic leadership is not about popularity and fitting in.
• 19:07
  It's about saying what's in the best of each and every subset of my company and the board
• 19:13
  and everybody involved.
• 19:15
  And sometimes inauthentic leaders, in the in the research and from others I've experienced
• 19:21
  or, talked to is that the people that get lost along the way are actually the ones that wanna
• 19:27
  be liked.
• 19:28
  Yes.
• 19:28
  And I would concur with that wholeheartedly.
• 19:31
  I would also add to that that, there I have encountered, leaders that, they don't wanna
• 19:38
  deal with.
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  They they they shy away from conflict.
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  Anybody can manage in good times.
• 19:43
  Anybody can manage when you've got Roxanne star employees and, everybody everybody's
• 19:48
  contributing beyond expectations.
• 19:51
  It's those leaders that when there are challenges, they're addressing that head on.
• 19:58
  And there I have had, experiences where, some of these leaders for instance, in, you know,
• 20:05
  addressing, poor employees, poor poor performing employees, They just won't address
• 20:12
  it.
• 20:12
  And although, you know, other employees around them, They may be verbal about it, but if
• 20:18
  they're not verbal about it, they're they're remaining silent, from my perspective because
• 20:25
  they're waiting for that leader to address it.
• 20:27
  And when they don't see any action, they're gonna feel put out by that.
• 20:33
  And, you know, their morale is going to take a hit, and they're and they're gonna feel perhaps
• 20:40
  that that leader doesn't care or, you know, if they're too if they're too, quote, chicken to
• 20:47
  deal with this employee, you know, anybody can get away with anything, and that's not a good
• 20:53
  situation either.
• 20:54
  It's the flip side of the micro manager or the manager that is, really, in, quote, unquote a
• 21:04
  hard ass.
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  And really writing people.
• 21:06
  So it's a balance.
• 21:08
  Right?
• 21:08
  It's all a balancing act.
• 21:10
  But I think I think you're speaking to something very, very Courtton, Neil, because we
• 21:13
  what we talk about, it's like, if you know there's an issue on your team.
• 21:19
  Mhmm.
• 21:20
  And the team is watching you to see how you deal with it if there's, an ongoing so it's the
• 21:26
  corrosiveness.
• 21:29
  Of you not managing that impacts all the really, really hard work that you may be using
• 21:34
  to develop trust.
• 21:36
  Exactly.
• 21:37
  Your integrity your integrity takes a huge hit when it is perceived that you're, you're not
• 21:45
  addressing things And, you know, sometimes, you know, it's all about, you know, there's some
• 21:52
  confidentiality with some of these pieces with poor performing employees.
• 21:56
  And, as best you can, if you are dealing with it, you have in some way, shape, or form need
• 22:01
  to let them know it's being addressed.
• 22:03
  But it may take some time.
• 22:05
  That's certainly a message that I've had to deliver over over in my time, as an HR
• 22:10
  professional, Sometimes, yes, I would like things to to to speed up and and be done more
• 22:17
  much more quicker as well, but I have to follow process in some cases.
• 22:22
  There is no two ways about it.
• 22:24
  But again, those leaders are are they're, again, they are just not seen with the same
• 22:31
  integrity as someone who, you know, they nip it.
• 22:34
  The the really proactive leaders from my experience they nip things right in the butt as
• 22:39
  soon as they get a whiff of what's going on.
• 22:43
  Right.
• 22:43
  And, they're doing it in a legitimate way.
• 22:46
  Like I said, not let's not micromanaging.
• 22:48
  They they know that if it, balloons, it's gonna have an even more severe impact on their team,
• 22:55
  the operations of their organization.
• 22:59
  And I know, I I also find that, some of the more exceptional leaders I've worked with,
• 23:08
  they've been able to instill a sense of self policing among their employees.
• 23:13
  So if it gets to their table, then something really bad has happened, for it to do that
• 23:18
  because the self policing employees you can't get a much more, better, situation than that
• 23:26
  where peers are are calling out each other when it needs to happen.
• 23:30
  Because I think the level of trust is that, on teams, it would be that, you know, we have a
• 23:36
  responsibility to manage ourselves, and then they kind of keep each other accountable.
• 23:42
  So I could see how that kind like to your point, if it if it accelerates that far up, it
• 23:46
  means that there's a lot potentially of dissension that's happening that allows things
• 23:50
  to get as high up as to the leader.
• 23:52
  Mhmm.
• 23:53
  And most most self functioning teams will say I individually take responsibility for my action,
• 23:58
  but I'm gonna kind of work with you as part of my team, and we're gonna figure it out because,
• 24:03
  you know, we're proud of what we do.
• 24:05
  We can we're capable.
• 24:06
  We have differences, but teams have differences all the time.
• 24:09
  Yeah.
• 24:09
  But they but they work together.
• 24:11
  And I think, you know, the leaders in those organizations have instilled such a positive
• 24:16
  employee experience, such a positive engagement.
• 24:21
  That sense of autonomy is, hey.
• 24:23
  You know, you're adults here.
• 24:26
  We're not teachers or principals in a school yard trying to, negotiate school yard fights.
• 24:33
  We we believe that you have the wherewithal to do this on your own.
• 24:38
  There may be a point that it comes to us, but, we really feel that it should be few and and
• 24:43
  far between.
• 24:44
  Mhmm.
• 24:44
  So but it's also instilling in those employees that if they really feel it and that goes to
• 24:49
  that, has to come to that, C suite level, managerial level, that there's no, there's no,
• 24:57
  it's not gonna be frowned upon that that was a bad thing that that happened.
• 25:02
  Let's just talk a little bit about.
• 25:04
  She said, like, through this time, the good leaders have shunned, and the the leaders that
• 25:10
  struggled, have either state or maybe even decompensated in their, leadership.
• 25:16
  What have you kind of seen out there?
• 25:19
  Well, in terms of the leaders that have risen to the occasion, use that term above and
• 25:25
  beyond.
• 25:25
  And it also goes to that point I was saying earlier about they may be burning themselves
• 25:30
  out because they're so concerned about their employees.
• 25:33
  They're so concerned that, you know, about keeping their employees physically and
• 25:40
  psychologically well.
• 25:41
  So they're the ones that are having constant communication They're the ones that are
• 25:46
  providing the updates.
• 25:47
  They're the ones that are saying, I don't know the answer to this, but I'm gonna do my damages
• 25:51
  to find out for you and coming back in a reasonable time frame.
• 25:57
  The media, the not so good leaders, you know, from my perspective, they're not communicating.
• 26:04
  They're late in communication.
• 26:07
  They're the again, they're just they just seem paralyzed because they they don't know what to
• 26:12
  do.
• 26:12
  I think it comes to a point of where they set up to be in those positions in the first place.
• 26:19
  For for many of them, from what I've seen, they, have, you know, they have had it They
• 26:27
  haven't had to deal with anything in terms of, even if this is an unprecedented event, any
• 26:33
  kind of upheaval in their in their workplace, and this to have to deal with this as their
• 26:38
  first upheaval.
• 26:40
  That's gotta that's a tall order.
• 26:41
  And, I think we're going to see and I'm sure some of your other guests have said this since,
• 26:48
  all this hit since they've been on your show, we're gonna see a pretty I would say radical
• 26:54
  realignment of what we see as good leadership from this.
• 26:58
  What do you think what would be some of the elements that you think we'd see?
• 27:02
  What what do you, you know, like Yeah.
• 27:04
  To your point, right?
• 27:05
  Like, some people are kind of pulled up into positions because they they they performed and
• 27:10
  maybe they haven't so they they may be technical in their ability and capacity, and
• 27:15
  then they get into management positions.
• 27:17
  So I often say those are leaders that you really have to work at to accentuate or adapt
• 27:22
  their skills accordingly.
• 27:23
  My belief is, and I don't know what you think about this, is that, yes, you can have certain
• 27:27
  capacities, but you have to continue to grow as a leader.
• 27:31
  I agree with you.
• 27:32
  It and I go back to an just to borrow an example from my experiences, It's it's, from a
• 27:38
  manufacturing background, a good leader that was promoted, or, sorry, a good welder that
• 27:45
  promoted to a supervisory position was not a was not good in that supervisory position.
• 27:51
  We didn't have the requisite And I I really don't like this term soft skills because I
• 27:56
  think that those skills are bigger requirements than the so called hard skills to be a leader.
• 28:03
  Some of which are innate, some of which are can be taught, I I'm of the I'm of the opinion that
• 28:12
  most more more of them are innate than than can be taught.
• 28:16
  It's it's just within you.
• 28:20
  And I'm sorry.
• 28:21
  I've lost track of the question in my
• 28:24
  No.
• 28:24
  But but I but to your point about sometimes people are put into positions and because of a
• 28:31
  certain aptitude and then the assumption is that their management because they performed
• 28:35
  that they're, and we'll put them in a management, you know, position that that
• 28:39
  they're gonna, develop those skills.
• 28:42
  But my my perspective is, yes, you have to have a certain amount of capacity, but the ongoing,
• 28:48
  training and development of that manager has to be something that's ongoing.
• 28:53
  That manager has to understand his leadership story.
• 28:57
  Why am I doing?
• 28:57
  What am I doing?
• 28:58
  What values am I bringing to leadership?
• 29:00
  How self aware am I?
• 29:03
  You know, what kind of personalities trigger me?
• 29:06
  All those things are things that you have to continue to learn because You're going out
• 29:10
  there and you're leading day in, day out.
• 29:12
  And if you don't have the skills and, you know, you're doing it poorly, you're doing more harm
• 29:17
  than you are, in fact, doing good.
• 29:19
  Yeah.
• 29:19
  And, that is, a very important piece.
• 29:22
  We leaders constantly talk about as they should about continuous improvement of employees.
• 29:29
  That counts for them as well.
• 29:32
  You
• 29:32
  know, so doing doing some coaching sessions, taking some leadership courses, and saying,
• 29:38
  okay.
• 29:39
  I'm done.
• 29:40
  I I'm good here.
• 29:41
  No.
• 29:42
  As you I completely agree with you, Roxanne, this is an ongoing thing because, again, you
• 29:48
  know, things are gonna be changing, and you were asking me about what do I see as some of
• 29:53
  the changes, that are gonna happen and I'm gonna reinforce that.
• 29:58
  Now the agility, the agility, malleability, and resilience pieces are going to be stronger
• 30:05
  pieces that are required.
• 30:07
  Because if, you know, again, if things are gonna go, as they say, COVID may not be the 1st
• 30:15
  type of, pandemic that we deal with in the future, or the only pandemic we deal with in
• 30:21
  the future as well.
• 30:23
  And again, we've had so many, what I call dry runs of this, 911 SARs H1N1, the great
• 30:35
  blackout, the great recession of 2008, 2009, You know, so there is there is a a school of
• 30:43
  thought out there was perhaps this was predictable and why didn't we why didn't we
• 30:49
  prepare for it better?
• 30:51
  And, I think with this now, that message is going to be even stronger and we're gonna be
• 30:57
  looking for those types of things in leaders because, again, if people think that and maybe
• 31:03
  it's not another pandemic that we deal with in the future.
• 31:06
  It could be something else.
• 31:08
  So, again, I think those qualities are gonna be assessed a lot better in the recruitment phase
• 31:15
  assessed a lot better in the selection phase and part of performance evaluation on an
• 31:20
  ongoing basis for leaders and other people in the organization as well.
• 31:27
  It's almost like a simulated element that would have to be instituted as part and development,
• 31:32
  for instance.
• 31:33
  Couldn't be more.
• 31:34
  Yeah.
• 31:35
  So that it and I mean, you know, knock on wood here that it's not gonna be another pandemic,
• 31:40
  but Obviously, it showed us that the ability to be adaptive and change
• 31:45
  Yes.
• 31:46
  Is something that's gonna be a given in in in not only front line, middle managers, or
• 31:51
  leadership, that's something now that I think all companies are gonna be looking at to say,
• 31:56
  what did we do poorly?
• 31:58
  What could we pivot kind of relatively okay, and what did what what should we never ever do
• 32:04
  again?
• 32:05
  And, coming up with the, you know, the new generation, how are we now going to, like you
• 32:11
  said, attract them, retain them, and make sure they have the right skills.
• 32:15
  Yeah.
• 32:15
  And, I mean, again, it's a it's a cliche.
• 32:18
  And, when all this is over, I'm gonna write my book, covid cliches.
• 32:23
  But how employers are treating their employees right now, how leadership is performing is
• 32:29
  going to be very telling when this subsides whenever that is and whether employees choose
• 32:36
  to stay with them, that organization.
• 32:40
  I don't think a lot of employees are gonna look to move right because it's just too unstable
• 32:44
  and, you know, the opportunities are not out there.
• 32:47
  But when things, recover, and we will recover.
• 32:51
  They may say, this wasn't for me, but more to your point about, doing that.
• 32:56
  So those self reflection pieces, this is also another time where you could possibly you ask
• 33:02
  your employees.
• 33:04
  So how did we do?
• 33:05
  Mhmm.
• 33:05
  And I think that they need some honesty They need some bluntness.
• 33:10
  And, and more importantly, when you get the you get those answers that are not all positive
• 33:18
  about how it was handled, you need to address it and deal with it.
• 33:22
  To just ignore it after that is not going to build any more trust, respect, and integrity.
• 33:28
  So be prepared.
• 33:30
  And it shows your willingness to say, okay.
• 33:32
  We didn't do the best we could.
• 33:34
  But we're gonna take this as a learning experience.
• 33:36
  And those 2 core principles about trust and integrity, As we look forward and I like your
• 33:43
  you I've heard you say 2 years, and I've heard 18 months to 2 years where we're gonna be we're
• 33:47
  gonna be in this gap potentially that can imagine what leadership needs what needs to
• 33:53
  happen in that time.
• 33:54
  Mhmm.
• 33:55
  As we kind of an easy job.
• 33:57
  No.
• 33:57
  Because we're gonna be potentially flat trying to recover ups and downs.
• 34:02
  You
• 34:02
  know, people are gonna still be in fear because they're gonna be concerned about, safety and
• 34:06
  within their jobs, all those things.
• 34:08
  Mhmm.
• 34:09
  And they're gonna be looking even more so for leadership Mhmm.
• 34:13
  And to get that sense that it's gonna be okay.
• 34:15
  Yeah.
• 34:16
  It was a tough environment pre COVID to find, seasoned leadership anybody who's in executive
• 34:25
  recruitment will tell you that.
• 34:28
  And I think it's gonna be even tougher to do if you have to, look for somebody during COVID as
• 34:36
  we're on this journey.
• 34:39
  And then, you know, more to that is how many people are one of gonna be leaders in this
• 34:43
  time?
• 34:44
  So that brings up the question of what are organizations going to do to support their
• 34:49
  leadership?
• 34:50
  Yes.
• 34:50
  You've got expectations.
• 34:52
  I've done.
• 34:52
  Yes.
• 34:53
  They've got accountability and responsibility.
• 34:55
  But what, you know, they're taking on a lot.
• 34:58
  So how are you going to support them?
• 35:00
  What teams are you going to build around them so that it is a a shared, a shared journey.
• 35:09
  Absolutely.
• 35:10
  Well, Neil, this is, it's always my pleasure, and I I hope you'll come back.
• 35:14
  I'm, in the process of of writing my book, so I'm gonna include, some of what Neil has shared
• 35:21
  today in that.
• 35:22
  So probably we'll have asked him to come back on, and he's been so gracious already with his
• 35:27
  time to be able to kind of talk about how we've been doing or continue to do, post COVID time.
• 35:34
  So for everyone listening, if you're Neil's information will be put in the show notes
• 35:40
  again.
• 35:41
  And, Theo, you also have a webinar coming up.
• 35:44
  I I heard if you wanna tell everyone a little bit about it if they might want to get on, to
• 35:49
  get some more information, that would be great.
• 35:51
  Thank you, Roxanne.
• 35:52
  I appreciate that.
• 35:53
  So on, May 31st, which is next Thursday.
• 35:59
  It is the 4th webinar we've had in, in our series.
• 36:02
  And this one is a is actually on, supporting employee mental health and wellness during
• 36:08
  COVID.
• 36:10
  Very critical time.
• 36:11
  We still have a section of the workforce in the remote.
• 36:13
  We're working remotely.
• 36:15
  We've got some coming back to work, and there's fears there.
• 36:19
  This has been a traumatizing experience for some.
• 36:22
  So, you can register at our website.
• 36:25
  Registration is open now.
• 36:27
  Www.hrprim.ca.
• 36:30
  And I know Roxanne has graciously provided that website in the in the notes, and I I thank you
• 36:36
  the bottom of my heart for that.
• 36:37
  And it's always a pleasure to be on your show and, speak with you and, learn from you as
• 36:44
  well.
• 36:44
  So
• 36:45
  Well, thank you so much.
• 36:47
  So for everyone everyone listening, especially the leaders, recognize that, you need to take
• 36:55
  care of yourself through, your space, your awareness, your capacity, your understanding of
• 37:01
  yourself, allows you the space to be able to take care of you and then in turn, be open on
• 37:08
  an ongoing basis, which is not an easy job, period being a leader, but especially through
• 37:13
  this time to lead.
• 37:15
  So be open, to, be as agile as possible and, gain the skills that you need and get the right
• 37:23
  supports that you're needing so that you can be the best leader possible.
• 37:26
  So my name is Roxanne Derhodge.
• 37:28
  And if you're needing anything, I'm a mental health and wellness specialist, and I talk, or
• 37:35
  discuss issues around authentic leadership.
• 37:37
  You can reach me at Roxanne.
• 37:41
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 37:45
  Create the space for positive, healthy change.
• 37:48
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 37:54
  roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 37:58
  We'll see you next time.
• 38:00
  An authentic living with Roxanne.