Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 165 - Karen Lewis - CPO of Cardurion Pharmaceuticals

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Episode 165 - Karen Lewis - CPO of Cardurion Pharmaceuticals · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:05
Welcome to another episode of The Buyer Hub podcast.
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Today we are joined by Karen Lewis, Chief people of the
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Kadurian Pharmaceuticals. Karen has navigated her way
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through talent acquisition to a HR business partner in both
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public and private companies. Today we explore her journey to
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where she is today. Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for having me. I'm really.
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Excited to talk to you about obviously your journey that you
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worked through. You worked through similar to
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myself from recruitment all the way through to where you are
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today. But obviously let's start with
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your journey. You you've been in biotech for,
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for quite a while now in, in the industry.
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What what actually drew you into this industry and what were key
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turning points that have shaped your career since then?
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Well, I think many people probably would acknowledge that
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working in an industry where you can have a meaningful impact on
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healthcare and the well-being of people is really meaningful.
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And so for me, that was definitely a big draw to the
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industry. And as I've stayed within it,
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getting exposure to the patient stories and hearing from the
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physicians who treat patients really helps to confirm the
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impact you can have in this industry and bringing new
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medicines to patients. And like many people, I too have
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family and friends who have suffered from a number of
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different types of diseases, and knowing in some way my
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contribution is helping to support their well-being is
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truly meaningful. Absolutely.
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I think that's such an important point to mention because there
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are so many people maybe outside of the industry that think that
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you might not have a direct impact on what is going on.
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But every single person within a biotech company and a
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pharmaceutical company does directly impact the end patient.
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And I mean, even as a recruiter, and I'm sure you're aware,
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obviously, you know, we put the right people in the right
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places. And so it's making sure that
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that that's one of the reasons that I'm so I absolutely love,
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love that point for you. And looking back across those
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turning points, what were the moments where you felt, you
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know, you were a real crossroads, where the next step
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required a genuine sacrifice or a bit of a leap of faith, would
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you say? There have been several.
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So unlike a lot of others in HR and recruiting, my career
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actually began at the bench. I was a scientist in a small
2:33
biotech company and I decided that it really wasn't the right
2:37
long term fit for me. And I took a leap of faith and I
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entered into the world of recruiting for the biotech
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industry. And to be honest, I quickly
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found my calling and knew it was home.
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And then from there when I was getting ready after many years
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and tell an acquisition to consider moving into other parts
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of HR, that was again pushing me a little out of my comfort zone,
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what was familiar to me. And I had to have a leap of
3:06
faith there that I would be successful in that transition to
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my first HR business partner role.
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You know, I would even say after more than 10 years in R&D at
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Bristol-Myers Squibb, again, another stepping stone for me
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was pivoting to the commercial side, which felt very different
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at the time. And that right, that was a bit
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of a risk for me and was I going to be successful in the work I
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was doing there. But when I think truly about the
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most significant ones, I took a career pivot.
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I left the biotech and Pharmaceutical industry and was
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lured to the tech space. And I uprooted my family, moved
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out West and joined Amazon. And that one was a, that
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required major sacrifices because I was leaving the entire
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community and support system I had on the East Coast and the
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industry that I was familiar with and taking a leap of faith
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that I could be successful in another industry.
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Eventually I found myself coming back obviously to biotech and
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had the wonderful opportunity of joining Biogen and moved back to
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the East Coast. And when I was getting ready to
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leave Biogen, A midsize biotech company, I was pivoting again
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and I joined the startup and it was a real startup.
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It was in the research stage and it was a much smaller company.
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And that was really a significant change for me going
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back to being incredibly hands on after many, many years
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working in large established companies.
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And from there, right, I've had the opportunity to grow and and
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move back to slightly larger biotech, but still something I
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would consider small by comparison to some of the big
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companies I've worked in. Absolutely.
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And you know, working in the different size companies, how
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have you found, you know from a TAHR business leader point of
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view, are they quite different? There's definitely aspects that
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are incredibly different. Some of them begin with just the
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sheer level of resourcing and technology that you would have
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in large companies. There's an opportunity to really
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invest in state-of-the-art equipment and build really
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robust capabilities in HR, right?
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Having the investment in the technology helps, but then also
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the resources within the talent on acquisition function where
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you can really build out capabilities and in all facets
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from sourcing to candidate experience to even the strategic
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side of things where you can do proactive pipelining for future
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succession. In smaller companies, you just
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don't have access to the same level of resourcing and you
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really have to be able to move between doing some of that
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strategic work and highly operational work that you often
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take for granted. And larger companies that you
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have different pockets of the organization who can focus and
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go deep in certain areas, if that makes sense.
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And on the HR business partner side, as someone who's gone into
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two companies from larger mature companies to small and having to
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build from scratch everything from talent management
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processes, performance systems to total reward systems, to even
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invest in their first technology of a human Capital Management
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system or a recruiting tool. It's, you know, it can be a
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really big difference than coming from really mature
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process and you know, top notch technology that you see in
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bigger companies. Yeah, absolutely.
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And you've obviously worked across both public and private
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companies as well. How has that transitioned shift
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your mindset as a leader, particularly around the
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different pace, scrutiny, and maybe even decision making?
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Yeah, they, they are really different.
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They they definitely are. In a public company, to no
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surprise, you really have a responsibility to report and
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disclose information at a faster pace, that pace than you do in a
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private company. And that has changed the culture
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of the organization quite significantly.
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Meaning in a smaller private company, you can be a little bit
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more open with confidential information more broadly within
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the company. And one of the things that
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people really enjoy in a small company is that level of
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transparency and understanding what's going on.
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All of you know, from soup to nuts across the company.
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But in a bigger company or in a public company, you it's really
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not something that you can do. You have to ensure that there
8:23
are certain discretion around sensitive information and that
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it's disclosed through the proper channels.
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I will say when it comes to decision making between big
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companies and small companies or public companies and private
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companies, I I've noticed a lot of differences there.
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And so not surprising in public companies, right, Things have to
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be properly scrutinized and reviewed before it's disclosed
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in, in what I would say publicly held companies.
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Obviously boards are involved in decision making, but the degree
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of involvement is different than it would be in a private company
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where normally investors compose the boards that are in private
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companies. And in some cases you do see a
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mix between investors and what I, what I kind of call operators
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or people who've been on the other side of the table in the
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company. And there there's, you know,
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there's a, the significant stake at risk for investors.
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They do need to make sure that decisions are appropriately
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scrutinized. But what I have found is the
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pace and speed of taking those decisions in smaller companies
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that are private vastly right is different than in public
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companies where you have to be more thoughtful about the
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decisions because you're disclosing things more rapidly.
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And it's harder to evolve right, and make changes to the
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decisions that you've taken once you've disclose them externally.
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So building on what you've just said there, what do you think
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people most misunderstand about working in a big pharma company
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versus smaller biotech environments, especially from a
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people and culture perspective? Yeah.
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So in in bigger companies, they have access to a lot more
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resources. So there is more access to
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development in a bigger company. I would say that whether it's
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through just, you know, traditional training that may
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exist within that setting, but also just the sort of
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diverseness of opportunities. There are several more internal
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roles that people can play where they can do internal moves into
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different roles and gain a variety of different
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experiences. In a smaller company, you tend
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to have a broader breadth of exposure rather than deep, and
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you tend to wear multiple hats, right?
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So, so it's not uncommon from one person to join in a function
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and while they're there, they pick up and absorb other things,
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which often doesn't happen in bigger established, you know,
11:17
pharmaceutical companies. So I would say people
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development is a really big difference.
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Culturally, there's a lot of differences as well, right?
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You tend to be in a bigger company, have exposure to what's
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going on within your department or your function.
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And you, you tend to, while you may know at a high level what's
11:41
going on across the company, you don't necessarily feel like you
11:45
can touch it in the same way you could in a smaller company where
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you really, it's, you really do know what's going on across
11:54
every facet of the business. And the other really big thing
11:59
is sometimes in big companies, you can feel lost in a, as a
12:02
small fish in a big pond. And then no surprise, in a
12:05
smaller company, it can feel a little bit more intimate and
12:10
family oriented. You can literally sit around the
12:14
table sometimes with almost everybody in in the company.
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And it's a it's a little less formal, right?
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It's less still professional, but it's it's more family
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oriented and you really feel a sense of community and
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connection with colleagues that you don't often feel in a really
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large organization. One of the.
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Last things I'll say before before I turn it back to you is
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sometimes in bigger companies, right, We all know things move
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slower and decision making is slower.
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The ability to get alignment cross functioning cross
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functionally is slower, the pace of change is slower, and the
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ability to implement decisions can be slower.
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In a small company, it's incredibly fast moving and
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agile. You can get your stakeholders
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together really quickly. Take a decision, experiment as
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you go, and what I personally appreciated about that is you
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can implement things and be able to really see the impact of
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those decisions versus in a large company, sometimes by the
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time you implement things, the world around you is already
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changed and it's time to start thinking about how to evolve.
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Yeah, no, absolutely. You know that that kind of
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covers across the whole business, not not even just
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people strategy, but everywhere in the business.
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When it does take such a long time to make those decisions
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because there's so many channels that you've got to go through,
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it can sometimes hinder a process or cause delays.
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Whereas in those small dynamic companies, it can move really
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quickly and you know, they're ready and raring to go.
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But obviously with smaller companies and even bigger ones,
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but companies obviously move through different growth phases.
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So as smaller companies start to scale and get bigger, how do you
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think culture can typically evolve with that?
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In your experience? Do you think it would naturally
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strengthen with scale or does it require kind of constant
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correction as the company grows? Yeah.
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I, I would say it's, it's highly situational to no surprise.
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When you're increasing the number of employees and leaders
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in an organization, it's really hard to hold on to the culture
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that existed unless you really are very intentional around
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integrating people into the culture and finding ways to
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still cultivate it. Right through, through the way
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you communicate, the way you take decisions, the way you
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operate in a company. And as you on board and bring in
14:54
different leaders, they have different perspectives.
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So the the culture is likely going to iterate and change.
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And that's natural, right? As that's very natural.
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As companies grow and scale, I would say there are definitely
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certain inflection points with companies where the culture has
15:13
to change when you're moving into the clinic, right?
15:16
There's different requirements in terms of patient safety and
15:19
upholding regulations that become a very central focus of a
15:24
company. And they have to ensure the
15:26
right rigors in place and in order to protect the patient's
15:30
interest and to ensure the integrity of the trials they're
15:33
running. As you're moving from the clinic
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into commercialization, there also is a heavily different
15:41
emphasis that can really change the culture as you think about
15:45
the importance of compliance and ensuring that all materials
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you're sharing externally, especially from a promotional
15:53
standpoint or educational standpoint, uphold the
15:57
regulations and requirements that you need.
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And we are a highly, highly regulated industry.
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But one of the things I will say that sometimes people don't
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appreciate is when you're launching a product, oh, it's a
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lot of fun, right? It absolutely is.
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But there's also a lot of pressure because the investors
16:17
in your company, of course, want to be able to see the increase
16:24
in revenue in the organization and the ability to get a return
16:27
on their investment in your company.
16:29
So there can be a lot of pressure to ensure that you're
16:33
driving revenue. And in some cases, the company
16:37
also focuses its emphasis from being as scientifically oriented
16:43
to now balance the focus of commercialization.
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And that that does change culture.
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Yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously going through the
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scaling process, that makes sense.
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But on the other side of growth, some companies also go through
16:57
restructuring and downsizing. What have you learned?
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You know, if this is something that you've done before, about
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protecting the culture and trust during those more difficult
17:08
period? Yeah.
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So unfortunately I have been through several restructures
17:14
throughout my career in very large companies and small.
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A quick thing about large is given the scale of the company,
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the culture doesn't necessarily have the same impact as you
17:28
would see in a smaller company, right?
17:30
Because everyone knows each other and it's family and the
17:32
leadership is much more visible and accessible to employees.
17:37
What a couple of things that I have found that has helped to
17:40
preserve the culture is to the degree that you can be as
17:44
transparent around the state of the business, provide context as
17:48
to the rationale behind the decision.
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And the other thing I would say, which is something that I
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believe in and uphold is you need to treat the employees
18:01
being impacted with genuine grace and care and be as
18:06
generous as you can and supportive in their transition
18:09
from the company. I've seen companies not do that.
18:12
And obviously then the perception of the company and
18:18
does shift quite heavily. Unfortunately it does.
18:23
Then you, you do need to focus internally on stabilizing the
18:27
organization and acknowledging how difficult it is, then
18:30
creating a space where people can express how they're feeling
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about that and feel like you do care, right?
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Which of course, I'll say is my personal nature.
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I do care. Yeah, no, absolutely.
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And I think it's externally and internally that is something
18:47
that is really important because obviously the person has been
18:50
impacted by a layoff, but it does impact every single
18:53
employee in different ways, as you mentioned, especially in
18:57
smaller companies. So that that that does make
18:59
sense. Now there are times that
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companies can scale really quickly and leadership
19:04
capability often becomes a bottleneck.
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So how have you seen organizations manage the
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challenge of developing maybe inexperienced or first time
19:13
managers at pace? Like many companies, I have
19:18
personally implemented several programs for for frontline
19:23
managers and for leaders and lead leaders, and that does help
19:28
early career professionals gain a foundation of knowledge that
19:33
they can apply in the work that they're doing.
19:36
I personally believe you need to supplement that with really
19:39
strong mentorship both from their HR business partners and
19:43
their direct managers to help them apply some of the knowledge
19:48
that they're learning in the classroom to the experiences
19:51
that they're facing. The truth is though, gaining
19:54
cycles of experience as a manager and exposure to a number
19:59
of different situations. Well, is really critical in
20:03
their ability to step up as leaders and managers.
20:07
Unfortunately, I've also seen situations where people just
20:10
stretch too quickly. There's ambitious, they're in
20:13
the right place at the right time, they land in a really big
20:16
stretch role, and they don't have the foundation of
20:20
experience or the support system around them.
20:23
And in those cases, it can be really, really hard for them to
20:27
close the gap and become strong managers and leaders.
20:32
Yeah. It it does require quite, you
20:36
know, a number of different areas of the business to make
20:38
sure that especially new managers and new leaders can
20:42
really have that support from everyone so that they can gain
20:45
the experience. And I think as well as an
20:48
industry that there is a lot of maybe gaps in actual direct
20:54
management. A lot of people that I
20:55
personally speak to as well, they, you know, have a manager
20:58
title, but they don't necessarily manage a person.
21:01
So then when they're kind of given that responsibility, it
21:04
can then be like thrown in at the deep end.
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So I do think that exactly it's not just necessarily being able
21:13
to be taught in the classroom. They do need a bit of that on
21:15
hand experience, but mentorship is so, so important for these
21:18
types of positions. Now, obviously you've been with
21:22
Kardarian Now for just over a year.
21:25
How would you describe the culture today?
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So as I've already described right, it's a small company and
21:31
we are fortunate to have many talented individuals who are
21:38
deeply passionate about the work we do in the cardiovascular
21:42
space. We have unbelievable talent with
21:47
really deep expertise in cardiovascular research and the
21:52
company as a whole is very collaborative.
21:56
We, like many companies, have multiple functions and we come
22:01
together in order to collaborate in the design and execution
22:06
delivery of our programs. It's an incredibly agile
22:11
organization because when you're small, you have to be nimble
22:15
enough to adapt as new information comes forward around
22:18
the programs that you're running or as we learn more information
22:21
externally in the in the world around us.
22:25
It is a very collaborative group.
22:27
It's an agile group. It's a group that genuinely does
22:33
want to have a sense of community.
22:35
So there's the there definitely is a small family oriented feel
22:40
at Cardurion and you know it. What I would say also is like
22:46
many small companies, you have to have a bit of grit and heart
22:51
and the ability to persevere. And I see that.
22:54
I see our teams taking really big steps to try to do things in
23:01
a in an innovative and fast way and they rally together to get
23:07
it done. Amazing.
23:10
Now you as Kardurian, you know, you do work globally.
23:15
So how do you find the the the different cultures, different
23:19
countries, you know, tie into that culture really nicely?
23:24
Yeah. Well, Cardurian, the some of our
23:27
first employees joined out of Japan and we have a wonderful
23:32
group of about 15 colleagues there today who really compose
23:37
our research organization. And you know, the Japanese
23:42
culture is obviously very different than the US culture.
23:45
We do have some colleagues that are sitting out in Europe, but
23:49
but smaller set of colleagues there.
23:52
We have a lot of external collaborators, whether they're
23:55
clinical research organizations, consultants and other partners.
24:00
And so culturally right, we we have to be mindful of the
24:06
differences in communication. We have to be really mindful to
24:11
be inclusive and not overly emphasize right, the sort of US
24:17
way of doing things. Because the, the truth is, is if
24:21
we are going to do things to the best degree that we can in a
24:24
collaborative way, you, you have to seek to understand the needs
24:28
of other cultures and their communication styles, their
24:33
preferences. And, and it's a bit of a give
24:37
and take, right? You learn and adapt based upon
24:41
how your counterparts are operating.
24:43
We are global in that the programs and studies that we've
24:47
run are truly global. And so we have to be really
24:51
thoughtful that while, yes, we sit in the US, the regulations,
24:55
the way that each country operates and the requirements
24:58
that they have there are slightly different and we have
25:02
to be able to take the initiative to learn that and
25:06
incorporate it in the work that we're doing.
25:09
Yeah, absolutely. It definitely is really
25:12
important to be aware of how different countries and
25:16
different areas obviously operate.
25:19
I mean even the UK and the US, we're still quite different in
25:22
in the way that we operate to to you guys over there.
25:24
So I think that is is really important, especially in a small
25:27
company. I can imagine you feel a lot
25:29
more as well, but probably makes it a little bit more exciting
25:33
because you get to learn about a completely different culture
25:37
that you might not in another organization.
25:39
Actually, if you just worked in the straight U.S. company.
25:42
Now, between yourself and the leadership, as the company
25:46
evolves, what do you think of the most intent?
25:49
What are you most intentional about preserving as that company
25:52
does involve? Yeah.
25:55
I, you know, I would say it's hard to narrow it down to just
25:59
one thing. So I, I, I may suggest a couple
26:03
of areas. We really believe it is critical
26:08
to have a highly collaborative cross functional culture in the
26:12
way that we operate. So that is a big emphasis for us
26:16
in the organization in order to tap into the expertise that we
26:21
have cross functionally and ensure that we are working
26:27
together to design and deliver the the programs that we're
26:31
working on to patients in need. The the other thing I would say
26:36
is we do want to continue to preserve this community that
26:40
exists within our culture, this sense of belonging and
26:44
inclusiveness. It is really special in our
26:47
company and that is something I know that's very important to
26:50
our employees. They also would tell you our
26:54
employees that they really enjoy and it is something we are
26:58
focused on doing is incorporating this sort of
27:02
entrepreneurial spirit in the way we operate, right?
27:07
Continuing to be nimble and agile and Dr. quickly to
27:12
decisions. These are things that are super
27:15
important to differentiate your experience working in a biotech
27:20
company. And this is something that we
27:22
strive to uphold. And when things breakdown,
27:25
right, because they do in any company, we work together to try
27:30
to understand what's going on and come to a solution as one
27:34
team. Amazing.
27:37
OK. And then finally, what advice
27:40
would you give to someone currently standing at one of
27:43
those crossroads in their career?
27:44
You mentioned earlier on where the next move maybe isn't
27:48
obvious, but it potentially could be transformative.
27:52
Yeah, I definitely jumped into several stretch rolls that were
27:58
transformative for me throughout my career.
28:01
And I, you know, if I'm honest, when I was younger, I was
28:04
incredibly career motivated and driven.
28:07
I was ambitious, right. A lot of people are at that
28:11
stage in your 20s and 30s and even 40s.
28:15
And there were times that I sacrificed a lot for my career
28:21
and, and that impacted my well-being, but also my family.
28:25
And so while this is probably not the typical answer that you
28:29
would hear, what I would encourage people to think about
28:32
is there is a place in time in your career where that truly may
28:37
make sense. But be mindful to think about
28:39
all facets of your life and that you're not throwing one part of
28:44
your life completely out of balance for your career.
28:47
And if you do step in to a really big stretch role or make
28:52
a big move, ensure you have the resources and support system
28:56
around you to help you. It's going to be a pretty big
28:59
change and there will be moments that you feel vulnerable, maybe
29:04
that you lack the knowledge and experience and it's OK to admit
29:09
that and to tap into the expertise of others around you
29:13
to actually ask for help. You will find that people will
29:18
rally behind you and support you and not judge you.
29:23
They'll judge you more if you don't ask for help.
29:26
That is what I've learned in my career and don't be shy about
29:33
it, right? I, I will tell you, I've taken
29:35
a, I, I've taken a few roles in my career and I've acknowledged
29:39
even to board members, Look, I really don't have this
29:42
experience. And while I'm confident I can
29:45
learn it, I'll need your help. And I've been fortunate enough
29:50
to receive those opportunities throughout my career.
29:54
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for
29:57
taking the time to film the podcast with me today.
30:00
It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much for
30:03
having, for being on. Thank you, Rebecca.