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47. The Sabbatical Conversation: What Financial Advisors Need to Know About Work Breaks and Client Wellbeing with Cady North · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it always seems sort of like this glitz and glam break, like somebody's traveling around the world, right?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one way to do a sabbatical, but that's not the only way to do a sabbatical.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it's just an intentional weeks or months-long break from work.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the point of this break is really to take some time to figure out who you are when you're not working.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations, drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's mastering discovery meaning, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and I'm so glad that you're here today listening because this is going to be a really great conversation.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know I say that about all of our conversations, but this is going to be a really great conversation, something that I've been itching to kind of talk about because it's come up a lot in the work that I've been doing, uh, coaching and training advisors, but also working directly with their clients as well.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have with me here our guest, Katie North, and she is the author of The Art of the Sabbatical.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know many of you can't see me on video, but I'm holding up her book here and it is so lovely.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's got the blue, uh, it's blue, it's like beyond the plan blue.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm attracted to it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: But she has written this really fantastic book.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so I've invited her on to share a little bit about how advisors can help work with their clients around taking a sabbatical, uh, what role do they play?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, all of those great things.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, welcome to the show.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful that you're here today.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Ashley.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I know I gave you a little bit of an intro, probably not the best intro.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's probably not my best, probably not my best shot.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: But would you mind maybe just taking a minute or two to just share with our listeners a little bit about you, a little bit about yourself?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for the last 10 years, I've been running my financial planning practice as a solo advisor.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: My firm is called North Financial Advisors.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I found early on that there was going to be a limit to how many people that I can work with one-on-one as clients.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have this whole other side of me that likes to have creative outlets.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2020, I started writing books.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the Art of the Sabbath is my second book.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's a way to process and get my thoughts down and also be able to reach more people than I would be able to reach just as a financial advisor.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I find it to be a really cool outlet.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I have other book ideas too that I may tackle at some point.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing that you'll have to keep us posted for sure.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe come back and share a little bit more about that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I mentioned kind of in the introduction there, talking about sabbaticals.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a word at least that I am hearing a lot more of coming up in the financial planning context.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So advisors working with their clients.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to dive into all things sabbatical and what advisors need to know about.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: However, before we kind of really dive into all of the juicy, like fantastic stuff, I feel like we should put some definition to maybe what a sabbatical is or what it isn't.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there might even be some myths uh they heard uh around that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, from your perspective, can you, how do you define, I guess, what a sabbatical is or is not?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think when people hear the word and it, you know, it's become something that comes into pop culture often.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: You see it a lot in a show or a movie, so-and-so went on sabbatical.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it always seems sort of like this glitz and glam break, like somebody's traveling around the world, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one way to do a sabbatical, but that's not the only way to do a sabbatical.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it's just an intentional weeks or months-long break from work.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the point of this break is really to take some time to figure out who you are when you're not working.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be associated with a vacation or a magical trip, though those can be really great outlets to discover new things about you, about the world.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it's really just about, I see it as like a self-reflection time and an intentional time to kind of be with yourself.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you can do this through a lot of things, through a lot of ways.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of my clients who've taken sabbaticals have taken the time off to finish a writing project or like a dissertation.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really great way to get to know yourself and do self-reflection, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you take time to take stock in your career or your personal life to spend more time with family.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even supporting a loved one through illness is an example of what I would still consider a sabbatical, right?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, there's the you know, multi-country trip that you're in Bali and you're doing your eight prey love tour, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's totally literally the book that came to my mind.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm hearing from you that a sabbatical is not just someone in academia that takes a year off and gallivants around the world.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, right.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that was actually like in your book, like you described, and like kind of talked about that.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized like for myself, I think I had some associations of sabbaticals just for people in like all I heard about it was for people that were in academia.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't really hear about it for people um outside of the academic world.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I didn't think that I guess, you know, I didn't really think and realize, but I've been hearing it more and more.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I love your definition around it's really just a break.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that could be weeks, it could be a few months, maybe a year or potentially like longer, but it's a break to figure out and learn a little bit more about yourself, uh, you know, there.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things um that stood out to me, I think too, and I'm curious, I know for the book, like you did a lot of interviews, but you talked about how it's breaking patterns as well, is having like enough time to break some of the habits or patterns.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share a little bit about like, you know, kind of in your in your work, in your book, and in your interview for the book, like what did you find like as far as what patterns kind of need to be broken as far as taking a sabbatical?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, one thing I found first and foremost is that most sabbaticals are actually completely unplanned.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason for this could range from being laid off to just completely experiencing burnout and just saying, enough is enough.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have to.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like the only way to do this is to shut it down.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, when I took my work break way before I started my firm, that was the case for me, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have not planned this really and truly.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had just, I woke up one morning and I was literally, I can't, I can't do this anymore.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I immediately started learning and when I took my work break is that I tie so much of my general well-being and self-esteem to what it is that I do for a living.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to let that go real bad.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a pattern that continued to show up as I would wake up in the morning and not have a plan and not have a sort of a purpose for the day.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the it was uncomfortable at first, you know, it was very uncomfortable.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to figure my way through it, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to start unlearning that association with what I do for work means this is who I am and how successful I am, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the case for a lot of people and what a lot of people experience.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And one cautionary tale is a lot of people when they go on sabbatical, they try to busy their their way through it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they say, Oh, look, I've got all this time, I'm gonna do XYZ projects on the house, I'm gonna go on this trip, I'm gonna do this and that and the other.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time the sabbatical is over, they've never taken this moment of self-reflection and never really kind of considered like, how does this play out in my life?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: This pattern of work over work, maybe rising to the level of burnout or not.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, how what is my association with what I do and and my self-esteem?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's so, yeah, I think that's so good.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, not to give away a lot of spoilers from your book, but one of the things that really resonated with me was the structure of it and how you didn't jump just to like the numbers part of like sabbatical.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that can be sometimes the scary part, but really like first and foremost, understanding like what it is and the self-reflection aspect of how oftentimes, yeah, like work can be like tied to our identity and who am I, and really focusing on that reflection piece, maybe through this work break of well, who, who am I without this part?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And where else in my life do I derive meaning and purpose from?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's really unique is that you had this, you know, personal, very personal experience um, you know, tied to that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm curious from some of your, from some of your work, um, are there any other pieces that when it comes to taking a sabbatical, albeit planned or unplanned, like other than I'll say identity, that you find that clients might struggle with?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the important thing to remember when working with clients taking sabbaticals is this is a moment that marks a life change.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whether the sabbatical itself is the life change or what the sabbatical means becomes a life change because it's often associated with like a uh career change or shift, a pivot of some sort.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or like I said before, if there is a layoff, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like soul searching around what it is that you want to do next, or simply just taking the intentional break because you you have the time and space to do it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe your employer is lucky enough to offer you this as a benefit, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: To imagine putting yourself in the client's shoes and saying, okay, like I'm going through a major life change night let right now.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: What sort of support do I need?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And listen, it's not always financial, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's and it oftentimes the financial piece takes such a back seat.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's who do I have in my life who can support me in this?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do I talk about it with my friends and family?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do I navigate my way through this time off, allowing myself the time for self-reflection and space, but also, you know, making sure that I'm not just sitting on apps on my phone all day.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think it's really important to have a community around you because it can feel really lonely, especially like if you're uh a super outgoing person and you've gotten so used to having coworkers around you all day and stuff.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like um it's a big time change.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get to really figure out what you need as far as social interaction too, you know?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, those are some big, some big lessons that I learned with this.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think allowing the time and space for clients to share that sort of information and maybe inquiring about it through, you know, questions that sort of dig deeper on those types of fronts, I think can be really powerful and puts you in a position to really support people in a way that they've never been supported.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one of the things that I had not maybe sat with and considered is how necessary you said support is, and it's not just the financial.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I found myself starting to think about like, okay, if I took a sabbat, like the first place that I went to as most is like the numbers, like the affordability, you know, piece.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where for a lot of clients the value is in working with a planner, somebody like you, is that that part can be figured out.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sometimes that's the easy part is the affordability piece.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the I love that you talked about support because I had not thought about creating a plan, a support plan.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, who are you gonna say?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: How are you gonna explain this?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know that if I went to my family in particular, like my extended family, and I said, Hey, I'm just gonna take a sabbatical for like six months, I don't think that they would understand.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I fear, I could be wrong, especially if my parents are listening right now, they might be like, oh my gosh, we would not say that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that they would that there would be some judgment there or disappointment because there's maybe some inaccurate judgments or thoughts around what a sabbatical is, as we kind of talked about here earlier, from a support kind of plan place and like how to talk about it with others.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you coach clients?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how can advisors like kind of help coach clients around how to talk about it with their support systems?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you start with all of that?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I love to ask clients themselves like, have you thought about how you're gonna explain this to your friends and family?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but it will be an opening window to start brainstorming.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have some quotes in my book of what people have used, and it's just something like, you know, I decided to take a break from from working for now, and I don't exactly know what I'm gonna do next, but I'm enjoying this time off and I feel safe and supported and financially okay to do this.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: That usually will shut people up, honestly.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's also an opening, you know, something I share in my book, it's also an opening to figure out who will be your support during this time because some people will get it and they'll say, you know, I've that's so courageous.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to do something like that.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: How did you figure it out?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or some people will look at you like you have three heads and like, why would you do such a thing?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think some of my and some of the folks that I talked with for the book had that experience of the latter.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And their solution was to seek out someone else for support, you know, to ask another person, to ask another mentor, to talk about it with other people and to find the right folks who can be part of your tribe as you go through this moment.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I and I think that having a tribe, as you said, really is key to navigating it and from an accountability place too, but learning and exploration, you know, as well, uh, around that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we've talked a little bit about like what kind of a sabbatical is, like or isn't?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Have you found, I guess, going back to that a little bit, like, is there, I don't know, in my mind, I think about taking just four weeks off.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Technically, that would be a sabbatical, but in my mind, I'm like, that also sounds like a really awesome vacation.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is there like a sweet spot, I guess, between like how much is enough time to kind of find yourself and figure, figure yourself out and break some of those like patterns, I guess.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Have you found in your work that there tends to be a more common kind of sweet spot for something that allows creativity, meaning, and purpose to come out of that time off?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a really interesting exercise to figure out this for you might be to go back and look at emails from a period of time when things were a little hectic and a little crazy and see how much charge those emails still have for you and how much time has passed since that happened.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I did that exercise for myself recently, and I was looking at like back from my corporate days, some situation that was going on.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember it being extremely emotionally charged and like everybody was knee deep in it and like, wow, we got to figure this out.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was looking at those emails and I was like, I don't even remember the context.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just remember the the feeling, the emotion, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so enough time had passed that I was like, this is not, this is not important for me anymore.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can understand that, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the same thing happens to us when we stop working.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for most people, they think four weeks is this luxurious amount of time.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: But really, for most folks, like three to four weeks, you're just now like getting rid of all of that emergency, like, oh, I've got to fix this, I got to do this, keep to my schedule, make sure my checklist is done.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're just now starting to let that go after three or four weeks.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like even six weeks might be a better like first start goal.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other interesting piece to this is the reality is most of my clients who've taken work breaks, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: They say they're gonna take six months and they end up taking eight or 12, you know.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is because the the goal of the original sabbatical ends up being the starting point for deciding what they're gonna do next and go, you know, executing on that.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that takes time, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can't, you're not just gonna be willing to jump right into the next thing, whatever shows up on your doorstep.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be intentional with your job search and it needs to, it needs to reflect all the work that you did, um, you know, figuring out what it is that you want to do next.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm with you.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like for just myself personally, like four weeks, like I would just be starting to like let go of and shedding, you know, a lot of a lot of things.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I could see, I think about it like maternity leave.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I took 12 weeks off.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And listen, I'm not comparing sabbatical to maternity leave by any means, but just like the time off piece.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, like that seems like enough time to maybe break up some some patterns and start to settle in a little bit, uh, a little bit there.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to clients who, and I've had this experience, maybe you have as well, but clients where, you know, there is that high level of burnout.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also enough, I'll say, quote, enough money to where they could take, I'll say a sabbatical time off.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's resistance there.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very clear that a time or a break from work would be, you know, super, super restorative just from a whole well-being place.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But they're resistant like to doing it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm curious, like, how do you kind of work with clients where they say, like, I want to take a sabbatical, I want to take time off?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so burnt out, I'm so burnt out, but I'm scared too.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I have enough money.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know you tell me, Katie, that I have enough money, but what if I can't then jump back into and make the same income or all of the things?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you maybe work with clients where a sabbatical would be beneficial for them, but there's some resistance and fear?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think a lot of times in those cases, the fear comes from not the break necessarily, although that may be part of it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like the future casting of where I'm gonna be after the sabbatical, and I have to get right back on that horse and be just as productive as I was before and really shooting for the stars and not, you know, meeting my goals, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is, like, people like that want to just plan every move, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that has done done a really good job for you in the past, but this is a time to let go of it, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say, like, try to position yourself as an indispensable ally to your clients.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the best thing to do is not to put your thoughts and behaviors or fears on them, but to create a place of open dialogue where your clients can feel safe to share the fears and you can go through them one by one.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think, you know, that fear is where is that fear coming from?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, I don't need to have the answers to these, to these questions, but I need to be in a place to be able to ask, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, what's what's really concerning you here?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's talk about it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about how it's worked for other people.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times clients will come up with these solutions all on their own.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be the all-knowing person coming out talking down to your clients with some answers like we do sort of with financial and retirement planning, right?
• 21:08
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• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I could see how that would be really scary.
• 21:14
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• 21:17
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• 21:23
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• 21:40
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• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get back to the show.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to working with clients who are in, like actively in a sabbatical, I'm just thinking, like from a planner standpoint, like how or do you do things differently?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, you've planned for the sabbatical, client has taken action, they've started it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And let's just say it's a year, like a year-long sabbatical.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does your role as an advisor do you do anything differently?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like when clients are actively in a sabbatical versus you know not?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: So one piece of support that I often provide is sort of like this concept of a runway.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: When we start the sabbatical, like what's your months of runway that you have that you could support your cost of living?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that that can be a real anxiety reducer when clients know like, oh, I'm safe for X number of months.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't need to worry about this right now.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And one way we also demystify or like deconfuse this process is we take known fixed costs, like the cost of plane tickets somewhere or a course that they're doing or some fun hobby project, whatever it is.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of put those in a separate bucket of like, hey, we've got all the money set aside to do these specific things that you said you wanted to do.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Even despite taking that money out of the pot, we have this much months of runway to cover your costs of living.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that can just be a really nice, like, okay, like I had a freak out moment.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm good.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like Katie said it's okay.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I do those check-ins and I kind of seek out the client of like as far as how often we do a check-in like that, but like maybe once a quarter is reasonable.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's far more often than I might reach out to my clients about a budget type question on a normal basis, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of support I think is helpful.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or if there's changes that occur, like somebody gets back from a trip, you know, to Costa Rica and they're like, you know what, I got this great idea and I'm gonna just go on a like jeep journey in Baja, California for the next three months.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I totally changed my plan.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's figure it out.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, cool, let's do it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and so, you know, I find that despite all the best planning, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like people, once they get on sabbatical and start doing this journey, you know, things start to change for them.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think welcoming those changes and supporting those changes is a really great place to be from an advisor perspective, being able to check in with them, just a quick email, hey, how is the sabbatical going?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that's an open-ended way to like understand what they're experiencing and working with.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that the you know, modifying just kind of the check-in process and the runway, that runway, you know, framing there and checking in more frequently, which makes, you know, obviously a lot of sense.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I could certainly see, you know, Costa Rica, Baja, California, like, you know, sometimes plans can change and ideas can happen.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fantastic.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you want there to be, you know, also the runway and the ability for the client to say yes, you know, to those things, especially during that time.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we've talked a little bit a lot actually about, you know, kind of more like overtly, like when if you're talking with clients around sabbatical, but what if, you know, in working with a client, they've not brought up the idea of a sabbatical.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe on your end as the planner, there's this kind of thought or feeling around a sabbatical might actually be like really helpful for them, but I don't know how to bring it up.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for clients or for situations where it's never been mentioned, but maybe your spidey sense kind of tells you that it could be helpful.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do you just bring up to clients the idea of have you considered taking a sabbatical?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, pretty much bluntly like that.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you considered taking a work break?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, have you ever explored the idea of taking some time off here?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and from there, there's often a like a brainstorming process because it is a lot of times possible to take extended work breaks from your existing employer if you just ask, whether it's a specific policy that's in place or it's a special treatment, like for various reasons, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's okay just to ask, right?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I will say something like, you know, I have the experience helping clients negotiate taking six months off FMLA leave and taking disability to tackle burnout.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have experience with this and that.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you considered it?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you want some support on this?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, people are usually pretty open to that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're not, you know, sometimes they're not there yet.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they're they're like, and you might at that point just be planting a seed that could come up in the future.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any signs like on your end, like working with clients that speak to you in a way of like, okay, I probably should, it might be good to bring this up about taking a work break.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things on the client end that you look for, see, or notice that speak to you in a way of when it might be time to bring that up?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think those like burnout signs and symbols, like, oh, you know, I'm so busy and I'm this and that, and I feel really stressed out, and this is happening and that is happening.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I start to hear those things and I I have a lot of compassion, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is hard.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can see that it's hard for you.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever thought about taking some time off?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And is that like, you know, I'm because I'm sure I'm just thinking, you know, gosh, every a lot of people say, like, oh, I'm so busy and I don't have time.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's almost like this badge of honor, right?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: That I think like that culturally that we just kind of wear.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: But is that for you like, you know, I've been hearing you say this for the last three years?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I would imagine like there's got to be some kind of like frequency like pattern, you know, there on your end where you're like, okay, like if I hear you say this one more time, like I'm going to, uh, you know, there are these just kind of one-off like moments where I don't know, for your you just kind of bring it up even in the one-off you know, moments as well.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would say occasionally you get the type of person who's maybe close-ish to retirement and has nothing but complaining to do about their job.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we could spend some time like really buckling down and figuring out like a step down in employment that would bring a lot of time and energy and space, right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or um some sort of consulting that would bring in some income but get you out of the corporate world.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do find that, you know, you might have to bring these things up a couple of times because it just doesn't, it does not compute for a lot of people.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is so ingrained from such a young age.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you gonna be when you grow up?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: What's your major?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like a cocktail party, number one.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who I am is what I do.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it really takes a lot to overcome that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me in the planner chair, like I really have to take that to heart and realize like, not everyone has like been exposed to this or been felt comfortable with it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: They may be holding on to like gen even generational stuff like floating around in their head.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like my job is to just be present with it and help them think through it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and it it absolutely might take several conversations for it to start to amount to some sort of plan or change in the plan.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I could see that just planting the seed and just, you know, continuing to kind of water that over time for for them.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And in the conversations, you know, with clients that I've had where that has been brought up, I think about like the stages of change, uh, like model, the trans theoretical model.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's like a oh, okay, let me contemplate on this a little bit more uh around taking this work break.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe then it's okay, you keep telling me this, Katie.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And all right, maybe I start to, you know, move towards some, you know, kind of action and pulling the trigger.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So having, you know, dropping that and weaving that in multiple times, watering that seed, um, I it doesn't surprise me, I guess, to hear you say that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, so we talked a lot about like what to do for clients, you know, taking or wanting to take sabbatical or like some signs there.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess I'm curious from your standpoint, are there certain clients, personalities, or situations where maybe it's not appropriate to take a sabbatical?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've talked a lot about like how it's like really great and you know, like some of the benefits and stuff like that of it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: But have you found like in some scenarios or with certain types of clients where maybe it's it's not appropriate, it's not the best option?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, in general, I think a sabbatical really could benefit anyone, no matter your age, no matter your generation, no matter your kind of period in the workforce, your your career um trajectory.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think really anyone could benefit from it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, one issue is, does happen to be like the financial piece where you may not be in a place financially where it could make a ton of sense.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's when you can start to change your tact a little bit and create maybe create a plan, working on creating a plan to become more financially able to do something like this, which I'm not gonna lie, it could take years.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: It might not take as long as the client thinks, but it's like it has to be something that's intentional.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, that's an aspect of what I work on with clients.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if you're in your 30s and you have a solid emergency fund, but we're still working on reaching some certain like early milestones related to retirement, for instance, like taking a year out of the workforce might not be as detrimental as you think, but still we need to like look at the scenarios and figure it out and make sure that you're not gonna just like dive through your entire emergency savings to do something like this, because that could also be problematic, right?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it's, you know, like all things we do as advisors, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: You want we want our clients to be intentional with their money, to give their money, the give their dollars a job.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And in some cases, our job is to figure out like how we help our clients create that plan to do what it is they want to do.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's that's super valuable.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it doesn't mean they're not also going to deal with these mindset issues that we've been talking about.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it might take longer to unfold and figure out when those things could come up.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So for advisors, maybe who are listening, and maybe they've not worked with a lot of clients uh who have taken sabbatical, but listening to this conversation, they're like, oh my gosh.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I would love to learn more about like how to do that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: What types of resources or tips like would you point them to or suggest as far as how they can start to learn more about how to either structure or talk about or just learn about sabbaticals?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of academic research on this topic, which is a bit of frustration.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the reasons why I wanted to write this book, because, you know, there's not like a one size fits all approach on this.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think starting with my book as a resource, you know, would be really great because I do include a lot of questions and reflective insights that you can even use with your clients and ask them those types of reflective questions, you know, to get them thinking about it.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately your clients will be your teacher because no two sabbatical plans are the same.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so your clients will teach you sort of how this may go.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think ultimately being open and curious to like knowing that this is a this is first of all a trend for folks.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's becoming more and more accepted.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's becoming more and more an option uh in corporate world that you get a sabbatical program as a benefit.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just something you're gonna have to learn about and figure out um because it's it's here to stay.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's definitely expanded beyond the professor world.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, which is nice to see.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, looking at some of those, you know, corporate benefits, um, which I, you know, reading around, I was like, gosh, I didn't even know like that that could be an option to look and see and like figure out.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, diving in, I could see diving in to understand the benefits or how even, I think you said earlier, like how to negotiate that even like with an employer would be great or would be fantastic.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would agree, certainly starting with your book is a wonderful, wonderful place to start.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I appreciated about it was the incorporation of the mindset and the financial side of things, because they go truly like hand in hand there when it comes to doing something that for a lot of people might seem pretty radical, um, you know, against the green, against kind of the norm there.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but ultimately I believe could be very beneficial, very transformative for for their life, for their well-being as well.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Katie, as we start to wind things down, we've talked about a lot of just kind of different pieces and parts like of sabbatical.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, before we sign off, is there anything that we didn't maybe get to, or is there anything important that you feel like uh advisors should know about sabbatical working with clients that maybe we haven't talked about already?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think one aspect we haven't covered yet is sort of the return to work after the sabbatical and the role the advisor can play in that time frame too, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's there's gonna be things that come up with that, not just the job hunt, but actually like transitioning back into that world.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to set expectations for clients, first of all, that there is gonna be some transition time.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: It'll probably take longer than you think to find the right role if you're needing to make a change and you're not just going back to your original employer.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the important thing to remember is if like the clients never they didn't lose their expertise, they didn't lose their experience, they didn't lose their years of time in the workforce, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: The in fact, the sabbatical probably enhanced a lot of those experiences.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's important to figure out what stories you're gonna tell that highlight that.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: And our role as advisors is not to be a career coach per se, but I think just opening the window for clients to be thinking about these things can be really useful.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if necessary, you know, maybe recommending some sort of career coach in this space if you're not comfortable kind of serving as a sounding board on it to help clients navigate this transition could be really useful.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really important to get, I think, for clients when they're returning to work to get very specific on their ask, to not just tell their network, oh, I'm looking for work, I'm open to anything.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the worst thing that you can tell people because they're gonna be like, well, I don't really know who to, I how can I, you know, and so it's better to get really specific, even if your specific ask changes based on who you're talking to, right?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And say, I'm looking for a job in this field with these three comp three companies or types of companies.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have experience X, Y, and Z.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's the kind of question that gets people kind of in your corner ready to help you.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not like I'm open for anything, right?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think talking about some of those sorts of things, um, even drawing maybe on your own experience looking for work, right, can be useful so that you can be an effective sounding board for your clients going through something like this.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: But also to remember, you know, we as advisors have a role to help our clients get more money and negotiate for things that they need, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is something I love doing for clients is helping them figure out what's a signing bonus look like, what's your salary, what's your package, like what have you talked through in terms of these negotiation points?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a way that we can provide a ton of value to clients too.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think that's I'm so glad that you brought that up around planning for and looking at the return to work side uh as well, because you're right, like that is just as important as figuring out the taking time away and taking time off and understanding what that transition, um, how much runway do you need, uh, you know, even there on that side of things.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for bringing that up.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that is a wonderful way to kind of bookend uh this conversation here.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Katie, as our time is sadly coming to an end, if advisors who are listening want to learn more about you, want to learn more about your work, where can they find you?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Where can they connect with you?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to have a conversation.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: My book, The Art of a Sabbatical, is available on Amazon and everywhere books are sold.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I recorded my own audiobook, so it's available in audio if you like that, ebook, and you know, regular print.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I love being able to reach people that way.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then of course, my author website is katynorth.com and my name is spelled kind of funny, C-A-D-Y-N-O-R-T-H.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that we include those links in the show notes for you to access easily.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you to all of you who are tuning in today, who tuned into this conversation with Katie and myself.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for allowing us into your mind and into your ears.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you found this conversation valuable, if it resonated with you, I'd love to keep the connection going.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and like Katie, you can find me on LinkedIn as well, where I share insights around the integration of financial planning and the human side of money.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like more Beyond the Plan, more Ashley Kwame in your life, you can also check out our website, www.beondthefp.com, and sign up for our monthly newsletter where we share resources, practical strategies, tips, tools, all the good stuff there.
• 41:10
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• 41:16
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• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 41:39
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• 41:45
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• 41:50
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