Latest / Future Christian / Redefining Leadership: Andrew Draper on Disability, Inclusion, and the Power of Community

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Redefining Leadership: Andrew Draper on Disability, Inclusion, and the Power of Community · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend
0:49
Dr. Nandra T. Draper to the
0:51
program. Nandra is founding
0:54
teaching pastor at Urban Light Community
0:57
Church in Luncie, Indiana,
1:00
and adjunct theology faculty
1:02
at Anderson School of Theology and
1:05
Weinbrenner Seminary. He is the author of
1:08
A Theology of Race and Place, Christian
1:11
Mission and Poverty, and numerous
1:14
articles on race, disability, and the
1:17
church. A reminder. Before we start
1:19
today's conversation, please take a moment to
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subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
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share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
1:28
with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on
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Instagram. Shoot us an
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email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
1:37
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
1:40
episodes. We appreciate your voice
1:43
in how we faithfully discern the future of
1:46
the church.
1:56
>> Loren: All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
1:59
Richmond, Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
2:02
welcoming Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper. So
2:04
welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
2:07
>> Andrew Draper: Thank you so much for inviting me.
2:09
>> Loren: Yeah, great to have you. Anything else you want our listeners
2:12
to know about you?
2:15
>> Andrew Draper: I grew up in Ohio. I've lived most of my life
2:18
in the Midwest. Um, for the last
2:21
20 years, have been involved in community
2:23
development work in a local parish in
2:26
Indiana that is committed
2:28
to, uh, reconciliation and justice
2:31
work locally. Uh,
2:34
most recently, I am
2:37
working for our denominational seminary,
2:39
Weinbrenner Theological Seminary in Ohio.
2:43
Uh, I'm there a couple days a week and then back in
2:45
Muncie working virtually the rest of the week and
2:48
just pastoring part time.
2:51
>> Loren: Give me, like, a Midwestern nice
2:53
phraseology. That's the cliche, right?
2:57
>> Andrew Draper: It is. That's the cliche.
2:59
>> Loren: What's it? Is that true or is that, like,
3:01
overstated?
3:03
>> Andrew Draper: Um, I think it's true in the sense
3:06
that, you know,
3:08
if you run into somebody
3:11
or head toward the same direction that someone
3:14
else is going, you fall all over yourself
3:17
to apologize. Oh, I'm sorry, my bad.
3:20
You, you go ahead. If somebody else steps in
3:23
front, you go, oh, no worries.
3:25
Um, we say. We say,
3:28
oh, A lot and we don't even realize it.
3:32
Something, um, will happen. You'll go ope,
3:35
which, uh, isn't really a word, but everyone sort of knows what it
3:38
means. Um, you also can't
3:41
turn down an invitation in the
3:44
Midwest straightforwardly. You have to say, oh,
3:47
let me check my schedule and get back with you.
3:50
That just basically means you're never going to get back with the
3:52
person.
3:54
>> Loren: Well, thank you for not, uh, turning
3:57
down my schedule request here.
4:00
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah. If I had replied with hey Loren,
4:03
I appreciate it, let's connect sometime,
4:06
that would have been a hard no.
4:08
>> Loren: Okay, good to know. Good to know.
4:11
Share if you would, just a little about your faith
4:14
background, what that looks like, uh, in the past and what
4:17
that looks like today.
4:20
>> Andrew Draper: So I grew up in an evangelical
4:23
tradition, the Churches of God, but it's an older
4:25
evangelical tradition before the culture
4:28
wars of the
4:31
fundamentalist modernist divide
4:34
in the early 20th century.
4:37
So uh, we grew out of
4:39
a revivalist and social reform
4:42
movement. Uh, so
4:48
some, um, of the key focuses were on
4:51
evangelism, um, a
4:54
high view of the scriptures, but then also,
4:57
uh, abolition of the slave trade,
5:03
anti war, uh,
5:06
ordination of women was a key
5:08
factor as early as the 1850s.
5:12
Um, so there's a, there's a bit
5:14
more nuance in our history perhaps than some of
5:17
the more modern
5:19
reformed evangelicalism that we, that we tend to
5:22
think of, uh, when. And I've appreciated my
5:25
roots more over recent years because in, in
5:28
as a young adult I went through quite a process of
5:31
what, what today they call deconstruction and being
5:34
pretty, um, disillusioned
5:37
with the church in a lot of ways,
5:40
um,
5:43
and wanting uh, a more holistic faith
5:45
focused on justice, uh, a
5:48
more inclusive table,
5:51
um, a more diverse
5:54
experience of the faith. Um,
5:57
and yet in recent years there's
6:00
much of my
6:03
upbringing and the
6:06
strong ah, focus on the uh,
6:09
centrality of Jesus and the scriptures
6:11
that has been of increasing importance to me
6:14
in recent years. So, um,
6:18
I'm probably not quite in as much of
6:20
a, uh,
6:23
uh, you know, what, what in the academy we would call a
6:26
hermeneutic of suspicion as I might have been at one point.
6:29
Although I still think, uh,
6:32
that there's a lot to be gained from
6:35
asking the hard questions and deconstructing, uh,
6:39
harmful theology.
6:42
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, uh, share if you would, anything,
6:45
anything you want about spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines
6:48
that are meaningful for you.
6:54
>> Andrew Draper: So that was one of the pieces that was
6:57
probably lacking in my evangelical
6:59
upbringing. Uh, we were all about
7:03
uh, the conversion experience,
7:06
but then didn't really know what to do with people
7:09
once they were in the church. We knew kind
7:12
of what we could articulate what we were saved from,
7:15
perhaps, uh, in terms of what we were
7:18
against, but maybe not so much what we were
7:20
saved for. And so,
7:23
um, contemplative
7:26
spiritual practices have been very important to me in
7:29
the last couple decades.
7:32
Um, lectio divina,
7:35
other ways of engaging with the text in
7:38
a contemplative, reflective
7:40
manner. Mhm. Journaling,
7:47
even images and iconography has been
7:50
important to me at various times.
7:53
Uh,
7:56
you know, I've tried to have disciplines of
7:59
fasting at different times and, and I'm, I'm not
8:02
real great at it. And so what I've tried to do is to
8:05
focus instead on um,
8:08
things that I can give up for a
8:10
period that help me be more balanced,
8:13
uh, so that I don't slip into legalism because
8:16
that's always a
8:18
temptation. Um,
8:21
is, is for my faith to kind of be
8:24
crushed by something that I feel is legalistic.
8:27
So
8:28
um, different disciplines
8:31
at different times are helpful. Solitude,
8:34
uh, rest,
8:37
worship, rejoicing, all of those
8:40
components have been life giving to me over the years.
8:43
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that.
8:46
So let's talk about, uh, Nandra is the
8:49
co author of the book Disabling
8:52
A, uh, Practical Theology for the Broken
8:55
Body of Christ. Why don't you begin
8:58
by talking about. Nandra is a co author here. So why don't
9:01
you share about your co authors here and then
9:04
just talk about kind of what brought the book about.
9:07
>> Andrew Draper: There are three of us who wrote the book
9:10
together. My two co
9:13
authors are Jody,
9:16
Michelle and Andrea May.
9:19
We have been part of the same
9:22
local faith community
9:24
for probably 15 to 20
9:27
years.
9:30
We are each part of the disability
9:33
community in various
9:36
ways.
9:38
And several years
9:41
ago we recognized together
9:46
some of the limitations
9:48
in how our framework of
9:51
reconciliation conceived of
9:53
inclusion of people with disabilities.
9:58
Being a justice oriented church,
10:01
we had focused quite a bit on
10:04
ethnic diversity and socioeconomic
10:06
diversity,
10:07
um, working
10:10
toward connecting people with
10:13
resources and alleviation of poverty and things like
10:15
that. And
10:18
our congregation was inclusive of people with
10:21
disabilities, but in
10:23
our more explicit framework
10:27
we uh, weren't thinking perhaps as
10:30
a church in a real
10:32
robust manner
10:35
about what it means to be a
10:37
diverse body in terms of abilities.
10:40
And so we um,
10:43
had each had our
10:46
own work in this area.
10:49
Um, my PhD is in theological
10:52
ethics and I had done a lot of work in theological anthropology.
10:55
And so some of that like basically what does it mean to
10:58
be human?
10:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
11:00
>> Andrew Draper: And so a lot of that work
11:02
overlaps with Conversations
11:05
in disability Theology.
11:08
Um, I am textbook, um,
11:12
obsessive compulsive. Uh, my wife has several
11:15
rheumatological conditions, and one of our sons is
11:17
autistic. Um, my mother has
11:20
dementia. And so we, uh,
11:23
we're used to thinking,
11:26
uh, deeply and carefully about theology and practice
11:28
in terms of disability in our family.
11:31
Uh, Jody, uh, is
11:34
a disability activist,
11:36
author, and consultant,
11:39
uh, who has cerebral palsy.
11:42
Um, Andrea
11:45
has three children with profound disabilities
11:48
and has worked in special
11:50
education. Uh,
11:53
so the three of us, uh, came
11:56
together and realized that we could take some of the work that we
11:59
were doing independently from one another
12:02
and
12:03
incorporate
12:07
themes, uh, of justice and reconciliation
12:10
into disability theology from the perspective of
12:13
local congregations.
12:16
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing all that background.
12:19
I, uh, think it is really interesting the way y'all are able to
12:22
weave together your different perspectives
12:24
and backgrounds, um, into the
12:27
book. I want to jump in
12:29
to some of the points you make. You know, you talked
12:32
earlier in your introduction kind of about a
12:35
hermeneutic of suspicion. And I think
12:38
one of the things that was interesting, I really found
12:41
interesting, at least in the book, was the way that
12:44
you talk. Y'all talked about
12:47
the benefits and limits of things like, you know,
12:50
deconstruction, critical theory. So I want
12:53
to just read a couple quotes here. You know, early on,
12:56
you say that while we appreciate critical studies for the way
12:58
it helps us name certain power structures as
13:01
idolatry, critical studies alone does
13:04
not sow the seeds of new life.
13:07
Um, similarly, you.
13:11
You write, you do not fear. We do
13:14
not fear or demonize critical studies, nor do
13:16
we end in deconstruction alone.
13:19
Um, and I think. I feel like there's another quote. I can't
13:22
find it, about deconstructing not
13:25
being an end of itself. Um, talk
13:28
about how you all have.
13:31
Because, I mean, certainly. Right. We're in
13:34
a cultural context in a moment
13:37
where things like deconstruction, critical
13:40
theory, especially in more conservative spaces,
13:43
have been seen as, you know,
13:45
as horrific and problematic to
13:48
church and the faith. Um, how
13:51
have you all been able to find
13:54
some kind of balance or tension or
13:56
nuance? Yeah,
13:59
navigating that.
14:02
>> Andrew Draper: Well, I mean, first, we could say
14:05
that any
14:08
faith, uh, that does
14:10
not contain elements of
14:13
doubt is not
14:15
faith in the thickest sense of the term.
14:19
We're not looking for rational certainty
14:22
as believers.
14:23
>> Loren: Um.
14:25
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, I mean, the church
14:28
has always said that, historically, has
14:31
always said that the way we know about
14:34
God is because of God's revelation to us,
14:37
not because of our
14:41
apprehension of God in an empirical
14:44
sense. Right. Uh,
14:47
so if we are reliant on divine
14:49
revelation, then our knowledge is
14:52
limited. I mean the scriptures talk this way. We see through a glass
14:55
darkly.
14:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
14:57
>> Andrew Draper: The best we can know is
15:00
uh,
15:03
is a discombobulated
15:06
picture of the truth. Right. We, we don't have access
15:10
to all truth, uh, in an
15:12
epistemological way, in, in a way that we know.
15:15
We, we say that we believe
15:18
that there is one who is truth
15:21
and that the truth is revealed
15:24
to us by that one. So all
15:27
that to say that deconstruction is
15:30
necessary. It's always been a
15:32
part of the work that the people of God have done. I
15:35
mean from the Tower of Babel being
15:38
erected as a, ah, model
15:41
of um,
15:43
human productivity and
15:45
ingenuity,
15:47
uh, to wanting a
15:50
king instead of God
15:52
or uh, building a temple even
15:55
though the Lord said that he could not
15:59
be, uh, confined to a place built by human hands.
16:02
Right. The people of God have
16:05
always torn down things,
16:08
including within their own midst, have always torn down
16:11
false idols and false altars. That's
16:14
always been part of faith.
16:17
Uh, and if we can't look critically at our own
16:20
idols and the things
16:23
that we have built up that
16:26
uh, are problematic in our own theological
16:28
systems,
16:30
um, then we're not
16:33
participating in the
16:36
history of faith in a thick sense. We're, we're just kind of
16:39
slapping a veneer of
16:41
certainty onto some other kind of project. And,
16:44
and that's why it's so easy for
16:46
Christian nationalism or
16:49
um, secular humanism
16:52
to be where people land.
16:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
16:55
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, when they start to be
16:57
uncomfortable with
17:00
um, walking in the path of
17:02
uncertainty. So critical studies has been super
17:05
helpful. Um, you know,
17:08
we, we as moderns need
17:10
hermeneutic of suspicion if we're going to be led into all truth.
17:13
We need to be able to look at things
17:16
critically, including our own assumptions.
17:20
Um,
17:23
you know, so, so critical studies,
17:27
uh, you, you know, sometimes people just say well that's
17:29
Godless and Marxist.
17:31
>> Loren: Right.
17:32
>> Andrew Draper: But
17:35
you know,
17:39
any philosophy that looks
17:42
at
17:44
power structures and imbalance of power
17:47
and critiques it and
17:50
demonstrates uh,
17:53
how power corrupt.
17:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
17:56
>> Andrew Draper: Um is not an enemy of
17:58
faith, even if some of its
18:01
proponents at times are outwardly
18:05
atheistic or whatever the case might be.
18:07
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:08
>> Andrew Draper: Um, so, so I, I don't really
18:10
understand the. To
18:13
me it's more certainty and
18:16
fundamentalism that lead
18:19
to rejection of the faith than
18:23
some kind of
18:26
stance, uh, of, of critical,
18:30
uh, critical reflection.
18:32
>> Loren: Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I
18:35
know we have more to cover and this is not Primarily what the book
18:38
is. But I feel like this is an important point, at least
18:41
from my perspective, because I think
18:44
you're dead on about the two
18:47
extremes being like, one side
18:50
going all into Christian nationalism and
18:52
the other side going just all into secular
18:55
humanism. How,
18:58
how do you advise folks to kind of
19:01
walk the middle, hold the tension?
19:04
Whatever analogy we want to use there.
19:08
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah. For
19:10
me, what's been helpful is reading the church
19:13
mothers and fathers. M. A,
19:17
uh, because
19:21
many.
19:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
19:21
>> Andrew Draper: Especially the Eastern mothers and fathers do not fall
19:24
into the
19:27
bifurcated camps or silos
19:30
that we tend to think of today.
19:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
19:32
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, it cuts
19:35
the tradition of Christian faith. Cuts across the
19:38
ideological spectrum.
19:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:40
>> Andrew Draper: So A, I would say that. B,
19:44
the, uh, other thing that's been incredibly helpful for me
19:47
is listening, uh,
19:49
to. And reading
19:53
non, uh, white authors,
19:56
women, uh, and disabled
19:59
authors who
20:04
consistently talk about the need
20:06
for justice. M. And so,
20:09
um, I'm a fan of reading
20:12
liberation theology.
20:14
Um, obviously.
20:18
Um, just like I'm saying we don't take
20:21
anything on,
20:24
um, completely. There are
20:26
presuppositions in all different texts that I
20:29
might have some distance on.
20:32
Um, so don't, you know, I don't want people to hear
20:35
what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that
20:38
every single, I mean, liberation theology, for instance,
20:41
is such a broad.
20:42
>> Loren: Right.
20:43
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, category that to simply stand
20:46
back and go, oh, well, it's all kind of this
20:49
Marxist materialist mess is really
20:52
a misunderstanding of the holistic
20:55
points that many authors are working
20:58
to make. And so, you know, people like Gustavo
21:01
Gutierrez and James Cone.
21:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
21:03
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, alongside. And Nancy
21:06
Iseland from the disability, uh, liberation theology
21:09
perspective have been really important,
21:12
uh, in helping my faith become
21:15
more, uh, holistic and
21:18
broad.
21:20
>> Loren: Yeah, uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
21:24
Um, let's get into some of the
21:27
conversation about leadership in the book,
21:30
which I feel like we've been talking
21:32
about here. Around the. Beating around the bush here in some
21:35
ways because it's so essential, I think, to
21:39
the way of the structures of our current
21:42
society. Um, I'm trying to find some quotes here that
21:45
speak to this. Uh, you write for one, leading in the way
21:48
of Christ. You.
21:48
>> Andrew Draper: All right.
21:49
>> Loren: Leading in the way of Christ is not the domain of those who
21:52
are relevant, spectacular or powerful, but those
21:55
who experience being loved in weakness, being sent
21:58
in community, and being led in surprising ways. After all,
22:01
it's only in human weakness that God's power
22:04
is made known. Um, and then,
22:06
let's see, where's the disabling quote I wanted to
22:09
pull?
22:14
Disabling leadership means interrupting common
22:16
conceptions about what leadership is and how it
22:19
is practiced. So talk more about uh, this
22:22
disabling idea of leadership and leading in the way of
22:25
Christ.
22:27
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, so the first quote that you read
22:30
there is our summation of the work of
22:33
Henry Nouwen M. In his book in
22:35
the Name of Jesus. Uh, when he
22:38
talks about, he uses
22:41
the temptations of Jesus,
22:43
the uh, relevant, spectacular
22:46
and powerful, uh,
22:49
as.
22:52
>> Loren: Warnings, uh.
22:54
>> Andrew Draper: About the
22:57
trap of common
23:00
ways that we as modern Westerners think about
23:03
leadership being exercised. And
23:06
he grounds his
23:09
view of leadership
23:11
in who we are as the beloved of God,
23:14
in our identity. And particularly
23:17
because of his relationship with Bill Van
23:19
Buren and uh, other
23:22
disabled um, uh, siblings that he
23:25
ministered and lived and worked alongside
23:28
at um, the Daybreak community in
23:31
Toronto, which is part of large
23:34
um, international um organization.
23:37
So we draw from Henry
23:40
Nouwen quite uh, a
23:43
bit because
23:46
he's both calling into question
23:49
some of our modern leadership assumptions and
23:52
demonstrating how a uh,
23:54
diversity of abilities informs that
23:57
discussion.
23:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mm mhm.
23:59
>> Andrew Draper: Then second we, we also in the book look at
24:02
a lot of you know, kind of the canonical
24:05
leadership literature that. The stuff that's out there that people read
24:08
where they say, right, you know, that to be a leader
24:11
is first and foremost about the, you know,
24:14
the skills of the leader or the makeup of
24:17
the community, you know, in a way that,
24:20
that, that talks about skills or abilities.
24:22
>> Loren: Right.
24:23
>> Andrew Draper: You know, it tends to be grounded in
24:27
ideas of attributes. Right, right.
24:30
Like who are we as leaders? What are our
24:32
skills? How do we
24:35
um, contribute to the
24:38
process of leadership through uh,
24:41
productive and effective means.
24:43
>> Loren: Right. Born or made type thing, you
24:46
know.
24:47
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah. And we try to kind
24:50
of eschew that whole conversation
24:52
altogether. Not saying that there's nothing to be learned from it,
24:55
but we sort of look at that conversation
24:58
and we say, okay,
25:00
um, if, if it's not primarily
25:03
about skills or
25:06
attributes, um, and
25:09
it's not even primarily about who we are
25:12
in a uh, sort of
25:15
productivity, uh, oriented sense that
25:18
then what does leading look
25:21
like and what is leading in the way of Jesus look like? And we talk
25:23
about that being a faithful presence,
25:27
um, as we are
25:30
in limitations,
25:33
you know, I mean all through Scripture, right?
25:37
Limitation, uh, and weakness is seen
25:40
as a
25:43
picture of God's
25:46
very being. Um, we see that in
25:49
the incarnation, right, uh, that the
25:52
Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
25:55
um, not just to achieve victory in
25:58
a sort of Roman Empire kind of way,
26:01
but in a, in a. Laying
26:04
down one's life.
26:06
>> Loren: Right.
26:07
>> Andrew Draper: Um, likewise, Paul says it's in
26:10
our weakness, that we are made strong, that it's in our
26:12
limitation that the power of God is
26:15
most clearly seen. And
26:18
so if that's the case,
26:21
then it's not first
26:24
and foremost our strengths or
26:27
our abilities
26:29
that point to
26:32
who we are in a, uh,
26:34
theologically thick sense, but
26:37
who we are, are creatures of
26:40
God who are loved
26:43
by God and with all of our particularities,
26:45
uh, we are drawn up into the life of
26:48
God through the life of Jesus. And that takes place
26:51
in a community, a community of people who are different from
26:54
one another. And leadership
26:58
is not always exercised, or
27:00
perhaps maybe isn't even usually
27:02
exercised, um, most
27:05
fully in the body of Christ in the ways that we assume.
27:09
>> Loren: You know, I think something that comes
27:12
from this, that is so helpful
27:15
for pastors, for church leaders is what
27:18
you write here in the book you all write. Congregational
27:21
vitality cannot rest primarily on the
27:23
strengths of a particular leader. And I think this
27:26
stands in such stark contrast
27:29
to, I don't know, the
27:31
last, the early, certainly the first
27:34
20 years. Right. Of, I think, broadly
27:37
speaking American church
27:40
is that you need to have a dynamic
27:43
leader who will drive growth,
27:48
drive the attraction model.
27:51
>> Andrew Draper: Mhm.
27:52
>> Loren: And it's to me, when I read this,
27:55
I think, oh my goodness, what a gift.
27:58
And I think this is, broadly speaking, what is so often true
28:01
about. You talk about these
28:04
early on in the podcast, these different, uh,
28:08
theories and ideologies. They're often
28:11
such a gift. Like this disabling leadership concept
28:14
isn't not just a gift to those who might find themselves,
28:17
uh, you know, uh, in the disabled community. They're
28:20
often so often a gift to those who are not.
28:23
Because we're, we realize like the limitations
28:26
of ourselves and that we don't have to be
28:29
this superhuman type Persona.
28:32
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, well, I think that's a really
28:35
great point in that way. Disability
28:40
is a gift
28:43
to the church. It's a clear sign of the presence
28:46
of God. And I don't mean that in
28:48
a,
28:50
um, condescending
28:53
or tokenism. Um. Right. And I
28:56
don't mean that in an inspirational sense of
28:59
like, look how someone
29:02
with a disability has overcome it to the glory
29:05
of God. Which is how evangelicalism
29:08
often frames those kind of scenarios. You know, we
29:11
talk in the book about how people with disabilities, just like
29:14
anyone, are simply
29:16
human. Not to be pitied, not
29:19
to be heroes.
29:20
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:20
>> Andrew Draper: Um, that said,
29:25
by
29:28
when, when the eternal life of God is
29:31
made known, especially
29:35
in the midst of our profound limitations,
29:40
we more easily see that the work is God's
29:43
and not our own. When
29:46
we have an Idea that somehow we
29:49
can adhere to the mythology of the self made man
29:52
or woman. Right.
29:53
Uh, that
29:56
creates the kind of.
30:00
>> Loren: Celebrity.
30:00
>> Andrew Draper: Um, Christianity that you're talking about, you
30:03
know, um, where there's
30:06
a powerful, gifted, dynamic person
30:09
on a stage.
30:10
>> Loren: Right.
30:11
>> Andrew Draper: That people are drawn to. But
30:14
we've seen in the last decades that
30:17
that often does not translate into
30:20
maturity, deep character, a
30:23
whole life. Right. Sometimes the higher they
30:26
are, the bigger the pedestal, the
30:29
more harmful, uh, is the fall.
30:32
>> Loren: Right.
30:32
>> Andrew Draper: Um, you know, when we start to
30:35
believe our press and
30:38
uh, get, you know, get too
30:41
big for our britches, as my dad would have said years ago,
30:43
you know, we start to,
30:46
um, we start to
30:49
subvert the work of God. And
30:54
that's why again,
30:57
there's so much in the kind of
31:00
attractional church growth,
31:04
uh, model M that you mentioned that has
31:06
contributed to that. But I think also
31:09
today we see there's also this whole sphere
31:12
of sometimes folks in the
31:14
deconstructive or exvangelical
31:17
spheres who, who
31:20
rail against all of that while
31:22
still carrying over
31:25
from it the sense of being the guru
31:28
or the, the expert that should be
31:31
listened to. Yes, we saw that in the whole Joshua
31:34
Harris thing. Right. From I Kiss Dating Goodbye to like
31:37
now I can sell you my deconstruction curriculum. You
31:40
know, um, you know, we're
31:42
disability cuts across all of that. It just says we're not
31:45
interested in that whole game. Uh, I'm not
31:48
interested right. In, in everything
31:51
about my appearance on
31:54
this podcast with you or my
31:57
personage with anybody
31:59
being,
32:01
uh, something, uh,
32:04
that it's not. Right.
32:07
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is good. Um, as much as
32:10
I want to continue down this road, let's shift
32:13
gears here to more practical. And I think one
32:16
of the things again that I appreciate about the book was
32:19
the philosophical that you all really, I think, have
32:22
so much richness and depth as we just talked about. But I think
32:25
there's also a lot of practical, really
32:28
practical, uh, stuff that helps. So,
32:31
um, I'm going to, again, I keep going to quotes
32:34
here because there are so many good quotes here that I thought. So you talk
32:37
about why a church's practices
32:40
represent its beliefs and commitments. And I
32:43
think this is really good. Like I'm
32:46
preaching monthly at a church and I tried to preach a very
32:49
similar message. Like, you know, we,
32:52
this church, broadly speaking, the denomination, all
32:55
that tries to convey a message of,
32:58
you know, inclusion and welcome. Yet the people
33:01
we claim to include and welcome are not here. So where's the
33:04
disconnect? Right, right, right.
33:07
Whether in, let me read this quote. Whether in
33:10
government or church or family, we proclaim our vision
33:13
of what our community should be by whom we
33:16
include or exclude. Lack of access
33:19
and lack of representation are mutually
33:22
reinforcing realities. It will take courageous action on
33:25
the part of the body Christ to live into the
33:27
reality of who we are. So talk
33:30
more about the disconnect between, you know,
33:33
beliefs and then what is actually practiced.
33:36
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, yeah. Well I'm glad
33:39
that you brought that up because let me say first our local church in
33:42
Muncie, Indiana, Urban Light, uh, is
33:45
not a picture perfect
33:47
example of inclusion. I mean we
33:50
have uh, a long way to
33:53
go in many areas. What we are
33:56
doing is thinking
33:59
through the ramifications of our
34:02
confession and
34:04
the, the um,
34:08
the broadness
34:11
of our local church
34:14
makeup, including our leaders,
34:18
um, so that
34:21
we can
34:24
offer
34:27
practices in an experimenting kind of way
34:30
for the body of Christ. We're not saying we have the corner
34:32
market on what it means to be inclusive. What
34:35
we are saying is here are the issues at
34:38
play and the practical realities of what we need to
34:41
be thinking about. And so I think your point is exactly right.
34:44
That oftentimes the disconnect between what we
34:46
proclaim and the reality in our own midst might be
34:49
broad. And I would just
34:52
encourage churches not to grow
34:54
weary or disheartened in that.
34:57
Um, you know,
34:59
keep proclaiming what should be even
35:02
when what should be is not in your own midst.
35:06
Um, at the
35:09
same time I would say
35:11
we always need to be careful.
35:15
Spiritual ah, pride is one of the worst,
35:19
uh, one of the worst sicknesses
35:22
the church can have. And
35:26
what I mentioned earlier about the certainty that can
35:29
sometimes, you know,
35:32
often infected the,
35:35
the kind of conservative roots that I
35:38
grew up in also can infect the
35:41
more progressive, justice oriented
35:43
congregations who are sort of like we get it and no one
35:46
else gets it.
35:47
>> Loren: Right.
35:48
>> Andrew Draper: Right. While at the same time the makeup
35:50
of the church and who is
35:53
actually involved in leading may not reflect
35:56
the diversity of the body of Christ.
35:59
Um, for instance
36:02
when Jody preaches.
36:04
>> Loren: Mhm.
36:05
>> Andrew Draper: She uh, asks someone, uh, often me
36:07
or someone else in the church to help her
36:10
communicate because of her speech, uh
36:12
impediment. She's a wonderful preacher, a
36:15
wonderful exegete of scripture.
36:18
Um and at the same
36:21
time we are very well
36:24
aware of that there are churches that value
36:26
being slick in a way that
36:29
just don't have the time for that sort of
36:32
practice.
36:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:34
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, Andrea's
36:36
uh, daughter Shiloh, uh has
36:39
down syndrome and uh, often
36:42
engages in worship through uh,
36:45
loud vocalizations or
36:47
movements that
36:49
um, can easily draw
36:52
people's Attention. And
36:55
we, uh, try to
36:58
uh, talk about and include
37:01
those various expressions of worship in ways that
37:04
say, hey, this is what it means to
37:07
be the church and to worship with all that we are.
37:10
Um, you know, and so
37:14
true diversity is always going to be uncomfortable.
37:17
>> Loren: Right?
37:18
>> Andrew Draper: Um, you know, you're, you,
37:23
it's, it's hard to stay
37:26
on certain ideological lines, uh,
37:29
on, on either side or, or
37:31
to, um, to have a real
37:34
slick Sunday, uh, service
37:37
if you truly have a diversity
37:40
of expressions and people
37:42
groups who are contributing,
37:45
uh, to that time together. And
37:48
so I agree with you. Just
37:51
like there are very conservative,
37:53
legalistic congregations that are super homogenous.
37:56
There's also justice minded,
37:59
progressive congregations that are super
38:02
homogenous. And we always have
38:05
to do the hard, practical
38:07
work to break down those walls. And it
38:10
will be uncomfortable. Yeah, it'll be, it'll
38:13
be messy. Um, and it's
38:15
probably hard to do sometimes on a real large
38:18
scale.
38:19
>> Loren: Let's stay on this point if I may, because
38:23
I mean, I think A, what you just said there is important.
38:25
It's, it's hard to do on a large scale.
38:28
So like popping out a bunch of
38:31
Insta church plants with 400
38:33
people, you know, in a month or two, that's gonna be
38:36
hard. But B, like, you talk about
38:39
this true diversity always being uncomfortable. As
38:42
I wrote it down, you know, you talk about your church, Urban
38:45
Light, thinking through the ramifications of your
38:48
confession. How do you,
38:50
as you know, obviously not just you, but
38:53
your pastoral staff, your volunteer leadership, the lay
38:56
leadership said, how do you all guide your.
38:59
Because I'm, I gotta imagine you prob. Had this
39:01
conversation. Someone on your staff, your lady of leadership,
39:04
has had this conversation with someone who's like, hey,
39:07
can we take a break? Like, can we just chill
39:10
out for a little bit? That kind of thing.
39:12
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah.
39:13
>> Loren: How do you, how do you guide that?
39:17
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, it's complex. I mean, that's why it's important to
39:20
have a diversity of people at those
39:22
conversations, um, so that it doesn't become
39:25
paternalistic or doesn't become something that
39:28
a congregation is doing on behalf of people
39:31
without including those people who are most
39:34
affected by those decisions. So, you know,
39:37
for instance, one
39:39
great practical step
39:42
is simply to ask people
39:45
what they need or what the
39:48
church community needs
39:51
to more fully include them
39:54
and to have honest conversations about those kind of things
39:58
across racial lines. You're going to hear things about music
40:01
and preaching and worship and
40:04
theology that
40:07
the church needs to be responsive to
40:12
within communities where there is a diversity of
40:15
abilities. You're Going to hear things about
40:18
transportation.
40:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
40:20
>> Andrew Draper: About sensory spaces,
40:24
about electronic documents that
40:27
can be read
40:30
in an audi. Auditory, uh,
40:33
fashion. Uh, um, you're going
40:36
to hear about, um,
40:38
elevators.
40:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
40:40
>> Andrew Draper: You're going to hear about automatic doors.
40:43
You're going to hear about bathroom
40:45
stalls.
40:47
Um, you're going to hear about, about
40:50
uh, uh, the ways
40:52
meals are served.
40:56
Um, you're going to hear about
40:59
volume.
40:59
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:02
>> Andrew Draper: I mean on and on and on. If, if you're
41:04
truly paying attention.
41:08
You know, I hear churches sometimes say things like, well,
41:11
we don't need an elevator because nobody in a
41:14
wheelchair comes. Well,
41:17
that's exactly right. Right. That is kind of a self fulfilling
41:20
prophecy. Or in our town,
41:23
um, public accessible
41:27
transportation runs through the week,
41:30
but public transportation does not run on Sundays for
41:33
instance.
41:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
41:34
>> Andrew Draper: And so just little things like we bought an
41:37
accessible bus that was used from our local
41:40
bus company to be able to go around and pick people up
41:43
on Sundays. Because oftentimes people who
41:46
need accessible transportation are isolated,
41:49
uh, either on the weekends or in evenings
41:52
or isolated from being able to spend time in other
41:55
congregants homes or maybe can't even
41:58
get to church. Um, and then
42:01
once people get there, is there a
42:03
way for them to enter? So yes,
42:06
we're thinking about physical accommodations, but we're also
42:09
thinking about accommodations in terms of
42:12
visual, uh, and auditory. And when we have
42:15
Spanish speakers, you know, we're working on
42:18
translations and I mean
42:21
no church can, can perfectly
42:25
tackle each one of these dynamics, but we can
42:28
constantly be growing, we can constantly be
42:31
responding to the, to the real people
42:34
in front of us and learning
42:37
from resources like this book and
42:40
other disability studies
42:43
books. Um, you know, so that we're
42:46
not just putting everything back on disabled people to do
42:49
the work of education.
42:50
>> Loren: Right.
42:51
>> Andrew Draper: But that we're responding to real
42:54
people so that the body of Christ can look more
42:56
like the kingdom of God and can be a more full
42:59
experience of Christ
43:02
church.
43:03
>> Loren: Yeah. And I think that's one thing I for sure
43:06
appreciated about the book too was it wasn't
43:09
like, as I read it, it wasn't like judgy in
43:12
your faith, like in your face, you got to do this or you're horrible. It's
43:14
like, hey, let's keep taking steps.
43:17
I feel like you all are encouraging people take the next
43:20
step, uh, to be more welcoming and
43:23
inclusive.
43:26
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, yeah, because then we also recognize where we get it wrong.
43:29
Right. I mean we share some of those stories
43:32
in the book. You know, we open the book with one of the
43:35
stories where I'm, you Know, rightfully so, not seen in
43:38
a real positive light, you know,
43:41
um, because I was thinking, hey, look how inclusive we are
43:44
that we have removed some pews and have some
43:47
disability sections and you know, right
43:49
away learning how quickly
43:52
that was reinforcing segregation, uh, in
43:55
the church and cutting down on
43:57
options for people with physical
44:00
limitations or uh, uh, accommodation
44:03
needs in regard to transportation.
44:05
>> Loren: Let's talk about that before we take a break. I want to
44:08
ask about. Because you all write in the book about
44:11
the physicality of spiritual disciplines.
44:14
Uh, I'm thinking
44:17
receiving communion for me is something that
44:20
is for some reason in my life.
44:23
Uh, I hope it always this way. But for where I am
44:26
right now, coming forward,
44:29
putting out my hands just makes me
44:32
weak in the knees. When the pastor
44:34
extends to me, this is the body of Christ broken for
44:37
you.
44:41
Like I said, it really just impacts me.
44:44
That's something that may or may not be possible
44:47
for folks. And I'm thinking of so many other
44:50
spiritual practices
44:53
that can take place in a worship service or in the
44:56
life of faith. How do you
44:58
all, uh, balance that? How do you all navigate
45:02
those things?
45:04
>> Andrew Draper: Mhm. That's great.
45:07
So we've tried to.
45:10
Let's use communion as an example.
45:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
45:13
>> Andrew Draper: The way you're talking about communion being served from a common
45:16
cup is what we've really
45:18
valued.
45:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
45:20
>> Andrew Draper: In our congregation while at the same, you know, because we
45:23
don't want those little individual kind of shot
45:26
glass things. Right. That talk about us as sort of,
45:29
you know, our own individual salvation.
45:31
>> Loren: But not especially like the plastic ones. You have to like crinkle
45:34
open and such.
45:35
>> Andrew Draper: Right, exactly. With the little wafer on
45:37
top. Sometimes that's packaged in it.
45:40
But so what we've done is, um,
45:43
because our sanctuary has
45:45
um,
45:47
different levels, uh, and
45:50
spaces in it, we've
45:53
ensured that a people with
45:55
wheelchairs, uh, can make it to
45:58
every point of the sanctuary in different
46:01
ways. We set up several different
46:03
communion stations,
46:06
um, for people to be able to receive.
46:09
Um, we have four communion stations on
46:12
a Sunday. One in the balcony, two on the sides
46:15
and one down front, um, so that people
46:18
in different areas can come get it. For those
46:20
who, um, uh, need assistance,
46:23
we will bring the elements to
46:26
them. Um, but then we also ensure that people with
46:29
disabilities are involved in leading and serving
46:32
communion.
46:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
46:34
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, so that it's not, you
46:36
know.
46:37
>> Loren: Receiving uh.
46:40
>> Andrew Draper: The body of Christ, uh, in
46:42
a unidirectional, ah, sort of way.
46:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
46:46
>> Andrew Draper: But we ensure that there's a diversity of people on a
46:48
rotation who are involved in Leading
46:51
communion or serving communion.
46:53
>> Loren: Right.
46:54
>> Andrew Draper: Um, and then there's, there's as you
46:57
mentioned, the physicality of spiritual disciplines. I
47:00
mean our postures of
47:03
worship, our
47:05
um, the way we vocalize,
47:10
ah, having
47:12
um, a low sensory
47:16
room in the back of the sanctuary where people
47:18
maybe who uh, are autistic
47:21
or um, uh, have
47:24
sensory uh, needs can
47:27
uh, get away for a little bit.
47:29
Um, it's not uncommon in our
47:32
service for people to get up and move
47:35
around at different points. We have a, a greeting
47:38
time in the middle where we pass the peace of Christ.
47:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
47:41
>> Andrew Draper: And in some ways it's kind of like the seventh inning stretch before the
47:44
message, you know, where, you know, people hit the,
47:47
hit the bathroom and grab a coffee or whatever.
47:50
And it is kind of. It can be awkward, right? It can be
47:52
awkward, stand up, move around,
47:56
in and out. Um, it doesn't make
47:59
for, you know, like great TV production
48:01
necessarily, but, but
48:04
it does lend itself to
48:07
uh, experiencing the diversity of the body.
48:10
>> Loren: I suppose it gets back to, I feel like something
48:13
we've talked about of that kind of like cookie
48:16
cutter attractional model of
48:19
church where it's like the dim lights and
48:21
the excellent worship band
48:24
and the streamlined
48:27
35 minute or 45 minute,
48:30
you know, sermon message. Like
48:33
you've kind of just got to be able to let go both, I
48:35
imagine the pastor, the church
48:38
leadership and the Karnians themselves. Like the people in
48:41
the pews, so to speak, have got to be okay with
48:43
like this is all good. Like if we're
48:46
singing on key, if someone's
48:49
making noises that don't feel
48:52
like it's all part of the worship. Right. Like
48:55
that's the shift.
48:56
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
48:59
it's interesting because, you know,
49:02
we do want to, in our areas
49:05
of giftedness, uh,
49:08
do the best that we can.
49:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
49:10
>> Andrew Draper: Um,
49:13
and by that I mean even pursuing
49:15
excellence, say musically or in preaching
49:18
or.
49:19
>> Loren: Um.
49:20
>> Andrew Draper: But some of it is simply
49:22
teaching and redefining
49:25
what some of those things mean.
49:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:28
>> Andrew Draper: Um,
49:31
for instance, you mentioned the 45
49:34
minute sermon that's kind
49:37
of slickly organized and done
49:40
and there's maybe the visuals and the
49:42
outline and the whole thing. I'm not saying there's anything
49:45
inherently wrong with that. Although
49:49
what I would say is if, if the
49:51
majority of your preaching at a local church
49:54
is one
49:57
particular person every single Sunday, who's doing
50:00
that similar kind of thing.
50:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
50:02
>> Andrew Draper: Um, you're limiting what the
50:05
body of Christ is experiencing. Um.
50:08
M. You know, and as we know a lot of
50:10
larger churches who do that sort of Thing,
50:13
uh, even are buying
50:16
sermon outlines and curriculum now. I mean, that's not
50:19
a unheard of thing for the
50:22
sermon series to be pre
50:24
written, uh, and kind
50:27
of brought in.
50:28
Um, so
50:33
I guess that's what's hard about it
50:36
is
50:39
you want to bring your whole self and that
50:41
includes your skills and abilities.
50:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
50:44
>> Andrew Draper: While at the same time recognizing that there is a diversity
50:47
of gifts in the body.
50:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:50
>> Andrew Draper: And a diversity of ways of experiencing that. You know, you
50:52
mentioned lighting, for instance.
50:55
Um, you know,
50:57
darker lighting, as is the
51:00
case in many churches
51:03
nowadays, might contribute to more
51:05
of a feeling of immediacy between the
51:08
individual and their experience.
51:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
51:12
>> Andrew Draper: Of God or emotional experience or whatever in that
51:15
moment. Um,
51:18
and may make people feel more free.
51:21
But we also have to realize that another thing that it does is
51:23
it draws all attention up to a stage.
51:26
>> Loren: Right.
51:26
>> Andrew Draper: It draws attention away from the body
51:29
as the lights are dark and you can't see the body
51:32
of Christ around you. It draws attention
51:35
away from the community.
51:37
>> Loren: Yep.
51:38
>> Andrew Draper: Um, and then it also provides a hazard for
51:41
people who maybe, um,
51:43
uh, are in wheelchairs or
51:46
who may, uh, have visual
51:49
impairments. M. Or whatever the case might
51:51
be. Um, you know,
51:54
darkness is not ideal
51:57
for the constitution of the body of Christ or the experience
52:00
of many people with disabilities.
52:02
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, uh, there's so much good stuff.
52:05
I really recommend the book Disabling
52:08
A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of
52:11
Christ co, uh, written by our guests today,
52:14
Nandra Draper, Jodi Michel and Andrea May.
52:17
Encourage folks to check it out. Let's take a quick break
52:20
and we'll come back with some closing questions.
52:25
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper.
52:28
So thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate the
52:31
conversation. I always tell folks these
52:34
closing questions, you're welcome to take some of them as
52:37
seriously or not as you'd like to.
52:40
So, you know, don't get too tripped up
52:43
on. If, uh, you're Pope for a day,
52:46
what, uh, do you want to do, serious or not, with that day?
52:52
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, first, if I'm Pope for a day,
52:55
I don't know if a Pope could unilaterally push this through.
52:58
But take seriously the conversation on women in
53:01
ministry. I think would be one, that would be
53:03
really important.
53:06
Um,
53:08
two, uh, think through.
53:11
I guess by being Pope, I would be Roman Catholic,
53:14
so think through. How can, how could I have a
53:17
more encourage, uh, a more
53:20
inclusive, uh, eucharistic table.
53:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
53:23
>> Andrew Draper: Um,
53:30
try, uh, to think carefully through how
53:33
can the experience of the universal body of
53:35
Christ be more representative
53:38
of um,
53:41
people in, in non Western countries.
53:43
>> Loren: Yeah.
53:44
>> Andrew Draper: And I, because obviously the, the
53:47
church,
53:48
um, just numerically
53:51
is not primarily
53:54
Western. Although, uh,
53:57
in, in, in many ways
54:00
leadership, uh, of, of many of
54:03
our denominational or
54:06
theological traditions does um,
54:09
not always reflect that.
54:10
>> Loren: Right, right. Yeah, that's good.
54:13
Um, a theologian or Christian historical
54:16
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
54:19
>> Andrew Draper: Oh, wow.
54:24
Oh, there's so many.
54:27
I would love to meet
54:30
Julian of Norwich Camp,
54:35
Talk to her about her experience of
54:39
having visions of Christ and
54:43
all things being made new and right.
54:46
Um, in the midst of suffering and pain. Um, I would
54:49
love to talk with her about that.
54:51
Um,
54:54
I'd love to, uh, chat with Karl
54:57
Bart. He was such a character.
55:01
Uh, I'd also like to ask him some questions about
55:04
how in the world he justified his relationship with
55:06
Charlotte von Kirschbaum.
55:09
Um, but that would be really interesting is to talk
55:12
to Karl Barth.
55:13
Um,
55:16
Gustavo Gutierrez passed away recently and I always
55:19
wished I had gotten to meet him.
55:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
55:24
>> Andrew Draper: Um, yeah, there's so
55:27
many. Maybe
55:29
someday, um, in the new
55:32
heaven and new earth,
55:35
uh, with the resurrection of the body and the communion of
55:38
saints, we can have some of those chats.
55:40
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
55:45
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but you know, I think because
55:48
Juliana Vorwitch, if I'm remembering correctly, she's known for the
55:51
all will be well. Yeah,
55:53
right.
55:54
>> Andrew Draper: Yep.
55:57
Yeah. She had this series of visions.
56:01
She had asked the Lord for a
56:04
sickness leading unto death that would allow her to experience
56:07
Christ's passion. And.
56:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
56:09
>> Andrew Draper: She got deathly ill and had these, had these visions
56:12
that she recorded, um, after
56:15
she got better. And um,
56:18
in one of them she was really struggling with the problem of
56:21
evil and just kind of going, lord, how
56:24
why did there have to be sin? Why did there have to be evil?
56:27
Like.
56:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
56:28
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, you know, what's going on with that? Wouldn't it have
56:31
been better if that had never been the case?
56:34
>> Loren: Right.
56:34
>> Andrew Draper: And,
56:37
and she doesn't get an
56:40
answer as, as far
56:43
as why, as much as the
56:45
assurance that all
56:48
shall be well and all shall be well
56:51
and all manner of things shall be well.
56:54
I think the quote is something along the lines of
56:57
that, um,
57:00
that sin was necessary, but
57:04
that when all
57:07
things are restored and all is made new,
57:10
that
57:13
basically that uh, our understanding
57:15
of what is wrong with the world will
57:18
pale in comparison to what has been made.
57:21
Right.
57:22
>> Loren: Okay, I've got to ask this and we're, I'm getting off track here
57:25
and we're running out of Time, so don't go
57:28
too long. But I gotta ask and I just, I'm thinking about
57:31
the current context recording this on November
57:33
15th. So much, so much of our
57:36
nation is. I, uh, mean
57:39
there's so many folks who voted a certain way
57:42
in the election that are very
57:45
disheartened and disillusioned. And I'm thinking, because I'm
57:47
literally preaching this Sunday a message that I wrote
57:51
before November 5,
57:53
um, on the idea that
57:56
like God is in control, God is God.
57:59
Which seems trite in some ways, but also
58:02
how, I mean, what is your,
58:06
I don't know, pastorally,
58:09
theologically, how do you convey to folks who are
58:12
like, all will not be well, you know,
58:15
God is not in control, or if God is in control, this is
58:18
awful type scenario. Like, I don't know if that makes
58:21
any sense.
58:22
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, that does make sense. So one, theologically I'd
58:25
say all will be well and God is in control are
58:27
two different statements.
58:29
>> Loren: Okay.
58:30
>> Andrew Draper: Um, all will be well
58:32
is a
58:35
recognition that God
58:38
will weave together all the disparate strands of
58:40
history, all the mess, all the sin, all the
58:43
everything into
58:46
something beautiful in the end. That death
58:49
will be defeated, sin will be
58:52
defeated, and all will be made.
58:54
Right. That's a different
58:57
statement than God is in control. What do
59:00
I mean by that?
59:01
>> Loren: At least broadly speaking, Control as in like
59:04
pulling the strings control.
59:05
>> Andrew Draper: Right, yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
59:08
I guess I'm thinking more of the view of sovereignty that
59:11
some people popularly use where they say like, you know,
59:13
everything happens for a reason.
59:15
>> Loren: Right. I don't want to.
59:18
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah. And I know you're not saying that, but I'm just more
59:21
talking to people out there who might sort of think
59:24
that control means sovereignty in
59:27
the sense that.
59:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
59:29
>> Andrew Draper: Uh, you know, there is a strong
59:32
kind of determinism that God, that we're just sort of
59:35
puppets on a string and God's just kind of
59:37
making everything happen for his greater glory.
59:40
And I think we have to just
59:43
admit some uncertainty in these
59:46
regards. Right. Like, I'm definitely
59:49
not going to commit to a strong deterministic
59:52
view, nor am I going to commit to a strong kind of open
59:55
theist view because I feel like either of those extremes
59:58
sort of presume on what we can know about
1:00:00
God.
1:00:01
>> Loren: Right, right.
1:00:03
>> Andrew Draper: So instead I'm just sort of making the
1:00:06
observation that the kingdom of
1:00:08
God is not the kingdom of this
1:00:11
world. That
1:00:14
doesn't mean that we shouldn't work for justice within the
1:00:17
kingdoms of this world. We should. And so I get
1:00:21
is very Fair for people to say right now
1:00:24
the world does not feel like good
1:00:27
is winning. This is awful. I am
1:00:30
in the middle of pain,
1:00:32
marginalization, oppression, whatever the case might be,
1:00:35
and we need to resist it. I'm on board with
1:00:38
that. At the same time recognizing
1:00:41
that we can't by our own strength,
1:00:44
bring the kingdom of God into being. Right. Like it
1:00:47
is. Jesus teaches us to pray, your
1:00:49
kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
1:00:52
So, yes, we are co heirs with Christ, co
1:00:55
laborers with God. Uh,
1:00:58
I'm not talking about a sort of, you know,
1:01:01
escapism here where we just go, oh, the world's going to burn and
1:01:04
we're going to wait for the sweet bye and bye. I
1:01:07
am talking about being engaged in making this
1:01:10
world a better place, at the same time realizing
1:01:13
that all of our activity falls short and
1:01:16
it's only God who can actually bring new life out of
1:01:18
nothing. It's only God who creates
1:01:21
ex nihilo. Right. And
1:01:24
so. And so that's the kind of the way
1:01:27
I would temper those statements is yes, God
1:01:30
is in control. If by that we mean God will bring
1:01:33
history to its proper end at the proper time in
1:01:36
a way that good and love win.
1:01:39
>> Loren: Right. And you're saying, like, you're
1:01:42
thinking of control as in the weaving together,
1:01:45
of making good out of the
1:01:48
brokenness. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah.
1:01:50
>> Andrew Draper: Well, yeah, kind of the idea of like all things working together
1:01:53
for good or.
1:01:55
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good because I'm going to include this in my sermon
1:01:58
in this, Julian.
1:02:03
Well, because I think. I think, you know, we're. I'm
1:02:06
off track here, but I think this is the, the
1:02:09
nuance, the balance that I think is so hard because you're right,
1:02:12
it does. It does tend to.
1:02:15
It does tend to. To flow into those
1:02:20
spectrums.
1:02:21
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah.
1:02:22
>> Loren: Of. Well, if God is control,
1:02:25
that means everything is deterministic. And, you know,
1:02:27
why is that? And then
1:02:30
certainly I'm. I'm very familiar with the open theism and the
1:02:33
process theology. And,
1:02:36
uh, there's some things that I'm just. I
1:02:39
don't know that that leads me dissatisfied too.
1:02:41
Um, so I think the theme of this book
1:02:45
and Yalls work has been
1:02:47
nuance and balance and tension. So
1:02:50
I'm. I'm appreciating that tension.
1:02:52
>> Andrew Draper: There is a lot of that in it. Right.
1:02:54
>> Loren: And balance throughout all of this. Well,
1:02:56
share, if you would, here how folks can
1:02:59
connect with you, all the church, you know, the
1:03:02
authors, all that stuff.
1:03:05
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, great. Um,
1:03:08
so there are multiple ways to connect with us.
1:03:11
Um, first you can connect with the book on
1:03:14
obviously Amazon or
1:03:16
ivp. Um, Academic
1:03:18
is the publisher.
1:03:21
Um, on
1:03:24
Amazon, you can also get,
1:03:25
um, accessible
1:03:28
versions that are electronically
1:03:31
readable.
1:03:32
Um, as far as
1:03:35
connecting with us personally,
1:03:37
um, we each have
1:03:40
active Facebook pages and
1:03:43
uh, X accounts, although I don't know
1:03:46
how long X is kind of a
1:03:49
dumpster fire right now.
1:03:51
Um, I mean, it's blue sky as.
1:03:53
>> Loren: We'Re talking, I guess is the thing.
1:03:55
>> Andrew Draper: Yeah, I don't even know. It's hard for me to stay up with it
1:03:58
all. Um, we, uh, each have
1:04:01
blogs. Um, you can
1:04:03
find mine, uh,
1:04:06
@AndrewtDraper.com I
1:04:09
think is what it is. You can find our church,
1:04:10
urbanlightmonsy.com
1:04:13
um, Jody and Andrea both have blogs. And I'm,
1:04:16
I'm, I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to remember the,
1:04:18
the, uh, the web addresses right now
1:04:21
for those. But if you connect with us on, on Facebook,
1:04:24
Jody, Michelle or Andrea May,
1:04:27
uh, we can, you know, get you connected.
1:04:30
Um, you can go through our church
1:04:33
website. Uh, there, there are multiple ways to get a
1:04:36
hold of us. Um, I'm also, like I said, on staff
1:04:38
at Weinbrenner Seminary in Findlay,
1:04:41
Ohio. We, um,
1:04:45
uh, offer, um, really, um,
1:04:48
flexible, uh, accessible and affordable
1:04:51
accredited, uh, education.
1:04:54
You can get a hold of me through our website, mindbrenner.
1:04:57
Edu.
1:04:59
Um, and yeah, we'd love to have
1:05:02
continued conversations with you.
1:05:03
>> Loren: Yeah, well, I appreciate, really appreciate this
1:05:06
conversation, really appreciate the book. So thank you
1:05:09
to yourself and um,
1:05:12
Jody and Andrea for their contributions here.
1:05:15
So always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
1:05:17
God's peace be with you.
1:05:19
>> Andrew Draper: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
1:05:29
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:05:32
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:05:35
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1:05:37
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1:05:40
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