Latest / Something Extra / Your Path to Financial Clarity w/ Anne Lester

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Your Path to Financial Clarity w/ Anne Lester · Something Extra

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1:44
Lisa Nichols: I'm delighted to have Anne Lester on the show today.
1:47
Lisa Nichols: Anne is a speaker, author, and money mentor.
1:50
Lisa Nichols: Well, Anne, I am so excited about being with you today, and
1:54
Lisa Nichols: thank you so much for agreeing to to join me on the Something Extra
1:58
Lisa Nichols: podcast.
1:58
Anne Lester: Well, I'm thrilled to be here, and I don't know that I I have,
2:02
Anne Lester: I have many extra things to talk about.
2:04
Anne Lester: So we'll see how this goes.
2:05
Lisa Nichols: It's gonna be great.
2:07
Lisa Nichols: It is gonna be great.
2:09
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
2:09
Lisa Nichols: And our mutual friend, Joe Sinkowski, is the one that
2:13
Lisa Nichols: connected us, and I'm really grateful to him for that.
2:17
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
2:18
Lisa Nichols: But let's let's kinda go back because there's so much to you.
2:21
Lisa Nichols: I wanna talk about your illustrious career at JPMorgan, and I especially
2:25
Lisa Nichols: wanna talk about what you're doing today because you're very, very passionate about helping
2:29
Lisa Nichols: Gen z and, Gen z's and the millennials.
2:33
Lisa Nichols: Right?
2:33
Anne Lester: Yep.
2:34
Lisa Nichols: And anyone, truly.
2:35
Lisa Nichols: You and I just had an offline conversation.
2:37
Lisa Nichols: And, Anne's book, Your Best Safe
2:41
Lisa Nichols: Smart Now for the Future You Want.
2:45
Lisa Nichols: I love that subtitle.
2:46
Lisa Nichols: I love that subtitle.
2:48
Lisa Nichols: And, I know you're just very passionate, but you and I were just talking
2:51
Lisa Nichols: offline.
2:52
Lisa Nichols: And, truly, your principles and the things that you talk about in your book,
2:56
Lisa Nichols: really, you said anyone over the age of sixteen.
2:59
Anne Lester: Absolutely.
3:00
Anne Lester: Absolutely.
3:00
Anne Lester: And even if you're older than a millennial, if you're Gen Xer or a
3:03
Anne Lester: a boomer even, I think there are things you can always learn
3:06
Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
3:07
Lisa Nichols: To
3:08
Anne Lester: do a better job of aligning what you want to be happening with your
3:11
Anne Lester: money with what you're actually doing with your money, and that's, I think, where
3:14
Anne Lester: the big slip happens for a lot of people.
3:16
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
3:17
Lisa Nichols: Well, I can't wait.
3:18
Lisa Nichols: I'm we're gonna dig into all of that, but I know that you grew
3:21
Lisa Nichols: up in Hawaii.
3:22
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
3:23
Lisa Nichols: A terrible place to have to grow up.
3:25
Lisa Nichols: Right?
3:26
Anne Lester: Well, you know, it's funny.
3:27
Anne Lester: People I would just have this conversation with somebody a little while ago now.
3:30
Anne Lester: Like, wasn't that amazing?
3:31
Anne Lester: And I'm like, you know, when you grow up somewhere, it's just it's just
3:34
Anne Lester: where you grow up.
3:35
Anne Lester: Right?
3:35
Anne Lester: I took for granted, that we had papaya trees and banana trees in our
3:39
Anne Lester: backyard, and our neighbors had a mango tree, and, like, that was just normal.
3:44
Anne Lester: And I was thinking about this today at lunch because we're still getting really
3:47
Anne Lester: good Jersey peaches in.
3:48
Anne Lester: I live in New Jersey now, and, I had a gorgeous peach for lunch.
3:51
Anne Lester: And I ate my first ripe fresh peach when I was sixteen.
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Anne Lester: I've never had one before.
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Anne Lester: They were exotic.
3:59
Anne Lester: Oh my goodness.
4:00
Anne Lester: When I was growing up in the sixties and seventies, it all came over
4:03
Anne Lester: on in boats.
4:04
Anne Lester: And a peach does not last across the Pacific Ocean in a container.
4:07
Anne Lester: You know?
4:07
Lisa Nichols: Right.
4:08
Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
4:09
Lisa Nichols: But you did have coconuts, and you did have pineapple.
4:12
Anne Lester: I had all of this.
4:14
Anne Lester: You know, I did.
4:15
Anne Lester: And and I they're just normal.
4:18
Anne Lester: You don't you know, when you're a kid, you just don't understand how special
4:21
Anne Lester: it is.
4:21
Anne Lester: You just think everybody around you is living and, you know, maybe that's different
4:24
Anne Lester: today with social media and, you know, we're also hyperaware of everybody else around
4:28
Anne Lester: us and standards of living.
4:30
Anne Lester: And, actually, that's that's a problem for, I think, people, especially young people,
4:35
Anne Lester: because it's so easy to compare how you're doing to other people.
4:37
Anne Lester: But certainly when I was growing up, that that was our world.
4:40
Anne Lester: And I still remember, seeing I don't know if you remember.
4:43
Anne Lester: I don't I don't know if they still do them or not.
4:44
Anne Lester: The Budweiser commercials with the Clydesdale pulling, like, the Budweiser wagon through the snowy
4:48
Anne Lester: woods.
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Anne Lester: And I just remember thinking that is the most exotic, magical,
4:54
Anne Lester: snowy woods just, you know, just seemed incredibly
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Anne Lester: exotic to me.
4:59
Anne Lester: So Yeah.
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Anne Lester: It's all what you what you grew up with.
5:02
Lisa Nichols: Right.
5:03
Lisa Nichols: Right.
5:03
Lisa Nichols: Right.
5:03
Lisa Nichols: Right.
5:03
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
5:03
Lisa Nichols: I'm thinking, what was it?
5:05
Lisa Nichols: Courier and Ives?
5:06
Anne Lester: Yes.
5:07
Anne Lester: Yes.
5:07
Anne Lester: All those things.
5:08
Anne Lester: Just It's snowy.
5:09
Anne Lester: Yes.
5:09
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
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Anne Lester: And maybe maybe kids in Arizona feel like this too, but just impossibly romantic
5:14
Anne Lester: and unimaginable.
5:16
Anne Lester: I never my I have cousins in in Vancouver, and we visited them when
5:20
Anne Lester: I was seven, and that's the only time I saw snow until I was
5:22
Anne Lester: sixteen, seventeen on a high school trip.
5:25
Anne Lester: Yeah.
5:26
Lisa Nichols: Well, you know, there's good things about every place we grow up.
5:29
Lisa Nichols: Right?
5:29
Lisa Nichols: That is
5:30
Anne Lester: so true.
5:30
Anne Lester: That is so true.
5:31
Lisa Nichols: So true.
5:32
Lisa Nichols: But do you think the island culture at all shaped your
5:36
Lisa Nichols: view towards money at all, Anne?
5:40
Anne Lester: I don't think so.
5:41
Anne Lester: I think I think what you learn at home
5:45
Anne Lester: is really
5:47
Anne Lester: as a child, you know, I talk about this in the book.
5:51
Anne Lester: We're all born with sort of a a wiring, and
5:55
Anne Lester: we can talk about behavioral economics.
5:56
Anne Lester: Right?
5:57
Anne Lester: But certain predispositions to,
6:00
Anne Lester: being aware of of delayed gratification or not.
6:05
Anne Lester: I'm in the not category.
6:06
Anne Lester: I don't do that well.
6:07
Anne Lester: Really
6:09
Anne Lester: hating, you know, the fear of losing is really powerful for people.
6:13
Anne Lester: That actually is, like, irrelevant for me.
6:14
Anne Lester: I just don't have that.
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Anne Lester: It's what made me a good money manager.
6:17
Anne Lester: Like, I just don't worry about losing.
6:19
Anne Lester: Doesn't make me anxious.
6:20
Anne Lester: But there are a lot of studies that that most people, it's so painful
6:24
Anne Lester: to think about losing that people will take odds that are, like,
6:28
Anne Lester: wildly terrible in order to protect something.
6:31
Anne Lester: Right?
6:32
Anne Lester: And so so when you think about how you react to money, some of
6:35
Anne Lester: it is just literally the way your brain is wired to respond to certain
6:39
Anne Lester: kinds of stimuli, right, and that's genetics.
6:42
Anne Lester: And then there's all the the nurture stuff.
6:44
Anne Lester: Right?
6:45
Anne Lester: So there's the nature, how are you wired, and there's the the nurture, what
6:48
Anne Lester: did you get taught at home or not.
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Anne Lester: And, you know, my dad was a professor and I would have put us
6:53
Anne Lester: squarely in the middle class.
6:55
Anne Lester: You know, there wasn't a ton of extra money, but there was certainly enough
6:58
Anne Lester: money for things my parents thought was important.
7:00
Anne Lester: And they never talked about budgeting.
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Anne Lester: There was just you know, I never got an allowance.
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Anne Lester: It was just if they thought something made sense, they'd say, yes, you can
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Anne Lester: have the money.
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Anne Lester: And if they didn't, they didn't.
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Anne Lester: And that's a terrible way to grow up because I didn't
7:13
Anne Lester: learn any the only boundary I learned was is this something important and useful
7:17
Anne Lester: and good?
7:20
Anne Lester: Like, that doesn't help you when you've got a finite amount of money and
7:22
Anne Lester: you gotta stretch it so far.
7:23
Anne Lester: Right?
7:23
Anne Lester: I I I made a whole bunch of terrible mistakes because of that.
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Anne Lester: That wasn't the island culture.
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Anne Lester: That was what I learned at home.
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Anne Lester: Most kids learn about money and how it works by the
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Anne Lester: age of eight.
7:34
Lisa Nichols: Oh, is that right?
7:36
Lisa Nichols: Wow.
7:36
Lisa Nichols: I did not realize it was that early.
7:38
Anne Lester: Which is before we most of us start talking to our kids about money.
7:41
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
7:42
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
7:42
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
7:43
Lisa Nichols: Well, we'll we'll talk about that because, you talk about money, shame.
7:47
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
7:47
Lisa Nichols: And I think you have a story even.
7:50
Lisa Nichols: Right?
7:50
Anne Lester: Oh, about the the the lemonade.
7:53
Anne Lester: Yes.
7:54
Anne Lester: And, you know That one.
7:55
Anne Lester: Yeah.
7:56
Anne Lester: And Yeah.
7:56
Anne Lester: And, this woman who who told me this
8:02
Anne Lester: had started a lemonade stand, and she was so excited.
8:05
Anne Lester: And she was talking about, like, the business of running her lemonade stand.
8:09
Anne Lester: And her father basically said, we don't talk about money, you know, and shut
8:12
Anne Lester: it down.
8:13
Anne Lester: And and what again, what a terrible thing to do.
8:17
Anne Lester: And and there's a core of a good value there, which is we shouldn't
8:21
Anne Lester: be
8:22
Anne Lester: referring to money as a way of making somebody better than or less than.
8:26
Anne Lester: Right?
8:27
Anne Lester: Which I think that's what I take away from this is money does not
8:29
Anne Lester: make you a better human being.
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Anne Lester: Not having it does not make you a worse human being.
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Anne Lester: It's actually irrelevant.
8:34
Anne Lester: And when you keep score with money and feel better about yourself because you
8:38
Anne Lester: have more money, I think that's a terrible thing.
8:40
Anne Lester: And I think that's where this whole we don't talk about money
8:44
Anne Lester: thing came from, but we don't talk about the mechanics of running a business
8:47
Anne Lester: with a child.
8:48
Anne Lester: Like, that's that's parental malpractice, I think.
8:52
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
8:53
Lisa Nichols: Well, I and I think I I don't I think you're probably right.
8:57
Lisa Nichols: I think it's probably not, you know, making sure
9:01
Lisa Nichols: that that money was not status, you know, or how you stacked up
9:05
Lisa Nichols: because, I mean, my parents really and it could have been that generation.
9:09
Lisa Nichols: My dad was born in the Great Depression.
9:11
Lisa Nichols: You know?
9:11
Lisa Nichols: That was mine.
9:12
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
9:12
Lisa Nichols: Money was not really talked about.
9:14
Lisa Nichols: But but you said when you were a little girl, you
9:18
Lisa Nichols: know, that money burned a hole in your pocket.
9:21
Lisa Nichols: So you're not on the savings side.
9:23
Anne Lester: I'm terrible.
9:24
Anne Lester: I am terrible at savings.
9:25
Anne Lester: I don't know if you've heard of them.
9:26
Anne Lester: I I I write in the book about the marshmallow test, which was this
9:29
Anne Lester: test that researchers at Stanford did in the sixties, with a bunch of preschoolers,
9:33
Anne Lester: and they gave them each a marshmallow.
9:35
Anne Lester: And then they said, okay.
9:36
Anne Lester: The adults are gonna leave the room, and we'll be back in ten minutes.
9:38
Anne Lester: And if you don't eat the marshmallow before we come back, we'll give you
9:41
Anne Lester: a second marshmallow.
9:43
Anne Lester: Okay.
9:43
Anne Lester: There is no way I would not have eaten a marshmallow.
9:46
Anne Lester: Like, I would have been a hundred percent all in, like, oh, nobody's here.
9:49
Anne Lester: Let me eat my marshmallow.
9:50
Anne Lester: Do you want yours, like, you're not eating yours.
9:52
Anne Lester: I'd like to have your marshmallow.
9:54
Anne Lester: Yeah.
9:54
Anne Lester: I would totally like yeah.
9:56
Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
9:57
Lisa Nichols: Well, I remember reading that story.
9:58
Lisa Nichols: And do you remember how that came out?
10:00
Lisa Nichols: I mean, are there more are So it's towards spending
10:04
Lisa Nichols: or saving?
10:05
Anne Lester: It's a little complicated because, of course, it's not just that simple.
10:09
Anne Lester: But the bottom line is the kids who
10:13
Anne Lester: passed, right, the marshmallow test, who successfully delayed gratification
10:17
Anne Lester: and didn't eat the marshmallow,
10:20
Anne Lester: tended to do better in school.
10:22
Anne Lester: They tended to be more, you know, air quote, responsible.
10:25
Anne Lester: They tended to do better with money.
10:27
Anne Lester: They were better at delaying gratification.
10:28
Anne Lester: And as we know, delaying gratification, whether it's not eating a marshmallow, saving
10:32
Anne Lester: for the future, saving for a down payment, studying for your test,
10:37
Anne Lester: Right?
10:38
Anne Lester: That's all flavors of delayed gratification.
10:42
Anne Lester: And when more research was done, it kinda I won't say debunked, but
10:47
Anne Lester: turns out there's a lot more at work than just your own wiring.
10:51
Anne Lester: And it's also what lessons have you learned as a three or four year
10:54
Anne Lester: old about your ability to trust the world.
10:56
Anne Lester: And do you trust that adult to actually follow through on that promise?
10:59
Anne Lester: Or have you learned by the age of four that, you know what, if
11:01
Anne Lester: there's a marshmallow, you better grab it because somebody else might take it from
11:04
Anne Lester: you.
11:04
Anne Lester: Right?
11:04
Anne Lester: So it's a little overly simplistic, but the the
11:08
Anne Lester: core of it, I think, is true, and that has been documented and supported.
11:13
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
11:14
Lisa Nichols: So good.
11:15
Lisa Nichols: Well,
11:17
Lisa Nichols: tell this story because this was kind of a turning point for you.
11:21
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
11:23
Lisa Nichols: You you have a degree in political economy from Princeton, master's in
11:27
Lisa Nichols: international relations from John Hopkins, but you were in Italy.
11:31
Lisa Nichols: And there is an airport baggage story Yeah.
11:34
Lisa Nichols: That was really kind of a pivot for you.
11:37
Lisa Nichols: Tell that story.
11:38
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
11:39
Anne Lester: So I was actually moving to Italy.
11:41
Anne Lester: I'd been living in Japan, and
11:44
Anne Lester: I got to the airport to check-in and, you know,
11:49
Anne Lester: was living as a sort of starving graduate student student as one does.
11:54
Anne Lester: And
11:56
Anne Lester: I checked in and, you know, heaved my two giant suitcases out of
12:00
Anne Lester: the scale, and I had this, like, enormous garment bag that was like like
12:04
Anne Lester: I don't know how large this thing was.
12:05
Anne Lester: It was as big as my carry ons my checked luggage.
12:07
Anne Lester: Right?
12:08
Anne Lester: And the guy at the check-in stand says, okay.
12:12
Anne Lester: That's gonna be you gotta weigh that thing.
12:14
Anne Lester: It's too big to go as carry on.
12:16
Anne Lester: And I'm like, oh, okay.
12:17
Anne Lester: Alright.
12:18
Anne Lester: And he says that's gonna be I forget the exact number now, but it
12:21
Anne Lester: was Four hundred dollars.
12:22
Anne Lester: Yeah.
12:22
Anne Lester: It was four hundred dollars.
12:23
Anne Lester: Yeah.
12:24
Anne Lester: Yeah.
12:24
Anne Lester: It was, like, eighty thousand yen or whatever the exchange rate was.
12:27
Anne Lester: And I just I just looked at him and I gave him my credit
12:30
Anne Lester: card and it bounced.
12:31
Anne Lester: Right?
12:31
Anne Lester: It wouldn't go through because I was totally maxed out.
12:33
Anne Lester: And I just I didn't have the money.
12:37
Anne Lester: And I started to cry.
12:38
Anne Lester: I was so ashamed of myself.
12:40
Anne Lester: You know?
12:40
Anne Lester: Here I was starting this brand new life.
12:42
Anne Lester: I was moving in, you know, flying to Italy, moving in with my husband.
12:45
Anne Lester: We got engaged.
12:46
Anne Lester: I was gonna look for a job in finance.
12:48
Anne Lester: I didn't have a job at this point.
12:51
Anne Lester: And I couldn't afford to get on the plane.
12:55
Anne Lester: I and the guy finally just looked at the line behind me and just
12:58
Anne Lester: said, just never mind.
12:59
Anne Lester: Just go.
13:02
Lisa Nichols: Lucky for you that day.
13:03
Lisa Nichols: Right?
13:03
Anne Lester: Well, so so there's there's actually a little more information here, which makes it
13:07
Anne Lester: a slightly less good story, which is a was it off that you're allowed
13:10
Anne Lester: to I I didn't embellish the story, but I did not reveal all of
13:13
Anne Lester: the information.
13:14
Anne Lester: So part of the reason he let me go was if back in the
13:17
Anne Lester: day, right, American Airlines, still had all these rules
13:21
Anne Lester: and it one of the rules was if you were leaving to or from
13:24
Anne Lester: the continental US, you were allowed two check bags for free.
13:28
Anne Lester: And that was just a rule.
13:29
Anne Lester: So if you flew to or from the US or within the US, you
13:32
Anne Lester: got two check bags.
13:33
Anne Lester: The rest of the world was one check bag.
13:34
Anne Lester: And he's like, have you ever flown, like, from Japan to Italy before?
13:38
Anne Lester: And I was like, no.
13:38
Anne Lester: And he said, okay.
13:39
Anne Lester: Well, there's a rule.
13:41
Anne Lester: You probably don't know that you're only allowed one check bag.
13:44
Anne Lester: And I was like, I didn't know that.
13:46
Anne Lester: And so he was like, alright.
13:47
Anne Lester: Fine.
13:47
Anne Lester: Never mind.
13:48
Anne Lester: So he that was part of the reason he let me through, but most
13:51
Anne Lester: of it was, I think, being confronted by my, you know, teary eyes and
13:54
Lisa Nichols: Right.
13:54
Anne Lester: Wobbly chin and, like, the seventy five angry people behind me.
13:57
Anne Lester: But yeah.
13:58
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
13:59
Lisa Nichols: Well okay.
14:01
Lisa Nichols: So you said, again, you know, I remember reading in the book that you
14:05
Lisa Nichols: were maxed out on your credit cards, financial stress out the wazoo.
14:10
Lisa Nichols: When do you think that there was that shift,
14:14
Lisa Nichols: in you and where that's that money really, instead
14:18
Lisa Nichols: of becoming a source of stress, really became more of an
14:22
Lisa Nichols: empowerment for you.
14:23
Lisa Nichols: What was the shift?
14:25
Anne Lester: I don't know that I've ever hit the point where money is empowering.
14:30
Anne Lester: What I did was understand
14:35
Anne Lester: that
14:37
Anne Lester: I am not
14:40
Anne Lester: bad with, let's just call it delayed gratification and not spending money
14:44
Anne Lester: on stuff I want,
14:47
Anne Lester: because I'm a weak person or a stupid person
14:51
Anne Lester: or a bad person.
14:53
Anne Lester: I'm bad at it because I'm not wired like that.
14:57
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
14:57
Anne Lester: And I actually discovered that in in over the course of about a year
15:01
Anne Lester: when I was doing research in my job at JPMorgan, designing target date
15:05
Anne Lester: funds for JPMorgan, which I ended up launching.
15:08
Anne Lester: And, you know, if you have a four zero one k plan, you probably
15:12
Anne Lester: have been defaulted into or have a choice of having a a target date
15:15
Anne Lester: fund.
15:15
Anne Lester: So I was in charge of JPMorgan's version of these.
15:19
Anne Lester: And
15:20
Anne Lester: as part of the research for these funds, I rolled around going
15:24
Anne Lester: to, four zero one k
15:29
Anne Lester: plan sponsor meetings.
15:30
Anne Lester: So do you have a four zero one k plan?
15:32
Anne Lester: There's a group of something called a fiduciary who's legally obligated to act in
15:36
Anne Lester: the plan's best interest.
15:37
Anne Lester: And they have meetings every quarter, and they review all this stuff about the
15:39
Anne Lester: four zero one k plan, including how the investments are doing, but also
15:44
Anne Lester: how participants are doing.
15:45
Anne Lester: Are they saving?
15:47
Anne Lester: Are they taking out loans?
15:48
Anne Lester: Who's starting?
15:49
Anne Lester: Who's stopping?
15:50
Anne Lester: What are the statistics of behavior look like?
15:52
Anne Lester: And I was sitting through these meetings listening as a portfolio manager,
15:56
Anne Lester: like, you know, explaining my fund and my performance and the choices we were
15:59
Anne Lester: making and why they should either not fire us or hire us or whatever
16:02
Anne Lester: the story was.
16:03
Anne Lester: And I was sitting through these meetings going, well, hang on.
16:07
Anne Lester: They're spending hours talking about loans and people dropping
16:11
Anne Lester: out.
16:11
Anne Lester: And I was like, wait a minute.
16:14
Anne Lester: People don't all just save.
16:17
Anne Lester: People are just as messed up as I am.
16:19
Anne Lester: I mean, that was a huge, like, I'm Uh-huh.
16:23
Anne Lester: Woah.
16:23
Anne Lester: This isn't just me.
16:24
Anne Lester: I'm not, you know, this isn't just me being uniquely terrible.
16:28
Anne Lester: And then I started doing more academic research into this whole relatively
16:32
Anne Lester: new field of behavioral economics, which kinda goes into the fact that we're not
16:36
Anne Lester: rational economic actors.
16:38
Anne Lester: Right?
16:38
Anne Lester: As a as a student in the in the eighties in college when I
16:41
Anne Lester: was studying economics, we were all taught that, you know, people are rational economic
16:45
Anne Lester: actors and, you know, they're not.
16:47
Anne Lester: They are absolutely one hundred percent not rational economic actors.
16:51
Anne Lester: There are all these things that influence why we make the decisions we do
16:55
Anne Lester: with money, with jobs, with with all kinds of things.
16:58
Anne Lester: And
17:00
Anne Lester: the the combination of those two things happening at the same time with this
17:03
Anne Lester: massive just weight off my shoulders is like, oh,
17:07
Anne Lester: I'm just like everybody else.
17:09
Anne Lester: The only one.
17:10
Anne Lester: And Right.
17:11
Anne Lester: It's it's it took the whole moral, like,
17:15
Anne Lester: success failure is all my fault because of the active decisions
17:19
Anne Lester: I'm making.
17:20
Anne Lester: And it's like, oh, wait a minute.
17:21
Anne Lester: I'm not making any active decisions here at all.
17:23
Anne Lester: I'm just, like,
17:25
Anne Lester: grabbing the thing that's in front of me before the saber tooth tiger eats
17:28
Anne Lester: me, which is why we're all wired like this.
17:30
Anne Lester: Right?
17:30
Anne Lester: That saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
17:35
Anne Lester: is literally the marshmallow test.
17:36
Anne Lester: Right?
17:36
Anne Lester: If there's a marshmallow in front of you, you better grab it because you
17:39
Anne Lester: never know when the tiger is gonna come and take it.
17:41
Anne Lester: Right?
17:41
Anne Lester: So
17:41
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
17:42
Anne Lester: It's not bad
17:46
Anne Lester: to not necessarily trust or to get overridden by that impulse.
17:50
Anne Lester: Right?
17:50
Anne Lester: And so to me, one of the keys in helping people
17:55
Anne Lester: navigate their own money choices better is to help them understand, like, a,
18:00
Anne Lester: some of this the stuff you do may not be as conscious as you
18:04
Anne Lester: think.
18:05
Anne Lester: There have been Nobel prizes won for this stuff.
18:07
Anne Lester: Right?
18:07
Anne Lester: So this is not by by any means anything I've I've figured out.
18:11
Anne Lester: But but I think, a, it it it may or may
18:15
Anne Lester: not be a conscious decision you're making.
18:17
Anne Lester: And therefore, if you wanna change it, you need
18:21
Anne Lester: if you don't like the results, right, you need to number one,
18:25
Anne Lester: understand it.
18:26
Anne Lester: And then number two, say, okay.
18:28
Anne Lester: Well, how do I stop recreating these circumstances over
18:32
Anne Lester: and over again?
18:33
Anne Lester: Like, don't if if you struggle with not eating Oreos, I
18:37
Anne Lester: will also put myself in that camp.
18:39
Anne Lester: Like, don't leave them on the counter.
18:41
Lisa Nichols: Right.
18:42
Lisa Nichols: Don't buy them in the first place.
18:44
Anne Lester: And well, exactly.
18:45
Anne Lester: Right.
18:45
Anne Lester: Change the behavior.
18:46
Anne Lester: Change change the the circumstances
18:50
Anne Lester: that lead to the behavior Yes.
18:53
Anne Lester: So that you're less likely to have that behavior happen.
18:55
Anne Lester: So Yeah.
18:56
Anne Lester: So and that's that's to me just the root of
19:00
Anne Lester: starting to change your behavior.
19:02
Anne Lester: And then there's a lot of other stuff that you can really dig into
19:06
Anne Lester: about your relationship with money and the lessons you learned.
19:08
Anne Lester: And if you grew up, you know, financially insecure, there may be
19:12
Anne Lester: some other work you can do that's sort of a longer, slower, deeper path.
19:16
Anne Lester: And, like, I encourage people to do that, but that may take a while.
19:19
Anne Lester: And in the meantime,
19:21
Anne Lester: maybe create some guardrails around yourself so you don't keep falling off.
19:25
Anne Lester: Right?
19:25
Anne Lester: And to me, that's that's that's the big lesson.
19:28
Anne Lester: You can forgive yourself, make space to do the work, and
19:32
Anne Lester: set up some guardrails so that it's more easy for you to stay on
19:35
Anne Lester: the track that you wanna be on.
19:37
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
19:37
Lisa Nichols: That's good.
19:38
Lisa Nichols: That's good.
19:40
Lisa Nichols: Well, you know, I just I wanted to say, I mean, there's just so
19:44
Lisa Nichols: much.
19:44
Lisa Nichols: I mean, you really have had you had an illustrious career.
19:48
Lisa Nichols: You were the managing director for portfolio manager, head of retirement
19:52
Lisa Nichols: solutions at JPMorgan, and you were there for thirty years
19:56
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
19:57
Lisa Nichols: Which is awesome.
19:58
Lisa Nichols: You also like, you talked about Japan a little bit before you went
20:02
Lisa Nichols: to Italy.
20:03
Lisa Nichols: You had you were awarded a Fulbright, research fellowship,
20:08
Lisa Nichols: to work in Japan.
20:10
Lisa Nichols: Did you, you know, have any I mean, because you've been in Italy, you've
20:14
Lisa Nichols: been in do you did you see, like, commonalities between
20:18
Lisa Nichols: the different places that you lived, you know, and and and
20:22
Lisa Nichols: the relationship with money?
20:23
Lisa Nichols: Did you see that people generally are the same?
20:26
Anne Lester: I think and I've done a lot of work in I mean, I lived
20:30
Anne Lester: in Japan.
20:30
Anne Lester: I lived in Italy.
20:31
Anne Lester: I lived in Italy for five and a half years, Japan for one year,
20:34
Anne Lester: one and a half years.
20:36
Anne Lester: And then I've done a lot of work, you know, professionally in in
20:40
Anne Lester: UK and Australia.
20:41
Anne Lester: And I think a lot of, you know, what I call the Anglo Saxon
20:45
Anne Lester: world, like the US, UK, Australia, these native English speaking countries,
20:49
Anne Lester: not so sure about New Zealand,
20:53
Anne Lester: are more alike in some ways in that
20:57
Anne Lester: there's a culture of investing in equities and taking financial risk.
21:02
Anne Lester: And I think my observation is, you know, in Japan and in
21:06
Anne Lester: Italy and in other European countries and
21:11
Anne Lester: other Asian countries, people are much less trusting
21:15
Anne Lester: of the equity markets in general, and they have much less historical reason
21:19
Anne Lester: to be because historically they haven't performed so well.
21:21
Anne Lester: And there's much more of a savings culture and much
21:26
Anne Lester: less comfort with taking financial risk.
21:29
Anne Lester: So Mhmm.
21:30
Anne Lester: It was certainly true in Italy for a long time that country had
21:34
Anne Lester: many, many famous problems with its budget deficit, its governments,
21:38
Anne Lester: its exchange rate like the lira was constantly devaluing.
21:41
Anne Lester: And people would buy government bonds because they were paying fifteen, eighteen, twenty percent
21:45
Anne Lester: interest because they had crazy high inflation and they kept devaluing against everybody.
21:49
Anne Lester: So it wasn't necessarily a good economic decision to make, but on paper, it
21:53
Anne Lester: looked great.
21:55
Anne Lester: And it was probably better than investing in the Italian stock market at the
21:58
Anne Lester: time.
21:58
Anne Lester: Right?
21:58
Anne Lester: And I'm talking about the seventies and the eighties and maybe the early eighties.
22:02
Anne Lester: And in Japan, it's the same thing.
22:03
Anne Lester: Very high historic savings rates.
22:05
Anne Lester: Right?
22:05
Anne Lester: Massively higher than the US.
22:07
Anne Lester: Like, fifteen, twenty, twenty five percent of income.
22:09
Anne Lester: It's just like what you do, and it's a cultural thing.
22:12
Lisa Nichols: A cultural thing.
22:13
Lisa Nichols: Right?
22:15
Lisa Nichols: Well, tell me this, and then I'm I wanna get into your book because
22:18
Lisa Nichols: that's where I wanna spend the majority of our time.
22:20
Lisa Nichols: But you've got three patents.
22:22
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
22:23
Lisa Nichols: Anne?
22:24
Lisa Nichols: Tell me more about
22:25
Anne Lester: that.
22:26
Anne Lester: That's super cute.
22:26
Lisa Nichols: That's incredible.
22:28
Anne Lester: Good for you.
22:30
Anne Lester: The first couple were born out of total frustration.
22:34
Anne Lester: So, you know, I like I said, I helped them develop and manage JPMorgan's
22:37
Anne Lester: target date funds.
22:38
Anne Lester: And when I launched those target date funds and actually, it's funny because it's
22:42
Anne Lester: coming up now a lot too in the press suddenly.
22:44
Anne Lester: We launched those with every single kind of investable
22:48
Anne Lester: asset that we could legally buy at the time.
22:51
Anne Lester: So not just US stocks and US bonds, which is kinda like, you know,
22:55
Anne Lester: meat and potatoes, but we had international stocks and small cap stocks
22:59
Anne Lester: and emerging market equity and emerging
23:03
Anne Lester: market debt and high yield bonds, which are getting a little crazier.
23:07
Anne Lester: Right now we're getting into the to the fancy stuff.
23:10
Anne Lester: And we also because my team had managed a lot of money for
23:14
Anne Lester: very large pension plans and endowments and foundations and universities
23:18
Anne Lester: and stuff, invested in what are called private assets that are not traded on
23:22
Anne Lester: a stock exchange.
23:23
Anne Lester: And we used real estate, we used private debt.
23:26
Anne Lester: We looked at but ended up not doing at the time for sort of
23:29
Anne Lester: technical reasons, private equity.
23:31
Anne Lester: So these are unlisted securities that you can't buy in a mutual fund.
23:34
Anne Lester: And our view at the time, twenty plus years ago, was, you know, we
23:38
Anne Lester: wanna put all the good stuff in these funds.
23:41
Anne Lester: So we'd roll into these conversations with clients.
23:43
Anne Lester: We're trying to pick between us and somebody else, and,
23:47
Anne Lester: the clients would be putting really different kinds of funds together to
23:51
Anne Lester: have kind of like a beauty pageant, like a beauty show, like, who do
23:54
Anne Lester: you like better, who's shinier, who has prettier pictures in their slide book?
23:58
Anne Lester: You know?
23:58
Anne Lester: Who talks better?
24:00
Anne Lester: So so the the there's all this, you know, research and yada yada yada,
24:03
Anne Lester: and and they'd end up comparing us on things that were so different.
24:07
Anne Lester: It's like you're comparing it's it's not even apples and oranges.
24:09
Anne Lester: You're comparing, like, apples and screwdrivers.
24:12
Anne Lester: Like, we weren't even the same family.
24:14
Anne Lester: Right?
24:14
Anne Lester: You we were comparing our fund with all this crazy ex exotic investing
24:18
Anne Lester: stuff with somebody who had, like, US stocks, US bonds,
24:22
Anne Lester: international equities, fixed income, boom, done, four asset classes.
24:25
Anne Lester: And, like, we had thirteen.
24:27
Anne Lester: Like, you should think about that.
24:29
Anne Lester: That decision is bigger than if you like us or them.
24:31
Anne Lester: Like, make that decision first.
24:33
Anne Lester: Right?
24:33
Anne Lester: Make make the decision about what kind of investment you
24:37
Anne Lester: want first and then pick the manager.
24:40
Anne Lester: Right?
24:40
Anne Lester: So the first two patents were for a way to help clients
24:44
Anne Lester: understand
24:46
Anne Lester: basically what pond they wanted to be fishing when they were picking a manager.
24:50
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
24:52
Anne Lester: The last patent was for something really geeky, and that was trying to help
24:56
Anne Lester: people figure out how they could retire with a pot of money and
25:00
Anne Lester: make sure it didn't run out before they died.
25:04
Anne Lester: So if you important.
25:06
Anne Lester: If you retire, right, and you have a four zero one k plan, maybe
25:09
Anne Lester: you don't have a financial advisor, you retire, you got half a million bucks,
25:11
Anne Lester: and they're like, good luck.
25:15
Anne Lester: And you're like, well, how much,
25:17
Anne Lester: a, how do I invest it?
25:18
Anne Lester: B, how much how much do I spend out of this every year?
25:21
Anne Lester: Like, how much can I take how much can I afford?
25:22
Anne Lester: How long am I gonna live?
25:23
Anne Lester: What am I you you can't answer any of the questions.
25:25
Anne Lester: So Mhmm.
25:26
Anne Lester: We came up with a methodology to help provide guidance
25:30
Anne Lester: because we couldn't tell people what to do because then we'd get into all
25:34
Anne Lester: kinds of regulatory trouble.
25:35
Anne Lester: But to provide a sort of you could withdraw between these two amounts
25:40
Anne Lester: and have a very high probability of having it last until you're a hundred.
25:44
Anne Lester: So that patent was, like I said, super geeky mathematically and had a whole
25:47
Anne Lester: bunch of inputs and, I thought was was a very interesting idea.
25:52
Anne Lester: We ended up not launching a product based off the back of it for
25:55
Anne Lester: a whole other bunch of reasons, but it was a it's a it's a
25:57
Anne Lester: fun thing to do.
25:58
Anne Lester: You know?
25:58
Anne Lester: It's a fun thing to be creative and try to solve a problem nobody
26:01
Anne Lester: solved before.
26:02
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
26:02
Lisa Nichols: For sure.
26:03
Lisa Nichols: I know it's not easy.
26:04
Lisa Nichols: I know it's not easy because I've got friends that have patents, and I
26:07
Lisa Nichols: know it's not an easy process.
26:09
Lisa Nichols: But, I wanna get into this, and then we do need to take a
26:12
Lisa Nichols: quick break, and then we'll come right back.
26:15
Lisa Nichols: But why did you write this book?
26:18
Lisa Nichols: And you are so passionate, like I said, about millennials and gen
26:22
Lisa Nichols: z's.
26:23
Lisa Nichols: You know, millennials nineteen eighty one to nineteen ninety six, gen z nineteen ninety
26:27
Lisa Nichols: seven to twenty twelve.
26:29
Lisa Nichols: And you have you have your own two kids.
26:32
Lisa Nichols: Right?
26:32
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
26:33
Lisa Nichols: So this could have been part of it.
26:34
Lisa Nichols: You know?
26:35
Lisa Nichols: And but why did you decide
26:36
Anne Lester: to write the book?
26:38
Anne Lester: So
26:40
Anne Lester: I guess three big reasons, and I'll start with the selfish
26:44
Anne Lester: one first.
26:44
Anne Lester: I wish I'd been able to read this book when I was that age.
26:47
Anne Lester: Like, I I needed all this information, and I had none of it.
26:50
Anne Lester: None of it.
26:52
Anne Lester: I got a little bit of it in my first job from some older
26:55
Anne Lester: coworkers who were, like, explaining that it was important to save for retirement, and
26:58
Anne Lester: here's how you think about investing the money, but that that was it.
27:00
Anne Lester: Like, a couple of Mhmm.
27:02
Anne Lester: Oh, by the way, did you sign up for the Federal First Savings Plan?
27:06
Anne Lester: Because that's what I had, in my first job because I worked for a
27:08
Anne Lester: senator, right out of college.
27:11
Anne Lester: So that was the first reason.
27:13
Anne Lester: I wish that I had this book.
27:13
Anne Lester: It's the book I wanted.
27:15
Anne Lester: The second reason is for my kids.
27:16
Anne Lester: It's it's the book I want them to have and I want their friends
27:19
Anne Lester: to have, and and that to me is super important.
27:23
Anne Lester: And then the third reason is kinda tied to the second one.
27:27
Anne Lester: When you're in your twenties and thirties and even early forties, time
27:32
Anne Lester: is on your side.
27:33
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
27:34
Anne Lester: And you can kinda fix most financial messes.
27:38
Anne Lester: Like, if you've not started saving at all, you start saving in your thirties,
27:42
Anne Lester: you're gonna have to save a little bit more than you wish you
27:46
Anne Lester: did if you wanna be able to stop working in your mid to late
27:48
Anne Lester: sixties, but it's possible.
27:51
Anne Lester: So it's essentially a happy book with a single message, which is help you
27:55
Anne Lester: figure out how to save more money and choices are there.
27:58
Anne Lester: You can live your best financial life.
28:00
Anne Lester: If you're fifty five or sixty and have not started saving at all,
28:05
Anne Lester: this is not a happy story.
28:06
Anne Lester: Right?
28:06
Anne Lester: This is a story about needing to make some really uncomfortable
28:11
Anne Lester: trade offs, and my book is stuffed full of advice that will help you
28:14
Anne Lester: live a better life.
28:17
Anne Lester: But I'm not gonna say it's gonna be your best life because you're gonna
28:20
Anne Lester: have to make some really uncomfortable changes, where you live, what your house
28:24
Anne Lester: looks like, maybe the state you live in, how long you have to work.
28:27
Anne Lester: There are all kinds of unpleasant things that if you really wanna
28:31
Anne Lester: shift things and give yourself more resources when you retire, you you just have
28:35
Anne Lester: unpleasant choices to make that are gonna be painful.
28:38
Anne Lester: And so the third reason is I didn't wanna write that unhappy
28:42
Anne Lester: book.
28:43
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
28:44
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
28:45
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
28:46
Lisa Nichols: I mean, you I mean, and you're taking what you've learned.
28:49
Lisa Nichols: Right?
28:50
Lisa Nichols: Personally personally, I mean, you had to go through some things
28:54
Lisa Nichols: personally, you know, because you said I'm managing all, you know, all
28:58
Lisa Nichols: this money for JPMorgan.
29:00
Lisa Nichols: And then my own life, I wasn't managing.
29:02
Lisa Nichols: So mess.
29:03
Anne Lester: You know?
29:04
Lisa Nichols: So I love it because you I mean, I read somewhere where you said
29:08
Lisa Nichols: you feel like you're giving a gift.
29:10
Lisa Nichols: You're giving other people a gift.
29:12
Lisa Nichols: And and we know,
29:15
Lisa Nichols: Anne, financial stress.
29:18
Lisa Nichols: It does all kinds of things to us.
29:20
Lisa Nichols: Right?
29:21
Lisa Nichols: It it it's stressful on our if we're if we're married,
29:25
Lisa Nichols: it's it's stressful on our health.
29:28
Anne Lester: It makes us stupid too.
29:30
Anne Lester: And I think something I wish more employers understood
29:34
Anne Lester: is the amount of lost productivity that is going on in the workplace
29:38
Anne Lester: because of stress.
29:39
Anne Lester: And I've seen studies that say as much as twenty percent of productivity is
29:43
Anne Lester: lost because of financial stress for the average worker.
29:45
Anne Lester: That's one day a week.
29:47
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
29:48
Anne Lester: Right.
29:48
Anne Lester: I mean and and it may or may not be the case that an
29:51
Anne Lester: employer can say, great.
29:52
Anne Lester: I'll give everybody a twenty percent raise.
29:54
Anne Lester: Like, that might not be financially realistic.
29:57
Anne Lester: But, you know, to think about ways of helping them more successfully
30:02
Anne Lester: manage their day to day finances, a very simple thing that that is now
30:05
Anne Lester: legally possible and I think is now starting to gain some traction is helping
30:09
Anne Lester: workers set up emergency savings funds next to their four zero one k plans
30:12
Anne Lester: that automatically get deducted from their paycheck.
30:14
Anne Lester: So automation is king.
30:16
Anne Lester: Right?
30:16
Anne Lester: Automation is the first step to solving this.
30:20
Anne Lester: And once I talk about it in the book.
30:22
Anne Lester: Right?
30:22
Anne Lester: Once you get a little bit used to building that savings muscle, suddenly you're
30:26
Anne Lester: saver.
30:27
Anne Lester: And suddenly, that set of new tires that you haven't
30:32
Anne Lester: that you didn't know you needed.
30:34
Anne Lester: Right?
30:34
Anne Lester: And then you get into a fender bender and they're like, yo, your tires
30:37
Anne Lester: are bald and you're like, oh, that's a thousand bucks.
30:40
Anne Lester: I don't have.
30:41
Anne Lester: Like, what do you do?
30:42
Anne Lester: Right?
30:42
Anne Lester: You gotta figure it out.
30:44
Anne Lester: Otherwise, you're not gonna go to work.
30:45
Anne Lester: Like, I mean, that that is the thing that
30:50
Anne Lester: tips people over into catastrophe.
30:53
Anne Lester: Right?
30:53
Anne Lester: Something is
30:55
Anne Lester: seemingly naive as needing new tires.
30:57
Anne Lester: Right?
30:58
Anne Lester: Right?
30:58
Anne Lester: I mean and so I I just never want anybody to be losing sleep
31:01
Anne Lester: over needing to buy new tires.
31:03
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
31:03
Lisa Nichols: Well, it is a gift.
31:05
Lisa Nichols: It is a gift.
31:05
Lisa Nichols: If people will take it and learn and, dig in, right,
31:09
Lisa Nichols: and do the work.
31:10
Lisa Nichols: Right, Anne?
31:11
Lisa Nichols: Well, we do need to take a quick break, and we'll be right back
31:14
Lisa Nichols: on the Something Extra podcast with Anne Lester.
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31:47
Lisa Nichols: Welcome back, everyone, to the Something Extra podcast with Anne Luster.
31:51
Lisa Nichols: Been learning so much, Anne.
31:52
Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much.
31:53
Lisa Nichols: I feel like I've had a mini, MBA course here.
31:57
Lisa Nichols: But, you know, what I mean, we've been talking about goodness gracious.
32:00
Lisa Nichols: If you're fifty five and or sixteen, you have not started saving, it's gonna
32:04
Lisa Nichols: be a hard road.
32:06
Lisa Nichols: It's probably gonna be a really hard road.
32:08
Lisa Nichols: But what if somebody just feels really behind financially?
32:13
Lisa Nichols: That they feel like, you know, I really have not managed my money well.
32:16
Lisa Nichols: What is one step, just that one thing that they can do,
32:21
Lisa Nichols: you know, to to move the needle in the right direction?
32:26
Anne Lester: So to me, it starts with your cash flow.
32:28
Anne Lester: Right?
32:29
Anne Lester: What's coming in, what's going out?
32:30
Anne Lester: And
32:32
Anne Lester: to start making a dent, you have to have a really hard conversation with
32:36
Anne Lester: yourself about what are your needs, what are your wants, and what are desires.
32:41
Anne Lester: And I remember doing this when I left my job at JPMorgan because, you
32:44
Anne Lester: know, I'll just say this, we had not saved enough to continue living at
32:48
Anne Lester: the lifestyle to which I aspired.
32:49
Anne Lester: My husband's like, yeah.
32:50
Anne Lester: I'm good.
32:50
Anne Lester: We don't need to do that anymore.
32:52
Anne Lester: I'm like, no.
32:52
Anne Lester: I wanna go do that.
32:54
Anne Lester: So so it was definitely me pushing this one in our family, but,
33:00
Anne Lester: I spent some time reflecting on what was my definition of
33:04
Anne Lester: failure, like absolute failure.
33:06
Anne Lester: And I remember great when I moved to Italy, we moved in together.
33:09
Anne Lester: I had not yet gotten a job.
33:11
Anne Lester: He had an entry level job.
33:12
Anne Lester: We had just no money.
33:13
Anne Lester: I mean, so little money that we'd sit down every week and we'd say,
33:16
Anne Lester: okay.
33:17
Anne Lester: Do we wanna buy meat, or do we wanna buy an English language newspaper,
33:21
Anne Lester: which cost, like, nine or ten bucks?
33:24
Anne Lester: And we debate that.
33:25
Anne Lester: And so, you know, every once in a while, we'd get a newspaper, but
33:28
Anne Lester: mostly we got food.
33:30
Anne Lester: And there was this is before the Internet, by the way.
33:34
Anne Lester: There was no information flying around.
33:36
Anne Lester: Right?
33:36
Anne Lester: We could not get English language news.
33:38
Anne Lester: Right?
33:39
Anne Lester: So we went to the grocery store, did our weekly shopping, and I got
33:42
Anne Lester: a chicken.
33:42
Anne Lester: And that chicken was gonna turn into, you know, a roast chicken, and then
33:45
Anne Lester: it was gonna the bones were gonna turn into chicken soup, and the extra
33:48
Anne Lester: meat was gonna turn into chicken, you know, risotto and a chicken pasta sauce.
33:52
Anne Lester: And, like, this was gonna be our food that our meat for, like, you
33:55
Anne Lester: know, five days.
33:56
Anne Lester: And we get the chicken home.
33:58
Anne Lester: We unwrap it out of the cellophane, right, as a whole chicken.
34:00
Anne Lester: And I'm like, wait wait a minute.
34:03
Anne Lester: This chicken has a head and feet, and it hasn't been cleaned.
34:08
Anne Lester: It was a polo tradicionale.
34:11
Anne Lester: Right?
34:11
Anne Lester: Traditional chicken.
34:13
Anne Lester: And it had been plucked.
34:15
Anne Lester: And I'm looking at this chicken, which we've now unwrapped, and they're certainly not
34:18
Anne Lester: gonna take back to the grocery store at this point.
34:20
Anne Lester: Right?
34:20
Anne Lester: And we're just like, well, I guess we're going in.
34:23
Anne Lester: Right?
34:23
Anne Lester: So take the head off, take the feet off, get out our, you know,
34:26
Anne Lester: old joy of cooking, which thank goodness had a section on how to clean
34:29
Anne Lester: game because remember no Internet, no YouTube videos to watch.
34:32
Anne Lester: And I still remember the instructions are firmly grasping the neck of the chicken
34:36
Anne Lester: in your left hand with a very sharp knife, carefully reach inside and right?
34:41
Anne Lester: So we clean the chicken.
34:42
Anne Lester: Okay.
34:42
Anne Lester: I never wanna be that poor again.
34:45
Anne Lester: I never ever wanna be so poor that I think, right.
34:49
Anne Lester: Well, the only thing to do here is clean the chicken.
34:53
Anne Lester: Now any of your listeners who go hunting, like, I'm gonna sound like a
34:57
Anne Lester: totally spoiled brat, I can still hear my grandmother in my head saying, you
35:00
Anne Lester: don't know how to clean a chicken?
35:01
Anne Lester: I think she grew up in a farm on in Kansas.
35:03
Anne Lester: Right?
35:04
Anne Lester: She that was her job, cleaning the chickens.
35:06
Anne Lester: At the age of seven, I told her the story, and she was like,
35:09
Anne Lester: you don't know how to clean the chicken?
35:10
Anne Lester: I was like, no.
35:14
Anne Lester: That's too poor.
35:15
Anne Lester: Like, that's failure.
35:16
Anne Lester: Okay.
35:17
Anne Lester: So you're trying to find ways to save some
35:21
Anne Lester: money.
35:22
Anne Lester: Are you going out to eat?
35:25
Anne Lester: Are you buying food that's not on sale?
35:29
Anne Lester: Are you going to the discount grocery store?
35:33
Anne Lester: Are you going I mean, sorry to throw Whole Foods under the bus here,
35:35
Anne Lester: but, like, are you going to the fancy grocery store, the Wegmans, whatever it
35:38
Anne Lester: is in your your area?
35:39
Anne Lester: Are you going like, where can you start saving money?
35:42
Anne Lester: And if you've already done all of that,
35:46
Anne Lester: right, that's when this gets really hard, and you might need to think about
35:49
Anne Lester: trying to increase your income somehow.
35:51
Anne Lester: You probably already have been worrying about that.
35:53
Lisa Nichols: Still am.
35:53
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
35:54
Anne Lester: But you gotta find places to stop spending, reducing a car.
35:58
Anne Lester: If you're traveling, stop.
36:00
Anne Lester: Right?
36:01
Anne Lester: If you are buying new clothes, stop.
36:05
Anne Lester: If you're subscribing to cable and
36:09
Anne Lester: seven or eight streaming services, stop.
36:13
Anne Lester: Watch the commercials on commercial TV.
36:15
Anne Lester: You it'll be okay for a little while.
36:17
Anne Lester: Right?
36:17
Anne Lester: Like, you can stop spending hundreds of dollars a month.
36:21
Anne Lester: Hundreds of dollars a month that typically are going on streaming services and cable
36:25
Anne Lester: and your cell phone, and you can really cut back.
36:29
Anne Lester: Painful.
36:30
Anne Lester: Super painful.
36:31
Anne Lester: They are gonna be unpleasant decreases in your lifestyle, and that's
36:35
Anne Lester: why I wanted to write the happy book, which is, you know, if you're
36:39
Anne Lester: young, you're still getting raises.
36:41
Anne Lester: You can save half of every raise and do a beautiful thing for yourself,
36:45
Anne Lester: which
36:47
Anne Lester: is, you know, significantly increase how much you're saving, but also not get
36:51
Anne Lester: used to spending all your money.
36:53
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
36:53
Anne Lester: Because when you hit your forties and your fifties, sadly, those raises
36:57
Anne Lester: tend to slow down or stop.
37:00
Anne Lester: And so if you've been riding that escalator up with your income and increasing
37:03
Anne Lester: your spending and your consumption, which is a pretty natural thing to do,
37:07
Anne Lester: ask me how I know.
37:09
Anne Lester: Right?
37:09
Anne Lester: When you decide to spend less, you're suddenly feeling pain.
37:13
Lisa Nichols: Right.
37:14
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
37:14
Lisa Nichols: I do think you're right, though.
37:16
Lisa Nichols: I mean, it's many times directly proportional.
37:19
Lisa Nichols: If your income goes up, then your spending goes up.
37:22
Lisa Nichols: You get a bigger house or you get a different car.
37:24
Lisa Nichols: Right?
37:25
Lisa Nichols: Let's let's go to that twenty five year old, thirty five year old.
37:30
Lisa Nichols: So say a twenty five year old is just starting out.
37:33
Lisa Nichols: What is the and I think I know what you're gonna say about this,
37:36
Lisa Nichols: but what's the single most important habit that you can establish
37:40
Lisa Nichols: right now?
37:41
Anne Lester: Have some savings automatically deducted from your paycheck.
37:45
Anne Lester: If you are fortunate enough to work for an employer who has a four
37:48
Anne Lester: zero one k plan or another kind of workplace pension, depending on where you
37:51
Anne Lester: work, there might be different might be a four zero three b or, you
37:53
Anne Lester: know, they're four fifty seven.
37:55
Anne Lester: There are different names for these things, but, basically, they all work the same
37:58
Anne Lester: way.
37:59
Anne Lester: They you can have some money deducted from your paycheck.
38:03
Anne Lester: Most employers will match that.
38:06
Anne Lester: You probably got signed up automatically when you went to work for them.
38:09
Anne Lester: It's probably going into a target date fund.
38:11
Anne Lester: Don't mess with it.
38:12
Anne Lester: Leave it alone.
38:13
Anne Lester: Just leave it alone.
38:14
Anne Lester: Let it go.
38:16
Anne Lester: You also need to be and this is maybe even more important,
38:20
Anne Lester: especially if you don't have a workplace savings program.
38:23
Anne Lester: You need to be simultaneously starting an emergency savings fund.
38:26
Anne Lester: That also needs to come out of your paycheck automatically.
38:29
Anne Lester: It isn't something that you think, do I have any money left over this
38:33
Anne Lester: month?
38:35
Anne Lester: It's one of the first things you do.
38:36
Anne Lester: It's a bill putting that money into your savings account.
38:39
Anne Lester: Why?
38:39
Anne Lester: Because you need three to six months living expenses tucked
38:44
Anne Lester: away in a rainy day savings fund, hopefully earning high yield interest.
38:47
Anne Lester: Three and a half, four percent would be great right now.
38:51
Anne Lester: Because that's what you're gonna use when you need the new set of ideally,
38:54
Anne Lester: you know you're gonna need new tires every once in a while and you've
38:56
Anne Lester: already budgeted.
38:57
Anne Lester: But if you haven't, that comes out of your emergency savings.
39:00
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
39:01
Anne Lester: Medical expense, unexpected, comes out of that.
39:04
Anne Lester: God forbid you lose your job.
39:06
Anne Lester: You get your hours cut.
39:07
Anne Lester: Right?
39:08
Anne Lester: You need something to tide you over.
39:09
Anne Lester: That's why you need that fund.
39:10
Anne Lester: It's the thing that's gonna stop you from tipping over into catastrophe.
39:15
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
39:17
Lisa Nichols: Well, I mean, I think this is a big one too.
39:20
Lisa Nichols: Anne, let's think about millennials.
39:24
Lisa Nichols: What what would you tell them if they feel so crushed
39:28
Lisa Nichols: by student debt?
39:31
Anne Lester: Yeah.
39:32
Anne Lester: Student debt
39:35
Anne Lester: is such a burden for so many people.
39:37
Anne Lester: And I think I've been reading stories in the newspapers now about
39:41
Anne Lester: people graduating who just the jobs that they assumed would be there that are
39:44
Anne Lester: gonna like, the whole reason you went to college are just not there or
39:47
Anne Lester: not at the pay rate that they had all assumed they would get.
39:49
Anne Lester: And that is Right.
39:50
Anne Lester: That is a massive societal problem.
39:54
Anne Lester: Again, it's it's not nice.
39:57
Anne Lester: You have to figure out what you need to do to
40:01
Anne Lester: try to live within your means.
40:03
Anne Lester: And it is not I mean, I've been there.
40:04
Anne Lester: Right?
40:05
Anne Lester: Like the chicken story.
40:06
Anne Lester: Like, yeah, you clean the chicken.
40:07
Anne Lester: You have roommates.
40:09
Anne Lester: You drive
40:11
Anne Lester: as beat up an old car as you can afford to drive because you
40:14
Anne Lester: don't want it to be so beat up that you're repairing it all the
40:17
Anne Lester: time.
40:17
Anne Lester: Right?
40:17
Anne Lester: There's a fine line there between between really old and a junker and needing
40:21
Anne Lester: falling apart versus, like, yeah.
40:22
Anne Lester: You buy your first car that you buy should be three or four years
40:26
Anne Lester: old.
40:27
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
40:27
Anne Lester: Right?
40:27
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
40:28
Anne Lester: New enough to be reliable, not brand new because it will depreciate right
40:32
Anne Lester: when you drive it off the lot, and there's just no point in doing
40:34
Anne Lester: that.
40:34
Anne Lester: You're just burning money when you do that.
40:36
Anne Lester: Right?
40:36
Anne Lester: So buy a decent used car.
40:39
Anne Lester: You gotta get comfortable for many
40:43
Anne Lester: kids who've been to college, certainly not for first gen kids who are, like,
40:47
Anne Lester: you know, coming out of a a much more, insecure financial environment.
40:51
Anne Lester: But I think I see this with our own friends and their kids.
40:54
Anne Lester: Like, you're if you come from a nice upper middle class background,
40:59
Anne Lester: you're not gonna have your parents' lifestyle when you get out of school and
41:01
Anne Lester: you're paying your own way.
41:02
Anne Lester: You're just not.
41:03
Anne Lester: And Yes.
41:04
Anne Lester: Why do we think that that's not okay?
41:06
Anne Lester: Like, of course, that's fine.
41:09
Anne Lester: But, yeah, like, maybe you don't have central air conditioning and you have to
41:12
Anne Lester: share a bathroom.
41:13
Anne Lester: Like, yeah, that's that's okay.
41:15
Anne Lester: Like, yes.
41:16
Anne Lester: That's what you do when you start out.
41:18
Anne Lester: That's kind of the whole getting used to getting you know?
41:21
Anne Lester: So so I do think it's
41:22
Lisa Nichols: called getting started.
41:25
Anne Lester: I do think that as a culture,
41:28
Anne Lester: we become uncomfortable,
41:31
Anne Lester: right, with this notion that we get uncomfortable sometimes.
41:34
Anne Lester: Like, it's okay to be a little bit uncomfortable.
41:36
Anne Lester: Like, I think a good analogy is you don't want people to suffer
41:41
Anne Lester: or sacrifice, but a little bit of discomfort.
41:44
Anne Lester: I mean, it's something I consciously try to work on, especially with money.
41:47
Anne Lester: Like, you know, a middle seat in the back of the plane will still
41:50
Anne Lester: get you there.
41:51
Anne Lester: It's not comfortable.
41:53
Lisa Nichols: Do you
41:53
Anne Lester: ever even spend thirty nine bucks on a I don't know.
41:56
Anne Lester: If you don't have it, don't spend the money on more legroom.
41:58
Anne Lester: I just don't.
41:59
Anne Lester: You don't need to.
41:59
Anne Lester: You can sit in the middle of the plane in the back.
42:01
Anne Lester: I just did it the other day.
42:04
Anne Lester: Yeah.
42:04
Anne Lester: You know, it happens.
42:05
Anne Lester: It's uncomfortable.
42:06
Anne Lester: It's not terrible.
42:09
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
42:09
Lisa Nichols: Well and and too and I think, you know, in our generation
42:13
Lisa Nichols: I mean, I I know that my my mom and dad wanted me to
42:17
Lisa Nichols: have it better than they had it, and I think we're kinda the same
42:20
Lisa Nichols: way, but there are lessons that I think
42:25
Lisa Nichols: sometimes you only learn in the struggle.
42:28
Anne Lester: I
42:28
Lisa Nichols: You only learn in the struggle, and don't remove always remove
42:32
Lisa Nichols: the struggle.
42:33
Lisa Nichols: Right?
42:34
Lisa Nichols: Because there are things you're gonna learn there.
42:37
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
42:37
Anne Lester: I could not agree with it more.
42:39
Anne Lester: And and I I think
42:43
Anne Lester: understanding how to live with discomfort and uncertainty is one of
42:47
Anne Lester: the most important things we can do and one of the most important gifts
42:50
Anne Lester: we can give our children.
42:52
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
42:52
Anne Lester: And it's really hard as a parent to do that.
42:55
Anne Lester: Right?
42:55
Anne Lester: It's one of the most difficult thing you things you can do.
42:58
Anne Lester: But I think that's how we learn and become resilient.
43:00
Anne Lester: And, like, the the impulse to to make it all go away because you
43:04
Anne Lester: can is is up to a certain point, not a healthy one.
43:09
Lisa Nichols: You gotta resist that.
43:10
Lisa Nichols: You've got to resist that.
43:12
Lisa Nichols: So,
43:14
Lisa Nichols: well okay.
43:15
Lisa Nichols: So there is a perspective out there called FIRE, financial independence,
43:19
Lisa Nichols: retiring early.
43:20
Lisa Nichols: There's a movement.
43:21
Lisa Nichols: I mean, what what's your perspective on that, Anne?
43:24
Anne Lester: I think it's a incredibly laudable
43:29
Anne Lester: and admirable goal to try to accumulate enough
43:34
Anne Lester: assets to give yourself choices, and that is in fact what we do when
43:37
Anne Lester: we save for retirement.
43:38
Anne Lester: Right?
43:38
Anne Lester: I wanna be able to have some choice over when I leave the workforce
43:41
Anne Lester: and what I do afterwards.
43:44
Anne Lester: One of the things I think can be quite challenging about fire,
43:48
Anne Lester: and I don't think people are really doing it the way they were, you
43:52
Anne Lester: know, five years ago, seven years ago, ten years ago, is I'm gonna live
43:56
Anne Lester: on fifty thousand dollars a year, and I'm gonna save everything else.
44:00
Anne Lester: And I'm gonna maybe it's sixty five now with inflation, whatever.
44:03
Anne Lester: But and I am gonna never let my lifestyle get any better, and I
44:07
Anne Lester: am gonna just hunker down so that I can quit.
44:13
Anne Lester: So much of the fire movement is built on the assumption
44:17
Anne Lester: that you can rely on something called the four percent rule.
44:21
Anne Lester: Right?
44:21
Anne Lester: So your whole goal is to save up a million bucks.
44:23
Anne Lester: You'll get forty thousand dollars.
44:25
Anne Lester: You ingest that for inflation going forward, and then you live on that for
44:27
Anne Lester: the rest of your life.
44:28
Anne Lester: Okay.
44:29
Anne Lester: I can tell you, and this is one of the patents we got, like,
44:32
Anne Lester: that four percent rule doesn't work a lot of the time.
44:36
Anne Lester: Most of the time, it doesn't work.
44:38
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
44:39
Anne Lester: Most of the time, it doesn't work because you can actually afford to spend
44:42
Anne Lester: more than four percent.
44:43
Anne Lester: If you want your money to last thirty years, that's a really important thing.
44:46
Anne Lester: The four percent rule is designed to say, how much money can you afford
44:50
Anne Lester: to take out if you need your money to last thirty years?
44:54
Anne Lester: Okay.
44:54
Anne Lester: So, a, if you're retiring at sixty five, that's already getting a little dicey
44:58
Anne Lester: these days because a lot of people, you know, live longer than ninety five.
45:01
Anne Lester: So is thirty years the right number?
45:02
Anne Lester: If you're doing this at thirty five or forty, you got sixty years to
45:06
Anne Lester: worry about.
45:06
Anne Lester: And that four percent rule starts feeling very scary to me.
45:10
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
45:11
Anne Lester: If we have another run of two or three or four
45:15
Anne Lester: bad years in the stock market,
45:18
Anne Lester: and you keep pulling money out, you're gonna end up with zero really
45:22
Anne Lester: fast.
45:25
Anne Lester: If you don't pull money out, you're not gonna have any money to live
45:28
Anne Lester: on.
45:29
Anne Lester: You're gonna need to go back to work in an environment where
45:33
Anne Lester: the economy is terrible and you haven't been working at a sort of, you
45:36
Anne Lester: know, w two paycheck y job for a long time.
45:39
Anne Lester: That is not a good place to find yourself
45:42
Lisa Nichols: in need of it.
45:43
Lisa Nichols: Right.
45:44
Anne Lester: So so to me, it's not so much that it's a terrible thing to
45:47
Anne Lester: do.
45:47
Anne Lester: I think anything that gets you motivated to save and think about the future
45:50
Anne Lester: and gives you choices is awesome.
45:52
Anne Lester: What I worry about is people that do it because they hate their job
45:56
Anne Lester: and wanna quit.
45:57
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
45:58
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
45:59
Lisa Nichols: It's like
46:00
Anne Lester: That's the old
46:02
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
46:02
Lisa Nichols: That old adage, don't run from something.
46:05
Lisa Nichols: You know, if you're gonna be leaving something, make sure you're running to something
46:09
Lisa Nichols: and, you know, that there's purpose there.
46:12
Lisa Nichols: Right?
46:12
Lisa Nichols: And maybe you're wanting to pivot or something like that.
46:15
Lisa Nichols: But, yeah, don't don't be running from something.
46:19
Lisa Nichols: But
46:20
Anne Lester: You'll just take that same problem with you wherever you go.
46:22
Anne Lester: Right?
46:22
Anne Lester: I I love I love that.
46:23
Anne Lester: I love that.
46:24
Anne Lester: I love what you just said.
46:25
Anne Lester: And Yeah.
46:26
Anne Lester: And if your intention is to continue to work
46:31
Anne Lester: but not in a formal job and you've got skills that you keep maintaining,
46:36
Anne Lester: you just don't have a, you know, dependable, you know, four zero one k
46:39
Anne Lester: plan, paycheck health insurance let's not forget you gotta pay for health insurance.
46:44
Anne Lester: Yes.
46:45
Anne Lester: That's great.
46:46
Anne Lester: But but then you you know, that that's not really fire.
46:49
Anne Lester: That's having enough of a backstop that you feel confident enough to pivot,
46:53
Anne Lester: as you say, and embrace a different kind of career.
46:57
Lisa Nichols: Right.
46:57
Lisa Nichols: For sure.
46:58
Lisa Nichols: For sure.
46:59
Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
46:59
Lisa Nichols: I've got so much more here that I want to talk about, but, we're
47:03
Lisa Nichols: running out of time.
47:04
Lisa Nichols: And so I'm just gonna ask you just a couple let me just a
47:07
Lisa Nichols: little lightning round here, and then I wanna talk about something extra.
47:11
Lisa Nichols: So for you, I mean, you're a brilliant woman.
47:14
Lisa Nichols: There's no doubt about that.
47:15
Lisa Nichols: How do you continue to grow?
47:17
Lisa Nichols: What do you read?
47:18
Lisa Nichols: What do you read?
47:19
Lisa Nichols: I mean, you write books, but what do you read?
47:21
Anne Lester: I just got this book today.
47:25
Anne Lester: Called Joyce Banfield.
47:26
Anne Lester: Woman.
47:27
Anne Lester: Yeah.
47:27
Anne Lester: From a woman that I had the privilege of doing a speaker's class with.
47:31
Anne Lester: She's brilliant, doctor Carrie Burnight.
47:34
Anne Lester: And I can't wait to read it.
47:35
Anne Lester: I mean, I'm a voracious reader.
47:37
Anne Lester: I always wanna be learning.
47:39
Anne Lester: I think the message in this book, which is that it's about your attitude
47:43
Anne Lester: as much as anything else, and you can approach,
47:46
Anne Lester: I mean, it is kind of like about making lemonade.
47:49
Anne Lester: So I mean, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I think there's
47:53
Anne Lester: gonna be so many nuggets of wisdom I learned here.
47:55
Anne Lester: I keep doing new things.
47:57
Anne Lester: Like, I'm still trying to learn how to ski.
47:59
Anne Lester: I go on long walks.
48:01
Anne Lester: I pick up new hobbies.
48:03
Anne Lester: I am a lifelong learner, and I love taking lessons and taking
48:07
Anne Lester: classes and learning.
48:08
Anne Lester: And I think that just keeps me fresh.
48:10
Anne Lester: So that's to me a
48:11
Lisa Nichols: key.
48:13
Lisa Nichols: I love that.
48:13
Lisa Nichols: I love that.
48:15
Lisa Nichols: Well, let me ask you this.
48:16
Lisa Nichols: What do you believe is this something extra that every leader needs,
48:20
Lisa Nichols: and what is your something extra?
48:25
Anne Lester: It's hard to boil it down to one thing.
48:27
Anne Lester: I think mine is curiosity and humility.
48:32
Anne Lester: Mhmm.
48:33
Anne Lester: I think I'm always curious, and I'm always, I think,
48:37
Anne Lester: a kind and healthy skeptic.
48:40
Anne Lester: I think skepticism can be unhealthy and mean, but I'm always
48:44
Anne Lester: like, why is that true?
48:45
Anne Lester: Why do you say that?
48:46
Anne Lester: Why is it working this way?
48:48
Anne Lester: Why do you assume that's the right thing?
48:50
Anne Lester: And and that translates for me into making sure I ask the right question.
48:54
Lisa Nichols: Right.
48:55
Lisa Nichols: Right.
48:55
Anne Lester: Right.
48:55
Anne Lester: Right.
48:55
Anne Lester: Right.
48:55
Anne Lester: Because if you don't ask the right question, you're gonna get your wrong answer.
48:58
Anne Lester: Right?
48:59
Lisa Nichols: That's right.
49:00
Lisa Nichols: Exactly.
49:01
Anne Lester: And I think, you know, for leaders, it's it's that can
49:05
Anne Lester: be a a path to success.
49:07
Anne Lester: I guess when I look at successful leaders, most of them are pretty deeply
49:11
Anne Lester: humbly, humble and empathetic.
49:14
Anne Lester: And I think it's the human
49:17
Anne Lester: that I think makes us discuss your leader.
49:19
Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
49:21
Lisa Nichols: Well, Anne, I told you that, you know, my book is coming out, something
49:24
Anne Lester: extra wait.
49:25
Lisa Nichols: And explores twenty three different traits.
49:27
Lisa Nichols: The very first trait is humility
49:30
Lisa Nichols: because I I do.
49:32
Lisa Nichols: I think it's so,
49:35
Lisa Nichols: I think it's so imperative.
49:37
Lisa Nichols: Right?
49:37
Lisa Nichols: Because that's there's so much that we can go into there, but I love
49:41
Lisa Nichols: that that you said humility.
49:44
Lisa Nichols: Well, this has been so good.
49:46
Lisa Nichols: I appreciate you making the time.
49:47
Lisa Nichols: I cannot wait for our listeners to learn from you.
49:50
Lisa Nichols: Listeners, go pick up Anne's book, Your Best Financial Life.
49:54
Lisa Nichols: Give it to I'm just thinking it would make a great
49:59
Lisa Nichols: graduation present too.
50:00
Lisa Nichols: I mean, at any age.
50:02
Lisa Nichols: Right?
50:02
Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
50:02
Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
50:03
Lisa Nichols: Let's get our kids started young with good habits and good
50:07
Lisa Nichols: practices around money management.
50:09
Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
50:09
Lisa Nichols: Well, thank you so much for having me.
50:11
Anne Lester: It's been a fabulous conversation, and I can't wait to read your book.
50:13
Anne Lester: So looking forward to it.
50:15
Lisa Nichols: Well, it was wonderful spending time with you.
50:17
Lisa Nichols: So thanks again.
50:18
Anne Lester: Thank you.
50:19
Announcer: Thank you for listening to today's show.
50:21
Announcer: Something Thank you.
50:23
Announcer: Thank you for listening to today's show.
50:24
Announcer: Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production.
50:25
Announcer: Copyright Technology Partners Inc, two thousand and nineteen.
50:28
Announcer: For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit tpi dot co
50:33
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50:34
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50:38
Announcer: you listen.