Latest / The Real News Podcast / Want to Save the World? Start by Unionizing Your Workplace

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Want to Save the World? Start by Unionizing Your Workplace · The Real News Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: All right, welcome everyone to Working People, a podcast about
0:10
Speaker 1: the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today.
0:15
Speaker 1: My name is Maximilian Alvarez, and today we are talking
0:19
Speaker 1: about labor unions, why they are important, why they have
0:23
Speaker 1: always been important for working people, and why they are
0:26
Speaker 1: more important now than ever. and why you should be
0:29
Speaker 1: part of one. In their new book, Fired Up About Unions,
0:33
Speaker 1: veteran labor educator, organizer, and writer Cole Rockharts writes, quote,
0:39
Speaker 1: we are living in a pivotal moment in labor history.
0:42
Speaker 1: At a time when corporations have more power, profit, and
0:46
Speaker 1: political influence than ever before, workers are leading inspiring union
0:51
Speaker 1: organizing campaigns and taking on bosses to win big. These
0:55
Speaker 1: workers are fighting not just for themselves, but for their
0:58
Speaker 1: communities too. Their struggles reveal that everyday people can unite,
1:03
Speaker 1: change their conditions, and build better workplaces and a better world.
1:09
Speaker 2: End quote.
1:10
Speaker 1: So this is what we're going to be talking about today.
1:12
Speaker 1: And we're really basing this conversation on Cole Rockhart's great
1:16
Speaker 1: new book, which everyone should go read. You can find
1:19
Speaker 1: it using the links in the show notes for this episode.
1:22
Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful to have Cole Rockhart themselves joining
1:25
Speaker 1: us on the show today. So Cole, Welcome. Congratulations on
1:30
Speaker 1: this important book. Could you tell our listeners a little
1:33
Speaker 1: bit about the book and where it came from?
1:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Thanks, Maximilian. It's really exciting also to hear someone
1:40
Speaker 3: else read it because it's just been in the ether
1:42
Speaker 3: for such a long time. So thanks for that. It's
1:45
Speaker 3: very cool. So Fired Up About Unions, which again, you
1:49
Speaker 3: can get at BTL, Between the Lines in Canada or
1:52
Speaker 3: AK Press in the U.S., or your local library, give
1:56
Speaker 3: it an order there, really examines kind of what unions are,
2:00
Speaker 3: demystifies the myths around unions, that we don't need them,
2:06
Speaker 3: that they're outdated, that young workers can't be organized, or
2:11
Speaker 3: Different types of workers can't be organized and really lays
2:15
Speaker 3: the groundwork of why unions have become so weak in
2:21
Speaker 3: our respective countries in Canada and the US and talks
2:24
Speaker 3: about why young people can be the antidote to all
2:27
Speaker 3: of the problems facing work and really unions themselves. Unions
2:33
Speaker 3: aren't perfect, but if we take the view that unions
2:37
Speaker 3: are made up of people and we recognize that our
2:40
Speaker 3: coworkers are just regular people and we all ultimately want
2:43
Speaker 3: the same things, and that's higher wages, protections at work,
2:49
Speaker 3: health and safety on the job, and better, that's the
2:53
Speaker 3: great place where we can start to come together and
2:55
Speaker 3: change not only our individual situations, but as I say
3:00
Speaker 3: in the book, our communities and even beyond.
3:03
Speaker 2: Hell yeah.
3:04
Speaker 1: And we're going to be talking about how to do that,
3:06
Speaker 1: how to do better, get better and fight better from
3:10
Speaker 1: the shop floor and beyond. And, you know, I'm so
3:14
Speaker 1: grateful with Cole's help that we've pulled together an incredible
3:18
Speaker 1: panel of folks here, union organizers and members from across
3:24
Speaker 1: Canada and the U.S. And we're going to dig into
3:27
Speaker 1: all this now. But first, I wanted to ask if
3:29
Speaker 1: you all could introduce yourselves. to our listeners.
3:32
Speaker 4: My name is Hassan Hosseini. My day job is a
3:37
Speaker 4: national negotiator with the Public Service Alliance of Canada, which
3:40
Speaker 4: is the largest federal public sector union in Canada. As such,
3:45
Speaker 4: I'm also a unionized member of Unifor Local 2025. Unifor
3:49
Speaker 4: is a merger of a couple of private sector unions
3:52
Speaker 4: in Canada, one of them being the Canadian Auto Workers
3:55
Speaker 4: that split from the American Auto Workers Union back in
3:59
Speaker 4: the 80s. And I am also a member of the
4:03
Speaker 4: National Steering Committee of Labour for Palestine Canada. I've been
4:06
Speaker 4: active in social justice and labour movement for 30 plus,
4:12
Speaker 4: maybe more years.
4:13
Speaker 5: Happy to be here. Thank you.
4:14
Speaker 2: Hi, folks.
4:15
Speaker 6: My name is Tina Oh. My pronouns are she, her.
4:18
Speaker 6: I'm joining in from Halifax, Nova Scotia, here in Eastern Canada.
4:23
Speaker 6: My role is Organising Coordinator with Service Employees International Union
4:27
Speaker 6: Local 2. We're the only national SEIU division in Canada.
4:31
Speaker 6: But I also have a role as vice president for
4:34
Speaker 6: Eastern Canada. So the region is all of Atlantic Canada, Newfoundland, PEI,
4:38
Speaker 6: New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia.
4:40
Speaker 3: Really happy to be here.
4:41
Speaker 2: Hey, y'all.
4:42
Speaker 7: I'm Alex Raymond.
4:43
Speaker 8: I am a mental health worker out of Richmond, Virginia,
4:47
Speaker 8: United States. And I am just a regular worker organizer.
4:52
Speaker 8: Very new to the labor space, but very fired up.
4:56
Speaker 7: To be here.
4:57
Speaker 3: My name is Cole Rocker. My pronouns are they, them.
5:00
Speaker 3: And I am a longtime union staffer, although the veteran
5:08
Speaker 3: brand doesn't sit well when Hassan's in the room. I've
5:12
Speaker 3: been working for labor unions for the past 10 years,
5:16
Speaker 3: and that's been in Canada and the U.S. And I'm
5:19
Speaker 3: now a labor educator at a healthcare union in Los Angeles.
5:23
Speaker 3: And I am the author of the forthcoming book, Fired
5:26
Speaker 3: Up About Unions, which is about why young people can
5:30
Speaker 3: change the working world and the labor movement.
5:33
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
5:33
Speaker 1: So maybe we need an updated taxonomy. We got veterans here,
5:37
Speaker 1: and then we got legends, you know, with Hassan. So,
5:40
Speaker 1: you know, we got the full spectrum here, baby. And
5:43
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to have all of you on and
5:46
Speaker 1: to hear all of your perspectives on, you know, this
5:49
Speaker 1: important subject. So I want to dive right in and
5:52
Speaker 1: ask y'all, like, what have unions meant to you over
5:56
Speaker 1: your lifetime?
5:57
Speaker 2: Like what did you.
5:58
Speaker 1: Know or not know about unions before being part of one?
6:02
Speaker 1: And I'm asking that as someone who does a labor
6:05
Speaker 1: show now, but knew jack shit about unions for most
6:08
Speaker 1: of my life.
6:10
Speaker 7: I kind of wanted, uh, just directly responding to that.
6:13
Speaker 8: Like that was sort of my experience that, that labor
6:17
Speaker 8: organizing in mental health, that that's really not a thing.
6:22
Speaker 8: But over the years that I've been in this industry,
6:26
Speaker 8: almost 15 years coming up this November, you know, we
6:30
Speaker 8: just see wages decrease, the amount of patients or clients
6:34
Speaker 8: that we're responsible for increase, expectations going up while benefits
6:40
Speaker 8: go down. And a lot of us kind of let
6:42
Speaker 8: just silently accept that. We get into this line of
6:45
Speaker 8: work because we care. And it almost feels like a
6:48
Speaker 8: betrayal to the work that we're so committed to, to
6:52
Speaker 8: even think.
6:53
Speaker 7: That better is possible. But it had always been a discussion.
6:57
Speaker 8: And growing up, my dad, he was an organizer with
7:01
Speaker 8: SEIU in Boston during his residency. And he would always
7:07
Speaker 8: tell me this story when he... you know, was laid
7:10
Speaker 8: off for labor organizing, that it was just the proudest
7:14
Speaker 8: moment of his professional life when all of his co-workers
7:17
Speaker 8: came to his shitty Boston apartment and they essentially shut
7:22
Speaker 8: the hospital down. There was a lot of anxiety about
7:24
Speaker 8: what that would do to patients, but there was a
7:27
Speaker 8: lot of camaraderie. And that's something that's missing nowadays. Like,
7:31
Speaker 8: we're struggling to get by, and.
7:34
Speaker 8: We deserve better. And I think that sort of bubbled
7:38
Speaker 8: up over the last couple of years. And a group
7:41
Speaker 8: of us got together a couple of years back and
7:43
Speaker 8: we started organizing from the ground up.
7:46
Speaker 7: Literally Googling how to make union.
7:49
Speaker 8: And we came into contact with a lot of people
7:52
Speaker 8: that have a lot of expertise and they got, because
7:55
Speaker 8: we needed all the help we can get. And we
7:58
Speaker 8: went from zero union density to more than zero and
8:02
Speaker 8: growing each and every month. And we formed a union
8:06
Speaker 8: here in Richmond, Virginia with Teamsters Local 322. And now
8:09
Speaker 8: there are unions with United Automotive Workers within our industry,
8:15
Speaker 8: as well as National Union of Healthcare Workers and United
8:19
Speaker 8: Food and Commercial Workers. And we've had to learn what
8:21
Speaker 8: all those acronyms mean and what they can mean for
8:25
Speaker 8: people in our field.
8:27
Speaker 7: And it's been a huge thing.
8:29
Speaker 8: But from my perspective growing up, I'd always thought that
8:32
Speaker 8: was such an important thing to do, but just never
8:35
Speaker 8: really knew how to go about doing it.
8:37
Speaker 4: From my experience way back when I first became unionized,
8:44
Speaker 4: and I think it's still with us today, the thinking
8:48
Speaker 4: about unions is that it's only about money. It's only
8:51
Speaker 4: going to give you, put more money in your pocket
8:54
Speaker 4: by increasing your wages from what you had before you
8:57
Speaker 4: were unionized. And to me, the thing that struck me,
9:03
Speaker 4: and I think it's still with me today and in
9:05
Speaker 4: the organizing campaigns that I was involved in, It is
9:09
Speaker 4: really important for us to recognize and talk to workers
9:13
Speaker 4: about the fact that it's about increasing your power in
9:16
Speaker 4: the workplace. It is about working class empowerment. And it
9:21
Speaker 4: is about some of the things that Cole just rhymed
9:25
Speaker 4: off with respect to health and safety. with respect to
9:29
Speaker 4: being valued in the workplace, giving you a voice on
9:32
Speaker 4: so many different committees, and taking away the power, the
9:37
Speaker 4: exclusive power that bosses have without a union.
9:41
Speaker 5: So I didn't know that at the beginning.
9:42
Speaker 4: I came in, I thought, okay, my wage will go
9:44
Speaker 4: up a little bit, not knowing that it's going to
9:46
Speaker 4: give me so much more empowerment, both individually and as
9:50
Speaker 4: a collective within the workplace, And that is something that
9:53
Speaker 4: opened my eyes to huge possibilities for that particular workplace
9:59
Speaker 4: I was in. but for the working class generally. And
10:02
Speaker 4: that lesson is still with me up to this point.
10:06
Speaker 4: I think things are getting even worse in terms of
10:09
Speaker 4: capitalist bosses' propaganda that we can give you a little
10:13
Speaker 4: bit of a bump in your wages, you don't have
10:15
Speaker 4: to go to unions, because they know that when you unionize,
10:18
Speaker 4: you have more power in the workplace.
10:20
Speaker 5: And that's what scares the shit out of them.
10:22
Speaker 6: Hassan, I'm just going to piggyback off that because I
10:24
Speaker 6: think it's... That last point you just mentioned about how
10:28
Speaker 6: non-union workers are still gaining and benefiting off the wins
10:31
Speaker 6: of union workers is so relevant. And I think that's
10:34
Speaker 6: how I want to answer this question. It's going to
10:36
Speaker 6: take me a second to get there, but I'll get there.
10:37
Speaker 6: So my family moved to Edmonton, Alberta when I was
10:41
Speaker 6: two years old. My sister was five and it was
10:43
Speaker 6: just my mom and my dad. There was no other
10:45
Speaker 6: kind of family support systems that my parents had in Canada,
10:49
Speaker 6: nor in Edmonton. So that, you know, like many non-economic
10:52
Speaker 6: migrants that meant working, you know, traditionally low wage service jobs.
10:58
Speaker 6: My parents have never worked a union job in their
11:00
Speaker 6: working careers in this country. And one of my dad's
11:05
Speaker 6: longest held jobs was as a housekeeper and a janitor
11:09
Speaker 6: at the Western Hotel. And that was a non-union job.
11:12
Speaker 6: But the reason why that's relevant is that that job,
11:17
Speaker 6: even though it was non-union, It was the first job
11:20
Speaker 6: that my dad had that gave us health benefits. It
11:23
Speaker 6: was the job that ended up getting us permanent residency
11:26
Speaker 6: so that we could stay in the country. And the
11:29
Speaker 6: reason why, of course, that connects to unions is because
11:32
Speaker 6: the work of the private sector hotel unions that have
11:35
Speaker 6: raised the industry standards to the point that these non-union
11:39
Speaker 6: hotels cannot recruit workers without offering health benefits, without offering
11:44
Speaker 6: them a pathway to permanent residency, right? And so, you know,
11:48
Speaker 6: I think about that job, especially now that I work
11:51
Speaker 6: for a janitor's union, SEIU Local 2, half of our
11:54
Speaker 6: membership is janitors, private sector contracted out janitors. And now
11:59
Speaker 6: that I'm in this role and I think back to
12:02
Speaker 6: my childhood and the horrors really that my parents had
12:06
Speaker 6: to kind of face in their working careers, I know
12:09
Speaker 6: absolutely without a doubt in my mind that our lives
12:13
Speaker 6: would have been better had my dad had a union
12:15
Speaker 6: at that hotel or any union really. um and at
12:19
Speaker 6: the same time i also can see how our lives
12:23
Speaker 6: still greatly benefited from the wins of the working class
12:28
Speaker 6: that have progressed the labor movement to the point where
12:31
Speaker 6: non-union jobs are still offering health benefits and whatnot so
12:34
Speaker 6: i just wanted to leave that there.
12:36
Speaker 3: I think for me it's a bit of a combination
12:38
Speaker 3: of all these things um as my you know co-podcasters
12:45
Speaker 3: have just said like A union can be the difference
12:48
Speaker 3: between having health care or not, having benefits or not.
12:54
Speaker 3: When I was younger, I didn't realize that my mom
12:57
Speaker 3: was unionized. She was a teacher for many years before
13:00
Speaker 3: she retired. And it wasn't until I started getting involved
13:05
Speaker 3: in my student movement. And in Canada, the student union
13:09
Speaker 3: system is quite different than in the U.S. And I
13:12
Speaker 3: think the U.S. should absolutely steal this idea from Canada.
13:16
Speaker 3: But many of our student organizations that fight for lower
13:20
Speaker 3: tuition fees or free tuition or more rights for international
13:24
Speaker 3: students for different campaigns of equity on campuses are unionized.
13:30
Speaker 3: So my first foray into having a union was starting
13:35
Speaker 3: to work at the student union and run all these
13:38
Speaker 3: campaigns as a student organizer. And so it wasn't until
13:42
Speaker 3: I started getting involved that I had this conversation with
13:45
Speaker 3: my mom. about, oh, you know, there's this union. And
13:52
Speaker 3: I was told to go to a meeting because there's
13:54
Speaker 3: free pizza. I wanted free pizza. And she said, oh, yeah,
13:58
Speaker 3: I've been involved in my union. I was a shop steward.
14:02
Speaker 3: I was like, what the hell is a shop steward?
14:05
Speaker 3: What does that even mean? And it's essentially the person
14:08
Speaker 3: that represents the workplace while they're actually working in there.
14:12
Speaker 3: And you can go to them with questions about your contract.
14:16
Speaker 3: or different issues you're having. And I said, what do you, like, what?
14:21
Speaker 3: You were a shop steward? She was like, yeah, I
14:23
Speaker 3: used to carry the book. And the book is the contract.
14:28
Speaker 3: And I said, I didn't know that. She said, yeah,
14:30
Speaker 3: I've been out on strike. I've been on the picket line.
14:33
Speaker 3: And so it was years later that I realized, like,
14:36
Speaker 3: oh my God, my parent has been a union member,
14:40
Speaker 3: has fought for these things. And it's because of her
14:44
Speaker 3: that I have the life that I have.
14:46
Speaker 1: It's always so fascinating to me to hear stories like
14:52
Speaker 1: yours and the stories that folks have shared with me
14:55
Speaker 1: on this show for, you know, the past nine seasons, right?
14:59
Speaker 1: I always tell folks that, you know, I am endlessly
15:02
Speaker 1: fascinated in the stories of our fellow workers who take
15:06
Speaker 1: that step to do something to change their conditions because
15:10
Speaker 1: I lived most of my life not knowing that that
15:13
Speaker 1: was an option. You know, like most people in this country,
15:17
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the U.S.
15:18
Speaker 3: Here.
15:19
Speaker 1: You know, when I had crappy jobs, whether they were
15:21
Speaker 1: in service or, you know, factories, warehouses, retail, I thought
15:26
Speaker 1: I only had two options, right? If the job sucked,
15:29
Speaker 1: I could either just stay, grin and bear it or
15:33
Speaker 1: leave and try to find something better. I didn't know
15:36
Speaker 1: there was a secret third thing you could do and like,
15:39
Speaker 1: you know, you know, band together with your coworkers and
15:42
Speaker 1: fight back and stay in fight to improve things. And
15:46
Speaker 1: so to me, anyone who takes that step, especially in
15:51
Speaker 1: a country where working people are so routinely reminded and
15:56
Speaker 1: conditioned to believe that we are powerless, anyone who says
16:01
Speaker 1: otherwise and does otherwise to me is a hero. And
16:05
Speaker 1: not just that, but the way it changes your perspective
16:08
Speaker 1: on things, to take that step, to organize, to bring
16:12
Speaker 1: your boss to the bargaining table. That really changes a
16:15
Speaker 1: lot of the ways that you look at the world
16:17
Speaker 1: and yourself and the work.
16:19
Speaker 2: That you do.
16:20
Speaker 1: And I wanted to kind of turn that into a
16:22
Speaker 1: question for y'all. You talked about this a bit in
16:25
Speaker 1: the first round, but I wanted to ask if you
16:27
Speaker 1: could go a little deeper and say how it changes
16:30
Speaker 1: your life at work and beyond work. when you become
16:34
Speaker 1: part of a union or join a union drive? Like,
16:38
Speaker 1: did it change the way that you guys all look
16:40
Speaker 1: at your own work in life when you did that?
16:43
Speaker 6: For me as a young person that started labor work,
16:46
Speaker 6: I think I was 21 at the time when I
16:48
Speaker 6: first got my union job. And of course, previous to that,
16:51
Speaker 6: I was part of the student union like Cole was. And,
16:53
Speaker 6: you know, we're living in a time where obviously, you know,
16:56
Speaker 6: we can talk about all these crises that are happening,
16:59
Speaker 6: global crises to mention that. And union work really helped
17:05
Speaker 6: make the world make more.
17:07
Speaker 3: Sense, if that makes sense.
17:11
Speaker 6: And I think a lot of young people, and when
17:14
Speaker 6: I reflect back to, you know, what I was thinking
17:17
Speaker 6: through when I was 21, and I'm not saying obviously
17:19
Speaker 6: I've got it all figured out now, certainly don't, but
17:22
Speaker 6: I think a lot of young people are probably really
17:24
Speaker 6: confused and puzzled by all these kind of disparate crises
17:28
Speaker 6: when obviously they're all interconnected. And maybe we could even
17:30
Speaker 6: say that they are interconnected. But it wasn't really until
17:34
Speaker 6: I really immersed myself and understood how power works and
17:39
Speaker 6: the history of the gains that workers have made to
17:42
Speaker 6: really push the needle to where we are today. Things
17:45
Speaker 6: really just started to click, you know? And now when
17:48
Speaker 6: kind of a new crisis happens in the world, it's
17:51
Speaker 6: just less confusing for me. And I think that's relevant
17:54
Speaker 6: because that feeling of hopelessness, I think, really gets... reigned
18:01
Speaker 6: in when you're in a fighting union, because that fighting
18:04
Speaker 6: union is then about solutions. And it's about optimism and
18:09
Speaker 6: it's about hope. And it's also about like, yeah, we
18:13
Speaker 6: might lose, but we're just going to get back up
18:16
Speaker 6: the next day and fight again. And so that clarity
18:22
Speaker 6: really became clear when I was part of a union
18:24
Speaker 6: drive and helping workers form unions at their workplace. And
18:27
Speaker 6: seeing the transformation happen to them was so transformative for
18:31
Speaker 6: me because I'm seeing it in real time, ordinary people
18:34
Speaker 6: coming together to do extraordinary things.
18:37
Speaker 8: Yeah, Tina, hearing you say that, especially that piece about
18:41
Speaker 8: hopelessness was something that was deeply more so than I
18:44
Speaker 8: think I've even been aware of in my personal experience
18:49
Speaker 8: of work and working up until the idea that there
18:54
Speaker 8: could be something better came up in my working with
18:57
Speaker 8: this organizing that we've done recently. meeting people across the
19:01
Speaker 8: country that are fighting for change and are in the
19:03
Speaker 8: exact same position.
19:04
Speaker 7: Like we are inexperienced. We are outnumbered.
19:08
Speaker 8: Uh, we are, we are dealing with like a very
19:11
Speaker 8: effectively organized, uh, managerial group that like wants nothing more
19:15
Speaker 8: than to see us lose. Um, And then seeing people
19:20
Speaker 8: like Sean and Noah out in Massachusetts, workers out in
19:24
Speaker 8: California coming together, Jane and Colin out in Maryland, all
19:29
Speaker 8: these different people that I would not have met had
19:31
Speaker 8: it not been for this organizing work, changed a lot
19:35
Speaker 8: of that hopelessness into a deep sense of optimism that's
19:40
Speaker 8: going to be really, really hard to lose. And that,
19:43
Speaker 8: I think, is the most important way my life has
19:46
Speaker 8: changed since participating in organizing.
19:50
Speaker 7: And I see it at home, at work.
19:53
Speaker 8: We have this current style of people coming in and
19:57
Speaker 8: out of care work and healthcare. And it's hard on us.
20:01
Speaker 8: We're job hopping a lot. But it's really, really hard
20:04
Speaker 8: on the clients that we serve. We work predominantly for
20:07
Speaker 8: little kids. And somebody comes in, they build a relationship
20:10
Speaker 8: with you. And then you can't afford to work the
20:13
Speaker 8: job anymore. You get burned out. And that's devastating for
20:19
Speaker 8: those young people. And we want to change that. And
20:23
Speaker 8: since we've started organizing, we're seeing turnover rates decrease. These
20:27
Speaker 8: people believe that better is possible. And that possibility is....
20:34
Speaker 7: Brought into existence through our collective action.
20:36
Speaker 8: Like we alone can't formulate what a solution might look like,
20:41
Speaker 8: but collectively we've found answers and we've put them into practice,
20:45
Speaker 8: not just in one location, but in lots of other locations.
20:49
Speaker 8: And we're seeing people pick up the banner with us
20:53
Speaker 8: And it's just been one of the most inspiring, if
20:57
Speaker 8: not the most profound experiences of my life. And hearing
21:01
Speaker 8: you speak on that just reminds me why I'm part
21:05
Speaker 8: of this fight.
21:07
Speaker 4: This is a really good segue because most of you
21:12
Speaker 4: have done the organizing part, right? Which is the hard
21:15
Speaker 4: part to organize workers into unions. My role as a
21:19
Speaker 4: national negotiator is that I come in to work with
21:22
Speaker 4: this newly organized group of workers to get in place
21:26
Speaker 4: a first collective agreement.
21:27
Speaker 5: Which is challenging in and of its own.
21:30
Speaker 4: But it's during the negotiations for a collective agreement, well,
21:33
Speaker 4: actually it is during the organizing drive, that you see
21:36
Speaker 4: their power and a recognition of the power that they
21:39
Speaker 4: have really come into fruition. But it is also a
21:43
Speaker 4: different kind of a very, very rewarding process when you're
21:46
Speaker 4: working with collectively with workers trying to get a new
21:50
Speaker 4: collective agreement and seeing the bosses push back to put
21:55
Speaker 4: language in collective agreements that gives them more rights, more powers,
21:59
Speaker 4: more protections, more provisions. This is where you see that
22:04
Speaker 4: they are solidifying their power in the workplace. And there's
22:08
Speaker 4: nothing like it because at times when we're negotiating new terms,
22:12
Speaker 4: and I've negotiated terms in the new collective agreement in
22:15
Speaker 4: the university sector, in the gaming industry. Right now, I
22:18
Speaker 4: have a group of firefighters in an indigenous community in
22:22
Speaker 4: southwestern Ontario that I just came back from starting negotiations
22:26
Speaker 4: with them.
22:27
Speaker 5: And you'll see that there are questions is that.
22:30
Speaker 4: What do you mean we can put language in the
22:32
Speaker 4: collective agreement that is better than the minimum standards? It's like, yes,
22:37
Speaker 4: you're organized in order to do that. Minimum standards, you're
22:40
Speaker 4: protected by it anyway. But your collective agreement relies on
22:44
Speaker 4: your power in the workplace, your power in the community.
22:47
Speaker 4: And you'll see the relationship change. with their coworkers, their
22:52
Speaker 4: relationship with the boss, their relationship within the community completely changes.
22:57
Speaker 5: It gives them the confidence. It gives them the power.
22:59
Speaker 5: It gives them.
23:01
Speaker 4: The power that comes with the fact that when they're
23:03
Speaker 4: sitting at the bargaining table, No matter what, they're equals
23:07
Speaker 4: to that boss. Of course, when the boss goes back
23:10
Speaker 4: to the workplace, they try to play games. But you
23:14
Speaker 4: cannot put back, what is that expression, the genie in
23:16
Speaker 4: a bottle or something? They've recognized their power and they're
23:20
Speaker 4: willing to take that extra steps in order to keep
23:24
Speaker 4: building on it and to demonstrate it in the workplace
23:27
Speaker 4: and outside the workplace. And there's nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing
23:31
Speaker 4: like it when work is recognized. I want to go
23:33
Speaker 4: to Tina's original point. recognize the power that they have
23:37
Speaker 4: in the workplace and in the community. And I'm privileged,
23:41
Speaker 4: I feel, that I get to work with workers to
23:45
Speaker 4: try to put together collective agreements that give them that
23:48
Speaker 4: extra power.
23:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll just pick up on something Hassan said in
23:54
Speaker 3: his current negotiations about raising the minimum standards. And, you know,
24:01
Speaker 3: as organizers, And workers, we talk about expectations a lot.
24:06
Speaker 3: And great folks have written about raising expectations. So I
24:09
Speaker 3: won't go into too much of that. But when people
24:13
Speaker 3: realize that not only can they raise the floor at
24:20
Speaker 3: their job, like Alex said, that he could change the
24:24
Speaker 3: mental health care industry and the ability for him to
24:26
Speaker 3: have consistency with his clients with the kids that he's
24:32
Speaker 3: trying to serve. You know, that's very mission-driven.
24:35
Speaker 2: Work, right?
24:36
Speaker 3: And we see all the time workers in organizing drives,
24:42
Speaker 3: particularly in healthcare, but lots of places, education, where they say, well,
24:47
Speaker 3: I don't know if I can do this because I
24:49
Speaker 3: would put the kids or the patients or whoever it
24:55
Speaker 3: is at risk. But a lot of these campaigns are
24:58
Speaker 3: about connecting well, this would actually make things way more
25:01
Speaker 3: sustainable for the work that I'm trying to do. This
25:05
Speaker 3: would make me stay. This would help raise my wage
25:09
Speaker 3: so I can provide for my family. All of these
25:12
Speaker 3: things go back to that question of power, right? And
25:17
Speaker 3: so when I think about how it changed the way
25:21
Speaker 3: I look at work and life, particularly now coming from
25:25
Speaker 3: Canada and the US, there is an entire industry that
25:29
Speaker 3: is dedicated to crushing workers' ability to do this. And
25:35
Speaker 3: it has a lot of money behind it. It has
25:37
Speaker 3: a lot of politicians behind it. I mean, the US,
25:40
Speaker 3: we look at right-to-work states. We look at what is
25:43
Speaker 3: going on in Alberta, Canada right now, and the attacks
25:47
Speaker 3: on trying to privatize our healthcare, which is a big
25:51
Speaker 3: no-no in Canada. We workers, workers historically fought for all
25:57
Speaker 3: these things to get a public healthcare system to get funding.
26:02
Speaker 3: And so I think this will go to a little
26:06
Speaker 3: bit about the power that we're up against. But we
26:10
Speaker 3: also talk about how we don't have, and it's because
26:15
Speaker 3: of people crushing unions, we don't have a lot of money.
26:19
Speaker 3: We don't have the ability to match dollar for dollar
26:23
Speaker 3: what our bosses are doing. But what we do have
26:26
Speaker 3: is people power. And so I think it's I was
26:30
Speaker 3: lucky enough to get into it at 20. But since
26:33
Speaker 3: moving here, even in the past few years, I've completely
26:36
Speaker 3: changed the way that I see power and what workers
26:39
Speaker 3: are up against as well.
26:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, man.
26:42
Speaker 1: I mean, in the good old US of A, right?
26:45
Speaker 1: I mean, we have many rights on paper, but not
26:49
Speaker 1: in reality, right? And I'm constantly telling folks that you
26:54
Speaker 1: have a right to Be a part of and form
26:57
Speaker 1: a union and collectively bargain in your workplace in this country.
27:02
Speaker 1: But in this country, that's like basically saying that, you know,
27:05
Speaker 1: Frodo Baggins has a right to go into Mordor, right?
27:09
Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, the type of, you know...
27:13
Speaker 1: The opposition that you're going to face, the pain that
27:16
Speaker 1: you're going to be put through, the system that's going
27:19
Speaker 1: to chew you up and spit you out just for
27:21
Speaker 1: exercising that right is going to take a lot from
27:26
Speaker 1: you and your coworkers, and you need to be prepared
27:28
Speaker 1: for that. And that's kind of what I wanted to
27:31
Speaker 1: talk about here in this round, right? Like, let's talk
27:33
Speaker 1: about the hard stuff, you know, because... We've seen over
27:39
Speaker 1: the past few years, over the course of me doing
27:41
Speaker 1: this show, I've heard it in the stories we've reported, right?
27:46
Speaker 1: This boom in energy around new labor organizing, you know,
27:52
Speaker 1: from the Starbucks workers to the Amazon workers to the
27:55
Speaker 1: independent union movements to the revivals within the established unions
27:59
Speaker 1: like the UAW, the Teamsters. You know, some of the historic,
28:04
Speaker 1: you know, strikes that have happened in Canada, you know,
28:07
Speaker 1: in the past five years, you know, a lot is
28:09
Speaker 1: clearly happening. But at the same time, I think a
28:12
Speaker 1: lot of folks who got swept up in that energy
28:16
Speaker 1: over the past five years have also come to the
28:19
Speaker 1: hard kind of realities of unions aren't perfect. Labor law
28:23
Speaker 1: is stacked against you, you know, like there's going to
28:26
Speaker 1: be a whole lot of crap that you're going to
28:28
Speaker 1: have to go through, but it is worth it. And
28:31
Speaker 1: so I want to talk about that with you guys and,
28:35
Speaker 1: and sort of like, you know, address head on these
28:38
Speaker 1: real issues that folks, you know, have had or will
28:41
Speaker 1: face when trying to organize. So like, let's talk about
28:46
Speaker 1: what people are really going to be up against when
28:48
Speaker 1: they try to unionize today in the U S or Canada.
28:52
Speaker 1: And what is, like, if someone's listening to this, what
28:55
Speaker 1: do they do when their union sucks or, you know,
28:59
Speaker 1: union officials break their heart and screw them over?
29:02
Speaker 5: You're right.
29:03
Speaker 4: There are a lot of unions that, to put it
29:07
Speaker 4: in your words, you know, can break your heart. But
29:10
Speaker 4: I always say having a union, even a shitty union,
29:13
Speaker 4: is better than not having a union at all, right?
29:16
Speaker 4: Because even with a shitty union, there are mechanisms that
29:18
Speaker 4: you can do internally within your union in order to
29:21
Speaker 4: challenge those leaderships that are not willing to fight a
29:25
Speaker 4: good fight on your behalf, but collectively on behalf of
29:27
Speaker 4: all the workers and the.
29:28
Speaker 5: Community, right?
29:29
Speaker 4: So definitely, I think we're all on the same page
29:32
Speaker 4: or should be on the same page that unions are better.
29:34
Speaker 5: Than, no unions whatsoever.
29:37
Speaker 4: But we also need to recognize that there are a
29:40
Speaker 4: lot of sellout unions or leaderships within unions that are
29:48
Speaker 4: no longer willing to fight a good fight. They've become
29:50
Speaker 4: part of the institutionalized capitalist system. They've lost the vision.
29:56
Speaker 4: They don't advance anything more than protecting their careers. And
30:02
Speaker 4: they have forgotten that unions are, after all, also political
30:05
Speaker 4: organizations of the working class, right? And they've lost that.
30:11
Speaker 4: And that's where you see some unions or some leadership
30:14
Speaker 4: within unions making decisions that end up harming workers that
30:22
Speaker 4: they're supposed to represent. But it's not the end of
30:25
Speaker 4: the world, because I always say that what you need
30:26
Speaker 4: to do as workers, the union is yourself. So you
30:30
Speaker 4: organize internally, right? And you organize in order to bring
30:33
Speaker 4: democracy back into your union and your workplace. And you
30:38
Speaker 4: organize to take over, to take back, okay, those unions
30:42
Speaker 4: from those careerist elements within the union movement. Those who
30:45
Speaker 4: are willing to and understand and have class consciousness, and
30:49
Speaker 4: they are fighting a class war for, you know, to
30:52
Speaker 4: go back to the classics.
30:53
Speaker 5: This is the reality of it.
30:55
Speaker 4: And they're not going to advance a lot of workers
30:58
Speaker 4: if they compromise with the employer on some fundamental issues.
31:04
Speaker 5: And so our work is premised on.
31:08
Speaker 4: The fact that we believe in the power of workers.
31:11
Speaker 4: But we also need to be very realistic about what
31:13
Speaker 4: kind of unions we're dealing with. And also in my
31:16
Speaker 4: work in organizing in solidarity with the Palestinian liberation struggle
31:21
Speaker 4: and Palestinian workers, I've realized that the connection between those
31:30
Speaker 4: unions who are taking better positions in solidarity with international
31:36
Speaker 4: workers around the world is very much connected to how
31:39
Speaker 4: much they're willing to fight for their own members and
31:42
Speaker 4: for the working class in Canada or the US. And
31:44
Speaker 4: those who have sold out when it comes to the
31:47
Speaker 4: class struggle in their own workplaces and communities and in
31:50
Speaker 4: Canada and the US, You find them that they're not
31:53
Speaker 4: willing to actually be in solidarity internationally.
31:56
Speaker 5: They may pay lip service.
31:57
Speaker 4: But they don't do anything concretely to honor that global
32:01
Speaker 4: picket line of the Palestinian people.
32:03
Speaker 5: And as it was.
32:04
Speaker 4: Before the people of South Africa that fought against apartheid.
32:07
Speaker 4: So they're connected. Good fighting working class unions that have
32:12
Speaker 4: clarity of purpose, okay, are also clear on the local,
32:16
Speaker 4: on the national and on the international issues. And we
32:19
Speaker 4: have no choice but to continue to fight a good
32:21
Speaker 4: fight internally to make sure that they stay on the
32:24
Speaker 4: straight path or the left path rather.
32:28
Speaker 6: I want to hear from you, Alex.
32:30
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm itching to jump in on this one.
32:32
Speaker 8: So what you're up against, you hear, especially when you're
32:39
Speaker 8: new to this, like, hey, there's the NLRB, you have
32:44
Speaker 8: these rights, and the NLRB will adjudicate if there's any
32:50
Speaker 8: unfair action taken against you by your employer. But my boss,
32:56
Speaker 8: Lindsey Thompson, straight up fired me in writing for labor organizing.
33:01
Speaker 7: And that's still in NLRB hell.
33:04
Speaker 8: And we're expecting a ruling any decade now, probably 2035, 2045.
33:09
Speaker 8: My grandkids will get a decision passed down. So, I mean,
33:14
Speaker 8: that's the reality of it. And I've got some comrades
33:17
Speaker 8: that have similarly... experience pretty nefarious dealings from their employer
33:24
Speaker 8: because who's going to stop them?
33:26
Speaker 7: They fire you, you're kind of done for. And then
33:31
Speaker 7: on the heels of.
33:32
Speaker 8: That, my union internally was going through a little bit
33:38
Speaker 8: of drama precisely when I got fired. And that happened
33:44
Speaker 8: to create a really perfect storm that weakened our bargaining
33:47
Speaker 8: unit and set us up for a lot of trouble
33:49
Speaker 8: going into 2026. But what is the solution? To quote
33:54
Speaker 8: the adage, don't.
33:55
Speaker 7: Mourn, organize.
33:57
Speaker 8: And I remind myself that these things, these institutions that
34:02
Speaker 8: exist today were built by the literal blood of people
34:06
Speaker 8: that were massacred and organizing in significantly difficult, more difficult
34:14
Speaker 8: conditions today.
34:16
Speaker 7: Like I lost a job, I got a new job.
34:18
Speaker 8: You know, I wasn't, you know, brutalized in the ways
34:22
Speaker 8: that you can encounter in the history books. So not
34:26
Speaker 8: discounting the struggles that people are facing today. It's just
34:29
Speaker 8: that the solution remains the same, which is you organize.
34:33
Speaker 8: And my union, we organized it internally, brought it up
34:37
Speaker 8: to the local president.
34:39
Speaker 7: They got it fixed.
34:40
Speaker 8: He's out there on the line with us, every opportunity
34:43
Speaker 8: he's got. And they've done an incredible amount to organize
34:47
Speaker 8: with us. And not just Brian Payton with Teamsters Local
34:52
Speaker 8: 322 and a huge chunk of amazing UPS workers, Jennifer Hancock,
34:57
Speaker 8: those folks coming out, making sure that we're all right
34:59
Speaker 8: and that this group of workers gets represented fairly. But
35:04
Speaker 8: the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, especially their caucus of
35:08
Speaker 8: rank-and-file electrical workers, it's an internal caucus that has come
35:11
Speaker 8: together and shown up for workers, in Richmond and across
35:15
Speaker 8: the country in really profound ways. Like, if there's a
35:19
Speaker 8: worker struggle in town, there's going to be hard hats there.
35:22
Speaker 8: And I think it's that kind of ethos that we
35:26
Speaker 8: need to really embrace. Like, one worker struggle is my struggle.
35:30
Speaker 8: And it's been really hard.
35:34
Speaker 2: There was.
35:36
Speaker 8: an understandable amount of kind of almost desperation when we
35:40
Speaker 8: did everything right and the employer is just able to
35:43
Speaker 8: break every rule and get away with it.
35:47
Speaker 7: But I think it taught us a.
35:48
Speaker 8: Very valuable lesson, which is that, you know, you don't
35:52
Speaker 8: just win a vote and then you're all done. You
35:54
Speaker 8: organize not just to win a contract, but then to
35:57
Speaker 8: enforce it and then to be able to have the
36:00
Speaker 8: capacity to show up for other workers because there's not
36:03
Speaker 8: just one fight and then you're done.
36:06
Speaker 7: This is a global fight.
36:08
Speaker 8: The cause of every member of the working class is
36:12
Speaker 8: our cause. So this is the fight of a lifetime,
36:15
Speaker 8: not just for a contract or a vote or.
36:18
Speaker 7: Some particular grievance.
36:20
Speaker 8: So I think it's been hard, but we've learned a
36:22
Speaker 8: lot of lessons and we're continuing to learn. And a
36:25
Speaker 8: lot of that is because of the very cool people
36:27
Speaker 8: that are on this panel today.
36:28
Speaker 7: So shout out to y'all.
36:30
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, obviously the fact that we have
36:33
Speaker 1: such a, an incredible panel of folks from Canada and
36:37
Speaker 1: the U S and Cole, you, you came from Canada
36:40
Speaker 1: to the U S like, I was wondering if, if
36:42
Speaker 1: you could also sort of wrap into this question, like
36:46
Speaker 1: the differences of the situations and, and the kind of
36:49
Speaker 1: things that folks are going to face in the U
36:51
Speaker 1: S versus Canada while we're answering this question.
36:55
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think I have two different parts to this answer.
37:01
Speaker 3: The first is that I think in Canada, we have
37:05
Speaker 3: a different history when it comes to not only our
37:11
Speaker 3: labor movement, but our political parties. I think in the U.S.,
37:16
Speaker 3: you folks are locked into the two-party hell that is
37:19
Speaker 3: the Democrats and the Republicans. Our system in Canada is
37:25
Speaker 3: multi-party and we had a labor movement that formed a
37:30
Speaker 3: political party that became the New Democratic Party, the NDP.
37:35
Speaker 3: And those were the folks I mentioned earlier that led
37:39
Speaker 3: to Medicare, healthcare being public in this country. And I
37:44
Speaker 3: say that not to give a knighthood to politicians because
37:49
Speaker 3: we know that everything that we've won um, in any
37:52
Speaker 3: country has come from workers pushing for that and pressuring that, um,
37:58
Speaker 3: and always will be always has been. And so I
38:01
Speaker 3: think that's one of the big differences. And obviously in
38:04
Speaker 3: the negotiation realm, when you don't have to, um, think
38:08
Speaker 3: about Medicare or healthcare being part of the contract, and
38:12
Speaker 3: you can instead think about the things in Canada that, uh,
38:15
Speaker 3: haven't gotten into that system, like drug care prescriptions, um,
38:21
Speaker 3: it changes the negotiation landscape for sure. I think the
38:25
Speaker 3: other big difference is the matter of density. And I
38:29
Speaker 3: mentioned the word density earlier, but that is how many
38:33
Speaker 3: workers percentage-wise are unionized within a given population. So in Canada,
38:39
Speaker 3: that is much, much higher. In the US, it's like
38:43
Speaker 3: brutal and it shows all of the things that.
38:47
Speaker 2: Have- We're below 10% now, I believe.
38:50
Speaker 3: That's correct. And I'll just say to your listeners that
38:53
Speaker 3: the Economic Policy Institute put out this amazing report about
38:57
Speaker 3: what would change if union density in the U.S. was higher.
39:02
Speaker 3: And the reality is we would have health care. We
39:07
Speaker 3: would have about, give or take, $ 7, 000 extra a year
39:10
Speaker 3: in your pocket. And that's I don't know about anyone
39:15
Speaker 3: else on this call, but I think people could use $ 7, 000
39:18
Speaker 3: plus a year.
39:21
Speaker 1: And that's $ 7, 000 a year that you would get like
39:23
Speaker 1: in your contract versus the kind of like fantastical fake $ 5, 000 $ 5, 000
39:30
Speaker 1: that President Trump is promising you if you just believe
39:33
Speaker 1: him and vote the way he wants in the midterms.
39:36
Speaker 2: Exactly.
39:36
Speaker 3: And I'll just say quickly on that. Studies have shown
39:39
Speaker 3: that in countries where there are strong labor movements, there
39:44
Speaker 3: are more democracies. Even if we look at the U.S.,
39:48
Speaker 3: We see that in right-to-work states, there are more attacks
39:52
Speaker 3: right now on the voting system than there are in
39:56
Speaker 3: states with higher union density. And so that's kind of
40:00
Speaker 3: the first part of the answer to my question. But
40:03
Speaker 3: the second part is, you know, how is Canada and
40:06
Speaker 3: the U.S. different? They're not. Like, workers in Canada and
40:11
Speaker 3: workers in the U.S., coming from both places, they're not
40:15
Speaker 3: that different. They want the same things. They want higher wages.
40:21
Speaker 3: They want benefits. They want good jobs and they want
40:25
Speaker 3: clean air and for the AI overlords to not ruin
40:28
Speaker 3: the planet and put a data center in their backyard.
40:31
Speaker 3: And so same as it ever was like workers, no
40:35
Speaker 3: matter the country, if they can get enough power, they
40:38
Speaker 3: can change things and make things better.
40:40
Speaker 6: Everything, yes, that Cole just said, a thousand percent. I
40:43
Speaker 6: just want to say, like, genuinely, you know, SEIU is
40:47
Speaker 6: a giant of a union, you know, one of the
40:49
Speaker 6: biggest in the U.S. And so when I look at
40:51
Speaker 6: my comrades in the U.S., not just in SEIU, but U.S.
40:56
Speaker 6: unions in general, like, you know, I really don't have
40:59
Speaker 6: a problem in saying, like, I genuinely think it is
41:01
Speaker 6: harder to organize in the U.S. than it is in Canada.
41:05
Speaker 6: And I don't mean to say that as, like, you know,
41:07
Speaker 6: good or bad, like, as simple as that, but You know,
41:10
Speaker 6: I think where in Canada workers have made gains like
41:15
Speaker 6: card check, which is a one-step unionization system. All you
41:18
Speaker 6: have to do is sign a union card. There's no vote.
41:22
Speaker 6: Where there's successor rights in the three biggest provinces of
41:25
Speaker 6: our country. So Quebec, Ontario, BC, the most populated provinces
41:30
Speaker 6: have successor rights. That means contracted workers, when there's contract flip,
41:34
Speaker 6: the new employer has to hire them on and keep
41:36
Speaker 6: their contract, right? But, you know, those are two... really sizable, genuinely,
41:44
Speaker 6: like those are huge wins, legislative wins that workers have
41:48
Speaker 6: made in this country. And it has, for maybe like,
41:54
Speaker 6: you know, a less sophisticated word, I think it does
41:56
Speaker 6: actually produce some lazy organizing. When I compare it to
42:00
Speaker 6: my comrades in the U.S. who have to strike for
42:04
Speaker 6: recognition or, you know, right to work states where, you know,
42:08
Speaker 6: the dues aren't guaranteed and And part of that lazy
42:13
Speaker 6: organizing is it can get dangerous, of course, because we know,
42:17
Speaker 6: just as Cole said, the bosses are the same. The
42:20
Speaker 6: power that they have will absolutely crush us. Our dollars
42:23
Speaker 6: can't compete. Our legal can't compete. And so when organizers
42:28
Speaker 6: on the ground, whether it's a member organizer, worker organizer,
42:30
Speaker 6: staff organizer, is taking these shortcuts, we know we're going
42:36
Speaker 6: to get hit by those shortcuts down the road because
42:38
Speaker 6: a fight is coming, guys, right?
42:39
Speaker 3: A fight is always coming.
42:42
Speaker 6: And so I think it's a really important, I think,
42:47
Speaker 6: moment for Canada-based organizers where even though we've made those gains,
42:54
Speaker 6: like Card Check-In Successor, that we do the right thing,
42:59
Speaker 6: which is to develop and recruit the best leaders we
43:03
Speaker 6: can in our organizations, right? And keep it a fighting organization.
43:09
Speaker 3: And that means.
43:11
Speaker 6: yes, there might be shortcuts, but we're actually going to
43:13
Speaker 6: do the really rigorous spade work that is required to
43:17
Speaker 6: build a fighting union.
43:19
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. I thought it was all beautifully and powerfully put, y'all.
43:24
Speaker 1: And it bears mentioning that you could say the same
43:27
Speaker 1: thing about unions here just a little farther back in
43:30
Speaker 1: our history, right? I mean, the union density in this
43:34
Speaker 1: country at its height was around 30% or a little
43:37
Speaker 1: over Right. I mean, unions built the middle class. They
43:41
Speaker 1: gave us the weekends. You know, we know all the
43:43
Speaker 1: talking points. But then that middle class gave up on
43:46
Speaker 1: the struggle. They cared more about like their middle class existence,
43:51
Speaker 1: their specific contracts. They lost that sense of working class solidarity.
43:57
Speaker 1: And here we are, you know, 40, 30 years later
44:01
Speaker 1: with the results. Union density below 10%. Wages, you know,
44:06
Speaker 1: like have been stagnant or declining. Cost of living has
44:09
Speaker 1: been going up. Power has been shifting to the top
44:12
Speaker 1: away from the bottom. I think the real takeaway message
44:15
Speaker 1: from Canada to the US to everywhere is don't get complacent, right?
44:19
Speaker 1: You know, like the struggle has to continue. And I
44:22
Speaker 1: could genuinely talk to you guys for hours about how
44:25
Speaker 1: to continue that struggle. And, you know, I'm so grateful
44:28
Speaker 1: for the conversation that we've had, but I know we
44:30
Speaker 1: have to wrap up here.
44:32
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to.
44:33
Speaker 1: Finish with sort of like a big picture question that
44:37
Speaker 1: y'all have touched on in this conversation. But like for
44:39
Speaker 1: folks who are listening to this right now and saying like, yeah, that,
44:43
Speaker 1: that all sounds great, but like, why should I care
44:47
Speaker 1: about unions now in the year of our Lord, 2026,
44:51
Speaker 1: when the world is on fire and everything sucks and
44:55
Speaker 1: these oligarch nut jobs are taking over everything and destroying
44:59
Speaker 1: the planet. So what would you say to folks in closing,
45:02
Speaker 1: you know, who are still kind of in that headspace?
45:06
Speaker 8: Yeah, what I would say is why you should care
45:08
Speaker 8: about a union now is because things have already gotten
45:11
Speaker 8: to a point where we're feeling.
45:14
Speaker 7: The everyday economic ramifications of those decisions.
45:19
Speaker 8: And, you know, whatever inertia is.
45:23
Speaker 7: Kind of keeping us moving in this direction, if we
45:25
Speaker 7: can overcome....
45:29
Speaker 8: Identify any solutions that need to be found and start
45:32
Speaker 8: putting them into practice so that we can build a
45:35
Speaker 8: future that we want to be part of. And I
45:38
Speaker 8: know that sounds like fanciful language, but every small step
45:44
Speaker 8: in the right direction is also a step we're not
45:46
Speaker 8: taking in the wrong direction. And it feels difficult. It
45:50
Speaker 8: feels impossible. It feels exhausting when you think about it
45:55
Speaker 8: in individual terms. But you're not alone. People like me,
45:59
Speaker 8: Don't know a ton. I'm sitting on a panel today
46:02
Speaker 8: with Hassan, Cole, Tina, and you, Max. And there's a
46:06
Speaker 8: lot of expertise out there. And you're not alone.
46:09
Speaker 2: So.
46:10
Speaker 8: Nothing weaker than the feeble strength of one. We got
46:13
Speaker 8: this together.
46:15
Speaker 4: Very briefly, I think that for all the reasons that
46:19
Speaker 4: you spoke about, Maximilian, it's for all these reasons, because
46:23
Speaker 4: the world is run by.
46:26
Speaker 5: Not oligarchs.
46:28
Speaker 4: It's for the reason that they're destroying the planet. The
46:30
Speaker 4: reason that we have Trump in the White House and
46:33
Speaker 4: Mark Carney in Ottawa that are governing on behalf of
46:38
Speaker 4: banks and corporations and the super rich. It's for all
46:42
Speaker 4: these reasons that we need unions, if for nothing else,
46:45
Speaker 4: to equalize things, to make sure that they fight for
46:51
Speaker 4: working people on the shop floor. but also they continue
46:56
Speaker 4: to fight for a better society for all the working class.
47:00
Speaker 4: And also they continue to make sure that international solidarity
47:04
Speaker 4: is not just a performative thing, but a real element
47:10
Speaker 4: of the work of unions and without unions and without
47:14
Speaker 4: organizing and without that kind of mass democratic organizations that
47:21
Speaker 4: we value so much that we will fall back even more.
47:24
Speaker 4: And so from that perspective, and because of that, unions
47:27
Speaker 4: are a lot more critical today than, in my opinion.
47:30
Speaker 5: They were 50 years ago or 60 or 70 years ago.
47:33
Speaker 4: And, you know, we finish on the adage again that
47:36
Speaker 4: an injury to one is an injury to all. So
47:38
Speaker 4: this is not about individual protection. It's about a collective
47:41
Speaker 4: work and collective organizing and collective protection and collective empowerment.
47:45
Speaker 6: I think a good union organizer knows how to answer
47:50
Speaker 6: any question with the answer being union. And so to me,
47:57
Speaker 6: it's why should people care about unions? Well, It's less
48:01
Speaker 6: about why people should care about union. It's more about,
48:04
Speaker 6: do you want a better life for you and your
48:06
Speaker 6: family and your loved ones? If so, the only answer
48:09
Speaker 6: is union. And I believe that. We just talked about
48:13
Speaker 6: the trickle-down effects of increasing union density is that we
48:16
Speaker 6: live in a better society. There's health care improvements, education improvements,
48:22
Speaker 6: life expectancy, I'm sure.
48:23
Speaker 7: And so.
48:27
Speaker 6: I think that question that Cole talked about, workers in US, Canada,
48:32
Speaker 6: across any border, they want a better life for themselves
48:35
Speaker 6: and their families. I don't know a single ordinary working
48:39
Speaker 6: person that doesn't. And the answer to that question is
48:44
Speaker 6: going to be union.
48:46
Speaker 3: Couldn't agree more. I think the answer is unions. If
48:50
Speaker 3: we look at the world being on fire, What's going
48:53
Speaker 3: to protect workers that are going out in increasingly record-breaking
48:57
Speaker 3: heat working outside? If they're a postal worker, construction laborer,
49:04
Speaker 3: what is going to do that? Is the boss going
49:06
Speaker 3: to say, oh, I'm recognizing it's a bit hot and
49:08
Speaker 3: unsafe out there. This doesn't need to get built today.
49:11
Speaker 3: This work doesn't need to get done. No, bosses are
49:14
Speaker 3: going to continue to try and extract as much as
49:18
Speaker 3: they can so that's one example if we look at
49:24
Speaker 3: you know this mass global movement in many countries unionized
49:32
Speaker 3: dock workers have stopped the ports and refused to unload
49:38
Speaker 3: israeli cargo you know, the struggle of the anti-war movement,
49:44
Speaker 3: the struggle for basic protections of not dying on the job.
49:49
Speaker 3: And yes, like the individual and materialistic thing of wanting
49:53
Speaker 3: more money in your bank account so you can pay
49:57
Speaker 3: your rent, so you can buy food, so you can
50:00
Speaker 3: get the basic necessities, all comes from having a strong, resourced,
50:07
Speaker 3: infrastructure and and the only thing that working people have
50:10
Speaker 3: in this country right now is a union and so
50:14
Speaker 3: that would be my answer why should you care about
50:16
Speaker 3: unions now it is literally the only thing that working
50:20
Speaker 3: people have on our side and that's not big you
50:24
Speaker 3: union that's you and your co-workers coming together to push
50:29
Speaker 3: for more and to fight the boss and to hopefully win.
50:40
Speaker 1: All right, gang, that's going to wrap things up for
50:42
Speaker 1: us today. I want to thank our guests, Hassan Hussaini
50:46
Speaker 1: of the Public Service Alliance of Canada and Labor for
50:49
Speaker 1: Palestine Canada, Tina Oh of SEIU Local 2 in Halifax, Canada,
50:55
Speaker 1: Alex Raymond of Teamsters Local 322 in Virginia, and Cole Rockhart,
51:01
Speaker 1: veteran labor educator and organizer and author of the excellent
51:05
Speaker 1: new book, Fired Up About Unions, which everyone should go read.
51:09
Speaker 1: And you can learn more about the book using the
51:11
Speaker 1: links that we provided in the show.
51:13
Speaker 2: Notes for this episode.
51:15
Speaker 1: And of course, I want to thank you all for listening,
51:17
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for caring about this.
51:20
Speaker 1: We do this work for you, but we cannot do
51:22
Speaker 1: it without you. Working People is brought to you in
51:25
Speaker 1: partnership with In These Times Magazine and The Real News Network.
51:29
Speaker 1: This show is produced by the great Jules Taylor and
51:32
Speaker 1: is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network.
51:36
Speaker 1: We'll see y'all back here next time for another episode
51:39
Speaker 1: of Working People. And in the meantime, go explore all
51:42
Speaker 1: the great work that we're doing weekly at The Real
51:45
Speaker 1: News Network, where we do grassroots reporting that lifts up
51:48
Speaker 1: the voices and stories of people on the front lines
51:52
Speaker 1: of struggle around the U.S.
51:53
Speaker 2: And across the world. Subscribe to our YouTube channel.
51:57
Speaker 1: Check out our great podcasts like Under the Shadow and
52:00
Speaker 1: The Mark Steiner Show. And connect with us on social
52:03
Speaker 1: media and get updates on our reporting there. And help
52:07
Speaker 1: us do more work like this by going to therealnews.com
52:10
Speaker 1: forward slash donate and becoming a supporter today. It really,
52:15
Speaker 1: really makes a difference. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves.
52:20
Speaker 1: Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.
52:28
Speaker 9: When my face you no longer see I live on, yes,
52:32
Speaker 9: I live on Wherever we go We are going.
52:37
Speaker 6: To roll the union on.
52:38
Speaker 9: The song, I live on, yes, I live on. Wherever hungry,
52:43
Speaker 9: hungry are we. Just as hungry as hungry can be.
52:48
Speaker 9: The song, I live on, yes, I live on. Where
52:52
Speaker 9: mean things are happening in this land, is read a song,
52:56
Speaker 9: I live on, yes, I live on. Wherever the books
53:00
Speaker 9: mean things... are happening in this land is real, I'll
53:04
Speaker 9: live on.
53:05
Speaker 1: Yes, I'll live on.
53:07
Speaker 9: Wherever the videotape of me is shown, I'll live on.
53:12
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll live on.
53:13
Speaker 9: If I have help to make this a better world
53:17
Speaker 9: to live in, I'll live on.
53:19
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll live on.
53:21
Speaker 9: When my body is sour and in some goes the grave,
53:25
Speaker 9: I'll live on.
53:27
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll live on.
53:29
Speaker 9: When my songs and poems A red olive
53:34
Speaker 7: On, yes, olive on.