Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Ordinary Time: Spiritual Growth in the Everyday Rhythms of Life (Amy Peeler)

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Ordinary Time: Spiritual Growth in the Everyday Rhythms of Life (Amy Peeler) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
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  Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
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  Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
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  Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm
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  Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Amy Peeler. She is the Kenneth T.
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  Speaker 1: Wesner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College and she's
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  Speaker 1: written a book called Ordinary Time that we're going to
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  Speaker 1: be discussing and so Amy, welcome to the program. Thanks
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  Speaker 1: for being here.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking
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  Speaker 2: forward to our conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So talk a little bit about how you
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  Speaker 1: got involved in this particular project and maybe give people
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  Speaker 1: a little bit of your background. I mean, the the
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  Speaker 1: Westerner chair of you know, Biblical studies gives people probably
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  Speaker 1: some idea, but what are your interests, how did you
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  Speaker 1: come to this title?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely sure, So maybe ye, I'll start with myself and
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  Speaker 2: then move to the book. So I was. I started
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  Speaker 2: college interested in psychology, but then pretty and about the
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  Speaker 2: middle of college, I discovered biblical studies. I had grown
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  Speaker 2: up in the faith, and then I realized you can
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  Speaker 2: study the Bible like a school project. It was kind
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  Speaker 2: of amazing. I loved school, I loved God. You can
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  Speaker 2: put these things together. So I had excellent mentors at
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  Speaker 2: my college. I went to Oklahama Baptist University, and they
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  Speaker 2: really ignited the fire for me to be a professor.
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  Speaker 2: And so about the age of twenty, I thought, that's
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  Speaker 2: what I want to do. So I pursued that path,
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  Speaker 2: and in God's goodness, that's what I get to do.
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  Speaker 2: I am here at Wheaton. I've been here this my
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  Speaker 2: fourteenth school year. I teach all the way from undergraduates
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  Speaker 2: sometimes I have freshmen all the way to doctoral students,
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  Speaker 2: so I have a wide range and they're amazing people
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  Speaker 2: who come here to Wheaton. I love teaching God's word
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  Speaker 2: and so that's the focus of what I do for
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  Speaker 2: the majority of the time. I also serve at my
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  Speaker 2: church and I love being grounded in a local Christian community.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm kind of Bible all the time, which is
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  Speaker 2: amazing and so fun. Off Really many days I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: this is my job. I get paid for this. This
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  Speaker 2: is often so lots to be thankful for. So this project, then,
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  Speaker 2: honestly is a little different. I've never done anything like this.
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  Speaker 2: So my colleague here at Wheaton, a dear friend, is
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  Speaker 2: Isa McCully. He's the editor of this series. It's the
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  Speaker 2: Fullness of Time series, and there is a little book
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  Speaker 2: on each section of the church year, and so maybe
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  Speaker 2: some of our listeners would be familiar with that, maybe
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  Speaker 2: some not. I grew up Southern Baptist. I was very
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  Speaker 2: well rooted in scripture, but we didn't think very much
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  Speaker 2: about the different seasons of the year. That's not really
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  Speaker 2: part of that tradition. I'm now part of the Anglican
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  Speaker 2: Communion in the Episcopal Church, and so that is absolutely
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  Speaker 2: we strutured everything according to Church here. So just briefly,
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  Speaker 2: then Esau had envisioned this series where scholars and pastors
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  Speaker 2: and priests, everybody is within the Anglican Communion writes both
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  Speaker 2: history and exit Jesus and reflection and devotion about the
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  Speaker 2: seasons of the church here, and my understanding is they
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  Speaker 2: had everything set Easter and Lent and Pentecost and Epiphany,
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  Speaker 2: and then there's this big part of the year that
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  Speaker 2: is ordinary, and initially they didn't imagine they'd have a
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  Speaker 2: volume on that because that's like the normal. But then
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  Speaker 2: later in the imagination of the series, ESA thought, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we need something on that time of the church here,
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  Speaker 2: and very graciously he approached me, and I was really
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  Speaker 2: excited to take it on. So yeah, it was really
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  Speaker 2: his invitation and then my decision to say, I can
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  Speaker 2: think about this huge time of the church here and
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  Speaker 2: write a beautiful little book about it. And by beautiful,
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  Speaker 2: I mean like they have done an amazing job of
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  Speaker 2: the formatting of these books. They're small and they have
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  Speaker 2: beautiful color. So I've never had the opportunity to write
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  Speaker 2: something so little and so pretty. Most of my books,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I think the content is good, but they're
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  Speaker 2: not much to look at. So it was really fun.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, for those who don't who aren't familiar with
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  Speaker 1: sort of the church count I grew up Lutheran, so
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  Speaker 1: we had the church calendars, so I understand the cadence
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  Speaker 1: of it. The idea of ordinary time is just basically,
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  Speaker 1: maybe I'm getting this wrong, so you can correct me,
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  Speaker 1: but it's basically the time of year where there is
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  Speaker 1: no official church holiday kind of thing going on, right,
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  Speaker 1: It's just we have a blank space here. That's the
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  Speaker 1: ordinary time.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's precisely right. And if we learn from early Christians,
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  Speaker 2: of course they are celebrating Jesus's resurrection and they want
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  Speaker 2: time to prepare for that, and they celebrate his birth
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  Speaker 2: and they want time to prepare for that. So really
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  Speaker 2: you have Easter season and Lent, Christmas and Advent and
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  Speaker 2: then Epiphany and Pentecost, and then ordinary time is the
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  Speaker 2: stuff that's left over. It's neither feast nor fast, it's
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  Speaker 2: our normal life. So you've got it exactly right.
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  Speaker 1: How much time actually is that? Do you have a
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  Speaker 1: good sense of that?
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  Speaker 2: So there are two different sections of ordinary time. We
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  Speaker 2: actually just entered one, and so after you have Advent
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  Speaker 2: in the twelve days of Christmas, then you have a
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  Speaker 2: brief season of Epiphany where we remember the wise men
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  Speaker 2: coming to visit Jesus and the light going out to
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  Speaker 2: the world, and then we enter into ordinary time. So
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  Speaker 2: we're in it right now, and depending on where Easter falls.
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  Speaker 2: It's really just a handful of weeks. So at the
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  Speaker 2: end of Epiphany until ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent,
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  Speaker 2: we're an ordinary time. That's a small section. The much
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  Speaker 2: larger section, which can be up to twenty nine weeks,
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  Speaker 2: occurs right after Pentecost all the way to Christ the King,
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  Speaker 2: the beginning of Advent, so that stretches over the summer
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  Speaker 2: months and into the fall. It's the widest longest period
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  Speaker 2: of the church.
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  Speaker 1: Here and talk a little bit about how ordinary time
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  Speaker 1: normally fits or is treated. So is there a is
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  Speaker 1: there any sense where this space is viewed as the
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  Speaker 1: bridge between the you know, the season that came before
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  Speaker 1: it and the season came after it, or is it
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  Speaker 1: sort of really okay, we're done with this season now,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to move to this season, but we're not
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  Speaker 1: going to use this ordinary time to sort of build
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  Speaker 1: that bridge.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, what a fascinating question. In the research that I've done,
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  Speaker 2: I haven't seen bridge language and I wonder simply because
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  Speaker 2: it's so long, that'd be a really long year long bridge. Yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And so the ways that it's been spoken about in
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  Speaker 2: church history and different traditions is that we do kind
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  Speaker 2: of have a bookend with Pentecost, and then it's a
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  Speaker 2: long time before we have the new year of the
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  Speaker 2: Christian calendar, which is Advent. So this period of time
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  Speaker 2: is thought about as normal life, as a time for growth,
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  Speaker 2: as a time for reflecting on the life of Jesus,
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  Speaker 2: as reflecting on God's work with the people of Israel.
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  Speaker 2: So I've never really heard bridge language. I just think
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  Speaker 2: that's simply link would prevent that. But it is the
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  Speaker 2: time of like when we are living out our growth
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  Speaker 2: as Pentecost people, as Easter people, as resurrection people, but
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  Speaker 2: we do so for a long time, patterning ourselves off
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  Speaker 2: of the life of Jesus and of the saints.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's associated with color usually, right, Yeah, So
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  Speaker 1: maybe talk a little bit about the color and how
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  Speaker 1: that ties in symbolically with what ordinary time is.
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  Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent. Yeah. I love the liturgical tradition, and I
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  Speaker 2: recognize I'm a convert, so I'm very zealous about it,
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  Speaker 2: but I love that it has a visual aspect. So,
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  Speaker 2: and when you go into the different seasons, one thing
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  Speaker 2: you might recognizes the color changes. Advent is often blue,
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  Speaker 2: and Lent is often purple, and so you have a
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  Speaker 2: change for ordinary time. It's green, and that is very mundane.
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  Speaker 2: As early Christians and kind of throughout time they're thinking, well,
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  Speaker 2: what colors do we use well? In that period of time,
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  Speaker 2: especially in the northern hemisphere, you have lots of plants,
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  Speaker 2: lots of grass. You can make a lot of green
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  Speaker 2: dye for the banners and the vestments and the stoles
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  Speaker 2: and things that are decorating the church. And I think
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  Speaker 2: it works symbolically as that period of time we're seeing,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the harvest rising, you know, the plants green
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  Speaker 2: that leaves a green outside we are. That makes us
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  Speaker 2: think as humans about growing things and how our own
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  Speaker 2: spiritual life can grow in this time.
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  Speaker 1: And so the green is both I like the word
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  Speaker 1: you use mundane in the sense that we've entered into
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  Speaker 1: something that's not particularly special in a way that we're
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  Speaker 1: applying some sort of big symbolic logic to it, like
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  Speaker 1: an advent or a lent, and so it becomes a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more earthy and just every day.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But then the green also denotes this idea that even
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  Speaker 1: though you're in a mundane space, you shouldn't be exactly
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  Speaker 1: you should be actively moving forward that's.
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  Speaker 2: So well said. This is not a season of the
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  Speaker 2: year that's like a timeout, right, Like we do these
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  Speaker 2: big things, and you know, sometimes churches even can get
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  Speaker 2: into the mindset of kind of thinking that way. I've
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  Speaker 2: heard conversations of like, oh, we don't have much programming
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  Speaker 2: in the summer. We kind of take it off, and
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  Speaker 2: you know, I recognize that people travel and it's a
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  Speaker 2: little bit maybe of more relaxed, but I think that's
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  Speaker 2: a wrong thing. We shouldn't just say, you know, we
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  Speaker 2: only do things with God when they're big, like when
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  Speaker 2: we're fasting or when we're feasting. Oh, that's the beauty
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  Speaker 2: of the incarnation that God is with us in the
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  Speaker 2: every day, and I think ordinary time really helps us
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  Speaker 2: remember that truth because most of our lives are pretty normal,
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  Speaker 2: Like we don't have a party every day, We're not
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  Speaker 2: crying every day. A lot of days are I do
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  Speaker 2: what I do. I interact with the people I love,
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  Speaker 2: and that's my life. So we've got to think about
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  Speaker 2: how God is active in that and respond to God actively.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you kind of went from you went
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  Speaker 1: from a more open tradition without these seasons and then
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  Speaker 1: over into a you know, Anglican Church, where these are
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  Speaker 1: really very much a part of the warp and woof
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  Speaker 1: of life. I did the opposite thing. Oh, and so
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  Speaker 1: I've kind of seen both, like, yeah, but one thing
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  Speaker 1: I noticed, and as I was reading Ordinary Time, I'm
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  Speaker 1: kind of thinking through it's this space you're talking about,
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  Speaker 1: that apathy that can develop. We're going to take the
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  Speaker 1: summer off. That kind of idea. It almost feels like
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  Speaker 1: that carries into some of the I would call them,
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  Speaker 1: you know, non liturgical calendar traditions. That's really a mouthful, right,
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  Speaker 1: but because you don't have any sort of punctuated moments
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  Speaker 1: other than maybe Christmas in Easter, Yeah, that's a whole
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  Speaker 1: lot of time. I mean, the same problem you run
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  Speaker 1: into with the twenty nine years growth. Now you have
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  Speaker 1: that for almost fifty weeks, you know, or something like that.
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  Speaker 1: Within the overall church calendar. Did you notice anything as
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  Speaker 1: you moved? I mean, I'm sure you have an appreciation
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  Speaker 1: for the calendars in the different seasons, but did you
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  Speaker 1: notice as you reflect back on your time sort of
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  Speaker 1: in the Baptist tradition, do you notice any of that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a wonderful question, you know, in my transition
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  Speaker 2: from that more free church to a liturgical church. I
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  Speaker 2: spent time with Presbyterians and Wesleyans. I'm really quite a
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  Speaker 2: mutt and have learned, you know, have just been blessed
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  Speaker 2: by so many traditions. And what I something I was
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  Speaker 2: exposed to in those periods of time was the were
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  Speaker 2: the writings of Augustine, and the writings kind of translated
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  Speaker 2: through James Smith from Calvin who talks about like, if
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  Speaker 2: our lives aren't attenuated and focused on God, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to run by kind of our culture's calendar. And our
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  Speaker 2: culture's calendar is very repetitive. It's almost if we look
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  Speaker 2: at it from a materialistic standpoint, it's very consumerist. What
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  Speaker 2: does the market want us to buy next? And we
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  Speaker 2: can kind of be captured by that. One thing I
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  Speaker 2: appreciated is that in the liturgical calendar there is a
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  Speaker 2: recognition that time is God's right. Time is not just
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  Speaker 2: what I have to make of it, or it's not
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  Speaker 2: what the market tells me I need to be purchasing.
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  Speaker 2: There's this rhythm that is both repetitive, right. It is
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  Speaker 2: a cycle, and yet we practice that cycle because we
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  Speaker 2: know we're headed somewhere. We are practicing for the coming Kingdom,
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  Speaker 2: and I found that very helpful. If I can give
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  Speaker 2: you just a short example, Christmas, I was the kind
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  Speaker 2: of kid maybe all kids are like this. I loved
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  Speaker 2: it the best thing ever, Like I would start listening
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: to Christmas music September. First I was getting ready, and
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  Speaker 2: then man, that day after Christmas, I was just crushed.
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  Speaker 2: It was all over. Something I appreciated with the liturgical
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  Speaker 2: tradition is that Advent helps you get ready, but you're
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  Speaker 2: not quite there yet, and then you have these twelve
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  Speaker 2: days of Christmas, not just all focused in one place.
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  Speaker 2: I guess writ large, I would say the liturgical calendar
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  Speaker 2: has helped me to be more patient, actually, because I
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  Speaker 2: don't have to kind of capture all of the goodness
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  Speaker 2: right now. It's spread out over time. And I know
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  Speaker 2: now that I've been in this tradition probably for about
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  Speaker 2: ten fifteen years, I also know that, hey, I can
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  Speaker 2: enjoy this season, but it's okay if I don't get
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  Speaker 2: to do everything I want in the season, because it
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  Speaker 2: will come again. It will come again, and I'm able
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  Speaker 2: to rest more in the rhythms that early Christians have recognized.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it just strikes me.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the Lutheran Church had that cadence and it
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  Speaker 1: was helpful, and I can remember the changing of the
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  Speaker 1: colors and different things like that, and so I can
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  Speaker 1: still walk into my old Lutheran church and kind of
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  Speaker 1: understand where we're at. But I also think that you know,
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  Speaker 1: when we're we sort of have this no time right
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  Speaker 1: there isn't a cadence is just onto the next sermon
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  Speaker 1: series or onto the next you know, event that we're
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: going to have as a church, and it can be
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  Speaker 1: a little bit. I think that's part of the challenge
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  Speaker 1: of we find with getting too programmatic, is that we
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  Speaker 1: almost need these events to punctuate something within our cadence. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: you know, because we're trying to get we're trying to
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: move people somewhere, and so what do you do, Well,
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  Speaker 1: you have an event. Let's have an event. And it's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: if we had a calendar, we wouldn't need an event necessarily,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: like we'd have this stuff. So yeah, I was just
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  Speaker 1: sort of fascinated. I wanted to kind of hear your
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  Speaker 1: thought on that aspect of it, because you wrote on
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  Speaker 1: the time in between this time that is fairly unstructured
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  Speaker 1: and a lot of your insights, I felt like really
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  Speaker 1: conveyed that sense of when there is no structure, when
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  Speaker 1: there isn't a calendar, we are tempted to do different things.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like it has to be that, but we're
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  Speaker 1: certainly not guided and directed in the same way we
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  Speaker 1: are at lent or advent or what have you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's so well. Humans Humans like a rhythm,
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  Speaker 2: and we'll create it if we don't have it. But
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  Speaker 2: I would to say as well, I'm thinking my younger brother,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I am really close. He's remained in the free Church
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: tradition and doesn't like the structure of the liturgic culturch.
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  Speaker 2: It's not for everyone, that's fine, and we have wondered,
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  Speaker 2: my husband and I, if our children that we've raised
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: them here, they might make the same transition you do,
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  Speaker 2: that they need something fresh. So I don't like to
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  Speaker 2: claim that how we do it is the only or
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the best way, but I have found it meaningful, and
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  Speaker 2: I do think that is something very natural about wanting
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  Speaker 2: a structure given to us.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it has to go all
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  Speaker 1: the way back. I can do agree. I wouldn't advocate necessarily. Hey,
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  Speaker 1: everybody should go back to this, but I do think
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  Speaker 1: that the problem of cadence is a real one.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that's well said.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about you know, you
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  Speaker 1: in the inordinary time. It's such an interesting approach within
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  Speaker 1: the liturgical challendar because it's a blank space. So what
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  Speaker 1: did you find as far as historically and you know,
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  Speaker 1: from sort of the traditions of the church that help
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  Speaker 1: guide people through ordinary time? Are there those resources or
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  Speaker 1: are we thinking more just sort of generically, Hey, spiritual growth?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what a great, what a great question. There was
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  Speaker 2: some structure, and they came primarily through the readings. Christian
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  Speaker 2: worship has the beauty of lots of different things, these
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  Speaker 2: colors and song and smells and prayers, but we're rooted
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  Speaker 2: in listening to what God says to us. And that's
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  Speaker 2: true across all traditions, and so early on there was
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  Speaker 2: a movement that we're thinking about this growth in particular way.
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  Speaker 2: So we think about the grace of God, we think
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  Speaker 2: about our response, we think about what God empowers us
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  Speaker 2: to do, not just for our own lives, but as
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: we face outward. I learned from some those who study
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  Speaker 2: the early Church, and they said there was kind of
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  Speaker 2: a pretty tight fourfold rhythm of how we move through growth.
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  Speaker 2: In more recent developments, those have become a little bit
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  Speaker 2: they're not as clear cut, I guess, I would say,
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  Speaker 2: but those remembrances are still present in the readings gratitude, right,
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  Speaker 2: that's coming right after Pentecost. God was kind enough to
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: reach down and change us. And so you have a
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  Speaker 2: period of reflection and then you move into I need
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: to continue to think about I fall short, and I
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: need to think about the community outside of the church.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: So those are still preserved, but not quite as clean.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: The other thing that this season offers us, and I
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: ended up choosing several chapters to reflect on this in
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: the book, is that I believe it gives us a
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: chance to reflect on the kind of things that we
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: do all the time. So we have Trinity Sunday. Right.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: In some sense, you would say, well, we don't need
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: a Sunday because we talk about the Trinity all of
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: the time, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And yet isn't
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: it the case that the things that we do all
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: of the time, we actually need to focus on them
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: because they become so rogue they're just part of what
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: we do. We reflect on the Lord's Supper, and I recognize,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: you know, different trictionans to have different ways and different
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: rhythms of doing that, but that's a regular part of
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Christian worship. And so we have a day within ordinary
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: time to say, let's stop and think about what it
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: means to have this meal. So I love that that
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: we both have this kind of dynamism of growth that
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: leads us to that last Sunday where we proclaim Christ
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: as King. But we also have opportunity to reflect on
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the normal practices that we do all of the time.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you really do a nice job I think
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: of highlighting the challenge of ordinary practice, like where do
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: we find God in doing the dishes? I don't think
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: that's one of your examples.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: But well I drew that from my friend Tis Harrison
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Warren and her Liturgary of the Ordinary. I think there's
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: been an explosion more recently in asking this kind of question,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: like where's that not just on the mountaintop, but in
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: the normal stuff I do. She's awesome about that.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's sort of a difficult question to go with.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: But I think what I appreciated about what your book
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: brought out, at least for me, when I was reading
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: it was that idea of the necessity of reflecting on
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: these things, Like there's a way for us to just
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: sort of go through life and be like, well, that
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: day went somewhere. I don't know where it's gone. Now
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: we've gotten so fat paced and so much information coming
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: at is that a lot of times we're driven to
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: task as opposed to being able to step away for reflection.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: And even when we're not tasking, we tend to be
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: sort of tempted to just top on Netflix and stream
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: a whole show at one time. And you know, like
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: we've lost this sort of aged and that sort of
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: breakup of commercials even gave us at least a little
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: bit of time to take a break from a story, right,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: we just don't have that baked in anymore. And so
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: as I was reading through your book, that just came
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: to my mind because I think it maybe you'd agree
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: with this, but in order to find those things in
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: ordinary life and understand their significance, you have to also
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: have time to think about them. It can't just be
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing them.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredibly well said. It almost feels like, and
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I know people are doing this work that we need
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: to think more about humans and rhythms in light of
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: our technological world. Right, Jamie Smith wrote his book, he
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: talked a lot about the culture of the mall. Well,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: who goes to a mall much anymore? Not right? It
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: is a constant stream of consumerism of entertainment. And I
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: don't mean to be like super negative. I always feel
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: like I'm an old person, like, oh, that technology is there,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: but we do, as Christians, need to be very thoughtful
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: about it, and if we're always caught up in it,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: then we can't stop and think. And so worshiping with
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: fellow Christians according to a rhythm where we're all thinking
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: in the same ways reminds us that we're connected to
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: other people and gives us a little time out to
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: consider who we are and what we do. You've said that, really, well,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: that's important to do.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: That gets back to something I wanted to ask. So
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: we have this ordinary time, which within the Protestant tradition, right,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: ordinary time where we have more open space and we
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: can kind of do what we want. Yeah, isn't necessarily
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a good thing, and you can certainly see how it
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: can go off the rails. But then also you have
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: this sort of these lit of liturgical times that I'm
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: wondering if you can just comment on as you're going
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: through these, you know, the church calendar, going through Advent,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you're going through Lent. Some of my experience recently has
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: been that people just don't think about it. You go
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: through motions and so you have problems on both sides.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: It's like you become so familiar, yes, yes, that you
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: lose the significance of it and it almost feels like
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: it collapses into that ordinary time that you're talking about.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: You know that this idea that if we're not really
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: reflecting and deeply understanding it will lose it. So can
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you just kind of talk a little bit about any
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: insights you had maybe on ordinary time and relation to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the calendar, and how the formative effects of both of
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: those maybe are maybe need to be bolstered a bit.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful question. So, having just kind of
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: come out of Advent and Christmas, that's fresh on my
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: mind right. So Advent, I think is a really fascinating
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and I see more and more Christian communities wanting to
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: do some kind of practice of Advent. But if you
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: are liturgical, if you've grown up there. You know, the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: colors change, you know the readings, it doesn't. And so
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I think there is a responsibility for Christians, a responsibility,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: especially for those who are shaping worship, say okay, yes,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: this is a season of preparation, but let's give a focus. So,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: for instance, we ended up focusing on all the Isaiah
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: passages this advent and the theme of returning to God
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: and then lo and behold discovering that God has already
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: come to us. And that gave like there was a
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: boundary of hey, we're in a season of preparation, but
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: we also needed a focus. And this is where liturgical
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: traditions I think can learn from free church traditions because
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: everything is open. You all have to be really creative
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in telling your people here's our focus, here's what we're doing.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Our messaging is consistent, and there's a danger on kind
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: of my now my chosen tradition be like, well, we've
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: got the church calendar, we've got the lectionary. We don't
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: need to be we don't to think that much. We
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: still need to within those boundaries guide ourselves and our
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: people to say, what are we doing in this season?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And we need kind of a fresh focus to awaken us.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And it also says katechisis right any of our traditions.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: If people are only coming to worship, that's better than not.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: But there's not an opportunity then in a community to
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: reflect on what we're doing. So we need those small
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: groups in Sunday School there. I sound like a Baptist, right,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: like we need to just keep getting together. But I
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: think that's the rhythm for all of us. So I
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: don't know if that helps. But but then maybe what
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: that does for ordinary time is that it does say, Okay,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: this is a time of growth. We're a time of
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: listening to the life of Jesus. But that's why I
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: started the book, and I started my research recognizing that,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: you know, this is described as a season with no
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: feasts or but that's not quite right. There are these
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: little glimmers of celebrations that happen throughout and I think
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: that says something about God recognizing us as humans. It
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: would be really hard to go through twenty nine weeks
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: of drudgery, right, Humans kind of need a party, and
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: so we do have these moments where we're celebrating the
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: trying nature of God, the body of Christ. Different saints,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: different brothers and sisters in the faith that we think
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: about so and of course every Sunday is meant to
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: be a celebration. Every Sunday we are feasting with our Lord,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: and so we need we need those things sprinkled through
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: as well. In ordinary time is not just this kind
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: of wilderness.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it's really helpful to hear you
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: talk through that, because what I hear you saying is
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: there can be progress within the liturgical tradition. Yes, right,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: because you're consistently focusing in on something very particular. You're
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: helping people grasp what you're doing a greater depth or
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: from a different angle. You know, it's not like, you know,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: if we think about it to college, it's not like
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: you're taking you know, Bible one oh one sixteen times
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: over right, right, You're seeing a progression within that. And
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: even though the calendar comes up in the same at
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: the same time, which gives it to some structure, there
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: can be some interesting wrinkles within that to sort of
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: guide and deepen people's understanding and then also understanding that
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the ordinary time isn't just empty, that there's a there
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: is an ongoing influence within that calendar, even just from
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the Bible readings themselves that are intended to prompt our
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: reflection and give us, you know, this time to really
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: reflect and think and be formed differently. Right.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And you know, even as you say that my personality
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: type is I like doing things all of the time. Yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and so it's really been good for me to and
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I kind of talk about this in the beginning of
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: the book. It was funny when I was asked to
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: do this because I always felt like ordinary time was
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: just boring.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, long, I love that.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not that much going on. But it's actually
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: been really good for me both to realize it's not
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: boring and that was a discovery that I've really been changed.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I'm like so excited we're going to wear green this week,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Like I just cannot wait that we get a few
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: weeks of green, but also that to realize that there
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: are it's actually good for a person like me to
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: have seasons where there's not ninety important exciting things going on.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: If that summer season, that ordinary season feels a little slow,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: sometimes I need to listen to that as well. So, yes,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: is there growth happening. It's not passive, but it might
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: not be as fireworks as the other times. And that's
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: actually good. Right at the beginning of the book, I
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: reflect like, if we had something crazy, amazing or crazy
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: terrible happened every single day, there would be no time
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: to think about it. And so that's the other thing
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: that ordinary time offers us is to both reflect back
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: on the first part of the calendar year. Where did
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: God show up to us in Christmas? What did we
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: change or want to change about ourselves in Lent? And
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: then how are we going to get ready for this
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: next year. If we didn't have that quote off time,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: we wouldn't be able to contemplate the amazing things that
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: God had done and we'll do in the future.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: The other thing I've so yeah, I mean I thought
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: it was amazing. I would have felt the same way.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: It's like we're not doing anything. This seems like this
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: seems like my worst nightmare, like we should be doing
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: something right. And so what strikes me and just what
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you said is maybe two things. Number One, maybe we
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: do need to just change the way we talk about
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: that ordinary time, even within the Free Church tradition, like
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: taking the summer off probably isn't the best way to
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: message that yeah, right, everybody, you know, Jesus goes on
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: vacation exactly, Like, that's not really what we want to convey.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: But then number two, one of the things I was
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you about this is in
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: that ordinary time because the church is taking a bit
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: of a step back, you know, as a as an institution.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Let's say, the institution of the church is taking a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: step back, and they're not going to manage now what
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: happens in ordinary time as strongly as they might av Lent,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Pentecost all these other ones. Is there a sense in
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: which you see in the literature a difference between the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: formation that happens within a congregation underneath an authority and
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: the agency of individual Christians taking on the responsibility for
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: their own spiritual growth in ordinary time. I mean that
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: may be importing very today's cultural norms back on, right,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: but I just wondered if you found anything within the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: tradition to sort of even suggest that.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: If I'm sure, and this sounds like a really important question,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I'm capturing it. That ordinary
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: time because the church institution is not as kind of
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: hands on, offers a little more opportunity for individuals to
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: explore their growth. Is that what you're wondering.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that sense of Okay, if I'm outside of
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the I don't want to say program, but I'm outside
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: the church is no longer sort of driving this for me,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: it's taking its hands off the wheel a bit and saying, here,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you drive for a bit. I was wondering if you
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: saw any of that within the tradition or whether that's
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: something I'm just reading in, you know, from a that
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: is fascinating.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I've never thought to ask the question in that way,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: so I'd have to go back to some research. But
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: here's what strikes me is that in the intense seasons,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: maybe particularly lent, as we prepare for the major thing,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: there is a lot of admonition for people to be
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: either taking up new things or letting go of things
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: in their individual lives. So there's a lot of you
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: need to be driving the wheel at this time, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: almost really every day or you know, multiple times a week,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you can come and gather communally. And this is overseen
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: by the church. So if there is a chains that
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: just shift an emphasis that, I think maybe the difference
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and this could be modern you know, I recognize that
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Christians of the past and monasteries or you know, celibate
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: preas it would be different. But another thing that I
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: think in a modern context, ordinary time offers is a
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: little bit of a breather for church leadership. And maybe
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: then there is a demonstration there that hey, just like
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Jesus did throughout his ministry, we need time to retreat
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and kind of fill our own souls. Right, that's become
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the time where clergy can say, hey, I'm taking off
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: this week. You take off this week, because nobody can
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: take off during lint or Easter or Christmas or atod.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: And so in kind of an exemplar kind of way,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it says to the laity, oh, hey, you know, Jesus
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: took time. Our leaders are humans. They need to take
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: time to fill their souls. It's good for me to
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: imagine too, in this extended period of time, not how
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: am I doing the kind of intense practices of lent,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: but how do I kind of rest into the growth
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: that's happening. And this is where I think the nature
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: motif is really helpful. And of course that's throughout scripture.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Jesus is parable sure, right, yes, it's active, and we
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: want to be responsive to God. But growth is first
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: and foremost and primarily what God, through the power of
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: the Spirit, is doing in us. Now, my kind of
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: so teiology, my sense of how humans interact with God,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: is that we can resist that. But if we take
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: ordinary time to kind of relax into what God is doing,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: God wants to grow us, and so it becomes not
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: passive but more a time that you could think receptively
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: about what does it look like rest in God.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, I like that, thinking receptively
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: about what God is doing, stepping back and watching him work.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and these parables right like oh the harvest
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: sprung up and I didn't even do anything and it
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: happened overnight. I mean that could be dangerous of like, oh,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: you never have to do anything in your Christian life. No,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: that's not what, of course anyone would say. But I
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe my background or my personality. I'm tend
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: to be like I can if I work really hard,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: if I really try, then God will show up. And
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: sometimes the call is cease striving right, rest for a
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: little bit, know that I'm in control. And of course
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: we have that with the regular rhythm of sabbath, right,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Like that's why we take the day off, to know
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: we accomplish everything. What if we thought of ordinary time
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: almost as this extended sabbath of the church, here where
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: we rest in what God is doing.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really interesting concept. I mean, I think
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: we're so unattuned to the need for rest. Yeah, in
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways in today's world. I mean you're
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: even seeing it in scientific research on sleep and the
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: need for good sleep, Like there's a reason that stuffs
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: coming out, and it's because people don't sleep well. And
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: so you know, there's these new sort of emphasies placed
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: on the body needs rest. There needs to be a
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: rhythm here, you know. And this is actually really important.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: I do a lot in the fitness industry, and so
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: it's really important for your fitness and those kind of things.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: And so I think it sort of rings true to
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: me that we would have this moment in the midst
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: of the church calendar where we don't necessarily stop working
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: for twenty nine weeks, but we're not putting ourselves through
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: all the paces. Like there's something to the idea that
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: we've done the heavy lifting and now this is a
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: time for us to sort of take a step back
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: and reflect and rest and let the work we've already done,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the pieces that we've been participating with God in catch
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: up a little bit and let our bodies catch up
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: to that work.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Wow, somehow I love that. That's Yeah, such a wonderful conversation.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: I think those ideas were kind of nascent, but you've
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: articulated them really clearly. Well.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think the I feel like the book it kind
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: of brings them out. I hadn't ever thought about ordinary
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: time until the book, and so I was looking. I
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: picked it up, and I was kind of expecting the
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Liturgy of the Ordinary. That's what I was expecting, right,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, Oh, that's not what this
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: is at all. And so it sort of opened up
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: a whole set of different thoughts because I never really
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: thought about the whole in the church calendar. I need
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: to call it that. But you get what I'm.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Saying exactly exactly.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you one other because I feel like
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: it's almost obligatory for me to do this as an
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Old Testament guy. But your Image of God chapter talk
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: about how the image of God plays into ordinary time
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: a little bit. I was fascinated by your take in there.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: So that decision, just to back up for one second,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: is that as a Bible scholar, right, not no one
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: would be surprised that I'm like. The first kind of
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: question I ask is, well, how can I focus on
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the texts? Right? That's where I feel comfortable, I know
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: what to do. But then, shockingly, and it came about
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: because I was at a Christian camp several summers ago
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: and was asked to speak to the camp and I
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: was like, well, what are the lectionary passage? Right? Lectionary?
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: For those us? In the liturgical tradition, we're kind of
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: given a handful of scriptures each week as guidance of
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: what we could select. And I noticed that in this
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: ordinary time there was a focus on Abraham and Sarah
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: and Hagar and Ishmael and their families. And ended up
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: preaching through those texts and just felt like I discovered
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: and learned largely from my Old Testament colleagues reading from them,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: but just in God's word, this is amazing. And then
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: it struck me, this is an ordinary family, even though
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: God does something crazy with them, they have struggles, They're ordinary,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: So what would it look like to exegy to talk
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: about their story? In this book. And so that Image
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: of God chapter is the story in Genesis eighteen where
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: these angelic visitors come to see Abraham and says, I
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: mean it's a thorny, difficult passage, like is the manifestation
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: of God or the triune God? And so I in
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: that chapter reflecting on how do we see God? And
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: then when we see God, how do we see ourselves? Right?
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Because image of God and Christian tradition is both humans
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: are created in the image of God, and chiefly it
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: is Jesus, the son of God, who reveals God to
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: us and reveals true and ideal humanity. And so I
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: saw glimmers of that really powerful implications for that in
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: this interchange between these visitors in Abraham and Sarah. And
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: then that catapulted me into the hard stories of when
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Hagar ni Ishmael are sent out and then when Abraham
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: is willing to sacrifice Isaac, so that I mean, that's
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: always true. I spend so much time thinking about the incarnation.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Who is Jesus, how does he reveal God and humanity?
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: And it was fun for me to reflect on that.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And I think that's one of those examples in ordinary
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: time we say always our foundation of like human ethics
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: is that we all bear the image of God. That's awesome.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Let's press in a little bit, and these readings in
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: ordinary time allow us the space again to pause and
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: reflect on what that might mean.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I was both impressed and surprised that you would
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: pick Genesis eighteen. So I'm like, there's so much complexity there,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: just like you said, like there's a million things you
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: could go off on. But what I kind of loved
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: about it in the chapter as I thought about it,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like, there wasn't anything going on. You know, if
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: you go to Genesis fourteen, you know, Abraham's fighting a battle.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: If you go to Genesis fifteen, there's this grand vision.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: If you go to Genesis, you know, like there's always
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: something going on. Yeah, but not in Genesis eighteen. In
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Genesis eighteen, these angels just come up and visit the tent,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: like Abram is just hanging out with Sarah and like, hey,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: let's fix some some food. And then they don't really
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: do anything nor they just have a discussion. Yes, And
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: so I'm like, it's a beautiful picture of this ordinary
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: time that I think you're trying to illustrate. Even in
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the story. There's it's not a big event. It's it's
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: a conversation, right.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Right, It's a meal and a conversation. Well, that happens
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: three times a day, right, and that's when God shows
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: up to say I'm about to do something miraculous.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a that chapter I thought was
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: really well done. I love the I love the Genesis
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: eighteen piece. And then I think the last thing I
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: kind of wanted to ask you about was, or maybe
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: the last thing we have time for is the Trinity chapter.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier, you know, we have Grinity Sunday, right,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: We're constantly talking about the Trinity, right, and you have
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: a chapter called Triune. I'll admit I've always been it's like,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I believe in the Trinity, but I'm always uncomfortable with
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: it because it's so inscrutable, like you just don't know
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: what's going on there, and so I'm sort of fascinating
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to read the chapter. But if you could just give
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of what you're thinking
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: about in that chapter, how that impacts ordinary time, I
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: think that would really help help listeners.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, yeah, that was the opportunity again kind of
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: an overwhelmed to be like, in this little book, could
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I write a chapter on the Trinity where people have
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: still for a million fire?
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: But I approach it liturgically, Right, I take a look
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: at the prayers that we say each week, that's really
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: the focus some of the passages the celebration. My question
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: there was we say Fathers in Holy Spirit a lot
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: in really all Christian traditions, especially in my liturgical tradition.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: And that's some of my previous work is like, I've
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: always been energized what do we mean by this language
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that God has given us? And so here I attend
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: to and I want to be careful here, right, there's
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: so much danger with talking of the Trinity. But in
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: the liturgy there is an allowance for us to pause
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: and say, who is our Father? What are the aspects
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the revelations of God's fatherhood? And we have that in
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: a prayer. Who is Jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit?
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: And if someone is able to attend regularly throughout ordinary time,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: they're going to hear the proclamations of the revelations of Father, Son,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit, And of course they all work beautifully together,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: and that they are one God. But there are ways
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: in which scripture and church tradition gives us an opportunity
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: to think about God as creator, God as the father
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: who sends the sun, and the Son is the one
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: who reconciles the world, the Spirit as the one who
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: speaks through the prophets. There is a unity in what
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: they do, but there are also particularities of expression, and
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: in some ways I think I began that chapter with
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: that him Saint Patrick's breastplate, which is like this long,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: beautiful hymn of all the things about the Trian God.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: And we have to recognize that when we say this
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: language and prayer and worship, we are speaking back what
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: God has given to us. We are speaking truth. But
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: we do it in worship, recognizing that there is always
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: this sense of we can't wrap our minds or our
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: hands around it. Right. I love my theologian friends say
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: that if we could understand God and kind of wrap
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: it up neatly with the Beau, well, that wouldn't be God,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: because God, then we would be over God. God wouldn't
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: be sovereign over us. So readers may find the chapter
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: a bit dissatisfying, and that I don't know that I
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: give any like cute quips of here's how to think
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: about the Trinity, but more I'm saying, as you experience worship,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: how might you attend to the revelations of God, Father, Son,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I found it. I found that emphasis actually helpful.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I thought the Saint Patrick's poem was great. And one
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: thing that I so the State of Theology report came
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: out or they're familiar with that, but Liganeer did. And
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: so one of the one of the challenges in the
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: report was that people tended to evangelical Christians tended to
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: affirm the Trinity, but then when they were asked specific
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: questions about the Spirit, they called them a force. Yes, yeah,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I did that right, Yeah, And I just I was like, man,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: this chapter really conveys the idea that, no, the Spirit
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: is not a force, right, he gives power. Maybe, but
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: he gives the power, and so the Spirit is this person.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: And I thought all the theological arguments, those are important,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and they're interesting and helpful, but I think framing it
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: liturgically is actually more helpful. Like we're obviously missing something
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: somewhere where we're not really worshiping either in the power
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: of the Spirit or we're not worshiping the trying God
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: in a way, you know, like where are we sort
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: of messed up in the way we're talking about this
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: that people can walk away and feel like, you know,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit is basically like star wars.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, it's understandable. Of course spirit, the Spirit
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: hasn't been incarnate. But whateeople appreciate about our liturgy is
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: that we say the Nicene Creed each week, that long
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: affirmation of what Christians have always believed. And there's also
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: a practice of changing your body posture. So when we
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: speak of the sun, we tend to bow in reference
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: to the sun. That is an act of remembering the
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: incarnation that Christ came down took on flesh. It's kind
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: of a Philippians too move And then when you start
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: speak of the Spirit, you stand up again. And I
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: have often in my Christian life imagined like as I
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: bow before Christ, almost as he would like place his
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: hand on our heads, of like how he blesses the children.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: But then the spirit who empowers the prophets as one
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: who lifts our head also a person who is filling
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: and empowering us. So that bodily kind of posture of
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: you know, being blessed, bowing down and then being lifted up,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: because that the Spirit is the one who allows us
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: to go and do this insane thing that we could
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: not do on our own, proclaim the kingdom, and sometimes
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: personally right as we if we struggle a bit, then
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: we find no, we found our meaning and our purpose
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: and our call. It's the Spirit who allows us to
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: do that. So I've thought very personally of Jesus blessing me,
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: the Spirit lifting my head, and that has helped me
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: understand the Spirit not as a force, but as a
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: personal being who is at work within and through us.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Very good. Well, we're running up against time, so I'll
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: let you just one last question to help people understand
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: how they should approach this ordinary time. You know, what
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: did you learn as you after you wrote the book
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: that you would leave people with and say, look, this
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: is the value of ordinary time as you see it.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, I really for me, the shift in researching and
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: writing this book has been as I anticipate this time
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: of year, and especially the long period of time what
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: we're in right now is so short that the long
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: period of time, instead of being frustrated or like this
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: is going to be boring. I really have grown excited
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: about what is God going to do as just as
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you said, and we kind of let the work that
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: we've done of the year marinate. I'm on the lookout
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: for growth and that both makes me excited but also
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: teaches me patience. Right, if you're trying to grow something,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: it always takes longer than you want. But that doesn't
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: mean that God is not active. And so my admonition
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: would be, you know, if you've never thought about this
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: time of the church here, or if you've thought about
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: it kind of negatively as I did, prepare yourself through
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: prayer to say to God, I'm anticipating that you want
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to do great things. You want to grow me. We
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: know that God wants us to grow into the fullness
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: of the Statue of Christ. And so God, I'm on
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: the lookout for how You're going to do that in
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: this season, both through my response to you, you know,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: taking on some habits like thinking about your ways in
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: the world, but also maybe some time of rest in
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: you that you do this work because I'm not strong
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: enough to do it, but you will ensure that it happens.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: It proves it.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I've always approached advent with huge anticipation. I
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: love it. Right, it's we're getting ready. Can I have
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: that same posture for Ordinary Time? That's what I'm pressing into.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Well, Amy, thank you so much
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: for being here. Thanks for writing the book. I thought
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: it was great. And listeners, this is an IVP title,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: so we get a twenty percent discount if you order
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: off the link in the show notes and put in
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: the discount code, So please take a look at it.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: You can get this at the IVP Press website. Ordinary
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Time by Well. It's Ordinary Time, the Season of Growth
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: by Amy Peeler and part of the overarching series which
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: was give me the series Fullness of Time series, The
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Fullness of Time series. Yeah, so i'd encourage you. I
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: haven't read the other ones in the series yet, but
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I'm planning to. So it kind of took me back
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: to my roots a bit.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: And I will say they are really lovely little books.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: I've never written a book with so few footnotes. That's
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: not to say it's not research, but it's just something
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: you could sit down with a cup of coffee and read.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: It's a very easy read. Yeah not in not no, Wow,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: I couldn't you know, I didn't really need to read this.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: It was so easy. But it isn't you know, the
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: normal academic book with you know, the footnotes or you know,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: eighteen pages of endnotes somewhere. It's not that. It's it's
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: a great book. And again, really appreciate you writing it,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: really appreciate you being on the show. Thanks for being.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: Here, Thanks for such a wonderful conversation. I've had new
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: really realizations of season and talking to you, so thank you.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Oh hey, no problem, all right, everybody, Well, thanks for
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: sticking with us, Thanks for being here on the show,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: and we will catch you on the next episode of
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered
• 49:44
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• 49:48
  Speaker 1: and more.