Latest / ChangeMakers with Katie Goar / Episode 111 | Part One: Marion Mollegen McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development, HUD

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Episode 111 | Part One: Marion Mollegen McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development, HUD · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

0:05
Speaker 1: This is Change Makers with Katie Gore finding the right
0:09
Speaker 1: solutions for the affordable housing community.
0:13
Speaker 2: This week's change Maker is Marian McFadden, the Principal Deputy
0:17
Speaker 2: Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development at HUD, where
0:21
Speaker 2: she manages a significant annual budget of over ten billion
0:25
Speaker 2: dollars and leads a dedicated team of nine hundred professionals.
0:29
Speaker 2: Prior to her role, Marian significantly contributed to disaster recovery
0:34
Speaker 2: efforts and public private partnerships, demonstrating her unwavering commitment to
0:40
Speaker 2: empowering communities in times of need. Marian, Welcome to the podcast.
0:45
Speaker 3: Thanks Katie, thanks for having me.
0:47
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to have you here. And first let's
0:50
Speaker 2: talk about your career. You have such a wide variety
0:55
Speaker 2: of things that you've accomplished. I'm so impressed by this,
0:58
Speaker 2: but I really want to start hearing. Was there a
1:02
Speaker 2: particular moment or a project early in your career that
1:06
Speaker 2: really sparked your passion for housing and community resilience.
1:11
Speaker 3: I didn't even know when I started working at HUD
1:14
Speaker 3: right after law school that HUD had any role in
1:17
Speaker 3: disaster recovery. I just thought SEMA did all the work.
1:21
Speaker 3: But when I had been working at HUD as a
1:24
Speaker 3: career civil servant for about a year, nine to eleven happened,
1:28
Speaker 3: and my boss came to me and said, our office
1:31
Speaker 3: is probably going to get hundreds of millions of dollars
1:34
Speaker 3: to help with the recovery. And that hundreds of millions
1:37
Speaker 3: of dollar estimate or projection turned out to be three
1:40
Speaker 3: and a half billion dollars for recovery. And we lost
1:45
Speaker 3: a close family friend in the World Trade Center, and
1:47
Speaker 3: so I was immediately connected to the disaster recovery measure.
1:52
Speaker 2: So when you went through that process, what was it
1:55
Speaker 2: like from a public service perspective, Like, were you overwhelmed
2:00
Speaker 2: with the need or just walk us through what it
2:02
Speaker 2: was like serving in that capacity.
2:05
Speaker 3: There's never really a time when people need the federal
2:08
Speaker 3: government more than after a terrible disaster. So the process
2:13
Speaker 3: of asking the federal government for help starts with the
2:16
Speaker 3: governor saying to THEEMA, we don't have enough money for
2:20
Speaker 3: recovery on our own. We need the federal government's help.
2:23
Speaker 3: So I really took it as a solemn duty of
2:25
Speaker 3: the federal government to do everything possible to support recovery
2:29
Speaker 3: and back early in my career, disasters were much farther
2:33
Speaker 3: apart than they are now. You know, I worked on
2:36
Speaker 3: the nine to eleven recovery in two thousand and one,
2:39
Speaker 3: and then the next time we got that kind of
2:41
Speaker 3: money for disaster recovery was Hurricane Katrina Ritawelman in two
2:45
Speaker 3: thousand and five. So then they were every two or
2:48
Speaker 3: three years, But really since Hurricane Sandy, it's been almost
2:51
Speaker 3: every single year there have been really large events, and
2:54
Speaker 3: this year twenty twenty four, as we're recording, there already
2:57
Speaker 3: been more than twenty events in the nation this year
3:01
Speaker 3: causing more than a billion dollars of damage. So this
3:05
Speaker 3: has become the new normal and is something that the
3:07
Speaker 3: federal government has to support states, localities, tribes, and territories
3:12
Speaker 3: when they need support recovering.
3:14
Speaker 2: With your roles at HAUD, how have you seen head
3:17
Speaker 2: over the gears change and evolve as it relates to
3:21
Speaker 2: meeting some of those needs you just mentioned, or even
3:24
Speaker 2: meeting community planning and community development needs. What have you
3:28
Speaker 2: seen from AHAD perspective, Well.
3:32
Speaker 3: We're fortunate that we have a really great statute guiding
3:36
Speaker 3: us that roots all of our work in supporting people
3:40
Speaker 3: who have lower moderate incomes, people of modesty means. So
3:44
Speaker 3: whether we're providing support for rebuilding infrastructure, supporting small businesses,
3:50
Speaker 3: or doing housing work or planning, it's all rooted in
3:53
Speaker 3: the people who really need the support the most. So
3:56
Speaker 3: I think that's been a through line of my office's work.
4:00
Speaker 3: We just celebrated the fiftieth anniversary of the Community Development
4:03
Speaker 3: Block Grant program, and that program is the basis of
4:07
Speaker 3: our disaster recovery work, and so that has stayed true.
4:12
Speaker 3: But we've learned a lot from disasters from engaging with
4:17
Speaker 3: both the jurisdictions that were funding, but really the people
4:20
Speaker 3: who are benefiting from the programs and intending to benefit
4:24
Speaker 3: from the program. So one area where HUDs been a
4:27
Speaker 3: real leader is encouraging resilient building practices. Going back more
4:33
Speaker 3: than a decade, we've focused on using the opportunity of
4:36
Speaker 3: federal funding to make things the way that they should
4:39
Speaker 3: be and to solve multiple problems when spending grant funds,
4:43
Speaker 3: whether that's susceptibility to disaster risk or other challenges in
4:48
Speaker 3: a community.
4:49
Speaker 2: We mentioned storms, I also wanted to mention floods too,
4:53
Speaker 2: because that's currently on a lot of people's mind. How
4:56
Speaker 2: does HUD mobilize resources. What is the framework by which
5:02
Speaker 2: recovery from some of these things to those affected communities.
5:06
Speaker 2: What does that look like from HUD's perspective, walk through
5:11
Speaker 2: some of that process for us.
5:13
Speaker 3: I'm really glad you raised the question of floods because
5:16
Speaker 3: they cause the most damage in the United States in
5:19
Speaker 3: terms of monetary damage, and we know that homeowners and
5:24
Speaker 3: other building owners are less likely to have flood insurance
5:27
Speaker 3: than they are to have other kinds of insurance, so
5:30
Speaker 3: those damages are often borne by the taxpayer in providing
5:34
Speaker 3: support and recovery. So at HUD, we've focused on increasing
5:39
Speaker 3: our rebuilding standards when we provide disaster recovery funding, but
5:44
Speaker 3: also going broader than that and looking across all the
5:47
Speaker 3: support that HUD is providing to enable construction, and we've
5:52
Speaker 3: increased the standards for building in areas that we project
5:56
Speaker 3: are going to be subject to flood. So it used
5:58
Speaker 3: to be we only looked at the flood risk of
6:01
Speaker 3: a property, but now we look at the expected useful
6:04
Speaker 3: life of the building right, so areas that we think
6:07
Speaker 3: are going to be more and more likely to flood,
6:10
Speaker 3: and when communities have that information, they can make smart
6:13
Speaker 3: decisions about whether to rebuild the damaged property or start
6:17
Speaker 3: new construction on a property in an area that has
6:20
Speaker 3: flooded or is likely to flood, and if they are
6:23
Speaker 3: going to continue with the building, to make sure that
6:25
Speaker 3: they're taking steps to elevate the property or otherwise make
6:29
Speaker 3: it easy to bounce back after bad flooding of hers.
6:34
Speaker 2: You mentioned Community Development Block Grant Disaster Recovery. It's the
6:38
Speaker 2: acronym CDBGDR, which is crucial because it's got some unique flexibility.
6:47
Speaker 2: How do you, as a public servant here talk to
6:52
Speaker 2: communities who are in such a dire situation to let
6:57
Speaker 2: them know what this process looks like and what recovery
7:01
Speaker 2: looks like for them beyond just the programs, but what
7:05
Speaker 2: kind of messaging do you work with them on.
7:09
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the first thing I say when I
7:11
Speaker 3: go to a community that's receiving cdbg DR funding is
7:15
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. We have to have the conversation. There are
7:18
Speaker 3: many communities that have disasters that don't receive this special funding.
7:22
Speaker 3: We never get enough funding to help all communities that
7:25
Speaker 3: have federally declared disasters or even just emergency declarations. So
7:30
Speaker 3: if funding is available for a community, they have really
7:34
Speaker 3: been through the worst. But the program is very flexible,
7:38
Speaker 3: as you said, and so we encourage them to think
7:42
Speaker 3: about how to best use the flexibility. So our funds
7:45
Speaker 3: come from a special designation by Congress. Whereas FEMA has
7:50
Speaker 3: a fund that's available at any time to draw on
7:53
Speaker 3: to domergency response, we have to wait for Congress to
7:56
Speaker 3: provide funding. So usually when our fundings avail, a community
8:01
Speaker 3: has done some level of emergency response and disaster recovery
8:05
Speaker 3: work already, and so we help them think through how
8:09
Speaker 3: to approach using the new influx of funding. And one
8:13
Speaker 3: of the great things about the work that we do
8:15
Speaker 3: is that it all requires public engagement, public feedback on
8:20
Speaker 3: how to best meet the remaining needs of the community.
8:23
Speaker 3: Our funds aren't there to duplicate money that FEMA has
8:27
Speaker 3: provided or that individuals or business owners have gotten directly
8:32
Speaker 3: from the Small Business Administration. They do disaster loans and
8:36
Speaker 3: some grants after disasters, So our money looks at what
8:40
Speaker 3: are the remaining needs after the federal government has provided
8:43
Speaker 3: its funding from other agencies, but also after insurance has
8:47
Speaker 3: been through to help cover the needs. So once we
8:51
Speaker 3: get there, we're really looking at what's left to be done.
8:55
Speaker 3: And that often means a lot of housing construction. FEMA's
8:59
Speaker 3: assistant is capped in the low forty thousand dollars range,
9:03
Speaker 3: and after the worst disasters, that's simply not enough, even
9:07
Speaker 3: when paired with insurance dollars, to truly rebuild and put
9:11
Speaker 3: someone back in a safe home.
9:13
Speaker 2: One of the criticisms of disaster recovery programs is the
9:18
Speaker 2: time it takes. I have noticed that HUD is looking
9:22
Speaker 2: to streamline this application and the funding process to better
9:26
Speaker 2: quickly deploy some of these resources. Can you speak to
9:30
Speaker 2: some of what's happening or some of what you've accomplished
9:34
Speaker 2: or even hoped to accomplish.
9:36
Speaker 3: From the disaster survivor perspective, recovery is never going to
9:39
Speaker 3: be fast enough. There's no amount of time that's acceptable
9:43
Speaker 3: to be out of your home, right to be trying
9:45
Speaker 3: to deal with your life, your kids, your parents, your job,
9:51
Speaker 3: managing everybody's medical appointments. It's really overwhelming to try to
9:55
Speaker 3: do those things from a hotel or an airbnb or
9:58
Speaker 3: from someone's couch. So speed is of the essence in
10:02
Speaker 3: dealing with people's housing situations in particular, and then also
10:07
Speaker 3: on the physical side, the longer a home is left
10:11
Speaker 3: in damaged condition, the more likely it is that the
10:13
Speaker 3: damage will get worse. So you may have particularly issues
10:17
Speaker 3: with mold and other structural damage if a home is
10:21
Speaker 3: left out in the elements. So it's important to get
10:23
Speaker 3: the money put to work really quickly. But we don't
10:29
Speaker 3: have a standing pot of money to be able to
10:31
Speaker 3: support communities, So we wait for Congress to provide funding,
10:35
Speaker 3: and then we offer that funding to communities and let
10:37
Speaker 3: them do their recovery planning process. So one of the
10:42
Speaker 3: challenges that we've had is that weight the President has
10:45
Speaker 3: called on Congress to permanently authorize our program, it would
10:49
Speaker 3: be great to have access to standing set of funds
10:51
Speaker 3: so that communities could plan all their federal resources at
10:54
Speaker 3: one time and understand what FEMA is going to cover
10:58
Speaker 3: and where they addition support. But that said, the community
11:03
Speaker 3: engagement requirement that we have is at the state and
11:05
Speaker 3: local level. Had had never actually before this administration gone
11:11
Speaker 3: out to the public to say, how can we do
11:13
Speaker 3: our job better? How can we speed things up? So
11:16
Speaker 3: we went out and put out a request for information
11:19
Speaker 3: the Federal Register and invited comments on how we can
11:22
Speaker 3: speed things up, how we can make it easier to
11:25
Speaker 3: administer the funds, either as an individual receiving the funds
11:30
Speaker 3: or as a level of government responsible for administering them.
11:34
Speaker 3: How can we get more fair and equitable outcomes. It
11:38
Speaker 3: was great to put those questions out to the public,
11:40
Speaker 3: but a little bit be careful what you wish for,
11:42
Speaker 3: because we got more than seven hundred unique recommendations for
11:46
Speaker 3: updating the program. I joke, it was incredible. The public
11:51
Speaker 3: did not disappoint. We got a lot of affirmation of
11:54
Speaker 3: how valuable the program is in communities, but also a
11:57
Speaker 3: lot of idea as to how to keep it moving.
11:59
Speaker 3: So we're in the process now of finalizing changes that
12:03
Speaker 3: we're going to make to the program to achieve those
12:06
Speaker 3: goals that we set out to achieve, and our hope
12:09
Speaker 3: is that it will be a standing notice. We're calling
12:11
Speaker 3: it the Universal Notice, so jurisdictions will know in the
12:14
Speaker 3: future that it will govern no matter when Congress provides funding.
12:19
Speaker 3: That said, I can't bind future administrators of the program,
12:24
Speaker 3: So again, you know, we are calling on Congress to
12:26
Speaker 3: make the program permanent so we can do permanent regulations
12:29
Speaker 3: so everyone truly knows what they can rely. But we're excited,
12:32
Speaker 3: we're excited about the changes that we're making because we
12:35
Speaker 3: want the program to be more nimble.
12:37
Speaker 2: Being more nimble and having that streamline component, it all
12:41
Speaker 2: lends itself to better responsiveness and that's what this program
12:45
Speaker 2: can do so well. So I pluge you in getting
12:48
Speaker 2: some of that feedback and working through that process. There,
12:53
Speaker 2: you mentioned something and I want to bring it forward
12:55
Speaker 2: about equity and disaster recovery. I'm not sure how you
13:00
Speaker 2: worded it, but I have noticed that vulnerable populations are
13:04
Speaker 2: often hit hardest when these types of incidences and these
13:08
Speaker 2: occurrences happen. So is that something that you're getting some
13:14
Speaker 2: more clarity around through this comment process or is that
13:17
Speaker 2: just something that you've noticed through the normal course of business.
13:21
Speaker 2: And how does that look to make sure recovery efforts
13:25
Speaker 2: are equally inclusive, especially within marginalized communities. I know that's
13:30
Speaker 2: a loaded question, but I'd like to hear what your
13:35
Speaker 2: perspective is on that.
13:36
Speaker 3: Hey, if that's a loaded question, then it was a
13:38
Speaker 3: loaded question that we put out to the public too,
13:40
Speaker 3: about how can we ensure that the program's more aquitable
13:44
Speaker 3: and that we really are reaching all the people who
13:46
Speaker 3: need to be reached with support. So We have heard
13:50
Speaker 3: from our grantees and from disaster impacted communities that more
13:54
Speaker 3: can be done to reach everyone who's impacted after disasters,
13:58
Speaker 3: and so we need to be more in intentional in
14:01
Speaker 3: how we design programs and how we do the outreach
14:04
Speaker 3: about them, and how we support individuals and small businesses
14:09
Speaker 3: and nonprofits that are applying for assistance, so really sticking
14:12
Speaker 3: with people through the entire recovery cycle. So an example
14:18
Speaker 3: of that is assigning a case worker to stick with
14:22
Speaker 3: a family for an entire recovery process. One of the
14:27
Speaker 3: challenges that people have on the ground is I have
14:30
Speaker 3: to keep filling out forms over and over and every
14:32
Speaker 3: time I call, I get a new person to deal with,
14:35
Speaker 3: and it's just overwhelming. It's just frustrating and overwhelming. We
14:39
Speaker 3: hear that from I should say, disaster survivors, lots of
14:43
Speaker 3: different ages and income and education levels. So it's something
14:47
Speaker 3: that will be beneficial for everyone, but where we also
14:50
Speaker 3: see some disparities. Who hears about a program, who knows
14:53
Speaker 3: to come in and apply, who thinks the program is
14:57
Speaker 3: for them, versus who says, oh, that's not for me.
15:00
Speaker 3: Some of the largest fair housing challenges we've seen brought
15:04
Speaker 3: forward to HUT have been after big disaster recovery programs,
15:08
Speaker 3: and you know, how to ensure that we're designing programs
15:12
Speaker 3: that track where the need is going to be the
15:14
Speaker 3: greatest and really follow through to see where the dollars
15:18
Speaker 3: are going. So we making some modernizing the program updating
15:23
Speaker 3: so that they're better reporting requirements and better supporting our
15:26
Speaker 3: grantees and ensuring they're reaching the people who are most impacted.
15:31
Speaker 3: I will say, you know, we have a lot of
15:33
Speaker 3: rules on the books to try to ensure that this happens.
15:36
Speaker 3: For example, we have limited English proficiency requirements and supports
15:41
Speaker 3: for our jurisdictions to make sure they're getting the word
15:44
Speaker 3: out in the language that people speak. We have done
15:48
Speaker 3: toolkits on better community engagement to really support our grantees
15:54
Speaker 3: because we know that when we're handing them this funding
15:57
Speaker 3: there we have a lot on their plates because they're
16:00
Speaker 3: managing not just HUD dollars, but potentially the people who
16:03
Speaker 3: are administering these programs had impacts on their own families
16:06
Speaker 3: and their own lives, so trying to provide support to
16:10
Speaker 3: everyone in the process.
16:12
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we're learning all of these things with more and
16:15
Speaker 2: more disasters but it is also preparing the teams, and
16:21
Speaker 2: it's preparing the response to get better. So I suppose
16:25
Speaker 2: that's the unfortunate upside. I was boots on the ground
16:29
Speaker 2: person during Hurricane Sandy and most part of a call
16:35
Speaker 2: center in New Jersey, and I'm telling you, when people
16:39
Speaker 2: are in need, it's really hard for them to prioritize
16:43
Speaker 2: paperwork and nuances. So the easier the response team can
16:48
Speaker 2: make it with less friction makes a world of difference
16:51
Speaker 2: for that person in need. So good job on those toolkits,
16:55
Speaker 2: and good job on the accessibility components.
16:58
Speaker 3: Thank you. I would love not to be an expert
17:00
Speaker 3: in disaster recovery. I would love to see, you know,
17:04
Speaker 3: so much less damage happening in communities, But since that
17:07
Speaker 3: does not seem to be the way the trends are moving,
17:12
Speaker 3: we want to make sure that we can make it simpler.
17:15
Speaker 3: So you know, you know from the call center where
17:17
Speaker 3: you worked after Hurricane Sandy, people are overwhelmed, people are
17:21
Speaker 3: heartsick at what they've lost. But some people have said,
17:25
Speaker 3: you know, they're traumatized twice. The first is the actual event,
17:30
Speaker 3: you know, earthquake, fire, hurricane, flood, whatever it was that
17:34
Speaker 3: happened to them. But the second is the amount of
17:37
Speaker 3: time it takes to just get to the new normal
17:40
Speaker 3: that they just didn't understand at the beginning how long
17:43
Speaker 3: it would take. And so that's something we're really working on,
17:46
Speaker 3: is trying to meet people's expectations about a smoother process.
17:52
Speaker 2: When you were working with Hurricane Sandy, you were on
17:55
Speaker 2: a rebuilding task force. I'm eager to hear some of
17:58
Speaker 2: your lessons in your person perspective about your time when
18:02
Speaker 2: you were with them.
18:03
Speaker 3: That was an extraordinary experience for me. So the beginning
18:07
Speaker 3: of Hurricane Sandy, I was a career civil servant. I
18:10
Speaker 3: was working in Hut's Office of General Counsel, supporting things
18:13
Speaker 3: from a distance. But I had the opportunity to move
18:17
Speaker 3: into a larger role. So instead of being back office,
18:21
Speaker 3: really working with disaster impacted communities in Connecticut, New York,
18:26
Speaker 3: in New Jersey, and coordinating across the federal government. So
18:30
Speaker 3: President Obama tasked us with all working together to meet
18:35
Speaker 3: community recovery needs. And it's really hard to de silo
18:40
Speaker 3: the federal government to understand how to get our own
18:45
Speaker 3: barriers out of the way and meet communities' needs. But
18:49
Speaker 3: we worked really hard at doing it. We brought together
18:53
Speaker 3: really great people from across twenty one agencies and offices
18:57
Speaker 3: of the federal government, all with the single goal of
19:00
Speaker 3: supporting community recovery. We made sixty nine recommendations for rebuilding
19:07
Speaker 3: and provided billions of dollars in funding, but with a
19:11
Speaker 3: close eye on how we can take what the federal
19:15
Speaker 3: government knows, what we've learned from working on disasters across
19:19
Speaker 3: the entire country, and share that in support of local
19:22
Speaker 3: community recovery. President Obama was very clear with us. He said,
19:26
Speaker 3: don't bigfoot, don't tell states and localities what to do,
19:30
Speaker 3: but be a big support for them. So that's truly
19:33
Speaker 3: what we aim to do, and it was life changing
19:35
Speaker 3: for me to see what it looks like for the
19:38
Speaker 3: entire federal government to show up and provide that level
19:41
Speaker 3: of support.
19:42
Speaker 2: I want to talk about some of your other programs,
19:44
Speaker 2: but that'll have to wait until next time. Coming up
19:48
Speaker 2: in the next episode of Change Makers with Marian McFadden,
19:51
Speaker 2: the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development
19:56
Speaker 2: at HUD will dive into some of the alternative approach
20:00
Speaker 2: to expanding housing accessibility and affordability across the nation.
20:05
Speaker 3: It's been great for me to have the opportunity to
20:07
Speaker 3: travel around the country and see the innovative things communities
20:10
Speaker 3: are doing with casitas or accessory dwelling units, granny flats,
20:16
Speaker 3: different ways of taking a single family home and increasing
20:21
Speaker 3: the number of homes there. Right so, converting a garage
20:24
Speaker 3: into an apartment, putting a separate unit in the backyard,
20:27
Speaker 3: whatever it is. People are finding that that's a great
20:30
Speaker 3: way to make more housing available, whether it's for extended
20:34
Speaker 3: family or for neighbors to be able to establish their
20:38
Speaker 3: own homes given the house nationwide.
20:41
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