Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Jim Hamilton: Is Henry Pollock the Next Ardie? JK & Victor CLASH Over Hybrid Players

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Jim Hamilton: Is Henry Pollock the Next Ardie? JK & Victor CLASH Over Hybrid Players · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
You're in the pub, Victor.
0:01
Um, I just arrived back from Japan yesterday, so yeah, I'm sitting at my golf club's
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member bar. It's close to my house. I thought I'd pop in here and sit there.
0:12
He's normally teeing off. What time you're teeing off this morning, Victor?
0:15
No, no, no. I've got so much admin to catch up with after these two weeks in Japan.
0:20
So, all right, Ricardo, can you meet?
0:24
Yeah, we can, and unfortunately we can see you.
0:27
We're good looking man, actually.
0:30
I'm easily top five in this group.
0:39
All right, welcome to rivals, a special edition. We've got Victor Matfield and the other guy with
0:44
glasses. So, John Kerwin, and of course joining us this week, we've got Jim Hamilton,
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so Jim, we'll start with you. What do you think of the lines first up?
0:53
I thought it was good. So, there's been a massive buildup, as we know, especially on this
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side of the world, below the hysteria around what the squad's going to be, like how the
1:03
selection was done. We saw the videos if the player's been selected.
1:07
And you have this kind of mass buildup, right? And I don't want to say that it was underwhelming
1:11
the first game against the Western Force, but I think having the easier province for them to
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start off the back of the game against Argentina and Dublin, which wasn't a great spectacle
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from a lion's perspective, it's good to see them up and running now. And I know that bigger games
1:26
are around the corner, but yeah, if it was like now with all the big buildup, it's just good to
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get down to work as it were and get down to a bit of business, start looking at some of the
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combinations and start seeing some of the real quality come to the fore.
1:40
Jim, does it really matter? Like, if they win a series in Australia, no one will really care.
1:45
These games really about feral understanding whether anyone who's not from Ireland is good enough
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to beat the people that are from Ireland to get in the sight. I mean, is it a selection,
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you know, let's not worry about the results or what do you mean, JK? Tell me a little bit more specific.
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Well, for example, feral has complete confidence in his Irish guys, right? So he's going to have
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a preconceived idea who he thinks can play at this test level. Other results and the performance
2:20
as a collective less important than him going, look, my Irish guy at Centre or my Irish guy in the wing,
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let's try this English guy in the wing or let's try this, well, there's not too many Welsh people in
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the team, but, you know, is it really about understanding, he knows test rugby, understanding,
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JK, I know what you mean now, naturally, right? And we've seen in years gone by when Warren Gatlin was
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at the helm, right, with the backbone of the squad and the team and the test team being Welsh,
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if you think, as well, 12 years ago, when Brian O'Dress School was dropped in the third test,
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the great Brian O'Dress School, and there was the controversy around Jonathan Davis, the Fox
3:02
starting. So I think, naturally, I'm not saying there was bias back then because it turned out
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Warren Gatlin made the right decision, but Andy Farrell knows his boys, right? He does, but you've
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also got a look at the Ireland squad, there's been a few cracks and a few creaks in around the
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lengths of the squad, right, if you want to talk about Ireland, but in some of the big, big games
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that Ireland have performed, I don't want to talk about the quarterfinals, I don't need to.
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So there are clear voids within that Ireland squad or the Andy Farrell would be looking to fill
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if he had the opportunity to pick players from other countries as it were for Ireland specifically,
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but I think on the Lions now, I think he knows and understands that it is the four nations,
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and I know Wales have only got one now in Jettamorgan because Thomas Williams has had to go home
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with injury, which is a real shame, but it's undeniable though a lot of the Ireland players are
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the best players in the world. You look at the likes of Joe McCarthy, for example, if he was a
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kind of a 50-50 going in because you've got an Ollie Chesson who has been really good for England
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and you've got even the likes of James Ryan, I know he's Irish as well, but off the back of his
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performance, it's like, okay, well he's probably our guy. There'll be players up for debate around,
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maybe the loose set, Alice Genghis has been brilliant, he's a kind of natural leader, a big
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voice within that. Is he a 50-50 with an Andrew Porter, for example, would he then favour
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an Andrew Porter because he's Irish or an Alice Genghis because he's a leader, but I think naturally
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JK, the makeup of this Lions team is going to have a big Irish influence. Dan Sheen is going to be
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a starter at Hooker, he's got the leadership credentials as well to have that. We've mentioned
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Joe McCarthy, it'll be interesting to see how Tyke Firlon comes through because he's been injured
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all year and he's nowhere near back to his best yet, but he's going to get that opportunity.
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You know, the talk of Jack Conan number eight, does Henry Pollock make that position
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his own because he offers something a bit different, but I think and you all know as a coach,
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what experience in that position, the eight, Josh van der Flier at seven, you know, the number
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seven's up for debate as well. James and Gibson Park is nailed on at nine, so it'll be good to see
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how his combination with the Finn Russell goes because it will be him and Finn Russell, and then
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the talking point over this part is around the back three and whether or not Hugo Keenan gets
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back from injury and gets back to his very best, but also Matt Hanson, he's a big fan of him,
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but then you've got Tommy Freeman as well, who's been standing out for England and the
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center as well, like Gary Ringrose is one of Andy Fowler's boys, isn't he, but Hugh Jones
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has the attacking threat. The only two are Pallotti's stats, it's well for many people, but we know
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that Bundy Ackley's quality as well, so there is question marks and there is conversation around
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some of the players, JK, but I think you all know having been a coach as well, you'll go with what
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you know and who you trust, and I think we will see a big Irish kind of spine to the team.
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Hasn't it been good? I think from Andy Firl, he's really mixed up the combinations.
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If you think about Hugh Jones, Tupelotto hasn't played together, I mean Tupelotto with Ringrose,
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Bundy, now Hugh Jones with Bundy, and in the forwards as well, loose forwards, mixing them up,
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giving them opportunities with other players, so I think it's actually been very good and it can
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be good for the squad as well, so that players play together, they get a feel for each other,
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you can see our different combinations work because it's always easy to go back to the
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tried and tested, but isn't that what British and Irish Lions is about? Is there a special
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players to put them together and to see new magic to be made on a British and Irish Stewart?
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A combination is a thing now, German Victor, that's what I've been pondering over the last 24
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hours, right? Because of my day when I knew my centre inside out, so I could just about run
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blind for it, but now you're seeing multi-positional players, you know, you're seeing
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they're talking about Rico, you're only playing on the wing this week, you know, players are playing
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in different positions, so Victor, if you've been locking with your South African lock and then
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you go to the barbers and find someone else and you've got two weeks to sort stuff out, I mean,
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is it a real issue now or a combination's just the thing in the past and these players are good
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enough to adapt? I think they can't do that. I think especially the top-class players, I've seen
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it with the barbarians, I mean, you put a free-der pre-emat guitar next to each other and it was just
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magic, it just worked, everything was just freeing, it looked like they've played together for 20 years
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and I think if you've got this certain type of player, let's say a U Jones, he likes to play someone
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that runs hard, he likes to play with someone that can put him away, take the ball to the line,
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give him options on the line, so if another player that hasn't played with him, but they have the same
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qualities, then I think they do play together, same in the locking combination, some of us don't
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like the physical stuff, we need someone that's physical that plays with us, understand, so I think
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it's just that combination of knowing the strings of the player and helping them with their weaknesses
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as well with the combination that you pick. I think the biggest combination one that needs to stay
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fit and they need to get right is around 9-10, so Jamesson Gibson Park is key to how Ireland specifically
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and lengths to attack, he's one of the best scrimp halves in the world, but then you've got Finn
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Russell at 10 who is and holds the keys to the attacking kingdom for Scotland and probably how
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the Lions want to play, so in Jacob they need to get that 9-10 right because if you have two,
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let's call them Alphas in their roles and they want to control the attack, whereas you look at
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Ireland, since Johnny Sexton's left, they've been mixing their 10 and Jack Crowley and Sam
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Printagast and Jamesson Gibson Park has basically been running the show, so he controls the runners off
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9, he controls the direction of what they want to play, whereas for Scotland Finn Russell does
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that completely, he is the master when it comes to that, so they're the combinations, I think the
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other one's, I mean the other one, the conversation is around the center partnership because of the
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way that Hugh Jones plays, but he needs, like Victor said, probably more of a ball inside him
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as a 12, and he only plays a little bit more than with the ball in hand, but I think the rest
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of the combinations you are right, but I think the backline specifically and how they want to play
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against Australia, they need to get that partnership of 9 and 10 right first, and then I think the
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centres and the back three, because there's a few positions there that are up for debate I would
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say. Finn Russell is a great conversation for me because I absolutely love him, you know,
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you hear all these coaches talking about play what's in front of you and then they normally play by
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by colours, right, but Finn Russell tap and go the other day against the Western force, you know,
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great decision, saw the defence was an organised, is that going to win test matches for the lines,
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is that going to scare Farrell or is he going to be excited by that?
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Well again, like Victor, I spoke to Argy Sniiman, and we were talking about how the differences
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in Ireland are playing at Lancet and Bunkster for him compared to South Africa, and he said that
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how strategic and how much strategy is involved in the Ireland setup, which is in most teams, right,
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and in South Africa, your point of difference has actually probably been able to move away from
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that strategy and having out and out brute force and quality across the pitch. But that then comes
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to, if Andy Farrell wants to play that strategic way and he's a heavily set up around strategy and
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around pods and around kicking percentages and around your scrum part of, and then you've got
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Finn Russell who literally plays what he sees. Yeah, he can fit within structure, and he's a lot
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better at that, he's been a back under Johan Van Graham and fitting in with that structure with
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quite a dominant scrum half and Ben Spencer inside of him, and there's a lot more kind of strategy
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involved a week in week out and the quality of players that have after got on how he brought them in,
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but like he said, JK, I think if Finn was a couple of levels below when it came to quality and
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played how he played, I imagine every coach would be tearing their hair out, right, because he's
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tapping and going, Crossfield kick off the cuff, he's throwing into set passes, which he does in
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big games and manages to bounce back. But Johnny Sexton's in the camp as well, who's a heavily
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heavily structured player as an Andy Farrell's guy, Finn got interviewed before the first game,
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and they said, oh, how is your relationship with Johnny Sexton and he gave a kind of rise smile,
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like, you know, it's been okay, I speak to Johnny a little bit, but you do wonder whether or not.
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I don't mean personally, I mean professionally whether there's a conflict in how they see the game.
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So it's going to be an interesting one, but if not Finn Russell, then who else can they go to,
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if Finn Smith is a more, yeah, would fit within what you would be seeing as an Andy Farrell
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strategy, but I think that Finn Russell is quite a distance ahead when it comes to out and out
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quality and the proven test performer. Yeah, JK, I also think I think I know you aren't from
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really well. He loves structure, but he loves with any structure to have a 19 that can make
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decisions at the line under pressure. If you look what Ireland has probably been messing in the
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last two, three years since Johnny Sexton is not there, is that guy banging in that position,
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getting the ball, ball and making good decisions under pressure. And I think that's what Finn Russell
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brings to the game. I mean, he takes the ball very flat, he goes to the line, he's always looking
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for opportunities, but he can also play the pressure game. We saw with both. I mean, they were probably
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the one team that really played that pressure game that got into the right areas of the field,
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but again, even within that structure, they were never scared to take a quick tap or if something was
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on to play it out of the 22. And I think that's what you want. With infrastructure, you need
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good players at 9 and 10 that can make good decisions under pressure. And just one last thing on
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Finn as well, when it comes to defensively, he is one of the best defendants that's played the game,
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very brave, a great shot tackleer. And again, this isn't me speaking bad about any players that
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have played before, but if you look at Sam Prentegas for example, you look at even Johnny Sexton
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to a degree or some of the other world class tends that we've seen. Andy Farrah hasn't had the luxury
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of having a defensive 10 like Finn Russell, which a lot of people forget as well. And as we know,
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the Australians are a lot more physical now at how they play with the ball at the line and down that
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channel as well. For the first time ever on this show, you see the earlier, I know what you mean,
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JK. So those are the first time those words have been added. I should have said sir at the
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beginning, it would have added more weight. I just want you thoughts everyone on Henry Pollock,
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came down here with big wraps and everyone talked about them. You know, I think for the opposition
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teams and opposition fans, he's going to be a little bit annoying. He's just got that personality
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about them, but that's special things on the field. So what was your thoughts on a international
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level? I mean, I heard or read whatever Sir Ian McGeechan talking about him not being ready.
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And you know, he's one of our elders and one of the most astute rugby people in the world.
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And I agree. I agree he's possibly not ready for the 15, but he's certainly ready for the 23.
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When was the last English loose forward that you saw that had the acceleration of a back
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can sidestep, can chipkicks. You know, I remember back to Adi Savia. You know, Adi Savia
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was him and not making the side from the 15s point of view, but what they were bringing him on.
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And he was, he's an X factor. I think against Australia, he needs to be on the bench.
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Is he going to make a mistake? Possibly. Is he not going to have the tackle count of another
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loose forward? Yeah. But you bring him on as an impact player, man. He's going to really put some
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fear into the defense. So while he might not be ready for the 80 minutes as a grinder, I'd have
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him definitely on the bench. See, John McLakey and his bomb squad coming off the bench,
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making a difference. But I think that's what the game is about these days. It's about 23 players.
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How do you use them to the best advantage to the team? And I'm with John. So I don't think
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we'll see him in a starting lineup. I think when the pressure is on, when the big physical
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heats are there, he's probably not the best yet, although he's brave as well. But when the games
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open up, it's so nice to see him to come in looking for the ball, getting that offloads going.
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And it's probably the same as an OG. I still think an OG is also better off the bench.
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You've just got these certain players that got something that you want to put on the field
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once the game is open up. Yeah, I mean, it's everyone's talking about Henry Pollock. And
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on the podcast we do, we were talking about kind of outside boulders if you want to call them
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that a few weeks before the squad was picked. And Henry has just turned 20 years old and I said,
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look, this lad's going to go because of all the stuff that you've just said, JK, his speed
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with ball in hand is acceleration, his footwork. Forget the circus around him and the social
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media stuff and all this. Let's call it superficial just for now because we're talking about
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the British and Irish Lions playing a test match against Australia. Forget about that stuff.
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If you just looked at the out and out quality of what he puts on the pitch,
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Lentster was when he really took off because he played in a semi-final away from home against
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basically the island, that road and carved up. He scored a triumph in basically the halfway line,
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split three international defenders and went round some printed gaster score. You know,
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yeah, you had all the celebration and all that stuff and whether you like that or low,
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that doesn't matter. It's important for the game, growing the game and all this. But if you
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look at the out and out quality of the kid, every time he's been given a task, he's delivered.
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And like JK said, yeah, there's errors in him and there will be errors and he's made errors.
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He got stripped in the Argentina game at the end of the game and that was the end of the game.
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Mr Tackle and that game as well. If you're going to start picking things out,
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but the fact that he keeps turning up, he keeps getting the ball in hand, like the little nuances
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of he made a break in the first game against the Western forces, the chip and chase,
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got held at eight meters from the trial line, but he had the, I suppose, the athleticism,
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but also the thought process to get back and put his feet, leave the ball on the floor,
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make another two or three meters and then the Lions end up scoring off it. So he's 20 years old
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and already he's showing things and I actually, I love the comparison to Ardice Ave.
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And I think it's right that you can compare it to a younger one. No one else has done that
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because you're not willing, maybe to put it out there as comparing Henry Pollock to one of the
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best players that's ever played the game and won the greatest players playing at the minute.
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So, but I think it's a great comparison. I had this interesting conversation, just going to go
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a bit of a piece of it because while you annoy me, Victor, this is the fourth fifth week in a row,
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you're bringing up the very bomb squad. I promise we wouldn't tell that. I want to ask you,
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I just can only come onto the field when they say injury. Now you still want to bring Pollock
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off the bench. This is the same as a bomb squad. What's the difference? You're making a difference
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or a nine coming on when the other nine is tired. Then everyone should stay on.
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I had an argument with another forward yesterday. I was having this beautiful lunch.
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And what, sorry, before you go, what did you say about South Africa playing a center on the
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loose forward? See, we're starting using even the backs in the forwards now.
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Okay, so here's my philosophy. Do you want to fundamentally change the game?
18:39
Because this is what my mate, so Fabiongo played for me with Italy. His scrum coach for Beneton,
18:47
very good scrum coach. And he said to me, and we're talking about you, Victor, and the bomb squad.
18:54
And I said to him, so he said to me, okay, the modern game, you can forget all that old shudder
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yours. He said, you give me a loose forward and I can make him competent and safe in the scrum.
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Yes. Right. So that he can cover. So I can make him, I'll repeat this is I can make him
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competent and comfortable and safe in the front row if we need him to cover. And I said, look,
19:19
as a philosophy and as these athletes grow, I understand what you're saying, but I fundamentally
19:26
disagree with it. And I fundamentally disagree with it because if we're going to have people
19:30
covering loose forward and prop or wing and lose forward, we're going to have this one type of
19:39
player. We're going to have this big, big, big who is like you, Victor, will not be part of the
19:45
game and you, Jim, you're both bloody mountains of men. We're going to have this, this stereotypical
19:52
rugby player because we're all going to be moving around. So for me, it's a fundamental philosophy
19:57
of the game. I don't think, and I'll give you this, Victor, I don't think the bomb squad comes
20:01
into this because I think that's a tactical error. But having guys that are covering wing and
20:06
fullback, that means we're not going to have, we're not going to, we're not going to have Colby in
20:10
the future because he's not going to be able to cover lock or he's not going to be out of
20:14
colour loose forward. So for me, it's a fundamental philosophy of the game that we're changing. So
20:19
we're going to be a one-size-fits-all and in ten years time, which really worries me.
20:24
No, it is interesting with, I mean, I do love the bomb squad and I know it's a topic of
20:29
conversation and even Eddie Jones was talking about these hybrid players, wasn't he? I think
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was it Ben Early was talking about Jack Null back in the day about moving Jack Null onto the flank.
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And never quite got to that point of doing it. And then you see we're actually with
20:43
Andre Estahes and the weekend playing flank and you look at the quality of some of these props
20:47
now. Like Ellis Jones could play in the centre. The athleticism that he's got on the speed and
20:52
the power and he played very similar to, but in the after, when he carries the ball, you know,
20:58
if he was fresh, you could do that. But there's a tradition inside of me as well, Sir John, where
21:03
is, you know, you're chasling Colby's and you've rode your italics and I was going to throw my name
21:09
into the mixture, I'm not, but you victim up fields and your back is both as your Darcy Graham's,
21:14
for example. Like, that is what the game is. And as much as I do, I do look ribby league and the
21:20
NRL and stuff like that, but it is amazing still that you can see these six foot ten,
21:26
RG Stymons walking around next to a chasling Colby and they're both what you would class as
21:30
world class, the best that's ever lived, ribby union players. And I never want to lose that,
21:35
but I do understand the innovation and I just think it needs to be clear across all the
21:40
leagues and what we do like. So I watched the top 14 final at the weekend, I don't know if you
21:43
watched it, but I couldn't even work out that some of the players were going off after 30 minutes
21:49
the prop, went off for Bordeaux, came back on on 50 and then some of the players were kind of
21:57
interchanging and me and Bernard Jackman were going back and forth on like what and he said,
22:01
yeah, he said it's just a bit of a free throw like some of them come back on for blood or whatever
22:05
all later on in the game. So I am worthy on the fundamentals and look, I would always like
22:11
there to be a place for a little sped prop that needs to play the game, a tall thin guy that doesn't
22:18
like contact like myself in the second row, a short open cider, 19 small guys, wingers, I mean
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and if you again, if you look at the South African team, that has come to the fourth again, I mean
22:32
our props are very good at scrimmaging, we've got two of the biggest lock forwards,
22:39
we've got exactly the type of loose force, you've got an open cider, blind cider, you've got an
22:44
eight, we've got small wings again, that's dangerous with ball in hand, so but then you go to the
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bench and I think that's where the difference is, how you look at your bench, what impact can they
22:57
make, where can you use them, how can you use them to the best for your team, and I think that's
23:03
where the innovation comes in, how do you use that bench, but when you go back to the starting 15,
23:08
I mean they need to be able to do the basics, the fundamentals that Draco is about, they need
23:14
to be able to do that. Answer me this thing, every single game of watch in the last four weeks is
23:20
how to yellow card, so we have gone over the top for safety I believe and you know we want to
23:30
keep the players safe, but I think we've gone over the top, we haven't quite worked out what is
23:36
intent and what is you know sort of a time speed issue, so can you tell me is it safe to take a
23:47
winger and put them in the loose forwards without completely understanding the play, you know,
23:55
and I think my real question is do world rugby need to look at this, and I understand the innovation
24:01
and go are we fundamentally changing our game and who can play it in the future by allowing hybrid
24:08
players, and my answer is you are, you will be, so off the bench Victor, they'll start with off the
24:16
bench, but you know, you know these coaches, you've just been with Eddie Jones, he will be already
24:21
looking at how he can hybrid another 10 players, because that's their job, that's what they do,
24:26
so are we fundamentally risking out the beautiful nature of our game, which is you know,
24:33
tall skinny, you know squat, whatever, and I believe we are, and I think it's a massive
24:40
massive issue that we need to address. I don't think we should look at South Africa specifically
24:44
with this, because they are outliers in terms of the quality of athletes they've got, I think
24:49
naturally we're getting closer to that anyway, look at Tommy Freeman, for example, just to name one,
24:53
or James Lowe to name another, but these lads are like that rowers now already, Andre S the Hayes
24:58
and he's built the size of a bat rower now, so I think we are just with the professionalism of the
25:04
game, which is probably the wrong word, professional for a long, long time now, I suppose the athletic
25:09
profile are some of the players that we're now seeing, outside of South Africa, because you've got
25:14
currently Aaron, so you've got Chess and Colby, you've got two of the smallest wingers profile
25:19
point of view in the world, but the rest of the teams, it is starting to look like that, JK,
25:24
it is the props are now starting to look like the bat rows, the centers are starting to look around
25:29
the same size as some of the bat rows as well, you know, Blake Kinghorn is six foot four.
25:34
Did you see a, a sonati, our new tight hit prop, he doesn't look like a loose foot?
25:39
I said South Africa, I said, the South Africans are very different, so take, take a bite.
25:46
I know, but I know that you're big on this, Jake, I've seen some of your comments around it.
25:50
For me, I do like innovation, but I don't want to lose the essence of what the game has been built
25:58
on, of all shapes and sizes, and I don't think we will, I think we, I say that who knows where
26:04
it will look in 10 years time, if, if Rassia Raspus's plan works, and we do see Eddie Jones come back
26:10
to England and bring Jack Old back playing from the wing into the bat row, but yeah, I think
26:14
naturally you'll know the innovation around coaches, everyone's looking to see, right?
26:18
Can we have an Andre S the Hayes and playing in the bat row and have an extra bat row on the bench?
26:23
It doesn't really matter South Africa, because you do that anyway with your seven-one split,
26:27
but could that eventually fold into eight, being on the bench and coming on and
26:32
causing injury, I suppose, if plays at the team?
26:35
Jake, what's interesting for me is you always loved Super Rappi, and I felt in our days with Super Rappi
26:42
the players became almost like Rappi League, where I mean, everyone had to be
26:49
fast and athletic, where the moment you go to test match Rappi, then there was a place for slower,
26:57
bigger, really physical players. I mean, a guy like Bucky's Boota at the end of his career
27:02
struggled in Super Rappi. He went over to two-law and one-three-ionic and cups, because the game
27:09
was different. So again, I think it's how you look at the game. If I look at Super Rappi in the days
27:15
when it was at it-based, you would have to pick 15 athletics, athletic guys. You can't pick a
27:21
guy that's slow, because you won't be able to keep up with a pace of the game. We're in
27:26
test match Rappi, I think it goes a little bit to the other side. We're physicality,
27:33
set-piece dominance, kicking those things, control the game and dominate the game. We're
27:39
Super Rappi, some of the other competitions attacking players, will you dominate again?
27:44
I think it's a little bit different than that, Victor. I think what we've become, so
27:50
on way older than you guys, but when we played, it was an aerobic game. What we've turned into
27:57
is an aerobic game. We're hitting more towards American football, where it's a stop start. When
28:07
it becomes an aerobic game, if you ask the modern rugby player now to run 5K, they'd be dead.
28:14
But you get them to do 25x40m sprint. They're fine. You get them to go to gym. I remember we'd
28:21
go to the gym and I'd do 80 kilos on the bench press. Now, Bundy Ikea, I'm sure doing 180 or
28:28
200 on the bench. This is one of the other arguments that I talk about. If we speed the game up,
28:35
then you need all those different sizes. If we keep staying at an aerobic game,
28:40
then I mean, just by, I mean, I've watched Bundy Ikea, I probably get you to do this ricada. Next
28:48
week, let's put a shot of Bundy Ikea playing for the Chiefs up and him playing for the Lions last
28:56
week. That is a different athlete, man. That is just a different human being. That's because it's
29:02
an aerobic. You can use all this power and all the strength and you get time to recover.
29:06
Then you can put a camera on Damien Dallende and he's probably putting the most meters in on
29:11
the pitch. I don't think all the players are the same. You pick them for what they're good at.
29:16
Bundy Ikea will never be a guy that runs 5-6 skays in a game, but it impact with ball in hand
29:24
is what you pick him for. Victor, were you happy with the South African display against the
29:29
barbarians? Yeah, I was actually a bit worried because they just came together. It was a pretty good
29:36
barbarian steam, but I think the weather played into our hands a little bit. We know the barbarians
29:41
want to throw it around and yeah, I think in that weather conditions just bit difficult. They made
29:47
a lot of mistakes and we know South Africa from turnovers without back three is just so dangerous.
29:54
I think they were very happy with the game. Maybe the scrum, not as good. We're going through
30:02
the phase where we need to change that front row. So I think scrum-wise we would want to do better,
30:09
but a few players that came back, I thought Louis de Yorker was outstanding.
30:13
Jason Creel looked good. Sasha is doing fantastic at 10 as well.
30:21
Yeah, and then it's nice to see those two little wingers back and I mean with ball in hand,
30:26
they're just magic. Do you know anyone else to watch the game? I just thought that
30:32
you know, people said, oh, the barbarians did it. You see, sorry, you see, go be running over
30:38
the one loose for it. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. May they see if he's going to just boom. Yeah.
30:44
Crazy. Yeah, you know, like for me, like for me, I think that, you know, people said that the
30:51
barbarians didn't front or, you know, that's not true. The barbarians play a style rugby and they
30:57
always play a style rugby. You always have a great week. I just think that this is a, you know,
31:03
when the Orbalax won back to back, you know, between 211 and 215, they were just this jagger
31:09
naught. They had complete confidence in their systems, their coach. And no matter who we brought
31:15
in, he was, he was a world class straightaway. And I just think that's where, so they're
31:19
vicarian rassias at the moment. They're just in this, in this balance of rugby that, you know,
31:26
they're just going to be very, very hard to beat, which I'm so looking forward to.
31:31
You know, their test matches, Victor, I don't know if it's going to get them ready for the championship,
31:36
but I just agreed to do something for the test match in an Auckland, which I think it's going
31:42
to be an amazing series. The championship's going to be amazing this year.
31:46
But Auckland's test match is probably going to be one of the biggest test matches in a very
31:50
long time. Yeah. Yeah, championship's awesome. But he says it globalised the season, all that,
31:55
that I absolutely love the championship. And that's where, you know, with Arshantina as well,
31:59
we've seen the quality event from being in that tournament. We said that from the start,
32:04
like mass jeopardy. Yeah, it's iconic on this side of the world as well. So, yeah.
32:10
So that leads nicely into the all Blacks. So they play France this weekend, not the strongest
32:14
side that France has ever sent down. They've already got a few injury problems. I think
32:19
their average, they've almost half the team are uncapped. So, you know, it's a massive challenge
32:27
for France against the All Blacks. So, what do the All Blacks, what's the All Blacks mindset going
32:32
into a game like that, Jacob? Well, the All Blacks mindset's always been, especially early in the
32:37
test series, is getting our shit together. They won't be worrying too much about France. You
32:42
can't watch any video. You don't know who's playing. Some of the players won't even know the
32:46
opposition's names just because they've been concentrating on Super Rugby and some of these guys
32:53
are second or third pick. So, it's a banana skin really, you know. What they'll be concentrating,
33:00
I reckon, is getting a real flying star. Like with a French team, you've got to bash them early,
33:06
get on top of them early. Make sure that the doubt they've got in their mind, you confirm.
33:10
But it's a hiding to nothing. You know, it's interesting, Jim, what you said about the final
33:16
the other day. The thing is with the French is they just flaunt the rules that we all stick by.
33:21
And that's just the French and they don't really give a shit. I think for Gutierre, it's just a
33:28
fantastic opportunity. The presidents of the club have said, I don't take your top players.
33:34
So, he has an opportunity with nothing to lose to take all these young guys and out of it,
33:39
he's going to get five or six more test players. I don't think he'll be too concerned about the
33:43
results. He'll be going, if I go home with 10 new players that can help me join the six nations,
33:49
then I'm a happy man. Yeah, it's a pity. I would have loved to see
33:54
very strong French side playing the whole Blacks. I've said it a few times. I think
34:00
the French is probably the team to be at the next World Cup. I think with the
34:06
to lose players and the Bordeaux players mostly not coming over, there's a big gap between
34:13
the next players. We've seen it at club level as well. Those two sides dominate completely.
34:20
But with the French, you never know. They might just get that one game with their
34:24
upper it, with their play wall. There's a lot of quality in France. I've got a lot of players
34:30
thinking that guys have played for La Rochelle. That's one kind of a cup trophy. So,
34:38
I think maybe there's one or two games that might be more competitive than what the New Zealanders
34:45
think. I reckon for me, the biggest thing for the all Blacks that I'm excited about seeing is
34:51
the loose forward trio. We've been talking, well, we've been talking since Arty was like three
34:57
years old, whether he should be a seven or eight. With Sam Kane leaving Luke Jacobson,
35:04
I thought he's had an amazing season out. They've been talking about him playing seven.
35:10
But it looks like that's not going to happen. It looks like they'll leave him at eight.
35:15
And they might put Cariffian. The other really interesting thing is whether they're going to put
35:24
Rico Uone on the wing and play Proctorate Centre. I think there are two really interesting
35:30
selection policies. You probably have to because if you're saying, if you're saying to Rico
35:39
Uone, look, you're a number one centre, but we need some options against a week in French side
35:44
as the best time to do it. Because at the end of the day, when you've only picked two specialist
35:50
wingers, then at some stage you've got to go, okay, who is my third and my fourth winger? So,
35:56
I think those two selection pieces are the big ones for Razer this week. And I'm excited about
36:03
a couple of the new guys getting a bit of a run and see if they're up to it.
36:07
Who's then now on 10th, JK? So Richie's doing his thing. Is he still in Japan? Is he out?
36:17
The rumor is Jim that he's going to stay. I just think he's earning way too much money
36:24
and he's winning and I think if he tried to leave, they probably throw more money in. I think
36:29
it's Bowdoin Barrett, mate. You know, I'm a big fan of them both. They're such completely
36:35
different players. I think what I see in Bowdoin is just a little bit more composure when the team
36:45
is not dominating. I see him a little bit more in the pocket, a little bit better at the kicking
36:50
game at the moment. So, I mean, I love Damien's ability to crack open defences. I like him at 10.
37:00
I don't like when you try and make him conform into a system. I like when he's free running. But
37:06
when you're free running at a 10, you need the big buffets to get us over the bonus line so we can
37:12
look good. If that doesn't happen and it's not happening a lot in international rugby, rightly
37:18
so because the defences are so good, then you need a pocket 10 that's going to kick. So, I think
37:23
they'll go with Bowdoin unless they go, this is a good time for us just to keep Damien in there.
37:33
I can't see a third. Peter Fett is always injured, so that's a scary thing for New Zealand since
37:39
the World Cup in 2011 when we lost all our tens and now you carry three. I can't see a real third
37:49
standing up. That's the issue for me. So, I think Barrett first, Damien coming on and possibly
37:56
them just swapping positions. Barrett will Jordan to the wing, Damien McKenzie the first five,
38:02
which comes back to that hybrid. Jim, you've watched a lot more French rugby. What do you think
38:09
of the team that they brought down in? I haven't seen a huge amount. I've seen some of the big
38:13
games this year and been watching the Champions Cup, so I've watched Bordeaux's run in to win in
38:19
the final and then I watched the game at the weekend. I've seen bits of too long. I've got a few
38:23
mates playing there as well. I mean, the French has stacked with absolute quality in the top 14 now.
38:28
The picture knows you've played in the league as well. I mean, it's probably has a similar
38:34
feel to it. It can be quite slow and quite physical and it's weak on week. There's a lot of games to
38:39
get through, but when the quality steps up in some of them matches, it's unbelievable. Like in the
38:44
Champions Cup, some of the performances we've seen have been incredible. I'm kind of split on
38:51
this because I've always seen test matches, especially between France and the all-black as being
38:56
that the best and the best like absolute premium. You want to see the best goal against the best.
39:00
It's such a tough place to go. Vice versa, you saw in, we called it the automation series where
39:06
the all-blacks came up in November playing against the very best French team and we saw that
39:11
the iconic hacker and the lights in Paris going down and the spotlight and it's just brilliant.
39:17
Just everything around the theatre of that helps. I'm going to say that the phrase
39:21
grow the game and these things. To see a French team when they are littered with some of the very
39:26
best players in the world, even with the light of the pomp being injured, going to New Zealand
39:32
who are hungry for it, right? To play against this French team because they've got history,
39:37
haven't they? Over the last two years, I'm slightly disappointed, but it's another thing that
39:41
World Rugby needs to work on. The calendar is so congested at the minute that players need a
39:47
rest right. You can't come off the back of playing 30-odd games then into a fly and then into a test
39:52
series and then back without a decent preseason, so they've got a bit of work to do with that.
39:58
Yeah, two iconic teams, the French of brilliant, the top 14 is absolutely flying in terms of
40:05
interest in the country. As people know, I'm a massive fan of the All Blacks as well and
40:12
to see what quality they've got coming through because the thing is with the All Blacks as well
40:16
is you're always thinking about the 10 and the 7 and the lights of Arlie Savaire or whatever. I'd
40:21
be interested to see what second rows come through because any New Zealand team that I've seen
40:25
or any World Cup winning or World Class identity has been based in around the second rows. I go,
40:32
I think for me, when I go through my career, thinking like the Chris Jack sticks out for example
40:37
and then you carry on with the lights of Ali Williams and Sam Whitelock and Brodie Ritalic.
40:43
I'm looking at this kind of All Blacks team as well when you're talking about the lights of
40:48
Bowdoin Barrett and McKenzie and Rico Uani, unbelievable talent. I do wonder who's coming
40:55
through in the second row there, so I'll be watching it and yeah, as I say, German Victor,
41:00
you're going to love Fabian Holland, both are going to love him, just a big man.
41:06
But do you think you will play him a hit of Faye and Barrett?
41:12
But you guys are just going to love him. I think he's who reminds me of a little bit of an old
41:18
school play. He's a big body, goes hard, just works hard, nothing flash and I think it's what we
41:24
need Jim. I think it's what we need in the second row. One thing that the South Africans don't
41:31
have to worry about is massive men like Victor coming through and like you Jim. But it's an
41:36
issue for us, a big men, they're going to basket or we don't have those real big bodies.
41:43
So Fabian Holland, your love, good young kid, he's only 22. Might take him a little while,
41:49
Victor, you know, to get into the test arena, but he reminds me of a young Brodie Ritalic. I'm
41:56
pretty excited about him and if there's a weakness in New Zealand Rugby, it's those big men
42:03
coming through. So hopefully he gets a bit of a game, Victor, and you guys can look at him.
42:09
And will it be an option for them to move Barrett back to 16? I'm not really.
42:16
I mean, I don't know. This is me and I'm a bit old school, you know? I like a hard working
42:22
lock and a tall lock. I like a dancing centre and a penetrating centre. We've seen that change
42:30
the wee bit. So I like Barrett in that role, in that shorter lock role, that hard working role.
42:38
I also like a loose forward that's got a bit of a step and a bit of pace, you know, for
42:42
Zal, those types of players. So I think when you're looking for balance, I don't think they'll move
42:50
Scott Barrett, I think he's kept and I think they'll keep him there and then they'll have
42:53
you know to play and hopefully Fabian, Fabian Holland coming through would be my guess.
43:00
Just to sum up, gentlemen, there is some talk around, you know, in the Super rugby competition,
43:05
the TMOs took a bit of a back seat and let the referees run the game. Apparently that that's
43:11
going to change in the international season, the TMOs are going to have a bit more to say.
43:16
What are your thoughts about that? As long as they make the decisions quick, I think,
43:22
we don't want to have stoppage every after every facet of games, let's stop, let's have a look.
43:29
If they like in the year and they see something happen, call it and let's go on.
43:34
And then, I mean, you know, Jake and myself's view on yellow and red cards, I mean,
43:40
this week with Eddie, I said, listen, you have to have at least 20% of your training session
43:48
looking at how do we think, do things when you get a yellow card because it's going to happen
43:53
in a game these days. You always, at some stage, play with 14 men and still a pity. So
44:00
hopefully we won't see more cards, but if they can help with quicker decisions, that will be great.
44:06
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, we need to look at the yellow card, we need to have reports.
44:14
So if a TMO can look at the game and he sees an incident that should be put on report, then
44:21
he should just say to the referee, the referee stopped quickly, he's already got the video footage
44:25
ready and he shows them, you know, even if it's after a couple of minutes, the right thing for
44:30
the game, then that's fine. What we're getting now is all these stoppages and every single game has
44:34
a yellow card. So 15 against 15 is now a thing of the past and there's that how we want our game.
44:40
What the answer is, I think the answer is put guys on report. TMOs are like referees, you know,
44:48
we have now this safety conduct interpretation and every TMO is different on what they'll interpret.
44:56
So I think we've got a bit of work to do there. Yeah, I agree with that and there's been some
45:01
frustrations in not as frustrating as it was a couple of years ago. They seem to be more lenient,
45:07
but there's definitely in the big games, you know, there's going to be a yellow card and you
45:11
just kind of hoping that it isn't going to be a red card. I'm all for a red card if it's a dog shot
45:17
or if it's a punch or if a stamp or a gouge, but some of these, a lot of the mass objective and
45:22
I think even still if you hear the commentators or the people doing the podcast or you go online
45:28
and have a look, people are still split on their opinion on what is a yellow card and what is a
45:33
red card. So it's still a little bit of a mind-bill and I just thought we'd be at the point now
45:38
of understanding. You know, I do like certain aspects of the TMO. I think it builds a little bit of
45:44
jeopardy in the stadium especially when it comes to coming out across the announcement and stuff
45:50
like that. It does build a little bit of hysteria in the stadium, but again, it's kind of a mix
45:55
and matches it. Some games have it, some games don't. It's some games are stopping constantly.
46:00
Some TMOs want to be involved a lot more. I just think we need some clear kind of guidelines
46:06
about how it's all going to work. Right, and just one last question I told you, Jim, that we'd
46:11
need you for about 10 minutes or about an hour and a half. No, I'm good. There was some talk about
46:16
the Golden Point system in the Lion series that if it came down to look at the New Zealand a
46:21
few years ago, everything was all square. They play up for a Golden Point. So it sounds like the
46:27
Lions aren't so keen on it. What are your thoughts? Jack, you're shaking. You're an old school
46:32
traditionalist. I think for a competition that you play all year like your super rugby or like
46:39
your championship, yeah, sure, I get it. You need to have a winner. But the Lions is a special
46:44
tournament. It's a special team. It's a special environment. And if the series should be drawn
46:50
because it's drawn, so be it. It's a fear result. The result against New Zealand,
46:57
drawn series. Was I disappointed? Did I think the ref get it wrong from the kickoff? Yeah. But
47:03
did it deserve to be a draw? Yeah. So yeah, I was in New Zealand and I remember it was unbelievable.
47:11
What a series it was down there. And obviously the one in 2021 was COVID, so no one got to see it.
47:17
And we lost a bit of momentum around the Lions. So it's great that we're back and
47:22
they're going down to Australia. But being in New Zealand for that test, the final test as well
47:27
specifically in the draw, I was a little bit like, it would have been nice to just come away with
47:35
having a winner. But again, with JK, there's a part of me which is a traditionalist which I like.
47:41
That part of it still exists. And the Lions made the decision that they didn't want to go to a
47:45
golden point. But again, like commercially and for the real jeopardy, there's a part of me that
47:50
wants to see a winner come out of this series in Australia. And I think it's going to be a lot
47:55
tighter than people think. I think a year ago or 18 months, definitely, there were thought it's
48:00
going to be a three-nil series win for the Lions because Australia is so poor. I think Australia
48:05
have closed that gap physically with some of the athletes that they've got. I think we've seen
48:10
that the Lions are going to not struggle, but there's got a few question marks over some of the
48:14
combinations. I wouldn't want to see a draw. I want to see a winner. I think we will anyway. I don't
48:18
think it'll be like the old Blacks one, but who knows? Now, I wouldn't like to see a change.
48:27
If they had draws in the past, I'm a still have draws. So yeah, I'm with JK on this one where,
48:34
look, I left in the URC the kickoff. There was so many emotion about it and it's actually like
48:41
a gym set. I think commercially, it actually brought something to the table, but in the Lions
48:47
series, it's like, you know, in the old age, you could have had a draw. There was two games for one
48:53
one was a draw, so I don't think we can change that. Right. Well, when you start the
48:57
green with JK, Victor, it's time to finish the show. So that's the end of the rivals. Yeah, I think it's
49:03
going to be a success. Yeah, let's go.