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83. Family Constellations, Shamanic Healing & Indigenous Wisdom with Robyn Fergus · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with my friend and colleague, Robyn Fergus.
• 0:42
  Tracy: Hey, Robyn.
• 0:43
  Tracy: How are you doing?
• 0:44
  Robyn: I'm doing good.
• 0:44
  Robyn: Thanks, Tracy.
• 0:46
  Tracy: Great.
• 0:46
  Tracy: So my invitation to you is to share a little bit about you, maybe where you've, where you are, whatever's there for you.
• 0:53
  Tracy: What… Just so that the listeners and the viewers can have a little bit more understanding of you.
• 0:59
  Robyn: Okay.
• 0:59
  Robyn: So right now I am three hours outside of Cape Town in a place called Clanwilliam on a dam, which you can't really see in the through my window.
• 1:09
  Robyn: And I live between here and Hout Bay in the home that I grew up in.
• 1:15
  Robyn: Um, I opened my healing practice in 2010.
• 1:20
  Robyn: I'd been in the corporate world up until then, and something shifted, and it was time for a change, but not knowing what the change was.
• 1:27
  Robyn: Yeah, so it started as a healing practice, and then I met constellations along the way.
• 1:33
  Robyn: I'm also a shamanic practitioner.
• 1:35
  Robyn: Mm-hmm.
• 1:35
  Robyn: I am initiated in the Sacred Andean tradition and in the Digara as a stick diviner.
• 1:42
  Robyn: Digara work from West Africa with Malidoma Somé as my teacher's teacher.
• 1:47
  Robyn: Yeah, that is basically what I come into this space with.
• 1:52
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 1:53
  Tracy: Oh, there's so much good, uh, things that I wanna ask you about all of that, all of that.
• 1:58
  Tracy: F- but I'll start with, tell me, how did you, um, how did constellations find you?
• 2:04
  Robyn: I almost want to say my ancestors found me first.
• 2:07
  Robyn: Um, growing up in South Africa, um, my dad… I grew up, lived… As I mentioned, I'm in Cape Town, but my parents separated, so my father was up in, um, in Durban, up in KwaZulu, and he had a person, Cornelius, working for him.
• 2:21
  Robyn: And, um, Cornelius always spoke about his ancestors as he ironed in the kitchen.
• 2:27
  Robyn: I have very clear memories of this.
• 2:28
  Robyn: But it never really s- I never really understood what he was speaking about, and growing up- Hmm … in apartheid South Africa where I didn't have parents who were super activists, but it kind of like was not something we were engaged in.
• 2:42
  Robyn: When I left the corporate world, I knew I had to keep my mind busy, and I loved the bush, so I studied field guiding.
• 2:50
  Robyn: And I was out and a guide was speaking about a tree called the Ziziphus mucronata, a buffalo thorn tree.
• 2:57
  Robyn: And he spoke about how when somebody died, not at home, perhaps in a car accident, they would take a branch from this tree and they would go and fetch the spirit of the person who had, had died so that they would be with their ancestors at the homestead.
• 3:13
  Robyn: Travel to the place, collect up the spirit in the, um, in the hooks so it's got a, a, a thorn that's quite hooked and then it's got another one that's straight, which also has another meaning.
• 3:25
  Robyn: But they'd hook back the spirit, and if they were traveling in public transport, they would buy two seats, one for themselves and one for the spirit of this, for the branch that is traveling with them.
• 3:35
  Robyn: And all the way home they speak, "We're now crossing this river," and, "We're now going through this place," and we're doing that, never looking back, but just telling them, "This is where we're going." Yeah.
• 3:45
  Robyn: And they would take the spirit back so that they would be with the ancestors.
• 3:49
  Robyn: If the person was a cow- worked with cows, they would always put a branch in the kraal, that's the, the space where the, the animals are kept, so that they could eat the, the branch of the tree, and by doing that would know that they, that this person had passed.
• 4:06
  Robyn: Okay.
• 4:06
  Robyn: So there was this deep reverence for the spirit and what was happening, and that made me realize that there's a whole lot of information and there's a whole lot of knowing that, that is carried by the indigenous people that I don't know anything about.
• 4:21
  Robyn: Mm. Mm. So that sort of, like, started my picking my ears up to ancestors.
• 4:25
  Robyn: That stage I didn't even know I was gonna do healing work.
• 4:28
  Robyn: And then, um, first met them with shamanic drumming with North American, and then one day I was at a place called Pakalani, which is a, a place in Hartbee, ritual place.
• 4:41
  Robyn: And someone was doing a constellation there, Neil Campbell, and I… It was like, "Yeah, I've gotta do this." I didn't know anything about it Mm-hmm … other than I have to do it.
• 4:50
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 4:50
  Robyn: And I had a constellation with… And then another one which was about my asthma, which I got when I started he- when I start opened my healing practice, and it just, like, was a wire cage removed from my chest.
• 5:04
  Robyn: Wow.
• 5:04
  Robyn: And it was like, "I've gotta do this." Yeah.
• 5:06
  Robyn: "To… I have to do it." It was guilt.
• 5:08
  Robyn: I was caring for my mum, and, um, she passed, and the guilt got stronger, 'cause there wasn't her to carry it as well.
• 5:16
  Robyn: And that's sort of, like, how it found me.
• 5:17
  Robyn: It just like, "This is what you have to do." It's like… And the trainer arrived, and I did it.
• 5:23
  Tracy: So.
• 5:24
  Tracy: Mm. Wow, that's beautiful.
• 5:26
  Tracy: I love how… I love asking that question because, I mean, ob- obviously we're all unique individuals, but the, the way it finds us and the way our ancestors nudge us to the work and-
• 5:37
  Robyn: Mm. Yeah… Tracy: but I like to ask that question,'Cause a, a lot of people that is for them is, is like, yeah, it found me when I needed it, or it was… Beautiful.
• 5:47
  Robyn: So tell me, you were talking about… So you're… Are you talking about like- Mm … with divining rods?
• 5:51
  Robyn: Is that what you mean?
• 5:53
  Robyn: Um, no, not with divining … It, it's called, um… So the, the, the first initiation, um, d- um, divination that I learned was stick divination, which is you have, um, pieces and the s- the, the stick kind of talks as to where it goes.
• 6:08
  Robyn: So together with a client we'll gently hold the stick, and the stick will go to where it needs to.
• 6:13
  Robyn: But the important thing I think there is it's before we start the divination, there's certain protocols that are followed, and there is a very strong invocation of calling in the ancestors.
• 6:26
  Robyn: Mm. Calling in the elementals.
• 6:27
  Robyn: And the client comes, I don't know what they're bringing.
• 6:31
  Robyn: So unlike a constellation where you know what you're working with, here I don't know what's, what the client brings.
• 6:38
  Robyn: So it's calling on the client's ancestors.
• 6:42
  Robyn: Together working with mine, the messages will come through.
• 6:46
  Tracy: Do you combine that with constellations?
• 6:49
  Tracy: Is that-
• 6:50
  Robyn: No… Tracy: or is that something Uh, const- divination is a very Um, I want to say it's, it's very held.
• 6:57
  Robyn: It's, it's- Yeah … um, there's a certain protocol that you follow, that you do it.
• 7:03
  Robyn: So I think that how it's in- influenced my d- um, constellations is the deeper relationship that I have with my ancestors, of a deep reverence f- and respect for my ancestors and, and also the client's ancestors.
• 7:19
  Robyn: And I kind of feel like if I think about what's the difference, because when I, I then at a later stage learned cowrie shell divinations, and I invited a peer group that I was online with us to bring things to see it- Hold on.
• 7:34
  Robyn: Can … and I was very curious.
• 7:35
  Tracy: What, what is it?
• 7:36
  Tracy: What sort of shells?
• 7:38
  Robyn: Cowrie shell.
• 7:39
  Robyn: Cowrie shell.
• 7:40
  Tracy: What are
• 7:40
  Robyn: they?
• 7:40
  Robyn: Cowrie shell divinations.
• 7:41
  Robyn: You know cowrie shells that you get anywhere?
• 7:44
  Robyn: Where?
• 7:44
  Robyn: They're shells- At the beach … which in… From a beach, yeah.
• 7:48
  Robyn: So in, in Africa, cowrie shells were used as money m- centuries ago.
• 7:54
  Tracy: Oh, okay.
• 7:55
  Tracy: Yep.
• 7:55
  Robyn: And they still are used for divination in different ways in different parts of, um, more I'd say West Africa than, than down here Um, and they are put onto a wheel.
• 8:09
  Robyn: And so it's a very visual kind of divination.
• 8:13
  Robyn: It was developed by Malidoma Somé really for the West, um, because we like to see things
• 8:20
  Tracy: Mm.
• 8:21
  Robyn: And, um, it's five elements that they use in their cosmology of fire, water, earth, mineral, and nature.
• 8:30
  Robyn: So it's, it's… I think it's the only, um, cosmology that has nature separate from earth.
• 8:35
  Robyn: Um, and the shells and other elements that represent different things are spread by the client, and then you look at that and read that.
• 8:45
  Robyn: So that I did a lot of experimenting, kind of asking, saying like, "What would it be like if you brought an issue to a constellation or you brought it to a divination?" To try and get my head, 'cause I was a bit heady at that stage around the difference.
• 9:00
  Robyn: Um, and it's something that I keep thinking about, what, what is the difference?
• 9:04
  Robyn: But I think it's when you need guidance from the other world, whereas a constellation is more like where we've got entanglements.
• 9:13
  Robyn: Mm-hmm.
• 9:13
  Robyn: It might come up as an entanglement in a divination where you hold it carrying something that you need to release, but it's a different… You're looking at it with a different lens, I think is the best way I could explain the difference.
• 9:28
  Robyn: Um, Malidoma speaks about how we've got bodies and our ancestors don't, so they might ask us to do things on their behalf, make… do a ritual or an offering on their behalf.
• 9:38
  Robyn: Mm. Where that you might, in a divination, a ritual might come up as part of the divination, but it's not… You'll… You're not going in with looking for a ritual for… as a prescription to bring healing, which that might happen in a divination.
• 9:53
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:54
  Tracy: Okay.
• 9:55
  Tracy: It's fascinating.
• 9:56
  Tracy: Now, you're a trainer as well, aren't you?
• 9:59
  Tracy: A family constellation trainer?
• 10:01
  Robyn: No, I don't train.
• 10:02
  Robyn: I… When I, I, I do do other training, so to speak, but I don't do constellations.
• 10:08
  Robyn: Um, but I do explain a lot when I have a workshop.
• 10:11
  Tracy: So you kind of are training in a way- No, kind of- … but not officially.
• 10:14
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 10:15
  Robyn: But
• 10:15
  Tracy: you-
• 10:15
  Robyn: No, no,
• 10:15
  Tracy: no … we, we were speaking earlier about, um, drums, 'cause I know that you, you do a bit of that.
• 10:22
  Tracy: You bit of- do a bit of drumming and-
• 10:23
  Robyn: Mm… Tracy: but does that come into your work?
• 10:26
  Robyn: How does that come in?
• 10:26
  Robyn: Into the constellation work?
• 10:27
  Robyn: It can.
• 10:28
  Tracy: Mm.
• 10:28
  Robyn: It can.
• 10:29
  Robyn: It, it really depends upon what's showing up.
• 10:32
  Robyn: So if I am doing a one-on-one constellation, it, it has happened that in the middle of the thing, it's like, this needs to be a soul retrieval here.
• 10:42
  Robyn: So yes, and I need to go and fetch this part, and I will do a soul retrieval in the middle of the constellation because that is what is called for.
• 10:51
  Robyn: It's not something that I have done in a group constellation.
• 10:55
  Robyn: In a group constellation, I have used the drum where it's like there's this kind of spell or heavy energy that needs to shift- Mm … and there needs that vibration of movement that needs to happen.
• 11:09
  Robyn: The drum can come in like that.
• 11:11
  Robyn: It was part of, I think I've, I've heard on one of your podcasts that where you build a drum in your training.
• 11:17
  Robyn: It was part of my first training that I did, um, with Braz- two Brazilian teachers, um, Gilherme Barcelos and Claudia Vigo.
• 11:26
  Robyn: And we did, it was shamanic constellations, and we built the drums which took us until midnight one day to make these drums.
• 11:33
  Robyn: Oh, wow.
• 11:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:35
  Robyn: That we did.
• 11:36
  Robyn: Yeah
• 11:37
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah, I find w- when I'm doing it in my training, for me it's, it's the resource, but it's also giving me, um… there's so much in it when I'm witnessing and supporting someone birthing a drum.
• 11:50
  Tracy: It's telling me so much more about what this person needs going forward, and I didn't lear- I didn't know that until… I'd already been birthing drums for a really long time, but it wasn't until, um, my first group of trainees in f- in constellations, and we, we made- Mm a drum halfway through, and then I realized, oh, I could see what was coming up for them while they made a drum was exactly what had been showing up in the field for them.
• 12:16
  Tracy: Okay.
• 12:16
  Tracy: So it was like, ah, okay, so there's, there's, there's this correlation.
• 12:20
  Tracy: And so there was, you know, for example, there was someone who chose a really, really thick hide, and, and it was- Yeah it was so, it was such hard work, and she just ke- Mm … and, you know, there was great big pauses in between.
• 12:34
  Tracy: She didn't know if she could do it, and, and that was showing up for her.
• 12:37
  Tracy: There was another one who just found the whole thing so overwhelming.
• 12:41
  Tracy: That was showing up for this person.
• 12:43
  Tracy: Another one who, um, who just want- who did it, and it was finished, like, hours before everyone else 'cause it, it was so quick.
• 12:51
  Tracy: And that's how she was showing up as well.
• 12:52
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Tracy: So I was like, ah, there's so much more to it than this.
• 12:57
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 12:58
  Tracy: Even though I'd been making them for a coup- a few years at that stage.
• 13:01
  Tracy: Right.
• 13:02
  Tracy: So now I do it at, on the first weekend.
• 13:05
  Robyn: Ah, wow.
• 13:06
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah, I- And then I, and then I can see the resources that are needed.
• 13:09
  Robyn: Yeah, okay.
• 13:10
  Robyn: Mm. Yeah, ours was done as part of the healing, um, module that we did.
• 13:15
  Robyn: Wow, okay.
• 13:15
  Robyn: So we also did healing with the drums, and in the previous work that I'd done with North American drumming, on drum journeys there, we'd done a lot of healing.
• 13:24
  Robyn: So when I made this drum, 'cause it was the f- it, it was the first one I made, it was really putting all of those intentions for me into it- Mm that this is going to be a drum that is going to be used for healing, and it has the most incredible vibration.
• 13:38
  Robyn: It feels like it makes the windows even vibrate.
• 13:41
  Tracy: Wow.
• 13:42
  Robyn: Um, so sometimes in a, in a, in a constellation circle I will, in between constellations, like, everybody let's lie on the floor, and then let's just drum.
• 13:51
  Robyn: Mm. And I'm not doing a, a, a steady beat.
• 13:54
  Robyn: I'm doing the beat that changes as I move over the peop- person's body as to-
• 13:59
  Tracy: Yeah… Robyn: well, this one needs more, this that's stuck over here, so we're going to Move that, move that energy.
• 14:08
  Tracy: So for me, there's so much healing that happens in the unseen and the unspoken, and that's what the drum does.
• 14:14
  Tracy: Is it- It's speaking, but not in the language that we can interrogate mentally.
• 14:22
  Tracy: It's- Mm … at a different level.
• 14:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:26
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 14:26
  Tracy: I, I, you know, it's been a journey with the drum, that's for sure.
• 14:30
  Tracy: So you've got more than one drum?
• 14:32
  Robyn: I do.
• 14:33
  Robyn: I have the one that I, I, I had that took me all the way through, um, the drumming journey, and then this one that I made.
• 14:40
  Robyn: And then when I was in Peru, it was in 2024 when I was there for an initiation, I went down to a market and I saw this drum which has a snake in it with a head on one end and then unraveling on the other side, and was, "Okay, right, this drum has to come home with me." So, um, and that one is interesting.
• 15:02
  Robyn: That one is more of my drum.
• 15:03
  Robyn: It's what- Mm … I work with myself.
• 15:07
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 15:07
  Robyn: When I want to drum for myself, that's my drum.
• 15:11
  Tracy: Beautiful, beautiful these different tools that we have, different things.
• 15:15
  Tracy: Yes.
• 15:16
  Tracy: Is constellations… I mean, uh, I know that the work that has come through Bert Hellinger, but in South Africa itself, how well known is constellations?
• 15:26
  Robyn: I would say that it's, it's fairly well known.
• 15:29
  Robyn: Um, there are quite a few people that are training.
• 15:32
  Robyn: There's Tanja Myburgh, which I think a lot of people have heard about.
• 15:36
  Robyn: Um, Bubbles, who you had on with, uh- Mm-hmm … which, uh, she was the first person who brought it into South Africa.
• 15:42
  Robyn: And, um, and from there it's, it's grown.
• 15:45
  Robyn: So there is an association, um, in South Africa, SCASA, and there are a lot of… It's not a huge community.
• 15:54
  Robyn: There are… I think there are more people that are outside of that.
• 15:57
  Robyn: There are some… But if you say family constellations, most people do know about it.
• 16:02
  Robyn: Um, when… And, and there again, my husband will always say, "But Robin, remember you are moving in that circle of people where they do know about these other kind of things." It is used in organizations.
• 16:13
  Robyn: There are some people that are doing, um, organizational constellations as well.
• 16:17
  Robyn: So yeah, it is, it is something that people are aware.
• 16:21
  Robyn: In various circles it's taken to, um, retreat yourself, which is, uh, where people go off and they'll spend, uh, several days doing yoga and whatever else, and- Mm-hmm there's constellations as well.
• 16:32
  Robyn: So-
• 16:33
  Tracy: Yeah… Robyn: it is, it is something that one-on-one and in, and in groups.
• 16:39
  Tracy: Okay.
• 16:40
  Tracy: What's SCASA, for those who don't know?
• 16:43
  Robyn: It's the Systems Constellation Association of Southern Africa.
• 16:48
  Robyn: Okay.
• 16:48
  Robyn: Systemic Constellation Association of South Africa.
• 16:51
  Tracy: And you're quite involved in that, are you?
• 16:54
  Robyn: I, I'm, I would say I'm in the point of view of, um, the social media person- … and I do attend their meet- their meetings and yeah.
• 17:02
  Robyn: So there is, there is a group of us and, and when we have sessions we open it to everybody who's interested in constellations to come and join.
• 17:11
  Robyn: So we'll have- sessions where we kind of ask ourselves questions about constellations in South Africa and acknowledge where it's come from, that this, um, where Bert Hellinger spent all these years.
• 17:24
  Robyn: And how do we move it from a place of just being White people who are doing it, where it's… it, it is opening up and there are… I think it's growing amongst wider community.
• 17:37
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:37
  Tracy: It's getting there.
• 17:38
  Tracy: It's, it's beginning to in, in here in Aotearoa as well.
• 17:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:41
  Tracy: More and more, more and more people are training in the work, which is fantastic, and getting it out to wider communities.
• 17:47
  Tracy: And I think about… This is how I describe that, you know, Bert Hellinger brought through, if you take… if you think about the different things that he did, and it's kind of like it came together like a download of, of, of meshing together a whole lot of things that are actually things that all of us, our people of the fire, it would've been a natural thing for them to do.
• 18:12
  Robyn: Exactly.
• 18:13
  Tracy: But we've forgotten it.
• 18:14
  Tracy: Yes.
• 18:14
  Tracy: It's been… We've been Westernized, colonized, brainwashed, whatever, and, um, unlike many indigenous communities that still have that connection, so
• 18:26
  Robyn: yeah.
• 18:26
  Robyn: Absolutely.
• 18:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:27
  Tracy: Grateful for the memories to be able to bring that through in this day and age where we can understand it in a more of a modern sense-
• 18:35
  Robyn: Yeah
• 18:36
  Tracy: psychology and everything as well.
• 18:38
  Tracy: Yeah Waiting for the field to give me some more questions to ask you, unless there's anything in particular that you'd like to talk about
• 18:46
  Robyn: I think constellation exercises is something that I've always been fascinated with, and the power of them.
• 18:51
  Robyn: The power of looking at something in a contained way.
• 18:56
  Robyn: So whenever I have a constellation circle, I always have a theme, and then offer constellation exercises related to that theme.
• 19:06
  Robyn: And I must admit, I then sit down and once I've, the people have all signed up and I'll say, "Okay, right, based upon who's here," I go and stand down at beside my river and say,"Well, what, what do I need to do?" Kind of open it up to the field to say- Yeah … "What, what is needed? How does the structure look like?" And so just I feel like I should take a few steps back.
• 19:25
  Robyn: When I did my, um, training, the shamanic constellations, the one teacher I had trai- trained with, uh, is the name Brigitte De Champlieu De Ribes- Mm-hmm or something like that.
• 19:36
  Robyn: She's a Spanish facilitator, trainer.
• 19:39
  Robyn: Yeah And she offers all these constellation exercises, so we did quite a lot of them during our training.
• 19:46
  Robyn: And when we finished our training, we would do them when we didn't have to constellate any… We didn't have a topic to constellate with each other, we would do them and it would develop into a constellation.
• 19:55
  Robyn: So I kind of had quite a, a grounding in them.
• 19:59
  Robyn: So I will then work with that coming into the constellation circle, and some of them could be I might start something on a group level of resourcing if it was a, a heavy topic that we were doing.
• 20:14
  Robyn: I was thinking… A- and then it will unfold, um, the day before as to what the actual constellation is that the constellation exercise in groups of two or three they'll do.
• 20:24
  Robyn: And I wish I wrote them down because I don't, and then they're just on a piece of paper.
• 20:29
  Robyn: And then, and then they kind of leave me a little bit like a constellation.
• 20:33
  Robyn: I can't think of them- Mm … but I do know the last… It wasn't the last one, it was the previous constellation circle, it was about permission to slow down.
• 20:43
  Robyn: That was the theme.
• 20:45
  Robyn: And we kind of asked the question, what, why do you just need to keep being busy?
• 20:50
  Robyn: What is it that you need to slow down with?
• 20:53
  Robyn: And it was amazing as to watching the people before they go off and when they come back, what has shifted in them.
• 21:00
  Robyn: And I've found that seven minutes is like the magic timing for these exercises.
• 21:05
  Tracy: Seven minutes per person?
• 21:06
  Robyn: Seven minutes per person.
• 21:08
  Robyn: For some reason that's, that's the magic number.
• 21:10
  Robyn: It seems to finish within that time period, and then they'll speak to each other.
• 21:15
  Robyn: And then what I do is I allow for sometimes that is not enough, or it's opened up a doorway to explore more for someone.
• 21:23
  Tracy: Yeah
• 21:23
  Robyn: And then we'll do a group constellation for them.
• 21:26
  Robyn: With, with a client who I'd done work with before- And she did the exercise and she came back with this little gem and I said, "Okay, right. We'll work with that." And at the end of the constellation she was lying down, everybody was lying down 'cause they could relax.
• 21:42
  Robyn: Wow.
• 21:42
  Robyn: It wasn't lying down like we're dead as you might find in a c- It was this, ah, we can relax.
• 21:48
  Robyn: And even the witnesses were all like… Everyone could just Breathe out.
• 21:54
  Robyn: Mm. And, and the starting point was the little exercise.
• 21:59
  Robyn: Beautiful.
• 21:59
  Robyn: So they might be short and sweet, but they're very, very potent.
• 22:03
  Robyn: So- And sometimes people will come in thinking I need more work, but they don't.
• 22:06
  Robyn: They all, they just needed that.
• 22:08
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:09
  Tracy: Sometimes you get… I reckon sometimes you get so much more from those little exercises.
• 22:14
  Tracy: I was gonna say, do you, um, d- do the exercises come to you, or these are ones that you have a… ones that you've heard of already or, or ones that just sort of pop in?
• 22:24
  Tracy: If you're like me, they just pop in- It's ones that come and it's like, yeah, I'm like, wow.
• 22:27
  Tracy: Mm. Okay, we could do that exercise.
• 22:30
  Tracy: I was thinking the other day, gosh, I should write all these down.
• 22:33
  Tracy: I'm gonna write a book.
• 22:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:35
  Tracy: All these different exercises.
• 22:36
  Robyn: Exactly.
• 22:37
  Tracy: And then, 'cause I was having this, a morning of amazing exercises coming into my awareness, and if I don't write them down, they're gone, and I'm like, oh, okay.
• 22:47
  Robyn: Exactly.
• 22:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:49
  Tracy: But I do have the ability to get- And I wo-
• 22:51
  Robyn: mm, and I wonder if that's because it's, it's pertinent to the people that are there.
• 22:56
  Tracy: Mm.
• 22:56
  Robyn: There are some very potent ones, and I think they can be applied, but I think also the potency is is because the field is saying, "This is what this group of people need right now.
• 23:06
  Robyn: That's why you choosing this or that," so that they don't just become formulaic in that, oh, well, there's always this and there's always that.
• 23:14
  Robyn: It c- it can be anything.
• 23:15
  Tracy: Mm. And that's l- that's like, um, Bert Hellinger saying that about the healing sentences, right?
• 23:23
  Tracy: So there are… Sometimes there's formulations put together and… Well, it's one thing my students always ask, "What are the healing sentences?" And you can start them off, but it, everybody's individual, so th- everybody's sentences are gonna be slightly different.
• 23:35
  Tracy: And he would say, there are… Hellinger I think I he- I think, don't, don't quote me on this, but this is how I've understood it.
• 23:42
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 23:42
  Tracy: Is that he said, "There are no healing sentences. It's only what's right for the person at the time." Mm. Something along those lines.
• 23:49
  Tracy: You know?
• 23:49
  Tracy: Like, um, there are sentences that are healing, absolutely, but in the formulation, it's for each individual person.
• 23:58
  Tracy: So rather than having a list of them.
• 24:01
  Tracy: Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.
• 24:03
  Tracy: Um, yeah, it's what's there in that moment for that person, like you're saying about the exercises as well.
• 24:09
  Robyn: Yeah, I think there are.
• 24:10
  Robyn: There's certain ones… There's some ones like, "I'm big and you're small," or you've… that, that are there to put something back into order where you can see that a particular order of love is, is, is, has been disregarded or has been forgotten for whatever reason.
• 24:27
  Robyn: But yeah, a lot of them are just about stating, let's, let's acknowledge what is.
• 24:32
  Robyn: Hmm.
• 24:33
  Tracy: So if you're doing I'm big and you're small, or you're big and I'm small, how would you have three people in that or just two?
• 24:40
  Robyn: Oh, it could be in the constellation because it's like where, it's like when somebody's standing and they feel so big.
• 24:46
  Robyn: They're so much bigger than their parents, and it's like reminding themselves that I'm, I'm smaller.
• 24:52
  Robyn: You came before me I'm smaller.
• 24:56
  Robyn: I might be an adult now, and some people you might need to add that in, that even though you're an adult, you're still small, and my parents are big.
• 25:04
  Robyn: Mm. Yeah.
• 25:05
  Tracy: Or he's
• 25:05
  Robyn: not big.
• 25:05
  Robyn: And it's giving back that place.
• 25:08
  Robyn: It's that, for me, that's the kind of thing that came from the Zulu people.
• 25:12
  Robyn: And, and any, as you say, any indigenous peoples, because there's that respect and the reverence for their elders.
• 25:19
  Robyn: Mm.
• 25:20
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:20
  Robyn: They're not putting themselves ahead because that's, when you do it, you take on things that aren't yours.
• 25:26
  Tracy: And you're out of order, right?
• 25:28
  Robyn: And we are out of order, exactly.
• 25:30
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 25:31
  Robyn: That's how you put that order back in, and what language is used in your part of the world to put you back in order.
• 25:38
  Robyn: Whatever to bring balance back, or whatever it, it might be the case that you're looking at.
• 25:45
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Tracy: Well, that's right.
• 25:47
  Tracy: Do you have many men that come to your workshops in South Africa?
• 25:50
  Robyn: I would say that if I go to one of Neil Campbell's constellations, he always has men there.
• 25:56
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:56
  Robyn: I've, I… Up until this last one that I had, I, I managed to have one man or two men coming to my circles.
• 26:04
  Robyn: But no, it's not… And I think it's, there are male facilitators, but it's not a big thing to see at-
• 26:12
  Tracy: Mm
• 26:13
  Robyn: at all the circles, which I think that it, it's kind of like any of the f- I think
• 26:18
  Tracy: that's global.
• 26:19
  Tracy: I've noticed here that there's been a bit of a change and there are more men coming in, into the field.
• 26:25
  Tracy: So slowly.
• 26:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Tracy: Mm.
• 26:27
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 26:27
  Robyn: And on my one-on-one constellations, I do have ma- male clients that do come.
• 26:32
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 26:33
  Robyn: So it's not as if it's out of their, um, sphere of awareness, so to speak.
• 26:37
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 26:38
  Tracy: What has been, for you, if you feel comfortable to share, what has been something, some of the biggest shifts that you've experienced in this work for yourself?
• 26:48
  Tracy: If there's something
• 26:50
  Robyn: that you're comfortable to share.
• 26:50
  Robyn: Um, I th- I just mentioned earlier that, that letting go of the guilt that I was carrying for my mum, of that literally releasing- Mm this hold that was holding my chest, that I couldn't breathe.
• 27:05
  Robyn: So I now know that whenever I start feeling, um, that my asthma's coming back, it's asking myself w- what have, what have I gone and collected up that isn't mine to be carrying?
• 27:17
  Robyn: Where I saw shifts, it's interesting.
• 27:20
  Robyn: I, um… Oh, I'm just thinking here.
• 27:24
  Robyn: Shifts in, I, my, my… got married, was married four times.
• 27:29
  Robyn: So in his last marriage, it was very much him sort of getting on with his life there and with his wife and her family.
• 27:42
  Robyn: And not really being included in that.
• 27:47
  Robyn: Uh, my father could see me for w- we used to go up to the bush every year, up to Mana Pools in Zimbabwe.
• 27:52
  Robyn: That was kind of like my allotted time with him according to his wife.
• 27:56
  Robyn: And with doing the work of suddenly, oh, wait, I'm being invited, I'm being included.
• 28:03
  Robyn: Big shifts as well, and this I actually find extremely interesting.
• 28:07
  Robyn: One of my yoga friends, she had constellations done with a woman in the Netherlands.
• 28:14
  Robyn: She was Dutch, and this, this facilitator had a group of people, and my friend would never be there, but she would then be reported back on the constellation.
• 28:25
  Robyn: And that's always fascinated me.
• 28:27
  Robyn: I asked E if he would do… Well, I'd first asked my brother, "Would you be interested in a constellation?" Because my stepmom, the last one, did not like my brother because sh- she didn't like his mother.
• 28:40
  Robyn: So she was very much excluded.
• 28:41
  Robyn: So he did a constellation.
• 28:43
  Robyn: I, unfortunately, I wasn't there, so I didn't even see the constellation.
• 28:47
  Robyn: He'd spoke to Chris, got agreement, this is what's happening, and the shift happened.
• 28:52
  Robyn: And then we did another constellation, and this one was with horses for Chris.
• 28:56
  Robyn: Um, there were three horses that represented my brother, his wife, and his mother.
• 29:02
  Robyn: And at the time, my brother was going through… It was just before, it was just as COVID was coming.
• 29:07
  Robyn: He was in South Africa at the time, and a big business meeting came up.
• 29:12
  Robyn: So at the last minute he couldn't go, so I sat for him And came back.
• 29:17
  Robyn: I never told him what happened in the constellation, and immediately how his wife and him started interacting, 'cause he was staying in, in our house that we have next door to us, completely changed.
• 29:29
  Tracy: Wow.
• 29:30
  Robyn: His mum, who'd been, who he'd been wanting to move into a care home and she'd been resisting, moved in.
• 29:36
  Robyn: His, um, investment that he'd been needing for his business came through, and he wasn't even there.
• 29:42
  Robyn: And that I find incredible.
• 29:44
  Robyn: So it's- And we've never, ever discussed the constellation.
• 29:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Tracy: So it's soul agreement, too, isn't it, though?
• 29:51
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 29:52
  Robyn: You know, in the constellation there was his mum's horse next door to him all the time, and then when his wife's horse could come and stand beside him, and his mum's horse could go and do what she needed to do, all the dynamics shifted.
• 30:06
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 30:08
  Robyn: And those are horses working.
• 30:09
  Robyn: Beautiful … not even people, so.
• 30:11
  Robyn: But
• 30:11
  Tracy: that was- I, I was listening to, listening to a woman on… Have you heard of the, um, what's it called?
• 30:16
  Tracy: The Birth… Oh, I get their emails all the time.
• 30:19
  Tracy: Birthing Project?
• 30:20
  Tracy: No.
• 30:21
  Tracy: Anyway.
• 30:21
  Robyn: I-
• 30:22
  Tracy: They do a lot of con- they do a lot of work around constellations.
• 30:24
  Tracy: They do all sorts of things, but-
• 30:25
  Robyn: Yeah… Tracy: there was one around this I thought, "Oh, I'll listen to that,"'cause one of our team here- Mm-hmm works with horses and constellations.
• 30:36
  Robyn: And, um, and she was saying that, you know, like, the horses just, they just know.
• 30:41
  Robyn: They just walk in.
• 30:42
  Robyn: They know.
• 30:43
  Robyn: They don't even have to force… You know, it's like they're not holding onto it like we do as human beings, right?
• 30:49
  Robyn: And so they, yeah.
• 30:51
  Robyn: And what the people were receiving from that, and the young, like, they worked a lot with young children that had been, had very difficult beginnings, and the shifts that the horses would bring and, you know.
• 31:03
  Robyn: Children that weren't interacting, chil- uh, they were acting out and doing all sorts of things, and the shifts just from having the horses be with them.
• 31:11
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 31:13
  Robyn: Very powerful-
• 31:14
  Tracy: Yeah… Robyn: creatures, yeah.
• 31:15
  Tracy: Amazing.
• 31:16
  Tracy: So there's a bit of that that goes on in South Africa too, eh, horses?
• 31:19
  Robyn: Yeah, Claudia Visser who was my first, one of my first trainers, she came across and trained horse constellations in South Africa.
• 31:27
  Robyn: So and I think there are also other people that had been doing it kind of like who were facilitators and realized-
• 31:33
  Tracy: Mm… Robyn: that it could happen.
• 31:35
  Tracy: So yeah, there are, there are horse constellations happening in Cape Town certainly.
• 31:39
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 31:39
  Tracy: And I'm, I'm not sure about what happens up north, but certainly in, in the Cape there are.
• 31:44
  Tracy: Um, yeah, the, the one that it was Sam Huckle who did, um, the constellation I spoke about with my brother and a friend of mine, um, Anthea Myburgh also does works with her horses and I know that there are other people down Scarborough way.
• 31:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 31:59
  Tracy: Are there any other animals that are used that you know of that are used in constellations?
• 32:04
  Tracy: I mean, I have my dog who's always- Yeah … when I'm doing a one-on-one she comes in and she's part of it and she's telling me stuff.
• 32:11
  Robyn: Oh, yeah.
• 32:12
  Robyn: My dog is very much part of it.
• 32:14
  Robyn: My, of the constellations, um, she comes in and out.
• 32:18
  Robyn: My cat more though with online, not, not with that.
• 32:21
  Robyn: I, I never forget when I was doing my training, um, Gerry's dog whose house we were doing it in she, he, she had a hunting dog that came from Botswana.
• 32:30
  Robyn: Ooh.
• 32:31
  Robyn: And this dog had been out in, at the compost heap or somewhere and come in with a rat that was killing underneath the dining room table.
• 32:39
  Robyn: But nobody, nobody in the field in the constellation actually saw it happen.
• 32:44
  Robyn: I was witnessing it.
• 32:45
  Robyn: I'm like, "Oh my gosh, there's a rat in the room being killed." But it was completely relevant to what was happening in the constellation.
• 32:53
  Robyn: It was really intense.
• 32:54
  Robyn: That's why nobody saw it.
• 32:56
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:56
  Robyn: But it was something that had to happen.
• 33:00
  Robyn: Um, as my dog will walk in and, and walk out when it's, it's finished.
• 33:04
  Robyn: It's like, "Okay, I've, I've done my role. I'm de-roleing. I'm going." During COVID, um, I know this is not in constellations but, um, Anthea and I did constellations for the baboons.
• 33:16
  Robyn: The, the baboons come out.
• 33:18
  Robyn: Um, so we have a problem I think some people would describe it as is so their wild baboons where they lived and foraged have become, the land's become developed.
• 33:28
  Robyn: They've come into urban areas, food's easy to get, dirt bins, fruit trees and they'd- Concerned citizens had originally started taking care of baboons and having baboon monitors where they would move them on, and then it had been taken over by the city, and the care that went into it had been lost.
• 33:48
  Robyn: So yeah, we constellated what, what did the baboons need, what, what needed to be happening as it was doing a changeover and representing the baboons as a person, so to speak, was, um, a person, Winter, whose surname I can't think of, but she was very involved with it and is also an animal communicator.
• 34:08
  Robyn: So we had lots of animal communicators as part of representatives, and they were brilliant.
• 34:12
  Robyn: They slipped into this role as a representative so easily because of their animal communication, of just-
• 34:20
  Tracy: Wow… Robyn: dropping in and embodying So what came out of that for the baboons?
• 34:27
  Robyn: Well, one of the things which I found really interesting was in a space where there was, was their open space down in the South Peninsula, that they'd been chased off that land.
• 34:38
  Robyn: Oh.
• 34:38
  Robyn: So they didn't feel safe in the land that was their own anymore.
• 34:43
  Robyn: Mm. So they were coming into this area where they, um, also weren't safe.
• 34:49
  Robyn: So it was almost like allow- getting them f- to feel safe in the place that was their land.
• 34:55
  Robyn: And what came out of that was a ritual that we did down, um, in, in the South Peninsula with one of the Khoi leaders, and came and did drums, a drumming ceremony for the baboons to call them back into this land that was theirs.
• 35:12
  Tracy: Wow.
• 35:13
  Tracy: And did that work?
• 35:14
  Robyn: I don't know, to tell you the truth.
• 35:17
  Tracy: Mm.
• 35:17
  Robyn: But it certainly felt like it opened up That they could come back into the space.
• 35:22
  Robyn: Unfortunately, I think they become quite dependent upon some of the human food as well.
• 35:28
  Robyn: Yes.
• 35:28
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Robyn: But they are absolutely wonderful when, um… They used to come into my dad's garden in Constantia, and he would lie in bed when he wasn't well and watch them swim in his pool and So for some people, that was absolutely terrible, and for him, he thought it was absolutely marvelous.
• 35:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:45
  Tracy: They'd found their own resort.
• 35:46
  Robyn: Yes, absolutely.
• 35:48
  Tracy: Oh, wow.
• 35:50
  Robyn: Um, yeah.
• 35:51
  Tracy: Fascinating.
• 35:51
  Tracy: Yeah, my cat comes in, and he always, almost always plays the villain, the perpetrator.
• 35:58
  Tracy: Oh,
• 35:58
  Robyn: really?
• 35:59
  Tracy: He- 'cause he's got perpetrator energy.
• 36:01
  Tracy: He, he can be… We call him … His name's Robin.
• 36:05
  Tracy: Robin the Little Fucker is what we call him.
• 36:07
  Tracy: Because he was named after Robin Williams in Robin and Robbie Williams.
• 36:12
  Tracy: Yes.
• 36:12
  Tracy: Two of my faves.
• 36:14
  Tracy: And he can be really nice until they, until he's not, and it's usually very quick.
• 36:18
  Tracy: Okay.
• 36:18
  Tracy: And I'd never had a cat like that before.
• 36:21
  Tracy: But anyway, he comes in.
• 36:22
  Tracy: He'll often come in, and sometimes he'll be the most nicest cat, 'cause I'm always like, "Ooh, careful. He comes with a warning. You know, he comes… Maybe don't pet him." And he'll be the nicest cat during the constellation, and he'll smooch all over someone, and he'll let them pet him.
• 36:38
  Tracy: The minute that constellation's over, he's like, "Ahomph." He'll bite them and then leave.
• 36:44
  Tracy: Oh, really?
• 36:44
  Tracy: And then leave, yeah.
• 36:45
  Tracy: He's like, it's like a totally different cat.
• 36:48
  Tracy: So sometimes he plays the nice guy, but often he comes in, and he holds that energy of, of the perpetrator, and, and it's like- Yeah … "Okay, well, there's some energy that's just come into the space." And more often than not, my little dog, she's good at pointing out the things that I may not be seeing or that I haven't-
• 37:05
  Robyn: Mm-hmm
• 37:05
  Tracy: addressed at the time.
• 37:06
  Tracy: You know?
• 37:07
  Tracy: Like she'll, and she'll just look at me and go like this.
• 37:10
  Tracy: Mm. I'm like, "What?" And she'll sort of look at the spot on the floor or, you know, if there's a marker on the floor or something like that, or she'll lie between two- Yes … and then look at me.
• 37:20
  Tracy: So yeah, such a good representative.
• 37:23
  Robyn: Yeah, Jordi is, um, my, my Golden Retriever.
• 37:25
  Robyn: She's… She comes in as support sometimes, is where she comes up, and she just puts her head sort of, like, up into the person's chest- Mm … to say, "I'm here for you." Um, and sometimes it'll be she also does it, like, "Okay, I'm out of here.
• 37:38
  Robyn: Foof." And it's like, "I'm taking what you don't need anymore.
• 37:42
  Robyn: I'm taking that outside.
• 37:43
  Robyn: It's, it's gotta go." Mm. "It's, it's, it's time, it's time to go.
• 37:46
  Robyn: It's time to, to let this go." Yeah.
• 37:49
  Robyn: In fact, she's really adamant about that.
• 37:50
  Robyn: Um, and also she, she will also lie down, like, oh, here's somebody who, somebody who… It could be a, an, a child that, that died or was never- Yeah … She'll, like, lie, and then suddenly everybody is… That's who they're looking at.
• 38:04
  Robyn: So yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting.
• 38:06
  Robyn: Um, and it's also not just what our animals do.
• 38:10
  Robyn: I was doing a constellation with someone, and I'm standing in my healing room, and along came a bird of prey and caught a pigeon in mid-fly.
• 38:19
  Robyn: It was like, wow, okay, something's been taken out.
• 38:23
  Robyn: You know, it's like- Yeah did I see that?
• 38:25
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 38:25
  Robyn: And for me, that's just absolutely part of what's happening in the constellation.
• 38:31
  Robyn: You can't ignore that.
• 38:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Robyn: Um-
• 38:33
  Tracy: Yeah… Robyn: so yeah.
• 38:35
  Tracy: I was d- and I was doing a, um… When I was doing my training with Pia Storm-Kalhoff, the guinea fowls went wild, and one of them was taken, and it was round.
• 38:45
  Tracy: It was a life and death constellation that was happening for me.
• 38:48
  Tracy: Wow.
• 38:49
  Tracy: And the, the guinea fowl was killed during it, and because it was just this cacophony of noise that happened, and went outside, and there were just these feathers everywhere, and one of them had been taken.
• 39:00
  Tracy: It was like, okay, what does that mean for me?
• 39:03
  Tracy: W- it's- Mm. Yeah.
• 39:05
  Tracy: The field is speaking.
• 39:06
  Tracy: Br- it's amazing, isn't it?
• 39:07
  Tracy: The field is
• 39:08
  Robyn: speaking.
• 39:08
  Robyn: Yeah, and I, and I was… You know, when you think about that, of the field is speaking, is that how silent the field can be as well.
• 39:16
  Robyn: Particularly I was thinking about Pia of, like, she, she trained and, and attended Bert Hellinger's trainings right up until, until his passing of this, and she's, like, was a master of just absolutely silent with the representatives are saying nothing.
• 39:32
  Robyn: It's just a conversation with the client.
• 39:34
  Robyn: And where now we're on a screen, we're wanting to say, "Well, actually, I'm s- I'm trying to block this person," but I know that I'm blocking that person, and that when we had spoke afterwards, the other pers- the person who I, I was trying to block would know that I was blocking them.
• 39:49
  Robyn: Mm. So where we sometimes feel that we want to express everything as representatives, field knows.
• 39:55
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 39:55
  Robyn: And it's that movement that needs to happen within the client to open up movement in the field.
• 40:03
  Robyn: And if the client can't move, the field can't move.
• 40:06
  Robyn: And, and I feel the same for when I'm working one-on-one with someone if we're working with the little constellation people, as I call them, the little dolls.
• 40:15
  Robyn: I'll say to them, "Well, th- they're like, it's like a magnet, where a magnet sticks." And unless you can have that internal movement, they can't move.
• 40:23
  Robyn: You can't put them where you want them to be.
• 40:26
  Robyn: It's gotta be a movement in the field as to how they're going to move, and it's gotta be the same whether it's a doll or a representative.
• 40:33
  Tracy: I was gonna say that.
• 40:34
  Tracy: Yeah, I've seen, I've often seen people, um, you know, even in the little exercises sometimes I've seen people make it how they want it to be.
• 40:43
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:43
  Tracy: This is how I want it to be.
• 40:45
  Tracy: And you, and you can feel it.
• 40:46
  Tracy: There's, it's just not… There's no movement or, or it's really uncomfortable and the, and the representatives are trying to turn away straight away and yeah.
• 40:56
  Tracy: It's got to be, hasn't it?
• 40:57
  Tracy: It's got to be that, uh, that movement in the client, and as you say, something shifts in there.
• 41:04
  Robyn: And then the movement comes in the field.
• 41:06
  Tracy: Mm.
• 41:06
  Robyn: I'll never forget years ago I was at a Francesca, um, constellation that she was doing a f- a big w- a big workshop in South Africa, and we were actually constellating Hout Bay, which is where I live, because there were so many people attending the workshop from Hout Bay, and we just had this huge fire.
• 41:23
  Robyn: And Hout Bay has got like a microcosm of South Africa in it.
• 41:26
  Robyn: It's got- Um, people from outside of Africa there.
• 41:31
  Robyn: They've got people from the Eastern Cape that, that have come down, the Xhosa speaking people.
• 41:36
  Robyn: You've got on the other side is a fishing community where you've got people of, um, the colored community, the descendants of the Khoi.
• 41:42
  Robyn: And, and you've got the white community in the valley, so you've got everyone.
• 41:47
  Robyn: And somebody in the constellation wanted to do a movement towards the end, and she did this and wanted… And everybody, including the w- all just said, "No." It was like somebody who was wanting to fix something, but it was such a strong no that that's not what the field wants.
• 42:05
  Robyn: I've never seen anything so strong and such a, a uniform reaction of like,"Mm-mm, you can't be doing that."
• 42:13
  Tracy: Mm. And it probably had to be seen, right, for everyone to have that- Yeah… moment of, "Oh, this is potently powerful, that there's a definite no in this."
• 42:22
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 42:22
  Robyn: No, we can't fix it like that.
• 42:24
  Robyn: That's not a… It's what you want to do, it's not what the field wants.
• 42:29
  Tracy: Mm.
• 42:30
  Robyn: It's like when people suddenly start moving quickly, it's like I'm the mother, I think that this child should be hugged when it's not right.
• 42:38
  Robyn: It's not, not a- Mm … it's representative helping instead of the, um, the field.
• 42:44
  Tracy: The field, exactly.
• 42:46
  Tracy: How do you describe your work in the, in the realm of constellations?
• 42:50
  Robyn: What I have on my website, which I suppose I should update, but how I put it because it came, um… I'd had my… When I… So I started facilitating in 2018, so I'd had my practice for eight years.
• 43:02
  Robyn: And it was like, when you've done all the work on yourself and this issue is just not moving and you're stuck,'cause I work a lot with stuckness-
• 43:11
  Tracy: Mm-hmm… Robyn: it's time to start to look at your family system.
• 43:15
  Tracy: And, and that's what constellation offers you.
• 43:19
  Tracy: And then to say it, we… Bert Hellinger spent time in South Africa with the Zulu people and he, um, was fluent in Zulu and he understood the respect for ancestors.
• 43:31
  Tracy: And he then went back to Germany and studied and then created this work that we now know as family constellations that is underpinned by the orders of love.
• 43:43
  Tracy: And it's something that has to be experienced.
• 43:45
  Tracy: But there… These are the orders, that everyone belongs, that there's this balance with give and take, that, um, there is an order.
• 43:53
  Tracy: And when those principles aren't, or philosophies maybe, are not being, have been muddled up.
• 44:00
  Tracy: And it's always from a place of love.
• 44:02
  Tracy: Nobody does things maliciously.
• 44:04
  Tracy: It's done from a place of love.
• 44:06
  Tracy: It's done from a need to belong in my family.
• 44:09
  Tracy: It's done because I care so much for this person.
• 44:12
  Tracy: And they become muddled, and we need to put them right.
• 44:17
  Tracy: And we use constellations because if we knew these things, if we knew what they were- Would be able to fix it but constellations shows what you're not seeing, what's not obvious through the process of representing.
• 44:30
  Tracy: Yeah, and that's… You need to experience it.
• 44:33
  Tracy: You do.
• 44:34
  Tracy: You do.
• 44:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 44:35
  Tracy: And, and, and would you call yourself more in the shamanic realm of it or some people don't like that word, partic- I certainly have had a journey with it.
• 44:46
  Tracy: But, um, or, you know, or don't like to call themselves a shamanic and… Or would you say you're more traditional or nature-based?
• 44:55
  Robyn: I would say that the part of me that, 'cause I am a shamanic practitioner, I won't call myself a shaman.
• 45:01
  Robyn: Mm. I can call myself a diviner, 'cause that I am.
• 45:02
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 45:02
  Robyn: Um, and I can call myself a priest in the Sacred Undean tradition'cause that, that is what I am.
• 45:11
  Robyn: And we never do any work without creating a space of safety and sacredness.
• 45:18
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 45:18
  Robyn: So I never start a constellation being at a group or a one-on-one without creating that space of that holding space that we're working within.
• 45:29
  Robyn: And so I would say from that point of view it's different because I don't see that with all facilitators, certainly when I've attended international events.
• 45:40
  Robyn: So it's, it's creating that placeholder.
• 45:43
  Robyn: It's… I can take out my drum and drum if I need to in the middle of a constellation.
• 45:47
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 45:48
  Robyn: I will maybe in, in South America from the Peru they talk about, we have, um, your itu apu, which is your, um, your earth father, and you have your pecorina, which is your earth mother.
• 46:00
  Robyn: Mm. And sometimes people need those.
• 46:02
  Robyn: So that I might bring into a constellation is that, yeah, you might have connection with your parents, but have you got connection to the earth?
• 46:09
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 46:10
  Robyn: So things like that will come in when they need to come in.
• 46:15
  Robyn: And, um, I've kind of done the shamanic constellations and I went back to train with Tanya to understand more about the classical constellations, and then I trained with, um, with Peer, which was more about the movement of the spirit.
• 46:28
  Robyn: So I find that I move into the style depending on the person, on the client- Yes … and what they are presenting and what their field wants as to how it's working.
• 46:41
  Robyn: And sometimes it might depend upon the representatives that are there.
• 46:44
  Robyn: You know, you might need to go into a more controlled kind of classical way- Yeah if you've got people who want to, um, help or they want to, um, do their download of psychic information that they want to share, which is gonna be taking the field maybe into a way that it doesn't need to go into.
• 47:04
  Robyn: So- Mm. Yeah … um, I, I think-
• 47:06
  Tracy: Oh, that's a good, that's a good sub- that's a good subject to talk about in itself, isn't it?
• 47:10
  Tracy: Like how do you deal with that?
• 47:11
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 47:12
  Tracy: Um, how do you deal with that when someone comes in wanting to share all their gifts, we'll say, in the field?
• 47:21
  Robyn: is to, um, I realize it is actually something that needs to be said at the start of the constellation circle to say that when we represent, it's about a feeling within your body.
• 47:33
  Robyn: Can I look at this person?
• 47:34
  Robyn: Do I wanna move away from this person?
• 47:37
  Robyn: What is the emotion or the sense that's coming up in me?
• 47:40
  Robyn: Mm. Um, it's not providing a whole lot of information that you might be privy to because you've got this gift.
• 47:47
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 47:47
  Robyn: If you've got something that's really strong, call me over and tell me quietly in my ear because I have had a constellation where it was disruptive and I've been attending a constellation where somebody was wanting to speak about what the grandmother wanted and this and that and it was kind of pulling off from where the constellation was going and the movement and it was kind of doing this
• 48:13
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 48:14
  Robyn: So.
• 48:14
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 48:15
  Tracy: It does, it's very distractive, isn't it?
• 48:17
  Tracy: And it's and, and it's a fine line I sometimes say and it's felt.
• 48:21
  Tracy: It's a felt experience in that space what's there.
• 48:24
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 48:25
  Tracy: Mm. And it's, it's- We don't want Aunt, Aunt May's apple pie recipe or her advi-
• 48:30
  Robyn: Yes … um,
• 48:31
  Tracy: advice.
• 48:32
  Tracy: We're just looking for the facts and
• 48:34
  Robyn: And it's something that I've considered that when I'm doing my energy healing, the kind of information I get versus when I'm doing a constellation, the kind of information I get.
• 48:43
  Robyn: Energy healing c- situation it can be very specific and it is do- downloads of information which when I'm facilitating I know I used to completely block and then it's a case of saying, "Okay. What is the information that is useful?" Mm. And which is the information that is not part of a constellation.
• 49:04
  Robyn: ' Tracy: Cause as the facilitator it is Yes.
• 49:09
  Robyn: Because it gives you an indication of, oh, this is like you can… You, you will get the information that, oh, this is five generations ago.
• 49:16
  Robyn: Boom, it's come and- Yeah … very clear.
• 49:18
  Robyn: This is five generations ago.
• 49:19
  Robyn: How'd you get to that conclusion?
• 49:20
  Robyn: It's just I just know it.
• 49:22
  Robyn: Yes.
• 49:22
  Robyn: Just can feel it in the field, right?
• 49:25
  Robyn: The field has, has shared that information with me or whatever.
• 49:28
  Robyn: Yes.
• 49:28
  Robyn: Mm.
• 49:28
  Tracy: Different to having all your representatives pinging off and sharing what's coming through for them psychically.
• 49:35
  Robyn: Yeah.
• 49:35
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 49:36
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Tracy: It's kind
• 49:37
  Robyn: of- Yeah.
• 49:37
  Robyn: It's like suddenly knowing, oh, I've got to bring a past life into this constellation.
• 49:42
  Robyn: Put a line between.
• 49:43
  Robyn: There's a past life.
• 49:44
  Robyn: There's the constellation that we're doing.
• 49:46
  Robyn: Is it impacting on this life?
• 49:48
  Robyn: Yeah, it is.
• 49:49
  Robyn: Okay.
• 49:49
  Robyn: Then speak it, but I'm not going to announce that this is what I'm doing until I've done it.
• 49:56
  Robyn: Some of those knowings.
• 49:57
  Robyn: It's like I'm gonna just try something here.
• 50:00
  Robyn: Oh yeah, it is this past life contract that you made that's playing out in this life, so.
• 50:05
  Robyn: I know that when I first started facilitating where we were told is like you go in empty.
• 50:10
  Robyn: Yes.
• 50:10
  Robyn: You've learned all these orders of love.
• 50:12
  Robyn: You've learned this, things about these, how things can show up, but forget it all.
• 50:17
  Robyn: So I would go in forgetting everything because I was not going to be channeling any information at all until I realized, well, that, that's not working 'cause I'm totally reliant on the, on the, um, representatives.
• 50:31
  Robyn: I've got to go in with the gifts that I've got.
• 50:33
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 50:34
  Robyn: That is how I use that information, and the information- Mm … that I get when I'm doing a constellation is not the same as the information I'm getting when I'm doing a divination.
• 50:44
  Robyn: It's, it's different space.
• 50:46
  Robyn: It's different time.
• 50:48
  Robyn: Mm. It's, it's, it's the same that would apply.
• 50:51
  Tracy: Oh, I had something I was gonna share, say then, but now that's completely gone as well.
• 50:56
  Tracy: Kind of been relevant.
• 50:57
  Tracy: So.
• 50:57
  Tracy: We'll let that one go.
• 50:58
  Tracy: I think we're just about ready to wrap up.
• 51:00
  Tracy: If someone wanted to get hold of you, how would they find you if they wanna have a constellation online with you or come to something that you're offering in South Africa?
• 51:09
  Robyn: I've got a website called Inner Peace Healing, so if you Google Inner Peace Healing or Robyn Fergus, you'd find me.
• 51:15
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 51:16
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 51:17
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 51:18
  Tracy: And quite convenient hours for anyone in New Zealand really I think if they're… Or even the South Africa, you know, like the time zones.
• 51:25
  Tracy: Some time zones are really, um, not a good match.
• 51:29
  Tracy: But South Africa and New Zealand seem to have a good time zone match.
• 51:33
  Robyn: Yeah, and, and I've clients that are across in, in America I'm doing an evening, and it's their morning, so it's like swap round from what you are.
• 51:43
  Tracy: Mm, yeah.
• 51:45
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 51:45
  Tracy: Brilliant.
• 51:46
  Tracy: Thank you so much, Robyn.
• 51:47
  Tracy: I'm going to, um-
• 51:50
  Robyn: That's okay … end that there.
• 51:50
  Robyn: Okay then.
• 51:52
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 51:53
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 51:58
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright, that's Tracey with no E, .cartwright.
• 52:04
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 52:14
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.