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Gambling Addiction: Am I Addicted or Just on a Losing Streak? · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: For every person who has a gambling problem, it affects six other people.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Psychologist Dr.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Zhang joins us to share evidence-based strategies for breaking the cycle of gambling addiction.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm saying to myself, okay, I've lost a whole lot of money and I know just how to get it back, right?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can I've won before I can win again.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Am I just completely ignoring the and I've lost before and I can lose again?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Terry McGuire.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Gambling has become a part of everyday life for millions of people, from casinos and online poker to sports betting and mobile apps.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: But for some, what starts as entertainment slowly becomes something painful and isolating.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Today, Dr.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Zhang joins us for a conversation about the psychology of gambling addiction, why it can be so hard to recognize, and that gambling addictions are recoverable.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: A quick note if you or someone you know is in crisis, please call or text the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800 GAMBLER.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Zang, welcome to our set and welcome to this to recoverable.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much uh for welcoming me.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll just say one thing.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that phone number you just mentioned, it's funny because uh the apparently there was some dispute about like who owns this phone number and and what it should be.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: And apparently now there's another phone number that they're promoting, which is 1-800 My Reset.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: I guess we have at least that other option too.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good to know.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: My reset.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're gonna start with a general overview just because, as you said before we sat down, this is not discussed as much as it needs to be.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: There is not a general understanding of what gambling addiction is and how it can be treated.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, for people who have never thought much about this issue, how do you define a gambling addiction?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how is it different from simply gambling a lot?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: I believe when someone's gambling to an extent where they start wondering, hold on, I've I've lost, I've lost a lot more than than I thought I would, something's sort of changing here.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: I feel stuck, I feel trapped.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Something about the gambling makes me believe that the way to solve it is to keep gambling.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is where we start having to look at this as more of an addiction, uh, more of a potentially, if we use formal terms, more of a diagnosis per se.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: I believe most people who are actually in the midst of experiencing whether it's just gambling or gambling problems or the evolution to gambling disorder or addiction, like that they have a sense of what's going on.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so for anyone who's actually in kind of going through the stages of gambling, they probably themselves have a good sense of, ah, this is something's not quite right here.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: But then I feel like the way to solve this is to keep gambling.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And when you have that mindset, you're definitely uh in the territory of whether we want to call it addiction or disorder or problem, problematic gambling, problem gambling, whatever we call it, ultimately there's a struggle there.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, and I think people know the struggle, actually, which which is quite interesting.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: In themselves, you mean?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: In themselves.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that they know the struggle.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: From everyone I've ever worked with, I've seen it in a way, and and there's a strong sense of the struggle they're going through.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, if you're if gambling is causing you to struggle, then you're likely having a problem.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: And part of the struggle may even be hiding the struggle, right?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: So there's just so many layers to it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: But if it's becoming more complicated for you, if it's becoming more complex, if it's uh if it's running your life around in circles you never expected, then certainly uh you probably have a strong sense that gambling is no longer good for you.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You brought up the stages of gambling.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are they?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: When people start gambling, it's so innocent usually.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's just so fun and so exciting, so new.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And what when they first start, you you could have a win, you could have a loss, and that sort of shapes what happens after.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: So usually if you start with a loss and you and you go again, say, and you and you have another loss, you're probably thinking, ah, I don't really like this very much.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't this isn't what I was interested in.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's not what others made it out to be.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: When you start with a win, oh boy, this is where it could go down a very different path because that win makes you believe a few things.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's just first of all, it's a it's an amazing experience.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's be clear about that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it feels great.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, like any like any winning does.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: It feels great.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a touch to money.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: So for for a lot of people, too, the amount of money you can win early on feels like so much.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: You and you start weighing, this is like this amount of money means that I don't need to work anymore.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Easy and fun as compared to work.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's easy money, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's easy money, it's quick, okay.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then and then you start to have a sort of meaning about gambling.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: It starts to mean something to you in a way that then takes you down the trajectory where we look at perhaps the next stage is we start recreationally gambling.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's still fun, and probably the wins are outweighing the losses.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, whoa, again, let's keep going.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm seeing a traject a trajectory here where maybe I could make money on gambling long term.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and it feels just so it doesn't feel boring in the same way as just sticking out my my regular job does or making money some other way that that that's much steadier.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: This feels like it is such a wonderful opportunity.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: And as the recreational gambling continues, that's where it usually enters into more of a problem stage for people where they realize, or they start to realize that they're losing more than they're winning.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: The losses are adding up, they're catching up.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: By design.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: All by design.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's how the games, no matter what forms of gambling games we're talking about, um, or or systems, it's all by design.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And when that starts catching up, that's where you enter more of that problem gambling stage.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then as it keeps evolving, then it could get really severe, it could get really intense.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where maybe it's uh we could call it, like we said a moment ago, more of a diagnosis, a diagnosis or a or a disorder or uh an addiction.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and this stuff doesn't happen like over the course of a few days, it happens usually over years.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and as it happens, just things get worse and worse for the people who are experiencing the gambling problems.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it breaks my heart because I've worked with hundreds of people uh who've struggled in uh in their own ways because of gambling, and it could affect potentially every part of their life.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: And when I've first started working in this space, I used to think gambling is just so isolated.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's like just one, it's one area of your life.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, it's not a it's not like something that that could be so comprehensive uh and overarching, but it turns out, I mean, because it touches on your money and your income, affects your work, your family life and mental health and physical health.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, the list just goes on and on.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: It could really affect every area of your life and it it could destroy everything.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so, it's so sad for me.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of the reason why I do the work that I do because I am so motivated, like the industry, ironically, is motivated to keep people gambling.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: I am so motivated to help people overcome gambling.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you said that it can take a long time for a behavior, this gambling, to turn from something fun, entertaining, casual to something problematic.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is the awareness that it is has become a problem also slow to develop?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or like when you really start seeing the losses, is it like, oh, this is a problem?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: The awareness is there all throughout.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the the awareness is is met with a sort of defense, meaning we realize what's happening to an extent, but we also realize that uh it's something that we don't want others to know about.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that we're gonna have to hide.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we feel a great deal of shame about this.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: And because of how gambling is designed, ultimately we trick ourselves into believing that we can solve this problem using the same thing that created the problem.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: So for some people, there's uh events in their lives and maybe traumatic experiences and other things that have uh been quite stressful for them before they even ever get into gambling.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: But for others, it like a lot of that comes because of gambling and it comes from gambling.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: And when these things happen, gambling starts looking and feeling like the solution to those money problems because it is possible.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is possible to win, and then we start tricking ourselves believing, okay, even if I just had a dollar, I can turn that into 10, I can turn that into 100, I can keep going.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason I might believe that is because I've seen it happen before.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm relying on that almost like uh like a template, like, hey, if it happened before, it could happen again.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And if it does happen, it could actually solve the problem.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: But even for people who do get back the money, they keep going.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it never solves the problem.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very interesting addiction in a sense, compared to all the others, I believe.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very fascinating one because of how it can trick and trap our minds in a very different way.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like if I'm saying to myself, okay, I've lost a whole lot of money and I know just how to get it back, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can I've won before, I can win again.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: But am I just completely ignoring the and I've lost before and I can lose again?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or I usually lose?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is that just overridden?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: It is definitely overridden.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: And because part of the solution is you get to the point where all of those losses they are inevitable.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you see that and you feel that, and that means something to you different to what the early winning experiences were like.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny because we'd say, well, uh in theory, shouldn't anyone who keeps gambling once they see that their losses outweigh their wins, once the losses keep escalating and increasing, shouldn't that be enough to just stop people?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: But it it's funny because even part of the diagnostic criteria itself is chasing losses is one of the primary symptoms of this problem.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Not to mention, we're chasing losses in order to try to chase those wins.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: We're trying to get to those wins that will erase those losses.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: And again, can this happen?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it can happen.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're in the midst of it, when it's gotten to a certain point, those losses are inevitable no matter how much you win back.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it just keeps spiraling.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: And what felt like an escape is really the trap because ultimately a lot of people will also say, Hey, I feel like gambling is my way of escaping.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: Escaping what?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: Escaping the problems that gambling has caused, largely.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: And the more the gambling spirals, the worse it gets, the worse those problems also get.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So essentially the escape is the trap.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the difference between the brain of someone who gambles and says, Oh, this is ridiculous.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was really fun when I won, but I'm losing too much and I'm out, and someone who gets into that cycle where they are chasing the loss, as we'll discuss.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of that has to do with the anticipation period.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like not even what happens after you've had a gambling outcome or even a session.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's like what's happening before that as you've placed a bet and you're anticipating, oftentimes, it could be a win.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: It could be a win.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that feeling that you get there, that's the real uh people people say that's that's the dopamine.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: People say that that that's where the report, the reward pathway, the anticipation, the learning, the reinforcement all come together in that moment.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what makes it so addictive.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what makes it, that's what makes it a problem for people.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's those moments before uh the outcome is even revealed.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not like, oh, I wine and I feel the pleasure.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's I'm getting that even before any of that happens.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: And for people who are on the other side, it's more of a mindset and a meaning that speaks to them and says, this is not worth it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm not like I like I mentioned earlier, if you if you start your gambling career with loss after loss after loss, you're stopping.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna keep going.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and for others as well, maybe there's some sporadic wins sprinkled in between here somewhere, but it's not the focus because the losing mindset is much stronger than the winning mindset.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: And the psychological meaning of gambling just isn't there.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's attached to other things in life, other parts of you know what they're experiencing, not so much the gambling.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas for people who are stuck with gambling, the meaning of it is, I mean, we talked about dopamine being the mechanism, perhaps, but the real problem, I believe, is the meaning that's attached to the gambling.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes a real difference in, I believe, when it becomes a problem for someone where it just uh whereas for others it could just stay recreational.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the meaning that someone attaches to gambling, which makes it more likely that it will develop into a an addiction, is freedom.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: What what is the meaning?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Freedom is a part of it.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's definitely a hope attached to it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think it comes down to a possibility too.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So possibility of what could happen, how this could change things.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: And gambling is engineered to create possibility.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually the product.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, it's it's not like other products where if you're if you're on Netflix and you're streaming, you actually have, oh, like here's what I'm watching, and and I'm getting something out of it.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, if I go to a restaurant, then you know I've ordered something I like and I'm enjoying it, and I'm actually consuming it.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Here, we're not consuming the same products, we're consuming possibility.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that possibility is the meaning, especially I think now for a lot of people, when they feel trapped just in their own experience of the world or in their own experience of society, um, or even of themselves, gambling comes can come to mean something because it can deliver on that possibility.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not just like saying, oh, here's here's a regular amount of money that you will get because of gambling, like uh maybe$5 at a time.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like that where it feels a lot flatter.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's more like you could get$5,000.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: You could win$5,000 right now.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that possibility really awakens sort of something in someone.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I believe that the the meaning of gambling also uh extends to just meeting meeting needs, meeting needs in life that don't feel met by other other areas of someone's life and experience.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: So that when gambling becomes about meeting certain needs around around the self, even self-worth, um, around someone's identity, around feeling even competent, and even feeling validated.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like those, those are common needs that gambling can sort of meet in a weird way, that's where it becomes really meaningful for somebody as well.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So believing that a gambling addiction is just about money is missing all of that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's both.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it's about money.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, money makes it meaningful.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Money makes it meaningful.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: But there's all these other layers too that I think most people aren't studying, they're not focusing on, they don't understand.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I believe we have to continue to open this conversation to really get to the heart of what's of what gambling is about.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because money doesn't matter.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: If we replace money with just units, let's just call it units, no longer money, okay?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it definitely loses the meaning.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny because for people who don't necessarily have a gambling problem, they probably see it that way too, where it's like, it's not money so much, it's it's units, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that's just especially if I want to keep going, uh, it's just it's manageable, it's it's it's not the same currency.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: But for people who kind of take it to, hey, money, money's a big deal.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: But on top of that, the whole psychological layers in someone's life, their self-worth, their identity, yeah, all of that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're the emotional meaning, I mean, it's massive.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's massive.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't see really anyone talking about that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Making treatment based on that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about how much gambling has changed because you know, 20 years ago, you went to the track, you know, we went to the casino, you bought a lottery ticket.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're walking around with all of that in our pocket.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: How has that changed things?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's changed massively.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I I'll give uh just an example just so uh people can see it more clearly.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm from Australia, so uh and I and I'm from Sydney.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: And in Sydney, so you actually have pretty much on like in in every suburb and every town, you've got uh either clubs or pubs and other local venues where you can go and play slot machines.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh over there, they call them like electronic gaming machines.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's available and it's accessible, and you can kind of get anywhere within a couple of minutes.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and you've got multiple options as well.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: But there's still a level of friction, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like going somewhere and the steps that it takes, the effort that it takes.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Now look at what's happening, whether in Australia, whether in the US or anywhere else, we're seeing it's available instantaneously, it's accessible always, all the time.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also personalized in such a such a unique and strong way.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: And devious.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Devious, I mean, all of it like it's it's literally engineered now to be that option that you can just that that easy go-to option.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: So taking away all of that friction, making it so accessible so that you can easily place a bet.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: So easily, literally within a few seconds, place a bet and easily place your next bet and put as much money as you'd like into it and keep going for as long as you can financially sustain it.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's all a part of how this gambling system works because ultimately, the more people are doing this, the more money spent on gambling, the faster it goes in.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: The quicker this industry grows and it's growing very quickly, especially in the online world, in the commercial gambling sector.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: I believe the number is uh of re uh for revenue last year in the US was about$79 billion.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that doesn't include tribal gaming.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that that doesn't include prediction markets, which people say now is like gambling too.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the fastest growth in the revenue is online forms of gambling.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's the ones that are most accessible.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the ones where you have to go and plan your Vegas trip.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's not land-based gambling anymore.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: Those are still growing steadily and they're still very high in volume and revenue, but it's not the same.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right now, sports betting, uh, prediction markets, different forms of trading, like these forms of gambling, the more gamified, financialized forms of gambling are the ones that are really emerging.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's what's sad for me is that you see such an asymmetry where you have on this side of things the industry so motivated to make all of this available for people who feel, I suppose a lot of people are feeling trapped in it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, especially as they're spending a lot of their money gambling.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: But then on the other side, you've got the recovery industry that's almost non-existent by comparison to the gambling industry.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, what other options are on this side?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: And if I really want to work on my recovery, can I work on it as accessibly as my gambling?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: Can I work on it without the same friction as my gambling?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: Can I work on it in a way that's meaningful to me and that has a whole system and an ecosystem built around it?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: No, not really.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's not really available at the moment.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes me sad.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that also makes me motivated to do the work that I do because ultimately there's too many people suffering and struggling because of gambling.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just trying to help as many of those people as I can.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Many of the people who are struggling too, maybe including some of those who are listening right now, they don't feel ready to seek help.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, the numbers of people who are actually seeking help for gambling is so low.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: So if we just look at the estimated number of people who have a diagnosable disorder of gambling in the USA, it's going to be about 3 million people.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: So out of the 3 million people, probably about 10% of those might seek treatment, might, might seek help in their life.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's a small percentage of those that continue in that journey as well.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't even include those who are just struggling with gambling, maybe don't have a diagnosis, more of a moderate level of gambling.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably another 10 million, maybe, maybe even more.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: So and and those people are even less likely to seek help for their gambling.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like you go from 10% down to 5%.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, or maybe even less a bit less than that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: So ultimately, there's a lot of people that that realize that they need help with it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: And definitely they're looking for what they can do, but there's just not much available.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: And for people who who for the same people, when you're looking for gambling, oh, it's available anywhere you look.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's looking for you, actually.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, these traps are so sophisticated now, and the designs are so uh they're just so effective that they'll very easily get you into their system.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get to lightning realm, but you you've raised another question, and I needed to have an understanding before we could get to them.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: If more than 90% of the people who you think have a diagnosable, uh even if it's not diagnosed, a diagnosable gambling addiction are not seeking treatment, that's only in part, I would think, because there's not as much gambling specific treatment available.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's all the rest of it.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's all the rest of it?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why people aren't they're not ready yet, they're they're still chasing that loss.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Living double lives, that's what it is.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: You have one life that's like on the surface, everything looks normal, everything looks the way it should.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Even their own family members, for a lot of them, wouldn't even know that gambling is going on in the background.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: So for a lot of people, and it's quite interesting because I see that as a strength.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Strangely, I see that as a strength because if you can conduct a double life that includes a gambling life, that says something about like your capabilities because you're hiding that whole other life to the extent that when people when family members find out, like I've heard many spouses or partners who found out and they were like, Oh, thank goodness, I thought you were cheating on me.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: I thought I thought that's that was the issue.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Now I get it, it was gambling.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you you could argue, I probably would argue they were cheating on you with gambling because it becomes a relationship in a very real way.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that double life is in part what what continues the cycle and just keeps it going and makes it harder to come out because it's unrelenting.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: It just wants you to keep going and keep covering it up because ultimately again, the problem feels like the solution.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: So the answer is let's keep gambling and let's keep that double life going and something feels right about that, even when something else feels wrong about it for the people who are struggling.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you were saying there's actually like a strength implicit in the ability to have two lives going at the same time.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean that you see that as a positive?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they ever brought that second part over and integrated it, you'd be like full blazes ahead or whatever the expression is.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was a whole lot of mixed metaphors.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of attacking the addiction, is that what you were getting at?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: I see that as a massive positive because when you can leverage, and again, like we we we talk about people even having experiencing trouble seeking help, but let's say you get down the the path of recovery.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say you can go from what I call gambling mode to recovery mode, and let's kind of work with making that shift and making, like you said, more of that integration.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Then what that allows you to do is really build your really rebuild your life in such a beautiful way.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's it's rebuilding.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's rebuilding.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's because I've worked with so many people who've done this, who've rebuilt their life.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, they've leveraged some of what they learned from their gambling experience to do it in a way that they look back and they're actually really proud about, and they should be proud about this.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and people are really able to rebuild when they have the right system in place, when they can really activate and enter their recovery mode, they can build recovery experiences in such a compelling way that makes their life so much more beautiful as a result.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I've seen this and and this is what motivates me to do what I do as well, because I've seen people I've seen people overcome their gambling struggles and become the person that they deserve to be, that they know that they are capable of becoming.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's so important for me to help people recognize that what you've experienced in gambling, we can still leverage that and we can utilize the best parts of that towards rebuilding your life.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we said earlier, usually the gambling doesn't happen overnight.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: It takes minimum months, probably a few years for most people, where it really becomes a problem.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Rebuilding takes a long time as well.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: Rebuilding takes years.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Rebuilding takes a lot of effort and a lot of commitment.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes a lot of uh real diligence as well throughout that whole process.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: But again, how can we do that process unless we have resources in place, unless we have options there, unless we have accessible to us something that can help drive that process.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: And again, that's part of what I why I do what I do.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to build something that helps with recovery mode emerging.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for laying the groundwork, because I needed to have that.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is a newer topic for me.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I before we got into all the internet questions, we are going to shift to some quick questions here that are designed to challenge common misconceptions about gambling addiction.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And these are myth or fact.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: You up for it?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to gamble every day to be considered an addict, myth or fact.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Myth.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, for some people, the maybe who are experiencing it in the most severe uh form.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that's definitely the case.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: But for others as well, I mean, there are going to be certain days where you feel like, oh, I'm I'm in control.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like uh I don't need gambling.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then all of a sudden, it maybe does a snake attack on you.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: So uh definitely a myth.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is a production of recovery.com.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Getting help for an addiction or mental health concern is one of the best decisions you will ever make.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: But once you make that decision, it can be tough to know what to do next.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we built recovery.com.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the best place to find mental health and addiction treatment for anyone, anywhere.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how it works.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Search over 22,000 facilities, compare your options, and connect directly with treatment providers that meet your needs.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you need treatment that goes beyond an occasional therapy session, go to recovery.com.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Your recovery starts today.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact, gambling addiction is harder to spot than drug or alcohol addiction.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: More of a fact, uh, because you can hide a lot of it in your bank account.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um that being said, uh, my understanding is that for folks who have an alcohol or drug addiction, maybe uh a part of a part of that is also I'm trying to hide it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, but but I would say gambling is definitely harder to spot because you can hide the damage in your bank account a lot easier than you can hide physical uh displays of symptoms.
• 32:05
  unknown: Okay.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact, Doctor.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you stay at the table long enough, your luck is guaranteed to change.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Your luck is guaranteed to change in which direction?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because uh it could go, it could go if you stay at the table long enough, it's gonna go very bad for you.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: If you stay in the app long enough, it's gonna go bad for you.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and that's just by design.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's house edge, there's margins, there's uh there's profit built in for the industry that sees it itself play out over time.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: So if you stay in it long enough, you become the profit for the industry.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: That was an interesting flip on it.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: The brain of a gambler reacts to a near miss the same way it reacts to a win.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Fact.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh because the the and this is again part of the engineering side of how these things are designed.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because even with the near miss, you you put meaning to that.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: I oh, I was so close.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was so close to lining up, or I almost got it right.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then in the last moment, something happened in this match that did not did not need to happen.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: So that one one thing being different, and and people experience that in the same way as well.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm it's sort of it's it's it's still a form of win that's being experienced.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: And the brain sees it that way too.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So gambling addiction is a lack of willpower and it's being weak-minded, myth or fact.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh myth.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: For a lot of people, it's really about why urges exist, where these urges came from, and uh how they were built up over time.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of that, a lot of that is related to some of the things we've discussed already today.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: But um, when those urges are built up in a certain way, you have to know how to dismantle those urges.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: You have to know how to get to the root and the heart of what's actually going on when you have those urges in the moments that you have them.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: So um willpower alone isn't gonna be able to help you do that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: It requires a lot more of a dedicated approach.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: And do you need to learn that approach?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: You have to learn that approach.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's not something that's gonna be necessarily intuitive, like gambling has become.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but then again, gambling didn't necessarily start as intuitive either.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: You had to learn gambling too.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you have to learn recovery just like you have to learn gambling.
• 34:37
  unknown: Good point.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, myth or fact, doctor.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Giving an addict money to pay off their gambling debt helps their recovery.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's an interesting one.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um depends on where they are in their recovery.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because if we're just paying off debt to uh it could enable more gambling if there's not a real dedication to recovery.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: So if there is a real dedication to recovery, maybe helping pay off some debt could be beneficial, um, could could offer some relief, but also I'd probably see it the other way too, where uh having them be accountable to paying off their own debt um could be a big part of their recovery journey as well.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Online betting apps are designed using the same psychological tricks as slot machines.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: 100% fact.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: These traps are so sophisticated now.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they're so immersive and they're designed to be engaging so that so that you don't come off the app, so that you just keep going.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're not just dealing with internal psychological struggles when it comes to someone who's having a gambling problem.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: We're dealing with a whole system externally that's built around keeping you in this thing.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you made the point that you don't even have to initiate that connection.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to go looking for it.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of tapping you on the shoulder, it just pops up on your phone.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's so uh it's become so personalized now.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, I believe the best traps, or how if you think about mouse traps or rat traps, for example, like uh what I've noticed is they've seen seem to have outsmarted a lot of the traditional versions of traps, and the best traps are the ones that don't even look like traps anymore.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: The best ones are the ones that you just kind of find yourself in, and all of a sudden uh you're like, oh, what happened?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: And how am I here now?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: And fortunately for the gambling industry and related industries, they figured that out.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, for the people who are being consumed by that, um, they don't have the same access to what they need to really uh combat and overcome what what they're experiencing.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: People only get addicted to gambling when they are losing.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: People get addicted to gambling when they are winning and when they are losing.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's uh definitely a bit of both.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: But uh chasing losses, as we discussed earlier, is definitely one of the uh one of the most notable criteria when it comes to whether someone has a gambling problem or not.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: So the losses play a very big role in how someone approaches them.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: If someone just says, you know what, I accept these losses, it doesn't matter, I've learned my lessons here and I'm moving beyond this, that's a different story.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: But if I again attach a very specific meaning system to those losses, and then gambling factors into how I approach those losses, especially how I might be able to get those back, that's a different story.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: The suicide rate for people with gambling addictions is higher than any other form of addiction.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's a fact.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's a fact.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I uh it's devastating to know that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the suicide rate, I mean, it doesn't just include completed suicide, it also includes just suicidal ideation.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I tell you, when I was uh I like I mentioned, I used to work at a clinic, and most people that uh that were there, at some point they had thoughts about ending their life, even if they didn't act on it, because of gambling.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Gambling created that suicidal ideation.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: There's a direct link there.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: That is so scary.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Online searches for gambling addiction-related terms have surged in recent years across the US, mostly because online sporting betting was legalized.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna jump into some of the top searches on the internet.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the first is am I addicted to gambling?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I find out?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I just on a losing streak?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: If you're searching for that, you probably already, some part of you probably already knows the answer.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's probably part of your recovery mode, asking that question.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so if the consequences have caught up because of the losses, and you're starting to ask that question, and you're starting, usually when you ask that question, it's leading into the next one, which is what can I do about this?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: How can I actually address this problem?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: How do I stop gambling?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's when you know it's already gotten to that point.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are the official diagnostic criteria used to diagnose a gambling addiction or disorder?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, there's there's uh there's actually like uh nine specific criteria, and my memory won't be good enough to remember all nine in this moment, okay?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: But some of them include uh like uh being preoccupied with gambling here.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: So like always thinking about it, uh whether past bets or the next bet, um, and uh and uh chasing losses and needing more, needing to gamble with higher amounts of money to fill the same sort of rush, wanting to escape uh from the gambling and ironically using gambling to escape from it.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and then the consequences it has as well, not just uh on yourself, but also on the people around you.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that could be uh affecting relationships, uh family, it could be affecting career and job and study.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it could even be leading to things that you never thought that you could be doing, like borrowing money and getting into you know large amounts of debt because of gambling.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, a lot of these uh are criteria.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: But again, this is one where I'd say, you know, for anyone listening, best to go online and search for that yourself so you can see exactly what the criteria are.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh in order to meet the diagnosis, actually, you just need like a couple of those criteria over the course of like the last year.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh and then the more criteria you meet, the the the worse the problem obviously actually is.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but then the other thing I'll mention in relation to this is just other people being affected by gambling.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: They used to say for every person who has a gambling problem, it affects six other people in their life somehow.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Now they're saying it's like 10.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this is again, this is just we can't escape this.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no matter who you ask, everyone that I taught, they ask me what do I do?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I tell them about my work in gambling recovery support.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Tell them I'm a I'm a psychologist who's who's done this and and that.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then the first thing they tell me is someone that they know who's had a gambling issue.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone's got that story now.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just it's unbelievable what's happened, actually.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that was only over the course of a few years.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: And now look what technology has done to make gambling what it is.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very frightening because I I swear we're in a we're in a we're in an immersive gambling world right now.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like whether we know it or not, we are.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's just, it's just always present, always there, waiting for you to become ensnared in the trap that doesn't even look like a trap.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you can bet on anything.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: Anything.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: No, you can because of prediction markets.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: And again, prediction markets don't call themselves gambling, they call themselves a form of trading.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's a whole other conversation.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: It makes you feel smart and in control.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: It does, it does.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: It makes you feel like I'm not gambling.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I've even had uh clients we've worked with in recent times say the same thing.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, look, all of a sudden, uh I I'm on here and I'm trading, I'm doing something sophisticated.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I I'm uh I'm using my knowledge in a very impressive way, perhaps.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: And on those prediction markets, it's everything.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's it's politics, it's elections, it's uh it's wars, it's reality TV.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was well, I tell you what, I got uh I watched Survivor, and it's the only show that I watch uh regularly, and prediction markets spoiled for me the outcome.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: They actually had on there, like uh uh who had who had the the best odds of of uh of winning the season, and it was someone who was uh, I mean, the the difference between the the the what was the obvious winner and everybody else was so far, and I was like, well, that's spoiled for sure then.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: So even reality TV is part of that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's anything now, uh it's like our whole reality and existence is now a betting surface.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are there types of gambling that are more dangerous and addictive than others?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: The ones that offer uh more high speed options, like whether live betting in-game, things that are just immediately um accessible, the more money you can put down on it that don't have any caps.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say uh uh and and and like online slots definitely uh is one of those options.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: So you look at forms of online sports and online slots, those two probably uh among the most dangerous right now.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Another of the top searches on the internet.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are there stages or red flags that we can look for in ourselves or people in our lives that signal a progression of the disorder?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just unexplain uh if we're looking in others, just unexplained things, just oh.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Where were they at this particular time?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: And they seem to have some stories about it and it's not adding up.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and then they've got all these uh they're telling us all these things about money and where it's gone and this and that, and I'm not making sense of it the same way that they are, yet I'm still trusting them, uh, you know, what they're telling me because that's that's what I default to.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so unexplained things that are happening back to the person who's actually gambling, what are the signs you're looking for?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: Does this look like I'm actually in a relationship with gambling?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Do I feel like it's here to rescue me?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: Do I feel like in a weird way it's like in a toxic relationship here?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's like validating me, but it's also abusing me.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, these are some signs that that uh you should be looking for with gambling.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you stop gambling when you have lost everything that is way up in the searches?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: That may be the hardest question to answer of all, because a lot of what already exists when it comes to stopping gambling or reducing gambling or making it safer, or what they say is the responsible gaming in the responsible gaming space.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of that is about, oh, here's how uh we can we can get you in a self-exclusion program.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we can offer options for blocking, uh, you know, blocking your access to certain apps and websites.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we can help you set limits and we can do this and that.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: But ultimately, that's not how you stop gambling.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: That you can stop in those ways, but what that doesn't do is it doesn't stop the inner desire and the psychological pull and the meaning that you've attached to it that you developed over time and your experience with gambling.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say, like, there's uh this is a very hard one to answer because what people usually think about stopping the behavior isn't the same as changing the relationship with gambling or overcoming gambling at the level that they need to really rebuild their life.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: And and the way that I frame it is that it's one thing taking you out of gambling, taking you out of gambling might stop it to some extent, but it's probably more temporary because you can always find a way around it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: You can, you can, you can figure out ways around the blocking, you can even figure out ways around the self-exclusion.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's funny.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: I just read this on the on the news yesterday, in fact, in Pennsylvania, there were a few cases where people had self-excluded from venues, casinos, I believe, and then they went back to those casinos and then they actually won jackpots.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: They couldn't keep the money because they were self-excluded.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't actually get those wins, and not to mention, they were also issued trespassing citations uh as a result, you know, to the venue.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: So and they lost their money.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they and they lost their money to so whatever money that they thought they won, that they couldn't even keep that money anyway.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so self-exclusion is a funny thing because that's something that is uh within the within the space of the responsible gaming measures.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's it's also something that's usually uh directly connected to venues or to or to the products themselves, where they're the ones that are enforcing it.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: And whether they, I mean, just that alone tells you were they even enforcing it?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh they were they they started enforcing it when the person won money.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's when they started enforcing it.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: Why weren't they enforcing it before?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: How did the how do they get around it?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: And they always have their reasons, by the way.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: They'll they'll explain how their systems work, they're not optimized, this and that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: But somehow the systems are so optimized to keep people gambling, right?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh a lot of effort has been devoted there, and it's obviously had the uh had had the outcome that they desired in the end.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, and again, I'm I'm answering this question in a longer way because the the stopping part, that's one thing.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's a whole other thing, like taking you out of gambling.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing is this taking gambling out of you.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: That I believe is the bigger answer, is the more important journey that needs to happen to really overcome gambling, to really stop.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: And to meaning like to stay stopped, to feel like, hey, I don't need this anymore.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: It used to meet some needs for me.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: I used to rely on it.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: It used to feel like uh I could reverse things, that I I that I could uh be rescued by it, but now I don't feel that same way about it because I've taken gambling out of me.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that is more of the psychological, deeper inner work that needs to happen to really disentangle from the gambling relationship and to really build that recovery mode in someone's life that again that that kind of says that says goodbye in a way to the gambling, like like it is a toxic relationship partner saying, Hey, I don't need you anymore.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: No contact.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is it.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I saw the role that you played before, but truly I don't see you in my future, and I'm building a future without you.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: I I may have had, again, I probably learned a good number of lessons that I can leverage from those experiences to help rebuild my life, but not with you in it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: That being the difference.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how you stay stopped.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you get there?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a couple of minutes left.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a treatment center?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a therapist?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it uh gamblers anonymous?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things that you have found that are effective if somebody is ready to get the gambling out of them as opposed to just stop gambling?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: There definitely are existing options.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: There are there are also emerging options.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: So some of the existing options you mentioned, uh, some people will say gamblers anonymous was very helpful for them.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: The 12 steps was helpful for them to reach a certain point where their relationship evolved.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then others will say it's not for them.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: Others will say, I don't believe in the spiritual higher power stuff.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't fit with my worldview, doesn't fit with how I anticipate my recovery should be.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um definitely an option though.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: You have other uh options as well, like uh like uh traditional, more traditional therapy or counseling.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, some of that could be in the general mental health sense, others are more specialized in gambling.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: And we're seeing more of the specialized in gambling variety now available.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the specialized in gambling variety has uh follows more of the evidence-based uh treatments, modalities, and practices.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh some of those could be helpful in the short term.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, some of those practices and modalities maybe are not so helpful uh in the long term.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: So uh again, it's the important thing is kind of weighing each option, knowing what's available, weighing each option, looking at it more closely, uh, and making a decision based on what works best for you.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you've got uh other we already mentioned like uh blocking, yeah, blocking could be helpful.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: It adds friction.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're if you're blocking yourself through uh, for example, Gamban is a product that's available, you can actually block apps and websites and all of that in relation to gambling.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're blocking yourself and doing nothing else, you're not going to be changing the relationship.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're just changing your access.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: And you can easily remove that as well.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: You can remove those barriers as easily as you set them up.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: So so I think it's really important that when someone is going through a recovery journey, I see it as a journey of redemption and a journey of transformation.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: That we find the that we find something that allows that to happen.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I mentioned some of the emerging.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we have, for example, now you see uh what comes to mind is like uh telehealth versions that are available uh that are becoming more accessible and more um insurance compatible as well for gambling.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like Burchess Health is one that comes to mind.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they are more focused on providing licensed uh clinical care.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you've got other forms, such as what I'm the founder of, which is uh it's called uh a digital recovery support.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: So uh for gambling and maybe for other related behavioral addictions too.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: So uh uh Incumental is a platform that I've developed to help people uh really go through this journey at a deeper level, at a level where we can end up and say, yeah, my relationship with gambling has changed and I'm now in a gambling mode.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like gambling has been taken out of me.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: So and and we we definitely use evidence-based approaches, but we also use newer, more innovative approaches, um, including supplementing coaching with the use of an app that's always available, just like the gambling is always available.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it has it has uh sessions in there that are on demand, that are short form, that speak to the very things that are needed to overcome the gambling.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it in those moments you can actually be redirected back to, hey, I could be working on my gambling right now, right, and I know where that goes, or I could be working on my recovery, and I'm starting to get a sense of where that could go too.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually have some resources that uh you know new and emerging that are different.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: There are some other apps as well uh out there, uh, like eVive's another one that comes to mind.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: E V I V E.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, E V I V E.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a, and and again, um, there's there's definitely emerging ways.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think ultimately it comes down to a few things that we need to ask questions like this what actually works?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: How does it work?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and why is it a good fit for me?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's gonna be different for everybody.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: Some people will say, some people will say, you know what, I've been in gamblers anonymous for decades, and that is it for me.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: But saying it's it for you doesn't mean it's it for somebody else.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Understood.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: So again, gambling has a high level of personalization.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: Recovery also needs a high level of personalization.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we need to understand that um in order to really uh you know, to really make the differences and to really help the people in the ways that they need.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: The other question that I would recommend asking for people who are on this journey, whether they're at the start of it, in the middle of it somewhere, or even, you know, at the end of the journey, no matter where you are on this journey, I would ask this whatever options I might be considering, how is it funded?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning, where is the money coming from for those options?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is it funded by the gambling industry?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: Is it funded by something in between the gambling industry and that product or service?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason I say you should ask this question is because that influences how effective it could actually be.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is it is it designed to be only partially effective or is it designed to be fully effective?
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: My approach personally is we want a fully effective way of resolving this.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: We don't want some partially effective way, because the partially effective ways ultimately serve the industry interests.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: It serves their bottom line.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and again, I'm not saying that as in I'm I'm against that.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying it as in I'm for the people who need real options that are fully effective, not partially effective, playing some sort of responsible gaming, responsible gambling game.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like we're not playing a game here.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: We're these are real people's lives who are at stake, like literally at stake, in so many ways.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like the web of their life and how it connects to gambling, it's it's unbelievable to me how much people's lives are being destroyed by gambling right now in so many different ways.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: And for those who may be listening to this and thinking, oh yeah, that's not me, but that could be you.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: That could be you, and that might be you.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: And for some, that will be you.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what scares me because even for a lot of a lot of young men right now, they don't even realize the traps that they've found themselves in.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: The consequences will come later.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of young people, adolescents and kids, they're being exposed to things that they don't even understand yet.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that we don't and parents are worried about this, no doubt, but we don't even understand how that's gonna turn out because they're growing up in a world of gambling.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's their reality.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: What how is that gonna translate in the future?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Are we just trying to are we just trying to addict people?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is a question that I would ask too.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: But my my big bigger question is focused on recovery because ultimately there are people that are already suffering and struggling.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: And my goal is help them as much as we can.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, if we have frameworks, if we have models that not only have evidence, but that really work, because even the ones that have evidence, you have to ask, do they really work?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because evidence is reported in research, but reality is what what we should be looking at.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: Does it really work in reality, not just in the research?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the question that I would ask too.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: What works for you?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: How does it work?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Why does it work?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: Why will it work for you?
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Those are great questions.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: We will look into more treatment options.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: We will look into more about self-exclusion, uh, because we talked about it but didn't really define it.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: And continue this conversation when we come back in the next episode.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also be answering your questions, the very specific things that you are searching for related to gambling addictions when you go on the internet.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Zhang, thank you.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we will be back again with another episode next week.