Latest / Pursuit of Sassiness / A Club You Don't Want To Be In with Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio

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A Club You Don't Want To Be In with Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio · Pursuit of Sassiness

• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Hey, I do Part two. It's your celebrity mentors me,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Joan Vassos and Kathy Schwartz, And today we get to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: same club as us that no one wants to be
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: for people who have lost a spouse.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Joan and I we've both lost spouses. But it
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: feels a little different because our children were a little
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: bit older. But you know, it's still is club no
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: one wants to belong to. And today we are going
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: to chat with someone who is in that same group
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: with us. We all met Michael on Katie Thurston season
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: has a new children's book out that we also can't
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: wait to talk with him about.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: Hi Michael, Hi, thanks for having me on. Guys. You
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: look great and I'm so happy to be on here
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: and be able to chat with you guys about all
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: things and this dreadful club that we're all Yeah.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me, since we are all members of
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: this club, tell us about your late wife Laura and
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: what she was like.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: I appreciate that question too. I met Laura when I
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: was eighteen. I was a freshman in college. She was
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: a senior in high school on a college visit, and
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: I saw her from across the quad walking around campus
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: and I told her, no joke. I said, if you
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Bumps.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: And this is without Facebook, this is without I didn't
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: the cafeteria the following fall and lived up to my promise.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: So we were together for sixteen years. We had all
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: life smilestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together,
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: and had a kid, James, And when we welcomed him
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: into the world, we had about seven seven months a
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually stopped
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: taking milk from one side at Laura's breast, and that's
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: how we found it. And so it went from all
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: as it often does with any diagnosis sets out there,
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: and it was a wild ride. She passed away in
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: two thousand and nineteen, when James was two and since
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: then been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: gorgeous girlfriend Jade, who's just been such a blessing in
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: our life. But life is crazy, and as you both
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: know very well, you can have as many plans as
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: you want. Life doesn't necessarily care and sometimes we're left
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: to pick up the pieces and find our way back.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: about being a father of a young child. I know
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: my kids were grown, my last, my youngest, my fourth
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: was in college when John passed away, so I know that,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I'd like to hear about, like the way you processed
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: your gree if you have a young child, did you
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: have time to process your group grief for has that
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: been like really delayed and coming in to focus now,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe a little later in life.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: I think that it's a great question, and I think
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: grief often gets this broad brushstroke. You know, we all
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: and none is better, less painful than the other. They're
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: all different and we can see benefits and we can
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: learn lessons throughout the whole thing, But it doesn't take
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: away the challenge and the pain of trying to find
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: And you know, with with James and with my own
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: I really just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver,
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: I mean that teaches you first and foremost that you
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: have to be the rock. You have to be able
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: to serve like you have. You can't put your fears
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: on somebody else, even though they are so present. You
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: have to get them to the next scam or the
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: felt like for me, the same thing was true about grief.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: I really had to run into just being a single dad.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, our goal was to have a child together,
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: to raise James together, and when after she passed, I
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: was really nervous because I was like, do I have
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: grief going to define me? And also my son? And
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: I always have this fear of I think every parent does,
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: where the actions that you have as a parent they
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: make such an impact on a child that it's like,
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: is this going to affect so many generations, and so
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: it has to be handled with so much care, is
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: so much pressure, and so you know, I always tried
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: to walk that balance with my son on grief and
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: allowing him to be a kid, while still allowing that
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: space for us to be able to talk about his mom,
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: even though he was so young when she passed.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware my husband
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: died by suicide also in twenty nineteen.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry to hear that key.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that, But I wanted to just get back
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: lost your spouse's to illnesses where there were doctor's appointments,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: you had time to prepare, if that's even a thing. Yeah,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: and so I've often people ask me about my grief journey.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: As you said, Michael, grief is grief, and we all
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: experienced it differently, and you have to walk through grief
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: to get to the other side. You know, you can't
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: very curious how grief. I still have moments when I
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: have just the grief washes over me, And I just
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: lose your spouse.
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: Do you want to take that at Joan or you
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: want me to?
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I know you and I have talked about this, which
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: we were going to do maybe a little something together
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to talk about things just like this, because people don't
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: because you've experienced like intense grief. But I'll tell you
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I was in denial, to be perfectly honest, which was
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: so naive of me. But I kept thinking John was
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: such a healthy man. And you probably thought the same
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: thing about Laura, like how could she not be here,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: you know, for the rest of our kids' lives. And
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: so John went from weighing like two hundred pounds two
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: hundred and ten pounds, and I still in my mind
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: thought he was going to live. And it was so
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: like I was in such denial that when he passed away,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I think I was in chalk for like a year.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: I just was surviving. I just one foot in front
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: of the other. How about you, Michael. I wonder how
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: you did it. I know you couldn't just put one
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: foot in front of the other. You had to raise
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: a kid, right, Yeah.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I I we rang the bell twice,
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: you know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan,
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: that as caregivers we never give up hope. But there
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: was a there was a time when, I mean I
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: knew enough about the cancer and everything where it had
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: spread to a different part in your body, and I knew,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: and I could see it in the doctor's eyes that
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: it was that it was uphill. And so I even
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: hope to the last day, kind of searching, searching for
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: a miracle.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I have
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: talked about this. I was in denial after my husband died.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I was going to wake up and he was going
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: to be there. And my children were obviously much older
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: than your son, James, Michael, but and yours world er.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Too, Joan. But you still have those family.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Issues and the grief that just permeates transcends everything, regardless
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: of the age of your children.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: So it's just interesting.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: two things are true at the same time, and all
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: things are true at the exact same time. I mean,
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: I used to think that grief was about hurting less
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: and over time I've learned and that it is really
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand.
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift,
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: and it's grief is a gift because I loved everything
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: that Laura gave me, the memories, James, I mean sixteen years.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: We built a life together in many ways, the things,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: the habits that I have or habits that we developed together,
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: and it was it was one of those things where
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: after she passed away, I was I was just really
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: really lost on who I was, what my identity was.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: Am I capable of this all of the all of
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: the things that maybe I took for granted that she did.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I just love that you like you talk about the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: habits that you formed because you were together for so long,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: I was together with John for two years, and I
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: didn't know how not to be a couple. All of
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: and I hadn't been that way for so long, and
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how to do it. I'm still not sure.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: have chalk, obviously, but like he's not the father of
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: my kids. And we don't have like a lot of
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: couple friends together because we don't live near each other.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: And I have a couple of friends that I developed
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: from my kids were really really little, and we raised
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: our children together. And then all of a sudden, I
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: was like, suddenly not part of this group. Because couples
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: like to exist with other couples exist with singles, and
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: you become this island.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: And you're out.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: My experience was I also met my husband. I was
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: had just turned to eighteen when I met him. I
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: met him the first day of college and I looked
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: across the room and I told my I love that.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: did and we were together, almost married almost forty six years.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: So for me, for me, this journey of rediscovering who
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I am. I had to learn from the get go
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: because I was married when I was twenty years old.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's ridiculous, and it's you know, regardless of
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: growing into one. Yes, yeah, I think that's actually a
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: very healthy thing where it's too You maintain your individuality,
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: of course throughout the course of a marriage, but you
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: can't help but morph into each other. And I've had
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: so many conversations with widowers and widows about this, and
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: everybody's situation is so different, so some people would say, man,
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: yours is the worst. Michael James was so young, But
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: here I didn't have to have the same of conversations
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: that you did Kathy like or you did Joan because
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: your kids were older and and very he passed away.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: My my biggest thing always was like, how can I
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this?
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: How how can I learn tools that I wasn't born with?
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: But I need to adopt immediately so that this doesn't
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: create a psychopath that blamed, that blames tragedy for everything
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: that happens in his life. He'll he'll be ten in
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: in September.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: So he was how old when when Laura passed too?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that there's like a big
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: it's a weird scale because you think, Okay, James isn't
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: missing his mother like the person that he probably does
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: hard remembers, correct, But then you have the job of
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: reminding him and keeping her memory alive, because there is
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: going to be a day maybe when he's fifteen or sixteen,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: or seventeen or eighteen or some time in the near future,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: that he's going to want to know about his mom.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like really good.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: It's this balance between very much keeping her alive and
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: not making him feel pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: I've seen I've seen a lot of people make mistakes
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: about kind of they're they're so anxious about making sure
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: that young, they're not going to remember. None of us
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: remember anything when we were two and so and so
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: one of the reason ways I kind of bring that
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: up is is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah,
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: you know, I'll let him know that he is very
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: much a part of her. He'll laugh he does. He's
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: incredibly books, which she was and I wasn't. And so
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: I'll say, you know, that reminds me just that your
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: mom and then that that facilitates a conversation not you know,
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: do you remember, Yeah, all of this because you know,
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: I don't want the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: he may he or she may have forgotten.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the and that grief is different, you know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the missing somebody intensely, that grief, Like I wake up
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: in the middle of night still feeling that. I think
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I feel that, you know, thank god he doesn't feel that.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: but they John so now. So they're now thirty six,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: thirty five, thirty two and turning thirty on tomorrow, actually
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the day after tomorrow, so you know, so John's been
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: gone for six years, press so you know, Luke was
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: just get out of college, and like they have all
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So that's like a little bit of a different kind
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: of grief. Like You're son is going to realize. I'm
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: sure he already does that. All of his friends have
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: a mom and he doesn't. My kids all like see
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: their all their friends have a dad, and you know
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: they need their mentoring and they don't have a dad
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: two girls, and the boys really feel.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: It, you know, hats hats off to our club, right
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: like I. You know, I am. I have to apply
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: and I think I'm going to speak for you guys
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: and too, because I can feel it. We have to
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: apply some sort of purpose to it, and we have
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: to extract lessons from what life has given us or
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: else it's all in vain and it's not toxic positivity.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: so close with death. Like I think, if prior to
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: death and it being a part of our life and
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: being on the oncology floor and all of that for
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: two years talking with people living it, breathing it, I
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: think if you would ask me what do I want
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: in my life in order to be happy? I would
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: have had a hard time with that. But if you
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: were to ask me what do I don't want to
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: what don't I want to regret in my life? I
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: can answer that now, because when you talk to people
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: at the end of their life, when you walk the floor,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: when you speak with people of age, they will tell
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: you all the things that they regret, and it's the
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so yes,
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: I am burdened. I carry grief. I carry that pain
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: every single day, and the second I think I made
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: sense of it, I wake up in the morning and
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: of grief, and it provides for us. We don't create
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: our own problems as much anymore because we know what
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: real problems are and it allows us to just, I
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: don't know, a structure a life that we can be
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: proud of.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Sounds like that you channeled your grief into writing this
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: book and it's going to help other people. So you've
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: found a purpose at least, you know, in the time being.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I would love to hear more about your book, Where
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the Wild Heart Grows. What made you write a book
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: just like this?
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: It's about growing up, it's about growing old. It uses
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: And there's seven an interconnected story is it's very old world.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter, and so
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: we did thirty five illustrations the old school way to
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: try to slow down time, to try to teach kids
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life,
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: new growth, and that there's so much by just observing
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: nature that we can learn about our own life and
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: all that growth that happens, and all that's uncomfortable.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: I have to say. I read the advanced copy. The
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: illustrations are incredib I think you have a call Decott.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Winner on your hands here. Thank you, but I cannot believe.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And I want about fifteen copies because we'll get back
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: to the second art, sort of dealing with grandchildren on
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: all this grief and loss that we're talking about.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: But in your.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Book you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: love one of the lunch you had, wild, the wild
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: beauty of everyday moments, And that is exactly what that book,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: to me represents, slowing down and seeing the beauty in
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: everyday moments.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book.
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: These are seven stories that James hands selected. I actually
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: wrote thirty five of them all in the sure so
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: he han't selected some of some of them. He's like, yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: that's not that's not making the cut, and I'm like, oh,
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: everyone's a chrismal, right, there really is. But I really
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: book for? And I always have a tough time putting
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: it in parameters because I have this idea and I'm
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: just deep help belief that the basic things that we
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: learned as kids we have forgotten as adults. And when
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: when you were talking with a child, when you're talking
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: with anybody, if you begin to lecture to them, they
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: begin to put up their walls, their ego starts coming up,
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: they start defending, and that's not me or they pull away.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: And for me, I noticed that with James early on.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: It was the whole how is your day? It was good?
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: What you do? Nothing? Nothing, you're feeling I'm fine, And
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through,
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: whether or not you're growing up or growing old. And
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: it is the courage to begin again. There's a story
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: about us. There's a story about a spider.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Whose web keep I'm sitting here right there. I took
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: a picture of that quote, honestly because it resonated so much.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I have it right here. I'd love to read it
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: so the audience knows what we're talking about, because I
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: think it talks about us, It talks about your son,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: It talks about so many people, probably not just us.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And it says, maybe strength isn't in the web, Maybe
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: whether it's you know, starting in a life without a spouse.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you know not many people have to experience that,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: but even in like losing a job or losing your home,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: there's you know, we're all going to experience some place
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: where you have to find stre to begin again.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: I love that Joan, and it's spot on because even
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: in that story, someone asked, the spider's so upset that
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: its web keeps falling down, and then it's asked, you know,
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: tell me about the first web you ever made, and
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: it didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah, And that's really
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be,
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: and we are forced to have the courage to begin
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: again and start.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Leaving while we're sitting here giving our quotes. I think
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: it is for children. What matters is not clinging to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: what was, but trusting what will be. I read that,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I thought, I have never met you before today, and
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I thought, thank you that just reading that quote gives
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: me hope. It's what will be, you know, one foot
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: in the past, never forgetting, and moving forward and looking
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: towards the future.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: So thank you for that quote as well.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: it's lessons we can all pull from at any point
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: in our life, no matter what we're going through.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: you think, because you wrote this book sort of to
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: help you talk to James about these things, or that
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: was one of the reasons, how do you think this
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: will help children to comprehend grief and loss?
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I again, I think it's grief, it's loss,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: it's growing, it's it's it's courage, it's it's friendship, it's kindness,
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: it's all of those things. When kids are going through
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: and they feel lost, to recognize that in that stillness,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: that in that area where we feel like we're not developing,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: that our roots are growing, that growth is happening even
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: when we can't feel it. And I always have this
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: idea of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: the nursing home when I'm you know, ninety years old
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home. See
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: my grandma and I look in these rooms and they
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: are people with real stories, you know, people with lives
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: well lived. And the one thing you notice is that
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: they jump out of their seat as fast as they
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: can when they see a young child, and you start
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: to look at them and their phones not ringing, and
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: if I were to go talk to any of those
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: people that are sitting in their room, that they would
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: transport to the hardest time in their life, the time
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: in our life that we are so excited to try
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: to get out of. Yeah, And it's like, this is life.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: something down the road to fulfill you, you're gonna miss it.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: And so it's it's this really this call to be
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it, because,
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: believe it or not, the worst time in your life,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: one day, you're gonna miss it. You're going to miss
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: the lessons it taught you.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I love that. I like living in the present is
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: so hard, but I think we all learned a lesson
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: because our future was kind of taken away from us,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and that was like the biggest thing for me if
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: there was this black hole ahead of me now and
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't have a future, And to learn how to
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: live in a present so I don't miss that so
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: much has been such a gift. And so when you
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: the biggest one that I took from this. Like living
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: in the moment a lot more.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and allowing yourself to mess up, allowing your allowing
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: to others in any form or fashion, and to give
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: yourself permission to just be yourself. I fear for our
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: kids living in the digital age with social media, that
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: what makes them special is uted and it's going to
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: there's a story in this book about the dancing Dandelion
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: and people. People can read all about it, but it's
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching, because
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: you have something to offer this world, even though people
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: may judge you, laugh at you. The worst thing any
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: of us could ever do is to silence our gift
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: just because we're trying to fit.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: In we kind of touched on this a little bit
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we've all
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: feel that sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: But now that you are kind of seven years out,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I'm sure your grief is very different than it was
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: when it first occurred. What things are you processing now?
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: And I'd love to hear these things from you because
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like when you say them, it kind of
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: solidifies them, like this ideas that are my head. You're
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: hear what you're processing seven years later.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Gratitude.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I am seven years out. That was when you asked
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: that question, John, I knew you asked it to Michael.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: every sunrise, every's continue on, Michael.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: But please please keep talking. I want to I want
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: to hear what you have to say.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Well, no, it's just that I when we talk about
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: walking through grief, and I think the biggest thing that
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: my husband's death taught me was many of the things
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you've said, Michael. But enjoying every moment being it is
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: it be, you know, being kind, being present, all the
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: things that you've been talking about, really taking time to
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoying my great.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: The little things that were so busy.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And scheduled that when my husband died and it was
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: left unseat, so many things that were left undone. So uh,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: have three children, and I really try to soak up
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: every minute of my life their life.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: And you you know, we won't regret that. And I
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: is is also just relief that I'm here because there
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: was a time when I grief was so heavy. I
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: didn't know who I was going to become after this.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: I didn't know how it was going to change me.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: to make me hard and hate the world for what
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: it did and questioning God and do all of those things.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: And instead it has allowed me to really appreciate the
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: I'm so happy to see James running the front door
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: from the school bus, completely bypass me and run into
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Jade's arms.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Oh I love that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Can we talk a little bit about Jade?
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: So absolutely?
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: So I know that she's moved in with you.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: I'm curious how you met, how that whole evolution has
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: taken place, that she is now integrated into your life.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: And as you say, you can still hold Laura and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: more than one person at once.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: But I'm oh, absolutely, And I think if any listeners
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: are are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: But I think a lot of people will tell you
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: it exists, and just give it. Give it time you're ready,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: don't rush into anything. But after I got off the
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: She reached out and we never had like a romantic relationship.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: me what I've been through. And we found just through
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: that a long mutual friendship, long distance. And she was
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: in Hollywood, in West Hollywood doing her own thing, and
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: could there be something here? But look, you're across the
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: across the country. I'm in akron Olisle and I'm not
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: laving so over time. This was about about two years ago.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: We met up in LA when I was out there,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: and I saw her again and it was almost like
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: It was it was and I was so so happy
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: that I felt that again. Yes, And if you would
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago,
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: I would have said, I that feeling's gone. It's gonna
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: have to feel so different now. But that's the only
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: each other and developed that relationship and then, yeah, it
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: took the plunge two years or she's been here for
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: two years. And integrating a family is a challenging thing.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, Why
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: won't you marry this woman already?
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: And it's all these things, And the truth is is,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm probably going to I'm going to do.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: You want more children?
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: So we've talked about that. Originally I wanted three, and
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: now I'm forty two.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm exhausted, like I mean, trust me, Michael, it
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: gets worse.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: Oh oh oh, I know, I know, But the last
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: decade has been a tough one on this guy in
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: every which way. Just being mom, being dad, managing careers,
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: doing all of this, making sure you're present is exhausting.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: And he is. He's so enough and so like right now,
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: it's a season of first because I've never been able
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: to raise James alongside somebody, so I don't have the
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: every day. I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: great to have somebody who we can capture memories together
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: with and we can share all of those life moments
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: with and after he goes to bed, we can talk
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: in bed about where what we did right, what we
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: did wrong, you know, all of those things that just
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: I don't know, just make it all worth it.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: I love. I would have loved to have been a
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: fly on the wall when you first introduced this concept
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to James about you dating someone, and I'm sure you
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: would have never done unless you had known this was
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: like maybe your person, and so probably didn't have it
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: until you met Jade. I would love to know what
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: you said to James, How did you introduce this concept?
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I've it's always I mean, I'm not
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: gonna I'm not gonna lie. It's always been a tricky
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: thing because James and I have developed i mean, were one.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: He's known, you know, me and him in this house
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: and that's it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: Eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge,
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: and it's going to be uncomfortable, and what we're all
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: going to find out is that it's not as hard
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: as we think it is. And I think that that
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: message is so true for starting again after loss, about
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: imagining what's it going to be like going on that
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: first date, What's it going to be like driving to
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: someone that's not my husband, What's it going to be
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: like when those inside jokes that we shared and those
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: memories that we always talked about at dinner are no
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: longer remembered by the person I'm now dating. They smell different,
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: they look different, they're all these things and you just
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: have to have to begin knowing that it's a process,
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: and as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding,
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: taking time, knowing that there's love kind of bring it
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: people will just I think avoiding the conversations is the
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: worst thing. I think. I think kids can handle a
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: resilient and more understanding and have less biased than adults
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: have developed over the years. So that's been my experience.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: But I if that comes across like I am an expert,
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: I am far from that. It is it is. It
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: has been a journey.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you you've done it well.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: So Joan.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: It's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: to another woman.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Joan.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: You and I both have grandchildren, and in both of
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: our cases are our husbands never got to spend meet
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: or spend time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: Joan, congrats, thank you.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: It's such a blessing. But you're right, Kathy. You know,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I think about when I asked you the question of like,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: what are you processing now? Seven years later, my thought
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: but really, my first thing that came to my mind
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: is life isn't fair, and that's how these big moments.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: would have loved that sunset. He love sunsets, and I'll
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: see the beautiful sunset and all it makes me sad.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Even though I'm happy I'm seeing this beautiful sunset, I
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: he doesn't get.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: To share it.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And it's even you know, even more magnified with things
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: like big, like big life events. So when my John
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: actually did see one of our grandchildren get born and
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: he got to walk one of our two daughters down
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the aisle, so he did experience those big moments. But
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: you know, life keeps moving on, and that's what makes
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: me the sadest.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: I think I picked up a little bit when you're going, Kathy,
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: which was experiencing first yeah and having having say chalk
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: and you be able to experience all these first with
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: with grandkids. And I know for a fact, and I'll
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: I'll just say this is one of the hardest things
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: in the world, which I never would have predicted, was
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: sharing James with somebody else and That's the weirdest thing
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: because the entire time while I'm grieving, I am like, God,
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: can I just find somebody to share him with. When
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: violation or al or something like that. And then again
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: and over time it starts to feel less like that
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: and more normal and all of that.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: So I get that, and so for me it's a
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: flip side.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that. You know, my husband, I have
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: the aisle for her wedding. These adorable granddaughters that I have,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: he saw one for.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: A few months.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: But those things, I feel compelled to be the grandmother,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: the grandfather, to give my grandchildren the memories that you
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: of the next generation of that makes sense.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And playing those dual roles is tricky, and you know,
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of responsibility and weight that we put
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: and really all we have to do is just be
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: just be ourselves, because that's that's so enough. I mean life,
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is dark,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: life is all those things. But if you are able
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: to just understand that the dark seasons in your life
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass.
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: There's light at the end of that tunnel. It could
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: be grandkids, it could be finding new love, it could
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: you know, just who knows. Like, let's let's stop trying
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: to plan everything.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as your story says, the acorns fall to the ground,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: but in the spring, new leaves come out.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: I just they always they always do. There's the whole
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: idea like behind the book too, was I was looking
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: outside of my window in my bedroom and I was
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: looking at this tree. And this tree has been in
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: my backyard forever and it was during the first year
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: that Lore passed, and I felt like I have one
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: of those moments where I watched this tree through all
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: four seasons and you know, it's growing new leaves, it's
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: turning you know, amber and an orange, leaves are falling
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: and all that, and I was just wondering, does the
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: tree worn? Is the tree grieving? You know, does does
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around. Does
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: or nourishment or shade. But it's like no, Like trees
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: are wise. They understand that they have to let go
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: in order to allow for new growth, and they it's
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: the moment, we've all been through these cycles before, they
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: you going to do with your life? Who are you?
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: What are you going to become? Where are you going
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: to live? How much money are you gonna make? What
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am,
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: nothing but questions ahead. And it's like we've gone through
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: and that's that's like all lie this are these seasons
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: of turning the page and allowing things to let go.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: of John's death. He died on January eighteenth, and I
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: went to the cemetery and I happen to be alone
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: that day. My kids had gone the day before, and
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I went by myself, and I thought, for the first time,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I felt like he wasn't part of our life, that
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: life had moved on enough that like the light that
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: we are creating now would have been foreign to him.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: All.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: You know, three of the four kids are married. We at
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: that point, I had three grandchildren. Now I have five
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: as of like two days ago, and that like all
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was I got really worried that
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I was going to his memory was going to fade
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: as a new memories backfilled. And I think that's been
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: the scariest thing for me. And I'm like still really
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: resistant of it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: And that's why I think personally, people hold on to
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: connection to the ones of And when that pain starts
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: to go away, well, I should say, the pain ends
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: up defining the only thing that connects you and your
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: loved one, and so it feels like it's getting more distance,
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: but in fact you're still carrying it. It's just redefining
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: itself and it's it's becoming something else, and you're allowing
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: doesn't always feel that way.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think for me, my kids again, seven years out,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: now we can laugh about some.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Of the things that went on life.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: We can bring back those memories and the pain, as
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: you said, Michael, is still there, but it has receded
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: some because there are other parts of joy, whether or
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: not he can share in them. My kids and I
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: can look at life that we have now and again
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: be so grateful for what we have while still saying
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: you know, oh, what would your dad say about this?
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: And it brings smiles to our faces. Now the pain
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: is still there, but you know it pain, the grief
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: ebbs and flows. And I love the fact that, again,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: different generation, but you have James to walk hand in
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: hand with you through this grief and the love for
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Laura while still building this new life for you.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: And I have the same with my children.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's the way I feel like we're always in
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: this mentality that there's limited space and and and they're
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: they're like if if I ended up having a second child,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: I would love that kid just as much as James,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: and like it's expansive, and so it's like, let's let's
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know, like they,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love,
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: just like Joe and your family's growing. And it's like
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: you thought you were at your macs of love until
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: those grandkids entered the world. And it's like, let's quit
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: Let's just keep watering.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: It just flow with like is somebody I always So
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I have this thought in my mind and I don't
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: know if you two have it. Also that John sends
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: me signs sometimes when I need them. So Father is
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: a really hard day for us normally, well this year,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna cry talking about this. My oldest son,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: who misses his father so much, got to be a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: dad and it was early that they became Early, I
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: felt like John sent us somebody to be happy about.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys,
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: and how happy that makes me feel, because like that's
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: that's the that's the life right. It takes away and
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: it allows for a new life to come into your world.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: And it's such a it's such a beautiful thing. I'm
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: so happy for it.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I get the same thing my daughter the other day,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: uh said, some things went on in her life, and
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: she told me after the fact, she said, Dad, I
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: need a sign. I need a sign. And she said
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: was was sort of one of our things, came and
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: just sat on her shirt.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean I love that.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Do you ever get any signs from Laura?
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: Oh, geez, I mean all the time. I mean, James
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: is a walking sign. I mean, for one, I'm telling
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: nature versus nurture nature. It's nature like he laughs, like her.
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: His anxiety is like her, His like OCD organizational type
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: A behavior is identical to her. It's it's unbelievable. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: I have this like, I have this faith right that
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: I know for certain that we're all going to see
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: them again. So from now until then, it's just time.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: It's just time. And you know what, we've done a
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: good job of We've done a good job of creating
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: the most ridiculous story be able to share with them. Guys,
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: The Bachelor, The Bachelor at the most wild thing that
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: was never in our plans at all.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Let's let's not forget paradise, Michael, you, let's not forget
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: paradise bathing suits.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: So I got to hand to you, guys, I've.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: Got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: for the rest of my life.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: On that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that you know, I'm proud of us for
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: doing that, for still having that like zest for life
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: and desire to not sit still. And if people are
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: sitting still after lost, I'm not judging that. Take your time.
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: I did it too, everybody's done it. But I'm I'm
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: proud that the courage that it took to just get
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: out there and try something just completely.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like, yeah, thinking, like,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: am I like not respecting his memory by going on.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: You know, the judgments everywhere?
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought that I'm going to get that.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: And then I said that to a friend of mine ago,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not really He had offered it to me, and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: go and do it. I you know, are people going
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: to think I don't like I still love him like that,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: I could that I could move on, And am I
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: not respecting that memory by doing something like so big
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: And my friend said, oh my god, you're being ridiculous.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: gregarious person in the world. And I'm like, oh my god,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: he would love She's right, he would have loved this.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: So I was like, literally that moment I made the decision,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like, he loved this. I'm not not respecting him.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 50:42
  Speaker 5: I have a lot of questions one day, want too, Yeah,
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: so my husband, because you know, obviously, this is nothing
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: any of us would have done had we had we
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: and having to build a new life.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: But for me, it was very life affirming.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: The whole experience of Bachelor's life affirming, and frankly, all
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: three of us are people that are building lives through
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: the grief.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: We are finding.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Ways with our families to love life and love each
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: other and love others.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: And who could ask for more?
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: Right that's it exactly.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: And with that, if.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Someone is listening right now and they have a friend
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: that this has helped you.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: This podcast has helped you.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: And you can also get Let's tell everybody where you
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: can get Michael's book where the Wildheart Grows on the
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Wildheart Grows dot com. Is that right, Michael?
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we decided to sell online The Wildheart Grows
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: dot Com. You can order it there. Shipments are going
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good,
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: it's so beautiful. I'm sad now that like I'm not
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: creating it anymore, and now it's out into the world
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: volume two.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Here you got stories waiting in the background.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned.
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: And I appreciate you guys having us on. I could
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: do this all day.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we could.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: You are an amazing, amazing man, and your stories are incredible,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: both the ones in the book and your life story
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: that you were sharing with us today.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: It's a comedy, isn't it.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: You've made us laugh.
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: Thank you Yeah, you too.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: So are you like us and have lost a spouse,
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: need some help.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: the info is in the show notes. Follow us on
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: socials too, Please
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: love is the main objective.