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Power, Protest, and Trust in a Fractured Democracy · Bourbon & Rum

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No matter what you think, if something that's going on with
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law enforcement, I think bad things happen if you get too
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close to the fire. What about protesting and how do
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you express that? I I think that the protests
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that's, that's the most fundamental form of patriotism.
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I need the right to Harry A9 carry a 9mm so I can fight
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against a oppression oppressive government I've always thought
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is kind of ABS argument because my 9mm not going to get me too
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far with a Hellfire missile. Welcome to Bourbon and Rum, the
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podcast dedicated to civil conversation.
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I'm Kent, I like rum and I'm from the left side of the aisle.
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And I'm Kyle. I like bourbon.
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I tend to be a little more conservative.
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We're brothers talking politics for bourbon and rum.
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What are you drinking? I'm late, we're laid up here in
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the snow. Well OK, I should, I should
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preface that by saying we had about 3 inches of snow and we
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they've now first they canceled school on Monday, now they've
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canceled school on Tuesday. I've driven around like 4 times
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today. It's a pleasure to drive because
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nobody is on the road. And literally, I mean, if this
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snowed in like where we grew up in Michigan, there's not enough
1:25
snow to plow yet. Everybody is petrified to be on
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the road. So I'm pulling out the good
1:31
stuff. I am drinking some Elmer T Lee
1:34
single barrel bourbon. Elmer T Lee is a whiskey, a guy
1:38
that actually founded Blanton's bourbon, so and they made a
1:43
whiskey about him. I don't know, they started
1:47
making this 20-30 years ago. It's really hard to find, but
1:49
it's really smooth. It's mash bill #1 the same as
1:54
Buffalo Trace or Eagle Rare, but it's really tasty, really
1:59
smooth. What do you want?
2:01
I've got a a very tropical rum punch made with cruise and black
2:08
strap. It tastes kind of like the kind
2:10
of thing that I was drinking in the islands and it's like, I
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guess it's warmed up. It's a toasty 4° here today and
2:19
I wish I was back in Grenada, honestly.
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So. How much snow did you guys get?
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None. We didn't get any snow at all.
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We may be a skiff of just enough to cover the sidewalk, but it's
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just been cold. It's cold and clear here.
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Bright sun. Coldest we had.
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It was the car you know, which is no wind chill for the
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uninitiated. My card, my dashboard
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thermometer had it 16 below when I showed up at work on Friday.
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So. Yeah, Here in Dallas, it got to
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10, which is this morning. That was, it's cold for us.
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Well, what's going on? Nothing's going on in the world.
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Yeah. Well, we're we're recording on
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Sunday, January 25th. We're kind of still in the
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aftermath of the most recent shooting in Minneapolis, kind of
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a Full disclosure thing. That situation is close to me.
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I don't want to divulge any more of the, of the specifics, but I
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feel pretty invested in that it, it cuts really close to home.
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And I, you know, I, I think it's, look, even people that
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disagree with me have been clear about conceding that it's an
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awful thing. But I guess rather than
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dwelling, I mean, we can talk about, but rather than dwelling
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on the thing, like what, what, what does this mean?
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And where do we go? And how do we, how do we move
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forward as a nation in this? So that's my that's my opening
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take. Yeah, no, I agree.
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It's a it's, you know, somebody gets up in the morning and, you
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know, they need to be able to make it home.
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We don't need people getting shot.
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I think I don't know. I, you know, I, I do think of
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that and I would certainly tell my children and anybody close to
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me that no matter what you think, if something that's going
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on with law enforcement, it's not a group that I think bad
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things happen if you get too close to the fire.
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And I feel like people need to be careful.
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And I don't mean that like, like, you know, protests are
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great protests all you want, but you know, if there's five guys
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and they're, they're carrying weapons and they're carrying out
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some type of action, give them some space.
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Because I and I, and I'm not saying like they've got a right
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to do anything or like in this case, you know what turns out if
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this was an unlawful action or lawful or whatever, but I just
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think you stay away from that situation.
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You're going to be a lot better off.
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I think that I, I, I hear you on that.
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And I guess I want to, you know, one of the things I wanted to
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explore was a little bit of a confession of my own part.
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When I first, my first flash that I heard, I think it was a
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notification of my phone and it came across something like this.
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A guy was shot in Minneapolis. He had a 9mm handgun with two
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magazines and was pointing it at police or something or at ice
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and was and was shot. And in that moment, I kind of
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discounted it. I was kind of like, well, look,
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you know, kind of to your point and you're not wrong, but and I
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don't know what the antecedents or the run up to this was.
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I'll, I'll tell you the gun thing is a complete red herring
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in this. And it, it just, it just goes to
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show you. I mean, I, I think that it's
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pretty incontrovertible. The the tapes that I've seen,
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you know, they, they pulled the gun out of his holster after
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they shot it. And this doesn't rebut your
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point about, you know, don't stand in front of people who are
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moving with guns and body armor, except what about protesting And
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how do you express that? I I think that the protest
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that's that's the most fundamental form of patriotism.
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That's people expressing their opinion.
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I don't know what where the line is between peaceful protest and
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got in the way. The part I struggled with this
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and I thought about this a lot, but it's like, what are you
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protesting in that moment? They're carrying out an arrest
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of somebody with a criminal record.
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I don't think that's a hill you want to die on.
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I mean, if if it's they sent ICE agents to Minnesota, to your
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point, and you're what you've said and a lot of people said,
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well, this is to go stir up trouble in Minneapolis.
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Your problem isn't with these five guys that are carrying out
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an arrest warrant. Your problems with the people
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that sent them there. You know, so that's the part I
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struggle with. Like, you know, I get that
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people disagree with crap and they're going to go protest it,
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but like you got to be smart about it.
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You can't put yourself in a situation, number one, that
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doesn't there's not, not a it's like a no win situation.
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I, I don't know. I it's.
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Yeah. Whether you have a positive, I
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guess my point is whether I think cops and law enforcement
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are good or whether I think they're really bad, I'm going to
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treat them with a level of respect just because they're all
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the ones carrying guns. And gosh, I know you, you know,
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you'd even talked about like protesting stuff, like All for
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it, but know where you need to be and then know where you don't
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need to be, you know? I I, I honestly, I don't
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disagree with you on that, but I also don't know what ran up in
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the moments before that. You know, the video starts kind
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of late in the game, but I'd I'd also say your read on this sort
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of presumes and only put words in your mouth, but that ICE
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agents are just there. They're just doing their job.
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They're just going to this house to do the arrest that they're
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set for their behavior to the people who were protesting.
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I don't know what they did. Were they throwing bricks at
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them or were they? You know what I mean?
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Like were they just being in the way?
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But what I did see was extremely aggressive behavior by ICE
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agents that the like there was distance between these people.
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They were going over to push these people out of the way.
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So I I don't know, but I'm not willing to walk away from the
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right of a citizen to protest. And if the level of bullshit
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that was spoken by that Bovino guy about this shortly after
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completely divorced from what's obvious on the videotape, maybe
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this isn't fair and maybe it's not fair to the individual
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officers. But if a guy's willing to lie to
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you about a gun and how that happened, the guy's willing to
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lie to you from the press conference, Dyess, then I'm not
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sure that I believe that they were just just doing their job.
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They got out of the car and we're walking up to the door.
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I I'm I'm suspicious of that. Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, I certainly the the trust and what they're doing is
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also painted by your ideological viewpoint.
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You know for sure it is so. And I, I'm not saying you
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specifically, I, I say you as in me, you, whoever.
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So, yeah, I mean that it's a reasonable thing what you're
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saying. I you know, it's it's kind of
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like we had to talking about we were texting last night, we were
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talking about guns and you said, well, this come up about the
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Second Amendment. And then, you know, I made the
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point that I, I don't these people that say, well, you know,
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I need the right to Harry a carry a 9mm so I can fight
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against the oppression oppressive government.
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I've always thought is kind of ABS argument because my 9mm is
11:09
not going to get me too far with the Hellfire missile, you know,
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and so I don't I don't buy that argument, but I would also apply
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that argument in a situation like this.
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I mean, OK, you've got a pistol, you're going against 5.
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Even if you thought what they were doing was incorrect, you're
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going to go pick a fight with five guys with guns.
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I no bad idea. Well, again, but it, it sure
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didn't look to me that that's what was going on, picking a
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fight in the sense of maybe being in the way.
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I, I'll, I'll grant you that I think that the gun thing was a
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complete red herring. I'll tell you if you want to
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know where we are in the world. If I unless this is BS and I I
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saw it wrong. The NRA posted a position on
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this and said that it is wrong. This guy had a permit to carry a
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gun in a holster in a state where it's legal, Yeah.
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And again, yeah, if he in there with a gun a. 100% it's but if
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you were, I don't know. I mean, I I'm.
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Just I'm just saying like it's almost like it's being spun
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like, well, he had a gun. Well, yeah, but like the rule is
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that you're allowed to do that because end up I I'm with you
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that the well, the guns are what separate us from government over
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it. It it like that's kind of
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nonsense. Except that's what the NRA had
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said for, you know, forever. And that's been their
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justification of this. That's why the Second Amendment
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matters. And so the fact that a guy gets
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shot and happened to have a gun, that certainly doesn't it
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certainly doesn't mean that he deserved what he had.
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And I I don't mean to suggest that you said that, but like,
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no. And I come on, I just.
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Think I look at this and I think from multiple angles, this could
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have this is an avoidable death, yeah.
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Agreed. Did you happen to see the the
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overview of the the protest marches blocks long in 20 below
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weather. Is that something that federal
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government ought to take into consideration when they decide
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where they're going to do? I don't want to presume that you
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agree with me, but this is it appears to me to be 100%
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selective enforcement. They I quoted you some stats.
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There's 2000 ICE agents in a state that has around 130,000
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undocumented people. There's 20 times that number in
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Texas and there's probably not 40,000 ICE agents walking around
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in Texas. You called out the cooperation
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of local law enforcement, but I don't think it's that simple.
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I don't think this is just pro rata.
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They Trump himself said that This is why they're going into
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Minnesota is to to he's going. Some place to, they're deporting
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people where they didn't deport before.
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I mean, Biden was deporting, like I said, they, they said
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during the Biden administration and I think, I think the number
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was 327 deportation arrests a day under Biden.
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Now under Trump, it's 700 and something.
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So it's roughly double what it was under Biden.
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Biden wasn't going in deporting anybody in Minnesota.
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He wasn't going to New York, he wasn't going to any other blue
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state. You know, they're doing
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deportation operations all day every day in Texas and nobody's
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interfering with them and there's no shootings.
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I, I just wonder why. I mean, I don't know, but you
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know, 1 angle is they're sending in people and they're screwing
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with things in Minnesota. I think another angle is why is,
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I mean, Minnesota's not the only place they're doing deportation
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operations. Why is it that there's this much
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of A unrest and backlash in Minnesota and it's not existing
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anyplace else in the country? And I'm saying it's a
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provocation. I'm saying that they
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specifically and deliberately, and Trump's on the record for
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doing this, saying that we're going to pick a place that he
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sees political advantage in. He sees Waltz as having some
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problems with the fraud thing, which I don't know much about.
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And I think he's 100% trying to embarrass a Democrat governor.
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And I think that it was, I guess I don't see this as a
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legitimate. I don't, I don't know why you
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need 2000 base agents in Minnesota.
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Well. Partly because for protection,
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because of the same thing I was saying in Texas, they basically
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deputized the state police. So you got 3500 state police
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that are actually executing deportation arrests.
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But in places like Minnesota, they they've obstructed federal
16:15
law enforcement. They said, no, we're not going
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to cooperate with local police. We're not going to even let the
16:20
local police collaborate on the raids.
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And so if you're going to carry out federal enforcement
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operations in a place like Minnesota, it's going to take a
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lot more agents. It's going to take in Texas.
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And I, I just, I don't, if I'm the mayor of Minneapolis or I'm
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the governor of Minnesota, I'm saying I disagree with these
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raids. Let me handle it.
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I'll take it to the White House, protest peacefully.
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Do not approach a federal agent and get an altercation with him.
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I'd be saying that from a freaking loudspeaker to protect
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my citizens. I just feel like, you know, hey,
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these guys are the devil. Screw them, go get them.
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And I'm like, no, that's not going to end well.
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And you got a lot of people that are, you know, pissed off and
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upset and are going to go pull something.
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And it's like, I don't whether you like like again, like I
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said, whether whatever your viewpoint, I just hope that
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people are exhibit some safety here.
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I. I agree.
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I think that that's a fair thing and I I think that that needs to
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be part of the message and you're not.
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And I'm not, look, I'm not making this like some huge
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argument you I validate what you're saying.
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Yes, they're going and they're trying to do enforcement in
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places that haven't been enforced before and it's pissing
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people off. And are they doing it to piss
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people off? They doing it to enforce.
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Valid point. I just think you think with the
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right management of this situation, you could get it to a
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place that is not a danger zone. I'm just fearful, you know, you,
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you keep sending more people and more officers.
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I don't know how this gets better.
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Well, but you know, you, you want to lay it at the mayor and
18:10
the and the governor's feet. And again, I'm not great at
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counting crowds, but I've seen video of what looked like it had
18:19
to been 50 or 100,000 people marching in 20 below weather.
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If that's your constituency, if your constituency cares that
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much and is that passionate about it?
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I mean, do you not have an obligation to honor that?
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Yes. Honor it, honor it and tell
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people to stay the hell away from somebody that's got a gun
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and that can hurt him. Yeah.
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I, no, I I I hear you on that. I I do and I don't and I think
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it's. Totally within anybody's right
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to protest. That's not what I'm saying at
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all. 100% you ought to protest. I just don't see the I don't see
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the even if what you think those, those even if you know,
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hey, it's not executing a criminal warrant, they're going
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and getting somebody you totally disagree with.
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That's the wrong place to insert yourself.
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If you want to stop those officers, take this up the
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chain. Picking a fight with somebody
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who's got a gun is not a good move.
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I hear you on that. Are there no practical limits to
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that? I guess I, I mean at some point,
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I don't think you mean the sound like this, but I, I can't not
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hear in what you're saying like, well, they're going to do what
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they're going to do anyway. So just roll with it.
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Like I your, your, your point about safety is well taken.
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I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to argue that, but it look, we just
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got to take it like we can stand in the cold and you can March.
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Actually, you can't. You can be one of the 100
19:59
pastors that knelt in a part. And I know where they knelt at
20:03
Minneapolis airport and they weren't even in the way of
20:05
anything. And they arrested 100 pastors
20:09
and hauled them off in a church in a school bus.
20:13
I don't know that a pastor on their knees praying is
20:16
threatening. And so you know who did that?
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I don't know like. With local police.
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I don't know, probably or might have been TSA.
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I don't know, but I think I I don't want to personalize this
20:36
to you. I, I, I don't think it's an
20:40
accident that Trump's support right now is 35% of the country.
20:45
I think that there are those on the right who have laughed
20:49
through the years about, oh, Trump derangement syndrome.
20:52
Most people are going crazy. I, I think you know, that this
20:57
is passion for me when, you know, sometimes I just bitch at
21:01
you about Trump, but I, I feel like we are in really dangerous
21:08
territory for our democracy. And I'm not alone.
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And again, I look at the people marching in Minneapolis.
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Minneapolis is not like San Francisco.
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It's a pretty normal ish place. It's not a liberal bastion.
21:26
It's actually kind of like an ultimate middle of the road
21:30
place. And people are animated about
21:34
this and God love them. Tim Waltz, whom I've known for
21:38
12 years. He's not the one that has turned
21:43
out that crowd. They're not he's not got that
21:47
kind of that kind of juice with the people of Minnesota.
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People are fired up about this. And, and what do you do?
21:56
I mean, you, I don't think you're saying this.
21:59
You, you, I hear you on protesting, but it's kind of
22:02
like, well, you know, you can, you can protest, but you know,
22:06
you got to get out of the way and just well.
22:08
Hey, no, you don't. You can do whatever you want,
22:11
but people are going to die. And that's a question you got to
22:14
ask yourself. Is like, you know, is getting
22:18
people killed worth preventing a criminal?
22:23
Warrant from. Being issued.
22:25
Does I decide well? But does ICE have no
22:29
responsibility to moderate their approach or or change their
22:34
tactics or try to avoid engagement?
22:37
I I haven't heard, I haven't heard Bovino saying we go to
22:41
great lengths to avoid conflict with the people.
22:45
I don't know. Can't I watch videos of that
22:47
shooting from multiple sides? There's people blowing whistles,
22:50
there's people shouting, there's people surrounding agents.
22:54
These agents are trained to go get some guy out of a out of a
22:58
building someplace. I don't know that they're, I
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don't know who's trained to be surrounded by people yelling and
23:04
screaming at them and getting in their face.
23:06
Again, not excuse anybody's actions.
23:10
I'm just saying it's a it's a pretty agitated situation as I
23:16
guess my only point. It is.
23:19
And, and I just don't know that it's fair to say.
23:22
And the solution is the people in Minneapolis who care about
23:26
this, it's all on you. Practically, pragmatically,
23:31
you're right, right. Like that.
23:33
I mean, if a group is doing something and they're armed and
23:37
they've got a mission, you, you know, it's not prudent to get in
23:40
the way. Well, I guess.
23:42
I guess my point is I, I guess said from another angle is OK if
23:50
agitating and confronting armed agents carrying out orders is
23:57
something that could potentially risk life and limb, yet the
24:03
decision is to agitate. I mean, isn't there an
24:09
expectation of violence? I, you know, and I'm not and
24:12
then saying you should want violence, but it's like, you
24:15
know, if that's what you're going to do.
24:18
And we've said that, you know, whatever action that they're
24:20
doing is worth people dying for. Well, I mean.
24:24
That's, that's an angle, but I, I just, I don't think it is.
24:28
I, I just think people ought to look at this like, OK, is this
24:30
the, the hill I want to die on? Literally right?
24:34
I know I your, I hear your point, Kyle, but you don't think
24:40
that there's that ICE has any obligation to consider the
24:45
circumstances that they're operating in And I don't know
24:51
like. We'll play that out.
24:53
What do you mean I? Mean if If you're going to do
24:58
your raid in the rain, you wear a raincoat.
25:02
If you're going to do that raid in the heat, you take water
25:08
bottles. If you're going to do it in an
25:11
environment where you are plucking neighbors from places
25:16
where people resent that, that's part of table stakes of the job.
25:23
And I, I do think that preparing for a hostile situation, I think
25:30
it's unfair to the ICE agents to tell you the truth.
25:32
I don't think that I think they're obviously not trained
25:35
very well. They're, they're not trained
25:37
that you're supposed to not shoot.
25:39
If the guy doesn't draw the gun, they took the gun out of the
25:44
holster of his dead body. I I just think that that they
25:51
ought to consider to your point, yeah, people need to consider
25:55
the cost and the risk that they incur when you step in front of
26:01
armed troops. Truth and unarguable.
26:05
But if you're going to deploy troops or federal officers into
26:14
an environment where they are not welcomed by the citizenry,
26:19
OK, so. This is a whole other angle.
26:20
So we shouldn't enforce federal law if the citizens don't like
26:24
it. We should only enforce it in
26:26
places people want them to enforce it.
26:29
That's a whole other topic. It is.
26:32
And I guess that's what I'm saying.
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That's the essence of what protesting is about.
26:38
If you're if you care about getting the number of people out
26:41
of here, you ought to send those 2000 agents to to Texas and
26:44
accelerate what they're doing. Texas has 10 times the number of
26:47
undocumented 25. Percent of deportations in one
26:50
state, 25% of the country's deportations are coming out of
26:53
Texas. So they're doing that.
26:55
But but, but they're but they're, they're never deported.
27:00
Out of Minnesota. Because.
27:02
You know well if you. If 25% are coming out of Texas,
27:05
then the maximum you would expect to come out of Minnesota
27:08
is 2 1/2%. It's a tiny population this this
27:13
is not like, OK, well we're going to go we're going to draw
27:17
a map and where's the most efficient place to get this Now
27:20
this was a this was a calculated.
27:24
I honestly think that Trump 100% picked this fight.
27:31
They they've picked this fight and they knew that they could
27:36
get this kind of reaction. And every time I hear, you know
27:42
this well, you know, these protests a friend posted on
27:46
Facebook, you don't think this is the predicate to declaring
27:50
martial law? I think Trump would love nothing
27:53
better than that. And I don't think that they're
27:57
just trying to enforce the law. I think they are 100% trying to
28:02
trying to to foment trouble. If, if people are wrong for
28:07
taking that bait, that's a different argument.
28:09
But the intent behind this is absolutely to cause trouble.
28:15
Why is it only causing trouble? Why is it only causing trouble
28:17
in Minnesota? They're doing it every place
28:20
else. Not, not, not at the rate that
28:23
they are not at the rate that they are not at this particular.
28:27
Operation, but when? This just started not that long
28:29
ago, but there's multiple operations that have been taking
28:31
place around the country. Just saying it was deliberately
28:37
timed and planned. The scale of it was, was
28:40
designed to incite the people. And you know that that's that's
28:47
a choice that was made. That choice has consequences
28:51
too. You're going to go run around,
28:54
go to. Someplace the the they don't
28:57
like you coming in and enforcing.
29:00
Don't you think police approach? But I know that police used to
29:04
approach some of the neighborhoods in Detroit back in
29:06
the 80s a little different than they did other neighborhoods.
29:09
And they thought about what they were going into.
29:11
And they knew that if they were going to go arrest somebody,
29:13
they were going to arrest somebody in hostile territory.
29:16
And they had to be prepared for that.
29:18
And they had to think about they had a plan.
29:20
I don't know but. I OK, but then as they planned
29:25
and they had the agents and an altercation happened.
29:29
I, I guess I'm just like back to, you know, if.
29:36
I think I'd have changed my tactics the first time you shot
29:39
a lady. I think I would have considered
29:42
that. I would have considered how I
29:44
ran my operations knowing what's going on.
29:47
And I see no evidence that they've even thought about it,
29:50
or if anything, I think people ought.
29:52
To consider not agitating officers after they saw that.
29:57
Fair enough, but you but but you don't think the other the the
30:01
the alternative. You don't think that ice ought
30:04
to ought to think about how they handle things after that
30:08
shooting? Yeah, I, I mean.
30:10
Business as. Usual full speed ahead like both
30:14
can be true. I, I guess I, I just, I don't
30:18
know how this doesn't result in violence.
30:21
If you're going to carry out any type of action and you're going
30:26
to have people agitating and pushing themselves into a
30:29
situation, you know what? Why are the?
30:34
Why are the other than just? Not carrying out the action
30:37
because people are pissed at you or.
30:39
Carrying out the action in a place where apparently people
30:42
stand to cheer in Texas? Well, why not go if all we care
30:45
about is getting the illegals out here?
30:47
Let's start. With the easy ones, again,
30:49
getting criminals out and this is a criminal situation.
30:52
But if you want to, we're going to say, well, because this state
30:58
doesn't want its criminals to be picked up, then we're going to
31:02
resist that I. You you saw the the rap sheet on
31:06
the guy they were after, including the including the
31:10
driving without a or driving with a suspended license
31:15
assault. Is the part I was thinking more
31:17
of that yes. Yeah, domestic assault that like
31:21
it's pretty easy. I'm not.
31:22
Yeah, no. Problem there, That's fine.
31:24
Domestic assault is fine. Well, well, I mean, it, it just
31:28
it, The thing is, no, I, I think it's wrong.
31:31
I think it's morally wrong that we're doing this.
31:35
We were doing it. For the last four years.
31:38
No, I didn't. Have a higher only did it before
31:40
and we're doing in places they didn't do before.
31:43
Yeah. Well, it's, I think it's.
31:46
Yeah, no problem. With it being done in Texas.
31:49
But everybody's happy about it in Texas.
31:51
Why not? Like, if all you had to do is
31:53
get them out of there, why not? Why not go where it's easy?
31:57
I I don't know. I.
32:00
Why go and for segregation in a Southern school?
32:04
The whites don't want us, don't want federal law enforcement
32:06
there. Yeah, well, or.
32:10
Integration, not segregation. No, I I know what you mean but
32:16
can't argue with you in that. Except that I think that
32:19
segregation was, I think the the underlying problem was wrong.
32:24
And I don't think immigration, I don't think immigration, the
32:28
underlying problem is wrong. I think that it's been handled
32:31
badly. Agree.
32:33
I'm not in favor of the open border.
32:35
I think that was a miss on Biden's part.
32:38
But I think we need more immigration in this country and
32:43
well and I don't. I feel like you're.
32:46
I feel like you're go ahead. No, I.
32:49
I agree with you. I think I think that'll make it
32:52
easier for non criminal folks to stay like we've talked about
32:57
with the shopping mall idea. But getting people out that have
33:03
criminal warrants against them, I, I just don't, I don't see how
33:07
that's a negative, but. Like, I feel like this happens a
33:10
lot. Like you believe that it's
33:13
legitimate and sincere. And I don't think it is.
33:18
I think that it's profoundly selective enforcement designed,
33:23
designed to incite the population.
33:27
And I don't think that's right. Even if the so, no, I don't
33:31
think that that's right that they should go deliberately
33:35
trying to get in the face of and cause problems with a specific
33:40
population. I don't know if that means we
33:42
shouldn't enforce the law. You you're right to point out
33:47
that that's a sticky position to be in, but OK.
33:50
So let's run this by the other foot.
33:53
We get a Democrat administration in and trying to think of a good
34:03
analogy here, but we have some type of federal law enforcement
34:07
situation in a place like Texas that they don't want the blue
34:10
government and they want to keep out the feds even though people
34:15
are breaking the law. I'm just saying a lot of this
34:20
has to do with political as well.
34:23
And if shoes were on the other foot, I think it'd be a way
34:26
different conversation and I'm not.
34:30
Look, I don't give a shit what side you're on, what issue
34:35
you're on. I don't want people to get
34:37
killed in the street. And I think that's avoidable.
34:41
And I, you know, it goes back to you.
34:42
Like we want the same thing. We want people to be safe in
34:46
their communities. I think this gets to another
34:49
point of where our view of how we get there differs, but I
34:54
think we have the same goal that we don't want people to get
34:56
killed. I agree with that.
34:59
I just you your approach to the work that ICE is doing it it
35:06
just again, I I think that you believe that they're sincerely
35:12
trying to enforce the law and I don't believe that's what the
35:15
goal is. I think that the goal is to try
35:20
to embarrass a Democrat government, to try to
35:22
deliberately pick a fight to try to incite people and then you
35:28
incite people. What do you figure?
35:31
OK. Imagine the conference room at
35:34
the White House. What are they trying to
35:35
accomplish? Well, is this situation.
35:39
Helping them at all. You said it.
35:41
Oh my God. I.
35:43
Think that like you don't think that this is what they want.
35:47
I think that's the biggest problem I've got with the whole
35:49
thing, other than about the people dying, is that it plays
35:52
directly into the narrative that Trump's trying to foment.
35:57
Do you think there's a 0? Every time I hear someone in the
36:01
administration, they're talking about these protests and, and
36:03
like vilifying protest I I'm not talking about violence or
36:08
anything like that, but just, you know, I'm looking at people
36:10
marching in the streets and you hear this right at these
36:12
protesters. Look man, it's their right to
36:15
protest, sure, And if it's inconvenient to you, but I think
36:22
they're trying to criminalize protest I.
36:24
There's a difference between protest and interfering with a
36:29
federal enforcement activity. Those are way different
36:32
activities. Agreed.
36:34
But then, but then the administration ought to respect
36:38
that difference, too. And you see all kinds of
36:41
conflation that's like, well, there's people protesting.
36:44
Yeah, BFD. There's people protesting.
36:46
People don't believe in what you're doing.
36:49
It's totally fine. Yeah.
36:52
But that's not how it's been screaming.
36:54
At a law enforcement agent's face, maybe it's legal.
37:00
I don't think it's right. Now, if you think that, again,
37:03
it goes back to the if you think what they're doing is illegal
37:07
and immoral and it needs to stop, that's a decision you're
37:11
going to have to make. And is that worth your life or
37:13
limb? I just, I don't, I don't see
37:16
that. Yeah, I think, I think there's
37:19
more people that that would make that rational choice than you
37:23
think. I think that's what I was trying
37:25
to say earlier about the level of passion that this evokes in
37:31
people. I, I deliberately try not to
37:35
catastrophize on this podcast. I, I think it's, I think it'd be
37:38
disrespectful to you. And I don't think anybody wants
37:41
to hear me, you know, kind of barking about the end times
37:47
about this. But I think I think things are a
37:52
lot worse and a lot more dangerous than I usually
38:00
describe it as when we're talking.
38:03
I tone down my pessimism about the future of our democracy.
38:11
But you should spend some time with some of the people that I
38:15
hang out with you. You should talk to some of the
38:19
people that are on my side. And Ditto.
38:25
Yeah. Well.
38:26
I, I'm just saying, I think that that this is a, this is a, a
38:32
pretty deep issue and I think people really are feeling pushed
38:37
to a breaking point. No, I see it.
38:42
I see. It on Facebook, I see a lot of I
38:45
see a lot of the dialogue on Facebook for sure that points to
38:48
that. I just, I don't know, I'm a
38:52
little more glass half full I guess.
38:55
Yeah, I hope you're right. I'm I'm not confident and in
39:01
part because I don't think what we're seeing is the natural
39:07
tension between between policy perspectives or different
39:13
philosophies of government. I see, you know, you said that
39:19
you saw this before the weaponization of government, but
39:22
that's what this 100% is on display to me.
39:27
I saw way worse the last four years than now do.
39:30
You what specifically did you? Are you talking about the half
39:35
a? Dozen trials against Donald
39:37
Trump, for one. The again, that whole Twitter,
39:42
the whole there only. Should have been 2 the whole.
39:44
Demonization of, you know, they the, the whole coming out of
39:52
COVID and the, the deep platforming of people because
39:57
they didn't agree with science, even though the science wasn't
40:00
settled and the government getting involved and censoring
40:04
people on a social media platform.
40:06
That to me is a huge line crossed.
40:10
Yeah, I think that's a problem. No, I I agree with you there.
40:14
I think that's a problem. I think that a lot of the deep
40:18
platforming though was independent decisions.
40:21
By private business I just mean. The that whole Matt Talebi and
40:28
everything the the stuff before Congress about the
40:32
administration calling and dictating how they.
40:36
How they? Tone down certain quotes and
40:38
other quotes depending on what people are saying that that
40:41
scares the crap out of me because I think that could
40:45
happen with anybody and that's. That's, yeah.
40:49
Well, fair enough. There weren't tanks involved.
40:55
I mean, I think pressure from, I tend to be a First Amendment
41:02
absolutist, so I, I share some of your concern there.
41:06
But a pressure phone call from the White House is different
41:09
than citing the Insurrection Act and sending the 82nd Airborne
41:13
someplace Those aren't. I don't think those are
41:16
equivalencies. Yeah, well, I mean it depends on
41:20
situation I guess. Yeah, I don't know.
41:24
I think, yeah, I don't know where this goes.
41:29
Like I said, I don't think if you think it's your problems in
41:33
Minnesota, there'd be other places in this country that
41:37
would that would be equally problematic.
41:40
And I don't even know what I mean by that.
41:44
Well, I. Think that's a good dialogue to
41:47
have though, is, I mean, it's kind of the whole state rights
41:52
versus federal, like, you know, when is the federal, when is the
41:58
federal government allowed to act?
42:00
When are they not, or is it, does it depend on the local
42:06
regional populace's view? I don't know.
42:12
I think that's that's a slippery slope and could wind up in a lot
42:14
of dangerous territory because then it's like, well, what other
42:20
federal agencies? I don't like the SEC exerting
42:25
its influence on my region of the country.
42:27
Yeah. And it's a silly example, but
42:30
you. Know what you mean?
42:32
Yeah, No, I if I could. Get the SEC to leave us alone
42:36
here in Dallas. We could have some fun for a
42:39
while. Can't.
42:43
Yeah, I, I, I don't know. I Again, if this was the the
42:48
logical outgrowth of two different policy positions, two
42:52
different philosophies of government colliding, it might
42:56
not be easier, but it would seem more worth it to have the
43:02
argument. I feel like this whole thing is
43:05
synthesized and synthesized for a reason.
43:09
And that that's part of what really what really calls.
43:11
Yeah, I think. You've been pretty clear about
43:13
that. I, I guess.
43:15
I guess whether it's since synthesized or made-up, whatever
43:22
the reasoning for it, it is creating a conflict that I think
43:26
would have implications in other zones for other reasons.
43:31
And it's a, it creates a, you know, it definitely creates a
43:37
conundrum of, OK, you can apply the law consistently or not.
43:46
But I mean, I hear you, but law enforcement is inherently like a
43:58
I'm just thinking about the discretion that a local cop has,
44:02
right? You're doing 2 over.
44:05
They can arrest you for that. I mean, they can, they can cite
44:09
you for that or they can let you go.
44:11
They there's a lot of latitude in the way things are enforced.
44:16
And if you told me that that the same rigor was being applied to
44:23
all of the other immigrant populations in the country pro
44:26
rata to what we had going on in Minnesota, that would hold more
44:32
water with me. But again, I, I guess
44:36
fundamentally, I don't, I don't give it the benefit of the doubt
44:41
that it's genuine. I don't think it's genuine.
44:43
I think it was, it's been made to be this you, you have
44:50
discretion where you're going to go and what fights you're going
44:53
to pick. There's clearly the question of
44:58
enforcing law across the country.
45:01
You, I mean, I can't argue that that's not a not a concern.
45:06
I mean, I don't like the whole thing to begin with.
45:08
So I take a negative view of it from that perspective.
45:14
Well. All I'm going to tell you can't
45:17
is if you decide to go and protest somewhere, I'm all for
45:20
it and I support you. But stay the blank away from
45:25
anybody, any law enforcement agent with a gun.
45:29
I don't care what your opinion is.
45:32
Promise me that. Well, I.
45:35
I, I hear you on that, but I just, I just again, I don't
45:45
think you have the fear and the mistrust of our government that
45:51
I do. And so it's funny.
45:55
You say this just those words because I was seeing similar
46:00
words under the last administration and you looked at
46:03
me like, well, you're crazy. Why would you think it that
46:05
think that way? No, I know, I know.
46:11
I'm supremely depressed right now.
46:14
Really, I'm just, yeah, I, I don't see, I don't see good
46:21
outcomes because we've got a president who is enjoying this
46:31
moment more than anybody, period.
46:36
I think he is loving this and that.
46:40
That bothers me. You know what we're not talking
46:44
about? So what about Europe?
46:50
Does NATO still exist? I guess we talking about in
46:54
other well the the NATO Secretary.
46:58
Was actually you didn't see the NATO secretary's pro pro Trump
47:02
speech then apparently. No, what did they say?
47:06
He said. Basically, what Trump has been
47:09
doing with NATO is why NATO is in a stronger position than
47:12
they've ever been, because all of these international, all
47:16
these other countries are finally investing in their own
47:18
militaries. Which, well, I think kind of an
47:22
inarguable fact. Yeah.
47:24
I think it's good that they're upping their game.
47:27
And because of that, it means that the United States doesn't
47:30
have to fully carry the burden of all of the military for the
47:34
world and. Why do we have Why do we have
47:35
80,000 troops and Europe? I agree.
47:39
And so now that they're going to carry more of their own share,
47:43
how does that ripple through the budget?
47:45
And do we do we dial back the defense budget then because we
47:49
know I think we. Got more troops.
47:51
I just think we got more troops to send to Minnesota.
47:53
Can't. Yeah.
47:54
Well, I think that that's probably where we're going.
47:58
I mean, you know, not to be a smart ass, but sure.
48:01
OK. Yeah, NATO, European countries
48:04
need to pay more for their own security.
48:06
I I completely agree with that. And independent of Donald Trump,
48:11
I think that that's a fairpoint. I thought we've put too much
48:15
money into our military to support them for 50 years, which
48:19
doesn't mean that I don't believe that the alliance is
48:21
valuable and that we've got a really powerful thing.
48:26
And so, yeah, I'm happy that they're going to pay more, but I
48:31
don't think the most recent defense budget reflects that
48:36
change. Yeah.
48:37
No, I agree. Where's that?
48:38
Where's that peace dividend? Yeah.
48:40
Well, I mean, yeah, it it's not getting smaller and I think, I
48:45
think it could easily get smaller.
48:46
And you got my 1000% agreement. We shouldn't be buying AB 21 as
48:51
we said. We should be buying a fleet of
48:53
drones, you know. Man, that alone can.
48:58
Has nobody read the news of the war in Ukraine to realize where
49:06
warfare has? I mean, if you want to take a
49:08
look at things like, you know, the Pentagon doesn't want to
49:12
tell you, but just looking at Ukraine, it looks to me that
49:17
like about 40% of our hardware is obsolete now in a really big
49:23
way. And yeah, that's not catching up
49:27
things well. I.
49:28
Mean a lot. Most of what Ukraine's using is
49:31
coming from us, so I mean. Or.
49:35
Or. Or kids building drone bombs on
49:39
their own. And you know, like the like,
49:42
that's the like the innovative part.
49:44
It, it almost looks to me the unmanned stuff in Ukraine and
49:50
the degree to which that corners turned.
49:55
It really, it makes me think a little bit about like aviation
49:59
in World War One, where like people who were watching were
50:02
like, oh shit, this game just changed, you know, And I, I feel
50:07
like maybe people aren't recognizing that right now.
50:11
You know, I, I had AI had a moment.
50:15
There's been probably 15 or 20 years ago, I was watching, I
50:19
think it was the like The History Channel did like these
50:22
decade history series and they did the one about the 60s.
50:27
And I look back at that and that's always been kind of my
50:32
standard for how. And technically, I think what
50:35
I'm talking about is the late 60s and even the early 70s, you
50:39
know, that period from, you know, Vietnam protests.
50:44
And but I think of that as the 60s.
50:46
But, you know, Kent State was like 72 and man, I just think
50:51
about what, you know, how was that with the country so divided
50:56
and stuff. But even at that point, you
50:59
know, you had like people and families who had different views
51:02
on things. But I feel like now the
51:07
tribalism and the division and the the separate channels of
51:11
media, it, it makes this more perilous, I think.
51:16
Well, the the the walls of the echo chambers are stronger
51:21
because you got multiple channels, you got, you got
51:25
1,000,000. Walter Cronkite's out there on
51:27
all different sides of the the equation.
51:30
Right. Yeah.
51:32
I don't know. I just thought about, you know,
51:34
the back to our folks and what that must have been like, you
51:38
know, but I mean. Honestly, you probably, we
51:44
probably experienced more of the 60s than our parents did because
51:49
they were sitting in home watching a 20 minute news
51:53
program every night. We're seeing like millions of
51:57
angles of these things 50 years late, you know what I mean?
52:01
It's like that's actually. Really interesting point, right?
52:04
Like they lived through it, but they lived through the the
52:07
monoculture I. Love it like like their view of
52:10
this current situation would be way different too.
52:12
It's whatever their their little pinhole told them about it, you
52:15
know? Yeah, yeah.
52:18
So part of your. Depression is knowledge to a
52:21
degree. Boy, that.
52:23
Is actually a really profound point I think so if knowledge is
52:30
the cause of my depression, I don't know that the corollary of
52:36
that ignorance is my blitz. You know, like I don't want to
52:41
like I, I think I have to I think all of us have to kind of
52:43
manage that because yeah, to your point, like I've got 300
52:51
million cell phone lenses on everything that's bad with the
52:56
country and it amplifies and magnifies that but it doesn't
53:01
make it technically or actually worse than it otherwise.
53:04
Was it just it just like self reinforces well?
53:09
It's kind of like if you were God and you experienced all the
53:13
sorrow of the world in an instant.
53:17
Like I don't want to know all that.
53:20
Right. But do I want to?
53:23
Do I want to deliberately make myself unaware?
53:28
Maybe. Maybe can't.
53:30
I was can't. I'm going to buy some land in
53:33
West TX. We're going to form a little
53:35
compound. We're not going to have
53:37
Internet. So there's that.
53:44
Yeah, as as alluring as that sounds, No, I know what you
53:52
mean. I it.
53:54
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thought.
53:56
Like, like we get a bigger dose of it.
54:00
Then again, to your point, you know, it's like, it's Walter
54:03
Concrete. Like the world may be falling
54:06
apart, but you're getting 30 minutes of that at 6:00 PM.
54:10
Yeah, right now I'm getting about 18 hours a day because I
54:14
sleep about 6 hours a day and my notifications run all the other.
54:21
Well, and and what exacerbates it more is you're getting 18
54:25
hours a day of your customized delivered like giving you the
54:31
maximum stimulation of how bad everything is.
54:35
And my feed is some other derivation.
54:39
No, it's it's true. It's a wonder.
54:42
We're all as sane as we are, is what I think.
54:46
All right, Well, this is a sensitive topic to me.
54:49
Obviously, I'm grateful for your, for your, your measured
54:54
and your thoughtful approach to it.
54:56
And that that gives me a lot of a lot of comfort.
55:01
I really appreciate that. Well, Kent.
55:03
I appreciate you and I mean this, you know, this is a tough
55:08
time for everybody regardless. Loss of life is not something
55:12
you wish on anybody regards of political or anything.
55:15
And I know you're down and depressed on the state of the
55:19
country, but I want to encourage you to be not down and
55:24
depressed. And yeah, there's assholes and
55:28
there's people you don't like and stuff you don't like, but
55:31
you got a a great friend and brother here who who disagrees
55:36
with you sometimes but loves you so we can get through anything.
55:40
So. I appreciate that Kyle, love you
55:42
too and, and, and your family and thanks for your, your, your
55:48
gentle way of and, and thoughtful way of, of talking
55:52
this through. Well, thanks.
55:53
For opening my horizons, I appreciate it.
56:01
Hey, thanks for joining us on this episode of Bourbon and Rum
56:03
Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it.
56:05
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56:13
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Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want to
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hear and until. Next time, cheers.