Latest / The Horsehuman Connection Matrix / Kimberly Dunn part 2

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Kimberly Dunn part 2 · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:03
  This is the Horse Human Connection, a captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning, horse training.
• 0:12
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:18
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
• 0:26
  The Horse Human Connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:32
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
• 0:40
  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
• 0:49
  The Voice is this podcast.
• 0:52
  Welcome to today's episode.
• 1:11
  Hey, welcome back to Horse Human Connection.
• 1:13
  Ishi Abel here with Kimberly Dunn still in part two of our conversation.
• 1:20
  Hello.
• 1:22
  All right, Kimberly.
• 1:23
  This is this is so helpful.
• 1:25
  I'm so glad that we're having.
• 1:27
  Having this talk and being able to record it, because I think there's so much information that people don't stop to think about, especially people that are just drawn to getting a horse, who know they want to be around horses, and they fall right into the old paradigm without realizing what's really available.
• 1:47
  Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 1:48
  Quite often I have people contact me.
• 1:51
  I think that's been a majority of a lot of the work I've done with people is They've had equine related trauma.
• 2:00
  Or they've had less than ideal experiences and they're, they're trying to figure out their way and how to make sense of their, of their sort of raw compulsion to be with a horse and what does that look like?
• 2:12
  And what's that about?
• 2:13
  Right?
• 2:14
  And so quite often a lot of us who make a conscious decision, I'm going to get a horse, I'm going to be involved with horses.
• 2:23
  They rely on the professionals.
• 2:25
  And the experts to tell them what that's going to look like or what those experiences are going to be about.
• 2:31
  And then comes this long journey of adoption quite often for a lot of people, I believe walking further and further away from what instigated that core compulsion, that, that raw sense of, I want to connect with an animal.
• 2:51
  And somehow it just gets muddled and lost.
• 2:54
  So, yeah.
• 2:55
  Yeah, I, I agree.
• 2:57
  I I have a horse.
• 2:58
  I, you, you know, her Sipsi and I don't know that much about her history other than that she was a Mustang and that someone wanted a horse, got a horse, knew nothing.
• 3:08
  And she is completely traumatized by ropes and checked out when I got her.
• 3:13
  And it was over a year on the ground, building a relationship with her, just building the relationship before we even really started much training.
• 3:21
  it's perfect example there of what you're saying.
• 3:24
  So, some of the people that have found you after having a traumatic experience with a horse, what does it look like?
• 3:31
  How do you walk them through it?
• 3:33
  What are you, what do you see happening or what are some of the the threads that are the same that you see a repetition of working with people like that?
• 3:44
  Yeah it's mainly two parts.
• 3:47
  So there's Doing we're actually doing and then there's talking, right?
• 3:53
  Talking through quite often.
• 3:54
  Questioning directly those, those belief systems that form.
• 3:59
  From our experiences, including the traumatic ones but how a session might look quite often because of trauma, we're dealing with people who are going to get anxiety.
• 4:15
  Okay.
• 4:16
  Or there's going to be points in the experience that cause them to not fully function.
• 4:24
  And they make it, they make it guard.
• 4:27
  Some people respond by being guarded or shut down or not fully being aware of where they are or what they're, what they're doing in the experience all the way to the other end where we have some people who really want to emphasize control.
• 4:43
  And, you know, they, they really dial in harder into that kind of that dominance.
• 4:48
  I have to control every little thing.
• 4:51
  And so we're just trying to unravel that.
• 4:55
  And the process is very creative and it's definitely designed for the individual based on where they're at.
• 5:03
  But what it looks like quite often is if we have an end goal we have to deconstruct it into its.
• 5:11
  Little bite size pieces that are, are that individual is able to, um, deal with.
• 5:19
  Okay.
• 5:20
  So, for example I had a client who just standing on the mounting block with the horse standing there would send her into a panic.
• 5:30
  So, you know, you find your baseline.
• 5:32
  So you have to figure out through some exploration, what is your baseline starting point that isn't going to take the client over threshold, but gets, you have to be really aware of the emotional thresholds and then through that deconstructing of an experience, break it down until the confidence gets built with that.
• 5:56
  So, for example, that person, we did quite a bit of standing at the mounting block working on relaxing, touching the horse, the horse would walk away, the horse would come back to the mounting block, and, repeat, and then we'd go, okay, you ready to add a little more?
• 6:12
  It's this deconstructing of the whole experience, and then, when are we ready to add a little more?
• 6:17
  The core component of this is patience and understanding, right?
• 6:23
  Because what happens a lot with teachers is they want the individual to be writing and doing something, right?
• 6:31
  Yeah, they don't want to take the time that the individual needs.
• 6:35
  To feel okay and to have done the healing and all of that that's necessary to gain that confidence back.
• 6:44
  As you're describing this, what, what I'm reminded of is how you work with horses.
• 6:48
  It's a really similar process, isn't it?
• 6:51
  Like looking for the micro, the micro signs.
• 6:55
  And all that are telling you where the individual, whether it be a horse or a person is and when you can proceed to the next level.
• 7:03
  It's kind of the same, isn't it?
• 7:05
  It is the same.
• 7:06
  It's a little added complexity with horses because most people assume the horse is ready.
• 7:13
  And they haven't told the person that they're ready.
• 7:16
  We can have humans tell us with our words, right?
• 7:20
  I'm ready.
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  Let's do a little more.
• 7:22
  But with a horse, it's really easy.
• 7:25
  If we have this agenda, like I want to see this horse galloping, around the arena or heading down the trail and crossing water or whatever.
• 7:33
  And because we're so focused on that, we sometimes override a horse saying, I'm not ready.
• 7:42
  I need to do this a little bit more before you can add more, or I need to go back even, you know, further back to the starting point.
• 7:52
  And so that, that's a little added challenge.
• 7:55
  And really, I think a successful trainer honors when the horse says, I'm not ready, or I am ready, and knows what that looks like with the individual horse.
• 8:13
  Yeah, that makes sense.
• 8:14
  That makes really good sense.
• 8:16
  So have you seen introducing horses back into people's lives after trauma be life changing for them?
• 8:23
  What, do you have any stories like that that are just like some real feel good stories that take a person from, facing their fears into?
• 8:32
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:33
  The most recent one is a person who I think has had a series of traumas.
• 8:41
  So it wasn't one individual experience.
• 8:45
  It was just overall series of traumas that really eroded their confidence and kind of shut them down to fully opening up to the whole experience of horsemanship.
• 9:00
  And then it got compounded with a physical injury.
• 9:05
  Where they needed a hip replacement.
• 9:07
  Okay, so not only are we working at the emotional level, now we're working at rehab at the physical level.
• 9:15
  And we started out with this particular individual where I have a pony who's rock solid and will stand forever.
• 9:26
  While this person practices feeling and seeing their body in their own time, get on the horse, get off the horse.
• 9:34
  Feeling the horse underneath of them and just really taking it slow and then taking a step practicing your muscle memory of all those different moves you make right to to ride with the horse and and then we started in the arena without and then we took it to lead line work on the trail and.
• 9:57
  It was very methodical and we're talking several sessions of where we're just adding a little bit more and adding a little bit more.
• 10:05
  And that moment, I'm going to cry in that moment when we're walking along.
• 10:13
  On the trail, I'm on the ground next to the horse.
• 10:16
  The person is just up there feeling, experiencing accessing their body, their muscle memory, their emotions and everything.
• 10:28
  I handed that person.
• 10:30
  I took the lead rope and I made it into a rain and I handed it to that person and we both started just like, you know, it's a delightful moment and she had to give me a hug and, you know, she just had all this joy.
• 10:46
  Yeah, yeah, really.
• 10:49
  It's very touching but stuff like stuff like that is just so worthwhile to me.
• 10:57
  I don't care if people win ribbons.
• 10:59
  I don't, I don't care if they win a race, sorry.
• 11:05
  No, that's getting somebody to that magic spot where, where either they used to be or they didn't think they would be or didn't think they could get to is is incredible.
• 11:16
  It says moments.
• 11:18
  So regulation plays a part in whether it's people or horses or both becoming familiar with our own awareness and our own regulation seems like a prerequisite to being able to work with both horses and people in this way.
• 11:37
  Yeah.
• 11:38
  You have do you have some thoughts about that?
• 11:42
  Yeah.
• 11:44
  When I design or plan out an experience, whether it's a learning session for a horse or for a human what is in the forefront of my mind is what, what about this experience is going to help call for emotional regulation that's attainable, so, being aware of Emotional thresholds and the ability of the individual, whether it's a horse or a human their skill level at emotional regulation.
• 12:18
  I want to always tap into that 1st.
• 12:22
  And provide a way for them to see how they had the self control, how they maintained their stability through whatever.
• 12:35
  It sounds like you say you set that up for them.
• 12:38
  I think about what we're going to do, what the tasks will be, what we will be doing, what will be the experience that will not take the individual over to where they just go into either dissociation or dismissal and I'm leaving, you know that, that keeps, it's just enough to keep the individual, Wanting and feeling like they can figure this out.
• 13:11
  And I think that is a huge problem with a lot of training.
• 13:17
  Is lack of awareness of what happens at the psychological level and the emotional level.
• 13:28
  The brain chemical level.
• 13:32
  When we set an environment, a context up that is going to take the individual over their threshold and then puts them into a coping strategy rather than a learning strategy.
• 13:52
  A lot of this wisdom and knowledge for me came from a lot of research into mental health.
• 13:59
  And neurodivergence, and the more I understood neurodivergence by necessity having a family member, a second family member now that we've discovered is on the spectrum for autism, those types of explorations and, and self education helped me understand that.
• 14:22
  With people and with horses as well.
• 14:24
  Regulation and being over your tolerance level and threshold are things that happen with people on the spectrum when there's overwhelm and overload and.
• 14:34
  Being recently diagnosed myself, now I understand for so many years why, uh, why that's a problem.
• 14:41
  And I also understand how learning to regulate with a horse has been helpful for me in those respects.
• 14:47
  But I also have an idea, and I'm curious what, what your thoughts are on this.
• 14:52
  I have this idea that Neurodivergence, and some of this idea comes from Dr.
• 14:58
  Grandin, Dr.
• 14:59
  Temple Grandin, about people on the spectrum, thinking in pictures, and herd animals thinking in pictures, and how those dots get connected.
• 15:09
  Do you think there's a correlation?
• 15:11
  Do you think there's some superpowers that people on the spectrum have with horses?
• 15:16
  Yeah, quite possibly.
• 15:17
  Yes.
• 15:18
  I think there's like a core quality, if you will, for lack of being scientific core quality about.
• 15:27
  People who are on the spectrum in that they have quite often this intuitiveness, this awareness that's very heightened, um, and it can only be defined as incredibly intuitive.
• 15:45
  anD then, you know, that core combined with personality.
• 15:51
  Of the individual is going to determine whether there'll be a good connection correlation with with working with animals or horses.
• 16:03
  Did I understand what you were asking?
• 16:05
  Yeah.
• 16:06
  That makes sense.
• 16:07
  That you see, you see some kind of a, a possibility of a heightened experience there.
• 16:13
  Yeah.
• 16:13
  Yeah.
• 16:14
  Definitely.
• 16:15
  Definitely.
• 16:16
  So when we start talking about like the emotional component and we start talking about the possibility of these heightened experiences.
• 16:28
  We're almost crossing into the field or maybe we are crossing into the field of, of what's also defined as animal communication or clairvoyance or ESP and those kind of things.
• 16:39
  Do you have do you have any opinions or observations or experiences with any of that?
• 16:45
  I've, I've had a few very esoteric experiences, no doubt about it.
• 16:53
  I Will say that.
• 16:56
  the whole topic.
• 16:58
  I look forward to more understanding about that.
• 17:02
  I don't have a lot of experience.
• 17:06
  In a formal way of trying to understand that.
• 17:09
  So in other words, I've never engaged in a whole lot of activity that explores that.
• 17:16
  And I've not had a lot of conversations.
• 17:18
  I haven't read a lot.
• 17:21
  What I will say, though, is I do get a sense that those things are about a very refined end.
• 17:29
  If they, if they do exist in our real, we're talking about something that's highly refined and sophisticated in intuition and intuition is something that I am a big champion for so intuitive practice.
• 17:49
  I find everybody can benefit from and they could engage in it wherever they're at with their understanding and the level.
• 17:59
  And it's something that you can grow and develop.
• 18:04
  Going back to more kind of like things that we can all see, observe, know I think that can be more refined as well.
• 18:18
  So I see a lot of people when they come in and I start working with them in sessions or in clinics.
• 18:25
  I see so much dullness and there is a huge room still of intuitive practice that people aren't tapping into.
• 18:36
  And so that, that involves being able to just really observe micro expressions, understand subtle nuances of things it's, it's a point of focus that's sort of atrophied with a lot of us.
• 18:58
  And I think.
• 19:00
  If we can get more and more people to develop kind of that, that side, the more attainable type of intuitiveness and value it and see the significance in it, we may have more people who want to go even further and talk about these more esoteric.
• 19:22
  Explorations so I'm all for exploration of it.
• 19:26
  I just don't have a whole lot of personal experience with it.
• 19:32
  It sounds like and you've heard me talk about what I call the different cultures, the horse culture and human culture.
• 19:38
  And every time we're with equines, we need to be aware of both cultures.
• 19:41
  And in my mind, some of what you're describing seems to fit into you.
• 19:47
  When we enter, when we slow down enough to enter into their culture of the micro nuances, because that's where they live and slow down our thinking or halt some of our belief systems and entered their world, that's where the opportunities are so big.
• 20:06
  And, and to me, it sounds a little bit like that's what you're describing.
• 20:11
  Correct, correct.
• 20:12
  I think if we can get people more willing.
• 20:16
  To think outside the box and more willing to.
• 20:25
  Approach their equine experiences with creativity and not have an agenda, be more open minded about what may come, what may unfold from our time together and be okay with it and find the nuggets in that it's, it may not look like anything we think it should look like, but it's valid and it's worthwhile and it may help us.
• 20:54
  On that journey to be more intuitive.
• 20:57
  What does that feel like, that moment, I know for myself, it's been a struggle, so, but that moment you're describing when you begin to come into the barn or come into the arena or wherever you're working on the trail with the horse and give up agenda, like, what does that feel like?
• 21:12
  What are the thoughts that go through your head?
• 21:14
  Does it come easily?
• 21:15
  Did you have to work to get there?
• 21:16
  Was it a back and forth thing?
• 21:20
  Yeah, I would say probably the biggest help that I gave myself was.
• 21:27
  You know, years ago when I had an agenda and I knew and I wanted to accomplish a certain thing in a session you know, as an example, like, okay, I'm going to teach my horse how to side pass today.
• 21:39
  If I got focused on that and got really rigid about it, and not let maybe what some of the little things that the horse did in the moments were.
• 21:50
  It didn't work out instead of getting angry and like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna up my force or I'm gonna.
• 21:57
  Change my equipment or, or whatever, right.
• 22:00
  Instead of doing like, Oh, I've got to hold my agenda and I'm going to make this happen.
• 22:06
  I stop myself and go, why is this not working?
• 22:12
  I start opening my mind of what's this horse telling me, or why are they doing that?
• 22:17
  You start asking the questions.
• 22:20
  You don't come to conclusions, and that's, that's common practice, you know, if a horse doesn't get what we're trying to teach them or they don't respond the way we want them to, then we start calling them names, right?
• 22:35
  We'll start labeling them or we'll start explaining why they're not doing it.
• 22:43
  In within the narratives that we are given, um, so they're stubborn or they're trying to assert their, their dominance over me.
• 22:52
  You know, we go to those explanations that get passed on and passed on those cliche interpretations that may or may not be true.
• 23:00
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 23:02
  And so.
• 23:04
  I embrace, instead of letting myself get angry and frustrated in that moment of, oh, this isn't working out the way I thought, I embrace it.
• 23:15
  Oh, I wonder why.
• 23:17
  And then it seems like once I let down my agenda, and I can be okay in the moment, then I'm, I turn on more observation, I refine what I'm looking at, I'll, I'll maybe go, Okay, well, is it about this?
• 23:39
  And I'll maybe try it in a different scenario.
• 23:41
  So it, it seems like there is a real barrier When we let ourselves get angry or mad to problem solving or to exploration, so that's, that's one thing I think people could really help themselves if they understand what, what practices, what do we do that hinders creativity, hinders our ability to solve problems, gives us tunnel vision, you know, all of those things So that we can be more aware of it, thereby, when we go into those experiences, it's okay.
• 24:20
  If my horse doesn't side pass today, it's okay, but I'm going to walk away from whatever this experience is, and I'm going to glean what I can and be joyful in what did unfold and happen.
• 24:37
  Celebrating the relationship in essence.
• 24:40
  And a lot of letting go a lot of letting go, which is, you know, the opposite of control, we keep getting told so many times we have to be in control.
• 24:50
  We've got to get control.
• 24:51
  And there really is no joy in that.
• 24:55
  And a lot of times it's connected.
• 24:59
  Control is connected to our fear.
• 25:02
  wE have a lot of big names, you know, the big clinicians, the gurus who emphasize control, emphasize respect.
• 25:10
  And it's exactly and and we rob ourselves by adopting those, endeavors.
• 25:20
  We rob ourselves of of joy.
• 25:25
  You know what's just occurred to me, and this is a new thought, so hopefully it comes out in a digestible way, but what a lot of natural horsemanship does with dominance is mimicking wild horse behavior or herd behavior.
• 25:42
  frOm the leader, but after listening to some of the things you've been saying, I think we've completely ignoring all the other relationships that happen in a herd, the kind of parallel ones that don't necessarily involve the leader, that involve horses joyfully being in rhythm together as they trot from one spot to another without any need for a horse to dominate, you know, and, and so I think we've missed that.
• 26:08
  Yeah.
• 26:09
  Yeah, there has been quite a emphasis for a long time.
• 26:13
  And focus on just the dominance component, right?
• 26:16
  And it seems to have weaved its way into everything.
• 26:20
  And it's very little, I find it's very little about really being authentic with a horse.
• 26:29
  And I don't find the more I walk away from that, the more I find I don't really have to use a lot of, you know, brute force.
• 26:38
  I don't have to use mechanical force.
• 26:40
  I don't have to use punitive measures to, to find pleasant experiences, pleasant, meaningful, joyful experiences.
• 26:51
  And you're right.
• 26:53
  There is a whole plethora of social dynamic that happens with horses that are completely ignored.
• 26:59
  I'll give you one example because I'm a breeder and you, you noted that in the previous session.
• 27:07
  I do breed two rare breeds, Fel Ponies and Dale's Ponies, and that has afforded me a lot of observation time because my ponies are out 24 7 in social groups of all ages, from foals all the way up to senior horses, okay?
• 27:27
  And I've witnessed now many foals hit the ground and seen what mom does.
• 27:33
  After she kind of gains her composure and she stands up.
• 27:36
  So what does mom do with a foal typically in like that first 12 hours of that foal getting up and walking around, right?
• 27:46
  And it's pretty consistent.
• 27:49
  There is this influence that's put on the foal to pay attention to her and sort of associate her as like a home base through her movement and gesture.
• 28:06
  And it, the deal gets sealed through, through lactation and nursing.
• 28:10
  Okay.
• 28:11
  And we know brain, brain chemicals are happening.
• 28:14
  When a foal suckles on a mare for both the mare and the foal for bonding.
• 28:19
  But how does that happen?
• 28:21
  And how does that mare let that foal know?
• 28:24
  Yeah, there's horses over there and there's horses on the other side of that fence, but I'm the one you need to focus on.
• 28:31
  She's not round painting that baby.
• 28:33
  Right?
• 28:34
  She's not chasing that baby with a whip.
• 28:37
  What she does, and I've seen it over and over again, she will go around that foal and around that foal.
• 28:44
  So literally, the foal is round penning mama.
• 28:47
  Huh.
• 28:48
  Okay?
• 28:49
  So that's just one little quick example of what you're pointing to is What is all of the other stuff that's going on in the social dynamic that we can maybe tap into to help us understand and create better stories about our experiences with horses?
• 29:11
  I love the way you said that.
• 29:15
  Thank you.
• 29:16
  Yeah.
• 29:17
  No, this is, this is so good.
• 29:18
  These things are so important and I'm, you know, I really am overfilled with joy that both of us, you know, meeting many years ago have traveled down such parallel paths to arrive at incredibly similar conclusions.
• 29:34
  And I just, I want other people to be aware of what's possible and what these can be.
• 29:40
  Yeah, I agree.
• 29:42
  Thank you so much.
• 29:43
  Yeah.
• 29:44
  Oh, thank you for chatting today, Kimberly.
• 29:46
  Is there anything else that that you want to add?
• 29:48
  We have just about eight minutes left.
• 29:52
  I would say anybody I'd like to to maybe walk away with anybody who's like, wow, I'm you've got me you've got.
• 30:02
  Some things there that I haven't ever really thought about or considered, and maybe we've whet their appetite a bit about exploration and finding their own journey that feels more meaningful to them.
• 30:18
  I would explore in interactions at Liberty with horses, and I want to clarify because liberty is kind of another buzzword.
• 30:32
  It's a popular activity right now, right?
• 30:36
  And I'm not talking about trying to figure out how to trick train your horse without equipment or how to perform tasks that are done with equipment but done without.
• 30:48
  Okay, so that's different than a practice of engaging with a horse at liberty.
• 30:59
  And What what can you do and what could be involved for discovery?
• 31:07
  So sometimes it, it could look like where you're following the horse's lead.
• 31:15
  So the horse is exploring, utilizing their own sensory input.
• 31:20
  And you're a shadow and what could be gained?
• 31:24
  What could you learn from that?
• 31:28
  All the way to maybe doing some meditative type work, at Liberty and seeing how that dynamic, is there anything meaningful that comes that way from interacting with those courses?
• 31:43
  So overall, just trying to access your creativity and doing things that.
• 31:54
  You have a hunch might feel valuable or worthwhile to you to do it to explore it.
• 32:00
  And if you're not quite sure how to go about it, there's more and more people that that can maybe help you on that journey.
• 32:06
  Yeah, that hunch that hunch is your intuition showing up and ready to grow.
• 32:12
  Right.
• 32:13
  Right.
• 32:13
  Yeah.
• 32:15
  Yeah.
• 32:15
  Where can people reach you if they want to find you?
• 32:17
  You want to tell just a little bit and you're probably so busy, you're not looking for more people, but if people need you, where can they find you?
• 32:25
  I Am on Facebook.
• 32:26
  My Facebook page is Get Grounded Equine.
• 32:29
  And so anybody that's on Facebook could connect with me that way.
• 32:34
  I also have a a breeding page on Facebook, which is my farm is Fiddlehead Farm, um, Fiddlehead Pony Farm.
• 32:44
  And then I have an email if people want to direct pop me an email, is hay in a bag, that's h a y i n a b a g at yahoo.
• 33:00
  com.
• 33:03
  Okay, great.
• 33:04
  Thank you again, Kimberly.
• 33:05
  I I've just enjoyed visiting with you again so much.
• 33:09
  Thank you, Rishi.
• 33:10
  Have a great rest of your day.
• 33:11
  All right, you too.
• 33:13
  Bye bye.