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Freelancer to Founder: Growing a Team, Without Losing Yourself · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Hello, thank you so much for joining us on this week's Work it Like I'm On podcast.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Amanda Henderson, who is the founder of Thread HR.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I'm going to link to a previous episode I did with Amanda when we recorded it about a year and a half ago, and at that point Amanda was a freelancer and she did a brilliant, brilliant episode which we will 100% link, which was basically a 101 about how to become a freelancer, so how to leave your corporate job and set yourself up as a freelancer, and it had just action, tip after action, tip after action tip.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So if you are listening to this and you don't like working in corporate anymore and you want to explore freelancing opportunities, then go back and listen to that episode with Amanda, which we will link in the show notes.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: But today we're really excited because Amanda has grown.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: She is no longer just on her own freelancing.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: She now has a small agency called Thread HR which supports businesses by providing HR services, and she has grown so she's now got a team.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: So we're going to be talking today about that transition from freelancer to agency owner.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you, I mean, what a great story and happened really quick.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: It did happen really quick and it's really interesting how things happen.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: So, um, yes, a thread HR is scarily actually nearly two years old.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I registered it on um on New Year's Eve a couple years ago and at that point in time I purposely wanted to take my name out of it, so I knew at that point.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: You'd been freelancing before under your own name, hadn't you?
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: yeah, so we'd been amanda henderson hr.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And I was a sole trader at that point which, like I said, it's talked about a lot in the episode about like pros and cons of how you set up as as a first business and that was absolutely fine for what I needed.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, I must have always had a thought that it would be more than me at some point.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: And then September was a real game changer for me this year because I've now got a four and a five year old, so both my kids are now in school.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: And what was previously girly Thursday now afforded me the opportunity to have a bit of a release valve.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Almost Clients were used to me not working on a Thursday, it wasn't a problem.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it gave me this release valve to do my work, do networking, go and get my nails done if I wanted to, and it's just.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: It's funny how things go and hindsight's a wonderful thing.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: But I wonder if there was something sort of mentally that I was just sort of ready to grow the business because I knew this next chapter was coming in terms of the kids and where they were at.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, we started recruiting in the summer and the wonderful Hayley joined us a couple of months ago and then, by like a glorious turn of events, we picked up some more incredible clients.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: I just they're like dream clients.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I can't believe my luck, sort of thing.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we've just been out to market again and I made an offer literally yesterday to another lady who's going to join the team just at the very end of this year, and it's amazing and exciting and terrifying and all of those things all at once.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I would say, oh, I loved it.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I feel, because I said before, I feel we were on the same journey and we're about similar.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: You know um points as well in our businesses.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I was really nervous about moving from me to then having responsibility for paying somebody else basically and like, and then by extension, their family as well as yours.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you reconciled that yeah, absolutely, and that's something that I put a lot of thought into in terms of how I hired them and how we set it up.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So I, as you know, I'm a big fan of you and what you do and your whole ethos.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Um, so I was keen to use the board and to have roles that were as flexible as possible, and I wanted them to be part-time for exactly that reason, like knowing what those fixed costs are going out.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: The business, um, and yeah, that responsibility is is big.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: But I suppose I do I feel that very deeply with my existing clients as well.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: You know, taking people through different processes.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: You know, I feel I'm a very empathetic person.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I feel things very deeply.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So I'm, I'm used to the weight of responsibility, as it were.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: But, as I was saying to the candidates in the process this time, I guess a nice bit about being in a business this size is you have direct impact on the success of the business.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: You're not like a little bit in the big spot in the big.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: You can really have a direct impact and all the interactions, all the bits of work that you do will make a difference as to whether or not we retain clients, whether people talk about us within their network, which has always been the way that we've gotten work, um.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm hoping the setup's going to work for us and that collectively, we can really work together to do some amazing things.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: So what was?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: it.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I suppose you know that prompted you to decide to go from freelancer to agency owner.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: You know, you said you, your children had started school and was there any work.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Were you feeling a bit overwhelmed?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I think the, I think the definitions of sort of freelance in an agency are quite interesting and I suppose I always approach things wanting to present as a business, thinking about things like the branding of the HR.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: You know how we operate, how we do things and I think, because we work on a retained basis almost entirely now, like we barely do any project work, but I wouldn't mind some if anyone's listening and I think I've always had more of a mentality of being an agency and being able to provide full coverage and, you know, cover everyone's needs and so on.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, in terms of going to that first person, we landed a new client again through the network, someone I've worked with three times now.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: So they're a real lesson for punishment keep coming back in their different roles and businesses.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Um, and that was a really good chunk of time.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: It took me to 100 capacity and you know, in some ways that sounds amazing to be at 100 capacity, but actually, as you know, if you're serving clients, 100 the time you're not doing any business development no time to breathe actually no time to breathe, there's no slack if you know school cool or you've got nobody played place to go to, and getting to that 100% I guess I think I had my learning from earlier this year, which was actually one of my quietest quarters.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: On reflection, which is really interesting was when you're quiet, it's too late to do the business development.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to develop quality relationships with people and be part of communities, so that's got to be ongoing.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Of course it happens.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to get into 100%, I would say.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: And seeing that I've had this like release file coming up with Thursdays were like right, now's the time I can do it.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: And also, you talked about responsibility earlier.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: It's not just that financial responsibility.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Like I really want to be a good manager for my team and it would be putting the job adverts.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: You know, 10% of their time that they're with me.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: I want to be coaching them and helping them to develop in their career.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: So I can't do that, um, if I'm at 100% capacity.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: So both those things coming together, I think were key to be like all right, let's um, let's give it a go and see what happens.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: And of course I ran the numbers like of course they make these decisions without running the numbers.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And if you've got an accountant, do you do the sense?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Check with the accountant.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Do you know what?
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I remember seeing that on your job advert and then, since I saw that, I was like I'm going to put something, I hired someone in September and I was like so now we have once a like a check-in with her.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: You know, we don't really talk about work, it's more about her but any tips actually on how to be a good manager?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Now you're managing.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Well, it's really interesting because obviously I've been going through all the processes that I coach all my clients on.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I've thought to them about best practice, what's the best practice in recruitment, what's the best practice in terms of retention?
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: And you know, obviously recruiting well is so important.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I don't need to tell you that?
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: no, but that would be actually really helpful for our listeners.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: So what do you think of the best practices when coming to recruit?
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: yeah, recruit slowly.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And that is a real tension because most businesses, unless you have the gift of a lot of cash flow, you've got to a point, like I did, where you're at 100% yeah, you need somebody yesterday.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did this a while ago.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, recruit slowly is really, really important, and one of the things I hate, uh to see in a recruitment uh process is where people literally just run through a CV and you know, I don't really care.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: To some extent, you know where you've worked.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I want to hear about you, your experiences.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So I love questions that are all around tell me about a time when you did this, tell me about a time when you did that, so you're really understanding what that person has done.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: And then the other thing I'm a really big fan of is really thinking about the strengths and the values that you want in a person.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: So, with the well, both roles actually that I've hired, neither lady lives close to me.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, the lady I've just hired's in Scotland, so she's a good seven hour drive away.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no one's that close.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So I needed things like being able to build a rapport through the laptop, which isn't easy for everyone.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I need someone that was attention to detail, because I'm very time poor and I don't have time to be proofreading stuff.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: And if you know what strengths and skills you want, you can then really tailor the questions that you're asking and even doing exercises to see what someone's got.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: So I didn't in these processes but I've certainly advised clients on.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: You know, if you're hiring an area manager, let's get a SWOT analysis or a business plan from them so you can really assess their approach to things and their way of doing things.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: But yeah, just talk me through your CV.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, worst question ever.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Not interested and actually flipping that.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: If you're a candidate and we've had so many candidates this year it's not been a good year for candidates generally.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: You know the job market has been tough.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: How do you impress, do you think I know, with a CV, and then, once you get to an interview, what was it that stood out for the candidates you ended up hiring?
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of the things I know we talked a little bit about and debated was I did ask candidates um, it wasn't compulsory, but I did ask them to send in a short video about why they wanted the role.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Now, with the role in the summer, you say it's not been a good, a good year for candidates.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I had about had about 80 applicants I think, which was a heck of a lot for me.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, for one person, it's a lot to go through, isn't it?
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know, a lovely problem to have, for sure.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, those that sent the video because I wanted that role to eventually be client facing that obviously gave me a much better idea of how that person might be over the laptop and through the screen Cover letters or emails that really tailor to the role.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you say this to your candidates as well.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people apply for jobs and it's so hard, like you say, and to some extent people start to think it's a numbers game.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: But I would say go for quality of applications over quantity.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe understand what they're asking and then when, if the person who is doing the hiring has really clearly got in their mind what skills they want and you know what they're looking for.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Curiosity was a big thing for me.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Someone that's curious and can drive their own uh, drive their own learning and ask questions to find out more.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: When someone then talked about that in interview, I was like ding, ding, ding going off in my head um, that's employer side, not candidate side.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Um, a lot of uh cvs.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, here's another tip a lot of cvs have got company names on them but I haven't got a clue what they are.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't got time to google yeah, I think unless you work for like coca-cola or mcdonald's.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah so put that in brackets.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, recruiters in the main are time poor, even if you're in house.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're time poor.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: And helping us to really understand why that experience is relevant to this role because it is an HR consultancy, it's a hospitality business or whatever is such an easy win, uh.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I think absolutely, and then obviously you're managing now any best practice for managers oh, so ready, yeah, because I know you do this in your job as well, don't you?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: advising your clients oh, a hundred percent, and I guess.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I guess a lot of the time they come to you because, maybe because it's too late, it's actually this you know, prevent a lot of it might have come directly from a manager.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's often how a lot of relationships start where we're having a bit of a hiccup with someone in the business.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, business needs to understand what to do next.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: And I think a key thing for me in the recruitment process and in the management of someone is honesty, and that sounds really cheesy, but I think it's really fundamental.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: So when you're hiring someone into a role, be really honest, and I'm talking warts.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And so when you're hiring someone into a role, be really honest, and I'm talking warts and all about what that person's coming into.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And one way I did that with Hayley, for example, is I got I offered anyone that got to the final interview the chance to speak with a really good friend, an ex-colleague of mine, matt, who was given an absolute carte blanche to say exactly what I was like to work with.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And similarly, the people that have just been through the recruitment process, I offered them to speak with Hayley, with her given similar carte blanche to say what it's like to work with.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So people really get as much of a feel and almost referencing me in the business as much as you know, I'm inevitably going to end up referencing them when they're hired.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So, be really honest.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: If it's very structured, be honest.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Some people like that, some people don't.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: We're the opposite end.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: We're forming lots of new processes.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: At the moment we've got eight clients.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to move in that mindset of one to two people, getting everything out my head in the right way.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: At the moment, like I'm sure poor Hayley feels a little bit bananas, uh, at times, yeah, I don't want anyone to know that that's coming into the business because that's not for everyone and that's okay.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: So, really honest in recruitment and they're really honest in terms of your expectations.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Now, job specs are quite, quite common, I would say, in a lot of businesses, but there's also a lot of businesses out there that don't have, uh, clear job specs are quite, quite common, I would say, in a lot of businesses, but there's also a lot of businesses out there that don't have clear job specs.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So, exactly what that person is expected to be doing, where are they fully accountable for something?
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: What are they just responsible for?
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: What might they be consulted on in a roundabout forum, on in a roundabout forum, what's the reality of the working week and the expectations, and all of these bits are really, really important in terms of everyone understanding where they're at, but also when lines are crossed.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: We already know what the lines are, so that's not as difficult a conversation at that point really set out from the start what those expectations are.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: So I'm a bit mad for honesty and part of that is we need to find a way to build a culture in our businesses where everyone is comfortable to give feedback to everyone else.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: So, again in the recruitment process, I've spoken a lot to Hayley and the new lady that's joining, subject to sign the contract.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Um, you know I want them to feel comfortable to challenge me back on a process, or you know I've maybe I shouldn't say this on a podcast, but I don't know absolutely everything about HR.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's have the conversation, let's have the debate, let's put a plan together to, you know, to get to the right answer answer, and I'm quite excited by that part of the business and I hope that we're all able to be honest with each other.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the beauty about a small team yes, if you start off on the right foot, it's really hard to retrofit things, and that's another thing that businesses.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: So what?
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: so what mistakes do you see, then that businesses make?
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: So obviously, maybe not documenting things this is me actually just getting this all from a selfish perspective for my business, but yeah, so maybe not documenting job, job descriptions.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I don't think I've documented I would definitely recommend that.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Um, there's bits around assumptions, so I guess that's almost an obvious answer to flip honesty.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: But where people make assumptions that, oh, of course they'll work an extra hour, or of course they'll pick up the phone then, or of course they know what that system is, or you know, I remember seeing on TV that they're done X.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Well, of course this is the same as that, and it very rarely is.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: You know, context is so important to all of these things.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: People have changed, time has moved on and and so assumptions I think are really really dangerous.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Another thing is just people respond to really different styles.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: So one of the questions that I asked in the recruitment process is tell me about a time that you disagreed with a manager.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: You know what happened and what was the outcome, and in that I'm trying to gauge a bit around sort of their experiences, whether people are okay with that direct feedback.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And but even if we've all got a general preferred style, I think the empathy bit's really important as well, and I've definitely done a LinkedIn post about not being like a policy or a manager robot, like yeah, no, like when we've got stuff written down that's brilliant, that's like our foundation, but then we're humans on top of that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So being an empathetic manager and taking the time to do that, I think really makes a big difference, and I mean you'd have to ask Hayley but I think you know my intentional style feels like it's really helped her to come back after maternity leave and to land well in a new job.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I hope you have to ask her.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I will do.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: What's your opinion then?
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Obviously I'm you know I haven't got to ask you this about like flexible working and I guess, because I know that your clients in HR predominantly a hospitality I know a lot of it would be on-site work how are you?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: finding that I guess you know for your own business, then working with them as well yeah, so interestingly and perhaps a little sadly for me, but then also it works for my family I don't actually visit clients on site that often.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: So where clients have got good size retainers, I'm possibly seeing them in person once a month, maybe once every other month.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, so there's not a huge.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: So the two ladies that have joined the team, uh, so far I don't envisage that they'll be doing client visits unless there's, um, you know, something that comes up.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: We get a client in Yorkshire, a client in Fife.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: That would be like lovely, uh, so I don't see that side of it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: For me, the flexibility is more around the hours and the days that people work and what that means, and it's something that I'm really using up a lot of brain power on at the moment.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So Hayley is currently on a little and often so she does a few hours every day and to some extent I haven't minded when she does them, because we can get stuff back in 24 hours to clients or if I need anything, and that's fine.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: But she's been absolutely rocking it.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: So she's become client facing much quicker than we'd expected, which is incredible and testament to her.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: So I'm working in my head at the moment about how how I can maintain flexible working while still retaining really good customer experience and client experience, and I guess I want it to feel like HR business partner outwardly but behind the scenes.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: I think we really need to think about some processes or systems that I'm not quite there with yet where actually it's a bit of a shared service for now and we're all helping each other out to cover each other.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, joining she's on a similar um, she'll be on a similar setup.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: So it's a lot to work through and it's something I've been talking a lot with, uh, with some women in another network of mine, the Athena Network.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, literally yesterday.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I really rate the Athena Network.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: What did they say about it?
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Well, we were saying, like, we have a lot of business talks about lead magnets and getting new clients.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: It's great, within that network, to hear more about how we manage that capacity within that network, to hear more about how we manage that capacity.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: So I'm doing a talk in January about contractors versus employees and pros and cons, but there's a lot around how we think about the processes and connect the dots in terms of what's your strategy?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: How do you want your business to feel outwardly then?
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: How do you make that happen inwardly?
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: That's, yeah, using up a lot of brain power at the moment to make sure we can sustain the service that I'm really proud of, whilst enabling flexible working and what about?
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I mean with your clients as well, because obviously it's hospitality, it has to be on site, are they?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: You know, with this shift now to flexible work, with hybrid working being the norm for a lot of office jobs, is there a conflict you're sort of seeing there and maybe even, like you know, within I know you're not retail, but like boots, for example, they made everyone go back to the office full-time because their shop workers were in the office and they felt it wasn't fair on them.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Are you noticing that?
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: and yeah conflict with the businesses that we've worked with.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, about 80 percent of our business comes from hospitality and then some smaller businesses that are a bit more office based.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Um, but I wonder if it's a size of business thing as well.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: So, with the hospitality businesses, most of them don't have a head office per se.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they face in the sites, they're very present and that is a mix of hybrid and that works really well, which is amazing.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Um, for the more office-based clients, again, the bulk of them are using hybrid in a really nice way and I think something that shouldn't be underestimated, with the power of being in an office and, again, something that I'm really conscious about with my team they're entirely flexible is if you're newer to your career journey, you pick up so much wild spaces from you know, hearing conversations, just being able to turn to someone and be like can I just check this?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: And all of those bits.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So I think hybrid's the way forward in a in a lot of businesses.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: But for ThreadHR it doesn't need to be at all if we can hire these amazing people that we seem to be attracting.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: So far.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: You know, I have no plans for an office for the business no plans.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I don't either at all it's very expensive, but actually I really like working from home in my own slippers and comfortable.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm interested do you know how you built the business?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: So you've go.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: You've mentioned the Athena network.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Have you ever had a coach?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I've never had a coach, but I've been blessed with meeting some incredible uh women and that run their own businesses as well within my network.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: I'm, yeah, incredibly lucky and I have to be careful because a lot of them are coaches as their career and I need to be careful not to like step over from abusing their friendship to using up all of their coaching time.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: But, uh, yeah, I feel very lucky to have a good network.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Similarly, um, you know, xmds, that I've worked with matt, who I mentioned earlier.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: There's some real key people in my life, uh, that have been amazing support more mentors, do you think?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: it's probably, I don't know, like idea bouncers yeah, I wouldn't say necessarily coaching or mentoring, but people that I hope would say we have a mutually beneficial relationship to have those discussions.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And a lot of those people are working for themselves and you know, they know the realities that we're up against.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: When it's just you and I feel incredibly lucky to have those relationships and the bulk of those I wouldn't have unless I'd gone self-employed, like I just didn't network as an employee.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: No, it's such a shame because there are so many magical people out there and uh, yeah, I just wouldn't have met them otherwise.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: So how have you built this network then?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Uh, so I've joined two key um, two key tribes.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: So the first is the HR club um, which is fantastic, so it's like my industry network, and three different um, I get a lot of HR people coming from like we're coaching with me women love them.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: It's Emma Jamil which is DJ.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know, Emma yeah, emma's amazing.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely love her and what she's built, um.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I've met a lot of women through that because you'd sometimes get work referrals like it's a mix of in-house and people working for themselves.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I've met some incredible women through that.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: A lot of them are my hashtag HR heroes.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: They get lots of shouts out on LinkedIn be an eye for quite a long time.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: But not my vibe, that sort of hardcore referral.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: You know referrals are counted up.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: It's not really my vibe and by sort of a happy coincidence, I met some women in the spring that were part of the Athena network, yeah, and a local business network for women that work for themselves and it's it's amazing.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: We've got an amazing regional director, uh, holly.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Give holly a shout out, um, and just the positivity and support within that's amazing.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: There's a super different and I you know I might get some business sort of through it in a couple of months.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: There's some, yeah, but you know, I found great people to do my website.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I'm getting some photographs done and I've just met some amazing people and just having that support on the whatsapp group at events I was an event yesterday with them it's just made such a difference.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Like you're not on your own, and I sort of work through it all.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: I'm always interested.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Do you listen to any podcasts?
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Have you read any books like business?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: oh my god, I listen to so many podcasts who do you like?
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: who's your favorite?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I'm absolutely a podcast addict yeah.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Women's Hour was probably the first one that I got, but in terms of business, uh, careers and leadership with Jackie Jagger and Pamela Langston, I love this town.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, jackie I met through the HR club and she lives about six miles that way, so we meet up for coffee and cake when we can, so that's a really, really good one.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: But I've always been interested in things like Freakonomics and listening around how different organisations work, how they operate.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: You know weird connections.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like the Radio radio four ones.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my friend told me about one that was a radio four and actually um hit when.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Basically it's when shit hits the fan, but I think it doesn't use that word and it's all about pr and it's when something hits the fan, it's not shit yes, yeah something like that.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: But it's all about pr and um how companies obviously big corporates manage their pr.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Disasters often yeah, nightmare from hr perspective.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's quite interesting, yeah, and actually the one I'm thinking of that I was quite interested in was, um, it was just around the election.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: It was all about the private schools getting VAT fees or not, and it was like how the private schools were managing the PR argument.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Um for that or not, for that you know.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: And but has all these different things.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: That will probably be told.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: We're putting that way in November, just after Jaguar have done a rebrand that hasn't landed particularly well, has it at the moment, so there'll be an episode probably on that interesting.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love learning in that way.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: It's, uh, yeah, really good for me so, just before we wrap up, I know that you're in HR and I'm really interested to.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have this question about how to make a flexible working request and you've probably seen that for a lot of people have this question about how to make a flexible working request and you've probably seen that for a lot of your clients and advised on that.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: If someone wants to make a flexible working request, what do you think are the best ways for them to do that?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Lovely.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is just to brush up and know exactly what you're entitled to.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: There was a big change earlier this year where it became a day one request, which is really good news, and I would always recommend with clients to have conversations in the recruitment process.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Get it on adverts if you're open to those conversations.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: It's very attractive, as we know.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, if someone is making a request, the sort of the pendulum's changed a bit, so it used to be much more on an employee as to why it would work and how they were going to make it work.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Now the pendulum has swung back and there's eight reasons that a company has got as to why they can refuse a flexible working request and otherwise they can't of making the request.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: It's got a lot easier for sure, which is excellent news, uh, for employees and will hopefully make a big difference to the world of work going forward.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: But I would still you know it makes sense.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: You're looking for an easy win, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: You're looking for an easy yes is to make it as clear as possible.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I've seen some that are like lengthy paragraphs and you're sort of trying to decipher what someone actually wants and why.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Don't be afraid of bullet points.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I currently work these days.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: I would like to work these days.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I currently do this at these hours.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I would like to do these hours, um, and I don't once.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: You don't have to.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think it hurts to put a couple of bullet points as to why you think it could work.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Just to help with the easy yes, what a company is going to do when they get that request.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: They're either going to say yes straight away happy days or they ought to be arranging a meeting with you, and that's within two months of receiving the request.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: So in that meeting, sometimes people find conversations easier, sometimes people find the written word easier, but you're obviously going to talk about how you're going to make that work.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: And just to know that, it's not uncommon for companies to offer a trial and make sure that it works on both sides.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: And it's again to go back to what we talked to on clarity.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: It's really important and the employees should be really comfortable with this, and that there are sort of success criteria that are mutually agreed.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Before going into that trial, you need to know what good looks like.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: You need to know that this flexible working request is absolutely fine and there are no issues with any of those eight reasons as to why it can be be refused, sorry, and then it can just be moved through.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, don't be surprised if a trial's recommended, but just be ready to agree what those success criteria are.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, and if your employer says no?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: If they say no based on one of those eight reasons, we could actually just clarify what those eight reasons are that they could say no.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a memory test.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, sorry, if things like there's going to be a significant impact on your customers, there's going gonna be a significant impact on your customers.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: There's gonna be a significant impact on costs.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Say, you want to go down, you work five days.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: You go down to three days a week.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: The business still has that need for those extra two days, but actually they can't hire anyone for two days.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Then they get an agency contractor in which is loads higher.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be like a good reason for why, oh, we can't really do this.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: We do need this role to be, uh, five days a week, for example.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Um, impact on your colleagues, which, of course, is right, like we all should be working together to create the best working environment.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, there's a couple of examples there.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: I'll send you a link to a book that I'm reading as well at the moment elizabeth, that jackie who I mentioned before has recommended to me, and it's all about shaping out a part-time role and doing it well.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: So if your flexible working request we've assumed it's sort of reducing your hours but say, for example, it is going from five days to three, what you don't want to end up doing is five days of work in three days.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: No, you're saying you're going to work nine till three or whatever, but then you end up doing three hours of work in the evening because it's just unmanageable.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: And so this book describes really well and really clearly and really simply as to how to really shape that role and make sure that, again, everyone's clear up front with what the ways of working are and what the expectations are that's really good.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: That'd be really helpful.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Then we can definitely put those links in the show notes.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Um, what's next?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: for thread hr.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Who knows, because I yeah, what do you have?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: aspirations.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Where would you like this sounds?
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: This is an issue question.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Where would you like to be in five years time aspirations?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Where would you like this sounds, listening to your question?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Where would you like to be in five years time?
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: oh, where would I like to be?
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, this will be really interesting to listen to in five years and we'll see where we are.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't think I want a massive agency.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Um, in my head I'm like, well, maybe we could get to five people in my head, but how that all happens will all depend on how well I can get, obviously, my two newbies into their right roles, up to speed, all the processes working correctly.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: There's no point being busy fools.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: That's a madness.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: It needs to be working efficiently.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: So I do need to be sensible on saying yes, uh, to more work before we're sort of fully ready for it behind the scenes.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think about five people.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Definitely no office.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Uh, I don't think I want that and I think I would just absolutely love it if it was a team of just ninja part-time people and, yeah, it's soon to be a team of three mums.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: All our kids are five or younger, so we're all kind of in a similar space, but you know, people have caring responsibilities at the other end as well, and so, yeah, just a team of people that are part-time, able to, you know, love their life outside of work, and then they come in work, just bloom and smash it for those.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that and I'm just like it's giving me goosebumps because that's exactly how I feel.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: So how can people connect with you, find you learn more about thread hr?
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: yeah, so uh, thread hr limited.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I think it's our linkedin page.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Our website is threadhrcouk and that is getting revamped and ready for launch imminently, so that may or may not be doing that.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: We are literally I told you, we are literally like business twins um, so, yeah, all our information's there.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: We're super transparent on pricing.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: That's another big thing, like you're not having to go through awful conversations, that you don't have awkward conversations.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's all there, um, and then obviously I'm on linkedin as well.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm amanda henderson, assocks cipd, I think is their full profile.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: There's not too many amanda henderson's out there, um, but yeah, I would love to connect with people.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: And a really nice thing, you know, if anyone's curious about the journey or just wants to chat.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Things are a bit mad at the moment, but let's have a virtual coffee in the new year.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Lovely to talk business with anyone and we will 100% link because that your episode was one of the most popular episodes we recorded and it's literally applicable to anyone.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Whether you're hr or not, you know if you are in corporate and not enjoying working in corporate whatever you do, then the episode that we recorded with amanda was absolute gold about how to work for yourself.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, amanda thank you thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.