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Dispensational Theology · Reformed Thinking

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Welcome to Reformed thinking. So today we are doing a deep
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dive into an interpretive framework that, well, it shapes
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how millions of people read their Bibles.
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Yeah, and it shapes how they understand history, too.
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Right. And even how they watch the
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global news. So we have a really fascinating
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source stack in front of us today.
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We do. We are looking at an excerpt
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from The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul ANZ.
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And you know, this is not light reading by any stretch.
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It is a dense systematic textbook used in seminaries all
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over the world to map out different theological systems.
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Yeah, it is heavy material and today we are focusing
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specifically on the section covering dispensational
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theology. Right, and here is the premise I
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want to set up for you, the listener.
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Have you ever wondered why? Why you do not have to sacrifice
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a lamb on Sunday? That is a great question to
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start with. I mean or why some promises in
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the Old Testament seem completely different from the
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instructions given in the New Testament?
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Well, the answer, according to the system we are examining
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today, lies and how we view the shifting house rules of history.
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The house rules. I like that.
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Let's unpack that blueprint. Yeah, the phrase house rules is
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the most accurate. To start, when we look at the
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Greek word at the center of this entire theological system, it is
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oikonomia. Oikonomia.
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OK. Right.
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If you open a Greek dictionary, it translates most directly to
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stewardship or the management of a household.
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So it is about managing a specific domain.
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Precisely. We can break it down further.
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The root word oikos means house and nomos means law or rule.
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House law got it. Yeah, so this sets the stage for
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viewing world history not as a random sequence of chaotic
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events, but as a massive, ordered household run by God.
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OK. So in this framework, different
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eras of time operate under distinct economies or
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stewardships, right? Yes, that is spot on.
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God acts as the Master of the House, delegating specific
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responsibilities to humanity. And humans act as his stewards
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during different periods of history.
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Right, and the Moody Handbook outlines 2 primary principles
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that makes someone a dispensationalist.
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What is the first one? First, they maintained A
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consistently literal method of interpretation across the entire
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Bible. OK, literal interpretation.
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And the second. Second, they keep strict
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unbending distinction between Israel and the Church.
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So those are the two pillars. I want to try an analogy here
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just to see if we can ground this concept for you guys
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listening. Go for it, let's hear it.
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Think of it like managing a massive generational family
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estate. OK.
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An estate. Yeah, the owner of the estate is
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the same across the centuries. And the estate itself, the
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physical property is the same, sure, but the rules for the
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toddlers living in the Manor back in 1920 are entirely
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different from the rules for the adult heirs managing the family
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trust funds in 2026. Right, that makes total sense.
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I mean, you would not expect the adult heirs to go to bed at 7:00
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PM without dessert. No, he wouldn't.
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Nor would you expect the toddlers to sign complex tax
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documents. The rules change based on the
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era and the designated maturity of the stewards.
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Even though the owner's character remains constant.
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Well, yes, precisely. Does that capture what Paul Ends
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is describing? I like that analogy a lot, but
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we need to add a crucial mechanism to it to make it fully
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accurate to the text. OK, what am I missing?
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It is not just about maturity, it is about accountability and
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failure. Accountability and failure.
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OK, how so? The text provides a very
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specific biblical framework for this concept, highlighting the
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parable of the unjust steward. Oh right, that is found in the
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Gospel of Luke chapter 16 I think.
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Yes, Luke 16. In that parable, we see 4
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distinct elements that map onto every single biblical
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dispensation. Let's walk through those four
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elements. First you have two parties.
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It's a wealthy master who has the absolute authority to
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delegate and the steward who has the responsibility to carry out
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the masters specific will. That aligns with the God and
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humanity dynamic. What is the second element?
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Second, you have specific responsibilities.
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The steward is given a clearly defined job to do.
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They know the rules, in other words. 3rd, there is
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accountability. The steward is called into the
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office to give an account of his management.
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Like an audit. Yeah, an audit is a great way to
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put it. And 4th there is a change.
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The master exercises his right to remove the steward from his
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position due to mismanagement. So the steward gets fired.
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Yes, and when dispensationalists look at history, they see this
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exact pattern repeated. Test failure and judgment.
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Spot on. God gives a test, Humanity
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inevitably fails that test, and a judgement follows.
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And that judgement forces a change in the rules, right,
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leading to a brand new dispensation.
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That is the cycle. I'm glad you added that layer
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because it shifts the concept from just growing up to a cycle
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of probation, failure and consequence.
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It is a very structured way to view the timeline.
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But this brings up a massive question for me, and I assume
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for you listen as well. What is that?
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Well, if the rules keep changing, if the tests and the
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judgments keep shifting from era to era, does God change how he
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actually saves people? That is a huge question.
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Because coming from a Reformed perspective, we tend to view
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salvation as a unified covenant of grace across all of time.
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Right, the Westminster Confession is very clear on that
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unity. So if the toddlers and the trust
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fund managers are held to completely different legal
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standards in this household, it sounds like the actual mechanism
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of salvation might be shifting. Depending on what century you
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were born, yeah, that is a very common critique.
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Does ends address that? He does, and frankly, some early
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teachers in this movement were pretty sloppy with their
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language, which caused a lot of confusion.
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Sloppy how? Well, they sometimes made it
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sound like Old Testament believers earn salvation by
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keeping the law. But Paul Ends is completely
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clear on this point. What does he say?
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He says salvation is always, without exception, by grace
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through faith. OK, that is a relief to hear.
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Yeah, the system teaches that the basis of salvation in every
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single age is the death of Christ, and the absolute
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requirement is always faith. So the basis and the requirement
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do not budget. Right.
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The object of that faith is always God.
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What shifts from era to era is the content of the faith.
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The content. Can you give an example from the
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text? The text uses Abraham in Genesis
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chapter 15 is the prime example. OK, the famous passage where
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Abraham believed God? Yes.
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The scripture says Abraham believed God and it was credited
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to him as righteousness. But Abraham didn't know about
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Jesus on the cross. Well, that is right.
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Abraham knew very little, if anything, about a future
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suffering Messiah, a Roman cross, or an empty tomb.
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He just did not have that data. Right, but he responded in faith
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to this specific revelation God gave him at that moment.
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Which was the promise of a great posterity and a physical land.
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Yes, so the data set is different.
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A modern believer looks back at the finished historical work of
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Christ on the Cross. So the content of what a modern
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Christian is believing is vastly more detailed based on
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progressive revelation. But the mechanics, grace through
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faith, are identical to Abraham's experience.
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Yes, that is the argument. That makes a lot of sense.
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The basis and requirements stay locked in, but the available
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information expands. And that is a good summary.
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Now, while the system sounds highly organized, almost
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mathematical, with its cycles of tests, failures and judgments, I
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have to ask a historical question.
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We are looking at a system that relies on very rigid charts and
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categories. Very rigid, yes.
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So is this a modern invention born out of the 19th century, or
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are there older echoes of these economies in early church
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history? Well, the highly codified chart
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based format we see today is relatively recent.
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You will not find A7 dispensation chart in the 1st
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century. I figured as much.
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Peter wasn't handing out laminated charts at Pentecost.
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No, he was not. However, the source text points
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to several early church leaders who recognize these
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distinguishing economies long before the modern era.
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Who is the first one they mentioned?
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Justin Martyr, who lived from 8110 to 165, is a primary
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example. That is very early, just after
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the apostles. Right, in his writing, called
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The Dialogue with Trifo, he clearly outlines differing
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economies in the Old Testament. Who is Trifo?
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Trifo was a Jewish man and they were debating the necessity of
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the law. So Justin had to explain why
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Christians were not acting like Old Testament Jews.
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Yes, he had to explain why Christians were not getting
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circumcised for keeping the Saturday Sabbath.
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How did he defend that using economies?
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You pointed out that before God made his covenant with Abraham,
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a person could please God without being circumcised.
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Oh, so he pointed to an earlier era.
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Right, and before Moses, a person could please God without
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keeping the Sabbath. So he was tracking the changing
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house rules of the Old Testament to prove a theological point to
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his Jewish counterpart. That is precisely what he was
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doing. I find it fascinating that the
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apologetic needs of the 2nd century forced them to think in
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terms of these distinct eras. Yeah, necessity breathes
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theology sometimes, and it is not just Justin Martyr.
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Who else? The text brings up Irenaeus and
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Clement of Alexandria writing in the 2nd and early 3rd centuries.
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What did Clement add to the discussion?
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Clement actually identified 4 distinct areas of history.
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Did he name them? He did.
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He listed the Adamic era, the Noahek era, the Abrahamic era,
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and the Mosaic era. So he was dividing human history
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by the major patriarchal figures who received these new specific
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stewardships from God. Right then you move forward to
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Augustine in the late 4th and early 5th centuries.
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Augustine is a heavyweight. What was his angle?
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He talked heavily about successive epochs.
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He made the philosophical case that an unchanging God can
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require completely different types of offerings in different
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periods. Like different sacrifices.
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Yes, he basically said it is suitable to offer one kind of
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sacrifice in a former period, like an animal, and completely
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unsuitable to offer it in the present age.
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The logic Augustine uses there is really the core of the whole
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argument. Isn't it is the character of God
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does not mutate, but his commands adapt to the epoch he
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is established? Does NS give an analogy for
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Augustine's view? He does.
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Augustine used an analogy of a sick patient.
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OK, how does that work? A doctor might prescribe one
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medicine in the morning and a completely different medicine in
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the evening as the patient's condition changes.
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Because the symptoms change. Right.
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The doctor's goal of healing hasn't changed, and his medical
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knowledge hasn't changed, but the prescription adapts to the
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specific time. That is a brilliant way to
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explain it. But this raises an analytical
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point we need to establish. Recognizing different eras does
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not automatically make someone a full-fledged adherent to the
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modern dispensational system. So we wouldn't call Augustine a
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dispensationalist. No, we wouldn't.
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Charles Ryrie, a major scholar cited extensively by ends,
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concludes that we should not infer these early Church fathers
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were dispensationalists in the modern sense of the word.
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What did they have then? Ryrie says they held to
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primitive concepts. Primitive concepts, so they saw
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the broad strokes. Right.
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They saw the changing of the 8 box, the differing requirements
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for sacrifices, but they had not codified it into the strict
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overarching structure that emerged many centuries later.
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They saw the house had rules, but they hadn't drawn up the
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architect contextual blueprints yet.
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That is a good way to put it. So let's trace how those
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blueprints actually got drawn. How do we get from Augustine
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musing about different medicines to the incredibly rigid
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mathematical charts of the 1800s?
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Well, the text takes us to the architects of the modern eras.
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We skip forward to the systematizers.
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Who is the 1st systematizer we look at?
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We start with a man named Pierre Pourre.
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He was a French Mystic and philosopher from the late 1600s.
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OK, late 17th century. What did he do?
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He wrote a massive 6 volume systematic theology with a
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sevenfold scheme. 7 stages. That sounds very familiar.
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Yes, he labeled them like the stages of human growth, going
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from the infancy of the world up to old age.
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And what was the final stage? The final one was the renovation
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of all things in the Millennium. So he is directly applying the
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biological stages of human life to the stages of world history.
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He is, but here is the name in the text that caught me
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completely off guard. Who is that?
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Isaac Watts. Wait, Isaac Watts?
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I know Isaac Watts as the guy who wrote Joy to the World.
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Right. And when I survey the wondrous
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cross. The man is a legend in church
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music. You are telling me he is a
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dispensational architect? The text reveals he was a
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theologian who defined these conditional pages almost
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identically to the modern systems.
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I had no idea the guy writing Christmas carols was secretly
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mapping out divine contracts. It is a really surprising
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historical detail. Isaac Watts was incredibly
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precise in his theological definitions.
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When was he writing? In the first half of the 18th
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century, he recognized these dispensations as conditional
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ages where God had certain expectations of humanity.
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How did he define them? He defined them as the appointed
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moral rules of God's dealing with mankind.
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And does his outline match the modern ones?
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His outline is remarkably close to the famous frameworks that
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would dominate the 20th century. What were his eras?
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He tracked history through the dispensation of innocency, the
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adamical dispensation of grace, the Nowakal, the Abrahamical,
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the Mosaical, and the Christian. That is almost exactly the
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Schofield list. Very close.
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The only major difference between Watts and the later
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modern systems is that Watts did not consider the future
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Millennium to be a distinct dispensation.
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But the structural thinking is all there.
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He was looking at history as a sequence of moral contracts.
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Yes, contracts with specific stipulations, promised blessings
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and guaranteed punishments. But the guy who really takes
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this framework and weaponizes it for widespread use is John
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Nelson Darby, right in the 1800s.
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Yes, Darby is a central figure, the text is careful to note.
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He didn't invent the system out of thin air, but he was a
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brilliant systematizer. His background is fascinating.
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Very He graduated from Trinity College at 18 years old. 18.
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Wow. Yeah, I became a lawyer by 22.
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And then he just left law. Yes, he left his law practice to
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be ordained in the Church of England.
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But he didn't stay there either. No, he eventually left that
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structure entirely to meet with a group called the Plymouth
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Brethren. And he was an absolute machine
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of a writer, wasn't he? We were talking about 40 volumes
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of material, each around 600 pages.
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That is a staggering amount of output for one lifetime.
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It really is, and Darby's background in law is highly
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relevant to how he shaped this theology.
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How so? Did he write like a lawyer?
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He approached the Scriptures with a distinctly legal mind.
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He was constantly looking for conditions, clauses and breaches
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of contract. That makes sense.
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He advanced the team by firmly establishing that each
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dispensation places humans under a specific legal condition,
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giving them a distinct responsibility before God.
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And what was his major analytical contribution?
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It was highlighting the inevitable outcome of each
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period. Darby stressed that every single
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dispensation culminates in utter human failure.
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So the legal contract is breached every single time.
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Every time that realization of inevitable failure became a core
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tenet of the theological framework, man is tested and man
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fails. And then CI Schofield takes
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Darby's legal framework and basically makes it go viral.
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Yes, Schofield is the great popularizer.
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And he was also a lawyer, which is an interesting pattern.
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It is He identifies 7 specific dispensations in his work.
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But he does something brilliant for the distribution of these
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ideas, right? He puts his theological notes
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directly on the same page as the biblical text.
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In the Schofield Reference Bible.
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Yes, published in 19 O 9. You know, you have to understand
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how massive this was for the average reader.
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Huge. You didn't have to go to a
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theological library to read a 600 page volume by Darby.
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Right, you just look down at the bottom of the page of the Bible
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you carried to church. And that format popularized the
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system globally. It really cemented it in
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American evangelicalism. In the text notes there was a
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major revision committee in 1967.
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Who was on that committee? Heavy hitting scholars from
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places like Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological
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Seminary. Which shows this wasn't just a
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fringe idea, it maintained a strong academic pedigree
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throughout the 20th century. Absolutely.
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It was the mainstream academic view for a huge portion of the
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church. So Schofield gave us the famous
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list of seven dispensations you did.
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I think we need to walk through exactly what those 7 eras are
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because this is the skeletal structure of the whole system.
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Schofield's 7 eras provide a complete chronological map of
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human history. From the creation of the world
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to the end of time. Let's start with.
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The first dispensation is innocence.
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That covers the Garden of Eden right before the fall of man.
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Yes, and the specific test was incredibly simple.
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Do not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good
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and Evil. But they failed.
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The failure was eating the fruit and the resulting judgement was
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expulsion from the garden and the introduction of spiritual
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and physical death. OK, so that is era one.
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The contract is broken, the steward is fired, and the rules
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change. What is Era 2?
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The second era is conscience. And what is the timeline for
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this one? This runs from the fallen Eden
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all the way to the global flood. What was the test for
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conscience? During this period, humanity was
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expected to do good based on their internal moral compass.
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Because they had the knowledge of good and evil now.
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Right. So the test was to respond to
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God through the dictates of their conscience.
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And let me guess, the failure was massive.
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Total failure. The text notes that the
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wickedness of man was great in the earth, ending in total
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societal corruption. And the judgement, of course,
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was the flood wiping out the vast majority of humanity.
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Exactly. I'm seeing the pattern.
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Darby was obsessed with test failure judgement.
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So after the flood, we dry out, Noah gets off the ark, and God
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sets up a new economy Era 3. Era 3 is government.
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Starting right after the flood. Yes, God introduces capital
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punishment and human authority. Why human government?
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Because the era of conscience proved that humans could not
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self regulate their internal morality without destroying the
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world. God established human
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governments to restrain evil. So the test was to govern
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righteously. To govern righteously and to
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scatter across the earth. But they didn't scatter.
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No, the failure was the concentration of humanity at the
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Tower of Babel. It was an act of unified
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rebellion. And the judgement for Babel.
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The confusion of languages forcing them to scatter.
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That makes perfect sense within this logic.
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God keeps adding guardrails because humanity keeps driving
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off the Cliff. That is a vivid way to describe
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it. So Era 4 is where things narrow
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down from the whole globe to one family, right?
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Correct, the 4th dispensation is promise.
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This covers the patriarchs starting with Abraham.
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Yes, God selects one man and gives him specific unconditional
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promises regarding a land, a nation, and a blessing.
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What was the test for Abraham and his descendants?
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To stay in the promised land and trust the promise.
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But they kept leaving. The failure was repeatedly
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leaving the land, climaxing with the entire family moving down to
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Egypt to escape a famine. And the judgement for that
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failure was centuries of Egyptian bondage in slavery.
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Yes, ending in the exodus. Which brings us to Moses leading
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them out of Egypt. I assume this triggers era 5.
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It does. Era 5 is the Mosaic Law.
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And this covers the nation of Israel from Mount Sinai all the
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way to the cross of Christ. Right.
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This was a highly detailed economy with hundreds of
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specific commandments governing worship, diet and civil justice.
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The test was strict obedience to the law.
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And the failure was a relentless cycle of idolatry.
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Ultimately culminating in the rejection of Jesus Christ as
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their Messiah. Yes, the judgment was the
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destruction of Jerusalem in 8070 and the worldwide dispersion of
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the Jewish people. Wow, so that tracks all the way
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through the gospels. And this brings us to the
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present day era 6. Era 6 is grace.
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Also known as the Church Age. Right.
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This is the current period extending from the birth of the
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Church at Pentecost until the future event known as the
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Rapture. What is the test in this era?
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The test is not keeping the Mosaic Law, but accepting the
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gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
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However, true to the pattern, the system anticipates failure.
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It does. The failure of this current era
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is the apostasy of the professing church turning away
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from true faith. And what judgment ends this era
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of grace? The judgment is the seven-year
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period of global tribulation. And that leaves one final era to
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complete the 7th. The 7th and final dispensation
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is the Millennium. This is the future thousand year
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reign of Christ physically on the earth, yes.
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The test is obedience to the visible reigning king, who was
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literally sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.
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So Jesus is right there. Yes, physically present, but
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despite having a perfect environment and a perfect ruler,
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humanity still fails. Wait, they fail even with Jesus
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physically on the throne? Yes, at the end of the thousand
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years, Satan is released and there is a final mass of
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rebellion. And the final judgment.
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The judgment is the Great White Throne, judgment and the
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destruction of the old heaven and earth, ushering in the
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eternal state. Man, it is a breathtakingly
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comprehensive way to view time. Every era is accounted for.
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It really leaves no loose ends. But I want to pause and take the
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mechanics of how they arrive at these conclusions, particularly
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regarding prophecy. OK, let's test it.
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The core principle here, which Paul and stresses repeatedly, is
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literal interpretation. The literal rule is non
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negotiable for this system. Right.
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I want to expand on an analogy to see if this holds up.
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Let's hear it. If I sign a legal contract
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promising my children a physical plot of land in Montana, they're
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going to expect actual dirt, grass, and a notarized deed.
22:07
Of course they are. They do not expect a spiritual
22:09
feeling of land or a metaphor about emotional stability.
22:13
No, they want the land in Montana.
22:15
If I hand them a poem about Montana instead of a deed, I
22:18
have broken the contract. You certainly have.
22:21
Does this strict legal contractual logic apply to how
22:25
the system reads the biblical covenants?
22:27
Yes, that is the exact hermeneutical logic applied
22:29
within this framework. So they take the promises
22:31
literally. When dispensationalists talk
22:33
about literal interpretation, they are not being dense.
22:37
They are not ignoring metaphors or poetry in the songs.
22:41
So they recognize figurative language.
22:43
We do, yeah, but they expect the fulfillment of a prophecy to
22:47
happen in the normal, customary way.
22:49
Language is understood in a contract.
22:52
So if God promises land, he means geographical dirt.
22:57
Yes, the Moody Handbook points heavily to the unconditional
23:01
promises made to Israel. Like the Abrahamic covenant.
23:04
Right. It promises A literal land and a
23:06
physical posterity. And the Palestinian covenant.
23:09
That promises a physical return to that specific geographic land
23:13
after exile. What about the Davidic covenant?
23:15
The Davidic Covenant promises A literal throne and a royal
23:18
Kingdom. So it is all very physical.
23:20
Their argument is rooted in history because prophecies about
23:24
Christ's first coming were fulfilled literally.
23:26
Like being born in the specific town of Bethlehem.
23:29
Or having his garments divided. Those were fulfilled with exact
23:32
physical geographical literalness.
23:34
So, they argue, there is every reason to expect prophecies
23:37
about his second coming to be just as physical.
23:40
Yes, the promises to Israel will be fulfilled with that same
23:44
physical literalness. Therefore, the word Israel in
23:48
Scripture always denotes the physical posterity of Jacob.
23:51
Always. It is never spiritualized into a
23:54
new Israel or used as a metaphor for the Christian Church.
23:58
I understand the logic, but you know, as someone who leans
24:02
toward covenant theology, I have to push back a little.
24:04
Here, push back. That is what we are here for.
24:07
Well, covenant theology tends to see a unified people of God
24:10
throughout history. Right one continuous people.
24:13
It sees the Church as the continuation and expansion of
24:16
true Israel, grafted into the same tree, inheriting the
24:20
promises in a greater spiritual reality.
24:22
But this system rejects that entirely.
24:24
Exactly, If Israel gets the physical promises, the literal
24:27
dirt in Montana, and the literal throne in Jerusalem, where does
24:31
the modern day church fit into this grand timeline?
24:34
The text is firm that there are two totally distinct programs
24:38
for two distinct groups. So the church and Israel are
24:40
completely separate. The distinction between Israel
24:43
and the Church is the absolute bedrock of traditional
24:46
dispensationalism. How does the text contrast the
24:49
two programs? It looks at specific commands
24:52
and descriptions. For instance, God calls on
24:55
Israel to keep the Sabbath, which is the 7th day, Saturday,
24:58
and the church. The church keeps the Lord's Day,
25:00
the first day of the week, Sunday, to honor the
25:03
resurrection. What about how they are
25:05
described? Israel is described throughout
25:07
the Old Testament as the wife of Yahweh.
25:10
The church is described uniquely in the New Testament as the body
25:14
of Christ. Two different metaphors for two
25:16
different entities. And the timelines for these two
25:18
entities are completely separate.
25:20
According to the system, the church was a mystery, right?
25:23
Yes, in biblical terms, a mystery is not a puzzle to be
25:27
solved. It is a truth that was
25:29
completely hidden in the past and is now revealed.
25:32
So the church did not exist in the Old Testament.
25:34
Not at all. The prophets, like Isaiah and
25:37
Daniel, had no idea the church was coming.
25:40
When did it start then? It was born in Acts chapter 2
25:43
via the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost,
25:46
uniting Jews and Gentiles equally into one entirely new
25:49
body. And the Church's time on Earth
25:52
has a very specific endpoint, doesn't it?
25:54
It does the rapture. Let's dig into that endpoint,
25:57
because this is where the timeline gets highly specific
26:00
and controversial. The pre tribulation rapture is a
26:03
major flashpoint. Why does this system hold so
26:06
strongly to a pre tribulation rapture?
26:08
I know many listeners might have heard that term, but let's
26:11
define it first. It is the belief that Christ
26:14
will remove the Church from the earth before A7 year period of
26:18
global catastrophe. So the Church skips the
26:21
tribulation entirely. Why is that timing necessary?
26:24
The text argues this timing is necessary because of the
26:27
fundamental purpose of the Tribulation itself.
26:30
What is that purpose? Drawing from Old Testament books
26:32
like Jeremiah and Daniel, dispensationalists argue the
26:35
Tribulation is specifically designed to discipline the
26:38
nation of Israel. To discipline them.
26:40
Yes, to bring them through a refining fire so they will
26:43
finally recognize their Messiah. Oh I see if the tribulation is
26:46
an intense 7 year period of God dealing exclusively with Israel.
26:50
Then then the argument goes that it has zero reference point for
26:53
the church. Because the Church's program of
26:56
grace has already concluded. Right.
26:58
Therefore, the Church must be removed from the earth before
27:02
that specific paused Jewish program resumes its final
27:06
countdown. That is the logical outworking
27:08
of keeping the two programs strictly separate.
27:11
You cannot have God dealing with both the Church and national
27:14
Israel simultaneously in this manner.
27:16
But if we pull back and connect this specific debate to the
27:19
broader philosophical picture, we see a fascinating shift in
27:23
how to view the entire Bible. We do, Paul ends.
27:27
Contrast the unifying theme of dispensationalism with covenant
27:31
theology. Let's talk about that.
27:33
Covenant theology generally sees the salvation of humanity as the
27:36
great unifying theme of Scripture.
27:38
Right, everything points to redemption.
27:40
But dispensationalism pushes back on that.
27:42
They argue that making human salvation, the central unifying
27:45
theme of the universe is actually man centered.
27:48
Wait, man centered. Yes, because it focuses
27:51
primarily on what happens to us. So what is their unifying theme?
27:54
Dispensationalism asserts that the theme of the Bible is the
27:57
glory of God. That feels like a subtle
28:00
distinction at first glance. I mean, obviously both systems
28:03
care about God's glory and human salvation.
28:06
Of course. How does elevating the glory of
28:08
God change the practical theology?
28:11
It changes the scope of what God is doing in this framework.
28:15
Salvation is just one aspect of God's glory.
28:18
Just one part of a bigger picture.
28:19
Right. God is glorified when he say
28:21
he's a Sinner. Absolutely, but he is also
28:24
glorified when he executes righteous judgement.
28:26
Or when he sets up a Kingdom. Yes, he's glorified in his
28:30
administration of the angels. He is glorified in setting up a
28:33
physical, political Kingdom on Earth.
28:35
So he is glorified in how he manages the different economies
28:38
of history. Exactly.
28:40
By making the overarching theme the glory of God, rather than
28:42
just human salvation, it shifts the entire theological focus.
28:46
From being anthropocentric or human centered to being fear
28:50
centric or God centered. History is not just a massive
28:53
rescue mission for fallen humans, it is a multi stage
28:57
cosmic exhibition of God's perfect management skills and
29:00
varied attributes. I have to admit, viewing history
29:04
as a multi stage exhibition of God's management is a massive
29:07
paradigm shift. It is a totally different lens.
29:10
It gives weight to the eras that seem harsh or confusing.
29:14
But what happens when someone takes these clear, sharp
29:16
divisions between Israel and the Church and between law and
29:20
grace, and pushes them as far as logically possible?
29:24
Well, the Moody Handbook introduces us to a subgroup
29:27
called Ultra Dispensationalism. Every systematic theology has
29:31
its boundaries, and there are always adherents who want to
29:34
push those boundaries to the extreme logical edge.
29:37
Ultra dispensationalism does exactly that.
29:40
Who are the figures mentioned in the text for this?
29:42
Men like EW Bullinger, Charles H Welch, Cornelius R Stamm, and JC
29:46
O'Hare. And what is their distinctive
29:48
feature? They all radically shift the
29:50
timeline for when the church actually began.
29:52
Mainstream dispensationalists, as we discussed, say the Church
29:56
began in Acts Chapter 2 at. The day of Pentecost, when the
29:59
Holy Spirit so. What did the Ultra say?
30:01
Ultra dispensationalist look at the early chapters of the book
30:04
of Acts and see a massive problem.
30:05
What problem? They look at Peter's sermons and
30:07
see that he is still telling Jewish people to repent and be
30:10
baptized for the remission of sins.
30:13
Which sounds very similar to the old Jewish law in the ministry
30:16
of John the Baptist. Right does not sound like the
30:19
pure grace message the Apostle Paul preaches later.
30:22
So they see early acts as a continuation of the Jewish
30:26
program, not the start of the church.
30:28
Precisely, they argue that the Gospels in early Acts were still
30:32
under the dispensation of law, or at least a transitional
30:35
Jewish offer of the Kingdom. Therefore, they push the
30:38
official start of the Gentile Church of Grace much later in
30:42
the timeline. The moderate ultra
30:44
dispensationalists say the church started in Acts Chapter 9
30:48
with the conversion of the Apostle Paul.
30:49
Or Acts chapter 13. Yes, Acts 13, when Paul
30:52
explicitly says we are turning to the Gentiles.
30:55
But the most extreme followers push it even further.
30:58
Taking their cue from EW, they push the start of the church all
31:02
the way to Acts chapter 28. Which is the very end of Pauls
31:05
recorded history in the book of Acts.
31:07
Let me stop you right there 'cause I want to ground this in
31:09
reality for the listener. This sounds like an incredibly
31:13
niche debate for seminary professors arguing over
31:17
whiteboards. What is the real world practical
31:21
fallout for a believer sitting in a Pew today if the church
31:25
didn't actually start until Acts chapter 28?
31:28
Why does this timeline shift matter?
31:30
Yeah, exactly. Why does it matter?
31:32
It matters deeply because it completely alters daily Church
31:36
practice. Think about the sacraments or
31:39
ordinances of the Church. Like baptism and communion?
31:41
Yes. Bollinger taught that because
31:44
the Gospels in the entire book of Acts were a transitional,
31:47
fleshly Jewish period, the practices instituted during that
31:51
time were authenticated only for that specific Jewish offer.
31:54
Wait, so he argued that rites like water baptism and the
31:57
Lord's Supper relate to the physical flesh and the old
32:00
Jewish system. Yes, he said.
32:02
They are tied to washings and physical meals.
32:04
So what does that mean for the church today?
32:06
Therefore, because the true Gentile church after Acts 28 is
32:10
related to Christ solely through a spiritual connection, physical
32:14
water baptism and the physical bread and cup of the Lord's
32:16
Supper have absolutely 0 significance.
32:19
They have zero command for the modern church.
32:21
Right, the most extreme adherence of this view.
32:25
Reject these practices entirely today.
32:27
They do not baptize anyone, no, and they do not take communion.
32:30
What about the moderates who start the church in Acts 9 or
32:33
13? They might observe the Lord's
32:35
Supper, since Paul discusses it in his letters to Corinth, but
32:38
they still reject water baptism. That is wild.
32:41
It is a radical shift in practice.
32:43
The timeline isn't just a theoretical debate about
32:45
historical markers. It dictates whether you actually
32:49
have a baptismal font in your church building.
32:51
It dictates whether you take Communion on Sunday.
32:54
It shows how theology always drips down into practice.
32:57
Now, while ultra dispensationalism pushes the
33:00
divisions wider and wider, isolating the church from the
33:03
rest of Scripture, the text also details a newer academic
33:06
movement. Yes, a movement from the late
33:08
20th century that has tried to bring the pieces closer
33:12
together. This is called progressive
33:13
dispensationalism. Progressive dispensationalism
33:16
emerged in the 1980s and 1990s as a mediating position.
33:21
Who are the Champions of this view?
33:23
Scholars like Craig Blazing and Daryl Bach.
33:25
What were they trying to achieve?
33:27
They wanted to bridge the gap between traditional
33:30
dispensationalism and non dispensational theology like
33:34
covenant theology. So they are finding a middle
33:37
ground. They sought to retain a natural,
33:39
literal understanding of the prophetic scriptures regarding
33:42
Israel's future. So they still leave in a future
33:45
Millennium and a future for national Israel.
33:47
Yes, they do. However, they strongly deny the
33:50
radical discontinuity between the present Church age and that
33:54
future Messianic Kingdom. What is the key concept they use
33:57
to bridge that gap? The Greek concept here, which
34:00
they borrowed from broader biblical studies, is the already
34:04
not yet framework. I am familiar with the already
34:07
not yet concept, but let's define it based on the text for
34:10
the listener. The Moody Handbook highlights
34:12
the Greek word egekin. Egekin, which is translated as
34:16
Come Near. You see this in Luke 10.9 where
34:19
Jesus tells the 70 disciples to heal the sick and announce that
34:23
the Kingdom of God has come near to them.
34:25
So how do the progressives interpret that?
34:27
Progressive dispensationalists argue this word means the
34:30
Kingdom actually arrived or was inaugurated at Christ's first
34:34
coming. It didn't just get close and
34:36
then pause, it began. Right, they propose A2 stage
34:40
rule for the Kingdom. What is Stage 1?
34:42
Stage 1 is happening right now. Jesus is currently ruling from
34:46
David's throne right now, but he is doing it from heaven.
34:49
So that is the spiritual element of the Kingdom.
34:51
Yes, and he is waiting to return to Earth for stage 2, which is
34:56
the visible earthly manifestation of that rule.
34:59
The material element. That is an excellent summary.
35:02
They see the Kingdom as unified within history rather than
35:05
completely separated into distinct programs.
35:08
So in their view, Jesus's resurrection and his ascension
35:10
to heaven is viewed as the initial fulfillment of the
35:13
Davidic covenant. He is bestowing salvation
35:15
benefits right now as the first phase of his royal rule.
35:18
So the Kingdom is genuinely present today.
35:20
But it is invisible in the sense that the rule does not originate
35:24
visibly from a physical earthly throne in Jerusalem yet.
35:28
OK, I have to challenge this using the critique provided
35:31
right there in Paul Anz's text. Go ahead.
35:34
Doesn't this progressive view completely abandoned the literal
35:38
interpretation rule we established back when we were
35:40
talking about the Davidic covenant?
35:42
You mean the Montana dirt analogy?
35:43
Yes. My analogy about the contract
35:47
for physical land in Montana completely falls apart if the
35:50
person writing the contract says, well you have a spiritual
35:53
invisible ownership of the land from my office in New York and
35:57
eventually in stage 2 you will get the actual dirt.
36:00
It does sound like a breach of contract based on their own
36:02
rules. Right.
36:03
If I am holding a contract for a throne, I want a chair, not a
36:06
heavenly concept. That is precisely the
36:09
hermeneutical dilemma the author points out, and it is why
36:12
traditional dispensationalists reject the progressive view.
36:15
What is the specific critique from the text?
36:17
The critique relies on historical context.
36:20
If you ask how King David would have understood the promise of a
36:24
house, a Kingdom, and a throne when the prophet Nathan spoke to
36:27
him in Second Samuel 7, the answer is undeniably clear.
36:32
David ruled on a physical throne made of wood and gold.
36:35
In the physical city of Jerusalem over physical
36:38
geographical territory. He would have expected an
36:40
earthly dynasty. Exactly similarly, flash forward
36:43
1000 years when the Angel Gabriel told Mary in Luke
36:46
chapter one that her son Jesus would be given the throne of his
36:50
father David. Mary as a 1st century Jewish
36:52
woman would have expected a literal earthly rule that threw
36:55
off the Roman occupation, yes. The text argues that taking
37:00
concrete words like throne and Kingdom and allegorizing them to
37:04
mean a spiritual rule in heaven represents a massive departure
37:08
from the literal hermeneutical system of classic
37:10
dispensationalism. The text even gets into the
37:13
Greek vocabulary to hammer this point home.
37:15
Doesn't. It it points out that the normal
37:17
meaning of the word basila is a royal rule, or the actual
37:20
territory ruled over by a king. And going back to that word
37:23
aidzo meaning to approach or come near.
37:26
It argues that coming near does not mean something is fully
37:28
arrived or inaugurated. If I am standing on a platform
37:32
and an express train is approaching the station, I don't
37:34
try to board it while it is still a mile down the track.
37:37
No, you wait for it to arrive. It is near.
37:39
Its arrival is imminent, but it is not inaugurated.
37:42
The doors haven't opened. The core of the author's
37:46
critique is that blending the Church and the Davidic Kingdom
37:50
blurs the very distinction that makes dispensationalism what it
37:54
is. Because of the mystery element.
37:56
Right. If the church was truly a
37:57
mystery hidden in the Old Testament, as the Apostle Paul
38:01
explicitly stays in Ephesians chapter 3, it becomes logically
38:05
very difficult to argue that the Old Testament Davidic covenant
38:08
is initially being fulfilled by the church right now.
38:11
You cannot fulfill a known prophecy with a mystery entity
38:14
that no one knew existed. That is the logical wall they
38:17
hit. Well, we have covered a massive
38:19
amount of theological real estate today.
38:21
We really have. We have gone from the 2nd
38:23
century to the 1990s, from toddlers to trust funds, from
38:27
Montana dirt to heavenly Thrones.
38:29
It is a huge overview. Let's look at how the Moody
38:32
Handbook evaluates this entire household of thought.
38:35
It provides a very balanced assessment, listing several
38:38
strengths and several historical flaws.
38:41
Let's start with the strengths. OK, on the strength side, it
38:44
applauds the clear distinction of economies.
38:47
It brings a serious order to biblical history.
38:50
It answers why we don't build arks or sacrifice animals today.
38:54
Right. It also praises the consistent
38:57
literal approach to scripture. Pointing out that other systems
39:01
frankly often change their interpretive methods midstream
39:05
when they get to prophetic books like Revelation.
39:07
And it highlights that God centered focus we discussed
39:10
earlier. Elevating his multifaceted glory
39:13
over a strictly man centered focus on our own salvation.
39:16
But the evaluation is careful to address the weaknesses as well.
39:19
What are the main flaws they point out?
39:21
It acknowledges the extreme dangers we discussed with ultra
39:24
dispensationalism, showing how a rigid system can fracture church
39:28
unity. And abandoned basic Christian
39:31
practices like communion. It also admits to past errors
39:35
within the mainstream movement. Like the ones we noted at the
39:37
beginning. Yes, some early or less precise
39:41
teachers wrongly taught that the actual method of salvation
39:44
differed between dispensations. Implying Old Testament Saints
39:48
were saved by works rather than faith.
39:50
Which they have since strongly corrected.
39:53
The text also notes that the movement has historically aired
39:55
by minimizing grace in the Old Testament.
39:58
Sometimes teachers treated the era of the law as if it were
40:01
entirely devoid of grace. When in reality, God's grace was
40:05
incredibly active in preserving, forgiving, and sustaining Israel
40:08
throughout the chaotic era of the judges and the rebellious
40:11
kings. There was also a tendency in the
40:14
past to carve up the Bible so severely that they relegated
40:18
certain passages completely out of bounds for the modern
40:21
believer. The classic example is the
40:22
Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 through 70.
40:25
How did they treat that? Some past teachers basically
40:28
said that is strict Kingdom ethics meant only for the future
40:31
Millennium or the past Jewish offer.
40:33
So they said it is not for the church age and we don't need to
40:36
apply it. Basically, yes, but the text
40:39
notes that modern mainline dispensationalists have worked
40:43
hard to correct many of these historical overreaches.
40:46
So they recognize the legitimate application of all scripture for
40:50
today while maintaining the core framework of distinct economies.
40:54
They would say the Sermon on the Mount has direct application for
40:57
the Christian today, even if it's ultimate perfect
41:00
fulfillment happens in the future Kingdom.
41:02
It is a clear example of the evolution of a systematic
41:05
theology. The modern adherents have
41:06
refined the rough edges. They have clarified the unified
41:09
mechanics of grace and salvation across all eras.
41:12
And they have firmly rejected the timeline extremes of the
41:15
ultra dispensationalists. And they have done all of this
41:18
while holding firmly to their two core pillars.
41:20
It is a literal interpretation of biblical prophecy and the
41:24
strict distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church.
41:27
Exactly. So, since emphasizing all of
41:29
this, why does grasping these concepts matter to you, the
41:33
listener? Why spend an hour digging into
41:36
Greek words and 19th century lawyers?
41:38
It is a fair question. Because grasping this system
41:41
changes the lens through which you read your Bible.
41:43
It really does. When you read a promise in the
41:45
Old Testament, you are no longer left wondering in confusion if
41:49
you were supposed to apply it directly to your modern life.
41:51
Or if it was a specific localized contract for a
41:54
specific steward in a specific era.
41:57
It provides a massive filing system for world history,
42:00
allowing you to understand the specific terms of the promises
42:03
made to humanity across thousands of years.
42:06
And I would add that this framework extends far beyond
42:08
historical texts and ancient promises.
42:11
How so? It actively shapes the
42:13
anticipation of the future. In what way?
42:16
Well, think about it. If world history is indeed a
42:18
series of distinct eras managed and ordered by a sovereign God
42:23
who fulfills his contracts, literally, how much does your
42:27
interpretation of tomorrow's global news, particularly events
42:30
in the Middle East, depend entirely on which economy you
42:33
believe we are living in right now?