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“He loves your ass.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor. In just a few minutes, we'll be
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: talking to the one and only Adam Schiff about a
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: few things he's got going on this week. A little busy?
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: The one and only.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: The one and only. I thought we were booking Jim
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Jordan this whole time. Yeah, he couldn't make it. He's
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: yelling at a wall. He's like, oh, I hulked out
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of my shirt. I gotta go change.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I don't respect his policy on undermining the rule of law.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I do respect his no-jacket policy.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, me too. We're also going to talk about what
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: recent Democratic victories in red states like Kentucky and now
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Louisiana can tell us about the politics of impeachment and
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: break down the brand new Des Moines Register poll that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: shows Mayor Pete way out in the lead. And finally...
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: You'll hear my interview with a good friend of the
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: pod who stopped by the office on Friday, Senator Sherrod Brown. Man,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: big pods today, guys. Huge pods. Love it. How was
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the show this week?
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: We had a great love it or leave it. Joined
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: by Whitney Cummings, Joe Mandy, one of the funniest shows
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: we've done in a long time. So check it out.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Apparently Dion Waiters ate an edible and they had to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: land the plane.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Yes. Heard that. Heard that. Very relatable. Love it. I
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: believe you also have an announcement about a little Love
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: It or Leave It road trip.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Yes. Love It or Leave It is coming to Iowa
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: City on January 30th, right before the caucuses. The presale
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: starts Wednesday at 10 a.m. Central. Crooked.com slash events. The
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: password's Crooked in all caps. And you can come check
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: out the show.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And speaking of Iowa. Speaking of Iowa. Tommy, this is
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: the big week, right?
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Tuesday, the first part of a five-part series on the
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Iowa caucuses will be released. Tuesday's episode is going to
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: focus on Obama campaign in Iowa, the way we structured it,
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: our strategy, and what it meant for his candidacy over
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: the long term, because I think it helps us understand
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: why there's so much focus on Iowa today. And then
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: episode two, we're going to go through all the history
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: of how Iowa became first, and we'll dig into the
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: pretty reasonable arguments that maybe this isn't the best way
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: to pick a president. We'll talk about the good and
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: the bad of the Iowa caucuses. And then there will
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: be four episodes in a row, and then we're going
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: to do one more in January, closer to the results.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: So I've been working on this a while. with the
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: great folks at Pineapple Street Studios and very excited to
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: release it to the world.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: And I will just say, a little endorsement from me,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I realize there's a lot going on this week, a
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: lot of hearings tomorrow morning, but listen to the first episode.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It is so great. It is, you know, especially because
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: all we do is talk about polls and politics and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: national stuff, and when you hear... some of these field organizers,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: you can't help but be inspired.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that'll be the part people like, which
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: is that politics feels bad all the time. But when
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: you're hanging out with a 20-year-old who is dedicating their
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: life to trying to help a candidate win, no matter
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: who that candidate is, it is inspiring and impressive and
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: something worth doing.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Finally, we'll be doing our live group thread during the
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: public impeachment hearings nearly every day this week and on
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night during the debate. Sounds like excited.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Big week of news.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: So you can hear from us in real time while
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: everything's happening. Subscribe to our channel at youtube.com slash crooked media. Okay,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: let's get to the news. With us this morning, House
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Intelligence Chairman and friend of the pod, Adam Schiff. Congressman,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: thanks for being here.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: It's great to be with you.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Mr.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Chairman, we want to start with something that's been troubling
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: us about how you've conducted this hearing. It was bad
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: last week. It looks to be worse this week. You've
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: scheduled these hearings to begin at 9 a.m. Eastern, which
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: is 6 a.m. Pacific. You are our congressman. I live
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: in your district. How can you do this to us?
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: Well, you're just going to have to get up early.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: What can I tell you?
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: But we have two hearings back to back. So we'll
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: be going all morning, afternoon and potentially into the evening.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: So they're going to be long days ahead of us.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: I will say, Congressman, you've made us all very proud
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: out here in Los Angeles, the way that you've conducted
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  Speaker 1: the hearing so far. Of all the testimony and developments
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: from last week, what do you hope the main takeaway
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: is for people who might have not been paying super
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: close attention?
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: Well, I hope people will get a sense of many things,
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: of the seriousness of the president's misconduct, of the dedication
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: of the public servants from the State Department and the
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Defense Department, and elsewhere who came forward against the wishes
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: of the administration, who did their lawful duty, answered a
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: lawful subpoena, and told the American people what they knew.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: That's the way it should be. We're facing, I think,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: one of the most significant and all-encompassing obstruction campaigns that
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: we've ever seen by a president. And these courageous people
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: like Ambassador Yovanovitch and Bill Taylor and George Kent and
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: others that the country will hear from this week have testified,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: you know, at great risk to themselves and their careers.
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: And I hope the public will have an appreciation for
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: their courage and I hope it will inspire others.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: Congressman, the Republicans' defense of Trump seems to shift over time,
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: but a lot of them are settling on a question
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: about the president's intent and his personal motives in this
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: quid pro quo or this extortion scheme. It seems like
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: they are in part dismissing evidence from witnesses as hearsay
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: as a way to build that defense. How will Democrats
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: deal with that argument, since at the same time, Republicans
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: are also trying to prevent people like Mulvaney or Pompeo
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: from Bolton from testifying when they would actually be able
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: to speak to the president's mindset and intent?
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: Well, this is the thing that I think is so
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: difficult for Republicans, which is they are supporting the president's
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: efforts to stonewall. They're not urging the administration to make
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: these witnesses available. A few of them are saying anything
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: about all the thousands of documents the administration was holding.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: And instead, they're saying, well, there should be more direct witnesses.
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: The reality is, though, we have plenty of direct witnesses.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: We have, for example, Mick Mulvaney, the president's chief of staff,
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  Speaker 4: saying on live television how there was a quid pro
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: quo that essentially the military aid was being withheld because
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: they wanted Ukraine to do this political investigation into this
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: discredit the theory that it was Ukraine that interfered in
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: our election in 2016, not the Russians. You have other
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: witnesses who, I think, quite directly, even though their testimony
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: may be limited to discrete episodes, go right to the
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: heart of the president's intent. And Robert Holmes is one
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: of them. Now, I can only speak to his written
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: testimony because that's all that's been released so far. But
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: he overhears this conversation in this restaurant in Kiev, between
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Ambassador Sondland and the President, in which the President wants
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: to know, are the Ukrainians going to do the investigations?
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: And Sondland assures him that they are. And when they
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: get off the phone, the State Department employee asks, and
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: these are not my words, so you'll forgive me, does
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  Speaker 4: the President give a shit about Ukraine? And Sondland's answer is,
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: he doesn't give a shit about Ukraine. He just cares
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: about the big stuff, and that means what affects his
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: personal interests. And That, I think, tells you a lot
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  Speaker 4: about the president's intimate involvement in this, as well as
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: his frame of mind, what he cares about, whether he's
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: acting in the U.S. interests, and, of course, the U.S.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: national security interests are in helping defend Ukraine against Russian aggression.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Congressman, you obviously don't want to wait for weeks and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: months for courts to settle this, but why not at
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: least try to subpoena Bolton and Mulvaney in and then
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: hold them in contempt if they don't show up. What's
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: sort of the thinking behind the strategy there?
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: In terms of Bolton and Mulvaney?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Well, we subpoenaed Mulvaney. So he has received a subpoena
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: and he has defied it. Bolton has told us if
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: we subpoena him, he will take us to court. And
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: this is what his lawyers have said. We're not interested
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: in playing rope-a-dope for months in the courts. We think
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: that Bolton... should do what three individuals who work for
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: him have done, and that is he should make himself
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: available and come and testify. He should show the same
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: courage that those that work for him have demonstrated. They
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: were also instructed not to testify. They also did so
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: at personal risk. They were told in no uncertain terms
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  Speaker 4: that things they say could be privileged and therefore they
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: shouldn't come, but they did anyway. And if Bolton were
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: sincere about his willingness to testify, then he would have
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: come to the deposition when we asked him to.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So right now we've seen testimony from Taylor, Kent, Yovanovitch.
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  Speaker 2: It has been, I think, extraordinary to watch, devastating to
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: the arguments that Republicans have been making. And yet I
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: think there's been this dichotomy in the hearings between the
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: kind of show that some of your Republican colleagues are
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: putting on and then the struggle of the Republican lawyer
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: to actually make inroads into the argument. And I think
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: there's a distance there between the facts that are really
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: impossible to argue with, and the political realities and equities
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: that the Republicans are grappling with. And they're sort of
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: desperate to try to distract from this sort of mounting evidence.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Behind the scenes, is there a different posture on the
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: part of these Republicans? Are there more sort of open
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: and reflective conversations behind the scenes that we're not seeing?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Or is what we're seeing on television the posture they're
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: showing you when the cameras aren't on?
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think, and I certainly, I get
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: feedback from some of my colleagues on both the Democratic
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: and Republican side, including Republicans, senior Republicans, who would come
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: up to me after hearing and say, you did really well.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: That's not something they're going to say publicly. Publicly, they're
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: all attacking me. But others, you know, are more candid,
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: I think, with some of my colleagues and are willing
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: to express their concerns. Some, frankly, expressed their concerns early
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: on in public. Mike Turner, for example, expressed that he
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: thought what the president had done was not okay in
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: that call. But as we've seen the president come down
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: on anyone who deviates from the party line that this
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: was a perfect call in any way, they go after him.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: And so the Mike Turner that we heard in the
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: hearing the other day was a completely different Mike Turner
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: than we heard a month ago. Similarly, the president went after,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: I think, Mac Thornberry. And Mac Thornberry said on the
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: Sunday show that it was not a perfect call and
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: it was problematic. And the president called that a fool's
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: errand to say things like that. And so the White House,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: I think, has been very heavy-handed, skillful, you might say,
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: in so eviscerating anyone who deviates from Trump's orthodoxy that
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: they're scared. And so we see this spectacle where some
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: are auditioning for the president for future roles, potentially, in
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: the Trump administration. Some are just trying to keep their
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: head down, and others are just not willing to confront
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: this deeply unethical man. But how could you watch this testimony?
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: How could you hear people like Basha Yovanovitch and Taylor
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: and Mr. Kent and not be alarmed that the President
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: of the United States was withholding hundreds of millions of
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: dollars that all of us in Congress supported to defend
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: Ukraine against Russian aggression, really to defend the United States
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: against Russian expansionism, and holding it up to try to
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: coerce this dependent ally to do these political investigations. You
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: can imagine how they would feel if any Democratic president
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: were ever to engage in half this conduct.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Two quick things.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: First, I just want to note that this conversation has
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: been chock-a-block with pizzazz, so thank you for that. Second,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Roger Stone was just convicted of lying to Congress to
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: protect Trump. Gordon Sondland had to revise his testimony and
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: may have to again. These individuals haven't demonstrated, let's call it,
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of respect for the truth. Are you concerned
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: about President Trump possibly pardoning Roger Stone and what message
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: that might send to others who are asked to testify?
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I've been concerned all along with the president's abuse
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: of the pardon power in the way that he would
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: dangle pardons over people, like I think he did with
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Michael Cohen, in the way that he would praise people
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: like Paul Manafort, who refused to cooperate, and call others
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: who did cooperate rats, the way he speaks like an
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: organized crime boss. So yes, we have to, I think,
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: all be concerned with the continuing possibility that Donald Trump
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: will pardon either Roger Stone or Paul Manafort or others,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: and the message that would send, you know, I have
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: to say those kind of actions only build to the
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: case against the president for obstruction of justice and obstruction
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: of the Congress. So there's a peril in the president
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: taking those steps. You know, one thing is perfectly consistent
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: about this president, and that is he doesn't care about
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: anyone else or anything else but himself. So, the judgment
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: about whether to pardon any of these people will be
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: strictly viewed through the prism of what's best for Donald Trump.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: And I don't know how to weigh that calculus for
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: the White House, except that they must know that where
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: do you engage in this kind of abuse of the
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: pardon power? He may be just adding to the weight
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: of evidence against the president in a potential account for
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: obstruction of Congress and obstruction of justice.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Do you expect Gordon Sondland to revise his testimony once
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: again this week? It seems like he's in need of
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: some recollection refreshment again.
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: I don't know what to expect. I can say that
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: one of the reasons we want to do these hearings
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: in open session now that we've done our preliminary fact-finding
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: is we want the American people to be able to
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: judge the credibility of these witnesses for themselves and make
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: their own determinations about who they believe is telling the
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: truth and who might not be. I think that the
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: Stone case does demonstrate that we take perjury before our
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: committee very seriously. There are two people now who have
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: been convicted of it, Michael Cohen and Roger Stone, and
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: I would hope that all the witnesses that come before
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: us will be very mindful of their obligation to tell
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: the truth, the old truth, and nothing but the truth.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Speaking of perjury, which is very hot right now, There
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: is reports that the House may look into whether or
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: not President Trump lied in his answers to Robert Mueller.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Is there any truth to that? And can you tell
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: us any more about that?
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the obviously the most important
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: parts of the Mueller report, indeed half the Mueller report,
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: was about the president's efforts to obstruct justice. And if
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: the president lied in his answers to Mueller, lied under oath,
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: that only further substantiates a case of obstruction of justice.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: When we get done with our investigation in the Intelligence
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Committee and we make our report to the Judiciary Committee,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: we as a caucus, in consultation with the Constitution and
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: our conscience, are going to have to determine what's the
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: remedy for this presidential misconduct. And are we prepared to
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: say that this is now acceptable, okay, something that we
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: have to expect now in future presidents, or If not,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: what's the remedy? And if the remedy are articles of impeachment,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: we'll have to consider whether to include among those articles
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: the president's obstruction of justice. And if he lied to Congress,
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: that could be part of that kind of an article.
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: It could be something independent of that. But those are
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: questions for another day. Right now, we still need to
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: finish our fact-finding. But pursuing this grand jury material, and
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: this is the context in which that issue came up today,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: will help inform us on the issue of obstruction of justice.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: So Republicans are telling reporters that two of this week's witnesses,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Kurt Volker and Tim Morrison, will actually help undermine the
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: case for impeachment. Why do you think they're saying that,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: and what do you anticipate Republicans will try to argue
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: in their hearings?
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: Well, look, I'm glad that the Republicans at least had
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: some witnesses that were relevant and could provide important information
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: for the American people. And so we're calling them this week.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: I think both of these witnesses have things that are
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: very damning to the president's case. And so I look
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: forward to their testimony. You know, we've had an extensive
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: deposition with both. Volker was one of the first Witnesses
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: we brought in, I think we know a great deal
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: more now than we did when he originally testified. But
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: I think both of these witnesses have very important testimony
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: that goes to the president's misconduct. And I will leave
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: it to the public to judge who their testimony helps
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: or hurts. But one of the key elements of Morrison's
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: testimony is that in Warsaw on September 1st, immediately after
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Pence is talking to Zelensky, Ambassador Sondland and Morrison witnesses
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: that walks over to Andrei Yermak, one of Zelensky's top aides,
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: has a private conversation and comes over to tell Morrison
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: what was said. And what he tells Morrison is, I
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: informed the Ukrainians that if they wanted a military aid,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: they were likely going to have to do these investigations
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: that the president wanted. That is about as direct evidence
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: of coercion bribery extortion uh... as you're gonna find and
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: why they think that's helpful to the president you'd have
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: to actually ask them.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yes seems bad uh... well i'll just others and where
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: i began i mean obviously you you know have selected
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: sort of the order of all these witnesses for specific
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: reasons what is the story you're hoping that collectively the
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: witnesses this week tell the american people uh... about uh...
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: about president trumps behavior Well, I.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Think these witnesses lay out a long course of conduct
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: that began with the campaign against Ambassador Yovanovitch to, first
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: of all, get rid of this ambassador who was a
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: thorn in their side, who was championing anti-corruption efforts, urging
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: the Ukrainians not to engage in political prosecutions. And, of course,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: what they wanted was for Ukraine to engage in two
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: particular political prosecutions. So they clear the way by getting
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: rid of Ambassador Yovanovitch. They bring in this regular channel
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: that runs from the president through Mick Mulvaney, the chief
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: of staff, through Ambassador Sondland, through Rudy Giuliani, to the
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: Ukrainians in order to essentially bribe or coerce them into
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: doing two investigations that Donald Trump believed would help his reelection,
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: one into the Bidens and one into this debunked conspiracy
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: theory about 2016. And the president was willing to condition
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: a White House meeting that President Zelensky desperately wanted and
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: $ 400 million in U.S. taxpayer funds to help Ukraine defend
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: itself against the Russians in order to get Ukraine to
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: do this dirty work. And I think what the American
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: people are going to have to decide, and Congress as
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: their representatives, is are we prepared to say that that's
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: somehow now compatible with the oath of office, that a
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: president can abuse... his power this way? And at the
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: end of the day, I keep coming back to what Mr.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Holmes said, and that is if the president of the
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: United States doesn't care about our defense or Ukraine's defense,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: only cares about his personal interests, That's a profound danger
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: to the country, and we're going to have to decide
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: what needs to be done about it. So I hope
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: that Americans are watching. I think they are, and that
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: they will help inform their representatives about what they think
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: our response should be.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Congressman Schiff, we really appreciate you coming on. Thanks for
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: the time, and best of luck this week.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: You take care. We will be back with more news.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: All right. So, uh, we talked about this a little
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: with Congressman Schiff, but I wanted to get, uh, your
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: reaction to Friday's hearing with ambassador, uh, Marie Yovanovitch, who
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Trump fired after Rudy Giuliani, uh, his indicted Russian mobster
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: friends and a bunch of corrupt Ukrainians orchestrated a smear
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: campaign against her because she was standing in the way
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: of the bribery and extortion scheme. Um, I'll be honest,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I hadn't thought that this hearing would be a huge
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: deal because she didn't have as direct a connection to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the specific scheme. But I thought her testimony was incredibly
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: powerful because I thought her entire career as a nonpartisan
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: diplomat who served her country in dangerous places and fought
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: corruption in Ukraine stood as such a stark contrast to
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: the deeply corrupt man and men who destroyed that career.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: And so, I don't know. Tommy, what was your reaction
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: to the hearing?
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think we all have to remember that
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: people who get to the rank of ambassador are the
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: best of the best in the Foreign Service. You have
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: risen through the ranks. You're like a three-star or a
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: four-star general. So these are like unbelievably seasoned, accomplished professional
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: people who often work in dangerous places. So it is
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: really nice that that did break through. But then you
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: can contrast that with the like three amigos or the,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you know, or Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman and the
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: fraud guarantee gang who are cooking up a James Bond
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: mission at a Hanukkah party at the White House is
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: the channel two diplomacy. And I think it, it speaks
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: to one, the just idiocy and absurdity of what the
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Trump administration was trying to do and just how brazenly
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: corrupt what they were working on was.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Love it. What'd you think? Yeah.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that what's striking about these hearings,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: the two hearings we saw, right, we had Kent and Taylor,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: and obviously there was a, Twitter hubbubaloo about whether or
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: not it was dramatic enough. And then we had Yovanovitch
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: and Taylor and Kent helped really establish the fact pattern
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: so clearly about the wrongdoing. But of course, we're going
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: into these hearings where the wrongdoing is self-evident and, you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: corroborated on multiple fronts by virtually every witness with any
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: kind of honesty. And you can have the dishonest witnesses
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: who've had to revise their testimony because the evidence boxed
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: them in. And so there's sort of two things going on.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: One is building the fact case. And that's like it's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: it It's a bit like, you know, Democrats are trying
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to get weight on one side of a seesaw and
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Republicans are kind of screwing their side of the seesaw
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: to the ground because they know that like there's just
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: so much evidence against them. And what was striking about
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Yovanovitch is put all that aside. The case is the
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: case and it's pretty fucking clear. This is a righteous person.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And there was a there was a moment that I'll
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: always remember when the Republicans said to her, you know,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: doesn't the president have the right? to have the ambassador
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: he wants. And she says, yes, of course, but why
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: did he have to smear me? And it was this
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: incredible moment of a woman who gave her life into
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: the service of this country and says several times in
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: these hearings that all she has is her reputation. And
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: she saw that shredded by this president. And it's only
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: by dint of impeachment that she's had the opportunity to
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: make her case publicly and to be redeemed. And Twitter,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: social media, the way politics is covered, it's designed to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: make you cynical. It's designed to make you feel as
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: if your sentiments are somehow unearned or childish or naive.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: She went to a jazz club at the end of
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: her tough week and she got a round of applause.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And there was something so wholesome about that. This woman
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: had a really hard week and she just wanted to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: unwind with some jazz. And she went and they gave
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: her a round of applause. And like, you know, I
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: think what we're seeing in this week, to me, my
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: takeaway was that this was a revolt of people with
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: integrity against people who don't have it. And it has
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: been nice to see that that honorable behavior, that righteous
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: behavior still has currency, still can get a foothold in
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: our politics.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was an important point that, because
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the Republicans are obviously trying to say, we're trying to
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: say during that whole hearing, president can fire whoever he wants.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: That's the deal, right? And then they tried to do
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: the whole like, you still have a job, don't you?
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Aren't you still happy? That was the most condescending thing.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: You weren't marched down the street while someone rang a
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: shame bell.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And I think the reason besides everything that you just said, Lovett,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: why she was a powerful witness, the reason I think
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: she was an important witness for the case against Trump
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: is she would agree and the Democrats would agree, of
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: course the president can fire whoever he wants at any time.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: And of course... Like, if you have disagreements on policy,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: on foreign policy especially, with the people who are serving
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: you abroad, you can make changes or stuff like that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And this is someone who has worked under Republican and
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Democratic administrations, and many of these career service officers, career ambassadors, like,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to agree with the policy of
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the president that they're serving, but they're diplomats for America,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: and they carry out that policy to the best of
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: their ability. And basically what she's saying, what the Democrats
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: are saying is, all that aside, What the president cannot do,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: must not be able to do, is get someone out
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: of the way, fire someone purely for their own personal
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: political interests to basically run this bribery and extortion scheme.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: That's the problem.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: If he was so confident in his ability to fire
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: anyone he wants at any time he wants, why cook
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: up a pretext that smears her character and accuses her
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: of a bunch of things she didn't do? He undercuts
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: his own argument in the process of making it. And
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: then he goes on to attack her in the middle
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: of the hearing itself and blame her for the problems
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: that exist politically in Somalia. It was just so fucking
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: absurd and childish and outrageous. And, you know, he's now
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: attacked at least four witnesses in the impeachment inquiry, Bill Taylor, Yovanovitch,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: Alex Vindman, not by name. And then he, over the weekend,
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: he attacks Mike Pence's current aide and the best that pathetic,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: sniveling Reagan impersonator could do in response is state.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: She works at the State Department. Well, guess what, buddy?
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: All NSC staffers, by and large, the mass majority of
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: National Security Council staffers are details from other agencies.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: So she currently works for you. Yeah. I mean, there
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: was so, you know, Trump does this during the hearing.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, this Maria Ivanovich, right? Like part of the
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: hearing is about how Trump on the phone call with
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Zelensky called her bad news, said that she's going to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: be going through some things. And so Schiff is asking
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: her how that felt. And she she answers, as you
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: talked about, love it and saying, like, you know, why
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: does he have to smear my reputation? That's all we have.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: This has been a painful period. She talked about her
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: friend saying that the color actually went from her face
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: when she read the transcript. And then as that's happening,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: he sends that tweet. And, you know, there was this
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: whole debate. Is this witness intimidation? Should Democrats add that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: to the impeachment case? I don't know if, you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: you've talked about this before, Tommy, like, I don't know
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: if we need to get into the legal weeds about
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: what's witness intimidation or what's not. Like, what we do
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: know is this is a case we're trying to make
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: to the public about impeachment and a case that we're
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: trying to make to Republicans. And if the president is
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: attacking witnesses while they're testifying or before, like, and every
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: single person who works for him who then says the truth,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: is suddenly a never-Trumper who deserves to be attacked. Like,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: whether you add it to the articles of impeachment or not,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: it doesn't look too good. And also, they're trying to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: out the whistleblower, right? His allies are.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: His son tweeted the name of an individual he thought
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: to be a whistleblower. Steve King tweeted a picture of
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: one of George Soros' kids who has never worked in government,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: but that didn't stop him from, like, So we also
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: we have this pattern and we also saw fairly recently
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: that a crazy MAGA guy was willing to send pipe
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: bombs to a bunch of people he perceived as enemies.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: So I think we should be a little more careful
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: with our words when we're the president of the United States.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a few other parts of her
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: testimony that were worthwhile in building the case against Trump.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: She testified that there wasn't a shred of legitimacy to
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the conspiracy theory that Ukraine meddled in 2016, which she
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: would know because she was the ambassador there. And and
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: she also testified that Joe Biden was, in fact, fighting
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: corruption when he got that prosecutor fired and carrying out
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: the wishes of not only the Obama administration, but the
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: global community. And like George Kent said, yeah, there could
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: have been a potential conflict of interest with Hunter being
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: on the board. But remember, because this kind of gets
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: lost in a lot of the in a lot of
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: the coverage. Donald Trump and Giuliani didn't just want an
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: investigation into Burisma itself or to Hunter Biden himself. They
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: wanted the investigation into Joe Biden pushing for the firing
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: of the prosecutor in the Burisma case. Right. And so
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and every single person who's testified without fail has said
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden did the absolute right thing in firing that prosecutor. So,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: you know, we had to go through this whole thing
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: was like there's no evidence that Joe Biden did anything wrong.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, no, it's not just no evidence. Joe
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Biden did the right thing. He was fighting corruption when
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: he did that. So I think that I thought that
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: was pretty important. So since Yovanovitch's testimony, there has been
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: three additional Trump administration officials who testified in private. Jennifer Williams,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: as you pointed out, Tommy, an aide to Mike Pence,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: who was on the call with Trump and Zelensky and
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: testified that it was, quote, inappropriate. Tim Morrison, a White
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: House national security aide who testified that Sondland did not
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: exaggerate how closely he worked directly with Donald Trump, and
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: David Holmes, an American diplomat in Ukraine who overheard a
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: phone call where Trump asked Sondland, So, President Zelensky is
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: going to do the investigation? To which Sondland said, Mr. President,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Zelensky loves your ass.
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: No, no, no.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Loves your ass. Get it right. CNN got it right.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: He loves your ass.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Do we know that? Loves your ass.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: Mr.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: President, he loves your ass.
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: Mr.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: President, he loves your ass.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: It was so funny watching the CNN.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: He loves your ass.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: The CNN people got it wrong over and over. The
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: emphasis was on ass the whole time. And I don't
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: think that's what was made. Watching Phil Mattingly and CNN,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: that's the clip that, of course, made John Oliver last
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: night too. It's gone everywhere. And it's just Phil Mattingly
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: reading it. And it's almost like he read it for
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the first time and he's like, Uh, Zelensky loves, loves
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: your ass. Anyway, it's love, loves your ass. Dark times.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: We need this. Zelensky loves your ass and would do
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: anything you ask him to. Holmes also testified that Sondland
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: told him, as we heard from Congressman Schiff, that Trump
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: didn't quote, give a shit about Ukraine and cared only
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: about the big stuff like the Biden investigation. Um, love it.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: How does this phone call between Sondland and Trump strengthen
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: the case for impeachment?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's just, uh, it's making it stronger. And,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and we all know that, uh, Of course, we knew
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: that before we actually got more evidence about what was
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: happening in the call. I mean, what I what I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: what I see happening now is it's Republicans aren't trying
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: to get to the truth through these hearings. They're just
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: trying to get out of a maze. They're just trying
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to get out. And with each passing hearing, a door
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: comes down and blocks an exit.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: The whistleblower is a hardcore partisan Democrat.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Door closes.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what the whistleblower says. We have the
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: transcript and it's corroborated by every other piece of evidence.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Everything you're saying is hearsay. Door comes down. Actually, Sondland
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: spoke to him directly and he's going to testify. Rudy
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Giuliani and Sondland are the masterminds behind all of this.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Door comes down. We have more evidence that Donald Trump
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: was directing this. And at each day, more and more
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: of their exits are blocked off. And I think that
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: that has, you know, the case is getting stronger.
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: But it's getting harder and harder for Republicans to find
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: things to say out loud in these hearings.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. How important, Tommy, is Sondland as a witness right now?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Because it does seem like he's the one that will
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: testify that has the most direct connection to Trump and
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: communication with Trump.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I think he is incredibly important. You don't have to
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: be a good person to be a good witness. And
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: that was kind of why initially when everyone was singing
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: the praises of some of the earlier witnesses, it made
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: me a little bit nervous. Like, yes, it's very impressive
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: to have a record of service to the country and
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: military service and all these credentials. But like scumbags and
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: rats and liars can provide helpful information. And that might
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: be what Gordon Sondland is. But we also know like
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: a record that this call happened exists because that's how
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: phones work, right? If you call someone, there's a record
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: of it. We should also note that if you're a
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: senior U.S. official taking a call in Kiev, the Russians
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: are collecting the contents of that phone call. Remember Torian Newland,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: who was a senior official for the Obama administration, State Department,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: she got her call collected, recorded and released by the
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Russian government back in the day. So Just, you know,
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: another thing, since operational security was such a big deal
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: in the 2016 election, we should remember.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard some people say, well, you know, Sondland's
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: credibility is in question. What kind of witness is he
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: going to be? And like, if it was just Gordon
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Sondland alone giving recollections, refreshing those recollections, getting himself out
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: of perjury, that would be one thing. Just about every
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: witness who's already testified has had direct contact with gordon
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: sonlin and is they're all telling the same story right
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: people heard the call right so if you're saying that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: like you don't trust gordon sonlin that's fine but two
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: people heard the call tim morrison uh as shift told
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: us you know was with him in warsaw when he
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: said the aid is conditioned on the investigations uh bill
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: taylor had the text with him volker had the text
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: with him like it doesn't really we have enough other
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: people testifying that what is it it's like The word
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: of eight or nine witnesses under oath against Gordon Sondland,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: who's already had to revise his testimony. Yeah.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just the sheer number of people that
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: have to be lying in order for a innocent version
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: of these events to be true or extraordinary.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, the other piece of this, too, is just
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Gordon Sondland was a Trump guy to Trump. There's a
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: reason he brings up ASAP Rocky to Gordon Sondland. Gordon
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Sondland was just somebody he seems to like to have
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: talked to. that the reports that Gordon Sondland was actually
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: in a kind of running conversation with Donald Trump is
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: being borne out, right? There were questions as to whether
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: or not Sondland was exaggerating how often he talked to Trump.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: It seems that that's not the case. You know, Trump
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: only really likes talking to a certain kind of person.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And Gordon Sondland is that kind of person, a rich
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: white guy who knows how to hang. I mean, that's
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: really what's going on here. And so he would call
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: him and talk to him about what was on Sondland's plate,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: but also it was on Trump's plate. And what we
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: were learning is that is a big part of where
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: this conspiracy is. to extort the Ukrainian government was unfolding.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I think Gordon Sondland has some pretty important decisions to
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: make this week. I don't know if he's already made
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: them or not, but I mean, he's already revised his
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: testimony once. Clearly, he's going to need to either say,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I need to revise it again. I misspoke. I mean,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: he lied. He already lied. So he's going to have
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: to either revise it again or another option that I
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: read he could do is he could plead the 5th.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: which wouldn't get us very far. Or he could, you know,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: in the face of all of these other witnesses who
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: testified to the contrary, keep lying, I suppose. But like,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: you know, we could be headed to a Michael Cohen-esque
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: public confession here on Wednesday that sort of, you know,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: lays the whole case out. Right.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: It's worth remembering that, you know, one of the great
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: natural defenses we've had against the Trump administration are the
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: kind of people that are willing to work with Trump
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: or the kind of people that are willing to work
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: with Trump. And so, Yeah, sure, there are Trump loyalists,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: whatever that phrase means. But really what that means is
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: they're loyal to their own interests. Gordon Sondland forked over
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: a million dollars. It was the worst million dollars he's
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: ever spent.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Worst possible.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: It just got down the fucking tubes. He basically says
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: it all the time. He just got far more than
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: he bargained for. Gordon Sondland doesn't need anything from Donald Trump.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: He's a wealthy man. He doesn't need a sinecure on
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Fox News. He's not a member of Congress. He can't
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: be primaried. He just wants to get the fuck out
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Go back to his hotels.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: And go back to his hotels with some portion of
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: his dignity and reputation.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's what he said.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Listen, he's trying to get out of this with whatever's left.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Go with God, Gordo.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: And so to me, I see that. And I think
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I see somebody who is going to not want to
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: go down with the Trump ship.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I do want to, before we go on, just stop
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about the story that you referenced, Tommy,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: from CNN that broke on Friday that really hasn't gotten
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: much coverage because of all the other shit that's happened
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: over the weekend. According to the friends of indicted Giuliani
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: goon Lev Parnas, Donald Trump pulled Parnas and Igor Fruman,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: his partner, aside during the White House Hanukkah party and
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: gave them a secret... James Bond mission from the president
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: is how it was described. A secret mission, James Bond
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: mission from the president to carry out his Ukrainian bribery
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: scheme involving fake investigations into Joe Biden. These are mobsters
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: who've just been indicted for campaign finance felonies that are
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: being pulled aside at the White House Hanukkah party and told,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: you're my guys to go do this.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Here's the craziest thing. There was only actually enough corruption
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: to last one night. but it actually, the corruption managed
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: to last eight nights. And that's like a pretty like
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: miraculous thing.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: You know, and to, yeah, to that end, love it.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: The Washington Post reported that in April, 2018, there was
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: a small fundraising dinner at Trump's hotel and Parnas talked
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: to Trump then about Yovanovitch. So like there's a longer
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: paper trail and just, you know, for shits and giggles
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: the day before the Hanukkah party, Giuliani brought Parnas as
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: his guest to the funeral of former president George H.W.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Bush. So, Everything about this is weird.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a hot ticket.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: He's lonely.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: He's a divorced man who needed a plus one. I
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: don't let's not indict him for being sad.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I sort of think that the Democrats and they might
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: be planning this. We should ask Schiff. But I think
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: they should call Parnas to testify since he seems willing
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: to testify. And to your point, Tommy, these don't they
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: don't need to all be upstanding public servants because. Parnas
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: was clearly in the middle of this plot. There's clearly
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: ways to corroborate whatever testimony he offers. And there are
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: enough stories out there, right, that people who are currently
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: under indictment were carrying out this plot and also trying to,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you know, grift on the side, too.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I think it would be very,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: very bad for the Republicans to have to interrogate those two.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: You know, one thing we've noticed in our polls, you know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: we look, we get into the details of what's happening
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: in these hearings and then, you know, you look at
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: the polling about how impeachment is faring and obviously impeachment
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: is getting more and more kind of popular with people.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But you dig into the numbers and you sort of wonder,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it seems like the parts of what Trump did that
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: sound the crimiest are the things that people think are
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: the worst thing to do, right? You introduce words like tampering, intimidation, right?
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Words that in people's minds, wait, yeah, those are things
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I associate with criminality. They tend to look the worst.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I can't think of anything that would look worse for
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump than these two fucking goons sitting in front
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of Congress talking about the Hanukkah party and their secret mission.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just it just it's they might as
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: well be inside of the Watergate with flashlights.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: It's a great story. So it was already a bad
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: week for Trump. We didn't even we did. Yeah, we did.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: It is the fourth impeachment in American history.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: We didn't even but we didn't even really talk about
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Roger Stone being found guilty on seven counts for obstructing
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: the Mueller investigation and lying specifically about Trump's connection to
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: the democratic emails that Russia stole in 2016. Uh, he
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: could face up to 50 years in prison. So that's happening. Um,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: but then after all of that last week on Saturday,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: the Republican candidate, the Trump campaign for in the Louisiana
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: governor's race, a state where he won by 20 points
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: in 2016, uh, lost to democratic incumbent, John Bell Edwards
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: by about two and a half points. Um, so first
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: of all, we should thank everyone who, um, went on
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Vote Save America and volunteered in that race, organized in
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: that race. One of the big reasons that Edwards won
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: was because of increased turnout, especially increased African-American turnout, increased
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: turnout in the suburbs around New Orleans and some of
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: the other major cities. So that's great. And not only
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: did the Democratic governor win again, but Democrats prevented Republicans
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: from winning a supermajority in the state legislature there, which
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: means that Democrats will absolutely have a hand in drawing
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the maps in 2021, which is part of our Fuck
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Jerry Fund. Yeah, we could pick up another seat there.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, look, I'm no expert on either Kentucky or
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Louisiana politics. I think we could have a longer conversation
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: about the relative strength of the candidates involved in these races.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: But we all do know that there is a narrative
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: that is over all of this. And a lot of
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: people in D.C. were excited, if not eager to say
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: that if all of these Republican governors won, impeachment was
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: the reason why, and it was a mistake to do so.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: They were floating this theory, and then the exact opposite happened.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: So Trump does not look like a particularly strong president.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: Certainly he can't will a candidate to victory like he used.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: To argue he could. And I will say, we cannot
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: repeat enough the fact that Trump campaigned in both of
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: these states and tried to make the campaign about impeachment.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: The candidates he campaigned for in both states tried to
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: make it about Trump and tried to make it about impeachment.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: These are deep red states that he won by 30
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: points and 20 points and he couldn't do it. And
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: you were just talking about that narrative, Tommy, like that
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: narrative is so deeply ingrained because reporters have always believed
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: that impeachment was a bad idea. And one of the
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: reasons that reporters have believed it was a bad idea
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: is because in fairness, A lot of the Democrats in
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Congress for a long time thought it was a bad
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: idea too. And polling suggested it was a bad idea.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: And polling suggested it too. So this will come back
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: up because if Republicans decide to acquit Donald Trump, if
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: they stick with him, we're going to get a whole
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: other round of stories. Is this going to be bad
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: for Democrats? We can't forget that we just had two
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: elections in the middle of this in deep red states
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: and it just wasn't good. Also, we should talk about
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: the new ABC poll out this morning. 70% of Americans
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: now think Trump's request to a foreign leader to investigate
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: his political rival was wrong. 51% say it merits impeachment
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: and removal. Another 6% say it warrants impeachment, but not removal.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: And only 25% think Trump did nothing wrong, which I
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: think are pretty good numbers.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: It's also worth noting, I think in that poll that
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: something like either 21 or 25% of people just.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Really hadn't heard about it yet.
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So that's really the.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Goal of this impeachment inquiry is to make sure those
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: people know what's happening because Boy, it seems hard to
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: believe that you could not have heard about the president
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: of the United States getting impeached, but happens to be true.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: It's what a world.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: Listen.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: It would be so nice.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: They're not listening to this. They're not listening to anything.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: But my goodness, to live in a world where you
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: just found out Donald Trump got impeached, I want to
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: go there. I want to visit you. I want to
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: experience it. I want to take a vacation to that life.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, to that point, so 58% in the
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: poll say they're following the hearings very or somewhat closely. Mm-hmm.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of the 21% who are following impeachment hearings very closely,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: 67% of that crowd think Trump should be impeached and removed.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Now you can say, is that causation or are those
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: people more likely to watch the hearings? But the party
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: breakdown in the people who are watching very closely is
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: pretty even. Slightly more Democrats, but it's pretty even. So
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: at the very least, what we can say is what
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: the Republicans are doing during those hearings is not working.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: It's not persuading.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: I will also say I have made it a point
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: to try to watch some Fox News throughout these hearings,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: because like it or not, I actually think it's an
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: incredibly important, you know, the way Fox News covers this
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: impeachment is probably more important than the way CNN does
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: and more important the way MSNBC does, because Fox News
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: is where they can protect themselves the most. And a
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: lot of that coverage has been pretty straight. Brett Baier,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Chris Wallace, You know, they've had some very silly chyrons
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: throughout the hearings, but they're playing the hearings in full.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Those hearings speak for themselves. Some of their conversation in
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: the middle, they are really at a loss for how
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: to defend the president. A few people trying to find
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: ways to throw to what the Republicans are doing. But,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: you know, that to me is at least a sign
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: that impeachment has not only wrested the microphone from Donald Trump,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: it's in part wrested it from the propaganda machine. That's
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: not speaking, look, what's happening between 8 and 11 on
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Fox News continues to be a true horror, but Nonetheless, where.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: They're having trouble is when they do live coverage, sometimes
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: it's so stark what's happening in those hearings that it's
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: hard to do their bullshit. And by nighttime, they've cleaned
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: it up. And so I do think once the hearings
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: are over, they'll close ranks again and we'll get the
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: usual Fox News. But it's interesting that they're having a
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: hard time when faced with this testimony live saying anything
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: but the truth, at least some of them, a few
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: of them. All right, let's talk about 2020. On Saturday night,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: the gold standard of Iowa polls from the Des Moines
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Register showed Mayor Pete Buttigieg gone from 9% in September
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: to 25% now and has taken the first clear lead
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: in the Iowa caucuses, according to that poll. After Pete,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: it's a three-way tie with Elizabeth Warren at 16%, and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders at 15%, Amy Klobuchar has 6%,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: and everyone else is at 3% or less. Also quite important,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: more than 60% of respondents in the poll said they'd
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: be open to supporting someone besides their first choice. So, Yes,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: the race is still quite fluid, but man, that is
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: a pretty incredible poll from Mayor Pete. Tommy, you've been
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: on the ground in Iowa. What do you attribute Mayor
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Pete's rise to?
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: So a few things. I mean, I think that he's been,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: he raised a ton of money early and he's been
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: on TV advertising and making a case for himself. I
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: think that has been important. I think he's had a
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: big team there and they've been organizing. I thought he
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: had a good JJ speech and that helped set a narrative.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: And I also think that you know, his rise seems
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: to coincide with a dip for Elizabeth Warren. And, you know,
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: I do think, look, this is a great poll for
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Mayor Pete. I think it looks particularly great for him
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: because he's way up since the last register poll, which
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: was in September. But I think you've seen some of
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: the strength in other polls. The Monmouth poll recently showed
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: him doing very well. The most important point, though, is
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: the one you stated afterwards, which is only 30% of
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: these people have made up their mind.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: This thing is so fluid.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: And the caucus seems like it will be massive. So
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: figuring out who is actually going to turn out is
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: going to be incredibly difficult.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Lovett, what'd you think?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Obviously it's, you know, it was surprising. I think I
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: was not surprised to see Pete rising. I was surprised
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: to see by how much he's rising. You know, we
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: talked about this when Elizabeth Warren was kind of having
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: a trajectory that looked like this. And one of the
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: things we noted is that, you know, she'd actually had
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: a pretty smooth few months with very few, if anyone,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: taking any shots at her. I think Pete's been in
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: a similar place actually recently. as Elizabeth Warren has drawn
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: some fire and as Biden has drawn some fire and
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Kamala and a few others have actually drawn some heat
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: as well. You know, now I think what's been happening
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: is when candidates suddenly pop up to the front of
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: the pack in Iowa in polling, they go from being
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: covered in standard definition to being covered in ultra HD
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: with HDR. And I think that will present some challenges
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: for Pete. I think we'll see at the becoming an
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Iowa frontrunner will have some costs because I would expect
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: debaters to take some shots. He's actually, I think, Julian
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Castro not being in this debate, I think actually that
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: is a very fortunate thing for Pete because I could
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: have seen Julian Castro taking a pretty good swing at
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Mayor Pete. I also do think now the question will, look,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Tommy makes this point all the time, people want to win.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: They want to win, they want to win, they want
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: to win. And now that Pete has this real chance
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: of winning Iowa and it looks like it's a real possibility,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: the question about his support from a huge portion of
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the Democratic coalition, people of color will start to become
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: not just a moral question, but a political one.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: I will say to start that, you know, evidence is
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: mixed on whether voters make up their minds based on
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: ideology or how much voters think about ideology. We know
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that for sure. And the conversation about lanes in the
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: primary can sometimes be like a little oversimplified. But with
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: all that said, they did ask in this poll, is
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: the candidate, do you think this candidate's views are too liberal,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: just about right, or too conservative? Buttigieg fares the best
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: of the four candidates in the lead, with 63% saying
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: he's about right, and only 13% calling him too conservative,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: and 7% saying he's too liberal. And so he's much
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: better than all the other candidates on that. He clearly,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you know, we talked about this after the last debate,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: he's made this move to sort of capture some of
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: that moderate vote, And, you know, I have to say, like,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't, I was skeptical whether it would work, not
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: because I didn't think there were a ton of moderate voters,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: but because I thought it would look too transparent. At
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: least it seemed like that in the debate. I thought
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: his LJ speech was like, I was much happier to
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: see that than him at the debate. So I think
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: he was better there. But clearly it's working because he
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: leads now because he's at 30% among moderates and conservatives.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: That's now his best ideological group. And it was his
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: worst in June. So clearly that's actually that's worked for him. Right.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: It's interesting.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Like Duvall has said now that he's getting in this
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: race in part because he sees an opening between the
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: the moderates and the left of the party, which is
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I think which just means he thinks Biden isn't up
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: to this. And he thinks Warren and Sanders are too
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: far to the left.
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: Fine.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: But it looks like several others have had this idea.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: And Pete being the leading one of them.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that almost every issue debate we've
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: had should be viewed as a proxy for electability, right?
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Because no one knows what that means, but everyone just,
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: you know, 63% of the people in the register poll
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: said they're more focused on electability than issues. That said,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: at the same time, And I believe the CBS News
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: had a tracking poll of early states that came out
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: over this weekend too. And in that poll, you saw
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: the support among early state Democrats for Medicare for all
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: down seven percentage points. And I suspect that a big
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: piece of that is the discussion about whether it's realistic
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: or whether you could get elected supporting that position.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's talk more about Elizabeth Warren, who was
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: the front runner in the last poll. In this poll,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: you know, we were just talking about the statistic for Pete.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: The share of Democrats who describe her as too liberal
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: has risen from 23 percent in March to 38 percent today.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: One possible reason for that, as you mentioned, Tommy, has
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: been her support for Bernie Sanders, Medicare for all legislation,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: which has been under attack from almost all of the
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: other candidates aside from Bernie. But now Warren has released
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: her own plan. In her first 100 days, she said
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: she would pass a bill through the budget reconciliation process,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: which is key because that only requires 51 votes in
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: the Senate and not getting rid of the filibuster. She
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: would pass a bill through that process to create a
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: very generous Medicare public option that would be open to
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: everyone and free for children and people with lower incomes.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: And then later, during her third year in office, she
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: would try to pass Bernie's full Medicare for all bill
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: that would fully transition away from private insurance. Love it.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: What do you think about this plan?
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: It's interesting. It's interesting watching her try to thread this
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: needle between not wanting to abandon her support for Medicare
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: for All, but similar to Kamala Harris and others, reflecting
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: on the fact that there are real political challenges in
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: terms of actually passing Medicare for All. And clearly, they
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: are worried about the attacks on Medicare for All as
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: being too radical or hurting them in some of the
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: battleground states. It's just so clearly a effort to kind
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: of bridge the gap between what Pete has been saying
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: about Medicare for All, who want it, and the fact
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: that the polling bears out the fact that a Medicare
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: public option polls far better than Medicare for All, and
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: the fact that from a moral point of view and
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: from a political point of view, she does not want
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: to lose the bona fides that come with being a
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: champion of single-payer.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: What did you think, Tommy? I mean, it seemed like.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: I think she wants to be talking about other things.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, like we've been stuck in this cul-de-sac for
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: a long time and look, it's a very important cul-de-sac.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I don't mean to diminish it in any way, but.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, her, her message is less distinct
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: from Bernie on this issue than in a lot of
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: other places.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: And I think she just wanted to get through it
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: and get to there. Yeah. I mean, I think it's great.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I was so excited by the plan. Um, and my
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: only complaint was I wish she had done it earlier
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: because And, you know, the New York Times has a
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: great TikTok of this, and she had been working on
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: this for a long time. So even before a lot
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: of the Medicare for All attacks really picked up, she
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: had been working on this for a while. And I
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: think it's, I mean, it reminded me of, we always
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: talk about this, you know, the interview she did with you, Tommy,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: here on Pod Save America way back when, when she said, yeah,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: I'm for Medicare for All, but there's a lot of
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: different pathways to get there. And I think she, I mean,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: she is way more pragmatic when it comes to legislating
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: and governing than I think her critics or even most
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: people would imagine. And that's her record in the Senate
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: bears that out. And I think she has known for
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: a long time. She gets how hard it's going to
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: be to pass Bernie's Medicare for all bill. Like you've
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: got all these Democratic senators saying we're not going to
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: get rid of the filibuster. And even if you do,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: there's a bunch of them who said, no way will
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I pass that. You know, one of the problems for
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Medicare for all supporters, the people who like Bernie's bill
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: is They started this whole effort by talking about the
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: polling and how popular Medicare for all was in the polls.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: But then when the polls started asking about private insurance
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: and do you like a public option better? And everyone said, yeah,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: we'd much rather have a public option, not just the
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: general electorate, but it's like a split among Democrats and
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: now probably slightly more want a public option than Medicare
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: for all. If you live by the polls, die by
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: the polls. And so the problem for the Bernie Sanders
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: legislation supporters is you have this other piece of legislation
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: that is more popular and more easily passed, and most importantly,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: in the short term, would cover every single American, right?
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: And yes, you'd, now, what it wouldn't do is you'd
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: still have some waste and inefficiency from having private insurance,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: you know, they would still be able to pull some
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: of their bullshit, but every single person in the country
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: would have guaranteed care if they wanted it.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, um, it's just interesting, like, it was no,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: it wasn't necessary that Every single Democratic debate would end
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: up in a debate about public option versus Medicare for all.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: But that would become such a central focus of the debate. And,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it's just a it was a
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: reality of just how these debates unfolded, how some of
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: these questions unfolded, that the order of operations was she
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: was for the Bernie plan. Then she faced a lot
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: of really hard questions that she seemed to not want
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: to answer about paying for it. Then she provided an
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: answer on paying for it. And then she provided this
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: final piece of the plan. That sequencing, and I don't
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: claim to, I'm not suggesting there's some better way it
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: could have unfolded, but I do think that that sequencing
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: got her kind of stuck in a conversation that I
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: think hopefully now, even more importantly than just having, than
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: the plan itself politically, is that now she can, to
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Tommy's point, make that part of her speech, but not
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: the focus of every event, the focus of the question,
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: the focus of the debate.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, the, the, the lazy way of talking
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Warren as too liberal is to say that
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: all the stuff she's proposing and, you know, her economic
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: populism is too far to the left for most people.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: And that's just not true. The only policy that she's
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: proposing that's unpopular in some degree is Bernie's Medicare for
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: all piece of legislation. The wealth tax again is incredibly
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: popular according to almost every poll and among not just
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Democrats and independents, but Republicans too.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: It's also, I find some of the, you know, sort
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: of the donor revolt and some of the wealthier public
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: speaking against Elizabeth Warren to be so frustrating because there's
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: this idea that, oh, she's too radical. And it reminds
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: me actually a lot of what was said about Obama,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: who was mildly critical Of Wall Street, mildly critical of
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: the wealthy.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he said the word fat cats once and
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: it was the end of the fucking world.
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: And so there was but there's this narrative took hold
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: that somehow he was sort of so vicious toward them.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: And then you would try to find any evidence of
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: it in the record and you couldn't. I think it's
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: actually true for Warrant as well. It is true that
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: her policies. are much more antagonistic.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: She does have that billionaire tears mug, but.
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: She is running ads only on CNBC and Iowa.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: I would say, I would.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: Say this one. Yeah, she's embraced the fight, but the
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: fight came long before she started selling billionaire mugs. The
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: point I'm making is only don't you, if you want,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: we expect presidents to lead. And one of the ways
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: you lead is by staking out a position that maybe
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: goes beyond what's possible in Congress. And then the negotiation
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: ends up at a good place because you had a
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: president who was willing to push harder and go further.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: All of these, you know, nervous Democrats about like actually
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: seem to be done, have this idea in their head
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: that she'll be a radical president. Don't you trust the
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: limits of this system? Like, this is how it works.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: You want a president who's going to be bold. That's
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: the idea.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: But it's more about, you know, this question of electability.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: And I know it drives everyone fucking crazy and it
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: should and we shouldn't be thinking about it. And it
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: is completely hard to judge. We don't know what the
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: fuck we're talking about. But when you talk to voters,
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: especially voters in Iowa, right, they are terrified of losing
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: to Donald Trump, as we all should be. And so
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: what Elizabeth Warren is going to have to do now,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: and her campaign has known this for a while, this
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: is that the electability thing is a challenge, is make
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: some argument as Pete's out there on the rise and
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Biden's sort of hanging tough in a lot of these
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: other states, why Elizabeth Warren is the best person to
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: go against Donald Trump and win. And there's an argument
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: to make there, but she's going to have to make it,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: One thing that I also take away from Pete leading
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: in this poll is less about Warren and more about
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: what it says about Biden in that Biden is the
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: avatar for those arguments against Elizabeth Warren. But people in
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Iowa who are paying attention, who are seeing these campaigns,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: who are experiencing this race firsthand, are looking at Joe
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Biden versus Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Indiana and
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: saying he's the electable one. And there's The electability conversation
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: is so scrambled by the fact that the national poll leader,
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden, has lost so much ground on one of
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: the key questions in the race.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. though, I would say if I was Joe Biden
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: looking at that Iowa poll, the measure of comfort I
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: would take, and especially looking at that CBS Battleground set
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: of poll trackers, is if Pete Buttigieg wins Iowa, but
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: is still sitting there with, you know, little to no
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: support among black voters. And now Elizabeth Warren hasn't won Iowa.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: And Joe Biden is still leading with black voters by
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: huge margins in places like South Carolina and North Carolina,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: which he is because we just saw polls there over
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks. And we go into Super
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Tuesday and now he doesn't have Elizabeth Warren as a threat.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: And now Pete Buttigieg isn't doing well with voters of
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: color either. Joe Biden could run the tables. Yeah.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, the CBS poll, the way they framed it
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: is a distinction of safe versus risky. And even the
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: people who don't support Biden think he's the safer choice.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: So it does make you wonder if there's some room
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: for people to come home to Biden. And that would
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: make me nervous if I were all the other campaigns
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: knowing that this electability discussion and like, yes, it's fraught,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: it's confused. But like, I also don't blame people for
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: only caring about finding someone who can win because God,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: that's where my brain is too.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Right. And we can all scream about the unfairness of
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: how people judge electability and we should, and we have.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: And we will.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: We live there. But for most people out there who
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: are not paying as close attention as we are to
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: the race and who might not tune in until there's
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: an actual winner in one of these primaries. that's what
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: they're thinking about. And, and you can't blame them for
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: thinking like, God, we got an, I want to, I
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: want someone who can win.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: At some point we can't get mad at voters for
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: thinking the way they think. And the way you prove
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: you're electable is by winning. And there's a lot of
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: embedded racism and sexism and, you know, all kinds of
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: problems within how people make those judgments. But ultimately your
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: job as a candidate is to just get as many
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: votes as humanly possible. And you will prove to the
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: world that you are then electable. and, and, and you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: make an electability case, right?
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, Elizabeth Warren kind of started doing this at
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: the at the LJ dinner when she started talking about
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: She can turn to Pete and say, I have experience
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: that you don't have. You know, Pete can make electability arguments.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: Biden will. I think you'll see a lot of these
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: candidates in this week's debate try to make some kind
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: of electability argument based on their own credentials.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, Pete's Iowa LJ speech was a huge portion
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: of it was an electability speech. It was here's the
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: contrast between me and Donald Trump. Here's how I knock
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: down every kind of criticism that he could level because,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: you know, I served. He didn't.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: And went over some independence.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: I'm from the Midwest. He's from a tower. Whatever, whatever
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: it will be. He sort of is. I think, you know,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: it speaks to his just to compliment Pete, too. Like
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: he's smart. He's really fucking smart. And he has been
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: thinking about this in a really sophisticated way. And it's
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: bearing out.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. OK. When we come back, we'll have my interview
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: with Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown. I am now joined by
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: the senior senator from Ohio and author of the new book,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Desk 88, Eight Progressive Senators Who Changed America, Sherrod Brown.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: And senator from your wife's home state.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: That's right. That is right. As we always say when
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: you're here, the reason that we're married, that we met,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: is because of you.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: My office, Emily.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: That's right. Emily worked a long time ago in Washington.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: So I want to get to your fantastic book in
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: a minute, but first I want to talk about some
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: of the news over the last few days. Sure, of course.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: We're recording this on Friday. This morning, Donald Trump attacked
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: former Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch during a hearing where she testified
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: about being threatened by Donald Trump. What was your reaction
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: to that and, in general, just some of the Trump
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: officials who have testified over the last week?
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, it's clear that this president committed a crime,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: and it's something Richard Nixon never did, bribing a foreign
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: official to ask for help for his own election. And
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: so I think that he's– Pelosi's comments were just excellent,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: that he thinks he's in above his head and he
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: just lashes out at everybody. I don't think I've ever
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: met a human being that consistently criticizes publicly the people
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: who work in his operation, the people that he hired.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: And it's– and this attack that– from two days earlier
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: when he didn't– he said he didn't even listen or
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: watch to– tweeting and criticizing her and bullying her. And
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: in the end, he's a bully and all bullies are cowards.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: And that shows every day with this president.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: Do you think that if this does get to the Senate,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: if the House votes to impeach, could you see any
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: of your more moderate or independent-minded Republican colleagues actually voting
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: to convince him?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: I couldn't today, with the possible exception of Romney. Nobody
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: is there. But I know what I hear, and I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 5: hear senators privately, some Republican senators say things like they
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: know he lies, they know he's in over his head.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: Some are willing to say privately he's a racist, but
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: they love their tax cuts and they love their attacks
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: on environmental issues and workers that Trump does, and they
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 5: love his young judges on the Supreme Court and for
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 5: the whole court system. He also... And I think they're
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 5: scared of his base. But they helped to make that
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: base so solid because if you're a Trump voter in
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 5: Ohio or Michigan or Florida and anywhere else, you may
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: watch Fox, you may listen to Rush Limbaugh, and then
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 5: all the Republicans whom you vote for, none of them
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 5: ever criticize him. You're going to think he does no wrong.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: And so that's why they're so scared of the base
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: because they helped to create that base.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: What about some of the senators who are up in
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: the more moderates, like a Maine or a Colorado?
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: Oh, I think they're sweating more. I mean, you look
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 5: at Arizona, Colorado, Maine, increasingly Iowa, increasingly North Carolina, maybe Georgia,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 5: maybe Kentucky, but a whole different. You saw in your
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: in-laws' neighborhood just across the river in Kentucky, that may
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: have been the reason that the Democrats won because suburban
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: women in Kentucky suburbs of Cincinnati, but in Kentucky really
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: changed that race. But I think they're scared. I think
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: they're sweating. I think that if more things come out
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: and the public turns even more strongly against Trump, if
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: that number goes well over 50, I mean, there's 35
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: or 40 that are not going to move, but that's
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: still a lot that could. And that happens, they start
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: getting scared and there is a chance of, it's hard
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 5: to think there'd be enough to get over the threshold
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: of removal. And that's assuming every Democrat, and we've not
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: really talked about that.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: And most of us.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: Are both, I think we believe in our country and
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: our constitution enough not to say, and really not even
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: to decide what we're going to do if it gets
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: to that. Because I'm not a lawyer, but I understand
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 5: that impeachment is an indictment in a court of law,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 5: and the Senate, 100 members of the Senate, or the
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: 100 jurors, And we should listen to the evidence and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: make the decision based on the evidence. And I'm certain if,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not certain because I don't know what
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: Trump will say. I don't know what the answer is,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 5: what Trump's lawyers will say and what his answers to
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 5: all this are. But if it really is done the
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: way it should as a jury, we will do the
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: right thing. We'll convict him and remove him if he
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: deserves it. And we will not if he doesn't.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: So Nancy Pelosi announced this week that a deal is
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: imminent on the U.S.-Mexico-Canada deal. trade agreement. You've been long
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: critical of free trade agreements and have spoken specifically about
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: issues with past versions of this agreement. What do you
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: need to see in sort of a final deal for
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: you to.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: Support something like that? Fundamentally, you judge a trade agreement
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 5: by does this lift standards, worker and environmental standards, to
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: the point that we don't see, that the trade agreement
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: doesn't continue to send jobs overseas. And this agreement's not
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: very close yet to that. The language that Speaker Pelosi's
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: trying to get in the agreement, the language that I'm
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: trying to get in the agreement with Rosa DeLauro, the
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 5: sort of the House member that's doing the most here,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: It's called the Brown-Wyden labor enforcement language. And that will
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: answer the issue of stopping the outsourcing of jobs. I mean,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: GM closes down in Youngstown, the Lordstown plant, three shifts, 1,500,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 5: three times in a row. They laid one shift off.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 5: Several months later, a second. The day they laid the
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: second shift off, they announced they were moving jobs to Mexico.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: So they're still doing that. Trump's done nothing to stop that.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 5: And so it's pretty clear that a renegotiated NAFTA has
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 5: to have that in it. or it doesn't go.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Is there any concern among Democrats that, you know, if
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Trump gets a win on a trade deal, that he
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: runs around 2020 talking about how he has got this
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: big win on trade?
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, he's either going to do that or he's
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 5: going to say, I was making NAFTA a lot better
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: and Democrats didn't do anything. So either way, he's going
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: to say that and he's not going to tell the
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: truth because he's not at all fought for the provisions
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 5: for workers. Of course he hasn't. I mean, the White
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: House looks like a retreat for Wall Street executives and
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 5: it's never, he's never looked at me. Fundamentally, the reason
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: we're going to win in 2020 is that Democrats are,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: are the party of workers, the party of dignity of
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: work and Trump's betrayed workers. And you can just go
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 5: down the line, whether it's people with preexisting condition, whether
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: minimum wage, whether it's the overtime rule, whether it's trade.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So you've been a long-term, uh, advocate for Medicare
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: for all, but you've called Bernie Sanders version, uh, a
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: terrible mistake for a democratic nominee to support in the general. Um,
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw Elizabeth Warren today sort
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: of released a plan where she basically splits it up
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: into two different parts and she would pass legislation. that
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: would basically create a sort of robust public option and
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: open up Medicare to more people in the first hundred days.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: And then basically in her third year, she would try
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: to complete the transition away from private insurance. What do
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: you think about her plan? Is that better? Is that
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: more palatable?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 5: I actually traded phone calls with her today about that
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: because I've been talking to her about the whole issue.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 5: I You know, look at it this way. Everybody on
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: that stage, however many there are on the stage in
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: the next debate.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: Changes every day.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 5: Changes every day, yeah. Everybody in that stage is for
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 5: universal coverage. That's what Democrats are for. And whether they, everybody,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: each has a different path, each has a different speed
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: at which to accomplish it. But the important thing is
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 5: everybody's for universal coverage on our side. And Trump's trying
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 5: to take it away. I mean, first he failed in
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: the Senate by one vote to repeal Affordable Care Act, Obamacare.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 5: And now he's in the Northern District of Texas courts
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 5: to try to overturn it. And the fight needs to
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: be that, the fight. I mean, there's going to be
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: differences among Democrats. I understand that. But we need to
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: make this contrast. And again, if you've heard me say,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: and I know you understand, think about this too, that
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: it's who's side are you on? And Trump clearly on
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: health care isn't on the side of most people. So
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: I will talk less about any individual plans or programs.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: And that's what I think our candidates should do and
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: make the contrast that where we are and where Trump is. And,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 5: you know, for instance, in Ohio, 2 million Ohioans don't have,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: 2 million Ohioans out of 12 million population have a
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: preexisting condition. Trump overturns the ACA. This court does that.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 5: all 2 million of them are at some risk of
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: losing their health insurance. And that's a much better way
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: to talk about it than do Medicare volunteer at 55
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: and negotiate drug prices and take away the tax subsidies
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: for companies that advertise drugs on television. All of that
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: is the direction to go. And that's a sharp contrast
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: because Trump's on the wrong side of every one of those.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Do you think that we've spent a little too much
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: time debating the finer points of all these plans on
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: the debate.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: Of course we are. And the public quits listening and,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: and Republicans figure out how to write ads from them.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: And I understand when you're running a primary, you've got
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: to differentiate yourself and you don't stand on the, on
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: the platform and say, Oh, we all agree on this
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: because they don't fund them. They don't agree on a
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: lot of details. And I know they're, they're, they're fairly
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: significant differences, but, but nothing compared to, to, to Trump,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 5: to that, that difference. And I, I think a candidate
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 5: that starts going to that stage and, and, sort of
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: talking in that way will be really appealing to Democrats.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: They attack Trump, but attacking Trump on character doesn't seem
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: to break into his 45% support, but showing workers in
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: Zanesville and Mansfield and Lima and Cincinnati, Ohio, that Trump
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: has abandoned them on jobs, on wages, on healthcare benefits.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: We'll begin to peel off enough of those to win Ohio.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about Desk 88. It is it is
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: not the kind of like, I might run for president.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: So I need to write a book kind of book. Uh,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: it's something that you've been working on for quite a while.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: So what, what made you, uh, want to write the
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: book and tell us a little bit about it and
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: sort of what the process was, right?
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: It's, it's, it's, it's mostly about hope in the sense
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 5: that I took, um, I, I, my first one, I
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: first was when, when senators were looking at the freshmen
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 5: centers were looking where they were going to sit on
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 5: the Senate floor. Uh, they're, they're, they're no bad seats.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 5: You're not sitting behind a post, right? So I, I
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: started pulling out desk drawers because a senior senator told
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: me senators scratch their name in their desk drawers. And
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 5: about the fourth desk I looked at, it had said McGovern,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 5: South Dakota, Gore, Tennessee, Hugo Black, Alabama. And then it
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 5: just said one word, Kennedy. So Ted Kennedy, this was 2007,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: standing nearby. And I said, come here a second. I looked,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 5: I showed it. I said, which brother's desk is this?
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 5: He said, well, it has to be Bobby's because I
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: have Jack's. So I just started thinking about who these
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: senators are and what contribution they made. Fundamentally, it's a
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 5: book about the power of government to make people's lives better. Progressives,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 5: we don't win often, but when we win, we win
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: really big. We win big. Look at history, Medicare, 40-hour workweeks,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: civil rights, voting rights, safe drinking water laws, clean air laws,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 5: protections for the disabled, Pell Grants, Medicaid. We win really big.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: We may lose two or four years later, but public
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: benefits from these kinds of reforms for years. And that's
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: this canary pin I wear. It's all about that. It
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 5: was given me in a Workers Memorial Day rally 20
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 5: years ago. It's a depiction of a canary that the
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: mine workers took down in a cage down in the mines.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: And in those days, they didn't have a union strong
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 5: enough or a government that cared enough to protect them.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 5: And this symbolizes me the power of government to make
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: positive change. And it really is based on government responding
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 5: to social movements in creating progressive eras like we had
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 5: with Roosevelt and we had in the 60s and very
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: possibly we have in 2020 and the years beyond that
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 5: if this election turns out the way that it really could.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: Of all the eight senators and all the stories that
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: you researched, what surprised you the most? Did you learn
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: anything that was particularly interesting?
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I didn't know. I think what maybe surprised me
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 5: the most was the unevenness of all of them. And
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 5: what I maybe liked the most was the three of them,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 5: two of them especially, didn't start their careers all that well.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: Hugo Black was a KKK member and said, I belong
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 5: to any group that got me votes. 30 years later,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: after he was put on the, he was Roosevelt's favorite
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 5: labor senator. He wrote eight-hour work, 40-hour work week. He
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 5: wrote some with Wagner, some of the collective bargaining laws.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 5: 30 years later, when he was on the court, he
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: was burned in effigy in his law school in Tuscaloosa
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 5: because of Brown v. Board of Education.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: Because he helped- And he ruled the right way. Yeah,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: and he ruled the right way.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: Kennedy started off with working for McCarthy, then he tapped
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 5: Martin Luther King's phone in the early 60s when he
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: was Attorney General. But look at the Bobby Kennedy that
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: a whole lot of us love the last three or
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: four years of his life. So that's the most pleasant
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: kind of surprise.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: You write about how history has always been a battle
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: between the innovators and the conservators. the latter being those
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: with wealth and privilege who consolidate power by exploiting people's
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: fear that change is too risky. It seems like today
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: a big part of that strategy is exploiting people's fear
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: of a changing, diversifying America. How do progressives overcome that?
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 5: That's a really good observation.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: I mean, Emerson said history is that fight, conservatives and progressives.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 5: And The conservatives, they have most of the media. They
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 5: have the lobbyists. They have money. And they fundamentally want
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 5: to hold under their power and privilege and wealth and status.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 5: Progressives want to push forward. And it's so difficult because
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 5: of the way. There are always fewer conservators, conservatives, because
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: they're the wealthy interest groups and all. There are fewer
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: of them, but they create fear. And you had it
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 5: exactly right. I mean, it was McCarthy. It was communism
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 5: in the 50s. It was integration and maybe in the
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: 60s and 70s and 80s. And it was terrorism in
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: the last 20 years. And it's always been immigration. There's
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 5: always been that strain of people. And I just think
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 5: you just have to out-organize them. I mean, I think
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 5: that you look at, you say, how do you sort
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: of assuage those fears? Look at your generation versus mine.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 5: Look at people younger than you in their 20s. and
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 5: how so many of them have lived in a much
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 5: more diverse world than people growing up when I did,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: and your parents. And that gives me a lot of
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 5: hope that when you're exposed to people of all races
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 5: and religions, I mean, I don't think I was thinking
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: of Tanya, I was talking about this, I don't think
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 5: I knew a Muslim kid when I went through 12
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: years of public schools. Certainly didn't in grade school, and
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure. And being exposed to people that are
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 5: different from you really gives, just makes you a better
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 5: person and makes you much less fearful of change.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: The book is all about, you know, different progressive eras
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: in American politics. How much do you think the next
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: great progressive era might be held back by the Senate itself?
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: And partly because of geographic polarization and the way the
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: red states are like, you know, I try to count
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: all the time. I I can barely count to getting 51,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: 52 Democratic votes with some of them being moderates, let
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: alone getting a 51-vote progressive majority in the Senate. How
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: much do you worry about the structure of the Senate?
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 5: The Senate has a conservative bias to it, just like
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 5: the Electoral College does, just like the court system does, which, again,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 5: makes it harder in these progressive eras. I think that
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 5: three years ago, I wouldn't have said this, maybe because
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 5: I hadn't finished the book, maybe because I've seen McConnell
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: for three more years.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: That I think we eliminate the filibuster. I think that this, this, we,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 5: we can, the filibuster is such an enemy of, it's,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 5: it's such a, such a conservatizing influence on, on our
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 5: body politic. And it's just too hard. You know, it's
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 5: so hard to do a constitutional amendment because you need
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 5: 37 states. It's so hard. Almost every election, I really
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 5: need to look at these numbers, but consistently, even years
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 5: in our particularly good democratic years, more votes are cast
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: for the Democratic candidates for the Senate and the aggregate
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 5: than Republicans. I mean, look at this state, look at
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 5: New York, look at Texas is now getting closer and closer.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 5: And so we just do better. We get more votes,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 5: but we don't have enough senators. So if we get
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 5: to 51, I think there's going to be a real
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 5: movement to eliminate the filibuster and begin to move on
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: progressive issues on climate, on dignity of work. I was
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 5: in Laconia, New Hampshire, when I was thinking about the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 5: presidential race. And Connie and I met a woman who
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 5: was in child care for working for 40 years. And
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 5: she said child care should be a public good. And
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 5: that term just so much comes with that. If we
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 5: start thinking that way, we start thinking like the rest
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 5: of the developed world, the rich world, that for mothers
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 5: and fathers after babies, for vacation time, for all the
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 5: things that, for sick days, all that.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Smart. The book is Desk 88, Eight Progressive Senators Who
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Changed America. It is fantastic. I've read it. I really
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: love it.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 5: And not only that, but John actually did a blurb
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 5: for me.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I blurbed it. It's pretty cool. Read it and
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: blurbed it. Sherrod, thank you so much for coming on
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America, as always. Appreciate it. Thanks.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 5: Good.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: It was fun.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Adam Schiff and Sherrod Brown for joining us today,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: and we'll see you every minute of every day all
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: week because there's too much news.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: News never stops.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 5: Bye, guys. Bye.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: senior producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Carolyn Reston, Tanya Sominator, and
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Katie Long for production support. And to our digital team,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Narmel Coney, and Yael Freed, and Milo Kim,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: who film and upload these episodes as a video every week.