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Ships Without License Plates: The Dark Fleet Behind Fishmeal · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
You probably don't care about marine protected areas.
0:03
If you're listening to this and you're not in the science world, and you're
0:05
just going about your business like every day and you're just interested in
0:08
the oceans, you probably don't really care about marine protected areas.
0:11
You probably can't even name the marine protected areas in your country.
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And don't worry, I'm not attacking you.
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I can't either, because we haven't really had a lot of communication
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around our marine protected areas, especially knowing what they're about,
0:26
what's unique about them, because people haven't talked about it a lot.
0:29
It's very difficult to have these types of conversations about conservation
0:34
tools and what they're about and how they help when there's an invisible boundary.
0:38
You can't really put a specific animal to it or a specific habitat to it.
0:43
Some you can, but we haven't really done a good job as a marine
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conservation world to get you interested in marine protected areas.
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They take a long time to put together.
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They have a lot of stuff that goes into it to make them effective, and
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it's very difficult to get it protected and to get you interested in wanting
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to get them protected, and knowing about it and getting excited about
1:02
it like you can about an orca or a humpback whale or a great white shark
1:06
or a tuna or anything like that.
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Very difficult to do that.
1:10
But that's what we're gonna be focusing on today's episode of the
1:12
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
1:13
I have on the podcast a very, very special guest, Dr. Judy Mann-Lang.
1:17
She has 40-plus years in the conservation industry from the
1:22
aquarium perspective, but also a PhD in communication and effectiveness of
1:27
communication of ocean conservation.
1:29
We are gonna talk all about what makes a good campaign, what helps people really
1:34
understand the ocean, and how simple or complicated do we get with people at a
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public aquarium or even just in general.
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We talk a lot after I did the interview about podcasting and the effectiveness,
1:47
but it's always something that's interested me, and I think it's something
1:49
that's interested in ocean conservation professionals everywhere to talk about
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how do we communicate more effectively.
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And for those of you that are listening to this and are not ocean conservation
1:59
professionals, not scientists, you just wanna know more about the ocean, this
2:01
is a great conversation on understanding where people are coming from and how
2:04
people digest the knowledge of the ocean when they come into an aquarium,
2:08
and it's probably similar to you.
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And I would love to know more about that.
2:11
Hit me up either on my socials or in the comments if you're
2:13
listening to this on Spotify.
2:15
But until then, why don't you listen to this interview I did
2:18
with Judy Mann-Lang talking about communication in ocean conservation.
2:23
Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after.
2:25
Hey, Judy.
2:26
Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
2:28
Are you ready to talk about why it's so important to communicate
2:31
about marine protected areas?
2:34
Am I ever, Andrew.
2:35
It's so good to be with you.
2:37
I've been listening to your podcast for years, and it's
2:39
really exciting to be here.
2:42
Well, thank you so much.
2:43
I'm so happy about that.
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I love it when people had talk about listening to the podcast for a long time.
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It's really great, and thank you for listening.
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I do appreciate, 'cause I put out a lot of episodes, so I appreciate
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you putting up with the amount of episodes that I put out.
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But I'm, super excited because you come highly recommended by a good, a
2:59
mutual friend of ours, Dr. David Ebert, who is my co-host on Beyond Jaws.
3:03
He was like, "You have to have Judy on. If you want to talk about marine
3:05
protected areas, you want to talk about communication, she's the person to
3:08
have on the podcast, and she's a fan."
3:10
So I was like, "Of course, yeah. this makes complete sense." So looking forward
3:13
to first of many, I assume, that we are going to have, and we'll have great
3:17
conversations around communication around marine protected areas.
3:21
It's something that I always struggle with, is how do you get people
3:24
interested in marine protected areas, or just interested in the ocean?
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As fellow communicators, we can have that discussion today and, and
3:31
talk about some of the work that you've done, especially around MPAs.
3:34
There's an MPA day in South Africa, which is really cool, and,
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we're gonna talk all about that.
3:38
But before we do, Judy, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do?
3:42
Okay.
3:43
So my passion has been the ocean and nature.
3:46
So from the age of about two, I knew that I wanted to work in, marine
3:51
stuff, something to do with the sea.
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And that continued right the way through.
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I did my master's degree on fish, and that was where I met Dave.
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We were both studying in the same place together here in Grahamstown at Rhodes.
4:02
And I did my master's on age and growth in fish.
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So I spent two years staring down a microscope counting daily growth
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rings, and I realized that there must be more to life than this.
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I know it's important work, but it wasn't for me.
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And I really know that my passion is people and nature.
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So I was very lucky that I got a position in education at the aquarium
4:24
in Durban, and I stayed at that aquarium in Durban for 30 years.
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So I moved through various positions from education through to management,
4:32
and then I ended my career there as what was called conservation
4:35
strategist, which was really starting to focus in on how effectively can an
4:40
aquarium contribute to conservation.
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So we had a strong research component, we had a strong education component,
4:47
and then obviously aquarium.
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But I wanted to answer the question, so what?
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People visit us, but what do they really learn?
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And how can we more effectively connect with our visitors for conservation?
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So after 30 amazing years in Durban, I then moved to the Two Oceans
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Aquarium, and I've been there for the last five years, and now I'm working
5:05
more as an independent consultant.
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I live in a beautiful place in the Eastern Cape, so traveling to Durban
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and Cape Town has been good, but I'm ready to spend a bit more time here.
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And that's, yeah, that's where I am.
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and from what I've heard, especially from what Dave said, Durban's just a
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beautiful place to live and just enjoy.
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It's like the countryside and you get the beautiful landscapes and stuff.
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So I don't blame you for wanting to stay there more often, like throughout
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the day and not be in traffic.
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How long of a drive is that if you did go back and forth?
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So I have to fly.
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So I would normally do a one-hour drive and then, yeah, and then a flight.
5:38
So- Okay,
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so it's far.
5:39
Like the- Yeah, both, both places are far, yes.
5:41
Okay.
5:41
So this is my ignorance of how, like where things are placed in South Africa.
5:45
So totally understand that.
5:47
That's more than just traffic.
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You got air traffic control- Mm-hmm
5:49
as well in that situation.
5:51
Exactly.
5:52
it's an interesting thing going from, staring down a microscope, doing work
5:56
there, and then going to an aquarium.
5:59
A lot of times people who do that, like I know you realized that wasn't
6:02
what you wanted to do and like you said, there's more to life.
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Did you have any, I guess, hesitation from moving out of what like people
6:10
call like the natural science and to more of applying that science
6:13
through education and the other things that you were doing, especially
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at the beginning of your career?
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Because I think a lot of people, including myself at times,
6:21
like we go through school.
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we do all the things.
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We learn everything.
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Especially in academia, it's all research, research, research.
6:27
How much research can you do?
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You start doing that research, and then you get out of it, and it's almost like
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there's a little bit of like a piece left.
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And you're like, "Am I really doing the right thing?"
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So did you find any hesitation in moving towards aquarium and, I think it was
6:40
education that you first started in.
6:41
Was that the first role?
6:43
that's an interesting question.
6:44
So the move from science into education was relatively easy for me.
6:50
I know that often scientists have a teeny weeny little bit
6:54
of arrogance about education.
6:57
Right.
6:57
And it's a little sort of, "Oh, okay, well, if you're not gonna make it as
7:00
a scientist, then go into education," which is such a challenge now.
7:04
Mm-hmm.
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But it, was then.
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So I did about six years in education, and then I started thinking, "Oh my goodness,
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I'm working with kids. It's gonna take a long time for these kids to grow up
7:17
and make a difference for conservation."
7:19
Right.
7:19
"I need to work with the fishermen." So I moved back to science.
7:22
Okay.
7:22
And I spent about 18 months working on a big program that worked
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directly with fishermen, collecting data from fishermen, et cetera.
7:30
And after 18 months working directly with fishermen, I said, "Oh my goodness, I'm
7:35
going back to education," because at least I feel I can make a difference there.
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so I really do feel your thing about that- Yeah … science to education move.
7:44
But what's really gratifying now is that I'm seeing more and more
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scientists come to me saying, "We need help with communication." Mm.
7:51
And I'm seeing that the scientists are recognizing the value of education
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and the value of communication.
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So I'm hoping that we're moving in the right direction, and I'm hoping that
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in the future we will start to see more science communicators as being seen as a
8:05
real profession and not as something that scientists do when they don't do science.
8:10
I hear you there.
8:11
As a science communicator myself, I have definitely seen the light in terms of what
8:15
a proper science communication, either campaign or dedication can do to people.
8:22
Sometimes it's harder to measure than others, and we'll talk
8:25
about that in just a moment.
8:26
But it's interesting how you, like, you went to work with fishermen, then
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kinda confirmed, you're like, "No, no, hold on a second. I'm actually
8:32
doing a really good thing here if I go back to education." So that work with
8:36
fishermen wasn't with the aquarium.
8:38
So you left the aquarium for a little bit, for a year and a half,
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went to work with the fishermen, and then back to the aquarium.
8:43
Is that it?
8:44
No, our organization has a very, at that time, the South African Association
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for Marine Biological Research had a strong science group called the
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Oceanographic Research Institute, and they had this longstanding
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project working with, fishermen on data collection with fishermen,
9:00
catch and effort data, et cetera.
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So it was within the same organization, which is how I managed-
9:05
Gotcha … to stay three different jobs, but in one organization.
9:09
That's incredible.
9:10
That's amazing.
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and I'm just looking at a bit of your CV here on LinkedIn, and you pretty
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much did it all at the aquarium.
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Director of education, like scientist, director of education, director of,
9:22
uShaka Sea World, and then, CEO, and then conservation strategist.
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Like, that's pretty incredible to move around there.
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Like, what made you so adaptable to do all those roles effectively, did you find?
9:35
Oof.
9:35
That's an interesting question for
9:37
me.
9:37
Summarize 30 years in one question.
9:39
It's pretty simple.
9:40
Yeah.
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I think it's I'm driven by wanting to try and make a difference for
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people- Mm … and for the ocean.
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And in each of those different roles I could achieve that in a different way.
9:50
I was very lucky after the education time to be offered the
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role of, uShaka SeaWorld director.
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And that was at the time we were just building the new uShaka SeaWorld.
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So it was an incredible time.
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It was building teams.
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It was working with people.
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It was working with animals.
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It was an amazing experience.
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I learned more about construction than I ever hoped I would ever need to know.
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Right.
10:13
But it was an incredible opportunity.
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It was a great challenge.
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I love challenges.
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And then after that it was sort of like a natural progression to CEO.
10:20
Mm-hmm.
10:21
And then after a few years as CEO, I realized that my passion
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was really working with people.
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And it was- Yeah … the communication side, it was the research side.
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And I'd also started doing my PhD part-time, and I realized I'd never
10:34
finish my PhD- … because CEO role would always be more important.
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So I was lucky- I could see that … that I could become conservation strategist,
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which was really combining all of my passions in the organization.
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So I've been incredibly lucky with, in-- I've worked with just such amazing people
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who, have trusted me, and it's- Yeah
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it has been very, very special.
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So I feel incredibly lucky.
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What I, find interesting is a couple things here.
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One, when you went from CEO to conservation strategist and doing your
11:01
PhD, I feel like you did a great job at fusing the PhD and the conservation
11:06
strategist with the aquarium goals to really hone in on how effective.
11:12
And we'll talk about your PhD in just a sec, but I like how you were
11:14
able to combine all that so that you can do it while working, and it's
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part of what you're trying to do.
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And, it's also good for the aquarium too, as you do it.
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It's a measurable way of measuring how effective the communication is.
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But I, what I love too, is you've never lost your science brain in
11:29
terms of Your motivation, your question is how can I impact people?
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Where some people's questions might be how can I determine age and growth in rare
11:39
fish or try to identify as many species as possible, or, how can I look at how
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predator-prey interactions happen amongst different types of predators, whether it's
11:48
elasmobranchs or teleost and so forth.
11:50
I think that science brain has always been there, but it's just applied more in the
11:55
social science aspect in this case, but also using your science background and
12:00
the aquarium to drive home the message of trying to impact people through the ocean.
12:05
I think that's amazing.
12:07
Did you- consciously do that?
12:09
Or was that just something that you kinda realize now as you've been working
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in the field for quite some time?
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I don't think I realized it until you mentioned it., I think I'm just naturally
12:20
a curious person and I- Right … I really know that the environment
12:25
needs us to get what we do right-
12:27
Yeah
12:27
faster.
12:28
Right.
12:28
So we have to question ourselves.
12:30
we can't just accept that, well, we've delivered the message, it
12:34
must have achieved something.
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And I think that I'm, continually driven by that question of
12:38
how can we do it better?
12:39
And that- Mm-hmm … might be when I was working on otoliths, how can we
12:42
do age and growth more effectively?
12:44
Or whether I'm working with marine protected areas, I'm looking at how do we
12:48
more effectively work with communities?
12:50
How can we engage more effectively?
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So whatever it is, I'm driven by that question of, can we, we
12:56
must be able to do it better.
12:57
How can we do it better?
12:59
That's amazing.
12:59
That's
12:59
incredible.
12:59
But I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it like that.
13:02
I think it's great.
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And I've seen this, like I've had conversations with people who have
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gone like from science in their master's or like a graduate studies
13:11
or even undergraduate studies, and they've had certain things happen.
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Whether they've done a project or a study, and then the effectiveness of
13:18
the study wasn't what they thought it would be, or maybe it got buried, or
13:22
maybe something happened, and they turned toward business to have more of an impact.
13:27
Their goal was to have more of an impact on the real world
13:31
and not necessarily on science.
13:33
Not to say that's like a, one's better than the other.
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But I feel like people wanna see more real world impact and change
13:39
in the world, especially from this younger generation that's coming up.
13:43
I respect that because in the way our systems are kind of set up, it's difficult
13:48
to do that within the science world.
13:50
We're in a publish or perish kind of way with a lot of academia, and it's not
13:54
necessarily about effectiveness, it's about how many papers can you publish.
13:57
When you go into the nonprofit world, it's you're always looking for funding.
14:00
People seem to be, capped on how much impact they can have based
14:03
on the funding that's available.
14:05
And then in, the for-profit world is you're trying, to make money, you're
14:08
trying to survive, you're trying to grow.
14:10
And yet we're seeing some great companies have some impact, but a
14:13
lot of times the major companies that are big are those who are exploiting,
14:16
our natural resources than less.
14:18
So hopefully we'll see a change in the future for that.
14:20
But I think it's interesting to look at how people are really focusing in
14:24
on having more of an impact on the world and instead of just science.
14:27
So I, I think that's wonderful.
14:29
Now, going into this conservation strategist role, was this a role that had
14:34
been part of the aquarium, or was this something that you saw as a CEO that was
14:39
needed and doing that PhD was a good way of fusing to measure that effectiveness?
14:44
I think it was the time that the organization was growing and
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we'd- Mm-hmm … done the big expansion into the new aquarium.
14:52
That was settled.
14:53
The research had been working for close on 60 years, so that was settled.
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Education had grown.
14:59
And it was really asking those same questions.
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So how do we do it better?
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And I think that's where my role came in, is to really synergize.
15:07
Because I'd worked in all three divisions, how to synergize those
15:10
three divisions in order to more effectively make conservation an
15:15
outcome, as opposed- Mm-hmm … to just something that is, incidental.
15:19
So focusing all of those around conservation and saying, "Okay, how
15:23
do we do it more effectively and where can we have the greatest impacts?
15:27
And then how do we measure it?" So it was synergizing that together.
15:31
It was a lot of sort of doing what nobody else had, started to try to
15:35
do and put it all into one bucket.
15:38
Yeah.
15:38
And then really motivate the team around conservation, because in that
15:43
particular aquarium, we had everyone from a fitter and turner or an aquarist
15:48
or an educator or a scientist, and all of them We asked the question:
15:53
How do you contribute to conservation?
15:54
How do you help people to care for the ocean?
15:57
And it was really uniting the staff around a common vision.
16:01
So it was putting together a byline, which became helping
16:04
people to care for the ocean.
16:06
So I could ask an aquarist, "How do you help people to care for the ocean?" I
16:10
could ask a scientist the same question.
16:12
I could ask one of our accountants the same question, and trying to get us all
16:17
to articulate around a common vision, which was really my primary role there,
16:21
was to get us all to understand what our common vision was and to work towards it.
16:26
I think that's amazing.
16:27
It's interesting too, because You see zoos and aquariums are set up to show
16:33
the world what, say in an aquarium setting, what the aquatic world is
16:37
like, whether it's freshwater or marine, to visually see and connect with some
16:41
of these animals, which is great.
16:44
And I feel like a lot of people think for aquarium and zoos, the viewing of
16:47
the animals is the education, is that connection, and then it stops there.
16:52
But what I've known in, getting to know people who work at aquariums from
16:55
all levels, CEO down to the zookeepers to aquarists, that's not the case.
17:00
The aquariums and zoos of today are conservation organizations different
17:05
than what we normally think of them.
17:07
and I think people ignore that.
17:09
I had conversations with, the CEO of the Toronto Zoo here in my
17:13
hometown, and when he first came on, one of the biggest things they
17:16
talked about was the hidden zoo.
17:19
and the previous CEO didn't like people talking about the behind the
17:22
scenes, which was research and all the things that they were doing.
17:26
And so for him, he was about communication.
17:28
He came in with being like, "We should talk about this. We should be, putting
17:32
our scientists and our researchers, 'cause it's amazing work, we should be putting
17:35
at the forefront and talking to people."
17:38
Showing our zookeepers and what they do, and that they have science backgrounds,
17:41
and that they actually go to Africa to participate in our partnerships with other
17:46
organizations out there to really hone in and, educate themselves continually.
17:51
Did you find that there were aspects in the research that you did, in the PhD,
17:55
'cause you were looking at how effective are all the things that you do at the
17:59
aquarium, like everybody does, how effective and how can you can increase
18:02
the impact on the ocean for the visitor?
18:05
Did you find that there were things that the aquarium didn't, I guess, communicate
18:10
clearly at all on aspects of what was done behind the scenes in the research?
18:16
And then not on purpose, but just wasn't done?
18:19
Absolutely.
18:20
That's what I often said, is that our research division, which was
18:23
a team of over 30 people, so it was a strong commitment to in situ
18:28
research, scientists working on coral reefs, MPAs, fisheries, management,
18:33
et cetera, et cetera, invertebrates.
18:35
And I just used to say it was our best-kept secret, because
18:38
nobody knew it was happening.
18:39
And it was only probably in the last 20 years that we actually put up a something
18:44
in the aquarium that told visitors that we actually did have a research institute.
18:48
It was crazy, but we weren't the only ones going through that.
18:51
So definitely sharing and the visitors want to know that we're doing good work.
18:57
And I think that that was a critical thing from a social
19:00
capital point of view is important.
19:02
But just to go back earlier when you were talking about
19:05
the world zoos and aquariums.
19:06
I've been on the, World Zoo and Aquarium Association
19:09
Council, WAZA, for a few years.
19:11
I'm not on anymore.
19:12
I've moved off now.
19:13
But we actually have started a conservation goal, which is going
19:17
to be really starting to drive the world's best zoos and aquariums to
19:20
measuring their conservation impact.
19:22
So we've spent the last two years working out how to measure the conservation
19:26
impact of zoos and aquariums, and that's probably going to be launched at the
19:30
conference coming up next month, which is really going to be able to make clear to
19:35
everybody, both inside and outside zoos, just what their conservation impact is.
19:39
So I think that, as you said, you've seen it happening and you've seen the change,
19:43
and that's manifest through the new WAZA goal, which is coming out quite soon.
19:47
That's phenomenal.
19:48
I love to hear that because I think it really will put zoos and
19:51
aquariums at a level where people were just like, I didn't know this."
19:57
I think a lot of people are gonna be saying that.
19:59
When I talk to the people at the zoo, they're always worried about, "Well,
20:03
you know, those animals, they never look happy," or, "They're never this." I'm
20:05
like, "Did you know that they do this?" Or, "Did you know that they do this?
20:08
Do you know they study welfare, like the animal welfare of each animal?"
20:12
Yeah, just to talk about, I know it's off topic a little bit, but
20:14
at the Toronto Zoo, they made a new habitat for the orangutans.
20:19
It's an outdoor habitat.
20:20
And in that habitat, they have set up cameras all over the place, and they are
20:26
recording and using machine learning and AI to study the interactions of each part
20:33
of that habitat so that there's research, like post-docs that they're partnering
20:37
with to say, how are they enjoying it?
20:40
Do they like certain aspects?
20:41
Do they not like certain aspects?
20:43
Are they using one more than others?
20:45
Should we put something else in?
20:46
all these different changes and looking at how, quote-unquote, happy these
20:51
animals are within this new enclosure.
20:54
and when I tell people that, they're like, "Oh, I didn't even think they cared."
20:56
The answer is like, "Of course they care." But I think zoos and aquariums
21:00
have taken a big hit over the last couple of decades, especially those
21:04
with marine mammal captivity, which probably for a separate episode.
21:07
When you started the research, I assume, you were probably talking
21:10
to the visitors of the aquarium.
21:13
Did you find that there were some misconceptions that people had about
21:16
aquariums that would- surprised you or some of the staff that you had?
21:20
Not so much from the work that I did for the PhD, but when I was doing the
21:24
research on, our visitors' understanding of marine protected areas, that was
21:30
very interesting because we were asking them what they thought about marine
21:34
protected areas, how much they supported marine protected areas, et cetera.
21:39
And when we asked them to name a marine protected area, they
21:43
named one of the aquariums.
21:45
And that helped me to realize just how different people perceive what we do.
21:51
And I think my biggest learning from my PhD is that we all see the world through
21:57
our own lenses, and that our visitors are coming with such different perceptions.
22:02
Many of our visitors… There's not even a word for an aquarium
22:07
in many of our local languages.
22:09
So now we're taking people into an aquarium, which is a concept that
22:13
they have no idea of in some cases.
22:16
When we had our first aquarium, people would walk into the aquarium
22:20
and the kids would ask us, " where's the switch to change the channel?"
22:25
So it was- They thought it was like a TV … that sort of thinking like a TV.
22:28
Yeah.
22:29
Or they'd ask us, how did we stop the waves?
22:32
Mm. Because now we're moving under the water.
22:35
Mm-hmm.
22:35
So a whole range of different views as to what an aquarium is.
22:39
and it's really for me to take off my lenses and to look at the aquarium through
22:44
the lens of our visitors, and often start with very simple explanations as
22:49
to what an aquarium is and how it works.
22:51
And I think that those were just some of the many, many lessons that we've learnt.
22:55
I think that really brings it home.
22:58
We have a lot of people in our audience who are scientists.
23:00
First starting out sometimes, I remember, like, coming out of my undergrad.
23:04
I have knowledge, beyond knowledge, probably, like, pouring out of my
23:07
ears 'cause I've been bombarded with all this new information and
23:11
statistics and everything like that.
23:13
And I remember talking to family and friends, and the questions they had
23:16
asked, they were simple questions, which was fine, but at the time I was like,
23:19
"How do you not know this?" One of the reasons why I started communication,
23:22
is somebody asked me, like a family member was like, Should I be worried
23:25
about this climate change thing?
23:26
Like, what's going on here?" and look, that person is a paramedic,
23:30
a very intelligent person in New York City, like, busy as, can be.
23:33
And I realize that people have other priorities in their life, and they
23:36
can't learn everything about the ocean.
23:39
They have their own things going on.
23:41
I think we've learned that especially as I grow up and through the pandemic,
23:44
everybody has something going on in their lives, and in the environment
23:48
or the ocean or the planet may not be top of mind because they
23:51
all go through different things.
23:53
I could just imagine South Africa with the amount of different dialects that I've
23:57
learned that they have there, the amount of different communities, the history of
24:00
South Africa and what people go through.
24:03
And stepping into an aquarium is a completely new experience for them.
24:08
Just walking in the doors and they see all this stuff.
24:11
So there's probably levels of I guess, of the concepts, like understanding
24:15
the concepts of just even what an aquarium is, to what's done
24:19
behind the scenes to make the ocean better, to make the planet better.
24:23
So how as an aquarium do you hit every one of those levels?
24:28
that's the question at hand here It's the
24:30
million dollar question.
24:31
So we use a lot of layering.
24:34
So making sure that our interpretation, we redid all of the interpretation,
24:38
and making sure that the interpretation has got the, the basics first.
24:43
So very simple basics.
24:45
What are we looking at?
24:46
Why are we looking at it?
24:48
The really simple stuff right at the very, very beginning.
24:50
Yeah.
24:51
But then there are visitors who want to know more, so making sure that we've
24:54
got layers in any of our interpretation.
24:57
And then the same is, is having a whole range of staff on the floor who can
25:02
communicate with the different visitors.
25:04
Mm. So they've got good in-depth knowledge, but they also understand the
25:07
people they're talking to really well.
25:09
And it just comes back to that whole thing with communication of knowing
25:12
your audience and making sure that your staff are skilled enough to be able
25:15
to understand, okay, this is somebody where I can go into the lateral line.
25:20
This is somebody where I could talk about the water that's in that fish exhibit.
25:24
So I think that it's having staff that are able to really understand their
25:27
audiences and know what level to, to pitch it at, because we're trying to
25:32
reach a very, very diverse audience, but understanding that audience.
25:36
And that's why I always say, "Take off your glasses and look at the
25:38
aquarium." When I first looked at the interpretation through my new eyes, I
25:43
just realized that we had designed all the interpretation for people like me.
25:47
Mm-hmm.
25:48
So for people who are interested in the ocean, who know- Yeah … a little
25:51
bit, and who care passionately, and that's not necessarily our audience.
25:55
so how do we design the interpretation for visitors?
25:58
How do we make our presentations for what the visitor wants, not for what we want?
26:04
Yeah.
26:04
It's almost like you're flipping the narrative so that people who are coming
26:08
in, you're like, "How do I make this particular person from this background,
26:13
from this area, and where they're coming from, knowing more about them, and how
26:17
are they coming into the aquarium, and how they can experience this aquarium,"
26:20
and what you want them to leave with, a sense of just new knowledge or wonder
26:25
and awe, but at different levels because you're hitting it at different levels.
26:30
I think that's incredible to just almost go back down and, like,
26:33
strip it all down from the bottom to the top and start to look at the
26:36
different ways to engage with people.
26:40
How do you measure, like how do you evaluate whether that is
26:44
successful after that's in place?
26:47
So that's really what we're all grappling with now is the effectiveness,
26:51
and it's across the board.
26:53
So measuring things like knowledge gain is relatively simple.
26:57
So doing a pre and post-survey in the aquarium in terms of
27:02
knowledge is relatively simple.
27:04
But I think that we're much more interested in those deeper changes.
27:07
So changes in attitude, changes in behavior.
27:11
Have we inspired a different way of looking at the ocean?
27:14
And there are lots of different ways of doing it, and it's becoming
27:18
now much more common in research.
27:20
So just one project we did was called Penguin Promises, and we asked our
27:24
visitors to make a behavioral change promise to the penguins that would in some
27:30
way support ocean conservation, and they had to write their promise on a postcard.
27:34
So they wrote their promises on the postcard with an email address, and
27:37
then they posted it just on site.
27:40
We then contacted those visitors about between a year and 18 months later, and
27:45
we said, "Have you kept your promise to the penguin? And if so, why or why not?"
27:51
Because we were trying to again assess that longer term impact on behavior.
27:56
And the results of that were fascinating.
27:58
We found that out of the visitors that responded, we had almost 40%
28:02
that said they could remember what their promise was- Hmm … and
28:05
they could articulate it to us.
28:07
And then when we asked them why, it was fascinating to see how many
28:11
of them said, "Well, because of my kids or my grandchildren, and I
28:15
want to leave them a better world."
28:17
Many of them said it's because of an emotional connection to the penguin.
28:21
Mm-hmm.
28:22
So that penguin as the icon was really important.
28:25
And then there were obviously many other reasons that they'd kept their promise.
28:28
But that's just one of the ways that we can start to look at our long-term impact.
28:33
So I think we've starting to move beyond…
28:35
We've done lots of research where we ask visitors questions at the
28:38
beginning, at the end, or we just ask them questions at the end.
28:42
But I think we're starting to really explore from a behavioral
28:45
perspective, are we making a difference?
28:47
And I think that that's now where we're going to put more and more of our
28:50
research efforts in terms of what is the change that we're able to inspire.
28:55
I always say we're trying to connect to people's hearts, to
28:57
their hands, and to their mind.
28:59
And connecting to their mind is the one that often we can measure.
29:02
How we've inspired them is more difficult, and then obviously what they do as
29:06
a result of that visit and why is, I think, becoming more and more important.
29:10
And it's a movement we're seeing throughout conservation because
29:13
conservation has focused a lot on biology, on species, on biodiversity.
29:19
And in actual fact, if we look at most of the drivers of biodiversity
29:23
loss, they're human behaviors.
29:24
Mm-hmm.
29:25
So conservation is really moving more into that behavior field,
29:30
which is tricky in so many ways.
29:33
But unless we're able to influence behavior positively for the environment
29:37
with ethics and all the rest of things that need to be- Mm-hmm … taken
29:40
into account, we're probably not going to achieve our conservation goals.
29:44
Agreed.
29:44
Agreed.
29:45
A friend of mine always said, "Conservation is about managing people.
29:48
The planet's gonna be fine after people leave.
29:51
It's managing the people." I covered a story on my YouTube channel I did it
29:55
yesterday as of recording this, and it was about how looking at a coral reef
30:01
atoll in the middle of the Pacific, having gone through six months of heat
30:05
stress and bleached, but then came back.
30:09
And when the researchers went to visit again, there was just all baby corals.
30:13
All the corals that survived had reproduced, and they wondered like,
30:17
"How do we do this? How does this happen? Why can't other places do this
30:21
after this type of stress?" Like six months is a long time to be bleached.
30:24
And they noticed that the ecosystem itself had top predators, had grazers,
30:31
and it had this coralline algae all together to support the reproduction
30:37
of the coral reefs to allow to come.
30:39
The ones that survived were probably ones that were a little
30:42
more tolerant to heat stress.
30:43
So it's not that we didn't lose corals, but we saw like a rebound that happened
30:48
that was just gone, where no restoration was done, like reef restoration was done.
30:52
And now they're taking that formula and, placing it in different
30:56
places, Maui, Puerto Rico, Florida, Belize, and probably more.
31:01
And this has just happened recently.
31:04
And a lot of that is, when you look at the top predators, the grazers and the
31:07
coralline algae, you look at these are things that get taken out by humans,
31:11
whether on purpose or not on purpose.
31:14
And so when we talk about managing or educating people on the human
31:20
disturbance, now we're going after people's livelihoods.
31:24
and in many places around the world, let's take fishing, fish and seafood
31:29
are their number one protein sources.
31:31
That's where they get the bulk of their protein source.
31:34
So from a communication standpoint, we could come out here and we
31:37
could say, " All fishing is bad.
31:40
It's taking out a lot of the things.
31:41
It's not managed properly, even though there are some that are managed." But
31:44
when we think about if you tell the kids, like, "Fishing is bad, don't
31:47
eat fish," you can't say that 'cause now you're attacking, one of the
31:50
biggest industries around the world.
31:53
And now fishers who are part of the community are, work with science, they
31:58
all take a step back and they don't wanna work with anybody 'cause now
32:00
you're attacking their livelihood.
32:02
And many other things happen around the ocean that are human disturbance, but
32:05
like people depend on that as a living.
32:08
How do we as communicators start to communicate the complexities of managing
32:14
these types of industries and people so that they're not vilified, and we can
32:20
work with them, as the aquarium does, to ensure that they can fish for generations,
32:26
but we can also have those fish to help these corals and these ecosystems and the
32:31
food web and, to stay the way they are?
32:33
Something that I think that all of us in science are really grappling with
32:37
and is that how do we meet human need while ensuring that the environment
32:41
can continue to meet that need?
32:43
And when we look at sustainable seafood, I've spent a few years delving into
32:48
sustainable seafood as part of a project at the V&A Waterfront, and I
32:53
think my headline take home is that sustainable seafood is complicated.
32:57
Yeah.
32:58
So we've just really tried to work out how do we make it as simple as
33:01
possible and I- Mm-hmm … can talk about that project another time.
33:05
But it's really finding that balance and looking especially, often the
33:08
communities that are single families that are relying on the ocean for their
33:12
livelihoods are not the big problems.
33:14
We're looking at the big industrial fisheries, and those big industrial
33:18
fisheries are the ones that we really need to perhaps focus on supporting
33:22
the groups that are doing the good work, and then looking at the ones
33:26
that are not doing such good work.
33:28
And less emphasis on the small scale fishers, 'cause the small scale
33:31
fishers are often the ones that are losing out because of those- Mm-hmm
33:34
big industrial fisheries too in many areas.
33:36
Very true.
33:36
So I think that it's looking at it with an understanding that it's complicated.
33:40
Yeah.
33:40
We can't get away from it, but we've gotta try and simplify it if we're
33:43
going to communicate it, and that's what we've tried to do with the project
33:46
at the V&A Waterfront in Cape Town.
33:48
But then what you were describing in terms of that coral reef is looking very
33:52
much like a marine protected area, which is where you actually have the entire
33:57
ecosystem and the ecosystem is in balance.
34:00
Mm-hmm.
34:00
We're finding some of the work that scientists at Rhodes have been doing in
34:04
the Tsitsikamma Marine Protected Area, which is one of our oldest MPAs in South
34:08
Africa, is that the fish in that MPA are actually more resilient and they're
34:13
better able to cope with climate change.
34:15
because they've been living in this protected area for so long, they're tough.
34:18
, They're resilient fish.
34:20
And I think that those are just some of the knock-on effects of MPAs that we
34:23
haven't even been thinking about yet.
34:25
But it's maintaining intact ecosystems 'cause those ecosystems
34:28
are the ones that are going to be able to withstand the changes that
34:31
are probably coming more and more.
34:33
Absolutely.
34:34
And speaking of which, I'm a big proponent of marine protected areas.
34:38
Judy, I assume you're a very big proponent of marine protected areas.
34:41
We know in a lot of cases, if they're done properly, and there is a certain
34:44
way of doing things, and it's unique in every single part of the world, if
34:49
it's done properly, it can be effective.
34:51
But it's an invisible boundary that talks about protecting fish biodiversity, is
34:57
oftentimes they are out in the middle of nowhere where people don't see them.
35:02
How do we get people to care about marine protected areas?
35:08
that's the question we started.
35:09
We started with about 2018, South Africa had 0.4% of its exclusive
35:16
economic zone in marine protected areas.
35:19
And their scientists are amazing scientists said to have really
35:23
worked hard on mapping where we should put the next 5%, because
35:27
we wanted to move from 0.4% to 5%.
35:31
So they had done well over 10 years of research.
35:33
They knew where they should go.
35:35
They'd done all the public consultation.
35:37
They had talked to people for many, many years, oil and gas companies,
35:41
the big industrial fishing companies, local communities, et cetera.
35:45
And these new protected areas were sitting on the minister's
35:48
desk, and they sat there, and they sat there, and they sat there.
35:52
And we realized that the oil and gas people were talking to the minister
35:55
and things were not looking so good for the future of our new MPAs, which
36:00
hadn't even been proclaimed yet.
36:01
And that was when we started saying we need to build public support for MPAs.
36:06
So one of the things we did is we started with a research project at the aquarium
36:10
to say, "What do our visitors know about MPAs?" And most of our visitors
36:14
couldn't name one of South Africa's MPAs.
36:17
So we realized that we've got this one hand, we're saying we need to
36:20
build support for MPAs, and most of our visitors are going, "MP what?"
36:24
So that was almost where we moved towards MPA Day.
36:29
So what happened in that particular case is in 2019, eventually through lots of
36:35
support from Youth for MPAs, from our scientists actually starting to engage
36:40
directly with the ministers, with people in power, they did a lot of work there.
36:45
We got the new MPA.
36:46
So on the 1st of August 2019, we went from 0.4% to 5% of our EEZ,
36:53
which was an amazing, an achievement.
36:55
But I, realized that that is where we're gonna need to build more public support.
36:59
We can't say love MPAs if people don't know what MPAs are.
37:04
Mm-hmm.
37:05
So that was kind of where the idea of MPA Day came from.
37:08
It was looking at how do we start to generate support for these
37:13
protected areas in the ocean?
37:15
And it was a way of saying we've got a day for everything.
37:19
So there's Ocean Day, there's Rhino Day- there's Zebra Day, there's
37:23
literally a day for everything.
37:23
It's hard to keep track.
37:24
Hard to keep track.
37:25
So I thought, what about MPA Day?
37:28
So-
37:28
Yeah
37:29
… that was where it started, was just like, let's start this day," and that
37:32
was where the whole thing came from.
37:34
When I started to really look at how do we make MPA Day work, there
37:38
were two things that came through.
37:39
Firstly is explaining what a marine protected area is.
37:43
Mm-hmm.
37:43
Because people didn't have an understanding, so there we started to look
37:46
very much at nature reserves in the ocean.
37:49
People in South Africa are used to game reserves in the ocean, so starting
37:53
to use that moving from a familiar concept to an unfamiliar concept.
37:57
And then the second thing that was so important is that we had
38:01
sold MPAs on their value to the environment, so for biodiversity, for
38:07
climate change- Yes … et cetera.
38:09
We had never articulated the role of MPAs in supporting people.
38:14
Mm.
38:14
And that was a really fundamental change.
38:16
In a country where we've got incredible socioeconomic challenges
38:20
that we face, we need to articulate our conservation in this particular
38:25
area in how it can support people.
38:27
So that's where we started to really look at how do we articulate the value
38:31
of MPAs to people, not just to nature.
38:34
So those were some of our, early lessons when we started to work out
38:37
how do we do this MPA Day thing?
38:40
Yeah.
38:40
So how we got MPA Day to grow from just one little thing to where
38:44
it is now is another whole story.
38:46
Mm-hmm.
38:46
But it was a lot in the beginning around how do we really communicate
38:50
the value of marine protected areas to people and to nature?
38:54
Yeah.
38:55
I'm still stuck on the trying to figure out the names of the MPAs here in Canada.
38:59
When you said, like, people don't know the MPAs, it's true.
39:02
We don't market them as what they are.
39:04
They're MPAs, but there's ways to market them of what's in them and what's defined
39:10
them and why we chose this one area.
39:12
We see the big announcements, "Oh, there's a new MPA here in
39:14
Canada or in South Africa or, hopefully soon in the high seas."
39:18
But we have no idea what it's characterized by.
39:21
We don't dive in to say, "Hey, here's an experience here of getting to know
39:25
the Arctic, the sub-Arctic, All these different places that are characterized
39:29
by these unique habitats that we wanna protect. Here's why we wanna
39:32
protect them. Can you name them?"
39:34
It's almost like it should be in geography class, like when you're in
39:36
elementary school, you name the capitals and the cities and all these, but we
39:40
should all know the MPAs in our area.
39:42
To dive a little deeper into those campaigns to say not only about MPA
39:46
Day, but again, like are you showing photographs or videos of the animals and
39:53
the habitats that are within these MPAs?
39:56
It'd be really difficult in an aquarium, I'm trying to picture
39:59
this as someone who walks into the aquarium with no background in science
40:03
to be like, " All the stakeholders were brought together to this MPA.
40:06
This is important for this," and them just being like, "Okay," like, that's great."
40:10
Like how do you get them excited about a marine protected area?
40:13
So one of the first things we did once we'd done our kind of baseline research is
40:18
we put together a display on our new MPAs so that the visitors to the aquarium would
40:23
know where they were, what they meant.
40:25
And one of the most effective things in that exhibit was a map, a map with
40:30
all of our coastal towns and then where the different MPAs were situated.
40:35
And that we found really motivated people because they would say, "Oh, I
40:39
live here-" Mm-hmm … "and this one's close to me," or, "I live here and
40:43
this one's close to me." So that was what we found quite effective there.
40:47
Then just the concept of what is an MPA, we made sure that that was very,
40:50
very clear and people could see that.
40:53
And then some of the unusual animals also featured quite highly because many of our
40:58
new MPAs were offshore protecting weird and wonderful corals and coelacanths-
41:03
Mm-hmm … and things like that.
41:04
So being able to showcase those weird and wonderful things that kind of drew
41:08
people in, they weren't the normal things that they were used to seeing.
41:12
So those are just some of the things that our research on
41:14
that particular exhibit showed.
41:16
But MPA Day is very much beyond the aquarium.
41:20
So it might have started with us and just as an idea, but immediately once
41:25
we'd sort of started like, "Let's do MPA Day," I contacted about six or eight
41:29
friends and I said, "Let's do MPA Day."
41:31
And they all said, "What's MPA Day?" And I said- … "Well, I don't
41:34
really know, but it's, an idea.
41:36
Let's see if we can work with it." So we contacted two digital communication
41:40
companies, a traditional communication company, some conservation organizations,
41:44
Two Oceans Aquarium in Cape Town, and we just sat together and said, "Okay,
41:48
well, how do we make this thing work?"
41:50
Mm-hmm.
41:51
And that was in 2021.
41:52
We had our first MPA Day on the 1st of August 2021, and that was just a
41:56
virtual tour because it was obviously in the middle of lockdown, so there
42:00
wasn't much we could do- Yeah, of course … not a good time, not a
42:03
good time to plan a new campaign.
42:05
No.
42:05
But yeah, this last year, I looked at the report and I think we had,
42:08
celebrations in over 25 countries.
42:11
So- That's amazing … it's amazing to see how the idea has
42:15
taken off and how it's growing.
42:17
And MPA Day doesn't belong to anybody.
42:19
It belongs to- Everybody … to anybody who wants to use it,
42:22
and that's been exciting to see.
42:24
So it had its genesis in an aquarium, but it really wasn't about an aquarium.
42:28
It was about a platform to communicate MPAs to people broadly, and not
42:36
just to communicate, but to build a connection to between people
42:40
and their MPAs is on the one hand.
42:43
And then what we're starting to see is MPA Day is starting to be used
42:46
effectively as a lobbying tool, which is- Yes … is quite exciting.
42:50
So- Yeah … we're starting to see how it's growing.
42:53
And one of the things I'm going to do next year is, is to start
42:56
a retrospective evaluation.
42:58
So what have we achieved over the last few years- Mm … to help
43:02
inform where we go in the future?
43:04
I feel like it's a good day for countries to announce MPAs.
43:08
You know what I mean?
43:08
To say, "Hey, this is the day that, Canada's going to put this," or, "South
43:13
Africa is going to, designate this area as an MPA." These days actually work that
43:18
way as they get more and more popular.
43:20
You're looking at 25 countries, going from one single aquarium to 25 countries.
43:25
Like, that's pretty effective.
43:26
And I think also with that diversity of countries, you start to see the diversity
43:30
of how people are presenting MPA Day.
43:33
And so did this MPA Day show up in other aquariums or in zoos, or is it nonprofit
43:40
organizations that are, starting to push MPA Day within their countries?
43:44
how is this growing, and is it growing through, like, the aquarium
43:47
network and the zoo network?
43:49
It's not growing at all in the zoo and aquarium network.
43:52
Interesting.
43:52
But it's growing amazingly with Mission Blue, so they
43:55
have been incredible partners.
43:57
Of course.
43:58
Of course.
43:58
So Mission Blue Hope Spots.
43:59
Yeah.
43:59
They've been an amazing partner, and they've really helped us to grow.
44:04
So working together with the Mission Blue team has been great.
44:07
We've partnered with the Protect Baltic, which looks at-
44:11
Mm-hmm … MPAs in the Baltic region.
44:13
So working with their team, they have been wonderful supporters, and
44:17
they've really helped it to grow.
44:18
So it's been those two kind of almost anchor partners
44:22
that have helped us to grow.
44:23
Right.
44:23
So I would say if I looked at the range of participants in MPA Day this year,
44:28
it ranged from individuals through to community-based organizations,
44:35
small local NGOs, non-government organizations, all the way through
44:39
to, to the big organizations, the Hope Spots, people who support the Hope Spots.
44:44
Mm-hmm.
44:45
And then governments.
44:46
We've noticed a quite a few governments starting to celebrate MPA Day as well.
44:51
So- Interesting … the people are making decisions.
44:53
And then even a few businesses have come on board.
44:56
That's awesome.
44:56
So the range of people is getting bigger and bigger.
44:59
A lot of the marine protected areas obviously themselves have come on board.
45:03
Mm-hmm.
45:03
So different marine protected areas have said, "We'll host a celebration
45:07
in our own MPA." So the MPA managers have come on board in many areas.
45:12
The MPA education staff, the community staff have come on board.
45:17
The Western Indian Ocean, so some of the groups like the Western Indian
45:20
Ocean Marine Protected Area Network, they came, they hosted a webinar.
45:24
So yeah, and then it's a wide diversity, but it hasn't grown
45:28
at all in zoos and aquariums.
45:30
That's interesting.
45:31
Have you tried?
45:32
Like have people been contacted through your network or other networks, and
45:36
they just, "This is not something that we're interested in yet"?
45:39
Yet.
45:39
I say yet because it's gonna happen soon.
45:41
I don't think…
45:42
It's gonna happen.
45:42
It is going to happen.
45:43
So- … WAZA has been supportive.
45:45
They've shared our MPA Day information quite extensively,
45:48
so WAZA's been very supportive.
45:50
I think it's just an idea that hasn't quite gelled yet with-
45:53
Gotcha … with an aquarium.
45:54
Right.
45:54
But I, I think that, yeah, the aquariums will come on board.
45:57
I've got no doubt about that.
45:59
I think it's interesting too.
46:00
it is a difficult thing to communicate to people as we've talked about.
46:04
and there are different ways of doing it, and I think sharing those
46:06
ways might help with, getting it to start to go into different aquariums.
46:11
It'll probably start with one, and then you never know how others…
46:13
And I do think it's interesting.
46:15
The research you are doing with the aquariums and measuring
46:19
effectiveness of different conservation messages Is it being shared or is
46:23
it just more for the aquariums?
46:25
Is it being shared through either published papers or other means like
46:28
technical papers that go out to the World Aquarium and Zoos Association?
46:32
How is it being communicated, I guess is the question?
46:34
A lot of it is communicated through scientific papers,
46:37
so through publications.
46:39
So we've got quite a nice list of publications, both from our
46:42
lab right through to working with Queensland and with other researchers.
46:45
So there's a nice body of information that's coming out in the literature.
46:49
And then a lot of technical reports.
46:51
We've got something called the International Zoo Educators Association.
46:55
They share more practitioner-focused reports and articles on effectiveness of
47:00
communication, so that's another tool.
47:02
So there are different ways that we're sharing that information.
47:04
Unfortunately, very often organizations do really good evaluation, but it's a
47:10
report that is only used internally.
47:12
So I think that that is a challenge that we have is how to share
47:16
those reports more widely in a way that- Mm-hmm … more people can
47:18
use them and help their own work.
47:20
'Cause I find every time I read somebody else's report, I
47:23
go, "What a good idea." Yeah.
47:25
"I hadn't thought of that." Yeah.
47:26
Right.
47:26
And we need to be able to share those.
47:28
People don't have access to scientific papers.
47:31
Often- Of course … they're behind a paywall, et cetera.
47:33
Yeah.
47:33
So it's difficult to get access.
47:35
So sharing infographics is another, I think, an important way to
47:39
share- Yeah … information and, we should all do much more of it.
47:42
I agree with that.
47:43
Do you find that the challenges in that is it's just geographically siloed in terms
47:48
of people aren't connecting, 'cause I feel like some aquariums are very well and
47:52
zoos are very well connected with others because of networking and, like business
47:56
relationships and things like that.
47:57
But do you find there's like a siloed problem, like in a lot of academics or
48:01
even government, even within governments, like departments and things like that?
48:05
Do you find that that's happening in that, area?
48:07
I think the zoo and aquarium world is pretty well connected
48:10
through conferences, through their internal journals.
48:14
All the different associations have got journals.
48:16
So I think that from a zoo and aquarium perspective, it's pretty well connected.
48:19
I'm looking more broadly at the marine communication side.
48:22
And I think- Ah, okay … that from a marine communication side is
48:25
where we haven't really communicated what we're learning and- Yeah
48:30
how it can help.
48:32
Mm-hmm.
48:32
So looking more broadly at marine communication, there are obviously the
48:36
marine co-educator networks, et cetera.
48:40
So they are there, but most people are not part of those networks.
48:42
So I think that- Right … that's where we trying to help marine educators around
48:47
the world be more effective, I think is something that we can all contribute to.
48:50
Ocean literacy is amazing and how ocean literacy is now being conceptualized.
48:55
Mm-hmm.
48:56
I've got incredible respect for how Canada has approached ocean literacy and how
49:01
they really are using good research- Right to communicate ocean more effectively.
49:06
And I think that I often look at the Canadian example as an example
49:09
to use and see how we can apply that from an African perspective.
49:13
So I think that we're still learning, but there are some good examples.
49:17
I think that's interesting.
49:18
Something that I am interested in learning more about, to find out how
49:23
other countries… 'Cause you're not the first person to say that, how Canada has
49:26
done such a, they seem to be a leader in ocean literacy and communication.
49:30
I do agree, I think marine communication needs to kinda
49:33
come together a little bit more.
49:34
I think we're starting to see more communicators come out of scientists
49:37
and more communicators just come out in general in the marine world.
49:40
To be honest, I think a lot of it is just, it's new.
49:42
Even when I went to school Communication in marine science wasn't a thing.
49:46
I remember my supervisor was like, "Be careful in terms of how you
49:49
communicate, because people can manipulate what you say," because
49:53
they've had bad experiences with it.
49:54
I think now with digital media the way it is, this was back in 2003, so there was no
49:59
Facebook, there was no podcasting, there was no YouTube or anything like that.
50:03
Now there's so many ways of communicating.
50:04
We're starting to see that emerge, and we're starting to see a lot more
50:08
science communicators come out, and we're seeing positions like well-paid
50:12
positions for science communicators.
50:14
Mmm.
50:14
So I think that we're starting to grow, but I do think there definitely needs to
50:17
be a little bit more of a crossover, a mixing and a networking to come together,
50:23
'cause everybody's doing their own thing.
50:25
How do we come together, and make sure that we're following
50:29
a number of different models?
50:31
We're measuring effectiveness, all that kind of stuff.
50:33
So I think this is like the beginning of a conversation of how like I
50:37
can do better, how aquariums can do better, how zoos can do better, how
50:41
nonprofits can do better in the marine world to say, how do we push this
50:45
envelope to get more people interested?
50:47
And just knowledge base.
50:48
Sometimes whether it's basic or advanced knowledge and everything in between, to
50:52
really care about the ocean so that we have more eyes on the ocean to say, "Hey,
50:56
we're in trouble here." And it's not just negative, there's some positive things,
50:59
but we need to work together to be able to do this 'cause Like sometimes people are
51:01
just like, "Yeah, I just, I can't care.
51:03
So many other things that I need to do." But I'm like, " you're gonna have to care
51:06
soon because it's gonna start to literally come at your feet. It's gonna be right
51:10
at your toes and you're inland, so you don't want that to happen." So Judy, this
51:13
has been such an amazing conversation.
51:16
I'd like to leave with, like a final question.
51:18
Obviously, I'd love to have you back on, invite you back on to talk more about
51:21
marine conservation and communication.
51:24
for people who are listening to this podcast who are not scientists, you've
51:29
worked with a lot of people from very different spectrums in terms
51:32
of where they are in their lives, where they live, and everything like
51:34
that, and their knowledge of oceans.
51:37
How does someone deal with everything that is going on, all the negative attention
51:42
that the ocean's getting, climate change.
51:44
How do they help get over that anxiousness of, the world is on fire
51:49
or flooding and things like that?
51:51
It's something that I've grappled with, and I think all of us go through
51:55
our kind of eco-depression phases and our eco-anxiety phases, and
52:00
I've been through that phase myself where I felt almost like an inertia.
52:04
It's like, "Oh my goodness, it's just so big.
52:06
There's stuff happening around the world." And when I have those moments, I tend to
52:11
say, "What can I do in my own community?
52:15
So where can I make a difference at home?
52:18
I might not be able to stop coral bleaching.
52:21
I might not be able to stop runaway fires, but I can make a
52:25
difference in my own community, and it might start with my family.
52:28
It might start with the people that I meet up at the school.
52:31
It might start with where I work." So my message is, what can you
52:36
do in your own community, and how can you make a little difference?
52:40
Mm-hmm.
52:40
Because if each of us does that little difference, talking to people, making
52:45
those changes in our own behavior, ultimately we can have that bigger effect.
52:49
So I often focus on what are the small wins that we can have just here locally.
52:54
And that's where I put my emphasis because sometimes those big
52:57
problems do become overwhelming.
53:00
And then what I also often say is just get out into nature and have fun.
53:04
If that's what inspires you.
53:05
If talking to a group of kids inspires you, get out and do that because we've
53:10
gotta keep our souls alive because this- Yeah … can be an incredibly
53:13
depressing world when we see stuff we've worked towards our whole life and we
53:18
go, "Oh my goodness. What's happening?"
53:20
Yeah.
53:20
But it's, just getting out there and enjoying what it is that we
53:24
care so deeply about so that we keep our souls alive because that's what
53:28
will keep ourselves inspired and keep the people around us inspired.
53:32
I completely agree.
53:33
those are great words.
53:34
To leave off on for this episode, I'm gonna call this a part one 'cause I'd love
53:38
to have you back on, Judy, because this has been such an eye-opening experience
53:42
for me as well, I'm sure as the audience members, and this is the wonderful part
53:46
about hosting a podcast is I get to be a little selfish and talk about some of
53:49
the stuff that I'm interested as well as what I think the audience is interested.
53:52
But this is great.
53:53
I think this is stuff that we need to learn more about and, for all of us,
53:56
not only just science communicators but for everybody to really understand
54:00
at the heart of it what we love about the ocean and what makes us
54:03
more passionate about the ocean.
54:04
So thank you so much, Judy, for coming on the show, sharing your career
54:08
and everything that you've learned.
54:09
and again, I can't wait to have you back on to be able to, discuss more.
54:13
Thank you so much, Andrew.
54:14
It's been such fun.
54:15
I look forward to joining you again.
54:16
You bet.
54:17
Wonderful.
54:18
Thank you, Judy, for joining us on today's episode of the How
54:20
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
54:21
It was great to have you on.
54:23
Very excited to have you back on to talk more about how we
54:27
communicate ocean conservation.
54:29
I think this is great for professionals, scientists, ocean conservationists,
54:33
practitioners, but I also think it's great for people who are trying to
54:37
understand how to understand the ocean and how to approach the ocean with all
54:41
of these big questions and big issues that we're finding, overfishing, climate
54:45
change, marine pollution, plastic pollution, coastal development, all
54:50
the things that, are sometimes out of our control or seem out of our control
54:53
and how we can communicate best.
54:55
And Judy mentions at the end of the interview that, hey, you know what?
54:58
Like just learning about the ocean, talking about it to others, doing local
55:02
activities, that will really help.
55:03
I would love to add on joining an organization that has a lot of community
55:07
activities, 'cause not only are you going for the impact of doing a beach cleanup or
55:10
doing something, you are actually engaging with other people with similar values.
55:14
And we need that socially as humans to engage with people where you can talk
55:18
about the environment, not get attacked like sometimes, that'll happen online.
55:21
For me, I like talking to people about it, through the podcast, through
55:25
friends, to be really engaged with people who care about the ocean.
55:28
And that I think is really important to help get over any type of
55:31
eco-anxiety, whether it's climate change or ocean issues that you face.
55:35
But I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
55:37
Hit me up in the comments.
55:38
If you're on Spotify, there's a comment section.
55:40
If you want to DM me either on LinkedIn or you can DM me on Instagram,
55:45
TikTok, Facebook, whatever you'd like.
55:47
my social links are in the show notes.
55:50
I'd love to hear more from you and more about where you're coming from
55:54
in terms of learning the ocean and what you would like to learn more
55:56
about, and some of the questions that are driving you nuts about the ocean
55:59
and what can be done better about it, or maybe it's already being done.
56:02
You just don't know, and I haven't put it on the podcast yet.
56:04
I'd love to do that.
56:05
So let me know how you feel about it.
56:07
Thank you again to Judy.
56:08
I'll put her links down to MPA Day, to all the different
56:11
links that she shared with me.
56:13
so you'll be able to take care of that.
56:14
And don't forget to tune in for the rest of the week.
56:16
We're gonna be diving into the different aspects of, communication and the
56:20
ocean for the rest of the week in my solo episodes from Tuesday to Friday.
56:23
Hit that follow button if you wanna find that out.
56:25
And thank you so much for joining me.
56:26
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
56:27
Have a great day.
56:28
We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.