Latest / Pod Save America / “SCOTUS Gives Trump Notice.”

Transcript

“SCOTUS Gives Trump Notice.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Dan talks to Rashad Robinson from Color
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of Change, one of the activists leading the fight against
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Facebook's handling of hate speech and misinformation. I also talked
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: to Rebecca Nagel, host of Crooked Media's This Land, about
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: this morning's Supreme Court ruling about Native rights. Before that,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about why Donald Trump is bullying schools to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: reopen this fall, whether or not it's safe to do so,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: how Joe Biden is consolidating support among the progressive left,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and yes... We're even going to briefly touch on Kanye
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: West's latest flirtation with running for president. But first, check
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: out this week's Pod Save the World. It has everything.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: The Brazilian president catches COVID, mysterious explosions at an Iranian
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: military site, and our good friend and chief domestic policy
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: advisor for Barack Obama, Cecilia Munoz, explains Trump's latest efforts
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: to punish immigrants and how the next administration can fix it. Tomorrow,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: we also have our third and final installment of That's
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: the Ticket, Dan and Alyssa's bonus series on the vice
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: presidential selection process. Dan, what's in the finale?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: We're going to reveal who Joe Biden's going to pick.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Perfect finale. I'm so glad they decided to do it
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: right here on Pride State of America. This is what
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: they've been with. This is why we haven't gotten the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Biden interview. We've been waiting.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: It's going to come as a surprise to Joe Biden.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: But no, in all seriousness, Alyssa and I talk about
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: the factors that Joe Biden in every previous election nominee
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: looks at when they make the decision. And we're going
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: to talk about how those announcements are made. And Alyssa's
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: got some really good ideas for Joe Biden on how
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: he could make his announcement, hopefully soon.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Excellent. Everyone check it out. It has been fantastic. I've
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: loved every episode. I'll miss it when it's gone. Finally,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: now that Adopt-A-State organizing trainings are all wrapped up, we
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: need you to check your email. which is where your
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: friends at Vote Save America will be sending you state-specific
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: volunteer opportunities. If you haven't already signed up, it's not
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: too late. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash adopt and join the
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: thousands of volunteers out there looking to flip some swing states.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: And you know, maybe you adopt Arizona. Maybe you think
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: that's important.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, you could do that. You could also adopt
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: North Carolina and elect a senator or a governor, flip
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: a state house, all kinds of cool things.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: You can do that. You can do a lot of
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: that in Arizona as well. Anyway, anyway. All right. I
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: want to start with some pretty big news from the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court this morning with a ruling that upholds the
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: treaty that says nearly half the land in Oklahoma is
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a reservation that belongs to Native Americans. To give us
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: a little more insight about what this means, we're joined
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: now by Rebecca Nagel, an Oklahoma journalist and citizen of
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the Cherokee Nation, whose podcast, This Land, is tells the
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: riveting story behind this case and what's at stake. Rebecca
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: is releasing a bonus episode of This Land next week,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: where she'll talk more about all of this. But for now,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So big day, good day. For those of us who
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: haven't had a chance to dive into This Land yet,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: can you give a quick summary of what this case
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: was about and what was at stake here?
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so the case was brought by a man named
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: Jim C. McGirt, who was convicted of crimes by the
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: state of Oklahoma. He is a tribal citizen, and his
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: crimes happened on the reservation of Muskogee Creek Nation. And
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: so he appealed his conviction all the way to the
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: Supreme Court, arguing that Oklahoma did not have the jurisdiction
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: to convict him because his crimes happened on a reservation.
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: A reservation that Oklahoma for the past century has acted
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: as if it no longer existed. And so that was
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: really what the thrust of this case was, is does
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: Muscogee Creek Nation and by extension, a total of five
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: tribes in eastern Oklahoma still have their reservations or because,
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: you know, So much time has passed or it would
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: be extremely inconvenient for all the white people who live there.
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: Is there some other conclusion that the courts can come to?
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: And in a decision that did not hold back at all,
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: Gorsuch wrote that basically, you know, this land was promised
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: to Muskogee Creek Nation and that the Supreme Court was
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: going to hold the government to its word.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Can you give us a little bit of your reaction
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: when you read the ruling this morning since you have
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: been investigating this, researching this, following this for so long?
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I woke up this morning very emotional
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: and not like with a sinking stomach in my gut.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: You know, I mean, I think throughout history....
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: You know, indigenous people in this country, you know, the
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: government has just invented new reasons and new ways to
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: take away our land.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: And so I was like crying.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: I was brushing my teeth.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: I was, I was ready. I was already full of
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: rage and sadness.
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: And then the second the decision came out, I, the
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: first thing I looked for actually was who wrote it.
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: And when I saw that it was written by Gorsuch and, Um,
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: I just, I started crying and, um.
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was, it was really emotional. Um, it's been
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: really dry here.
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: And for people who know Eastern Oklahoma, like we, we
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: get a lot of rain, um, and you know, like
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: all of the grass in.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: My lawn is dead. It's just been very dry.
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: And right around the time, um, that the decision came out,
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: it just started pouring and, um.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: I'm going to start crying, but it's just, you know.
• 6:00
  Speaker 5: Over the course of history, you know, we have really
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: just asked for the United States to follow its own laws,
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: you know, its own constitution, its own set of laws that.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: Govern our rights and our land rights. And so, so
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: rarely it does.
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: And so it's just such a big win when people
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: in power, you know, use that power the right way.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: For those of our listeners who haven't yet listened to
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: this land, could you explain a little bit about why
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: when you saw that Gorsuch, a usually very conservative justice,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: was writing the majority opinion that that was what made
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: you realize that the ruling went the right way?
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: So, I mean, I think that when it comes to
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: Indian law, like you, you can't, you can't talk about parties.
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, Native Americans tend to be Democrats
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: and Democrats tend to support Native issues. But, you know,
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: like I think a really good example is that we
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: got four, we have four Native people in Congress right now.
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: Two of them are Democrats and two of them are Republicans,
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: you know? And so, um, Gorsuch is what people call
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: a textualist. So he looks at the law, he looks
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: at the plain text of the law, and he interprets that.
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: And the plain text of the Constitution, the plain text
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: of these treaties, says that this land is still reservations.
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: A lot of textualists don't apply that to treaties and
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: to laws governing Native rights, but Gorsuch does, and he.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: Does it uncompromisingly.
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: And so, yeah, I think that him being added to
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, if we can keep Ginsburg on our.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: Side, we might actually, for the first time in U.S. history.
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: see a court that tends to rule in the.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: Favor of Native rights.
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: We, throughout history, have basically lost the majority of time
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: that our rights have gone up against the Supreme Court.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Well, on that note, I mean, what, if anything, will
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: change as a result of this ruling? And what other
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: cases involving Native rights do you have your eye on?
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's a really good question.
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: So, I mean, what's funny about this historic ruling and
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: what's going to change on the ground is that the
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: answer is actually very little. So the Supreme Court has
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: actually really limited tribal jurisdiction over both non-Indians on reservations
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: and land on reservations that's.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: Also owned by non-Indians.
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: And that's, you know, the majority of the residents and
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: the majority of land on these reservations. And so, you know,
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: for folks who, you know, live in Jinx, Oklahoma, like,
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: their life is going to go forward without much difference.
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: I think what it really changes for the tribes is that,
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: you know, we have been losing land and losing restricted
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: status on our land for over a century. You know,
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: it's just been the slow bleed of the laws that
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: Oklahoma set up when it was created as a state.
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: And so I think that this really affirms our sovereignty
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: and lets us rebuild. You know, I always talk about, like,
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: in Cherokee history, everyone points to the Trail of Tears as,
• 9:09
  Speaker 5: you know, the most traumatic moment in our history.
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: But from that moment, we rebuilt.
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: Actually, the period of Cherokee history right after the Trail
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: of Tears is called the Golden Era because we flourished
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: in our new land. But then when Oklahoma was created
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: on top of our land, it was divided up. We
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: were preyed upon. Our land was stolen. Like we have
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: never fully recovered from that history. And so I think
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: of this decision as a opportunity for our tribes to
• 9:35
  Speaker 5: start to rebuild with our sovereignty and our land rights
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: finally being recognized.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So one last question before I let you go. What
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: are some of the things that people can do right
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: now to ensure that this national focus on systemic racism
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: and injustice includes Native rights?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah.
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that that's a really, really important point
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: because I think that one of the ways that anti-indigenous racism.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: Functions is erasure, right?
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: And so it's like, you know, to everybody listening to
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: this podcast, I would challenge you to name the people
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: whose land you live on, you know, name an important
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: Supreme Court decision throughout history that's not this one that
• 10:12
  Speaker 5: impacted Native rights.
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: Like you've probably never.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: Heard of, you know, Oliphant or the Marshall trilogy, you know,
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: these like foundational things.
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: And so I think that, you know, that.
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: Invisibility is absolutely why we get Supreme Court decisions that
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: make no sense and rule against tribes all the time.
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: And so I think it's really an opportunity for people
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: to both educate themselves and also to, you know, consistently
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: do that for it to not just be, you know,
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: this moment or this flashpoint, but for it to be
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: something that is an everyday part of the media and
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: the news that people are consuming.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Very good advice. Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you for making this land. Everyone go check it
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: out if you haven't already and be on the lookout
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: next week for a special bonus episode of This Land.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Rebecca Nagel,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: good day. Thanks for being here for part of it.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, so Dan, the other major piece of news from
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court this morning that we should just briefly
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: mention is The justices rejected President Trump's argument that he has, quote,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: absolute immunity while he's in office and opened the door
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: for prosecutors to obtain his financial records. The court actually
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: ruled in two cases, one involving Manhattan's district attorney, the
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: other House Democrats. While the ruling clears the way for
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Manhattan's D.A. to pursue a subpoena for the records, the
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: case is going back to a lower court and Trump's
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: records are probably going to be kept secret under grand
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: jury rules until after the election ends. In the other case,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: the one that involved the congressional request from House Democrats,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: the court basically pushed things back to a lower court
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: and ruled that the House can't have access to the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: same records for now, citing some issues that have been
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: unresolved about the separation of powers. Trump took the news
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: very well this morning, rushed to Twitter to complain about
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: how unfair the court was to him. threw in some
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: other grievances about the Mueller hoax and Obamagate. He wrote,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: this is all a political prosecution. I won the Mueller
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: witch hunt and others, and now I have to keep
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: fighting in a politically corrupt New York. Not fair to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: this presidency or administration. Dan, you have any reactions to
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: the other rulings from this morning?
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I think these rulings are good for the rule
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of law over the long term. We shouldn't have to
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: point out that presidents are eligible for criminal prosecution if
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: they are suspected of committing crimes. And we shouldn't have
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to point out that they are not immune from congressional oversight.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: But I think these rulings are a loss in the
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: sense that the way the Supreme Court very specifically wrote this,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: it is going to deny voters the ability to know what,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: if any, conflicts of interest Donald Trump has before they
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: have to vote in November.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, he has them.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can just presume, I guess. So the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: real political upside is.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Plenty of evidence. Plenty of evidence points to the idea that, yes,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: he does. He has plenty of conflicts of interest. He
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: is plenty corrupt.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a blank canvas, thanks to Supreme Court. That's
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: the other way of thinking about it.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I do think, and you know, it does leave him open. Hopefully,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: if Joe Biden wins and he leaves office and Donald
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Trump leaves office, it really does open him up to
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: prosecution in the Manhattan DA case, I think. which is
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: something that, you know, we can all look forward to.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Because we care about the law. We care about justice
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: being done. That's why.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Let's get to some other news of the day. Dan,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: on last week's episode, we answered a listener question about
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: schools reopening this fall. You know, it's a very challenging
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: issue for kids, teachers, parents, the economy. Kind of issue that,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: you know, really... really deserves thoughtful debate grounded in science.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: But we live in Donald Trump's America, so shortly after
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the CDC released guidelines for safely bringing students back to school,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the president jumped on Twitter on Wednesday and accused the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: agency of asking schools to do very, quote, tough, expensive,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: and impractical things, threatened to cut funding for schools if
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: they refused to just open, and accused Democrats of wanting
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: schools to remain closed for political reasons. Later in the day,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Vice President Mike Pence said that the CDC would be
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: issuing new guidance for schools And that the White House
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: would be, quote, looking for ways to give states a
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: strong incentive encouragement to get kids back in school as
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Congress takes up this next round of pandemic relief. So, Dan,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: here is just some of what the CDC proposed in
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: their original guidelines that sent Trump spiraling. Desks at least
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: six feet apart and facing the same direction. Lunch in
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: classrooms instead of a cafeteria. Staggered arrival times. Cloth masks
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: for staff. And daily temperature screenings for everyone. What's Trump's
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: problem with all that?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: It's not clear what his problem is. It's very common sense.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: This is a very complicated issue where we have very
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: little information. And so I want to try to separate
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: various parts of it. One, the things that the CDC
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: is asking are not on paper hard. But because we
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: have been underfunding public education for decades in this country,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: there is many classrooms overcrowded. And so six feet apart
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: is not an option in many, many, many classrooms. Because
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: we are in the middle of a pandemic and the
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: economy has gone through the floor, there is not money
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: for testing. And I think perhaps most importantly, we have
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: not spent the many months since we began responding to
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: the coronavirus to prepare for this moment. Federal government has
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: done essentially nothing to help school districts do this. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: so Trump has sort of like woke up school starting
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: in a few weeks and realized that there is no
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: plan and there's nothing to do. So he just wants
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to shove kids into schools without a plan to make
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: it safe for both the students, but also the teachers
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: and everyone else who works in a school.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: So I guess the threat of cutting funding for schools
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: from the Trump administration is not really going to help
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: this situation in any kind of way.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also not real, right? 90% of funding for
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: schools is state and local.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: And there's a question he can't really do. I mean,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: there is the I guess we should say that the
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: in terms of pandemic relief and there is some money
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: for schools in the last round of relief. And there
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: has been money proposed for schools in the current relief
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: that there's going to they're going to be debating over
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the next few months. So there is some thought that
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the Trump administration could play around with that. But certainly
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: most of the money that schools get is from state
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: and local governments.
• 16:56
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Like the overwhelming majority of Trump threats. This one is
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: not based in reality.
• 17:03
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Why do you think Trump's picking this fight right now?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: He's desperately looking for a fight.
• 17:10
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Like he is a man who he only thinks of
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: politics in the context of wedge issues. And this is
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: a really, really hard thing for parents. Right. You know,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: people have been working from home with kids. That is
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: essentially an impossible situation.
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: And if you talk to any parent of young children,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: the idea that their kids will still be home doing
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: distance learning throughout the fall is devastating. And it's devastating
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: for their ability to be functioning adults and to do
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: their jobs. And it's devastating for their children because the
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: distance learning thing is basically impossible. It has very limited impact,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: you know, depending on the age of, you know, certainly
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: for you know, the age of the children. And I
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: think unlike previous fights that Trump has picked about the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: opening of the economy and masks and things like that,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: he has some backing on his side, right? The Academy
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: of Pediatrics have recommended that schools open, right? If, you know,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: with some caveats about safety, but there is a belief
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: that schools need to open both for the well-being of children,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: both in the short term and long term, and for
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: the economy, because the economy cannot open if people's kids
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: can't go to school because people can't work. And so-
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: He's looking for a wedge issue. I think he's making
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: the same mistake he's made on every part of this,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: which is just by looking for the issue, he's simply
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: revealing that he has not done the work it takes
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: to solve the problem.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, thinking that like, you know, it's obviously
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: not just Trump that wants schools open. You know, the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: American Academy of Pediatrics also issued guidelines on how to
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: safely reopen schools. I guess the question is, I always
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: like to play the game of like, what if we
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: were in a normal administration that was not Trump? And
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: we had this challenge of opening schools safely in the
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: middle of a pandemic that has not died down. What
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: would it look like to open schools safely? And where
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: should Joe Biden and the Democrats be on this one?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that just like with the economy, Joe
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Biden and the Democrats should work to avoid Trump sort
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: of bifurcating the issue on he's for opening schools and
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Democrats are for closing schools. because that's not their position, right?
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: It's open without a plan or open with a plan.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: And so having a plan is the way to do it.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, and Democrats do, you know, they have taken
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: steps in Congress to have funding for testing, for schools
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: to help them do this. There are a number of
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: other ideas out there. So like having a very specific
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: plan helps with that challenge. In a normal world, I mean,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: this is like, this is, complicated by the fact that
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: we know so little about this virus. We don't really,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: you know, there's been like, I have read so much
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: about this because our daughter who, there's only two, but
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: like under the normal course of business was planning to
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: start in two weeks to go to a, you know,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: a several day a week program for two-year-olds. And so,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: you know, you see all these studies about how kids
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: have gone back to school in Europe and Asia, and
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: there have not been transmission of COVID. But also, you know,
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and Trump made that point in his tweet. He said
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the schools are open in all these countries. But those
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: countries did the work to contain the spread of the virus,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and they're having a couple hundred cases a day. You know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: we're setting new records on a daily basis of coronavirus infections.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: And so what it looks like is, I think, ramping
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: up testing, ramping up contract tracing, ramping up resources for
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: schools to Emily Oster, who is a Brown economist and
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: writes a lot of books for parents, you will soon
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: read a lot of Emily Oster.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I've been reading Cribsheet to prepare.
• 20:52
  Speaker 8: Yes.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: And she has an idea where you take young people,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: particularly college students who may be taking a gap year
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: because their schools are not coming back in a full
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: session and hire them to work in schools. They're not
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: trained teachers, but they can help facilitate, you know, activities
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: and other things in order to, you know, sort of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: separate kids. So, you know, you can reduce the number
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: of kids in a classroom at one time because the
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: limits on how you do social distancing are both room
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: in the class and number of adults who can watch
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: the kids safely. And like, there's a whole host of
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: things you could do to get people to do it.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: You could surge funding to get you know, search, teach
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: for America and things like that. But none of those
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: things are happening. We did nothing, right? It's like we,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: as a country, we made two fundamental errors, which is
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: the whole point of flattening the curve is to prepare.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And if we had really thought this through, we would
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: have worked backwards from the opening of school. Because that
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: is the thing. Because when the virus started, it was
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: a couple months, then summer. And you could manage that,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: both from a kid's learning perspective and an economic perspective.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: And then you could– and so you would say everything
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: we are doing is to reduce the spread to a
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: manageable level and to prepare in terms of infrastructure and
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: funding and teachers for opening of school. We did none
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: of that. And then we did incredibly stupid things, which
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: was we prioritized opening of bars and indoor dining over
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: risk management to make it more likely that schools can
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: open safely. And so like it is a gigantic mess
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: and we have lacked any federal– leadership as evidenced by
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the fact that Trump is tweeting at his own CDC
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: about their guidelines as opposed to picking up the phone
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and calling them.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: It's such a mess. I mean, look, you know, and
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: this is in the American Academy of Pediatrics statement and
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: guidance to like, you know, there is evidence that obviously
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: kids don't contract this virus as easily or pass it
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: on as easily. Younger children, especially. But of course, there
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: are people with sort of underlying conditions that you have
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to think about. There are teachers, there are older teachers.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: This is not an easy thing to figure out, even
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: when you stipulate that distance learning is not only hard,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: but not nearly as effective and not doable for many
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: middle class and lower class families. And so we do
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: have this challenge. It's not an easy solution, but it
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: does seem like you said that a normal working government
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: would adequately resource schools, would have also made sure that
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: we don't have sort of out of control outbreaks in
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of places where we have out of control
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: outbreaks right now, because sort of having communities with lower
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: transmission is probably the best way to guarantee that schools
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: are safe. You could do, like you said, frequent testing
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: of all students and teachers constantly. You could, and then
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a contact tracing program where you isolate people who do
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: catch the virus as fast as possible to cut down
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: on the spread and You could have classroom outdoor. You
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: could open windows. You could do all these things. But,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: you know, we are, because of Trump and his mismanagement,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in the situation we're always in, where it's going to
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: become some political fight, right? And it's just going to
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: be like, they want to have one side be for
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: opening schools and one side for not being open for
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: opening schools, when the reality is a complicated debate that
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: takes science and education experts and parents and everyone to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: like sort of come together and figure out the best
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: solution possible. to a very difficult challenge. And that is
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: where we are right now. And it is fucking infuriating. I,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you know, I.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Get the sense, John, it's only been three and a
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: half years, but bringing in data science is a way
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: to solve complex problems is not necessarily in Trump's, uh, skillset.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's just, it's fucking brutal.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the Democratic Party, which may
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: be on the verge of becoming, at least for this election,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: one big happy dysfunctional family.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Not even that dysfunctional.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Not even that dysfunctional. Well, there's always some dysfunction, so
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I had to throw that in there. First, some evidence
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: from data guru Nate Cohn of the New York Times.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: In their most recent poll, voters in the battleground states
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: who said Bernie Sanders was their top choice for president said,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: said they backed Joe Biden over President Trump 87% to 4%.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Democrats who said Elizabeth Warren was their top choice in
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the primary backed Mr. Biden over Mr. Trump by a
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: staggering margin of 96% to zero. Not a single Elizabeth
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Warren supporter to be found who's not backing Joe Biden. Dan,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: how did we get from all those contentious primary debates
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: and Twitter wars to this?
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it is safe to say that the
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: panic over a divided Democratic Party was even overstated at
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: the time. And that is born of, you know, just,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: you know, we laugh about it, but the press is
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: obsessed with the Dems in disarray narrative. And, you know,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: in some of the, certainly there are some particularly loud
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: voices on Twitter who drove that conversation in the run
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: up to ending of the primary, I would say. But
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: it's also the backdrop has changed, which is that this
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: was always going to be an incredibly consequential and serious election,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: but it feels exponentially more with what's happening right now, right?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: The time to play around and you know, sort of
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: try to make, you know, make a statement or whatever
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: else with your vote feels so disconnected from what is happening.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: And the idea, you know, and the people who, you know,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: this was a common refrain among a very small percentage
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: of people, but a consequential percentage of people in 2016,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: which is Trump and Hillary are not that different, right?
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Just when you look at what has happened in this
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: country since coronavirus hit, even if you had ignored everything
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: that happened previously since Trump was elected, you just cannot,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: like the consequences of having Trump and uniquely Trump and
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: uniquely a Republican who hates government in charge of the
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: government at a time of a pandemic and historical unemployment
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: is so obvious that it pushes for unity. And I
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: think the other thing is credit should go to Joe Biden.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, yeah.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: And his campaign and all of his opponents, most notably
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders, for working incredibly hard to unify the party
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: after this.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: There's a few things going on. And so it's, it's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: hard to sort of cite any one factor as to
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: what has changed, right? Like you, we, we can't sort
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: of rerun 2020 with Hillary Clinton as the nominee and say, okay,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: would it be different this time? Because people have seen
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: what Trump is like for four years. And so they
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: would be backing Hillary right now, much like they are
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: backing Joe Biden. Like we, we can't do that, but that,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: that could be a factor. Trump obviously could be a
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: driving factor in all this. Um, You know, Nate points
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: out in his piece in The New York Times how
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: it wasn't quite like this in 2016. You know, some
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: research suggests that up to 12 percent of Sanders primary
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: supporters ended up backing Trump in the general election. But
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: then Nate points out that these voters tended to be
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: relatively conservative, white and rural and didn't actually come back
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: to Bernie in the 2020 primaries. What did you think
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: of that point?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think that is certainly right that there
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: may be some number of people who were in, you know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: that we thought of as Sanders supporters in 2016 that
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: we as Democrats have not seen since, right? Sanders' coalition
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: was different this time. And it was a coalition that
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: was much more liberal, much more uniformly liberal, and therefore
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: more willing, it seems, to back the Democrat over the Republican.
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: And like you said, I think there are, you know,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: There are differences in how the candidates and their supporters
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: acted in 2020 versus 2016. You know, and there was
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: two big examples of sort of this interparty dynamic of
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: coming together has been playing out. Both happened on Wednesday.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: The first was when our good friend and activist Adi
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Barkan announced he'll be endorsing Joe Biden after finally landing
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: an interview with the former vice president for Adi's series
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: where he interviewed all the candidates in the primary election.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Here is a clip of that conversation between Adi and
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden.
• 29:20
  Speaker 6: Vice President Biden, I can't imagine there isn't a moment
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: that this campaign is not in some way bittersweet. Even
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: though it sometimes feels impossible, I keep fighting for health
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: care and doing the work I do for my son, Carl,
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: and my daughter, Willow. I just want them to be
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: proud of me. From everything I have heard and read,
• 29:41
  Speaker 6: your son, Beau, was an exceptional man. I am so
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: sorry for your loss. If he were with us today,
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: what do you think he would be saying to the
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: American people? What would be his guidance in this difficult hour?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 30:00
  Speaker 7: I hope he'd be saying that my father is totally authentic.
• 30:11
  Speaker 7: Whatever he says he'll do, he will try to do.
• 30:15
  Speaker 7: He'll never mislead you. When he makes a mistake, he'll
• 30:18
  Speaker 7: tell you he made a mistake and take responsibility. And
• 30:22
  Speaker 7: even if it's not popular, he will push things that
• 30:26
  Speaker 7: he feels are a matter of principle. that relate to
• 30:29
  Speaker 7: our values. I hope that's what he would say because
• 30:35
  Speaker 7: it is, my dad used to have an expression. He'd say,
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: you know your success as a father if you turn
• 30:48
  Speaker 7: and look at your child and realize he or she
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: turned out better than you. When Beau died, Brock did
• 30:56
  Speaker 7: the eulogy. He said, Beau Biden was Joe 2.0. That's
• 31:02
  Speaker 7: the whole thing, to be objective, have objective standards. I've
• 31:08
  Speaker 7: been fairly successful, but my children have done better than
• 31:13
  Speaker 7: I have done. Every day I ask, and I said,
• 31:16
  Speaker 7: honest to God, truth, and you'll be asking yourself too,
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: how are my kids going to remember me? Are they
• 31:24
  Speaker 7: proud of me?
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: That's why I do the work I do. to make
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: sure that Willow and Carl are proud of me. Thank you, Mr.
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: Vice President, for this conversation. I am eager to do
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: everything I can to help you win in November. And
• 31:41
  Speaker 6: I look forward to having you as our president next year.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Dan, what'd you think of the interview and Adi's endorsement?
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, like I had to take a moment to
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: collect myself before we could do this part because I mean, obviously,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: we've talked about Adi a lot over the last few
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: years we've been doing this, and he is one of
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: the most inspiring people that we've ever been around. And
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: listening to him talk about how he is spending the
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: last parts of his life doing this work for his
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: kids and for every kid gets me every single time.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And then listening to Joe Biden. talk about what drives
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: him and how he has dealt with the loss of Beau,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: which is something that, you know, I think it's unimaginable
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: to anyone, but particularly to any parent about what losing
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: a child would be like, no matter how old they are,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: whether they're younger or, you know, adults like Beau. And
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: it's just, you know, it's like, it's hard and inspiring
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: all at the what it makes me think about him
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and why I think he is uniquely positioned to lead
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: this country at this time is, you know, like Joe
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Biden sort of describes him as like a regular guy, right?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Like that's how politicians like to do it. Like I'm
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: from Scranton and I'm middle-class Joe. And like, I think
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: that is certainly true. And having known Joe Biden for
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: a long time, like Scranton and his neighborhood of Claymont, Delaware, which,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you know, near where I grew up, like, I think
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: those values are part of him, but it, It's not
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: like Joe Biden, regular guy. It's like Joe Biden, regular human.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: He's a human who has his emotions and his flaws
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: on his sleeve at all times. And they're there for
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: the world to see. And he does think and wrestle
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: with his own flaws and his own imperfections in a
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: very public and I think reassuring way that is different
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: than the way a lot of politicians handle it. And
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: that came through in that interview. And, and like, obviously
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: we were talking, we're doing this in the context of
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: a unified democratic party and having one of America's most
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: important and most prominent advocates for Medicare for all endorsing
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden on this day means something. But I think
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: that conversation also revealed a lot about what is great
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: about both of those men.
• 34:13
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: And look, you know, you say he's a regular person,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: but there there's nothing regular, or at least there's nothing
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: typical about, about the sheer amount of tragedy that he
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: has faced in his life, losing so many immediate family
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: members and doing so while living a very public life
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: as a public figure. And I think in a moment
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: where the country's going through such tragedy and such loss,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: that does make him uniquely qualified in one way. Look,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: I love the interview for all the reasons you said.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I had always told Adi that I thought he would
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: connect with Biden on that level, even as they disagreed.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: And what I also liked about the full interview, which
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: you should all go watch, it's on NowThis, and go
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: to Adi's Twitter feed and you can see all the clips, is,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you know, they both stood their ground on what they believed, too.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: And they weren't afraid to disagree with each other. And
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: we know this because Adi's done this on the pod
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: so many times. Adi was not afraid to press him.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: It was not just some softball interview where they pretended
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: to get along and agree on everything. You know, they
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: went back and forth on Medicare for all. And, you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Biden said how much he hated insurance companies, too, and
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: has had to deal with insurance companies. He's not he's
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: no fan of private insurance, but also thinks it's sort
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of the best way right now to get to full coverage.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Talked about his public options, said that he'd be going
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: further than he did in the primary election. sort of
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: nodded at more ideas to come, especially around providing for
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: the option to have home care paid for and elder
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: care paid for, not as part of Medicare, but just
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: as a basic right. Also, when they were talking about
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: criminal justice, Biden talked about banning no-knock warrants, which he's
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: mentioned before, but also talked about redirecting some funding for police.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Even though he said he does not agree with defund
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: the police, he's open to redirecting some police funding. And
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: there's one moment when I think Biden talked about how
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: he wants to propose $ 50 billion for the National Institutes
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: of Health. Adi said that wasn't enough. And then Biden said, well,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: if it's not enough, when I'm president, you come to
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: me and we'll talk about it. We'll figure it out.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: And I do think that sort of reveals the kind
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: of presidency that Joe Biden would offer. It's not going
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to please progressives all the time, but there's always going
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: to be a seat at the table for them. And
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: he's always going to listen. And there are times when
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: he's going to change his mind and agree with them.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And there are times when he's not, but he's open
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: and he listens, you know, which I think is really important.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: And that sort of speaks to, I think the other
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: big news on this front yesterday was the release of
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: the Biden-Sanders unity task force recommendations. They were on six issues,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: the environment, criminal justice, the economy, education, healthcare, and immigration.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: The document with the full statements and recommendation is 110
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: pages long. So we won't go through it all, but
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: here are some of the highlights on healthcare and Biden
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: now supports all low-income Americans would be automatically enrolled in
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: either Medicaid or a premium-free public option government health care program.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: On climate, a commitment to carbon-free power by 2035 instead
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: of his original 2050. On criminal justice, automatically expunging marijuana convictions.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Didn't go so far as to favor federal legalization, but
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: does leave legalization up to the states and decriminalizes. There's
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: plenty more. But here's what Bernie Sanders said about the recommendations.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: This is from Bernie. He said, quote, if implemented, they
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: will make Joe Biden the most progressive president since FDR.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: That is from Bernie Sanders. Dan, what did you think
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: of the recommendations? And are there any big ones that
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I missed that you found notable?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think there's any big ones you missed.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I think those are those are right. And I mean,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: those are the most important ones. I think It's the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: point you just made, which is the progress that was
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: made demonstrates that Joe Biden is A, willing to listen,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: and B, he can be moved with activism. And so
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I think it is a message to everyone who cares
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: about climate, Medicare for all, legalization of marijuana, that the
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: work doesn't end on the day Joe Biden is sworn in.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: You can keep pushing him and keep engaging with him
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: in good faith. And there is a real opportunity to
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: make progress. And I think it is to the credit
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: of everyone involved in both the Biden side and the
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Sanders side that this process worked out the way it did.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: There were a thousand potential pitfalls here where people could
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: be unwilling to move on issues and people were willing
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: to compromise on both sides. And you end up in
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: a world where you have Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweeting about support
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: for Joe Biden's climate agenda and what happened. You have
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: the activists on the side understanding, like sanity reigned here.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: And I think it's really important progress and people should
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: feel good about it. Because I think so often, you know,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: when these working groups are first started, it's like, oh,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: it's a working group. It's going to be about as
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: consequential as the platform, which doesn't really matter. But actual
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: real progress was made. So the starting point on what
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's public option looks like when he gets to
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Congress and introduces it has moved, has become more progressive
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: and more bold because of this work. The starting point
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: for the conversation around what we're going to do on climate,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: both from his executive actions within his government to what
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: happens in the House and the Senate, has moved to
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: be more progressive because of this work. And I think
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: that progress should not be discounted by anyone, even if
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: people didn't get everything they wanted.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, I think that, you know, some
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: of the folks from the Sunrise movement were tweeting about
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: this yesterday. And I think so often we talk about
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: these sort of unity task forces and coming together in
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: terms of, you know, building a coalition that can win
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the election. But it's clear that progress was made on
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: a real substantive policy front that if Biden wins, will
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: sort of pay dividends in a Biden administration. And when
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: the Sunrise folks were tweeting about this, they said, you know,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: we're really hopeful, not just because, Joe Biden was a
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: nice guy and accepted recommendations, but because we have built
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a movement that is powerful enough to compel potentially the
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: next president of the United States to adopt some of
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: the goals of that movement, which is a real, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you know, AOC sort of said the same thing. It's
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: a real recognition of the power of activism and the
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: power of electoral politics. Because I think we're at a
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: moment right now where there's a lot of young people
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: who are very progressive, but sometimes they are cynical for
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: good reason about politics and public life and electoral politics.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: And this is another example. And, you know, Adi proves
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: this as well. This is another example that when you
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: mix activism with electoral politics, good things can happen and
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: you can actually make progress. And it doesn't happen quickly.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: And there are setbacks, but it can happen.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: The conversation we just had about the policy working groups
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: and the polling are not disconnected, right? Which is, Joe
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Biden is in a commanding political position, both in his
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: party and in the electorate. And so there could have
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: been a world where he said, look, I won the primary.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I won it by a lot. I am winning. I
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: don't have to make any concessions. But there was compromise there.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: And there was a world where Sanders supporters could say, look,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: you're winning by a lot. We don't have to give
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you our votes. There could be a 2016 redux in
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: that situation. And everyone avoided that potential trap and actual
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: progress was made that if Joe Biden is elected, will
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: make people's lives better. And that's all you can ask for.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Or by the way, they could have said, we're for
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Medicare for all and we're for the Green New Deal.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: And those are our plans. And if you're not for
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: those plans, we don't have anything else to talk about.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: And they didn't say that. They didn't say that. So
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: it's good on them as well. One more point on
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: consolidating the Democratic coalition before we move on. It's not
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: all optimism. Dave Wasserman from Cook Political Report noted that
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: even though Biden is doing better among progressives and young
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: people than Hillary did in 2016. He's actually doing slightly
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: worse with non-white voters than she did, particularly with Latino voters,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: almost even with black voters, although not quite. But especially
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: with Latino voters, Biden's winning them by an average of
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: 30 points instead of 40 points. What's your reaction to that?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: What's going on there?
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Well, as you know, I like to find things to
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: worry about.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: So I was pleased to- I know, that's why you
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: added that in the outline.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Of course. Yes, it makes me feel more comfortable to
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: sort of end this good news parade that I get
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: from the rest of Crooked Media. I mean, I think
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: we should all be concerned about it, right? Like, I mean,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: this is something I've written about recently, but this is
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Trump's strategy is to shave Biden's margins with these elements
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: of the Democratic base. And they're running ads right now.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: They're running ads in Spanish in Arizona and Florida and
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: elsewhere in the country that accuse Biden of cognitive decline
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and not up to the task. They are running ads
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: in Philadelphia and in other markets with a high proportion
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: of African-American voters about Joe Biden's criminal justice record in
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: the 90s. Now, the Trump campaign is not super smart.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: So they're also running ads accusing Joe Biden of defunding
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the police in those same markets, in those same newscasts.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: So they don't really have a true strategy. But it
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: is something that is concerning. And look, if the margins
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: stay where they are right now, it's not going to
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: make a huge difference. But there's a very real chance
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: that Trump will stabilize some politically, if not emotionally. And
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: if that happens, then this can matter because we talk
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: a lot about Arizona, we talk a lot about Florida,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: but if you are significantly underperforming Hillary Clinton with Latino voters,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: you're going to have real troubles in those states because
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: the difference between Hillary Clinton's loss and a Joe Biden
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: win in Arizona is not just white people in the suburbs.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: It's also a effort to organize, register, and turn out
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Latino voters, same situation in Florida. And Michigan, Pennsylvania, and
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin are states that went red in 2016, in part
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: because of lower turnout among African Americans in those states.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And so there is work to do here. There is
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: time to do that work. But we should not take
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: comfort in the fact that Joe Biden's doing so well
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: with other groups that he may not need these voters.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: That would be a fatal error in my view.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And I'll just say from doing the wilderness and talking
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: to a lot of these voters myself in some of
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: these states, you know, these are not necessarily voters who
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: are saying Joe Biden's too moderate for me. These are
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: voters who, and this is what Stacey Abrams told me.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: This is what Cornell Belcher, who you've talked to for
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Campaign Experts React, had told me. This is what a
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: lot of the organizers who are working with Latino communities
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: in Florida told me, and this is what the voters
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: themselves told me, is that these are voters who are
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: very cynical about politics in general and distrustful of the system.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And part of the reason they're distrustful, especially black voters,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: is because they know their votes have been suppressed in
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: the past, that their voting rights have been restricted. And,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: you know, the thing that always sticks with me is
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Cornell telling me that a lot of voters who voted
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: for Stacey Abrams in Georgia in 2018 think, you know,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: She won that race and she's not governor. Why should
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: I even bother again? And reaching these voters, a lot
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: of and a lot of them are black and Latino
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: and young. Reaching these voters is really going to require
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: the sort of, you know, close, I would say in person,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: but it's in the middle of a pandemic. But really
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: sort of intense organizing and relational organizing and talking to
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: people one on one. talking to people who are friends
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and friends of friends. And this is really going to
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: be the work of both the Biden campaign and their organizers,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: but sort of all of us, all of us who
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: are working on Vote Save America and Adopt a State.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: And we're going to have specific calls to actions that
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: were given to us by some of these groups that
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: are working to organize Black and Latino voters in some
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: of these states. I think that's going to be the
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: real work of the next couple of months ahead of 2020.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And it's also going to
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: be– obviously organizing is a huge part of any and
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: all political success. But you also have to give voters–
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: these voters a reason to believe why this time is
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: going to be different. And that is certainly about how
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you're going to deliver on the promises that you make
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: after decades upon decades of politicians not delivering on those promises.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: But it's also convincing people their vote is going to count.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Like that's the big impact. Like that is the part
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: of voter suppression that– we don't pay enough attention to,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: which is sometimes you see just how explicit Brian Kemp
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: was in Georgia in keeping people from voting. You're like,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: these guys are the least subtle criminals in history. But
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: the lack of subtlety is a feature, not a bug.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: They don't want to just make sure your vote doesn't count.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: They want you to know your vote's not going to count.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: The more explicit the voter suppression, the better, because that
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: means the next time, why would you stand in line
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: for hours upon hours, particularly at the risk of getting coronavirus,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: if we're probably just going to throw your vote out anyway, right?
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Or your machine's not going to work. And for all
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: the insanity we see around Trump's crazy vote by mail tweets,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: there is a purpose in that, right? And that is
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: to convince Democratic voters, particularly African-Americans and Latinos who are
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: skeptical of, for good reason, that of voting and whether
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: the votes will count, that they're unlikely to do so.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: And so there are a lot of elements of this,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: but this is something that All of us, right? This
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: is not advice for Joe Biden time. This is for
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: everyone up and down the ballot, every volunteer to think
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: about how we can combat this because this election has
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: a very real chance of being very, very close.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: One last item we were initially reluctant to talk about,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: but people have asked. So here we go. We're going
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: to cover it really quickly. Just answer your questions. Kanye
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: West has once again floated a run for the presidency.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: He was immediately endorsed by Elon Musk. This is the
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: This is the world we live in, Dan. In a
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: wide-ranging interview with Forbes, which is putting it very generously,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: we have learned that Kanye would run as part of
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the birthday party, that he's never voted before, that he's
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: an anti-vaxxer, that Planned Parenthood, he believes, is a white
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: supremacist organization that does the devil's work, and that he's
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: okay with siphoning off black votes from the Democratic nominee,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: even if it means helping Trump. Look, I don't want
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: to sit here and analyze Kanye. Let's just answer the question.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: At this late point, Can he get on the ballot
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: in every state as a third party candidate?
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Can he? In every state?
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: No.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Can he get on the ballot in some states?
• 49:07
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Is it easy?
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: No.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Is it possible?
• 49:11
  Speaker 8: Yes.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Like, let me give you an example, right? So Michigan,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: the deadline for an independent candidate in Michigan has not
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: yet passed.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: We need to get 12,000 signatures by July 16th, which
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: is in one week. And so that seems possible, but
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: not probable. Some states are easier. Some states it's quite easy.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: As you may remember from Tiger King, Joe Exotic got
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: on the ballot. So it is very possible that you
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: can do that, but it's unlikely, I think. And he's
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: not someone who has shown a ton of organizational follow
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: through in recent years.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: So, um, I, well, it looks like as of, as
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: of this recording on July 9th, uh, it still doesn't
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: appear that he is registered as a candidate with the FEC, uh,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: according to publicly available records, a candidate by the name
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: of Kanye D's nuts West registered as a green party
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: candidate in 2015, but it's not reported raising any funds. Um,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: You know, he did already miss the deadline in North Carolina, Texas,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: New Mexico and Indiana. And the states that have July
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: deadlines like Michigan are some big ones. Colorado, Florida, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: South Carolina, West Virginia, Maine, New York all have July deadlines.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: So and if he doesn't make those deadlines, then, you know,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: you're you have write in options, a write in campaign.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: That's quite difficult to impossible to pull off as well.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: So that's where we are on this.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, here's what I would say. Do not
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: pay a lot of attention to this yet. Do not
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: worry about this. If all of a sudden Kanye starts hiring,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: if he registers as a candidate without the middle name
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Deez Nuts, or starts hiring organizers, then now it's time
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: to at least pay attention to it. Before that, this
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: is just sort of clickbait for people stuck at home.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: I would say that a plan where Kanye runs for
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: president to siphon off black voters from Joe Biden is
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the exact sort of plan that Trump and Joe Kushner
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: would come up with because it's so obvious and so
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: stupid and so likely to fail. But this seems to
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: be more like Kanye sort of popping off as he
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: is want to do. And it potentially could be related
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: to some sort of music project, sneaker line dropping or
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: something like that. Because usually when he gets very engaged
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: in the world publicly, it's because there's something that he
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: wants to promote coming down the pike.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: And we should say one last serious point on this
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: related to third parties in general. And we've sort of
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: made this point before, but the New York Times had
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: another piece based on their poll about sort of third
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: party candidates in 2020. A lot of pollsters are finding
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: much less appetite for third party candidates this time around. A,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: that tends to happen during elections where there is an
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: incumbent on the ballot. In 2004, when it was Bush
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: versus Kerry, in 2012, when it was Obama versus Romney,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: the third party share of the vote in both of
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: those elections was way, way down, around 1%. It's much
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: different when it's an open election, like in 2016, then
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: the third party share goes up. And I think also
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: because so many voters have such strong feelings about Donald Trump,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: this incumbent particularly, pollsters are finding that when they give
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: people the option to select a third party candidate in
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of polls, they are not doing so. They
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: are actually choosing between Trump or Biden, or at least
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: saying they're undecided between those two. So that's sort of
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: the larger third party landscape for everyone. That's a real
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: point to make within this Kanye silliness.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Do you feel less good about yourself now that we've
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: talked about this?
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. Of course. Of course. On Sunday morning,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I was texting with Tommy about whether we should talk
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: about it Monday, and we were both like, this is ridiculous.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: And then after a week of some of this coverage
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: and it lingering out there, I was like, let's just
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: answer it for folks, and then we can move on.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I've had a lot of people tweet at me asking
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: them if this is something they should worry about. I
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: kind of want to be like, we are in the
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: middle of a pandemic. You can probably find something else
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: other than this to worry about.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: As we say here, at least as I say, worry
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: about everything, panic about nothing. And that is true for
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Kanye as is true for anything else.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: When we come back, Dan talks to Rashad Robinson from
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Color of Change.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: He's the president of Color of Change, an online racial
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: justice organization. Rashad Robinson, welcome to Positive America.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: You and Color of Change have been spearheading a campaign
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: called Stop Hate for Profit, targeting hate speech on Facebook.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Can you let our listeners know what it is you
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: guys are trying to get Facebook to do and sort
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: of help them understand what the problem is?
• 54:04
  Speaker 8: So we have a list of 10 demands, and they
• 54:06
  Speaker 8: are really rooted in years of back and forth with Facebook,
• 54:10
  Speaker 8: not just by social justice organizations and users, but by
• 54:14
  Speaker 8: the corporations themselves who have joined us in this campaign
• 54:17
  Speaker 8: nearly a thousand corporations at this point have signed on
• 54:22
  Speaker 8: to stop hate for profit. One of the kind of
• 54:25
  Speaker 8: ongoing areas of problems at Facebook is an incentive structure
• 54:29
  Speaker 8: that's focused on growth in profit over civil rights, security, integrity.
• 54:34
  Speaker 8: And so what I mean by that is that the
• 54:37
  Speaker 8: decisions about what type of content stays up or comes down,
• 54:43
  Speaker 8: particularly when it relates to politicians and political speech, voter suppression,
• 54:47
  Speaker 8: things like that, runs directly through their government department, not
• 54:51
  Speaker 8: sort of in a separate sort of entity. And so
• 54:54
  Speaker 8: as a result, Donald Trump gets to lie about voter
• 54:57
  Speaker 8: suppression on the platform. Donald Trump can post something about
• 55:00
  Speaker 8: looters and shooters, which is clearly a cry and a
• 55:03
  Speaker 8: call for vigilantes to sort of show up and push
• 55:09
  Speaker 8: back against protesters as He's sort.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Of alluded to and then posted, and they will leave
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: that up.
• 55:15
  Speaker 8: In fact, Mark Zuckerberg will call Donald Trump to have
• 55:18
  Speaker 8: a conversation. Over the years, we've pushed on Facebook around
• 55:22
  Speaker 8: their advertising, their targeting advertising that would allow you to
• 55:26
  Speaker 8: target a job just at men or target housing just
• 55:29
  Speaker 8: at white people, avoiding previous civil rights laws that we've
• 55:33
  Speaker 8: won and fought for. Over the years, we've been able
• 55:36
  Speaker 8: to get them to change those things, but every single.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Change over the years have come with fights and campaigns.
• 55:42
  Speaker 8: In fact, those changes around the marketing came after the
• 55:49
  Speaker 8: ACLU and others had to sue Facebook. And finally, we
• 55:53
  Speaker 8: had to demand Facebook settle those lawsuits when they were
• 55:56
  Speaker 8: still fighting them in court. There are white nationalist organizations
• 56:01
  Speaker 8: currently on Facebook with groups that are talking about a
• 56:05
  Speaker 8: second civil war. and are posting and putting up content.
• 56:09
  Speaker 8: And then advertisers, ads are showing up next to their content,
• 56:14
  Speaker 8: unbeknownst to these advertisers. All of this, right, is a
• 56:18
  Speaker 8: kind of climate and a context where the profit motives
• 56:21
  Speaker 8: and the growth motives of this platform run up against
• 56:25
  Speaker 8: sort of the decency and all of the sort of
• 56:29
  Speaker 8: real clear ideas around freedom of speech. which doesn't allow
• 56:33
  Speaker 8: MSNBC to run ads that are full of lies, doesn't
• 56:38
  Speaker 8: allow Fox News to run ads that directly call for
• 56:43
  Speaker 8: the killing of folks, even if I may disagree with
• 56:46
  Speaker 8: a lot of things on Fox News. And Mark Zuckerberg
• 56:49
  Speaker 8: will say things like, our AI catches 89% of this,
• 56:54
  Speaker 8: but not give us transparency around his AI. We know
• 56:57
  Speaker 8: that the content is all over the place. And so
• 56:59
  Speaker 8: in many ways, when they tell us these stories, We
• 57:01
  Speaker 8: see the hurricane that's happening outside on Facebook. And then
• 57:05
  Speaker 8: Facebook hands us an umbrella and expects us to think
• 57:08
  Speaker 8: that that's going to be enough.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: So you were in a meeting. I would normally say,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: take us inside the room, but take us inside the Zoom,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I guess. But yeah, you were part of a meeting
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: via Zoom with Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook executives earlier this week.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us about what, A, what you expected
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: going into that meeting and what, if anything, came out
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: of it?
• 57:29
  Speaker 8: So, you know, I've been meeting with the Facebook folks
• 57:33
  Speaker 8: for the last five years at different levels. And since 2018,
• 57:37
  Speaker 8: really meeting with folks at the senior level, because in 2018,
• 57:41
  Speaker 8: the New York Times revealed that Facebook had hired a
• 57:44
  Speaker 8: PR firm called Definers to attack color of change. and
• 57:48
  Speaker 8: run sort of negative stories against us. And so at
• 57:50
  Speaker 8: that point, we ended up, you know, kind of moving
• 57:54
  Speaker 8: from meeting with, you know, government relations staff and others
• 57:57
  Speaker 8: about our demands to meeting directly with Sheryl Sandberg and others.
• 58:02
  Speaker 8: And so, you know, we met this week, which was
• 58:04
  Speaker 8: for me a follow-up on a meeting that I had
• 58:08
  Speaker 8: with them on June 1st, also on Zoom. And in
• 58:12
  Speaker 8: both those meetings, you know, Facebook has had our demands, right?
• 58:15
  Speaker 8: They've had sort of the things that we've wanted. And
• 58:18
  Speaker 8: walking into this campaign with the other members of the
• 58:21
  Speaker 8: Stop Hate for Profit Coalition, we wanted Facebook to tell
• 58:27
  Speaker 8: us what they were going to work on. Because to
• 58:28
  Speaker 8: be clear, they asked for the meeting. We didn't ask
• 58:31
  Speaker 8: for the meeting. They reached out and said, we want
• 58:33
  Speaker 8: to meet with you. So I was like, let's go
• 58:35
  Speaker 8: to the meeting and let's hear what they've got to say.
• 58:38
  Speaker 8: And they did. wanted to walk through our demands and
• 58:43
  Speaker 8: have us walk through them and explain them more. And
• 58:45
  Speaker 8: we were like, well, no, you've had these demands for years.
• 58:49
  Speaker 8: Some of these demands are right out of previous iterations
• 58:53
  Speaker 8: of your civil rights audit that you funded and.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: Has been out in the world.
• 58:59
  Speaker 8: But I think the meeting ended up with a lot
• 59:02
  Speaker 8: of sort of back and forth, a lot of trying
• 59:05
  Speaker 8: to get into the nuances. I think the one thing
• 59:09
  Speaker 8: that they did sort of speak to is the hiring
• 59:12
  Speaker 8: of a vice president sort of connected and dealing with
• 59:16
  Speaker 8: civil rights. We were asking for someone in the C-suite.
• 59:19
  Speaker 8: They put someone who's going to be a vice president.
• 59:21
  Speaker 8: It remains to be seen how much power reach and
• 59:25
  Speaker 8: budget this person will have.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: But that, I think, if anything, is one sort of
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: step forward.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: All of these social media platforms have real challenges when
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: it comes to hate speech. Facebook is unique in their
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: sort of, I think, obstinance here, like Twitter and YouTube,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: for as small as these steps may be, have taken
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: some steps. What is it you think that is unique
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: about Facebook that is making them so difficult?
• 59:50
  Speaker 8: So, The company is, first of all, so much bigger
• 59:52
  Speaker 8: than these other companies. When you think about the sort
• 59:55
  Speaker 8: of size of YouTube and Twitter, you can combine their
• 59:59
  Speaker 8: users and it won't get you anywhere near really Facebook
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 8: in terms of its reach with 2.6 billion followers, more.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: Kind of followers than Christianity.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 8: And so just in that regard, they have insulated themselves
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 8: from a lot of public pressure, the public pressure around ads.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 8: They have so many advertisers that no single advertiser represents
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 8: even a kind of percentage of the final sort of
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 8: $ 70 billion ad profit. And then you've got sort of
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 8: a whole set of other things working at Facebook where
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 8: they are really worried about regulation and they are really
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 8: worried about government oversight and they are really worried about
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 8: new rules because they should be, because they are currently
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 8: operating under rules that were created before these platforms even existed.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 8: And so because of that, right, they have created an
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 8: infrastructure inside of Facebook that once again allows for the
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 8: folks who are supposed to be dealing with government relations,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 8: global government relations, and they're the folks who the decisions
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 8: about how so much of this content is dealt with,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 8: those decisions flow through those people. And so what's happened
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 8: in this current political era is this idea of conservative
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 8: bias has been weaponized inside of Facebook so that every
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 8: time they sort of deal with something that is hate
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 8: towards LGBT folks or women or Black folks or other
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 8: folks of color, they.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 8: I have to put it through the lens of, well,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 8: what are we doing about conservative bias? Now, we live
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 8: in a country that has laws, rules, and regulations about
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 8: protecting protected classes, why we call them protected classes. You
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 8: don't get protected because you're a liberal or you're conservative,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 8: you get protected based off of things that you can't change,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 8: based off of who you are.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: And there are sort of histories and rules around that.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 8: But they have weaponized this idea of conservative bias to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 8: the point where I will be sort of pushing back
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 8: on some of the decision trees inside of Facebook And
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 8: Mark will say to me, like, you just don't want
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 8: us to hire Republicans. And I will say this is
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 8: not about right or left. This is about right or wrong.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 8: And this is really clearly about, you know, who makes
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 8: the decision and what their job is every day. And
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 8: if I and if you have someone like Joel Kaplan,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 8: which and so I've said I don't want someone who's
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 8: a Democrat who's like in charge of being with the administration,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 8: having this job. But I also don't want a false equivalency.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 8: that Joel Kaplan, who sat behind Brett Kavanaugh during the
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 8: hearings and threw a party for him afterwards, would be
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 8: the type of person that would make it harder for
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 8: my grandparents to be able to vote when they were
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 8: fighting to be able to get access to the ballot.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 8: And that right there is the person who then gets
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 8: to decide whether or not something is voter suppression or
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 8: not because this stuff runs through him and the policy department.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's obviously a world in which you know,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: we wake up in 2021 and Donald Trump is no
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: longer president. And so we no longer be in a
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: situation where we have a politician whose hate speech is
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: being protected by Facebook, but hate speech is a much
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: bigger problem than just Trump on Facebook. You talk a
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: little bit about that and particularly what's happening with some
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: of the, you know, in the list of the things
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: you're asking Facebook for, you talk about what's happening with
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: white supremacy and within Facebook groups.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 8: So first of all, before I get to the white
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 8: supremacy and Facebook groups, I know when we talk about politicians,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 8: we spend a lot of time without Trump. But I'm
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 8: also talking about the sheriffs in Arizona who may say,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 8: don't show up to the polls because we're going to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 8: be collecting papers. The council person in Mississippi who is
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 8: saying he's going to be checking criminal records at the
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 8: polls and making sure no one is voting illegally because
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 8: they've been incarcerated. I'm talking about a whole range of
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 8: politicians who have been incentivized in the history of voter
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 8: suppression and the history of tactics that get supercharged in
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 8: this platform, but you're right. There are all sorts of
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 8: groups on Facebook that continue to pop up and are
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 8: allowed to flourish. There are white nationalist groups that are
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 8: invited to set up new properties once they get on.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 8: And then their properties, the Facebook closed groups, the Facebook pages, then,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 8: you know, get spread and amplified. Because, right, the incentive
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 8: of Facebook is profit. And so if a kind of
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 8: closed group is getting a lot of people joining and
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 8: they are sort of calling for a second civil war,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 8: then Facebook will start running ads against that, right? And so,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 8: you know, we've had to show and members of the
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 8: coalition have had to show, like, Major corporations, their corporate
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 8: logo and brands, their ads sitting right.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: Next to white nationalist.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 8: Content that not only has been sort of allowed on
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 8: the platform, but is given sort of permission to flourish
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 8: because the sort of algorithms, the rules of the platform
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 8: incentivize this type of content, incentivize the growth of it
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 8: because it all serves the bottom line of Facebook.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Hate for profit, essentially, as you say. Color of Change
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: has also spearheaded a campaign for justice for the murder
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: of Breonna Taylor. And none of the officers involved have
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: faced any criminal charges and only one has been fired.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: What does justice look like in that situation? And how
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: can our listeners continue to put pressure on officials to
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: do the right thing here?
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: So a couple of things.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 8: One, you should go to colorofchange.org and you should sign
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 8: our petition, which is working to translate that energy both
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 8: locally to build power around call tools that we've created
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 8: to send calls directly to folks there, to build energy
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 8: in the media more publicly. But part of what we've
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 8: been doing over the last several years is building kind
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 8: of a platform around district attorneys. 70% of DAs in
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 8: this country run unopposed, 90%.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: Of DAs are white.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 8: We have a real problem with district attorneys actually prosecuting
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 8: police in this country Because the incentive structures that have
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 8: been set up means that district attorneys have to work
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 8: with police every single day. And they believe that they
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 8: serve police, not the public. And I recently wrote about
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 8: this in a New York Times op-ed piece where I
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 8: really talked about all the challenges that even progressive district
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 8: attorneys who are elected into office and get all sorts
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 8: of challenges face. to any type of changes from judges,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 8: from the towns who will see a decrease in jail size,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 8: to the.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: Fraternal order of police.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 8: And the police unions and fraternal order of police are
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 8: just incredibly powerful forces right now that protect police. And
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 8: so we also have to hold politicians accountable that say
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 8: that they are working with us, but are taking money
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 8: from police unions.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: There are a.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 8: Lot of barriers that are standing in the way of
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 8: justice for Brianna. And I want people just to sort
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 8: of think about this for a second. with all the attention,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 8: all the celebrities, all the energy, all the rallies for
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 8: justice for Breonna, and those police officers still have not
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 8: been arrested.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: Think about all the other.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 8: Incidents around the country where not as much attention gets
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 8: onto it, where not as much energy gets focused. and
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 8: think about sort of all the ways in which we
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 8: have very different tiers of justice in this country, very
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 8: different systems of rules.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: And that all relates back to power.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 8: And so part of what we are really trying to
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 8: do is rewrite the sort of rules of power.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: I talked about that sort of the.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 8: Fraternal order of police constantly standing in the way of power.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 8: And this all connects, right, to how we're thinking about
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 8: justice for Breonna. Signing that petition is one thing, getting
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 8: involved in work to hold DAs accountable, and then challenging
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 8: police unions and challenging the forces that stand in the
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 8: way in progress. In Cook County, Chicago, Kim Fox, who's
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 8: the district attorney that was elected by a lot of
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 8: movement organizations who helped power her race in, and she
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 8: went in and has lowered jail sizes, has reduced jail size,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 8: has done a number of things to kind of advance
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 8: criminal justice reform, along with Larry Krasner in Philadelphia, and
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 8: the district attorney in San Francisco and others are really
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 8: ushering in a new era of DA reform and DA accountability. Well,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 8: Kim Fox decides she's not gonna prosecute low-level crimes anymore.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 8: It's going to reduce some overtime for police. They decide
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 8: to march on her office. everything's fine here, right? Police
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 8: unions marching on the DA's office, that's First Amendment rights, right?
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 8: They then, they're marching though, according to the Chicago Sun-Times,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 8: with four white nationalist groups, one being the Proud Boys.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: So they are marching on the first Black.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 8: Woman DA's office because she does something that she is
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 8: absolutely allowed to do. They take out pictures of Kim
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 8: Fox's face and they rub her face on their crotch,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 8: the pictures of her face.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: And then they do it in plain sight.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 8: Newspapers there, media that they've invited there.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: They feel totally comfortable.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 8: The next day, those same police officers put on their uniforms,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 8: their badges and their guns, and they go back into.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: Our communities to protect and serve.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 8: And so part of why people are hearing calls about
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 8: defund the police or downsize policing or invest divest is
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 8: because we actually have to deal with the fact that
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 8: we have been investing in the wrong thing and that
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 8: police officers have not been at the table to actually
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 8: make fundamental changes because they're not interested and fundamental changes
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 8: to safety and justice. And so all of this is
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 8: really connected. So yes, justice for Breonna, but part of
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 8: how we really, really, I believe serve the long-term goals
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 8: of justice for Breonna is that we undo all of
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 8: the barriers to justice for the next Breonna Taylor as well.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 8: And we make the system right by changing the systemic
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 8: challenges to any type of justice and freedom for our communities.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Rashad, thank you so much for all of your work.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: And thank you much for joining us on Pod Save America.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Everything you're doing is so important.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Appreciate you.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Rashad Robinson for joining us. Thanks to Rebecca
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: Nagel for joining us. And everyone have a fantastic weekend.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: And we'll see you next week.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: Bye, everyone.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: every week.