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How the Space Between the Promise and the Land Shaped Josh Henry's Patience · I Don't Know You

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Matt,
0:05
SPEAKER_01: and welcome to my recorded conversations for I Don't Know You,
0:08
SPEAKER_01: my search in learning from leaders about their stories and applying their lessons
0:12
SPEAKER_01: to my own journey as I seek to better understand myself.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy what you hear or have a guest you'd like me to ask on,
0:19
SPEAKER_01: I I'd love to hear from you.
0:20
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0:21
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0:23
SPEAKER_01: share it with a friend, and follow me for more of this kind of content.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm joined by my friend Josh Henry.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: He's been a part of my story for over a decade.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: We met working together at Apple,
0:33
SPEAKER_01: and I got to watch I am super excited and grateful that you are willing to take
0:37
SPEAKER_01: the time in the midst of your
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm, I'm curious kind of like, what's the short version of growing up in Australia?
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Like what brought you out to the States?
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Obviously we could like spend hours and hours, um, going into all that.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then kind of underneath that, like, how did, how did you think about work growing up?
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Cause I think like,
1:54
SPEAKER_01: even in the way that I'm thinking about work and how I grew up and the examples
1:58
SPEAKER_01: that I had, I'm curious how that kind of shaped you and your, your context.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question, bro.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think like it's fun being an Aussie living in America.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I think I always had a sense,
2:13
SPEAKER_00: when I say always,
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean in my formative years as a teenager,
2:17
SPEAKER_00: I had this sense, I think I'm going to leave the nest somewhat early.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: I just had this desire,
2:24
SPEAKER_00: maybe this built-in desire to go, to leave and not that life was tough in any means.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: It was beautiful and I love Australia.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: It's always going to be home.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: But I think, man, I would call it early grace.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: There was an early grace from God of like, hey,
2:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to prepare you because when you're 18, 19, you're going to go, you know.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I always had that sense.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, growing up in Sydney and, um,
2:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:55
SPEAKER_00: God kind of my teenage years put America on my heart,
2:59
SPEAKER_00: even just to visit of just like, okay,
3:01
SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to visit Yosemite and, you know, like see the golden gate bridge.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
3:06
SPEAKER_00: there's,
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I think Australians love like all of those aspects of what makes America, America.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: So late in my teenage years, I guess when I was 17, 18, I felt these two desires in me.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: One of them was to youth pastor and just really give everything to the next generation.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: And the other was actually to be a journalist and to kind of go
3:31
SPEAKER_00: the almost writing broadcast space.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I ended up getting a degree in journalism.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: And in that process, I studied abroad in America, which I think was so incredible.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: You know,
3:47
SPEAKER_00: like I would recommend that to anyone like a study abroad,
3:51
SPEAKER_00: just to go, you know, like I'm such a believer in the go.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Leave your comfort zone,
3:56
SPEAKER_00: leave the space where you just know everyone,
3:59
SPEAKER_00: know everything and go into the deep end, man.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
4:03
SPEAKER_00: And so it was in my first trip to America
4:06
SPEAKER_00: that I feel like God really birthed this desire for nonprofit and,
4:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, like to chase people.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: A cause or to tether myself to a cause that was like near to the heart of God.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: And that for me was human trafficking.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: When I discovered human trafficking, I was like, I have to do something about this.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it's so heartbreaking and I can't believe this exists and I've got to do something.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: And so that led me to this resolve.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Like when I go back to Oz, I'm going to volunteer at an anti-trafficking organization.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Like that's just the plan.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And I ended up doing that with an organization called A21, which is an incredible organization.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: And on my first day, I met my now wife, which was wild.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
5:01
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't have predicted,
5:03
SPEAKER_00: but about a year and a half from meeting her,
5:07
SPEAKER_00: first day at A21, that I would be packing my bags, and this time more permanently.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: Moving to Orange County, California and saying yes to the God adventure.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: I always call it the trifecta.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: So for me, I had three things, three reasons that I was just so convinced.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: I was convinced that this is what I was meant to do because a lot
5:33
SPEAKER_00: of people are like, whoa, that's a big deal moving for a girl, like whatever.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: But I think that there was a trifecta that gave me peace.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: The first was her, the girl, like Kayla.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: There was something about her where I was honestly – I was in awe of meeting a girl
5:52
SPEAKER_00: who really wanted to use her life to make a difference in the world.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: I really foolishly believe I can change the world.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: I was in awe of that and not just within her but also the community
6:09
SPEAKER_00: that I found myself in with A21.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: So that was number one.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm like going for a girl.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Number two was just the cause.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Like I'd fall in love with the cause.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: Head office was in California.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like I got swept up into this beautiful ministry.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: This fruitful ministry where I felt like, man,
6:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually living on purpose and doing something that I'm using some skills
6:39
SPEAKER_00: and some gifts that God has been developing in me for something that I really love
6:44
SPEAKER_00: to do.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: And the last one was just really cool.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is the kindness of God.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: When I studied abroad, I was in Newport Beach.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: And as I was getting on my bus to go up to Sacramento, Um, I,
7:00
SPEAKER_00: I heard that voice,
7:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:01
SPEAKER_00: the still small whisper,
7:03
SPEAKER_00: the Holy Spirit,
7:05
SPEAKER_00: this inner impression that was just, Hey,
7:07
SPEAKER_00: you're going to live here one day,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: you know, literally Newport beach, you're going to live in Newport beach one day.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, amazing.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: I just tucked it away.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
7:16
SPEAKER_00: It was one of those, what you don't do anything.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: You just put it on the shelf and you go, okay.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: I have this deep impression.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know,
7:24
SPEAKER_00: a year and a bit later,
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I have my girlfriend telling me I've been offered a job in Newport Beach,
7:30
SPEAKER_00: California.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, okay, no brainer.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Like a hundred percent I'm going.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: The ocean, the way I'm in.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just a big fan.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I like to call the call of God an ever-expanding horizon.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: In other words, my favorite word is adventure.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: I think when Jesus says, come and follow me, The first thing that comes to mind is adventure.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not comfort.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not ease, but I don't want comfort and ease.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
8:03
SPEAKER_00: I want to be with Him and I want to do incredible things for the kingdom of God
8:10
SPEAKER_00: in this blip, this small time I have on earth.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: So that's what brought me to America.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: It was just pack the bags, one-way ticket.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And I had that sense.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm ever going to move back.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm going to go.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: We're going to get married.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's going to be it.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: And so now, Matt, 11 years, mate.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: 11 years in America and we obviously, you know, you were there when I moved.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: It was just, we met,
8:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:40
SPEAKER_00: working at Apple and it's like,
8:42
SPEAKER_00: this is such a good job for me to like find my feet
8:46
SPEAKER_00: and volunteer pretty much full time and then also pay the bills, you know.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
8:54
SPEAKER_00: so you saw me really at that initial moment of like,
8:58
SPEAKER_00: wow, like my whole life has just changed, you know.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, and even back then,
9:04
SPEAKER_01: I think like that's one of the things that has persisted in our friendship and kind
9:09
SPEAKER_01: of through the years grown apart because of all the stuff that's happened.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: But like the infectiousness with which you have for life in general,
9:20
SPEAKER_01: that sense of adventure,
9:21
SPEAKER_01: like it's hard to not smile when I'm like talking about Josh and Kayla
9:26
SPEAKER_01: to like someone.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: The kind of the influence that they had on me,
9:31
SPEAKER_01: like even when we worked together at A21 and working together at Apple too,
9:36
SPEAKER_01: where it was like, oh,
9:37
SPEAKER_01: like I hope I'm on shift with Josh and like Robbie,
9:41
SPEAKER_01: because it's these guys, they're so fun.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: And there's a joy that they have in them that most people working in that scenario didn't have.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you remember all the,
9:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
9:53
SPEAKER_01: all the random drama and like not trying to be a part of that or whatever, but Um,
9:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
9:59
SPEAKER_01: just the,
9:59
SPEAKER_01: the joy that you guys had, um,
10:02
SPEAKER_01: and the infectious,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: obviously that's like a,
10:04
SPEAKER_01: that's a testament to your relationship with Jesus and,
10:07
SPEAKER_01: uh, the way that you, you allowed him to, to lead your life through that.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm,
10:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, like,
10:15
SPEAKER_01: as you kind of transitioned into,
10:17
SPEAKER_01: to full-time work at 821,
10:20
SPEAKER_01: cause like when we met You had already been volunteering basically full time.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: And then I think a year into us working together at Apple, you made that transition.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I might be foggy on the timeline there.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious,
10:36
SPEAKER_01: as you were starting to lead people,
10:38
SPEAKER_01: because you kind of shifted into a role doing like marketing, directing for A21.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Was there someone that you led or served with that kind of
10:49
SPEAKER_01: without knowing it became like a mirror for you in some way,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: even from like an inspiration or an encouragement standpoint
10:57
SPEAKER_01: that showed you like more about yourself or about like God through that experience?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's such a good question, mate.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: it's almost like I mentioned a little earlier meeting Kayla and just feeling kind
11:14
SPEAKER_00: of like in awe of just like, oh man, these are my people.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: And I would say, again, it was the kindness of God.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful as I reflect to be a part of a ministry
11:25
SPEAKER_00: that I would describe my bosses,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: Nick and Chris, as charge hell with a water pistol kind of people.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's darkness, but let's go and find the darkness with the light of Jesus Christ.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: We're not just going to hide and just wait for Jesus to come back.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
11:48
SPEAKER_00: There was a real grit and an edginess.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: To the kind of leadership, yes, that I found myself under visionary.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Full of anchored in hope, but also social justice.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: So like I am going, I cared deeply.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, it was essentially being surrounded by 30.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, like you obviously contracted and did some work.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like surrounded by people who are like,
12:14
SPEAKER_00: who have prayed this prayer, break my heart for what breaks yours.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Like the whole idea of like, now that I've seen this, I am responsible.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to take responsibility.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Take a step.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: So man, I think really formative to be around,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: so much growth in me to be around people that thought that way.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the humility, right?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Like have this mind among you that is yours in Christ Jesus,
12:43
SPEAKER_00: where you consider other people, right?
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Like you're not driven by selfish ambition,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: but there's this thing in you that's like,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm here to serve, I'm here to love people.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Man, really cool to be immersed in that environment and having leaders.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Some of my leaders back then are like brothers and sisters to me now.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: We've continued relationship.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it was the nature of a job that doesn't even really feel like a job.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: It feels like a family.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And so huge.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: And then,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: of course,
13:18
SPEAKER_00: like any environment,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: leaders who really challenged me,
13:23
SPEAKER_00: leaders that I disagreed with or,
13:27
SPEAKER_00: you know, just had some friction, had some frustrations.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And that in and of itself will grow you a ton, you know, arguably more.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I felt like I had leaders that, you know, you described it as a mirror.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think that thing in me that has always wanted to charge hell with
14:09
SPEAKER_00: a water pill,
14:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, that thing in me that's always been like, I want to live for that.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: I want to live for something bigger than myself.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: I saw that in the people that I was around constantly.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: And so it was just a rich and beautiful season.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's even what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Nick and Chris are like David and Goliath type people.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Just the type of faith that they have around like, yeah, this is an extremely huge problem.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think my response to really big problems a lot of the time is like, That's really big.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Like someone better figure that out.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Instead of like, no, no, no.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Like the, the God of the Bible is behind us and he can do anything.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And so like the,
15:03
SPEAKER_01: the kind of audacity that like David talking to the King and being like,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Hey man, like why is nobody going up against Goliath?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Like a hundred percent.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: We can totally do this.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Like you guys are, You guys are missing the point.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And so, yes.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, like,
15:22
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
15:23
SPEAKER_00: like Chris,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: for those people listening,
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Chris Kane,
15:26
SPEAKER_00: who's amazing, she she modeled this so well as well in that she was, I think, 40.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: When she found out about human trafficking.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that in and of itself was a huge inspiration to me of just like,
15:41
SPEAKER_00: she's like, she's not going, man, I'm so locked into this one path.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm an evangelist.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm a preacher.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Like she had her own ministries happening, equipment and power ministries.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: But she is a beautiful testament of like, I think the parable of the Good Samaritan.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Do I have eyes to see?
16:01
SPEAKER_00: Am I willing to see?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Because when I see, you know what I mean?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Like when God grips me, even if I'm 45.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: I never want to live my life where I'm so, God, you can use me as long as it's in this box.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: As long as it fits into this box of my preferences or even what I think you're going
16:21
SPEAKER_00: to always do with my life.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: I think there's beauty in actually going, hey, I'm going to follow him.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: And so even if I'm in my 30s,
16:30
SPEAKER_00: 40s, if he puts something fresh on my heart, I want to give him my yes.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, man, it's really cool.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, that segues perfectly into my next question.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious how, like, again,
16:45
SPEAKER_01: in the season of saying yes to the adventure of God and whatever he has for us,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:53
SPEAKER_01: There's, again, for me,
16:54
SPEAKER_01: there's this pull to be productive rather than like,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: and productivity is not a bad thing,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: but I think it's like,
17:01
SPEAKER_01: how do we find that tension in the faithfulness of like relying on God
17:06
SPEAKER_01: and also being productive?
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, like,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: what would you want to understand about seasons where God is like doing nothing
17:15
SPEAKER_01: in your eyes,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: but like being faithful to him is its own like growing process that like
17:22
SPEAKER_01: in hindsight,
17:23
SPEAKER_01: you're like, well,
17:24
SPEAKER_01: if I wasn't like faithful in this thing that I maybe didn't understand was happening
17:29
SPEAKER_01: at the time, I couldn't have seen it like grow into something.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: I think work in and of itself and productivity that comes from work Is not the enemy, right?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: If you think about God's original design, there's dignity.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I love what Tim Keller says, like every good endeavor, there's dignity to everything that we do.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Adam, in the picture of the original design,
17:59
SPEAKER_00: he's working, he's tending to the field, he's making things grow.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's beauty in that.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: I think what you're touching on is that there can be this systemic,
18:08
SPEAKER_00: I think what can happen is your identity can get tethered to your work.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I have to be productive.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I have to accomplish these goals.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: I have to reach this measure of success in order to be somebody.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is the antithesis of the gospel.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, like Tim Keller talks about it.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Christianity is the only identity that is received and not achieved.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: So we live in a world where it's just like,
18:34
SPEAKER_00: I have to be productive in order to achieve my worth and my value.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: The gospel flips all of that and it's about,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: hey, you've already been given intrinsic worth and value.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: You are already a son and a daughter.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Therefore,
18:49
SPEAKER_00: you were released to do your best and to work really hard and to be productive and
18:55
SPEAKER_00: The difference is I'm not getting my,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: you know, success or failure is not going to break me down with that.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
19:04
SPEAKER_00: But to address timing, I mean, I just think no one does timing better than God.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, like He is the God of perfect timing.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: He's the God of seasons.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, like He, you know, what does it say in Ecclesiastes?
19:19
SPEAKER_00: He makes everything beautiful in its time.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And so I think the quicker we can embrace God's timing and realize
19:26
SPEAKER_00: that his timing can be very different to our sense of timing,
19:31
SPEAKER_00: the quicker we can embrace his timing and almost like relinquish control, right?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: I think about all the times Jesus himself says, my hour has not yet come.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: He has an acute awareness.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: You might think this is the hour, but actually my hour has not yet come.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's, again,
19:52
SPEAKER_00: I believe it's Ecclesiastes, like know the importance of the season that you're in.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that God can almost reveal to us of just like,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: hey, I'm up to more than you can imagine.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing things,
20:07
SPEAKER_00: some things you can see tangibly,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: some things you have no idea, and that's where trust comes in.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the greatest gifts in life is to actually be at the center
20:19
SPEAKER_00: of God's will and to be in step, in pace with Him.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And so I think what it comes down to is in some ways you live in tension.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: You live in tension in what I would call the space between, right?
20:34
SPEAKER_00: The space between the promise and the land,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: the space between words or a sense of where you're going and the fulfillment, right?
20:44
SPEAKER_00: That middle ground,
20:45
SPEAKER_00: one of my favorite scriptures is like,
20:46
SPEAKER_00: hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: John Eldridge talks about this.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: We all want the longing fulfilled, but none of us want the heart sickness of hope deferred.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And yet God oftentimes has us going through the hope deferred,
21:02
SPEAKER_00: the vulnerability of, I think he's going to do this at some point.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm going somewhere.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: I just can't fully see it.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: And again, you're constantly invited back into a place of trust.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Do I trust him?
21:19
SPEAKER_00: And then I think you're also invited in any season, you're invited into faithfulness, right?
21:25
SPEAKER_00: How do I steward what has been given to me in the season that I'm in?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
21:32
SPEAKER_00: And so much of life I think comes back to that right there.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And how can I not just passively be faithful?
21:41
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's the mistake that a lot of people make.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Cool, okay, so I'm just going to wait.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: But it's not just about waiting.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: It's about waiting well.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes it's like, cool, when given the opportunity, that's when I'll do it.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Like I see that a lot in youth ministry, people who want to be a youth pastor.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so when I get the title and when I get the position,
22:04
SPEAKER_00: That is when I am going to be wholehearted.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: But I think wholehearted is what God requires of us in every aspect of life.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: And wholehearted is how you live the best life when your heart is fully in it.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: So for me,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: just using youth ministry as an example,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: I got clued in probably a few years before I became a youth pastor
22:28
SPEAKER_00: that God wanted me to move in that direction, right?
22:32
SPEAKER_00: I said earlier, I was 18 when I was like, I want to be a youth pastor.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Right?
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And in that, what it meant to be faithful, I felt was to serve in youth.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: So to volunteer, to be present, to be pastoring.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: But then also to be,
22:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I've always had this passion for words, packaging up words, arranging words.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Words as a tool to communicate something that matters.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And so I remember in California,
23:05
SPEAKER_00: obviously I was working full time at A21,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: but I had this burning desire to preach the gospel.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: No outlet, no opportunity per se to preach the gospel.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: But I just began, Matt, to just write messages.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
23:24
SPEAKER_00: The Bible calls it the labor of preaching.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: To actually press in and go,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: no, but I want to write messages even if I don't see an outlet for it.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I think that is part of timing and that is part of waiting.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
23:42
SPEAKER_00: To actually just ask the question,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: In every season,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: we can ask this question,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: what does it mean to be faithful with what I have been given,
23:52
SPEAKER_00: what I have been entrusted?
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is part of the art of doing seasons well with God.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And I also think that is how you steward something well to the very end of the season.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: It was how I feel like God enrolled me into the school of timing And part of
24:15
SPEAKER_00: that was, I am not going to do my final months at A21 half-hearted.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm going to give it 150%.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like in that season that we knew each other,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: God was teaching me, do not live one foot out the door.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Like be wholehearted.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Even when there's things that you feel like you haven't seen the fulfillment of it
24:45
SPEAKER_00: or you're waiting for things, I think the invitation is forever be wholehearted.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: That's such an encouragement to me in this season
24:55
SPEAKER_01: where like there's new things starting and there's the temptation to like hedge bets
25:04
SPEAKER_01: and like Go other places for security or whatever that looks like.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: And instead of like leaning into the uncomfortability and the adventure,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: so much of life I feel like is the perspective taking of like,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: do I view this as like a bad thing or a good thing?
25:26
SPEAKER_01: And so like even the perspective of like,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: oh, this is an adventure that God has allowed me to go on.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: And this journey is the It's the point.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not like the destination.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like the fruition.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Like all the fruition happens in the gardening, so to speak.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Like you spend all the time tilling the soil and watering the plants and
25:49
SPEAKER_01: then like That's how you end up growing.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: But that wholeheartedness is like,
25:55
SPEAKER_01: so that's so convicting to me too, where it's like, man, they're in the past.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And like,
26:00
SPEAKER_01: even the temptation now is to like,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: not do things wholeheartedly because it's like,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: well, I don't know how it's going to work out.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: So like,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: I should be really careful about this thing or whatever,
26:10
SPEAKER_01: rather than just like, Yeah, like I firmly believe this is where I'm supposed to be.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And even if you're unsure about that,
26:17
SPEAKER_01: like how do you do that wholeheartedly in a way that allows for God to work
26:22
SPEAKER_01: through you rather than like your own kind of insecurity to like get the best
26:26
SPEAKER_01: of you?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious how, like,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: have you seen that exemplified well in someone in your sphere of influence
26:38
SPEAKER_01: that you're like,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: they're kind of a North Star for that type of productive faithfulness in that season
26:47
SPEAKER_01: of waiting?
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's such a good question.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Let me think about that.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, you know, we've talked about...
26:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, the season at A21 and my leaders in that context.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I definitely feel like every step of the way I've absolutely been,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, first of all, you look at the heroes of faith, right?
27:13
SPEAKER_00: The whole of faith.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: And you immediately go, okay, I'm in good company.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: So there's the ones that you glean from all throughout the scriptures,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: the Josephs,
27:24
SPEAKER_00: the Daniels,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: the Davids,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: and you just realize, okay, there actually is The beauty and the process.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: I think my pastors here in Nashville, like Henry and Alex, they have modeled that.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And so I have seen that modeled in my current pastors.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Henry and Alex.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: But honestly, a lot of people from afar, I think this is a pattern because it's hardwired.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I think God just has this hardwired process.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: It's what Dallas Willard says, like life is far less about what you do and who you become.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: And the process of becoming is not overnight.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: And we know this.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: We can know it in theory, but then I think we also learn it in life.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: When we listen to our life and we look at our life in reverse,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: sometimes things take longer than we expect or things are harder than we expect.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Yet, I think one of the greatest truths that I've Laid a hold of is that God is trustworthy.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: I made that decision as a teenager.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: He's trustworthy.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: And whatever his timing looks like, whatever his process looks like, I'm all in.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: But it's like we've already talked about it a little bit.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: I think I just have such a determination.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to spend my life absent from the present because I'm just waiting for
29:03
SPEAKER_00: the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: I think so much of the key to life is Is actually to show up in your present.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And as you were saying, Matt,
29:13
SPEAKER_00: to embrace the journey,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: like, and embrace this whole idea that like, man, I don't understand everything.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Most things I'm going to understand when I look back.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just going to trust that paint is hitting the canvas.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And we're just we're just going,
29:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: whether it's going to be like a Jackson Pollock or like a Like a Picasso kind
29:40
SPEAKER_01: of painting or something like the Masters or whatever.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, yeah, whatever painting you're ending up with is still going to be beautiful.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fascinating to think through kind of like being in the moment and
29:59
SPEAKER_01: then looking to other people and seeing what they're doing well.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Are there rituals that You focus on and have kind of built over time to help along
30:13
SPEAKER_01: that process of becoming,
30:15
SPEAKER_01: whether it's like I wake up at a certain time and I like light some candles
30:18
SPEAKER_01: and I journal and read my Bible or whatever.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Or is there something that is like specific that's been super helpful for you in
30:27
SPEAKER_01: that to kind of ground yourself and be present,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: but then also have that kind of excitement for the adventure that you're on?
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Bro, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: I think we live in a world where we are conditioned to be forever dissatisfied, right?
30:46
SPEAKER_00: So we live in the scarcity world, never enough, never enough.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't have enough time.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't have enough money.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't have enough friends.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't have enough resource.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, And that way of thinking pulls you away from,
31:00
SPEAKER_00: I think, the contentment that really is contentment and joy that is available to us.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: And so I do think it takes discipline.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: If all of your outlets,
31:14
SPEAKER_00: all of the voices in your life contribute to that narrative,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: then that's the narrative you're going to believe and that's the life
31:23
SPEAKER_00: that you're going to live.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: And so I do think you need You need to have practices,
31:28
SPEAKER_00: disciplines,
31:29
SPEAKER_00: people around you,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: community around you that almost reform or recondition or renew those ways
31:38
SPEAKER_00: of thinking.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: For me personally, there's nothing that does that more than time with God, the scriptures.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
31:48
SPEAKER_00: I think that's massive for me.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Gratitude is absolutely vital.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Gratitude is, I think, some of the greatest buoyancy in life.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
32:00
SPEAKER_00: When you are grateful, you're not thinking about what you lack.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: You're thinking about what you have.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: And I just think, I know for me, I've been particularly grateful this week for whatever reason.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have to reach for it.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: Other times it's right there.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I would say if anything,
32:25
SPEAKER_00: my practice is always how do I practice being the most present,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: you know, like, and that involves.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: I think,
32:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: I know like a phone,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: it involves putting the phone away more often than not,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: it involves like, okay, we're going last night and we're at our best friend's house.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Like we,
32:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give myself to this moment,
32:52
SPEAKER_00: you know, like,
32:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think there is like absolute beauty in that,
32:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:59
SPEAKER_00: like it's it's beauty in the simplicity of just I'm going to fight,
33:04
SPEAKER_00: fight, fight, fight, fight to be present.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: And fight to be grateful.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like the thing that the Psalmists always say, help me to know the measure of my days.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Help me to understand the brevity of my life.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think I want to always challenge myself to think that way.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: My kids are four and two and I'm just like,
33:31
SPEAKER_00: man, I'm going to suck the marrow Out of this moment in life.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Because they're not going to be foreign to forever.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And I have been given agency and power to enjoy this moment.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I'm going to do.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think that helps a ton.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I developed, I preached the message to our students.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: This was probably a year and a half ago.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: And I called it Content Dreamers.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:03
SPEAKER_00: and this whole idea that it's actually possible to be content right where you are,
34:09
SPEAKER_00: but then also to dream with God for a brighter, better future.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
34:15
SPEAKER_00: They're not at odds with one another.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: I think that's like the beautiful adventure of following Jesus is like there are
34:24
SPEAKER_01: so many paradoxes in The Bible seemingly paradoxes where it's like
34:30
SPEAKER_01: beyond our comprehension.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And so I think like a lot of people just take it at face value and it's like,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: well, yeah, that's a load of phooey and I'm going to not listen to that.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: But I think the deeper understanding of that is like,
34:43
SPEAKER_01: well, yeah, like the Trinity, what's that about?
34:46
SPEAKER_01: Like my simple brain cannot Understand that or like God's sovereignty
34:53
SPEAKER_01: and also like our free will,
34:55
SPEAKER_01: like these huge questions that everybody has been asking and challenging and trying
35:00
SPEAKER_01: to answer forever.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: But I think in the same way,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: it feels like a lot of what you're talking about is in that paradox of like,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: how do I dream big?
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Almost like what I think we were talking about with people like Chris and Nick
35:16
SPEAKER_01: that like,
35:17
SPEAKER_01: they have this huge dream and vision that's this really challenging obstacle
35:21
SPEAKER_01: that is going to take a long time to Come to fruition and have resolution,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: but also at the same time,
35:29
SPEAKER_01: like the belief that like, no,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: they're content and there's discontentment in one sense because they're like,
35:37
SPEAKER_01: I want to see this come to fruition and I want to resolve this thing.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: But on the other side,
35:42
SPEAKER_01: they're like present and they're contented in like the work that they're doing.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: It just feels like there's so many paradoxes,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: seemingly paradoxes where it's like, Man,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: that is just like,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: it's really hard for me to wrestle with the idea of like content in this and
35:56
SPEAKER_01: then enoughness.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, I, I always think of like the adage of like,
36:02
SPEAKER_01: uh, someone talking to a rich person and they're like, well, how much is enough?
36:05
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like a little bit more, um, of like, how do you, yeah.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: How do you like sit in where you're at?
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and those practices that you're talking about,
36:18
SPEAKER_01: I think are such a, yeah,
36:19
SPEAKER_01: gratitude and,
36:20
SPEAKER_01: and The presentness and even the challenge of that in parenthood
36:28
SPEAKER_01: where it is like they grow so fast and before you know it, I mean,
36:32
SPEAKER_01: I've seen that in our own journey as parents where you're kind of looking down
36:40
SPEAKER_01: and working and then you look up and it's like,
36:42
SPEAKER_01: oh, wow, you're like sitting at the table without Like you're in a big girl seat.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: You're not, you're not a high chair or whatever anymore.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh,
36:51
SPEAKER_01: there's a,
36:51
SPEAKER_01: there's a morning to that where it's like,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: I miss kind of the little, the little person version of you doing this thing.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Obviously you're still so young, but, um, yeah,
37:01
SPEAKER_01: I think, oh man,
37:02
SPEAKER_01: there's so much good stuff that you're, you're just thrown out there
37:06
SPEAKER_00: for free.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, along the lines of,
37:12
SPEAKER_01: of parenting,
37:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious kind of how, Like,
37:16
SPEAKER_01: are there because I'm we're very much in the beginning season of this journey
37:21
SPEAKER_01: of parenting.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Are there practical exercises that you guys do with the kids that kind of help
37:29
SPEAKER_01: that groundedness and that presentness as a family?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like in the.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Crazy connectedness that we have as a culture,
37:40
SPEAKER_01: just being on our phones,
37:41
SPEAKER_01: being able to text and call people like the beauty of that,
37:43
SPEAKER_01: but then also the tension of living in that.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: How do you guys remain present as a family with like family time and stuff like that?
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a beautiful question, mate.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: I honestly do think youth ministry helped me a lot with that.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Just in the sense that I feel like,
38:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:06
SPEAKER_00: early on,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: because naturally as a youth pastor you're spending time with,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: you're doing a lot of one-on-ones,
38:13
SPEAKER_00: a lot of coffees,
38:14
SPEAKER_00: a lot of lunches, a lot of late night Waffle House hangs and things like that.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, good old Waffle House.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not something we have around here.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's fair.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: It's a real Southern thing.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: I put myself in a teenager's shoes.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to feel like I am competing for Josh's attention.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to feel like there's another thing,
38:42
SPEAKER_00: there's a device upside down on the table or front facing on the table that
38:47
SPEAKER_00: at any moment is going to, it's this value thing.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: If I am talking to a student and then I'm just like,
38:54
SPEAKER_00: oh, hang on, I just got to text this person back.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: It's basically saying my priority in this moment has shifted from you to this phone.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: It'll come back to you at some point, but you know what I mean?
39:07
SPEAKER_00: And of course, that translates into my little ones.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: You know,
39:11
SPEAKER_00: like there's this like I think this feeling of like I would just hate for Duke
39:17
SPEAKER_00: and Sequoia to look back and go,
39:18
SPEAKER_00: yeah, dad's always on his phone or dad's always playing.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: We get second best or third best or fourth best from my dad.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Am I perfect at this?
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not,
39:32
SPEAKER_00: but I do think me and Kayla do our very best to kind Don't be like,
39:37
SPEAKER_00: okay, when we are with you guys, we are with you guys.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: If we need to take turns,
39:44
SPEAKER_00: if Kayla needs to knock out some things,
39:47
SPEAKER_00: but whoever's with them,
39:48
SPEAKER_00: we want them not to be scrolling distracted,
39:51
SPEAKER_00: but it's just like,
39:52
SPEAKER_00: We want to actually – and like I said,
39:54
SPEAKER_00: it's just like I think so much of it is like I want to actually experience all
40:00
SPEAKER_00: that there is in this.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: But then also I think more
40:03
SPEAKER_00: and more I've realized how much parenting – It's active rather than passive.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: It takes intentionality.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: There's a base level of just existing next to my kids, but there's so much more.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: I could be teaching them stuff.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: I can be reading them books.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: I can be singing them songs.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: We can be creating and crafting and And basically fanning into flame,
40:30
SPEAKER_00: like the imagination that they have, like, you know, all of that stuff.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And so I think intentionality is like the really big word.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: I think again,
40:41
SPEAKER_00: having done youth ministry, bro, I mean,
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Me and Kayla are like,
40:45
SPEAKER_00: man, we're going to keep these two away from devices as long as we can.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Just personally, we are not going to be the iPad parents.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: They are not going to have an iPad other than maybe a plane.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: But you will never see us at a restaurant and they're on their iPad.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
41:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, no, they're going to be present with us and we're going to teach them.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: To be present with us and to, you know, technology is a gift, movies, that sort of thing.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: It's a gift, but there's a time and a place.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I totally understand and can empathize with the parents that are like,
41:23
SPEAKER_01: I just need a break.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And here's like a way to get you to have attention on something else.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, just the
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Even my own experience working in youth ministry and stuff,
41:37
SPEAKER_01: it becomes so apparent how incredibly detrimental.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
41:43
SPEAKER_01: there's so many studies around this and equating it to being worse than smoking
41:49
SPEAKER_01: and all these things that people are very against now.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: But it's just funny to see how culture...
41:55
SPEAKER_01: At one point, doctors were selling cigarettes to people.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: So it's just having the discernment to work through that,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: but then also understanding that, yeah, what are the ways that you can...
42:09
SPEAKER_01: Kind of bring them into the adventure.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Are there any like crafts or specific like exercises you like doing with them
42:18
SPEAKER_01: that like gets them super excited?
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, great question, man.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly,
42:24
SPEAKER_00: anything outdoors,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: hey, you know, so I think part of the journey is like learning your kids.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: So like what do they love doing?
42:30
SPEAKER_00: So Duke, he's fine.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: If he has a ball in his hands to throw or to kick, he's down.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, he's an athlete.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, Sequoia loves like drawing and crafting, but both of them just love being outdoors.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: And I so get it.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, first of all, parenting, you know, it's no joke.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think right away what I learned is that it exposes the selfishness.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, and that thing of just like, just give me a moment.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I just need a moment.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
43:00
SPEAKER_00: But what we're doing is the problem is with everything we've been talking about
43:06
SPEAKER_00: in this whole context of just give me a moment, you give them an addiction.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: And I just think, well,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: actually,
43:17
SPEAKER_00: there are far more creative ways that people have been doing for decades and decades
43:21
SPEAKER_00: and decades that is actually healthy.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to...
43:26
SPEAKER_00: It's going to teach them the joy of boredom,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: the joy of using their imagination and coming up with things.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: So is it more effort on our part?
43:35
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: But personally, I have strong feelings about this.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm just like, man, out of a moment of I just need a moment, you can have a moment.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And I already see that.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: The older they get, the more they are looking for ways to entertain themselves.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: But I'm just so happy that it's not the drug of technology.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: The only way that I can...
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Get through a dinner is to watch something.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, guys, you know, there's so much more that will get you through a dinner.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I want you to enjoy the dinner and I want you to enjoy being with us.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you know what I mean?
44:17
SPEAKER_00: I think so much of parenting is long term.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: There's a short term remedy.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: But what about the long term ramifications?
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Matt, for me, I'm not just thinking two and four.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking when they're 10 and 12, are we having fun around the dinner table?
44:35
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
44:36
SPEAKER_00: Are we breaking bread together?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Are we talking about all the things we're grateful for?
44:41
SPEAKER_00: Or is it this quiet house where they just can't wait to get away from mom and dad
44:46
SPEAKER_00: so they can listen to something or watch something?
44:51
SPEAKER_00: Again, are we perfect?
44:53
SPEAKER_00: No, but I think...
44:55
SPEAKER_00: This is my sense.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: If you do not have strong convictions, the convictions will be set for you.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: If you do not have priorities set, priorities will be set for you.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Passive just doesn't work.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm passionate about that stuff.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: I think part of that is just because of a decade plus of working with teenagers.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: There are things that we can fight for.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: At a young age that in the long run are going to be so key.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: That reminds me of John Mark Comer talks about this idea of like,
45:36
SPEAKER_01: and I'm sure it's not an original idea to him,
45:39
SPEAKER_01: but even the idea of you,
45:42
SPEAKER_01: you are what you worship basically,
45:45
SPEAKER_01: or like even the, the secular version of like, you are what you eat.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Like if you're,
45:51
SPEAKER_01: if you're going to be consuming Uh,
45:53
SPEAKER_01: technology and dunes growing and all the,
45:56
SPEAKER_01: like that will shape you in a ton of different ways.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: And so, um,
46:01
SPEAKER_01: if you're going to be shaped by great conversation around the table,
46:04
SPEAKER_01: like there's nothing better than an amazing meal and an amazing conversation around
46:08
SPEAKER_01: the table.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm convinced that's like.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: One of the best things.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: And like,
46:12
SPEAKER_01: I think we're going to be doing that in eternity,
46:14
SPEAKER_01: like most of the time,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: like we'll have jobs or whatever,
46:17
SPEAKER_01: but then we'll like have amazing meals and like amazing conversations.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah,
46:25
SPEAKER_01: I just think about that a lot where it's like,
46:28
SPEAKER_01: and Shelby and I were just talking about that idea that you just mentioned
46:31
SPEAKER_01: of like parenting is so much of an investment in the future.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Like It's really, really hard in the moment.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: And it holds a mirror up to you in so many ways that are,
46:41
SPEAKER_01: I think, really beautiful for like your own sanctification.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's so challenging.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think it gets more challenging in different ways and less challenging
46:52
SPEAKER_01: in different ways as you as your kids grow up,
46:55
SPEAKER_01: at least from the conversations I've had with older parents and kids and stuff.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: But Yeah, it is such a journey of investment, I think.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh,
47:04
SPEAKER_01: if you're thinking that way,
47:06
SPEAKER_01: then like, yeah,
47:07
SPEAKER_01: it's painful to like put money,
47:09
SPEAKER_01: a little bit of money in the bank every single month or whatever
47:13
SPEAKER_01: that you will never see again.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: But in 20 years, it's going to be like a bigger chunk of change.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: So, like, what kind of investment do you want to make?
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Is it, like, the quiet table?
47:23
SPEAKER_01: Or is it the, like, yeah,
47:25
SPEAKER_01: we are present with each other and we're laughing and having adventures outside.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: And I'm surprised to hear that, is it Duke that's in love with balls and throwing them around?
47:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, there's no soccer happening?
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Because, like, that's, like, didn't you, don't you play a lot of soccer?
47:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, Yeah, yeah.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so Sequoia, she plays now.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: She's in a team.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: Duke is like one year off.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: So he'll be in there.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, like 100%.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to – I can do a better job at like fanning the flame of those things.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: But then there's also part of me that just goes,
48:04
SPEAKER_00: hey, when you're two, like is organized sport really going to work?
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: So, so, uh, Duke is kicking the ball around, but like there's no, okay, good, good.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: He's playing soccer.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: He's just not like on a team playing soccer.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I have lots of strong opinions about, um,
48:25
SPEAKER_01: parents that like start the career of their children,
48:29
SPEAKER_01: um, before like their kid is even like done doing anything.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like, Yeah.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Setting them up for,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: not that there's, well,
48:38
SPEAKER_01: I kind of believe that there's something wrong with it,
48:40
SPEAKER_01: but the idea of just like, oh, well,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: you're going to like play this sport and become a professional at it by
48:46
SPEAKER_01: the time you're like 12.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, just let them breathe, let them use their imagination.
48:51
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: And Matt,
48:53
SPEAKER_00: that goes into,
48:54
SPEAKER_00: we've been talking about this a little bit,
48:55
SPEAKER_00: but like, Parenting just takes conviction and intentionality.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: I think too many parents,
49:02
SPEAKER_00: and I understand,
49:03
SPEAKER_00: I have compassion for this,
49:04
SPEAKER_00: I understand how it happens,
49:06
SPEAKER_00: but too many people just do what you're quote-unquote meant to do.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: So not even like what you feel like suits your child,
49:16
SPEAKER_00: but it's almost just like, well, this is what we do.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: We sign them up.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: First sign of using a ball, well, we better sign them up for this and this and this and this.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: I think you got to just, they're not inherently bad.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: I love team sports.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: I was developed so much as in team sports, but I think timing is important.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
49:35
SPEAKER_00: just not being driven by this like social pressure of like,
49:40
SPEAKER_00: this is, you know, the question has to be, do you have conviction about this?
49:45
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you actually believe that this is going to be really good for your child?
49:53
SPEAKER_00: Or is it just, well, I'm following, following the crowd.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm following, doing what I meant to do, you know?
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, As I end these conversations,
50:05
SPEAKER_01: I ask the guest that I have on for a question for the next guest.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: And so the last guest asked this question of you, not knowing who's going to be on.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: But he asks, what is one thing that makes your heart say yes?
50:26
SPEAKER_01: Interpret that as you will.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: What is one thing that makes your heart say yes?
50:39
SPEAKER_00: So many things, right?
50:41
SPEAKER_00: I feel very alive.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: I
50:46
SPEAKER_00: would say one of the things is a really, really great conversation.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of what you were talking about earlier.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of our time in heaven is going to be breaking bread,
51:03
SPEAKER_00: sitting around tables and having conversations.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that like fills my soul is like getting to the end of
51:15
SPEAKER_00: a night where we just had
51:17
SPEAKER_00: a freaking great conversation you know what I mean just like yes like this is
51:24
SPEAKER_00: and I think it's yes in the sense that like we just did what we were meant to do
51:29
SPEAKER_00: as people we challenged each other we encouraged each other we laughed together we
51:36
SPEAKER_00: cried together we You know, joked together.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: We spent time, you know what I mean?
51:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's so simple,
51:45
SPEAKER_00: but just like a great conversation makes me feel utterly human
51:51
SPEAKER_00: and utterly like this is what we're meant to do.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is the community that I think our world needs more and more and more.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't have said that better myself.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: I resonate with that so deeply.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a question for our next guest?
52:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, a question for the next guest would be...
52:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me think.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: What is one habit that you know you need that you don't yet have?
52:38
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that's really good.
52:41
SPEAKER_01: This is the part that I really enjoy is that I don't have to think about it
52:48
SPEAKER_01: or answer it,
52:49
SPEAKER_01: but I will be thinking about this because I can just punt it to the next guest.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: And I also love asking questions that I wouldn't want to answer myself
53:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think because you're asking it,
53:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming you've spent time thinking about it on some level.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you always are, right?
53:13
SPEAKER_00: You always are thinking about the space between who you are and who you want to be,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: where you are, where you want to be.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: And habits are a big part of the process of how you get there.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: That is such a good question.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm super curious to see.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: It's either going to be one of two people.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm so curious to see how they'll answer that.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait, man.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for taking the time, Josh.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: And what a joy it's been to kind of see your life in the distance and have
53:46
SPEAKER_01: that initial kind of relationship foundation building 11 years ago.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: Dang.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: Old man.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: I know, man.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: Hey, older in years, but younger at heart.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: That's the goal, right?
54:01
SPEAKER_01: I feel that spiritually.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I feel that physically.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think I agree with what people say about like life gets better as you get older.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are like cynical about like, oh, my college days were great.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, really?
54:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, man, like they were awesome.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: But I think life's pretty awesome in a lot of ways now.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: There's some more independence and some different, uh, some,
54:29
SPEAKER_01: some wisdom,
54:30
SPEAKER_01: some no gray hairs are happening yet,
54:33
SPEAKER_01: but
54:34
SPEAKER_00: with my biggest
54:34
SPEAKER_01: gripe with, uh,
54:36
SPEAKER_01: with life, my,
54:37
SPEAKER_01: one of my uncles has like the most beautiful,
54:39
SPEAKER_01: like white hair and he got it when he was like 30.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't have one single white hair and I'm going to be 30 in a couple of weeks.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what's going on?
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, come on, man.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: I've got a few.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: And I delight in them, man.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they can take their time.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be fully gray tomorrow, but you know what I mean?
55:03
SPEAKER_01: I would be happy being fully,
55:05
SPEAKER_01: like, I think there's just people look at you differently, you know?
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: There's a, oh, that guy knows what he's doing.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Or he's like, he's been through a lot.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: His hair is gray.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
55:16
SPEAKER_01: What verse is it that's like the crown of wisdom?
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Is it like gray hair?
55:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm terribly paraphrasing that.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's something like that, though.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and honestly, it's funny.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: I feel like,
55:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:34
SPEAKER_00: when you're in youth ministry,
55:36
SPEAKER_00: early 20s,
55:37
SPEAKER_00: you just,
55:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:38
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I cared so much about,
55:40
SPEAKER_00: maybe too much about, like, Relevancy and all of this stuff.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, no,
55:47
SPEAKER_00: I think I've gotten to a
55:48
SPEAKER_01: point where maybe I've just cared less about
55:50
SPEAKER_00: that sort
55:50
SPEAKER_00: of stuff.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, I mean, I'm 33.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: 33 is young.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: It's not young to an 18-year-old, but it's young in the scheme of life.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I just,
56:02
SPEAKER_00: the older I get,
56:03
SPEAKER_00: the more I'm just like,
56:04
SPEAKER_00: I, you know, maybe it's that perspective we talked a lot about today.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, I just, wherever I am, that's where I want to be.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to embrace that.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And so, but anyway, man, thanks.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for, what was that?
56:18
SPEAKER_01: I think that's rare.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't think a lot of people think that way.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: Which is,
56:21
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the reasons that I'm just so like intrigued and drawn to you as
56:25
SPEAKER_01: a person is because of Yeah, I
56:30
SPEAKER_00: mean, don't you think it just robs people?
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Like the amount of people that I meet, they turn 20.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm old and I'm just like, are you kidding me?
56:38
SPEAKER_00: Like what a tragedy that you would be convinced of your,
56:43
SPEAKER_00: you know, like because the implication is I've missed something.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: Like now the best days are over.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, it's actually just a complete lie.
56:55
SPEAKER_00: I from the culture and the day that we live in.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm passionate about that, Matt.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, guys, again, it's what we've talked about today.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: There is so much that will pull you away from gratitude, contentment, satisfaction.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
57:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like,
57:11
SPEAKER_00: what a tragedy to actually be in a good spot,
57:14
SPEAKER_00: a beautiful spot, because God says it's beautiful, but you despise it.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: And you just think, you know, like you dwell on Basically, you operate off lies.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: So come on, man.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: I want to be the guy that's like 60 and like stoked.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, yeah, I'm 60 and I own that.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, Matt, it's been a pleasure, man.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for your friendship, your kindness, your curiosity.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, grateful to have been on this.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm so grateful for our time and just your generosity and spending time away
57:54
SPEAKER_01: from family, especially after a lot of travel and stuff means a lot, man.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: All good, mate.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all good.
58:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, brother.